Oct Motor - W427 vs GT-R vs GT vs LP560-4 [Archive] - Australian LS1 and Holden Forums

korrupt

09-09-2008, 07:47 PM

TLX

09-09-2008, 07:50 PM

Is the 181km/h correct on GTR trap speed?

korrupt

09-09-2008, 07:56 PM

Apparently so. It's listed twice in the magazine.

Lap times for Winton.

W427 : 1:42.1
GT : 1:40.1
GT-R : 1:36.3

No Lambo for that one, it seems.

TLX

09-09-2008, 07:59 PM

Apparently so. It's listed twice in the magazine.

Lap times for Winton.

W427 : 1:42.1
GT : 1:40.1
GT-R : 1:36.3

No Lambo for that one, it seems.

Okay.....the GTR's quick around Winton, pretty impressive to hose the W427 by 6 sec:confused:

Carby650

09-09-2008, 08:01 PM

Apparently so. It's listed twice in the magazine.

Lap times for Winton.

W427 : 1:42.1
GT : 1:40.1
GT-R : 1:36.3

No Lambo for that one, it seems.

The GT lap time being quicker really surprises me. Surely their must have been something wrong there. The GT is 0.3 slower to 100 yet is 0.2 quicker over the 1/4.
cheers
Carby650

quantanemo

09-09-2008, 08:23 PM

W427 - 0-100 : 4.8 0-400m : 12.9 @ 183.3km/h
GT-R - 0-100 : 3.9 0-400m : 12.0 @ 181.8km/h
GT - 0-100 : 5.1 0-400m : 12.7 @ 199.8km/h
Lambo - 0-100 : 3.7 (claimed) 0-400m : 11.4 @ 204km/h

Those times for the Ford GT are abysmal...what happened - did they say?

Quinny5.7L

09-09-2008, 08:35 PM

What a stupid test - a family sedan cum muscle car vs 3 road-going race cars. Why don't they do what they usually do and put the top HSV up against a BMW M5 or C63 Merc or something...? Putting a Commodore (irrespective of how much engine it has) against a GTR, GT & Lambo is pretty stupid. I can kind of understand the GTR because it is a similar price, but 2 completely different cars. Why do the car magazines always come up with such stupid tests? Lets put an Omega 3.6L up against a LP640 next shall we?

Okay.....the GTR's quick around Winton, pretty impressive to hose the W427 by 6 sec:confused:

The GTR was designed to be the fastest thing around a track this side of a Porsche GT2, so it is not that surprising really. What is surprising is that they managed to get all that performance and keep it under $200k... Nothing even comes close for the money. I can't wait to see some official tests on the new ZR1.

WLDLS1

09-09-2008, 08:42 PM

i would like to see that gt runs those times. i dont think so. and 199kph. what a lot of sh#t.
anyway i dont believe what they right in that magazine.

mustanger

09-09-2008, 08:44 PM

One of the Chief Honchos at Nissan was asked "Why is the GTR so cheap" ,He replied "Why are the more fancied exotics so expensive ".

M&Ms

09-09-2008, 08:45 PM

The October edition of Motor puts the W427 against the Nissan GT-R, Ford GT (not the FPV) and the Lambo Gallardo LP560-4. Haven't read the whole article yet, but here are the figures...

W427 - 0-100 : 4.8 0-400m : 12.9 @ 183.3km/h
GT-R - 0-100 : 3.9 0-400m : 12.0 @ 181.8km/h
GT - 0-100 : 5.1 0-400m : 12.7 @ 199.8km/h
Lambo - 0-100 : 3.7 (claimed) 0-400m : 11.4 @ 204km/h

Impressive figures, but I would have thought a better comparison would have been the M5 and C63 or whatever the AMG equivalent is. The GT-R appears to be modified too or least a development platform for some tuning mob.

It looks lke the GTR has hit it's speed limiter before the 400m mark. And those times for the GT, I think they can be improved by a whole second going by the times overseas mags get from them. Lambo is mighty quick though, and the W427 is about what I was expecting. Agree that the W427 is not supercar, but do we have to hear excuses from whingers after EVERY comparison test?? Test is done, this is how the HSV fares against the best supercars, whether you like it or not, learn to live with it!

mustanger

09-09-2008, 08:48 PM

Is the 181km/h correct on GTR trap speed?

Was probably hitting the limiter Tully.

That would be the first thing I would be removing :lol:

Quinny5.7L

09-09-2008, 09:04 PM

It looks lke the GTR has hit it's speed limiter before the 400m mark. And those times for the GT, I think they can be improved by a whole second going by the times overseas mags get from them. Lambo is mighty quick though, and the W427 is about what I was expecting. Agree that the W427 is not supercar, but do we have to hear excuses from whingers after EVERY comparison test?? Test is done, this is how the HSV fares against the best supercars, whether you like it or not, learn to live with it!

But who cares how it fares against supercars? Why not put it up against cars in its own class? $150000 HSV vs a $400000 Lambo.... what a wank....

mustanger

09-09-2008, 09:09 PM

But who cares how it fares against supercars? Why not put it up against cars in its own class? $150000 HSV vs a $400000 Lambo.... what a wank....

I think that you will find that all of these cars do not have a direct competitor and thats why they have been grouped together.It is not to say that one is better than the other. It is just to get tongues wagging and to give you an idea of their performance.

Quinny5.7L

09-09-2008, 09:23 PM

I think that you will find that all of these cars do not have a direct competitor and thats why they have been grouped together.It is not to say that one is better than the other. It is just to get tongues wagging and to give you an idea of their performance.

All of those cars have a direct competitor which would be more suitable for a comparison. It was just one of those "because we can" tests... the pointless kind that don't actually tell anyone anything except make everyone jealous of the journos because they got to thrash some really nice cars.

Hqcoupe350

09-09-2008, 09:35 PM

Pointless comparison, well done Motor...

Red CV8 R

09-09-2008, 09:44 PM

I think it is a cool comparison and I will probably pick up this issue of Motor mag. If the W427 had done better I am sure people would be praising the comparison. Its great that the W427 is considered worthy in this company. Also I know people will get their knickers in a knot but I still think the W427 is way to slow for what it is.

Carby650

09-09-2008, 10:35 PM

The GT lap time being quicker really surprises me. Surely their must have been something wrong there. The GT is 0.3 slower to 100 yet is 0.2 quicker over the 1/4.
cheers
Carby650

Dunce hat for me.... :rolleyes:
Just realised (by reading first post properly) that GT was not Falcon GT... Time for bed

cheers
Carby650

iloveholden

09-09-2008, 11:18 PM

I agree, another stupid comparsion, especially when the GTR has been tuned by some tuning house already and the rest are stock let alone they arnt all in the same price bracket nor same type of car. :doh:

Alex(AUS)

10-09-2008, 12:58 AM

Apparently so. It's listed twice in the magazine.

Lap times for Winton.

W427 : 1:42.1
GT : 1:40.1
GT-R : 1:36.3

No Lambo for that one, it seems.

I can vaguely remember a 1:42.0 for the VE GTS around Winton :confused:

I am sure I can dig it up if anyone wants the exact issue.

Alex

Strick

10-09-2008, 03:07 AM

This is a bit of a pointless test. however probably still worth the read, but taken with a grain of salt. Would love to see a comparison between a few cars worth 155 000 give or take 15k, now that would be a great read. Wonder why they havent done this.

sandmanls1

10-09-2008, 05:54 AM

I think the tyres on the GT were shagged it belongs to the Supercar club they mentioned they were getting a lot of wheelspin as those times look very slow.

Martin_D

10-09-2008, 06:51 AM

I havent read the test yet, however if the GTR was indeed 'tuned' then one of the very first things to do is disable the 180km/h speed limiter. Rumour is it was Haltechs car, which with their plug in ECU in place to remove the limits has run 11.1 @ 205km/h...so for this test it was stock, and kept off its normal 11.6 - 11.7 pace by the limiter :cool:

Here it is in action with a 'tune up' and no speed limiter -
YouTube - Haltech R35 GTR Runs 11.1 @ 124mph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU_EUvR4RW4)

TLX

10-09-2008, 07:21 AM

Was probably hitting the limiter Tully.

That would be the first thing I would be removing :lol:

Me too John...got mine booked in already :)

CarlFST60L

10-09-2008, 08:05 AM

I am impressed that it gets within 6 seconds, but worried (if what Alex says is correct) that the GTS also did 1:42... Does anyone that knows Winton know if all these times are off pace for stock cars?

Personally, I don't give any weight Motor's test's/figures unless they have a pro behind the wheel, even then they have a habbit of forgetting some key points, like, it was wet, had a car full of people, only had one lap to test, drifted every corner because it was 'fun', did the test at the end of the day after they had been flogging the rear's until they were bald etc etc

Pickles

10-09-2008, 08:08 AM

Can't see the sense of such a comparison-three different sorts of cars, with three different sorts of characteristics. But yes, I guess it will sell a few more copies.
Cheers, Pickles.

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 08:19 AM

........................

Those times for the Ford GT are abysmal...what happened - did they say?Abysmal..?? the GT was quicker than the W427 over the quarter and lapped Winton quicker than the W427 too. Perhaps the abysmal statement should have been directed at the $150k 7.0L powerplant? :1peek: ....

SHANESVZSS

10-09-2008, 08:50 AM

must say i agree with tuna on the performance of the w427 , altho id be more inclined to see real world times ofter a few more ks..stilla monster IMO!!

FlatfootV8

10-09-2008, 09:05 AM

Im going to put a bet on this topic becomes another bash the W427 again..... :1peek:

Quinny5.7L

10-09-2008, 09:11 AM

........................

Abysmal..?? the GT was quicker than the W427 over the quarter and lapped Winton quicker than the W427 too. Perhaps the abysmal statement should have been directed at the $150k 7.0L powerplant? :1peek: ....

The Ford GT is like $250000, and wasn't much quicker than the W427.

The W427 isn't $150k because of its engine - you need to remember the amount of money taken to design and build the car, and they are only making 427 units, not tens of thousands of cars, so they need to up the price to make their money back.

Yes, the W427 seems to be a little underpowered considering it has a 7.0L race engine. You need to remember that this is exactly the same engine as in the Corvette Z06, but it is in a 4 door body which is 400kg heavier. The LS7 is derived from the C5R and C6R race cars, where it makes 700hp reliably enough for 24 hour racing.

People seem to forget how much power 500hp actually is. It has been detuned to "only" 505hp, in a bog-stock factory Commodore which comes with a full factory warranty. 12.8 sec over the quarter is not slow by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone who has driven a 12sec car on the street should know that.

Only a few years ago 12 sec quarter mile times in production cars was reserved only for the ultra-exotics. Remember that the Lamborghini Diablo had a 5.7L V12, mid-mounted, with 530hp, big fat tyres etc - and it used to run 12.5s. Remember that the Ferrari 360 Modena, Aston Martin DB7, Lamborghini Countach and 993/996 Porsche 911 Turbo were all in the low 13s in stock form - and that was considered damn fast then.

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 09:12 AM

Im going to put a bet on this topic becomes another bash the W427 again..... :1peek:
Lets hope not....I have a feeling some might take my last post as a bash, but my point was that the performance figures for HSV's new W427 are pretty average for a car with its displacement, not to mention pricetag..

Not to mention that the GT (im pressuming the Ford GT, if not i retract my previous post) is quicker over the 1/4 and around Winton, however i acknowledge the times could vary depending on who was driving which car on the day....

The Ford GT is like $250000, and wasn't much quicker than the W427.

The W427 isn't $150k because of its engine - you need to remember the amount of money taken to design and build the car, and they are only making 427 units, not tens of thousands of cars, so they need to up the price to make their money back.

Yes, the W427 seems to be a little underpowered considering it has a 7.0L race engine. You need to remember that this is exactly the same engine as in the Corvette Z06, but it is in a 4 door body which is 400kg heavier. The LS7 is derived from the C5R and C6R race cars, where it makes 700hp reliably enough for 24 hour racing.

People seem to forget how much power 500hp actually is. It has been detuned to "only" 505hp, in a bog-stock factory Commodore which comes with a full factory warranty. 12.8 sec over the quarter is not slow by any stretch of the imagination - and anyone who has driven a 12sec car on the street should know that.

Only a few years ago 12 sec quarter mile times in production cars was reserved only for the ultra-exotics. Remember that the Lamborghini Diablo had a 5.7L V12, mid-mounted, with 530hp, big fat tyres etc - and it used to run 12.5s. Remember that the Ferrari 360 Modena, Aston Martin DB7, Lamborghini Countach and 993/996 Porsche 911 Turbo were all in the low 13s in stock form - and that was considered damn fast then.

Ok, so this is where i have gone wrong, i assumed the Ford GT was the aussie Ford, i dont know of any $250k Ford GT's..

Curtis-R

10-09-2008, 09:20 AM

Ok, so this is where i have gone wrong, i assumed the Ford GT was the aussie Ford, i dont know of any $250k Ford GT's..

I'm sure you would have seen or heard of these..

http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/ford-gt.jpg

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 09:30 AM

I'm sure you would have seen or heard of these..

http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/ford-gt.jpg
To be honest, yes ive seen pictures of them before, but had no idea what they where...

FlatfootV8

10-09-2008, 09:56 AM

Oh well the W427 is the most practical of the bunch so that would be a bonus.

seedyrom

10-09-2008, 10:02 AM

BOOT SPACE PEOPLE!!!

Are you forgetting the boot space? :rofl:

VX2VESS

10-09-2008, 10:04 AM

was a gtr sitting behind the pits at the Muscle car Masters on the w/end.

nice looking car, might be the one Tuna mentioned.

yes a Z06 against those cars would be a better comparison.

i want to see Top Gear get hold of the W427, bring some spare tyres

Marco

10-09-2008, 10:21 AM

BOOT SPACE PEOPLE!!!

Are you forgetting the boot space? :rofl:

And the towing ability! I bet the Lambo couldn't tow a horse float!

:stick:

DuffMan

10-09-2008, 10:31 AM

The Ford GT is like $250000, and wasn't much quicker than the W427.

I just flicked through the mag (didn't buy it... sorry Amac :lol:) and I'm pretty sure they had the price of the Ford GT at $600000, not $250000. Included in that cost was right hand drive convertion though.

Looked like it was raining in the pictures too. If they did the straight line performance tests in the rain, that would explain the poor times for the GT and W427 being that they're the only RWD cars in the comparo.

That said, every test of the W427 I've seen so far puts it in the high 12's for the 1/4 mile. As the thread on Marks one showed they're not really lacking power in stock form, so what gives? Crap driver? Bad surface? Bad weather?

RED R8

10-09-2008, 10:49 AM

Good test I say...its good to see a range of cars compared it gives you an idea of what you get or should get for a price. I think the W427 did well.

Good to see my cam only 68K Clubby in full street trim can match it with a W427 and GT.

sirhsv

10-09-2008, 11:03 AM

Not a good comparison, two mid engined supercars, a AWD coupe versus a four door sedan. It would've been better to put the W427 up against an M5 or a Mercedes 63AMG. Oh well I'm still gonna check the mag out anyway.

Ghosn

10-09-2008, 11:06 AM

Not overly concerned about that comparison, moreso the lack of performance from the W427. I'm sure it would be a nice car to drive but 12.9 is pretty lame for a performance car that will set u back the other side of 150k.

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 11:07 AM

vlcalais8

10-09-2008, 11:25 AM

One thing I noticed was the 1:42.1 around winton for W427, F6 clocked it at 1:43.5 (lets not get into modding and such). Is the extra price worth that extra performance?

Carby

10-09-2008, 12:48 PM

Interesting but TOTALLY pointless COMPARO..............

boyley

10-09-2008, 01:15 PM

macca_779

10-09-2008, 01:18 PM

Hang on mate HSV are a tuning house, are they not?

When HSV does individual custom tunes then I think you could call them a tuning house.

Alex(AUS)

10-09-2008, 01:25 PM

One thing I noticed was the 1:42.1 around winton for W427, F6 clocked it at 1:43.5 (lets not get into modding and such). Is the extra price worth that extra performance?

As per my previous post, the VE GTS lapped Winton in at 1:42.0. I dont have the mag yet ... is there any reason that the W427 is slower?

Hang on mate HSV are a tuning house, are they not?

No. I guess HSV is as much a tuning house as AMG or M. They are an actual car manufacturer ... not aftermarket.

Alex

boyley

10-09-2008, 01:28 PM

When HSV does individual custom tunes then I think you could call them a tuning house.

Disagree there mate, HSV produce performance cars on a GM platform. Agreed this is detuned just a tad but I would expect HSV to be producing performance tunes quite different to that of Holden. Take the MAFless tuning in the 300kW GTS's for instance, this was not revolutionary but it was not the norm either.

No. I guess HSV is as much a tuning house as AMG or M. They are an actual car manufacturer ... not aftermarket.

Alex

Hey Alex none of them are a car manufacturer mate, they are all after market. They all buy cars from motor manufacturers dont they.

Cheers Boyley

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 02:03 PM

I wonder if Mercedes & BMW are not sharing their rivals to the media (M3, M5 / C63, E63) for a reason - you would think they would love the chance to prove what all the fuss is about and show how their cars can totally dominate ours - or can they ?

Red CV8 R

10-09-2008, 02:22 PM

Wheels test the W427 against an AMG Mercedes in the current issue.

AMG was faster.

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 02:44 PM

Wheels test the W427 against an AMG Mercedes in the current issue.

AMG was faster.

Yes it did / pretty close though >

AMG CLS63
0-60 2.6
0-80 3.7
0-100 4.7
0-120 6.5
0-140 8.0
0-160 10.0
0-400m 12.8
80-120 3.2/4.8/7.4

W427
0-60 2.7
0-80 3.9
0-100 4.9
0-120 6.6
0-140 8.1
0-160 10.1
0-400m 13.0
80-120 3.1/4.7/6.1

Fuel economy >
AMG CLS63 14.3l
W427 13.4l :bow:

Boot capacity >
AMG CLS63 495L
W427 496L :bow:

Now resale . . . .

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 02:49 PM

Yes it did / pretty close though >

AMG CLS63
0-60 2.6
0-80 3.7
0-100 4.7
0-120 6.5
0-140 8.0
0-160 10.0
0-400m 12.8
80-120 3.2/4.8/7.4

W427
0-60 2.7
0-80 3.9
0-100 4.9
0-120 6.6
0-140 8.1
0-160 10.1
0-400m 13.0
80-120 3.1/4.7/6.1

Fuel economy >
AMG CLS63 14.3l
W427 13.4l :bow:

Boot capacity >
AMG CLS63 495L
W427 496L :bow:

Now resale . . . . Out of curiosity, what is the cubic inch difference between the AMG and W427 engines?

