Fuel Quality Octane Accuracy

[boyley]

I was thinking today about how good is the fuel we put in our vehicles and who regulates it and enforces it.

When I fill my tank with 98RON am I getting what I'm paying for?

Anyone from the Oil Industry or a motoring group know?

[Wonky]

Good question! There is a BP down Chev's way (south of him) that it seems puts 91 or 95 octane at best in its Ultimate tanks as cars that have filled there invariably pull about 10kw lower than anticipated based on their previous results or those of very similar cars. They go away and run a few tanks through from elsewhere and hey presto! - back to the expected figures! :mad:

[boyley]

I wonder if there is a litmus paper test that one can perform on the fuel they buy.

I have just started adding a bottle of octane boost to each tank, its costly but I think worth it for the peace of mind.

[Wonky]

There is apparently testing available according to one of the forum members who occasionally goes down to Chev's but I'm not sure whether that is through some contacts he has in the industry or available to everyone. I have gained the impression everyone has access and it's not all that expensive. Hopefully he will see the thread and respond or PM me.

[BadSeed]

yeah i'd avoid that dodgy BP in seaford like the plague..

[seldo]

There are a few ( I was going to say plenty of) dodgy stations around that dilute their fuel with cheap cleaning spirits like benzine. They buy it for about .50c/l so it adds a huge markup for them. All the fuel distributor needs is a declaration that it's to be used for cleaning and away they go. Naturally you'll find this is usually only the smaller servos and usually the independents, which is why I always stick to a high volume company station. I might pay a bit more, but at least I know what I'm getting.
Unfortunately these guys are being forced to do this to compete with the big company-owned servos who can afford to discount the small blokes out of business, unless they resort to this sort of cheating.

[Alister]

I was thinking today about how good is the fuel we put in our vehicles and who regulates it and enforces it.

When I fill my tank with 98RON am I getting what I'm paying for?

Anyone from the Oil Industry or a motoring group know?

Yes, I can answer that.
There is a Government Department (Department of Environment and something else from memory?). I've seen the inspectors twice in three years at a servo I work at. I think they might be a Federal department since he was telling me horror stories from down in NSW (methanol in ULP, 91RON sold asd 98RON.

They come to the servo, identify themselves, ask for consent, and then take samples. When they recently tested fuel when I was there, all fuels were above the octane ratings. V Power was 98.2ROn fron memory.

[boyley]

There are a few ( I was going to say plenty of) dodgy stations around that dilute their fuel with cheap cleaning spirits like benzine. They buy it for about .50c/l so it adds a huge markup for them. All the fuel distributor needs is a declaration that it's to be used for cleaning and away they go. Naturally you'll find this is usually only the smaller servos and usually the independents, which is why I always stick to a high volume company station. I might pay a bit more, but at least I know what I'm getting.
Unfortunately these guys are being forced to do this to compete with the big company-owned servos who can afford to discount the small blokes out of business, unless they resort to this sort of cheating.

Seldo there was an epidemic of this in Melbourne some years ago, Benzene has been controlled by the Kyoto legislation to 40ppm so if this practice still exists then its illegal and not so good for our health either.

[Mungrel]

This is purely from my own experince - nothing more, take what you will from it.

BP Ultimate - Geraldton W.A Mid - high 20 degree day. 273rwkw

Mobil Premium - Sandgate - Raining high teens / low 20s's - 278rwkw

And just for shits and giggles yesterday i filled up with E10 @ Shell in Geebung, got from the fuel station to Kiel Mountain (Sunshine Coast) and back to Sandgate on 1/4 of a tank (about 190kms)

Just my experience...

[phillbreeze]

Another, related issue...
Are there also inspectors that measure if the correct amount of lts are been dispenced?
There are two Caltex servos with a km of my place, i usually fill up as soon as i get the very low fuel warning, at one servo my car takes about 55litres at the other it takes about 65liters... what the?? But also the one that takes 65 liters seems to usually be a couple of cents/liter cheaper

[planetdavo]

I have always been under the impression that the greatest variable with the octane rating is actually the age of it since it was refined, rather than any mischevious shandy mixes. The longer it sits in tanks in the ground, the lower it's octane becomes.
Hence, stick with high volume, big brand sellers in areas that aren't (cough) rather poor suburbs, or else pay a fortune for a chemist to test your local fuel suppliers on a regular basis!

