Anyone got an LS1 on LPG?

[muso]

I am wondering how people are finding the LS1 once converted to LPG dual fuel for reliability, performance and economy, I have done a search but could not find specific comments on reiability, power (gain or loss) or gas consumption. Thanks in advance:)

[GMMAD]

I was just about to start a thread on this I am interested to know as well and if they are moded bolt ons,cam,heads etc

[Timmay5.7]

Sheps Stato runs on gas.... Check with him, or get him to comment here.

[MTC]

yeah there are a few Guys with LS1's on LPG on the forum now. I have 2 Ls1's on LPG also others I know of running it are Shep, DaveHat, olly-00

Both of Mine are Mafless, Otr's, extractors, exhaust. both have good economy on LPG & good performance one is a VY SS wgn & the other a LX8 Adventra. both mine were converted at APS/AutoGas Injection

[GMMAD]

yeah there are a few Guys with LS1's on LPG on the forum now. I have 2 Ls1's on LPG also others I know of running it are Shep, DaveHat, olly-00

Both of Mine are Mafless, Otr's, extractors, exhaust. both have good economy on LPG & good performance one is a VY SS wgn & the other a LX8 Adventra. both mine were converted at APS/AutoGas Injection

what sort of power are they pulling?

[muso]

yeah there are a few Guys with LS1's on LPG on the forum now. I have 2 Ls1's on LPG also others I know of running it are Shep, DaveHat, olly-00

Both of Mine are Mafless, Otr's, extractors, exhaust. both have good economy on LPG & good performance one is a VY SS wgn & the other a LX8 Adventra. both mine were converted at APS/AutoGas Injection

MIKEVYII, what kind of LPG consumption ie how many litres used to cover how many Km's or how far do you get out of a tank of known Litre size?

They would obviously be lpg vapour injection dual fuel setups?
The reason I ask about the LPG consumption is because my Magna 3.5 dual fuel (old inefficient venturi taxi type) cannot better 17.5 L/100 or 330 km's out of 58 useable litres of LPG (urban driving), so if an lpg LS1 can match or better that what the **** am I driving an LPG V6 for?

With the petrol price scare you can get some really great V8 cars now very cheaply.

[German Statesman]

........my Magna...cannot better 17.5 L/100 or 330 km's out of 58 useable litres of LPG


Sounds high...your economy on LPG should not be more than 10% worse than petrol, even with a mixer type installation.

When was the last time you had a good gas tune? More importantly, did they bridge out the Impco gas computer, and re-install a new tune???

The black Impco LPG processor has a base 8 minute programme then re-learns every 8 mins from then on - every time you have a major tune (plugs etc) you should wipe this programme and put a new one in.

Check to see that the diaphragm in the mixer doesn't need replacing too - usually every 70 - 80,000kms

Cheers

JOHN

[shep]

Australian LS1 and Holden Forums (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=1283936#post1283936)

500k's per 74 ltrs of lpg on a trip to Brisbane and back to Melb.
has;
mafless tune
220-226 115lsa comp cam
Orrsom OTR
pacies
3.5" sureflo single catback

I love it.

[DaveHAT]

I am wondering how people are finding the LS1 once converted to LPG dual fuel for reliability, performance and economy, I have done a search but could not find specific comments on reiability, power (gain or loss) or gas consumption. Thanks in advance:)

Yep ... my Berlina International wagon has sequential vapour injection fitted as Mike mentioned.

Mine's a sprintgas system with "80lt usable" tank across the back of the rear seat.

Mine's only been fitted for a few months so I can't really comment on reliability but I'm pretty happy with it. Economy wise, I'm seeing 14-15lt/100km compared to 13-ish on E10.

Mods are 3.46 gears, MAFless with full exhaust. I recently drove from Goulburn to Newcastle and around town for 2 days fully loaded with roof racks on plus the family and assoc luggage etc ... covering 520km and it cost me $42 @ 62 cents/lt to refill the tank after all that. :smilesandbanana: Pretty good really.

It's enjoyable only paying 61.9 cents/lt (with voucher :D) as opposed to $1.45. :woot:

Power seems almost line ball with petrol but I can't quote a specific figure as mine's never seen a dyno. Presume about 230ish but I don't really care. Driving it day to day, the difference is negligable.

The only pain is the space you lose with the tank, but this is reduced with the dount tank.

Hope that helps.

:cheers:

[muso]

Thanks DaveHat, sounds good, what do you get around town km range from the 80 useable litres? I've heard the vapour injection lpg systems are about $4,500 but you get the 2K rebate.

German Statesman, my magna is a factory Mitsubishi/Impco dual fuel system, I have noticed in the service records that it has been in before for excessive LPG consumption, I have phoned a few places some say it's about normal others say it's high, I would have thought it should be around 14-15L/100 myself since the petrol verion is about 11 or 12L/100. I don't know much about them and wouldn't know where or what the diaphram is (but my wife use to have one :) ) but seriously I should get it looked at, it may need a re-tune. thanks for your help and advice.

Thanks for your great responses guys cheers Muso.

If I'm going to help our global warming problem by going LPG I'd rather fix the ozone layer in a V8
Anyone know of a good LS1 LPG installer in Adelaide?

[redvxr8clubby]

Sounds high...your economy on LPG should not be more than 10% worse than petrol, even with a mixer type installation.

When was the last time you had a good gas tune? More importantly, did they bridge out the Impco gas computer, and re-install a new tune???

The black Impco LPG processor has a base 8 minute programme then re-learns every 8 mins from then on - every time you have a major tune (plugs etc) you should wipe this programme and put a new one in.

Check to see that the diaphragm in the mixer doesn't need replacing too - usually every 70 - 80,000kms

Cheers

JOHN

I drive a falcon EGas at work I think 20% more consumption is closer to the mark.

[BTA-MOTORSPORTS]

I am wondering how people are finding the LS1 once converted to LPG dual fuel for reliability, performance and economy, I have done a search but could not find specific comments on reiability, power (gain or loss) or gas consumption. Thanks in advance:)

we have just fitted a vapour injection system too a vy ute,i have just tuned it for the afr,s as the customer had a job come up and we had no time too do the power tune,but i have too admit it felt torquey on gas compared too fuel i will give you guys feed back on power and economy figures next cople of weeks.Guaranteed no power loss and reliability we have fitted a heap of vapour injection systems on heap of late model vechiles and the feed back is always great.

[FORCEFEDGAS]

As long as you get a good system and a good fitter..... lpg and ls1's are a great combo. ive converted a few also the VZ 6ltr's they are run sweet as.

Our wkshop ute is running twin turbos on dedicated gas making around 500hp

Go the BBQ juice.....

[MTC]

what sort of power are they pulling?

the SS 232.5rwkw mafless, VY2 HSV long 4-1's HSV VY2 cats opened up, xforce twin 2.5inch cat back & a Alloy OTR

the Addy 225awkw. Mafless HM short stainless 4-1's, Difillipo twin 2.5inch catback & a surflo OTR


MIKEVYII, what kind of LPG consumption ie how many litres used to cover how many Km's or how far do you get out of a tank of known Litre size?

They would obviously be lpg vapour injection dual fuel setups?
The reason I ask about the LPG consumption is because my Magna 3.5 dual fuel (old inefficient venturi taxi type) cannot better 17.5 L/100 or 330 km's out of 58 useable litres of LPG (urban driving), so if an lpg LS1 can match or better that what the **** am I driving an LPG V6 for?

With the petrol price scare you can get some really great V8 cars now very cheaply.

Yes Both are Vapour Injection LPG. & yeah duel fuel. both mine are Eurogas & both being wgn's I have donut tanks they take 50ltrs & I get around 300klms to a tank in the SS. the Addy being AWD & heavy use's a little more then the ss

Both are very reliable the Addy has had it for about 18mths now & the SS about 6mths.

This is the SS conversion
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/MIKEVYII/DSC03392.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/MIKEVYII/DSC03414.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g57/MIKEVYII/DSC03413.jpg

[brentonsav]

LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:

[MTC]

LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:

Ah good one Moron. Did that take your tiny brain long to think up:flipoff:

[DaveHAT]

LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:

:lmao:

The added bonus Brenton is that as you cruise along in your 61cents/lt fueled V8 powered LS1 ... you get to enjoy that lovely BBQ smell that everyone loves.

That in itself is pure gold. :yup: True story. :confused:

[255-LS1]

brenton = homo......?

[Road Warrior]

With the donut tanks, you say that they are only 50 litres. Could you cut the spare wheel well out and fit a custom floor in the rear for a bigger tank, and move the petrol tank under the seat??

[saaz]

My VQ 5 litre on a BRC computer controlled mixer system went over 350,000kms with no problems from the lpg (gearbox was near the end, rear main seal leak really annoyed me). LPG and petrol economy was about the same, 6 to 7 kms/litre around town, 8 to 9 km/litre on the highway.

I can't see why reliability with the LS1 should be any worse than the old lump, and with a more modern lpg conversion and the tuning capabilty of the LS1 that performance should be a bit better than a small 4 cylinder car.

[VY2ENJOY]

Got my VY wagon booked in with FORCEFEDGAS, just waiting for the kit to come in, so will report back when she is all done.

[muso]

LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:


Yeah, BBQ's thanks champ:goodjob:..........now about the LS1 with vapour injection lpg, thanks MikeVyII for the photos, looks tidy, my old VT V6 had the donut tank 50 usable litres but venturi (non injection lpg) and it's range was 250 km out of 50 litres, goe sto show how much more efficient the vapour injection systems are, you can almost have your cake and eat it too :)
Your under bonnet looks clean to Mike, they are also doing vapour lpg kits for the XR6T as well I've heard.
It is interesting that more torque may be available with gas, higher octane maybe? Our local cat's piss 91 ron is quite low.

[Marco]

we have just fitted a vapour injection system too a vy ute

Do you need to do anything to protect the tank, or is it right to just sit in the tray out in the open?

[German Statesman]

I drive a falcon EGas at work I think 20% more consumption is closer to the mark.

Sorry, if you had to market the conversions to fleets like I did you'd be laughed out of a presentation if you said LPG consumption would be 20% worse - that means it takes longer to pay for itself.

Make no mistake, 10% is the rule - any more than that, and you've got a system out of tune. Simple as that.

For the record muso, your Magna should be returning around 12.5 to 13L per 100kms on gas if its tuned properley.

The Impco distributor used to be in Regency Park somewhere. . . they'll give you a good gas mechanic.


LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:

'nuff said :rolleyes: :weirdo: :jerk:

[HRT.2FAST]

Ah good one Moron. Did that take your tiny brain long to think up:flipoff:

Mike ,I'm on gas to , Just enjoy your savings and your same as power and smile,:goodjob:

[BTA-MOTORSPORTS]

Do you need to do anything to protect the tank, or is it right to just sit in the tray out in the open?

it was a 1 tonner the tank actually sat behind the cab i will take some pics and post them up tmrw

[muso]

Thanks for the info German Statesman, I'll see if I can find the Impco distributor, here in Adelaide, I think 17L/100 is too high also. Cheers Muso:)

[Swordie]

German Statesman,

I'm no mechanic. How is LPG tuned? What’s involved?

[FORCEFEDGAS]

All depends on the type of system. All you really do is match it to the petrol system. Basically make sure the injector pulse width is the same on petrol as it is on gas. some do this by means of a auto calibrate system some you have to adjust manually. This is for most piggyback injection systems.

Very basic overview.....

[PoweredByCNG]

German Statesman,

I disagree with you about LPG consumption. For mixer-based systems, the figure is about a 30% increase over petrol. A good SVI system will reduce the consumption penalty to 10-15% over petrol. It has been claimed that a LI system will further reduce the consumption penalty to only slightly more than petrol.