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 02:55 PM

Out of curiosity, what is the cubic inch difference between the AMG and W427 engines?

How many gears does each one have?

Quinny5.7L

10-09-2008, 02:55 PM

Out of curiosity, what is the cubic inch difference between the AMG and W427 engines?

6.3 vs 7.0. The Merc engines are pretty well tuned though, the LS7 is detuned to buggery....

GODSMACK

10-09-2008, 03:09 PM

How many gears does each one have? How the f**k should i know.... I didn't even know the diff in CI's..

Chances are you took my last post as a dig, when i was actually asking a serious q...

6.3 vs 7.0. The Merc engines are pretty well tuned though, the LS7 is detuned to buggery.... I meant engine cubic inches, or did i mean CC's... i.e is the 7.0L a 427ci engine etc etc...??

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 03:11 PM

How the f**k should i know.... I didn't even know the diff in CI's..

Chances are you took my last post as a dig, when i was actually asking a serious q...

I meant engine cubic inches, or did i mean CC's... i.e is the 7.0L a 427ci engine etc etc...??

:rofl: I did take that as a dig (sorry) / The AMG's use the capacity in there names CLS63 = 6.3 Litre (actually 6.2 but they rounded up!)

1 litres = 61.0237441 cubic inches

6.3l = 384ci

6.0l = 366ci

CarlFST60L

10-09-2008, 03:20 PM

Just to put things into perspective. Its about 15kw per 10th over the 1/4 mile for the VT/VE platforms so:

LS7 375Kw 0.00
LS3 317Kw +0.3866 (Slower over 400m)
LS2 307Kw +0.433 (Slower over 400m), 0.05 between LS3 and LS2

Example, if the LS7 ran 13.0, the LS3 would run 13.38 and LS2 13.433

I think some of you are expecting the impossible as stock for stock the math adds up. I also think because we mod our cars and run 12's 'easy' these days people expect more. (Even though some people don't realize that running a 12.9 on factory rubber isnt always as easy as people make it seem)

Also, I am 100% confident that if you put some time and effort into it, they will run 12.5 or better from factory. People have ran 13.0 stock with VE's ( I hear of 12.9's, but nothing firm).

Another thing, I have had my car go from 13.5 stock to 13.0 with mod's and it was a BIG difference in performance, then to go from 13.0 to 12.4 was a HUGE difference.

PS, loving the W427 :bow:

quantanemo

10-09-2008, 03:59 PM

........................

Abysmal..?? the GT was quicker than the W427 over the quarter and lapped Winton quicker than the W427 too. Perhaps the abysmal statement should have been directed at the $150k 7.0L powerplant? :1peek: ....

Na, abysmal cos the GT has done 3.6 0-100 and 11.2 0-400 thats all. As been mentioned though it was in the wet, so that explains it slightly. Good to see all has been cleared up :)

boyley

10-09-2008, 04:03 PM

Silly question but whats the W signify in the W427

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 04:09 PM

Silly question but whats the W signify in the W427

Worth it !

Mega76

10-09-2008, 04:14 PM

I think W is for Walkinshaw. Could be wrong though.....

Carby

10-09-2008, 04:15 PM

Holden Man

10-09-2008, 04:25 PM

Interesting to see that the W427 was quicker in the 80-120 trap in all three gears tested. Also interesting to note that the F6 is way quicker than the W427 it's best being 2.7 seconds to the W427's 3.1 !!

Yes the F6 is a weapon but I have seen a 2.6sec time 80-120 for the W427 in it's first test a couple of months ago (Wheels or Motor can't remember).

When will we see the F6 vs W427 grudge match :woot:

CarlFST60L

10-09-2008, 05:04 PM

Alex(AUS)

10-09-2008, 05:19 PM

Interesting to see that the W427 was quicker in the 80-120 trap in all three gears tested. Also interesting to note that the F6 is way quicker than the W427 it's best being 2.7 seconds to the W427's 3.1 !!

Take a look at the 100-190km/h tests ... last time I checked the F6 was around 1.5 seconds behind ... this equals night and day difference in straight line performance. I think the F6 crowd is getting a little carried away about how good the F6 is. It is currently having a very difficult time with the VE LS2/LS3 results both in a straight line and around the track but some Ford fans think it is worthy of a crack at the LS7 LOL

Alex

FlatfootV8

10-09-2008, 05:25 PM

Take a look at the 100-190km/h test ... last time I checked the F6 was around 1.5 seconds behind ... this equals night and day difference in straight line performance. I think the F6 crowd is getting a little carried away about how good the F6 is. It is currently having a very difficult time with the VE LS2/LS3 results both in a straight line and around the track but some Ford fans think it is worthy of a crack at the LS7 LOL

Alex

Some are getting as arrogant as turbo skyline owners really....

CarlFST60L

10-09-2008, 05:36 PM

Some are getting as arrogant as turbo skyline owners really....

hahahaha, good call

flappist

10-09-2008, 08:11 PM

lux_06

10-09-2008, 09:59 PM

fro everyone carrying on about the comparo, maybe read it first, then slag it. they clearly state "this is not a straight out comparo, but a collection of 4 hot cars from 4 different countries"

id rather read that then 4 seperate reviews of each car on its own... cos that can be found anywhere on the net these days....

Brettly-2008

10-09-2008, 11:20 PM

Take a look at the 100-190km/h tests ... last time I checked the F6 was around 1.5 seconds behind ... this equals night and day difference in straight line performance. I think the F6 crowd is getting a little carried away about how good the F6 is. It is currently having a very difficult time with the VE LS2/LS3 results both in a straight line and around the track but some Ford fans think it is worthy of a crack at the LS7 LOL

Alex

Good old torque. Out of curiosity, has anyone calculated and/or found a formula for calculating the torque/pwr advantages for a given measurement of forced induction? For example, is a turbo'd F6's 'forced' capacity larger than a NA 7.0 LS7?

And if it is (which I assume it might be on paper), why is it slower in the aforementioned 100-190km/h tests?

vlcalais8

11-09-2008, 12:03 AM

there's no F6 brigade, people are just bringing up some points and discussing. As it stands the W427 is HSV's hero car, F6 is FPV's hero car of course it will be bought up in any W427 related thread

Alex(AUS)

11-09-2008, 12:59 AM

Good old torque. Out of curiosity, has anyone calculated and/or found a formula for calculating the torque/pwr advantages for a given measurement of forced induction? For example, is a turbo'd F6's 'forced' capacity larger than a NA 7.0 LS7?