[Alister]

This is purely from my own experince - nothing more, take what you will from it.

BP Ultimate - Geraldton W.A Mid - high 20 degree day. 273rwkw

Mobil Premium - Sandgate - Raining high teens / low 20s's - 278rwkw

And just for shits and giggles yesterday i filled up with E10 @ Shell in Geebung, got from the fuel station to Kiel Mountain (Sunshine Coast) and back to Sandgate on 1/4 of a tank (about 190kms)

Just my experience...

Dear god, you filled up at Shell Geebung? I won't say anything or XLR8V8 will kick my arse. planetdavo is on the money - fill up with big brand servos, not in poor areas. I will say that I picked up contaminated fuel when I filled up with V-Power at Geebung one day before a shift at that very same servo.

Also, the octane rating of premium fuels declines quicker than standard ULP over the same period of time due to the higher octane/additives of the fuel.

[SS Enforcer]

Another, related issue...
Are there also inspectors that measure if the correct amount of lts are been dispenced?


Yes the meters are regularly checked for accuracy and a seal placed on the adjustment mechanism. I know of sites that also conduct their own tests to make sure the bowsers are accurate apart from the official testing.


As for the fuel itself it has been checked to make sure it's up to spec when it is made and or transported in bulk form to a major storage facility. Any deviation from advertised manufacterd specs that may occur would be at the point of sale via contamination in the underground storage tank usually.

If you buy your fuel from the large company sites you will be getting what you pay for.

Hey Boyley save your money and forget about the octane boost just tune your car properly instead.:)

cheers

[KCB50L]

I only ever use shell Vpower, only ever from one servo thats the one on the great western highway at Emu Plains, or if I'm not near home a shell on a major road that has alot of cars going in and out. I never refuel at small servos period.

[boyley]

Hey Boyley save your money and forget about the octane boost just tune your car properly instead.:)

cheers

Paul, I'm totally suspect of the fuel down here in Tassie mate. Speaking of longevity of fuel and using high volume sites I spoke to one fella at a servo in a remote town and he told me the 98 in the tank was four months old.

Anyhow my logging shows adding octane booster redues knock retard. In other words vehicles stay in the upper octane table longer.:)

[macca_779]

Paul, I'm totally suspect of the fuel down here in Tassie mate. Speaking of longevity of fuel and using high volume sites I spoke to one fella at a servo in a remote town and he told me the 98 in the tank was four months old.

Anyhow my logging shows adding octane booster redues knock retard. In other words vehicles stay in the upper octane table longer.:)

If you lower your upper timing table to meet MBT on 98RON you wont need to use octane booster or worry about your timing table dropping either.. Basically your running to much timing now as octane booster is only a band aid IMO.

[Dacious]

Firstly, five or ten Kw is nothing. If a cloud goes over the sun and the air gets more humid you could see a difference approaching that - or on different days.

Premium Unleaded is quite regulated. It must be yellow and nothing but. If they are substituting ULP it will be brown or green or purple. It must have a maximum of lead (yes, unleaded still has a small amount) and a minimum octane, and a maximum amount of nasties or bitterants.

There will be a difference because apart from some fuels like perhaps V-Power or Ultimate 98, the fuel distributors for the majors vend each other's product perhaps with their own additive cocktails, because it is cheaper than sending tankers all over the country.

Aviation fuel has to be retested frequently. What Shell used to sell as Racing 100 was just avgas that no longer passed muster for flying because it loses octane even sitting around in barrels.

If you are living in a remote area (like Tas) where fuel volumes sold are small, it might not be a good idea to have a tune running so close to the wind that old fuel will set it 'off'. That's probably the major factor - low sales = older fuel in the ground, more chance of water from condensation in the underground tanks when they are half-full and refilled on longer intervals.

[ADAM 26]

Yes, I can answer that.
There is a Government Department (Department of Environment and something else from memory?). I've seen the inspectors twice in three years at a servo I work at. I think they might be a Federal department since he was telling me horror stories from down in NSW (methanol in ULP, 91RON sold asd 98RON.

They come to the servo, identify themselves, ask for consent, and then take samples. When they recently tested fuel when I was there, all fuels were above the octane ratings. V Power was 98.2ROn fron memory.

methanol at servos! now that would be a good thing! i could cruise tonner to my hearts content!!!

