Ford dismisses "hype" generated by Toyota's Hybrid

[Hamico]

Good onya Ford......

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53547&vf=12

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Ford says hybrid not the only option
Ian Porter, The Sydney Morning Herald, June 13, 2008

Ford has dismissed the hype generated by Toyota's decision to build a hybrid version of the Camry in Australia. It says LPG and diesel are more sensible options.

Ford Australia has shrugged off this week's hysteria about hybrid drivetrains, pointing out it already offers several alternatives to petrol engines.

The company made LPG Falcons and had diesel engines in its European cars, and was expanding its range of small-capacity, high-output petrol engines, sales and marketing director Mark Winslow said.

There were still question marks over the appeal of hybrids to fleet buyers, who still dominated the market in the medium and large sectors, Mr Winslow said.

The key figure in any corporate-leasing deal was the residual value of the car at the end of the lease, he said.

"If a company (fleet) is going to go hybrid, what residual value is the fleet management organisation going to put on a hybrid after three years?" he said at Ford's monthly sales briefing.

"Who will be the customer for a three-year-old hybrid?"

He acknowledged that the hybrid manufacturers said the batteries would last 200,000 kilometres and would not be expensive to replace.

"Is the used-car buyer going to say, yes, I'll go with that, or are they going to jump the other way and look for an Egas Falcon?"

Mr Winslow said the recent petrol price rises had transformed the residual values of Ford's Egas Falcon, which uses liquefied petroleum gas for fuel.

He said that, not long ago, a used Egas Falcon was worth $1000 less than a similar petrol Falcon. "In the last two years, that has changed. A BF Falcon will now, on average, bring $2500 or $2600 more if it has Egas."

In the year before the release of the FG Falcon this month, 15% of sedans were Egas, 41% of station wagons and 37% of utilities.

Mr Winslow said that, based on a distance of 25,000 kilometres a year, an Egas Falcon was $350 cheaper to run than a Toyota Corolla. And emissions for an Egas car were 4% less than a petrol model.

He said it had taken 10 years for the LPG Falcon to gain ready public acceptance.

"Are people going to think clearly about hybrid cars from the start or will there be a similar gestation period, with concerns over the cost of the batteries, the disposal of batteries, and whether they will be worth anything when bought as a used car?" he said.

"Hybrid is not the only alternative technology."

.

[Big_Valven]

I think for a hybrid they will sell by the bucketload because consumers automatically think they will do 1l/100km and save the planet, just like they think a V8 can club koalas to death. Stupid consumers.

[Venom XR]

It's taken 10 years for ready public acceptance of dedicated LPG Falcons because most people thought the only way to get one was to buy it in yellow with a taxi sign on the roof! Piss poor marketing is the key to why it's never taken off. When petrol hit $1, gas was what, 30c? They didn't market it then, and they sure as hell don't market it properly now either, except for the occasional remark in news stories like these.

[lowriding]

I'd say its never taken off because its pretty crappy to be honest .If Ford are going to push LPG at the very least they will need to upgrade theyre LPG from the ancient and inefficient mixer style setup to something more modern -at least a direct inject like the factory commodore setup. The Egas Falcon for those that have driven them are terrible devices ,gutless and unreliable . The NSW police who have to drive them absolutely hate them and most taxi operators also still much prefer to take a normal Falcon and privately convert it to dual fuel . I agree about the dubious hybrid benefits but its a world away better the the Ford factory gas and LPG in general has many disadvantages too.

regards

[Marco]

The company made LPG Falcons and had diesel engines in its European cars, and was expanding its range of small-capacity, high-output petrol engines, sales and marketing director Mark Winslow said.

There were still question marks over the appeal of hybrids to fleet buyers, who still dominated the market in the medium and large sectors, Mr Winslow said.

The key figure in any corporate-leasing deal was the residual value of the car at the end of the lease, he said.

"If a company (fleet) is going to go hybrid, what residual value is the fleet management organisation going to put on a hybrid after three years?" he said at Ford's monthly sales briefing.

"Who will be the customer for a three-year-old hybrid?"

Talk about having your head in the sand. The customer for a three year old hybrid will be someone who wants to save on fuel costs but doesn't want to shell out for a new one, just like the customer for a three year old Falcon is someone who wants a Falcon but doesn't want to shell out for a new one (and why would you, when a three year old one costs about a third the price at the ex-Govt auctions?). The resale value on hybrids will be excellent because everyone will want one as petrol prices climb ever higher.