And if it is (which I assume it might be on paper), why is it slower in the aforementioned 100-190km/h tests?

I am not sure what you are asking here but generally in racing circles a forced induction car is considered equal to that of a 1.7* larger caparcity N/A car of similar proportions / type. This should make the 4.0T equal to approx 6.8L in N/A form. Therefore, results should be close. However, the LS7 is by far a more perfromance oriented engine and therefore it is significantly better. It certainly punches more than 0.2L worth.

Also, I have found that 10rwkw = 1mph and 1tenth all other things being equal. The W427 even without a significant power increase over F6/GTS at the rwkw manages to be much faster. One thing to also consider is that 60kg is also equal to 1mph and 1tenth. Does anyone have the weight differences on hand?

I hope that is what you were looking for.

Alex

Martin_D

11-09-2008, 06:34 AM

Some are getting as arrogant as turbo skyline owners really....

You got that right! There would however be time enough after a lap around the track to book in for some behaviour modification before the rest crossed the line :lol:

KPWISHN

11-09-2008, 07:26 AM

GTR hands down winner imo. Anyone see the results from the Targa west rally this year. :)

I can't wait until we can head down to the Nissan shop and pick one up. I hope all things are aligned in the wallet department so I can go buy one.

Apples and oranges though with a comparo like Motor is running. The W427 is way out of it's league. It has awesome power and that's about it.

BTW, that Ford GT has some bloody pace over the line too.

CarlFST60L

11-09-2008, 08:17 AM

You got that right! There would however be time enough after a lap around the track to book in for some behaviour modification before the rest crossed the line :lol:

I think he was referring to Skyline owners ad your reffering to the Nissan R35 GTR. Sure there are some bloody fast Skylines around, but 99% of them in Sydney are nothing special.

FlatfootV8

11-09-2008, 08:21 AM

I think he was referring to older model Skyline not the Nissan R35 GTR

Yup the R35 is a mighty beast of a car no doubt but yeah I was referring to older skyline models.... It must be something in the turbo's that effects their brain or something... :confused:

Carby

11-09-2008, 12:43 PM

I am confused as to why it is unfair to compare a $155,000 W427 to a $400,000 Lambo because it costs 2 to 3 times as much

BUT

it is perfectly ok to compare a $60k F6 to a $155k W427 that costs 2 to 3 times as much?

If you want to call yourself a SUPERCAR then you have to fight SUPERVILLIANS don't you............

Hmmm...... easy one, the F6 and W427 are both 4 door 5 seat cars of similar dimension and are on top of the food chain for their respective marques.

The Lambo is an exotic two door purpose designed weapon - it would be more appropriate to compare it to a 350Z than 4 door sedan.:)

VIXEN-T

11-09-2008, 01:17 PM

:rofl: the F6 is $60k and doesnt have a race prepped 7.0litre engine. Just the same 4.0litre I6 ford has been using for the last 5yrs with revised induction system its $90k less than the W427 but for not much less performance. None the less still an awesome machine the W427, i dont think the comparison was to see which was the faster vehicle coz they know the lambo will maul them all, maybe they did it just for the hell of it coz they can lol

RED R8

11-09-2008, 01:24 PM

What would the W427 be worth in 20 years time compared to the F6 ?

The GTS-R was not that fantastic in its day yet now commands stupid prices like the Walky, VK grpA , etc etc you don't need race heritage just plenty of cashed up bogans to drive prices up.

vlcalais8

11-09-2008, 02:08 PM

MOTOR sort of shot themselves in the foot with the latest mag, on the cover you see "W427 takes on the world" maybe "a slice of the Worlds finest" or similar would have been better

flappist

11-09-2008, 02:13 PM

Hmmm...... easy one, the F6 and W427 are both 4 door 5 seat cars of similar dimension and are on top of the food chain for their respective marques.

The Lambo is an exotic two door purpose designed weapon - it would be more appropriate to compare it to a 350Z than 4 door sedan.:)

No the lambo is 5 times the price of a 350Z (which you infer must also be an exotic purposed designed weapon), the one that is 2/5th the price of the Lambo ($150k) is the Nissan GTR. I wonder if there will be a comparison to that?? :)

So comparing the W427 to Merc S65 AMG or BMW M5 Hartge would be more suitable? Or is it only a fair comparision when the W427 wins?

One last point.

The W427 is a Commodore chassis fitted with an engine transplanted from a top of the line Corvette, an exotic purposed designed weapon, the standard engined top of the food chain Commodore is the GTS but comparing THAT to the F6 just starts wars doesn't it?

As I stated above, if the W427 is, in fact, a SUPERCAR then it must do battle with other SUPERCARS.

If, on the other hand, it is as you seem to proport just an ordinary car with a special bigger engine not found in any other model to make it "the top of its food chain" then it is only fair that it gets compared to other ordinary cars with special bigger engines.

I look forward to the W427 vs Mazda 6 MPS vs Toyota TRD, I reckon I know which will win.........

Holden Man

11-09-2008, 02:27 PM

Probably the FAIREST comparison would be a W427 vs W427 :jester:
(maybe have different colours)

STATIE

11-09-2008, 02:29 PM

Nope - Black would always win.:rofl:

SHANESVZSS

11-09-2008, 02:31 PM

how much is the gt-r just out of couriosity?? (aus$$)..

flappist

11-09-2008, 02:50 PM

how much is the gt-r just out of couriosity?? (aus$$)..

If you mean the Nissan GTR, the projected price is $150k + ORC. I was thinking of buying one but am not so sure now, they seem to be a bit to fragile and high maintenance for my driving needs.

And the black one would only win if "number of times it needs to be washed" is excluded.... :)

Carby

11-09-2008, 03:09 PM

No the lambo is 5 times the price of a 350Z (which you infer must also be an exotic purposed designed weapon), the one that is 2/5th the price of the Lambo ($150k) is the Nissan GTR. I wonder if there will be a comparison to that?? :)

So comparing the W427 to Merc S65 AMG or BMW M5 Hartge would be more suitable? Or is it only a fair comparision when the W427 wins?

One last point.