Example: E-gas Falcons (mixer-based) will be lucky to get 15L/100km under mixed conditions. A petrol Falcon achieves under 11L/100km under the same conditions.

Regards,
Dave

[German Statesman]

German Statesman,

I disagree with you about LPG consumption. For mixer-based systems, the figure is about a 30% increase over petrol. A good SVI system will reduce the consumption penalty to 10-15% over petrol. It has been claimed that a LI system will further reduce the consumption penalty to only slightly more than petrol.

Example: E-gas Falcons (mixer-based) will be lucky to get 15L/100km under mixed conditions. A petrol Falcon achieves under 11L/100km under the same conditions.

Regards,
Dave

While I welcome your input, I regret to advise you your information is partially wrong.

We monitored 2 x VS Ecotec V6 Commodores with factory Holden/Impco options over 40,000kms for a major fleet that was contemplating buying 120 Commodores and equipping them with the genuine LPG option - I still have the dyno sheets and fuel records, and we consistently recorded 10% difference over petrol with a worst case of 14% due to a batch of bad LPG. We compared them back to back with a VR from their fleet which had been converted with a positive pressure European system - this vehicle proved to be overly sensitive to LPG blends, and returned economy differences from 15% to 25% which lengthens the time it takes to 'break even'.

Your reference to the LPG Falcon is correct, because it uses a positive pressure operation system with a venturi-type mixer whose gas flow is controlled by a stepper motor-driven plug in the vapour line - the system depends on the stepper motor for all of its off-idle metering, which not only is notoriously unreliable, it is complicated to set up a proper lean cruise (usually has to be programmed into a gas system processor) and lacks precision which leads to poor performance and fuel economy.

The Impco gas valve mixer systems use a vacuum-powered air valve, and vacuum-actuated lean cruise valves which as well as being deadly accurate there is also a high degree of durability as there are no electrical glitches and there is always going to be a vacuum supply when the engine is running. I've seen 200,000km plus Impco feedback mixer systems on engines with still the same major parts (serviceable items replaced of course), and still returning rock solid LPG economy figures. We found the Impco systems were less liable to component failure from dirty gas contamination too, because of the rugged simplicity of the equipment - there were two drain plugs to squirt carby cleaner through, and they were as good as gold.

Swordie, the system is seperate from the petrol system and the only integration in a mixer type system on EFI engines is vacuum signals from the engine and an O2 sensor signal. The stochiometric ration in LPG is higher, and you simply adjust the mixtures with an exhaust gas analyser. Plug changes are sooner in LPG engines because of the hotter burn temp, but generally a good LPG system will require nothing more than mixture adjustments.

Cheers

JOHN

[mmciau]

GermanStatesman,

Thank you for that insight

Greatly appreciated.

Mike

[blownba]

Betternot let commsirac see what the German statesman has written about consumption, hey poweredbycng???
He would loose his mind as he thinks there is no way humanly possible that a figure better than 30% is achieveble by any system.
I always market my Impco systems as having a increasein economy of around 30% over petrol, in reality the figure is much better as you have stated GS, but for saftey's sake thats what I market them at, and as alot of OEM testing has proved that figure to be correct. Lean cruise is not exactly legal as the vehicle must have closed loop operation at cruise and that will not return such low figures.
With vapour injection we sell it as 10% to 20% increase in cunsumption and liquid injection as 5% increase, even though we have figures and customers who see the same consumption as petrol if not slighhtly better.
I can't see why people are so damn sensitive to LPG economy, for freak sake its gonna save you a bucket load is that not enough??? Surely these people who argue the economy of LPG can find something better to do??? Like pick the cheese from behind their ears??

[macca_779]

Betternot let commsirac see what the German statesman has written about consumption, hey poweredbycng???
He would loose his mind as he thinks there is no way humanly possible that a figure better than 30% is achieveble by any system.
I always market my Impco systems as having a increasein economy of around 30% over petrol, in reality the figure is much better as you have stated GS, but for saftey's sake thats what I market them at, and as alot of OEM testing has proved that figure to be correct. Lean cruise is not exactly legal as the vehicle must have closed loop operation at cruise and that will not return such low figures.
With vapour injection we sell it as 10% to 20% increase in cunsumption and liquid injection as 5% increase, even though we have figures and customers who see the same consumption as petrol if not slighhtly better.
I can't see why people are so damn sensitive to LPG economy, for freak sake its gonna save you a bucket load is that not enough??? Surely these people who argue the economy of LPG can find something better to do??? Like pick the cheese from behind their ears??

I have a question.. Why is Lean Cruise not exactly legal. I know why it isn't for Petrol anymore but with the emissions of LPG I would of thought there would be no legal issue.

[DaveHAT]

Some economy figures from my Sprint gas equipped LS1 wagon.

This week:

Figures have been rounded up v.slightly.

KM covered = 450km (mixture of fwy, around town and 70-80km/hr cruise)
Total gas used to cover that distance = 50lt measured at the pump.

Equates to approx. 11.1(ish) lt/100km which in my book isn't too bad. :goodjob:

My car is MAFless with OTR, has lean cruise activated and seems to run fine when in open loop (SANS O2 sensors). Possibly a touch lean as I've noted some "chugging" once open loop is activated but nothing too bothersome. Some tweaking might sort it out but MEH.

A question for those more in the know than me ... do SVI systems need to have the mixtures checked? I would have thought that seeing as the LPG PCM follows the OEM PCM injector pulse reading from the petrol injectors ... that would be taken care of.

Genuine question ... :)

[German Statesman]

I have a question.. Why is Lean Cruise not exactly legal. I know why it isn't for Petrol anymore but with the emissions of LPG I would of thought there would be no legal issue.

A bit of a bone of contention in the LPG industry, but the issue is the oxygen sensor must keep cycling rich/lean etc and with some systems it doesn't.

Although much cleaner than petrol and diesel, LPG still has emissions and is bound to comply with the Euro limits applicable

[JOINDQ]

Very interesting thread with plenty of info.

Thanks to all those who have contributed.

Im very interested in converting my 02 monaro to gas, does anyone know the price a conversion like this will cost me?
I like the idea of a donut tank as i dont really want to lose my boot space.

Any help is greately appreciated!

Cheers.

[DaveHAT]

A bit of a bone of contention in the LPG industry, but the issue is the oxygen sensor must keep cycling rich/lean etc and with some systems it doesn't.

Although much cleaner than petrol and diesel, LPG still has emissions and is bound to comply with the Euro limits applicable

So ... a car that runs a full time open loop tune is a problem?

I only ask as I've tried mine with both open loop and closed loop tunes when on LPG and it runs "better" when in open loop full time.

This would seem to suggest that the LPG system doesn't "need" the O2 sensors ???

questions rather than statements. :) :confused:

[German Statesman]

So ... a car that runs a full time open loop tune is a problem?

I only ask as I've tried mine with both open loop and closed loop tunes when on LPG and it runs "better" when in open loop full time.

This would seem to suggest that the LPG system doesn't "need" the O2 sensors ???

questions rather than statements. :) :confused:

In a closed loop engine management system where an O2 sensor acts as an exhaust gas analyser, the engine should only be in open loop if it is under wide open throttle, or the O2 sensors are on the blink - open loop means the oxygen sensor's emissions information is not being acted upon by the ECM and/or gas computer, and many systems go to full rich as a safeguard = big emissions.

The Impco systems we installed in the VP/VR/VS/VT/VX factory options, all cycled in closed loop operation (even on lean cruise) except under wide open throttle. They were able to achieve this easily by 'synching' the vapour pressures between the mixer and the convertor and achieving near to dammit perfect stochiometric ratio - it was so good at this, the Holden Impco systems could even compensate for unserviceable mixer diaphragms past their service replacement date, and still return good mileage on the base tune. There was even a 'dump' valve in the later systems that like a blow-off valve on a turbo, would release the atmospheric pressure in a convertor on wide open throttle, and stop the engine from going full lean with a convertor full of LPG into the mixer.

Impco is a system that needed a lot of knowledge of its operations, and there are 'Impco specialists' in every state who know it back to front. It uses a lot of engine vacuum input, and although there's debate from every mechanic as to which is more reliable an electronic signal or a vacuum signal, they were both prone to shortfalls however in an Impco system it was easy to rectify a vacuum fault without LPG component replacement.

Hope I haven't OD'd you on tech crap :)

Cheers

JOHN

[redvxr8clubby]

German Statesman,

I disagree with you about LPG consumption. For mixer-based systems, the figure is about a 30% increase over petrol. A good SVI system will reduce the consumption penalty to 10-15% over petrol. It has been claimed that a LI system will further reduce the consumption penalty to only slightly more than petrol.

Example: E-gas Falcons (mixer-based) will be lucky to get 15L/100km under mixed conditions. A petrol Falcon achieves under 11L/100km under the same conditions.

Regards,
Dave

My Falcon Egas wagon does in the high 16's mostly around Sydney Metro area, often in peak traffic.

Looking at Holden website - they claim 10.8 l/ 100Km , for Omega or Berlina petrol, and 15.5 l/100 Km for Omega or Berlina LPG that's a bit over a 40% increase in consumption. I thought the liquid injection systems were supposed to be minimal difference in consumption, still saves at that price in Metro areas like Sydney, but starts to become questionable in some country areas where LPG can be 50% more expensive than city, and petrol is perhaps not that much dearer than city. For example in January I saw LPG at 89.9 cents in country when petrol in same servo was $1.39.9 - if LPG consumption of your new Commodore is 40% more, (by Holdens own figures) then if you lived there you probably wouldn't bother - overall saving as low as about 10% on those prices/ consumption rates, also consider loss of boot space.

Seems too good to be true that you can buy new Commodore for only $400 more than petrol and have less than half the fuel costs of petrol model, in the city areas, even at 40% more consumption, you would still have fuel cost about 2/3 that of petrol Omega / Berlina. (With petrol at say $1.50 and gas at 65c). Equivalent of paying about 90 cents for gas versuses $1.50 for petrol. Holden claim your fuel costs for LPG Commodore are about Corolla fuel cost equivalent - sounds about right if you live in an area where LPG is usually noticeably less than 50% price of 91 octane, and for comparison the Corolla would be the current style with aircon, auto.

[blownba]

My Falcon Egas wagon does in the high 16's mostly around Sydney Metro area, often in peak traffic.

Looking at Holden website - they claim 10.8 l/ 100Km , for Omega or Berlina petrol, and 15.5 l/100 Km for Omega or Berlina LPG that's a bit over a 40% increase in consumption. I thought the liquid injection systems were supposed to be minimal difference in consumption, still saves at that price in Metro areas like Sydney, but starts to become questionable in some country areas where LPG can be 50% more expensive than city, and petrol is perhaps not that much dearer than city. For example in January I saw LPG at 89.9 cents in country when petrol in same servo was $1.39.9 - if LPG consumption of your new Commodore is 40% more, (by Holdens own figures) then if you lived there you probably wouldn't bother - overall saving as low as about 10% on those prices/ consumption rates, also consider loss of boot space.

Seems too good to be true that you can buy new Commodore for only $400 more than petrol and have less than half the fuel costs of petrol model, in the city areas, even at 40% more consumption, you would still have fuel cost about 2/3 that of petrol Omega / Berlina. (With petrol at say $1.50 and gas at 65c). Equivalent of paying about 90 cents for gas versuses $1.50 for petrol. Holden claim your fuel costs for LPG Commodore are about Corolla fuel cost equivalent - sounds about right if you live in an area where LPG is usually noticeably less than 50% price of 91 octane, and for comparison the Corolla would be the current style with aircon, auto.

Commodore is not a liquid injection system. It is a vapour injection system, and a very poorly set up system at that. That is why they are having so many problems with it.
The mapping of the commo's LPG vapour injection is poor at very best. If I convert the very same vehicle, my figures blow Holdens figures out of the water. And NO reliability issues either.
Holden need more practice with vapour injection before they get it right IMO.