It's laughable that Ford is bringing resale value into the argument when the Falcon has just about the worst resale value of anything on the market and plenty of fleets have been burnt buying them.

Ford totally missed an opportunity to sell its LPG Falcon and sell it hard. Now it's trying to make up for that by rubbishing those car companies that have some idea how to market and sell cars.

[FunkyPig]

I agree with what Ford says in that article. Ford don't have a hybrid system that can bolt into the Falcon without major development/investment, while Holden do (that used in large SUVs in the US).

So in 2010 Holden will bring out a hybrid Commodore and milk it for every marketing dollar they can. But they surely won't make any money on it, but the rub off effect on the VE range will pay for it.

Similarly Toyota have Hybrid Camry's in production in the US and Japan now, so its a matter of shipping the drivetrain from Japan for fitment, easy for them and then there's marketing advantages, fleet sales too.

The FG I6 was upgraded while the egas version remains as in BF. This is very disapointing. But as commented on, Ford should be marketing that Egas as much as they can.

Can you imagine a 200kW large car that can be filled up for less than a Barina? Jesus Ford wake up before its too late!

So you drive for 25,000kms a year in an FG egas and its cheaper to run than a Prius? Why the hell isn't THAT in billboards around the country Ford??

[Ghia351]

I'd say its never taken off because its pretty crappy to be honest .If Ford are going to push LPG at the very least they will need to upgrade theyre LPG from the ancient and inefficient mixer style setup to something more modern -at least a direct inject like the factory commodore setup. The Egas Falcon for those that have driven them are terrible devices ,gutless and unreliable . The NSW police who have to drive them absolutely hate them and most taxi operators also still much prefer to take a normal Falcon and privately convert it to dual fuel . I agree about the dubious hybrid benefits but its a world away better the the Ford factory gas and LPG in general has many disadvantages too.

regardsI don't think Holden's duel fuel setup is selling in anywhere the same percentage of overall Commodore sales and it's a superior system so what does that say? Ford have been trialling a LPG liquid injection setup which is superior to vapour injection and yet for some reason, rumoured to be supplier legal disputes over royalty's/patents involving a patent holder/Boral/Vialle,..it's been held back since BF. Now would be an excellent time to work doubly hard on resolving this if it is indeed the issue.

[payaya]

Replacing the batts costs 4k+ how is that not expensive??

[lowriding]

I don't think Holden's duel fuel setup is selling in anywhere the same percentage of overall Commodore sales and it's a superior system so what does that say? Ford have been trialling a LPG liquid injection setup which is superior to vapour injection and yet for some reason, rumoured to be supplier legal disputes over royalty's/patents involving a patent holder/Boral/Vialle,..it's been held back since BF. Now would be an excellent time to work doubly hard on resolving this if it is indeed the issue.

Agreed ,and yeah Holden aren't selling many lpg comodes at all, they are even sillier - they have got a decent system but they dont want to know about it and most fleets dont even know it exists . It will be quietly put aside . If Ford seriously want to back LPG as their horse that's fine ,they would have a market for it imo but what do they want if they put no dollars towards it and at present are offering the worst system on the market ? If they want to do LPG ,they need to commit to it ,put bucks behind it and do it properly as the current E-gas Falcon is considered a joke .

regards

[vecommo]

Is it just me or are Ford Australia the biggest hypocrites on the face of this earth? I am constantly reading press releases where they are critisizing their competitors in one way or another.... They got stuck into Holden over a variety of things, they arrogantly proclaimed that the VE was no match for the FG and the FG would outsell it, now they are getting stuck into Toyota.

I haven't heard Holden or any other manufacturer critisizing Toyota's hybrid plan, yet Ford are quick to jump in and give us their pathetic views.

I find it very ironic, as Ford are in the worst position of all. They should just shut their mouths and concentrate on their own business.

[M&Ms]

Replacing the batts costs 4k+ how is that not expensive??

And we can also dispose of them the same way we do nuclear waste too...

[Ghia351]

Is it just me or are Ford Australia the biggest hypocrites on the face of this earth? I am constantly reading press releases where they are critisizing their competitors in one way or another.... They got stuck into Holden over a variety of things, they arrogantly proclaimed that the VE was no match for the FG and the FG would outsell it, now they are getting stuck into Toyota.

I haven't heard Holden or any other manufacturer critisizing Toyota's hybrid plan, yet Ford are quick to jump in and give us their pathetic views.

I find it very ironic, as Ford are in the worst position of all. They should just shut their mouths and concentrate on their own business.No it's just you :stick: Err, in 2 years time Ford will be the only local manufacturer to build here a local small car (ie Focus) plus any variant off this platform, a large car (Falcon) and suv (Territory) so it actually has the most diverse future based on current information. If Holden build a smaller car than Commodore It would be smart if it's Astra sized to keep enough gap on Commo....at least you're consistant.


Agreed ,and yeah Holden aren't selling many lpg comodes at all, they are even sillier - they have got a decent system but they dont want to know about it and most fleets dont even know it exists . It will be quietly put aside . If Ford seriously want to back LPG as their horse that's fine ,they would have a market for it imo but what do they want if they put no dollars towards it and at present are offering the worst system on the market ? If they want to do LPG ,they need to commit to it ,put bucks behind it and do it properly as the current E-gas Falcon is considered a joke .

regards..good or bad, it still outsells anything else..

[BA$TAD]

I think this article is quite good

http://www.caradvice.com.au/13586/hybrids-are-no-better-in-the-real-world-than-diesels/

showing that the extra costs of the Hybrid just don't give a big enough justification.
IMO it is all about being seen to be green.

[Excellent]

Thank god Ford has the guts to speak out and take the gloss off Toyota's hybrid public relations exercise. It's good to get some balance on Rudd's hybrid push. It's a darn shame Rudd granted Toyota money that not even the Toyota CEO saw coming. Very dissapointing to see my tax dollars go to Toyota.

I heard Toyota got a sizeable grant from the Japanese government when the built the Prius. So why is Rudd also doing something the Japanese government should be doing?

[BA$TAD]

I heard Toyota got a sizeable grant from the Japanese government when the built the Prius. So why is Rudd also doing something the Japanese government should be doing?
It is actually rumoured that the Japanese government subsidised 100% of the Prius R&D.

[chevypower]

diesels have been popular in Europe because it was always about it being cheaper to run, going back when diesels were dirty and gutless. It was not about the environment, it was about saving dollars. Then came Common Rail injection and about the 3rd version, saw diesels getting better performance than larger petrol engines, and with DPFs, became a lot cleaner, and people started to notice when European imports became popular. Australians always perceived diesels to be gutless and dirty for cars, so it wasn't just Americans and resisted following the Euro trend for years. There's still no diesel Falcon or Commodore. The push for diesel is still about saving dollars, and I am not sure it's a viable long-term solution. Diesel, hybrid, LPG, Ethanol a combination of those are short term solutions no matter how you cut it, so you could argue until the cows come home, that one of those four is superior to the others, but it makes very little difference in the long term. Right now, the best way to make a car would be electric with a small internal combustion engine for charging batteries only like the Chevy Volt, or this Fisker Karma http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/ large sedan which does 0-100 in 6 seconds and gets 150mpg (1.5 L/100km), and looks like a Maseratti Quottroporte. Now that impresses me! But instead of using a gasoline internal combustion engine, it should use a relatively inexpensive hydrogen internal combustion engine. (Even bi-fuel support would be good). Forcing the government and oil companies to support the hydrogen infrastructure. Then when fuel cells are cheap enough to manufacture, you can replace the H-ICE with a FC without serious changes to car architecture or fueling infrastructure.

[windsorace]

There seems to be alot of nuff nuffs on this forum! If the current price of a very small hybrid like prius is around the $40K mark what do we think a price for a hybrid commodore or camry will be, $50-60K. the premium to own a "fuel efficiant" ride is quite rediculous and yeah you can brag to all who want to listen that "its only using 4-5ltrs per hundred mate" but who gives a shite when the actual car could cost over $20K more than an equvilent car. Its going to take you 15-20 years to recoup your initial extra investment. That smart. In that time that it takes you to get your money back your still be up for cost for a new battery pack 4K+.:rofl:

For me I'd rather have at the moment a L.P.G. vehicle which is considerably less to buy, still have more grunt and according to the latest resale prices is attracting better resale prices than most identicle cars.

To all you G.M. knob polishers who say that your boys are leading the way, get your collective heads out your arses and smell some roses. At this point in time holden have done naff all in putting cheaper cars on the road, look at the current VE 6 - its the thirtiest car made in its segment. But being the champs you's all are you'll defend its integrity till death. Oh but we've got this coming and that coming, yeah hurry up uncle chev cousin Australia needs it now! All this Hybrid talk is giving me the sh#ts. :bawl:

[M&Ms]

I heard Toyota got a sizeable grant from the Japanese government when the built the Prius. So why is Rudd also doing something the Japanese government should be doing?