The W427 is a Commodore chassis fitted with an engine transplanted from a top of the line Corvette, an exotic purposed designed weapon, the standard engined top of the food chain Commodore is the GTS but comparing THAT to the F6 just starts wars doesn't it?

As I stated above, if the W427 is, in fact, a SUPERCAR then it must do battle with other SUPERCARS.

If, on the other hand, it is as you seem to proport just an ordinary car with a special bigger engine not found in any other model to make it "the top of its food chain" then it is only fair that it gets compared to other ordinary cars with special bigger engines.

I look forward to the W427 vs Mazda 6 MPS vs Toyota TRD, I reckon I know which will win.........

What are you on about (or just what are you on??:))

You're happy to have the W427 against the Lambo but not your 350Z? Of course neither are comparable, the cynicism of my mentioning the 350Z was lost on you.

Sorry, but please step back and have a reality check, the GTS is no longer top of HSV's food chain (what is this "standard" food chain rubbish?) the W427 takes that position. The F6 is still FPV's top dog.

You got one thing right - the M5 and AMG Benz are the W427's more natural competitors - they (WHEELS Magazine) have already tested the W427 against the CLK63 and the W427 was very competitive.

As for you last comment, no else is suggesting such a ludicrous comparison, what prompts you to do so? Do you think that all of us LS1 types only like Holden winning war stories? if so you are way of the mark. My smart alec retort to such a notion is that the Aurion TRD and MPS would provide a 350Z far greater opposition.............

flappist

11-09-2008, 03:32 PM

What are you on about (or just what are you on??:))

You're happy to have the W427 against the Lambo but not your 350Z? Of course neither are comparable, the cynicism of my mentioning the 350Z was lost on you.

Sorry, but please step back and have a reality check, the GTS is no longer top of HSV's food chain (what is this "standard" food chain rubbish?) the W427 takes that position. The F6 is still FPV's top dog.

You got one thing right - the M5 and AMG Benz are the W427's more natural competitors - they (WHEELS Magazine) have already tested the W427 against the CLK63 and the W427 was very competitive.

As for you last comment, no else is suggesting such a ludicrous comparison, what prompts you to do so? Do you think that all of us LS1 types only like Holden winning war stories? if so you are way of the mark. My smart alec retort to such a notion is that the Aurion TRD and MPS would provide a 350Z far greater opposition.............

My original reply was based on several members posting that the comparo was unfair due to the price differences, nothing more.

My point was that if it is ok to compare one car to another when there is a 2.5 to 1 variation (W427 vs F6) then why is it not ok to compare one car to another when there is a 2.5 to 1 price difference (Lambo to W427)?

You are the one who got defensive with the 5 seat, sedan etc etc etc.

For you to say the the W427 is NOT a purpose built weapon is just silly. It has one purpose and one purpose only, to be the most powerful quickest car built in Australia and be way ahead of everything else at the time. The only other production cars IMHO to hold this title (for a while) were BF F6, VT2 GTS, VS2 GTS-R, A9X, GTHO Phase 3 and XR GT.

Everything else was only slightly ahead of its opposition and compatriots.

quantanemo

11-09-2008, 03:39 PM

well.... the Ford GT is technically the top of the Ford pile...not the F6....:hide:

CarlFST60L

11-09-2008, 03:47 PM

well.... the Ford GT is technically the top of the Ford pile...not the F6....:hide:

No more than a Z06, or better yet, ZR1. I would love it if one day HSV would buy in vette chassis and make a real supercar :bow:

Carby

11-09-2008, 03:51 PM

FLAPPIST

Yes the W427 is a purpose built weapon (not that I think I said that is it wasn't:confused:), but given it's antecedents we know it is not in the Lambo class and the comparo with such a vehicle was interesting but not enlightening.

As you indicated I would love to see a test against the M5, the long time 4 door sedan Champ.

gmeup

11-09-2008, 05:14 PM

My original reply was based on several members posting that the comparo was unfair due to the price differences, nothing more.

My point was that if it is ok to compare one car to another when there is a 2.5 to 1 variation (W427 vs F6) then why is it not ok to compare one car to another when there is a 2.5 to 1 price difference (Lambo to W427)?

You are the one who got defensive with the 5 seat, sedan etc etc etc.

For you to say the the W427 is NOT a purpose built weapon is just silly. It has one purpose and one purpose only, to be the most powerful quickest car built in Australia and be way ahead of everything else at the time. The only other production cars IMHO to hold this title (for a while) were BF F6, VT2 GTS, VS2 GTS-R, A9X, GTHO Phase 3 and XR GT.

Everything else was only slightly ahead of its opposition and compatriots.

I think the main point the above posters where trying to make was that it is unfair to compare a 4 door 5 seat RWD Family sadan Chassis against a 2 door awd coupe.

clubbie

11-09-2008, 06:09 PM

flappist

11-09-2008, 07:15 PM

Quantanemo is right the GT is top of the ford tree......by a mile.

Now ignore flappist.....he is still having withdrawal symptoms from selling his quick F6 and buying a hairdressers car....that's gotta hurt:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

As for the the "why compare them" question surely you guys can not be serious. I would ask "why not". Think about it. Your a journo and you get to drive $500k plus cars from Ford and Lamborghini against $150k Nissan and Holden. That's not unfair.....to me that's a dream job.

AMAC if you read this I will accept the lucky ba$tard drive at my expense.:rofl:

Calm down people.

The most noise should be why is the GTR is only $150k.....and so fugging good (even if it's a bit portly).....around Winton it owned Fords best by nearly 4 seconds a lap and the family hauler by nearly 6 seconds a lap......hmmm

On the other hand, in Feb when I needed a new car my choices were a supersceded BF2 F6 or supersceded LS2 GTS. So rather than buy old tech that I didn't want and make yet another enormous capital loss when I buy something I actually do WANT, be that a GTR, W427, M3, FG F6 or whatever, I chose as my work car a vehicle with reasionable performance and a proven better than 70% resale after 2 years which is about when I change cars.
So when you go to trade in and you are told that your pride and joy is worth about 30% so you sell it privately after lots of effort for 35% just think again how hurt I must be.........

John_

12-09-2008, 01:12 AM

Apparently so. It's listed twice in the magazine.

Lap times for Winton.

W427 : 1:42.1
GT : 1:40.1
GT-R : 1:36.3

No Lambo for that one, it seems.

Motor August 2008 (Winton track times)

EVO IX - 1:40.2 - ($56,789 brand new)
EVO X - 1:40.5

It kind of puts it all in perspective. The EVO IX is the giant killer of the century for the money. 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427. Hell even the heavier EVO X is nearly 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427.

ls2_297

12-09-2008, 01:39 AM

Motor August 2008 (Winton track times)

EVO IX - 1:40.2 - ($56,789 brand new)
EVO X - 1:40.5

It kind of puts it all in perspective. The EVO IX is the giant killer of the century for the money. 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427. Hell even the heavier EVO X is nearly 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427.

It's a pointless exercise comparing laptimes that have occured in different days/track conditions.

payaya

12-09-2008, 05:57 AM

I am not sure what you are asking here but generally in racing circles a forced induction car is considered equal to that of a 1.7* larger caparcity N/A car of similar proportions / type. This should make the 4.0T equal to approx 6.8L in N/A form. Therefore, results should be close. However, the LS7 is by far a more perfromance oriented engine and therefore it is significantly better. It certainly punches more than 0.2L worth.

Also, I have found that 10rwkw = 1mph and 1tenth all other things being equal. The W427 even without a significant power increase over F6/GTS at the rwkw manages to be much faster. One thing to also consider is that 60kg is also equal to 1mph and 1tenth. Does anyone have the weight differences on hand?

I hope that is what you were looking for.

Alex

So taking into consideration the NA 4.0L the Turbo should be 340KW & 680NM?

So taking into consideration the 10RWKW = 1mph, the NA Falcon should be 50rw kw less (generous) or 5 MPH?

Your calculations are too flawed!

Also it was unfair to compare the cars, but look what happened! The GTR which is one of the cheapest hosed everything that came up to it.

Martin_D

12-09-2008, 06:37 AM

FlatfootV8

12-09-2008, 06:52 AM

Motor August 2008 (Winton track times)

EVO IX - 1:40.2 - ($56,789 brand new)
EVO X - 1:40.5

It kind of puts it all in perspective. The EVO IX is the giant killer of the century for the money. 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427. Hell even the heavier EVO X is nearly 2 seconds a lap faster than the W427.

Hey lets compare the W427 to a Suzuki Hayabusa or a SR71 Blackbird or why not compare it to a Veyron. :smilesandbanana:

GODSMACK

12-09-2008, 08:22 AM

On the other hand, in Feb when I needed a new car my choices were a supersceded BF2 F6 or supersceded LS2 GTS. So rather than buy old tech that I didn't want and make yet another enormous capital loss when I buy something I actually do WANT, be that a GTR, W427, M3, FG F6 or whatever, I chose as my work car a vehicle with reasionable performance and a proven better than 70% resale after 2 years which is about when I change cars.
So when you go to trade in and you are told that your pride and joy is worth about 30% so you sell it privately after lots of effort for 35% just think again how hurt I must be......... As a former owner of the same hairdressers car, ( i no longer do hair, i now do nails) i can assure you reasonable performance does not mean a Honda Accord or Mazda 6 can keep up with you on a rolling start!
The 350Z have fantastic handling, and look hot IMHO, but performance is a let down.. The V6 may have won several awards, but what other V6's are they comparing it too?
The only guys I know who are happy with their Z's are those who have the APS TT system or S/C.. Other than that, the others have sold their Z's and purchased an Evo or STI and the odd V8. I enjoyed the attention the 350Z brings with it, i soon forgot about it once giving the SS a hit and realising how good a V8 feels.

P.S. How much do you charge for a haircut?

Excellent

12-09-2008, 09:22 AM

Wind back to 1990.....the gap between GTR and the competition back then is the same vast chasm that still exists today in 2008. Thats the true genius of this new Nissan, and why the discerning performance car buyer will make it a 'must have' addition to the garage. Its raw pace is staggering...trust me on that one ;) :bow:

Shame you have to fork out another $10K in servicing costs at around the 80K mark. For that money, you can almost get a spare engine for the W427. And what about new tyres for the GTR - they're exclusive again. Extravagant expenses for those who can afford to own them. It's a good thing owners of the W427 don't need to even think about these ownership nuances.

Martin_D

12-09-2008, 10:37 AM

I wont be forking out $10K for an 80,000 service I can assure you of that (If I ever stop dreaming and actually get a car) :)
And the tyres? Although there isnt official pricing in Aus that I have laid hands on, the RE070R run-flat as used on the R35 GTR is pretty cheap. Found a listing for the rears (285/35/20) at $378 US. Not bad value at all when you consider how good they are :cool:
Tyres maketh the car though thats for sure, so dont scrimp on the real deal. I doubt if any 427 owners will bat an eyelid at fitting premium rubber come replacement time ;)

flappist

12-09-2008, 03:13 PM

As a former owner of the same hairdressers car, ( i no longer do hair, i now do nails) i can assure you reasonable performance does not mean a Honda Accord or Mazda 6 can keep up with you on a rolling start!
The 350Z have fantastic handling, and look hot IMHO, but performance is a let down.. The V6 may have won several awards, but what other V6's are they comparing it too?
The only guys I know who are happy with their Z's are those who have the APS TT system or S/C.. Other than that, the others have sold their Z's and purchased an Evo or STI and the odd V8. I enjoyed the attention the 350Z brings with it, i soon forgot about it once giving the SS a hit and realising how good a V8 feels.

P.S. How much do you charge for a haircut?

So what you are saying is that you believe that 350Zs are cars for effeminate hairdresser fairies and you know this because YOU OWNED ONE?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::goodjob:

Well I suppose there are other ways of coming out of the closet and telling everyone that even though you now have a V8 (but pretend in your profile that it is a VR ecotech V6 so as not to upset your "special" friends) but I suspect LS1 is not really the place for you to find other fairies, I don't think there are many here. Maybe you could try all the other car forums and report back the one that you were most successful with hooking up with fairy hairdressers in so we all know where to avoid.

GODSMACK

12-09-2008, 03:18 PM

So what you are saying is that you believe that 350Zs are cars for effeminate hairdresser fairies and you know this because YOU OWNED ONE?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::goodjob:

Well I suppose there are other ways of coming out of the closet and telling everyone that even though you now have a V8 (but pretend in your profile that it is a VR ecotech V6 so as not to upset your "special" friends) but I suspect LS1 is not really the place for you to find other fairies, I don't think there are many here. Maybe you could try all the other car forums and report back the one that you were most successful with hooking up with fairy hairdressers in so we all know where to avoid.
Yes, that is correct.. Then i heard that 350z's are for hairdressers and donut punchers, hence i sold it, and no doubt why you bought one....