[Swordie]

German Statesman , thanks for the great information.

[laz87]

My mates got gas and when he put it on the dyno it pulled out more power then on petrol:)

[PoweredByCNG]

The standard tune with Holden's SVI system is nasty. On our VZ SV6 with the OMVL Dream XXI SVI system, we can travel around 550km on a 75L tank of gas - that's between 13-14L/100km - far below Holden's claim of 16L/100km on the VE dual fuel Omega.

Regarding lean-cruise: leaning out the air/fuel mixture may reduce consumption, but NOx emissions are increased to levels that are above the limit for Euro-emissions norms. Standard catalytic converters perform poorly at any air/fuel ratio other than stoichiometric.

Regards,
Dave

[redvxr8clubby]

Commodore is not a liquid injection system. It is a vapour injection system, and a very poorly set up system at that. That is why they are having so many problems with it.
The mapping of the commo's LPG vapour injection is poor at very best. If I convert the very same vehicle, my figures blow Holdens figures out of the water. And NO reliability issues either.
Holden need more practice with vapour injection before they get it right IMO.

Thanks Blownba, so you would agree with German Statesman that something like 10 may be 15% extra is very realistic? You would think with Holden's engineering resources they could do better than 40% extra consumption, presumably they err on the conservative side to minimise reliability issues? 40% is a huge consumption penalty. Obviously if I ever convert to gas I would need to do my homework on any conversion, must remember liquid injection! These threads are a good source of info, and discussion point for anyone considering this. If you can convert a V6 or V8 Commodore and have only 10% extra consumption, and practically the same performance, that's excellent result as long as there's no reliability issues with say head/ valve damage etc. in the longer term.

[Berlina 5.7]

I am getting my LS1 converted to vapour injection on Sept 11, can anyone tell me the best place for the new GAS engine management system. My installer mentioned to me that he will put it in front of the battery, problem is if I blow my right headlight globe, i need to take the battery out, but i dont want to take out the EMS system. What other place in the engine bay should it go.
thanks

[smokey777]

i thought liquid injection was the way to go??

[Wonky]

i thought liquid injection was the way to go??

Yep, certainly sounds to be but there are very few places who can do it yet, even around Melbourne, and maybe he doesn't want to have to wait.

[muso]

I spoke to a fitter here in Adelaide who does Vapour injection lpg systems for LS1's, when I mentioned 'liquid injection' he said it's been tried and does not work, too many problems, it's a flash in the pan, he said vapour works and is here to stay.

It is difficult to determine what is accurate info though when he does not sell liquid injection it is not in his best interests to praise it, so he will "sell" what he does only.

He also said it is not possible or advisable to fit LPG vapour systems to XR6T as there are too many problems, I know this thread is about LS1's but Parnell's do vapour injection systems for both LS1 and XR6T without any issues.

[FORCEFEDGAS]

I spoke to a fitter here in Adelaide who does Vapour injection lpg systems for LS1's, when I mentioned 'liquid injection' he said it's been tried and does not work, too many problems, it's a flash in the pan, he said vapour works and is here to stay.

It is difficult to determine what is accurate info though when he does not sell liquid injection it is not in his best interests to praise it, so he will "sell" what he does only.

He also said it is not possible or advisable to fit LPG vapour systems to XR6T as there are too many problems, I know this thread is about LS1's but Parnell's do vapour injection systems for both LS1 and XR6T without any issues.

No problems converting the XR6-T or LS1, have done both and they run sweet as.

[JOINDQ]

Hello all,

in reference to post #37, can anyone giive me rough prices on converting my car to gas?

im seriously interested in exploring this option.

thanks,

[FORCEFEDGAS]

Hello all,

in reference to post #37, can anyone giive me rough prices on converting my car to gas?

im seriously interested in exploring this option.

thanks,


All depend on the brand of system the fitter uses and wether liquid or vapour could be anywhere from 4k to 5.5k. if going vapour get a system that uses keihin injectors as they are pretty much the best availible.

[XR8KLR]

So Parnell's SVI on the LS1 is alright? Any Idea on cost for this system? $3500-4000?
Cheers
Ian

[German Statesman]

So Parnell's SVI on the LS1 is alright? Any Idea on cost for this system? $3500-4000?
Cheers
Ian

My experience with Parnell's over the years has never been good, and I'd look at an alternative system.

As BlownBA stated, I understand Impco are having serious problems with their injection kits. I don't know who to recommend for the vapour kits (all the brands mentioned bar Impco had unsatisfactory reputations with non-injection kits for years) but I had experience with liquid injection some years ago & I think that's going to be the go.

[asparky]

Hi Muso, I had my 6ltr put on gas last wk. I think its an LS2, 07 model. Unit is the VSI type and cost 5k to install. I went for a donut tank in the spare wheel well giving 58 ltr usable gas, but at least I still have full boot space just the spare trye in there now.
With only 300 ks since done I can only tell you economy is about 13-14, which is same as l was getting on petrol, but it was good to fill up on $35 rather than $110...
Power seems about the same as petrol although when l try to put my foot through the back of the headlight I am getting a slight miss, feels like the gas cant keep up with the demand from the pedal. There is a 1,500 k service where the mechanic says he will make an adjustment that will address that issue.
Other things are you need to do a service every 20k outside of your normal service, est cost for that is about $250. I did a cost analysis and worked out with the 2k govt rebate and using 100 lt per wk, payback was about 40 wks.
I will give you an update after the service. Andy.

[asparky]

Hi Muso, I had my 6ltr put on gas last wk. I think its an LS2, 07 model. Unit is the VSI type and cost 5k to install. I went for a donut tank in the spare wheel well giving 58 ltr usable gas, but at least I still have full boot space just the spare trye in there now.
With only 300 ks since done I can only tell you economy is about 13-14, which is same as l was getting on petrol, but it was good to fill up on $35 rather than $110...
Power seems about the same as petrol although when l try to put my foot through the back of the headlight I am getting a slight miss, feels like the gas cant keep up with the demand from the pedal. There is a 1,500 k service where the mechanic says he will make an adjustment that will address that issue.
Other things are you need to do a service every 20k outside of your normal service, est cost for that is about $250. I did a cost analysis and worked out with the 2k govt rebate and using 100 lt per wk, payback was about 40 wks.
I will give you an update after the service. Andy.