The answer is so blatantley obvious isn't it? Support the Japanese car manufacturers today with this grant, then go plead with their government tomorrow to stop whaling, trying to tell them "we helped you, now you listen to us!" Pity it ain't gonna work out for him by the looks of things on the news. But I'll just stop right here. :)

[Marco]

There seems to be alot of nuff nuffs on this forum! If the current price of a very small hybrid like prius is around the $40K mark what do we think a price for a hybrid commodore or camry will be, $50-60K.

No, it won't be because it's a new drivetrain in a same-old car, as opposed to the Prius which is a totally different car. When you design a whole new car to go with your powertrain, you've gotta get the development costs back somehow.

Or, to put it another way, why do you suppose the Prius costs many thousands more than the Civic Hybrid?

[seedyrom]

Australia has enough LPG to supply China for 200+ years.
Yess we sell it to them.

That should be enough of a reason to tell the Arabs to take their oil and F___ off.
LPG cars should be swarming this country - just as biodiesel/ethanol cars do in south america.
Instead its a marketing disaster. Petrol stations still just have the one LPG bowser, and if you've owned an LPG car (as I have), you'll know what a PITA filling up is.

I reckon Ford are correct with their thinking. They have built a car to run on Australia's (East Timors) biggest combustible fuel source.

Yet we want to bag them for that?

[Hamico]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/13594/toyota-downplays-plug-in-hybrid-benefits/

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Toyota downplays plug-in hybrid benefits
June 12th, 2008

While we are happy to admit that hybrids are not all they are cracked up to be, we have been patiently waiting for plug-in hybrids to save the day. But a top Toyota technology expert has today urged buyers to temper expectations for what plug-in hybrid vehicles can do.


The idea of a plug-in hybrid is such that it would be more practical than a traditional gasoline-electric hybrid. It can be recharged from electrical outlets and operate significantly longer on electric-only power than standard hybrids. Theoretically, plug-in hybrids can all but eliminate the need for weekly trips to the petrol station. Or can they?


Toyota’s Bill Reinert admitted today that in the real-world, plug-in hybrids could suffer and have their electric-power-only range reduced dramatically.

“When we see the (claims of) 100 mile-per-gallon (42 km-per-litre) stuff, not everybody’s going to get 100 miles per gallon,” Reinert said.

Even so, if plug-in hybrids can manage 60-80km a day on one electric charge alone, it would accommodate the majority of drivers that simply drive to and from work and reduce the fuel bill substantially.

Of course, we heard all these great numbers and ideas about hybrid cars too, and many consumers have been disappointed by the real-world fuel consumption figures of regular hybrids.

The battle is now on to see who can bring a working mass-produced plug-in hybrid to the market first. So far General Motors is planning to have the plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt by 2010 while arch rival, Toyota, is expected to have it’s plug-in Prius out by around the same time.

.

[vecommo]

No it's just you :stick: Err, in 2 years time Ford will be the only local manufacturer to build here a local small car (ie Focus) plus any variant off this platform, a large car (Falcon) and suv (Territory) so it actually has the most diverse future based on current information. If Holden build a smaller car than Commodore It would be smart if it's Astra sized to keep enough gap on Commo....at least you're consistant.

There's no point building them if they don't sell. The Falcon IMO is on borrowed time as it's sales figures are the worst in the nameplate's history and cannot sustain continued development and investment in this model.
The Territory isn't exactly doing well either... Ford's original target was 2500 per month...sure it did well when first released but for the last couple of years has been averaging about 1200 per month - half of it's original target. The way the price of fuel is going, it's certainly not going to get any better.
As for the Focus, sure they can build it here, but whether or not they make any decent money out of it is another story altogether. There is a reason why Australian manufacturers abandoned local small car manufacture and that is because it was simply not viable. Costs of local manufacture are high and it is an extremely competetive, price driven segment.
Adding another model to the production line also adds to complexity which in turn affects quality. Ford's build quality is woeful enough as it is, and it's only going to get worse.

As for my original post, I was in no way supporting Toyota or hybrid cars in general. I would not buy one in a million years, as I think they are a poor solution and a gimmick, for reasons others have already stated within this thread.
It just annoys me that Ford are always so quick to publicly critisize everyone else, while their own state of affairs are in a shambles.
I'd be willing to bet that if Ford Aus had hybrid technology readily available from its parent company, they'd be singing it's praises.

