VE Clutch safety feature being disengaged

[SSBarney]

This became apparent from a diiferent thread that had become messy, so thought id start another.

With no direction at any tuner who may be doing this, reading about tuners removing the clutch safety feature during tunes, and not fully informing clients, made my think,
... how long before a tuner is sued????:confused:
Its not difficult to consider a situation where the removal of this feature would result in the serious injury or even death of a child.
Yes we all know to depress the clutch when starting a car, but really who has not turned the key in an error to get a lurch of the car. Well the VE doesnt just lurch it keeps going and starts.

I was wondering at what point should tuners be having a checklist for customers where they request what features they want modified. Im sure in a tune situation some customers would have no idea of the fact that such features were being removed. And what are the legal implications of a 2nd hand buyer that has an incident due to this feature being removed??

Not an attack at anyone, just wondering where the implications of tuning and modifying safety features that could end up with liability etc

Barney

[macca33]

My personal opinion is that it should not be done for a road car as it is an inherent safety feature.

It is up to the tuner to decide for themselves whether they will offer such a modification; bearing in mind that they could at a relevant point be called before a Coroner to explain their actions, should the worst possible thing occur. Not to mention the law of torts, should something go wrong.

Cheers,

Macca

[macca_779]

I'm all for disabling the clutch cut out as I always start my car before getting in to it for a couple of reasons. 1, I don't smoke in my car and like to give my car a few seconds of warming up in the morning before taking off. And 2, have you ever jumped into a car with leather seats in the N.T that has been sitting in 40c heat all day. Windows down A/C on for 30 seconds helps alot and I don't want my arse anywhere near those seats till after that.

So yes disable the cut out, but only if you disable the self cranking feature too. This in the end is what will cause these E38 ECM cars to hit something.

[SSBarney]

It is up to the tuner to decide for themselves whether they will offer such a modification; bearing in mind that they could at a relevant point be called before a Coroner to explain their actions, should the worst possible thing occur. Not to mention the law of torts, should something go wrong.

Cheers,

Macca
I would say at a guess that it would be a hard battle for a tuner in the court that there wasnt a reasonable assumption that their actions would cause harm.
On the part of tuners leaving it up to customers on what they want changed, i guess at what point are tuners going to start protecting themselves, because with the amount of factory safety and anti-abuse features being played with, surely its only a matter of time before something yuk occurs.

[CSP]

Well the VE doesnt just lurch it keeps going and starts.

No it doesn't. The electronic ignition requires the clutch to work. I know because when starting in neutral with the clutch in and doing the "flick" of the key to start the car, I have released the clutch too soon and the start process stops.

This whole thing isn't really that big of a deal. If you're so stupid that you start your car in gear without engaging the clutch, you deserve whatever happens!

[Blown 540]

No it doesn't. The electronic ignition requires the clutch to work. I know because when starting in neutral with the clutch in and doing the "flick" of the key to start the car, I have released the clutch too soon and the start process stops.

This whole thing isn't really that big of a deal. If you're so stupid that you start your car in gear without engaging the clutch, you deserve whatever happens!

How are you CSP---------:)

[SSBarney]

No it doesn't. The electronic ignition requires the clutch to work. I know because when starting in neutral with the clutch in and doing the "flick" of the key to start the car, I have released the clutch too soon and the start process stops.

This whole thing isn't really that big of a deal. If you're so stupid that you start your car in gear without engaging the clutch, you deserve whatever happens!

So obviously your safety feature is still fully operative and hasnt been tuned out. Had it of been tuned out, in your above situtaion where YOU released the clutch too soon what might have happened?? did anyone in the way deserve what happened to them?

[CSP]

So obviously your safety feature is still fully operative and hasnt been tuned out. Had it of been tuned out, in your above situtaion where YOU released the clutch too soon what might have happened?? did anyone in the way deserve what happened to them?

You're talking about something different than I am. I'm talking about the electronic ignition and you're talking about the clutch safety feature.

In the way of what? Car was in neutral. Always is when I start my car. It's not rocket science.

[seldo]

My personal opinion is that it should not be done for a road car as it is an inherent safety feature.

It is up to the tuner to decide for themselves whether they will offer such a modification; bearing in mind that they could at a relevant point be called before a Coroner to explain their actions, should the worst possible thing occur. Not to mention the law of torts, should something go wrong.

Cheers,

MaccaI think Barney's raised a very valid point - it will not be very long before someone adds a tuner's name to a writ. If I was in that business I'd be very careful about disabling the clutch-in feature without also disabling the auto-start at the same time. Mandatory!

[macca_779]

You're talking about something different than I am. I'm talking about the electronic ignition and you're talking about the clutch safety feature.

In the way of what? Car was in neutral. Always is when I start my car. It's not rocket science.

No he is not dude.. Its the same thing. Your car stops cranking and stalls if you release the clutch to early.. That's the clutch cut out feature which commands the ECM to stop firing the ignition and powering the starter. In your case its doing it because the ECM is still in start mode or what ever its technical name may be.

My opinion of this is that the nicety of an auto crank feature initiated by just momentarily keying the start circuit is negated by having to keep your foot on the bloody clutch even if its in neutral. If the ECM knew the car was in Neutral it could negate the clutch cut out, (as its purpose is not necessary if in neutral) that would be perfect and everyone would be happy.

[CSP]

How are you CSP---------:)

Good mate... been away a while :D


My opinion of this is that the nicety of an auto crank feature initiated by just momentarily keying the start circuit is negated by having to keep your foot on the bloody clutch even if its in neutral. If the ECM knew the car was in Neutral it could negate the clutch cut out, (as its purpose is not necessary if in neutral) that would be perfect and everyone would be happy.

Agree 100% :goodjob:

[SSBarney]

I'm all for disabling the clutch cut out as I always start my car before getting in to it for a couple of reasons. 1, I don't smoke in my car and like to give my car a few seconds of warming up in the morning before taking off. And 2, have you ever jumped into a car with leather seats in the N.T that has been sitting in 40c heat all day. Windows down A/C on for 30 seconds helps alot and I don't want my arse anywhere near those seats till after that.

So yes disable the cut out, but only if you disable the self cranking feature too. This in the end is what will cause these E38 ECM cars to hit something.

well in the situations mentioned on the forum where the feature has been removd it would appear the self cranking feature has not been removed . so in that situation
"have you ever jumped into a car with leather seats in the N.T that has been sitting in 40c heat all day."
Have you ever been in the situation where your child has run out to the garage to say bye to her daddy? ... right before he was silly enough to forget the safety feature was removed ??

[Blown 540]

Good mate... been away a while :D



Agree 100% :goodjob:

Where you been. ?

[vl_bt1]

No it doesn't. The electronic ignition requires the clutch to work. I know because when starting in neutral with the clutch in and doing the "flick" of the key to start the car, I have released the clutch too soon and the start process stops.

This whole thing isn't really that big of a deal. If you're so stupid that you start your car in gear without engaging the clutch, you deserve whatever happens!

My SS-V is completely standard, clutch must be in for the car to crank, however i release the clutch once it begins to crank and it will keep cranking for however long it is set to with the clutch out while in neutral

Does disabling of this saftey feature also disable the auto crank? Perhaps someone with this saftey feature disabled can comment?

Just a guess but this saftey feature isnt a design regulation? therefore it isnt required for the vehicle to be operated on roads. If a workshop disabled it and it resulted in an accident, any other pre ve car without this feature would have would result in the same situation. Its an accident covered by bodily insurance?

Either way a workshop shouldnt disable it without the client asking for it to be done IMO

[SSBarney]

Just a guess but this saftey feature isnt a design regulation? therefore it isnt required for the vehicle to be operated on roads. If a workshop disabled it and it resulted in an accident, any other pre ve car without this feature would have would result in the same situation. Its an accident covered by bodily insurance?

Either way a workshop shouldnt disable it without the client asking for it to be done IMO

As far as i know its not a design regulation, but where does common law kick in on the tuner for removing it??
Removed it without my written consent and because of that an incident occurred???
Thats what im questioning

[macca_779]

well in the situations mentioned on the forum where the feature has been removd it would appear the self cranking feature has not been removed . so in that situation
"have you ever jumped into a car with leather seats in the N.T that has been sitting in 40c heat all day."
Have you ever been in the situation where your child has run out to the garage to say bye to her daddy? ... right before he was silly enough to forget the safety feature was removed ??

Yeah in the case on the forum the auto start was not disabled and that I 100% do not condone.

Nope I have a VT so even if I was stupid enough to forget I left the car in gear (which I never do) it would barely move as I 99% of the time have the handbrake on and even if I didn't I would release the key straight away and the car would move only a few centimetres at most. But yes I see your point and 100% agree. Hence I believe if your going to disable the clutch cut. Disable the auto crank too.