[CapriceMe]

OK, question:
Clearly any engine can be converted, but will it last? I'm interested to know if there is valve issues on the 6L (WM Caprice) if convert it to gas, and secondly, I've got mate with a VE SV6 and he's been told countless times that the valve issue on that engine is a big one and the engine will not last more than 50,000km's... Help!! Can I and my mate convert or not?????

[mmciau]

Do a 'search'

On the 'liquid LPG' and other LPG threads there are references to what you ask.

Where holden fitted dual fuel to the VZ and VE, there are specific codes in the VIN and Engine numbers for the dual fuel.

Mike

[ls1vt209]

In relation to older posts in this thread where people are talking lean cruise. Most tunes I have seen with lean cruise activated have AFR's in the vicinity of 15.5 , well if this is the AFR's people are talking about when leaning out gas it is actually not lean at all, as stoich for gas is as below.

Fuel By weight By volume [1] Percent fuel by weight
Gasoline 14.7 : 1 - 6.8%
Natural Gas 17.2 : 1 9.7 : 1 5.8%
Propane (LP) 15.5 : 1 23.9 : 1 6.45%


So my question really is, would it really be lean or at stoich.

Also another question I have been lead to believe over the years that gas is better running lean than rich as when it runs rich it actually creates more heat which in turn can cause damage.

Cheers

[en1gma]

Just had my VZ SS converted to the JTG liquid injection system for $5250. The VSI system costs around $4500 for an 8 but as I do around 50,000kms a year I thought I'd save money in the long run. I'm currently only getting about 400kms out of 63 usable litres of gas but I've been a little heavy on the throttle and doing too many city runs. Still, getting the same economy on gas as my previos Berlina V6 with the mixer setup. Well worth the investment I'd say if you're doing a lot of Kms especially if you don't want to feel like you've lost any performance. I think a lot of people are surprised by the acceleration especially as the cars debadged except the LPG tags.

The Liquid Gas system also benefits over the VSI as it does not require the cars coolant to be used to stop the system freezing up. Less to go wrong.

[davojbo5]

yes my 01 vx ss runs duel fuel liquid. econ i get between 400k and 450k from around 63L give or take 2L. power feels like its down a bit on the gas although i have not yet "tuned it", some are saying 300hp at wheels i think that is around 225kw useing a ss growler cold air induction and retaining maf sensor, (cost $1500)others say mafless is better I spose when it get the cash for the tune ill have to choose.

reliabilaty has for me been an less than good thing have had 3 or 4 different of plugs 1 new leads, 3 injectors and after about 10,000klm i have a strange splutter under light load high gear(4,5,6) cant feel it at lower speed but it would still be there. it feels like out of balance wheel but it comming from the motor. the fitter of said system cant feel/ find what im on about.:flamin:

holden dealers all say to me ls1' are at extream risk of "BURNING VALVES" FROM THE EXTRA HEAT FROM BURNNING GAS? hope thats not my problem.

so all that said i'm looking for advice on those isues myself

[duke5700]

Well I know of a VT LS1 being fitted with a decent cam and twin turbo setup on gas. Should be dyno'ed and emmisioned complianced, insured rego'ed etc by the end of the week. I will have a chat to the guy doing it and if he is happy I will put it up on the forums. I think he was looking for 500+hp at the tyres as a daily driver.

[wazza2]

LPG is only good for one thing - Cooking BBQ's! :flame:
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm are you a cook

[Toddler78]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm are you a cook

wow what a thread mine and all for some useful information:goodjob:

[HSV Listy]

Here is something different for the BBQ cooks. If only I could get some sweet propane here like they have at supergas servos. More power then.

Does 1.22.5 at hidden valley circuit and lap record holder for streetcars around hidden valley. No to bad for bbq gas 2 tonne car.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/100_3453.jpg

[Stocky]

Decided to bite the bullet with rising fuel prices & be a "green" person & selected the JTG system. Steve at Oztrack recommended Kurt at Australian LP Gas Conversions in Wollongong. I have seen a few conversions where the workmanship was obviously rushed to get the car out of the door quickly.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/SVIInstallation179.jpg
I did not want the installation to look like this !!!


Had my VY2 M6 SV8 converted by Kurt at Australian LP Gas Conversions in Wollongong & happy with the result. Looks very factory fitted. See the pix to see the work. Even trimmed the engine covers so that they could remain

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/JTG_VY2_9703_resize.jpg
JTG Injectors with cutaway on engine covers


http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/JTG_VY2_9706_resize.jpg
JTG Controller


http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/JTG_VY2_9708_resize.jpg
GAS Gauge


http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/JTG_VY2_9709_resize.jpg
LPG tank installation


http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j369/Glasslugger/Cars/JTG_VY2_9712_resize.jpg
Fuel Filler - note shortened petrol cap supplied.
Apologies for the white paint & black rubber some dishonest cretin left on my car


The ECM had been reflashed with a mail order tune for Optimax 98 [214kW at a recent dyno day) & drivability is much the same with either 98 or LPG but the idling is certainly smoother on LPG with maybe a touch more wellie.

Still early days for comments on economy and power but next spend will be with Oztrack for a gas tune.


Stocky

[Souljah]

Went for a fang in the Rotrex blown VE in LiLPG last night and even with a very early LPG tune in it, f#ck me it goes hard. I think it's going back today to have larger LPG injector calibrators fitted and fuel pressure upped so the tune can be finished properly.

[Mick1]

Hey, l know this is an old thread but l read it all b4 l got my car converted to LPG to get an idea of the fuel economy l could expect. l found it had some useful information but l was a bit skeptical of some of the figures considering new coms & falcons are quoteing figures between 14-17L/100km. So after reading it l thought l'd post some of my numbers when l got them.