[Venom XR]

Australia has enough LPG to supply China for 200+ years.
Yess we sell it to them.



It's LNG, Liquid Natural Gas (primarily methane) that we export, LPG is a petroleum gas, mainly propane with a mix of butane. There are differences between the two, mainly that LNG requires low temps (-162C) to convert it to liqudified form, LPG only requires pressurisation.

However, given Australia is run on the back of the diesel industry in trucks and rail, LNG, or CNG, is a viable replacement for larger diesel powered vehicles, as LPG is for petrol vehicles. We could become a gas-powered country, except that gas is sold on the market the same as petrol is, and gas companies would always prefer to sell it on that market than sell it cheaper locally.

[lowriding]

There are two issues at play with alternative fuels - environmental and cost . LPG is cleaner therefore an alternative to hybrid on environmental grounds, but as i understand it LPG is still a by product of crude oil and we import much of it from the saudis or at least it is tied to international pricing hence why we've seen lpg prices rising along with petrol . The current cheaper price of LPG in Aus is mainly that its not taxed the same way petrol and diesel is although that is set to change as the previous fed govt has already earmarked progressive excises to be introduced to it . Given you burn ~20% extra lpg compared to petrol on any given trip,switching to LPG on a cost saving basis is becoming moot , it's only validity will be environmental .So is LPG a genuine alternative ?

regards

[Ghia351]

There's no point building them if they don't sell. The Falcon IMO is on borrowed time as it's sales figures are the worst in the nameplate's history and cannot sustain continued development and investment in this model.
The Territory isn't exactly doing well either... Ford's original target was 2500 per month...sure it did well when first released but for the last couple of years has been averaging about 1200 per month - half of it's original target. The way the price of fuel is going, it's certainly not going to get any better.
As for the Focus, sure they can build it here, but whether or not they make any decent money out of it is another story altogether. There is a reason why Australian manufacturers abandoned local small car manufacture and that is because it was simply not viable. Costs of local manufacture are high and it is an extremely competetive, price driven segment.
Adding another model to the production line also adds to complexity which in turn affects quality. Ford's build quality is woeful enough as it is, and it's only going to get worse.

As for my original post, I was in no way supporting Toyota or hybrid cars in general. I would not buy one in a million years, as I think they are a poor solution and a gimmick, for reasons others have already stated within this thread.
It just annoys me that Ford are always so quick to publicly critisize everyone else, while their own state of affairs are in a shambles.
I'd be willing to bet that if Ford Aus had hybrid technology readily available from its parent company, they'd be singing it's praises.Lucky for Ford it's only your opinion...as to investment costs maybe you fail to realise the following, taking a new US V6 crate motor saves a huge R&D cost for the Falcon and with the higher Aust dollar exchange rate makes it far more attractive. And finally with a global engine a huge block to exporting is lifted. Build here a Focus R&D'd in partnership with Ford Germany means again a far lower R&D budget requirement for Ford Oz and they have a "built in Aust" labelled small car that will accept any future powertrain that Europe develops including new diesels, hybrids, wind power...Also vehicles sharing the Focus' platform could be built here eg .small people mover S-max, sports suv's Kuga (?) etc...the Territory should have been updated last year at worst so it's original target can't be maintained and do you honestly believe any vehicle stays at the same sales level after 4 years with no visual change? The VE can't be meeting it's orginal local sales target, as did the Adventura, Crewman, one tonner (please don't go on about production simplicity, if it sold they would have kept building 'em to use your argument) as did BF Falcon, Magna (obviously)....lets not be too selective....

[CharlieDontSurf]

The ford focus deal relies purely on exports to other RHD countries. They will never sell enough locally to make it viable. As toyota realised when they jumped into bed with holden in the 90's and swapped commodores for corrolla's, it cost almost the same to make a large car and a small car. The profit margins are so much higher on a large car than a small one because the consumer is prepared to pay more

If ford cannot get an export deal for the falcon in this model cycle, It will be the last we ever see in this country reagrdless of how many they sell locally. That will mean the end of the territory too.Ford know it, the unions know it and anyone who works at geelong or broady is kidding themselves if they dont realise it

I would love to see ford continuing to make rwd sedans and suv's in Oz. But the realities of a global market cannot be hidden from particularly when head office is losing money and so is the local operation

[Ghia351]

The ford focus deal relies purely on exports to other RHD countries. They will never sell enough locally to make it viable. As toyota realised when they jumped into bed with holden in the 90's and swapped commodores for corrolla's, it cost almost the same to make a large car and a small car. The profit margins are so much higher on a large car than a small one because the consumer is prepared to pay more