And again your right, 350z-tech is where i found you, my little fairy friend.

"yawn"......... Love your work grandpa...

flappist

12-09-2008, 03:31 PM

Yes, that is correct.. Then i heard that 350z's are for hairdressers and donut punchers, hence i sold it, and no doubt why you bought one....

And again your right, 350z-tech is where i found you, my little fairy friend.

"yawn"......... Love your work grandpa...

So you now say you cruise the internet looking to hookup with fairies?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You had a 350Z but sold it. Must not have been the fairy magnet you hoped for then. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Carby

12-09-2008, 06:10 PM

LOL:rofl:

You guys are at your wittest when you are at each others throat's.

Thats partly why this forum is such a good read!

payaya

13-09-2008, 05:08 AM

Shame you have to fork out another $10K in servicing costs at around the 80K mark. For that money, you can almost get a spare engine for the W427. And what about new tyres for the GTR - they're exclusive again. Extravagant expenses for those who can afford to own them. It's a good thing owners of the W427 don't need to even think about these ownership nuances.

So the W427 engine is not much more expensive than the 6.2?? How can you justify a 80k premium??

CarlFST60L

13-09-2008, 07:34 AM

So the W427 engine is not much more expensive than the 6.2?? How can you justify a 80k premium??

Hasnt that been answered about 10 times in the last few weeks :hide:

Martin_D

13-09-2008, 07:45 AM

So the W427 engine is not much more expensive than the 6.2?? How can you justify a 80k premium??

Go look at some of the threads on the W427. Its a really complete car and those that have them seem to like them, so W427 must be delivering in the perceived value for money stakes. Not everyones taste, but neither is a GTR...or a GT....or...or..or.or... :eek:

Excellent

13-09-2008, 06:48 PM

So the W427 engine is not much more expensive than the 6.2?? How can you justify a 80k premium??

The same way that GTHOs command a $900,000 premium today. They will become collector's items in years to come if HSV could guarantee their exclusivity.

payaya

13-09-2008, 06:56 PM

The same way that GTHOs command a $900,000 premium today. They will become collector's items in years to come if HSV could guarantee their exclusivity.

Yeah but thats a totally different kettle of fish comparing a car from the past.

The way I see it is the GTR with 4WD, Trick transmission, Twin Turbos etc etc really only costs is an 80k vehicle.

Excellent

13-09-2008, 07:05 PM

Yeah but thats a totally different kettle of fish comparing a car from the past.

The way I see it is the GTR with 4WD, Trick transmission, Twin Turbos etc etc really only costs is an 80k vehicle.

I'm not comparing a car from the past. I'm saying the more exclusive the performance car, the greater the chance of improving your 'investment'. You can see a VL Grp A SS can fetch upwards of $100,000 now even though the car is only 20 years old. That car isn't exactly 'fast' in today's terms nor does it have trick gadgetry.

payaya

13-09-2008, 07:21 PM

I'm not comparing a car from the past. I'm saying the more exclusive the performance car, the greater the chance of improving your 'investment'. You can see a VL Grp A SS can fetch upwards of $100,000 now even though the car is only 20 years old. That car isn't exactly 'fast' in today's terms nor does it have trick gadgetry.

Ah ok! So you would be a lucky bastard to have say a GTS-R, SV300 or a BF GT Cobra or not????

Excellent

13-09-2008, 07:28 PM

Ah ok! So you would be a lucky bastard to have say a GTS-R, SV300 or a BF GT Cobra or not????

Some of those cars are just stripe specials. No that's not what I'm saying. The GTS-R might be worth some money further down the track but I'm not prepared to make that call.

What I'm saying is the W427 is a pure performance machine which is the quickest Australian muscle car ever. It's got street credibility and if it's limited in build, it might be worth a mint in years to come. Plain and simple.

payaya

13-09-2008, 07:35 PM

Excellent

13-09-2008, 09:15 PM

The way I see it is never ever buy a vehicle as an investment. Buy cars because you enjoy it! The SV 300 if you remember was a bit of a beast itself in its days! Remember the magical 300kw figure & the 100k price tag & limited builds? :)

If you had enough money to buy a 150k vehicle as an investment then obviously money really isnt an issue.

Dont get my wrong the 427 is a beast of a vehicle and deserves respect!

The SV300? The VT2 GTS would be worth more today even though it's the same car. Anyway, don't know what your point is as nobody here is talking about irrelevant cars like the SV300 except you. At the very least this thread is about the W427.

FlatfootV8

14-09-2008, 09:48 AM

The SV300? The VT2 GTS would be worth more today even though it's the same car. Anyway, don't know what your point is as nobody here is talking about irrelevant cars like the SV300 except you. At the very least this thread is about the W427.

I have come to the conclusion what is the actual fuss is all about... I mean come on there is only 427 will be made so not every tom dick and nancy will have one nor take one for a spin.... I would expect Ford Forums to trash the hell out of the car but not expecting it in a Holden Forum... Go figure.
:1peek:

Oh this not a personal attack to "Excellent" just a rant really. :p

HSV700

14-09-2008, 10:40 AM

IMO all that matters is what you personaly drive vs what the guy you pull up at the lights against.

If your in a W427 IMO you want be seeing too many pairs of tail lights.

I know where is only going to be 427 of them, but I can't remember pulling up against too many Lambo or DB7 or simlar at the lights.

But you get too give your car a hit out against another HSV or FPV or SS or XR6 or 8 or simlar and if you can beat them, then your the King of the Castle IMO.

zapher007

14-09-2008, 11:53 AM

As someone said before. it wasn;t a direct comparison. i bet this cover will sell a heap of magazines! That's all they are after. That and wanting to create discussion in places like this.

And they can charge $150,000 becasue people will still buy it becasue they want the best. Cars are a male passion (and some females) as handbags etc are a female (and some male ha ha) passion. My gf has a $800 handbag. I can;t see the point as a $8 would still hold her stuff. But that's the way it goes! If there is a market....go for it!!

Now i've just got to invent something that I can sell for a crazy price and still have everyone wanting it...