My conversion is a vapour injectored LS1, l was told not to go liquid injection by the fitter cos it was to unreliable. Anyway, l did 335km, 2/3 HWY ks, my trip meter said l would hav used 36l of PULP and it took 43l of lpg to fill. Thats 7.8km/L or 12.8L/100km which means l should be able to get 570km out of my 72L tank . That makes me very happy cos those figures blow my old 6cyl com on lpg away.

The car is a stock VX Senator.The system is 'King' brand & cost me $3900 up front which is gunna be $2650 after the rebate.

l don't no about u guys but l usually keep my cars for about 100,000km, that works out to be $21,000+ on PULP & about $8000 on lpg, its a nobraina. With what l save l'll buy my next ride;)

BTW l quoted these numbers to my brother and his reply was , 'so' my bike gets 15km/L. But that 15km costs him $1.40, my HSV does 18km for $1.40:D

[etrocket]

Guys don't forget to add the petrol cost too. Bloody costs $16 to put 10l. Could get nearly 30l on gas for that

[kangavxss]

Sounds the go. Cheap fuel and still have power. Anyone recommend a Vapour
LPG fitter in the Adelaide area please?
Cheers

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

any info on supercharged gas installs with some pic

[Mick1]

Some more numbers guys: Did 457km, trip comp indicated l would hav used 62l of Pulp, tank took 66.6l to fill. Thats 6.9km/l or 14.5l/100km.

[Mick1]

Oh, should hav said, it was about 2/3 city km's this time (with some floggin in it to!).

[rizzle68]

Late arrival on the thread but I've got my Cross8 running on dual fuel.

Got the conversion done by Rob at Auto Gas Injection in Frankston and they were great, couple of days turn around on the install, couple of months on the paperwork but thats another story, just got my $1250 rebate today.

I had the convert done in September just before I went up to the Deni Ute Muster. The ute performed excellent on the drive up, and hell good in the mud, lots of drifting, mud running, circle work, yehaa good fun.. :yahoo: oops back to the point.

I had it back at Frankston a week or so ago because the gas was idling like a three legged dog with a chicken bone stuck in its neck, on fuel it was running ok. They replaced a dodgy injector and told me to change the plugs 'cause they looked like they had never been changed. Probably true, I bought the ute in September with 200K+ on it.

I changed the plugs and leads today and put in Top Gun 300 Max leads and Bosch Platinum Plus 4 plugs, holy hoot, she goes good now... Very happy chappy, much more responsive, much smoother idling and smoother power delivery.

For interest there were a couple of black 7mm leads, and the rest were red leads. The plugs were Denso with tiny little bits of pointy electrode left, they were clean when they came out but who knows how they produced any spark. The point is, if the LPG was running ok on that set up it could only get better with good gear.

As far as economy, I had a toroidal cylinder fitted (doughnut shape) where the spare wheel goes which gives me about 60l useable, I dont think I have ever put more than 55l in which gives me about 330km or so ~16l / 100km

I am not a dyno junkie but I couldn't tell you whether I am running on LPG or Fuel without looking at the gauge. I can definately tell you at the servo though. About $30 to fill with BBQ gas compared to $80+ with premium for about the same distance on each tank.

Feel free to message me if you want more info..

Cheers
Rick
'04 VY Cross8

[Carby]

What sort of system did you get? Is it Liquid or Vapour injection?

Also does the Car automatically change to petrol when you get into the higher rev ranges? If so can you notice when it changes from LPG to Petrol whilst accelerating hard?

[rizzle68]

Hi Carby, if you were asking me I got liquid injection.

The only time it changes to petrol is when it runs out of gas, and if you happen to be accelerating at the time you can notice the change. On normal driving it is barely noticable except my system beeps to say it has run out.

I still feel the gas is a bit more responsive than the fuel.

I am 100% satisfied with the performance, and economy, but I would recommend making sure you have good plugs and leads if you are going to have it done.

[stoney]

My ssv ute has liquid injection, cost me $110 to drive from bathurst to Adelaide yesterday, one fill it was 84c and usually pay no more than 70. Doesn't go 100% as good as petrol but I'm not sure whether I can get it tuned or something?...

[lease1]

My ssv ute has liquid injection, cost me $110 to drive from bathurst to Adelaide yesterday, one fill it was 84c and usually pay no more than 70. Doesn't go 100% as good as petrol but I'm not sure whether I can get it tuned or something?...

Doesnt go as good as petrol? Mine made 20kw more on LPG than petrol without any tuning! Mates ve made 262 rwkw on petrol and 290 rwkw on LPG, before supercharging.

[Carby]

Hi Carby, if you were asking me I got liquid injection.

The only time it changes to petrol is when it runs out of gas, and if you happen to be accelerating at the time you can notice the change. On normal driving it is barely noticable except my system beeps to say it has run out.

I still feel the gas is a bit more responsive than the fuel.

I am 100% satisfied with the performance, and economy, but I would recommend making sure you have good plugs and leads if you are going to have it done.

OK thanks for that - I think I've pretty much made up my mind that I'll get a liquid system (even though a few installers pan the liquid systems, mainly as they say there are issues filling it in hot weather). I like the more responsive bit and I'm assuming the gas usage is about 30% more than petrol. Now I have to decide between a JTG or Orbital system, who seem to be the two main players in installing Liquid systems.

Thanks again.

[PoweredByCNG]

All LPG cars will experience difficulties filling in summer to some extent. It's just the nature of gaseous fuels (i.e. hotter temperature = lower density). Fuelling speed will depend on the performance of the particular servo and their hardware as well as the location of their storage tank (i.e. underground is better).

As for Orbital vs. ICOM JTG, go for the JTG if you're after a system that supports future engine mods and is easy to recalibrate with the help of your installer. The Orbital system does NOT allow calibration by anyone other than an Orbital/Vialle staff member with the appropriate software and unlocking key.

[PoweredByCNG]

Doesn't go 100% as good as petrol but I'm not sure whether I can get it tuned or something?...

Could be a problem on your end (e.g. worn ignition components - LPG is far more spark-sensitive than petrol is so problems will show up on LPG before petrol) or the system could be incorrectly calibrated. I'd make sure your engine is running on tune first as a simple plug change is cheap and you will see the benefits on both fuels.

[Carby]

All LPG cars will experience difficulties filling in summer to some extent. It's just the nature of gaseous fuels (i.e. hotter temperature = lower density). Fuelling speed will depend on the performance of the particular servo and their hardware as well as the location of their storage tank (i.e. underground is better).

As for Orbital vs. ICOM JTG, go for the JTG if you're after a system that supports future engine mods and is easy to recalibrate with the help of your installer. The Orbital system does NOT allow calibration by anyone other than an Orbital/Vialle staff member with the appropriate software and unlocking key.

Not planning any mods but I'll get a price for both systems and see who comes out on top!!

Thanks for the heads up!

[PoweredByCNG]

Another thing to remember is that the Orbital system (due to company policy) will switch to petrol operation at high RPM and under certain other conditions. The JTG system does not.

[LuisS]

If you ask my opinion , JTG FTW :)

[PoweredByCNG]

If you ask my opinion , JTG FTW :)

Well of course you would say that. You guys install the stuff!

But seriously, the JTG system has several major advantages despite the $1000+ extra cost over the Orbital system. Firstly, there's no separate ECU and no form of electronic calibration. Secondly, the system will only switch to petrol when YOU want it to (except for start-up and when you're out of gas, of course). And lastly, Orbital does not allow for custom installs, so for many configurations, the JTG system is the only way.

[Carby]

Too bad APS is in Melbourne!

I think the HSV factory LPG setup also switches to petrol at higher revs so that does not really concern me.

I'll get some pricing and take into account the JTG advantages before deciding!

[stoney]

Could be a problem on your end (e.g. worn ignition components - LPG is far more spark-sensitive than petrol is so problems will show up on LPG before petrol) or the system could be incorrectly calibrated. I'd make sure your engine is running on tune first as a simple plug change is cheap and you will see the benefits on both fuels.

Thanks mate I will look into it, factory plugs or any other recommendation? It's got an otr and exhaust but still maf so might find someone to have a look and maybe put on dyno to check

[PoweredByCNG]

I think the HSV factory LPG setup also switches to petrol at higher revs so that does not really concern me.

Yup, because it's an Orbital system!

[PoweredByCNG]

Thanks mate I will look into it, factory plugs or any other recommendation? It's got an otr and exhaust but still maf so might find someone to have a look and maybe put on dyno to check

If those modifications were installed AFTER the installation of the LPG system, I would take the car to an installer that deals with ALPGW / ICOM JTG equipment and get them to check the calibrators in the injectors. If larger calibrators are needed then they will be able to source them from ALPGW for you.

Regarding plugs, the best plugs by far for LPG operation are Bosch dual platinum plugs. They are place less stress on the rest of your ignition system once they start wearing and last longest on gas. Ask your auto supply store for the appropriate model for your car (as in same heat range etc. as petrol), but make sure that the electrode gap is no more than 1.1mm.

[Black VU SS ute]

othr than a tune issue toucch up i ned for my jtg liquid system, I'm happy as I run my car everyday doing 110ks round trip to work a day, and i have mainly hwy driving. and i get 475k out of 64ltr usable in my 80ltr tank, which is great as I only use to get 550ks out of 64ltrs of fuel in my cammed ls1

[Daggs68]

what about turbo/super charged on LPG ?
anyony done that successfully ?
cheers
Darryl

[Daggs68]

what about turbo/super charged on LPG ?
anyony done that successfully ?
cheers
Darryl

Or maybe someone could post a link to the question........
any info would be great.
Car I'm looking at has lpg injection.

any links ?

cheers,
Darryl.

[lease1]

Contact T2000 he has an L98 with a custom Rotrex Supercharger, CAM and running ICOM JTG Liquid Injected LPG which he installed and tuned himself. He can probably answer some questions.

[LuisS]

Hey Darryl -

1/ Can be done
2/ Has been done :) - what are you thinking of doing?

[Daggs68]

I am looking at an Adventra that has lpg injection. Not sure of the system, but it is worth over $4,500 for the install...... so the owner says. I took it for a drive and thought it went alright, but I would certainly be looking for more.
Would like to know what is available...... kit wise. I quite like the idea of turbos, and having had a couple WRX's I do love the way turbos feel and drive. And GO !!!!! But I also like the look of the few PD blowers I have seen on here.
So depends on what works best, and I guess I need it to be reliable cause it'll be my work transport..... and the idea of duel fuel is a definate benefit extending the cruising range
At the moment I am kicking around a HEAP of ideas......
help :-)
cheers
Darryl

[Daggs68]

still looking at it, the adventra I mean....... and it is an impco system apparently.
the same as the holden ones so that is a vapour system yeah ?
Drives nice enough.
But what about when I get bored and need more grunt. I will go turbo or pb blower.
I guess anything can be done but it'll just cost.
Anybody done this with this system ? I HAVE tried searching too........ but it comes up with heaps and heaps of threads.

Thanks in advance
Darryl

[exquisit_]

i asked in a seperate thread
(http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?156445-anyone-have-a-high-kay-lpg-ls1-how-healthy-are-they&p=1996315#post1996315)

but i'll also ask here...
how are ls1's which have over 100k or 200k kms on an injected liquid lpg system??
any problems with the motor as a result of using lpg??

[LuisS]

i asked in a seperate thread
(http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?156445-anyone-have-a-high-kay-lpg-ls1-how-healthy-are-they&p=1996315#post1996315)

but i'll also ask here...
how are ls1's which have over 100k or 200k kms on an injected liquid lpg system??
any problems with the motor as a result of using lpg??

Ask any "VHA" taxi driver