If ford cannot get an export deal for the falcon in this model cycle, It will be the last we ever see in this country reagrdless of how many they sell locally. That will mean the end of the territory too.Ford know it, the unions know it and anyone who works at geelong or broady is kidding themselves if they dont realise it

I would love to see ford continuing to make rwd sedans and suv's in Oz. But the realities of a global market cannot be hidden from particularly when head office is losing money and so is the local operation
Don't forget whatever Ford Oz has lost, Holden unfortunately has lost upto 3 times more to date. Yes this included VE costs however Ford would have 1 year less of FG covered in the same period and some of the new R&D centre costs would have come from T6 (global ute program). The next round of disclosures should be interesting.

Whatever the profit levels on future Focus it has to be more profitable then importing any version and Ford won't sell at cost like Toyota and it's Corolla, just wait for Toyota's next profit figures and see how it seems very small in relation to total vehicle volume sold and market share. Broady's max capacity is about 120,000 so spread over 3 vehicle types and exports where there aren't any now or of any major consequence, eg South Africa which has given up the Focus production means it's not all doom and gloom.

Going back to the original topic, who is going to by a hybrid at the price premium over a diesel, petrol or LPG powered version of the same car...being green and affording to be green will be the biggest stumbling block...because the powertrain is irrelevent if you can't afford it.

[CharlieDontSurf]

Holden and ford need to make proper integrated duel fuels and dedicated lpg with the latest liquid injection technology. No loss of cargo space either(put both the lpg and petrol tank in the same spot with a reduced petrol capacity. It means spare tyres can stay whwere they are which doesnt impact load space particularly in wagons.

I read somewhere that the fleets prefer dedicated beacuse when drivers have the option of what to fill up on they use petrol. Its not their money and easier. private buyers would be more interested in duel fuel for range, fuel savings and interstate travelling where lpg may jot be available

Ford and holden can capitalise on peoplewho need a big car but may realiose they dont actua;lly need an SUV or AWD. If holden had a 7 seat sportwagon it would tempt alot of people I reckon

[RICHO]

Let me get this straight...I can become a born again greenie, and buy a plug in hybrid at a premium, that may or may not let me drive more than 80km between charges.

Then at night I can plug it into the mains and use a Sh#% load of electricity getting it recharged, using more on my household power bill lets say 8hrs of charge at a high draw down maybe 100kw/h per week depending on use @ about 13cents per kw/h or $13.00. Plus I get to pollute using coal powered power generation which would arguably be worse than filling my car on petrol.

I get a car that will depreciate like cheap new suit..Let's say 40% after 3 instead of being worth 60%. The extra 20% at a $40,000 purchase price "costing" me $8000 or about $2700 per year

Car cost of say $5000k more than a petrol equivalent or $500 of extra interest per year if under finance

So I'd be spending
- An extra $13 a week on electricity
- An extra $10 per week of interest on the loan
- Wearing an extra $50 per week in depreciation

All to save $30 of cash a week on my fuel bill

Yep....it'll be a winner for every financially illiterate greenie out there.
:doh:




http://www.caradvice.com.au/13594/toyota-downplays-plug-in-hybrid-benefits/

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Toyota downplays plug-in hybrid benefits
June 12th, 2008

While we are happy to admit that hybrids are not all they are cracked up to be, we have been patiently waiting for plug-in hybrids to save the day. But a top Toyota technology expert has today urged buyers to temper expectations for what plug-in hybrid vehicles can do.


The idea of a plug-in hybrid is such that it would be more practical than a traditional gasoline-electric hybrid. It can be recharged from electrical outlets and operate significantly longer on electric-only power than standard hybrids. Theoretically, plug-in hybrids can all but eliminate the need for weekly trips to the petrol station. Or can they?


Toyota’s Bill Reinert admitted today that in the real-world, plug-in hybrids could suffer and have their electric-power-only range reduced dramatically.

“When we see the (claims of) 100 mile-per-gallon (42 km-per-litre) stuff, not everybody’s going to get 100 miles per gallon,” Reinert said.

Even so, if plug-in hybrids can manage 60-80km a day on one electric charge alone, it would accommodate the majority of drivers that simply drive to and from work and reduce the fuel bill substantially.

Of course, we heard all these great numbers and ideas about hybrid cars too, and many consumers have been disappointed by the real-world fuel consumption figures of regular hybrids.

The battle is now on to see who can bring a working mass-produced plug-in hybrid to the market first. So far General Motors is planning to have the plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt by 2010 while arch rival, Toyota, is expected to have it’s plug-in Prius out by around the same time.

.

[Knight Phlier]

The government will be subsidising the Hybrid Camry by giving Toyota a grant to develop and build it here...

If the LPG falcon / the E85 commodore or any other "green" technologies are also available and just as good benefits to the environment and consumer then why should the government choose to only reward those companies looking at Hybrids?

I agree with Payaya - 4K to replace batteries every three years ! ouch!

I could fuel the clubby for 3 years with the coin saved from the batteries.

[Hamico]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F7F4155267B75BBDCA25746A0081F359
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Ford backs LPG over hybrid

Pro-gas: Craig Lowndes during the Ford LPG Challenge in 2006.

No hybrid Falcon as Ford Australia confirms its alternative-fuel strategy

By DAVID HASSALL 17 June 2008


A SENIOR Ford Australia executive has questioned the value of building a hybrid car locally, saying that Ford’s own dedicated LPG Falcon is a better proposition for the company and for consumers.

In the wake of Toyota’s announcement that it will build a hybrid Camry locally, Ford Australia sales and marketing chief Mark Winslow said last week that residual values would be a huge deterrent to private and non-government fleet buyers.

By contrast, Mr Winslow said that the Egas Falcon costs $350 a year less to run than a Toyota Corolla and now has a resale value that is even higher than a regular petrol-engined Falcon – something that has changed dramatically in the past two years.

And, seemingly putting to rest a suggestion that Ford Australia might consider developing a hybrid Falcon, Mr Winslow said that the company was satisfied with its commitment to E-Gas, more diesel-powered variants (including Falcon) and small-capacity turbocharged petrol engines.

“The question on hybrids is going to be, if a (fleet) company wants to go for a hybrid technology, what will the residual be? And who will the used car customer be? If the residual is low, then the business equation starts to get out of shape,” said Mr Winslow.

“It took people a while to get over the ‘bomb in the boot’ kind of thing (with LPG), so are people going to think more clearly about hybrid cars? Or is it going to take a gestation period, with concerns over the cost of the batteries, the disposal of batteries, the maintenance costs and whether it’s going to be worth anything as a used car when it’s six years old?

“A lot of it comes down to the non-private market and the used vehicle market. If a company is going to go hybrid, what residual value is the fleet management organisation going to then put on it after three years? Then they would have to ask, who’s going to buy it? Who will be the customer for a three-year-old hybrid?”

As for the government’s promise to buy Camry hybrids for its own fleets, Mr Winslow rhetorically asked if they would be additional sales or simply substitution for Toyotas that the government already buys.

“Hybrid is not the only alternative technology,” said Mr Winslow.

“Dedicated Egas is where we’ve been and where we will continue to be, our diesel line-up gets stronger all the time – we’ve got more diesels in our future – and, in the medium-term, the technology being developed within Ford in terms of low-displacement, high-output, very fuel-efficient petrol vehicles is clearly something we have the option of adopting here in Australia.

“We’ll continue to push E-Gas. We can always do more, particularly now that people have very much accepted it. We’re the only ones that make it down the line, so it’s a factory-fit job, and I believe the resale value is now beginning to reflect that.

“Egas has been a great success and, from a green point of view, our credentials based on Egas are very strong. With more diesels and low-displacement boosted engines, we think we’re very well-hedged as a motor company in terms of wherever the marketplace should go.”

Mr Winslow said that LPG has overcome the image problems it had five to 10 years ago and that consumers have now embraced E-Gas.

He said that, when Ford started selling LPG-equipped Falcons, their resale value was $1000 less than a normal Falcon. However, he said that a BF will now bring on average $2500 or $2600 more if it has E-Gas and that this shift has taken place in the past two years.

In 2007, 15 per cent of all Falcon sedans were ordered with E-Gas, but the take-up rate was even higher for wagons (41 per cent) and utes (37 per cent).

Ford Australia, perhaps surprisingly given the recent rises in fuel costs, does not expect demand for E-Gas Falcons to increase greatly – and has no plans to promote gas-powered Falcons specifically – but the company is ready to meet an increase in demand.

“When we did our planning years ago, we didn’t (foresee a bigger demand), but clearly petrol prices have moved since then,” said Mr Winslow.

“We’ve equipped ourselves so we can supply more E-Gas Falcons. Until we see the demand we wouldn’t move, but we wouldn’t need six or 12 months to turn around – it can happen very quickly.”

Ford has no plans to produce an Egas Focus when production of the small car starts here in 2011 because the diesel version has such good economy, but plans are still in place for a diesel-engined Falcon in 2010.

Mr Winslow admitted that Ford had been caught out by demand for diesel in the Mondeo range and has ordered more to meet a backlog of orders.

Supply started coming through in May – which helped Mondeo to its best month yet with 2011 (typo - was actually 565 sales) sales – but the back-orders are not expected to be fully cleared until August.

The success of the diesel Mondeo has also “given currency” to the argument for bringing the Mondeo wagon to Australia, Mr Winslow said.

.

[Road Warrior]

If the LPG falcon / the E85 commodore or any other "green" technologies are also available and just as good benefits to the environment and consumer then why should the government choose to only reward those companies looking at Hybrids?


Because they're a bunch of left wing wankers?

I work for a government department and most of the fleet cars in the car park here are Camrys. You can bet your bottom dollar that they will be moving to the Hybrid Camry come changeover time - Toyota is going to kill the pig with government fleet sales.

Ford isnt going to reinvest any more money in the current gas system because the I6 is being canned in 2010 and going to the V6 - they're probably going all out to get the V6 ready for a new gas system.

It would be good if the Egas system was reliable and the engine put out as much ponies as the petrol version. Then again you could go aftermarket which would be a better system but you'd lose your split fold rear seat and I got quoted $4,200 for the conversion :eek:

[Hamico]

I work for a government department and most of the fleet cars in the car park here are Camrys. You can bet your bottom dollar that they will be moving to the Hybrid Camry come changeover time - Toyota is going to kill the pig with government fleet sales.

It would be nice to know how Camry's and Corolla's are sold to private buyers now ?

The percentage of fleets sales would be close to Falcon's 85% and Commodore's 70%

Higher fleets sales has a negative effect on residual values and resale, this in turn puts off more private buyers as they lose too much on them after 2 years, so this must be having an effect on Camry and Corolla by now ?

If you were in the market for a small or medium size car, these 2 should be at the bottom of the list for private buyers, they rank of fleet :spew:

.

[muzza]

Holden and Ford need to adjust their game plan and soon - it's obvious that the big sedan market is drying up, fleet sales are drifting toward 4 cyl cars with perceived economy (the reality of Camry economy is nothing like 9.9L/100k) and the big Aussie sedan is arguably a bit too big - certainly too heavy with FG and VE sedans pushing 1700kg+.

The "Mid size" sedans are now as big as 10 yr old "Big" sedans and "small" cars are unbelievably good on inside room campared to 10 yrs ago; we've been supersized!:eyes:

Ford should have had a diesel territory out 2 yrs ago, as well as an LPG territory - that was a no-brainer.

Holden should have provided a DLPG Commodore with VE and a decent underfloor tank engineered in so no loss of boot space (spare tyre vertical on the side) - fleets would love it. Further down the track, they should look at either making a mid size sedan (Torana) or lightening the commodore by 200kg - save fuel and increase performance.

Hybrids are a step along the way, but Ford are right in a way that gas/electric drivetrains would be best in Oz - hyundai will be first on the market with that one next year with the Elantra.

[VX2VESS]

http://car-hydrogen.net/

need more of these

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/09/06/mazda-hydrogen-powered-rx-8-seen-outside-japan-for-first-time/

[chevypower]

http://car-hydrogen.net/

need more of these

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/09/06/mazda-hydrogen-powered-rx-8-seen-outside-japan-for-first-time/

I agree, I think H2 internal combustion engine would be nice to transition to fuel cells when they become viable. Make it a generator engine and have an electric drivetrain for maximum efficiency.
Also have a read about aluminium-air batteries. Seems to be a much better way than Li-ion/Li-Pol batteries. Only drawback, is you can't electrically re-charge them, you have to mechanically re-charge them by replacing some Aluminium (which is recyclable).

[FireArc]

i would like to encourage everyone to read the following two articles; it has a great writeup on LPG, petrol and diesel

Read the First Article - http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/000B5CEB1CF4B9EFCA25745600270332/$file/GoAutoNews_435.pdf

then the article on page 3 here:

http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/19D36D3B6433BBD6CA25745D002A8FFD/$file/GoAutoNews_436.pdf

they are about 4-5mb so i would suggest right clicking on the link and going "save target as..." and downloading a local copy

Enjoy,

T