[Gozza]

Problem you're going to have is driver not putting his foot on the clutch or ensuring it's out of gear as a new act intervening. Alternatively, in NSW at least there's no liability for materialisation of an inherent risk which you'd think a lot of tuners would argue. I dunno what sort of legs it would have but it might work for them. Another issue might be that the child of an owner of a car who has it modified might be considered too remote a relationship to establish a duty of care. It'd be interesting if it was tested.

Surely it's been litigated in the States. Anyone heard of anything over there?

[macca_779]

My SS-V is completely standard, clutch must be in for the car to crank, however i release the clutch once it begins to crank and it will keep cranking for however long it is set to with the clutch out while in neutral

Does disabling of this saftey feature also disable the auto crank? Perhaps someone with this saftey feature disabled can comment?

Just a guess but this saftey feature isnt a design regulation? therefore it isnt required for the vehicle to be operated on roads. If a workshop disabled it and it resulted in an accident, any other pre ve car without this feature would have would result in the same situation. Its an accident covered by bodily insurance?

Either way a workshop shouldnt disable it without the client asking for it to be done IMO

Auto start is not disabled as a by product of disabling the clutch cut out, its a separate item in the tune that has to be turned off.. Hence the issue we are all discussing. Because of this its a different kettle of fish to pre E38 controlled cars (IE GenIV engines in VE's and a few others)

[vl_bt1]

As far as i know its not a design regulation, but where does common law kick in on the tuner for removing it??
Removed it without my written consent and because of that an incident occurred???
Thats what im questioning

Liability? Not sure mate, accident would be covered by insurance assuming any injurys sustained or damage caused were not major, but i guess if it resulted in a fatality in the investigation and having found a factory saftey feature removed that would have prevented it would be highly scrutinised by the law, even if it were the owners choice i would guess

[Gozza]

Liability for injury would require >15% total deficit (refer to your state's Civil Liability Act). In whatever case it's all going to be covered by insurance. That's what insurance is there for. Only time I can think of when your insurer won't pick up the tab is if you were pissed and cranked it over then ran over your best mate who was also pissed and should have known you were or it was your mate's son who did the cranking and you had no idea and your young bloke got injured - but that'd be affected by the Motor Accidents Compensation Act (or state equivalent) anyway.

[TYREFRIAR]

And the first arguement the boffins will come up with will be

"did he really forget to depress the clutch to start, or did he acccidently, or otherwise, cause the vehicle movement, while he was in control if it, and cause the trajic event, given he had the vehicle for "X " amount of time with this feature removed, and should of been aware of his surroundings, and vehicle, along with its operation, before proceeding."

If you have fired a particular firemarm previously, and are familiar with it, and the fact the safety didnt work, and its loaded, and it goes off and shoots someone, one day when you pick it up,

are you liabel?

does the person who put the gun there have any liability ?

does the gun maker have any liability for making a weapon that could be modified for the safety to not work ?

All grey areas that can be exploited, but at the end of the day, one person should have checked the obvious, and ensured everyones safety, within the surrounding area.

Prevention beats cure, or awarding blame, in any of these situations.

[bwhinnen]

And the first arguement the boffins will come up with will be

"did he really forget to depress the clutch to start, or did he acccidently, or otherwise, cause the vehicle movement, while he was in control if it, and cause the trajic event, given he had the vehicle for "X " amount of time with this feature removed, and should of been aware of his surroundings, and vehicle, along with its operation, before proceeding."

If you have fired a particular firemarm previously, and are familiar with it, and the fact the safety didnt work, and its loaded, and it goes off and shoots someone, one day when you pick it up,

are you liabel?

does the person who put the gun there have any liability ?

does the gun maker have any liability for making a weapon that could be modified for the safety to not work ?

All grey areas that can be exploited, but at the end of the day, one person should have checked the obvious, and ensured everyones safety, within the surrounding area.

Prevention beats cure, or awarding blame, in any of these situations.

You're analogy with the firearm is somewhat flawed, as one of the first things anyone that handles a firearm is taught is that it is always loaded and never to point it at something you do not want to shoot. Also if it is your firearm and you left it somewhere loaded or otherwise the laws are quite clear in the fact that you are responsible for it, unless there are letters from you to the person in question and back again (and they are suitably licensed) stating that they are responsible for the weapon, or it is at a registered dealer or gunsmith.

But anyway I do digress sorry :)