[seldo]

A lot of this discussion has been done in another thread on here, but it is interesting to note that BP have a summer and winter brew. If the weather warms-up prematurely, and you get the winter brew in summer it pings easily in my car... before the knockers call BS - I have also verified this with BP.

[boyley]

If you lower your upper timing table to meet MBT on 98RON you wont need to use octane booster or worry about your timing table dropping either.. Basically your running to much timing now as octane booster is only a band aid IMO.

Interesting concept Macca, so you safety tune all your cars do you? Are we talking -2 degrees or more?

[macca_779]

Interesting concept Macca, so you safety tune all your cars do you? Are we talking -2 degrees or more?

It depends on what your already running and I nor anyone else would be able to give you an optimum timing table off the top of our heads without being with the car. I've done over 30 cars and not one of them has been the same but yes some have been similar. Its for this reason that I don't like doing mail orders for people. The 3 that I have done, 2 were for conversions (1 Landcruiser and 1 Zepher) and one was a previous customer that wanted to try something different but couldn't get to me. Those were all love jobs to help people out and I'll admit that none of them would have been optimal as I didn't want to risk it on a car I wasn't with.

So with that in mind yeah it could be 2deg, it could be 4, hell it could be to lean I really can't say.. But what I can say is that if its pingin its singin and thats not good.

[Mungrel]

Dear god, you filled up at Shell Geebung? I won't say anything or XLR8V8 will kick my arse. planetdavo is on the money - fill up with big brand servos, not in poor areas. I will say that I picked up contaminated fuel when I filled up with V-Power at Geebung one day before a shift at that very same servo.

Also, the octane rating of premium fuels declines quicker than standard ULP over the same period of time due to the higher octane/additives of the fuel.

Thanks for the headsup.

So what northside servo's would you suggest? Baring in mind, i'm not going to drive 100ks just to get better fuel... lol So long as it doesn't ping and isn't dodgy i'm happy.

[TAKEITEZ]

boyley i think you'll just have to stick to filling at BP Morty's or BP Riverside from now on...
these two servo's are possibly the bussiest in the whole Launceston region... and they're the only two i fill at where possible...

in hobart i still haven't worked it out, but because brighton is the only road into and out of hobart that 90% of people use, i tend to fill there most of the time...
fuel there is consistantly 2 - 3 cents more expensive than in Kingston say, but its a huge servo with 20 pumps compared to a little one with only 6 pumps... so they must be a safer bet???


but yeap...
keep working on the tune, and only buy juice from the big mobs and i think you'll be fine :)

[nthnbeachesguy]

Was told to steer clear of shell servos full stop, something about their fuel being pretty rubbish and not performing as well as the other 3 BP, Mobil and Caltex.

[Alister]

Thanks for the headsup.

So what northside servo's would you suggest? Baring in mind, i'm not going to drive 100ks just to get better fuel... lol So long as it doesn't ping and isn't dodgy i'm happy.

Coles Express Virginia (Sandgate Rd/Robinson Rd), Coles Express Nudgee (Nudgee Rd/Gateway Mwy), Coles Express Albany Creek (Albany Creek Rd/Old Northern Rd), and Coles Express Windsor (Lutwyche Rd). Geebung only sees 3000 - 4000 customers a week compared to Virginia 10 000 - 11 500 and Nudgee 20 000 - 22 000.


Was told to steer clear of shell servos full stop, something about their fuel being pretty rubbish and not performing as well as the other 3 BP, Mobil and Caltex.

Old wives tale.

[SS Enforcer]

Paul, I'm totally suspect of the fuel down here in Tassie mate. Speaking of longevity of fuel and using high volume sites I spoke to one fella at a servo in a remote town and he told me the 98 in the tank was four months old.

Anyhow my logging shows adding octane booster redues knock retard. In other words vehicles stay in the upper octane table longer.:)

Pull a cpl of degrees from where it gets KR and see if it still knocks.

There is a positive regarding fuel bing in the tank for 4 months .... thats all the water and other nasties will have settled at the bottom of the tank. :)

cheers

[boyley]

Pull a cpl of degrees from where it gets KR and see if it still knocks.

There is a positive regarding fuel bing in the tank for 4 months .... thats all the water and other nasties will have settled at the bottom of the tank. :)

cheers

Theres a couple fo things I'm working on at the moment. Its quite a complicated program this efilive....I'm off to fill up with that settled fuel:1peek: