Extractors - Short vs Long

[scotty333]

Hey guys, its been a long time since I've posted on here, but need some different opinions here.

In short, I've got a VE SS (A6) and have no major mods done as yet.

All ive done is cut the rear mufflers off the stock exhaust and replaced with hotdogs to give it a meaty note. It does drone a fair bit, but its quite loud and deep which I like.

This was just a cheap alternative until I got a better system. This time is now.



Basically, I want to upgrade my exhaust without spening thousands of dollars, and ive read a millions threads on 2.5" vs 3" xforce systems.
Ive spoken to a few forums sponsors and an exhaust specialist locally to me and this is what I'm thinking of doing....

2.5" xforce with 4 into 1 short pacies

Now the trouble Im having is the exhaust guy told me there is really no point putting long extractors on unless I'm really gonna use them (ie.track etc) He finds for normal street driving the short extractors will still give me a big increase in power/torque and finds sometimes the long extractors arn't worth it (unless yo have no problem spending the money of course).

With everything, you get what you pay for. So obviously the long ones are higher in quality and the gains are better....but in ppls opinions, how great a difference do you think the long extractors are to the short ones?

I mean I'm looking at a difference of $800 here. Is it worth it?

Also, Im having doubts about the xforce. Like even though the note i have currently might not be the sharpest....its def loud. Im worried the xforce wont be as deep as what i have now, so is it worth upgrading at all?
Like would it be an option to fit the extractors to the setup I have at the moment?
I spose in hindsight I can always get the xforce and take the rear resi's out, that should deeper her up. I'm not sure. Ive listened to some sound files, but it always sounds diff in person. I just want her to have a nice long sharp roar when punching.

Once this is done, Im also going to get a Tune done so I dont want to make a mistake on extractors, systems because otherwise the tune wont be as effective as it could be.




Well any feedback or opinions would help a lot. Thanks guys.

[boyley]

Well mate you certainly made up for your hiatus:)

You can make any system loud as you have proven. Installing extractors should be your number one move and also some decent high flow cats.

I recommend you install at least 1 3/4" 4 into 1 extractors and 3" high flow metal substrate cats (see Sureflo's thread about cats).

What you bolt on to this setup is what will make it loud or not, and thats where we differ as I like quiet systems, so I'll but out now. Good luck.

[smokey777]

Hey guys, its been a long time since I've posted on here, but need some different opinions here.

In short, I've got a VE SS (A6) and have no major mods done as yet.

All ive done is cut the rear mufflers off the stock exhaust and replaced with hotdogs to give it a meaty note. It does drone a fair bit, but its quite loud and deep which I like.

This was just a cheap alternative until I got a better system. This time is now.



Basically, I want to upgrade my exhaust without spening thousands of dollars, and ive read a millions threads on 2.5" vs 3" xforce systems.
Ive spoken to a few forums sponsors and an exhaust specialist locally to me and this is what I'm thinking of doing....

2.5" xforce with 4 into 1 short pacies

Now the trouble Im having is the exhaust guy told me there is really no point putting long extractors on unless I'm really gonna use them (ie.track etc) He finds for normal street driving the short extractors will still give me a big increase in power/torque and finds sometimes the long extractors arn't worth it (unless yo have no problem spending the money of course).

With everything, you get what you pay for. So obviously the long ones are higher in quality and the gains are better....but in ppls opinions, how great a difference do you think the long extractors are to the short ones?

I mean I'm looking at a difference of $800 here. Is it worth it?

Also, Im having doubts about the xforce. Like even though the note i have currently might not be the sharpest....its def loud. Im worried the xforce wont be as deep as what i have now, so is it worth upgrading at all?
Like would it be an option to fit the extractors to the setup I have at the moment?
I spose in hindsight I can always get the xforce and take the rear resi's out, that should deeper her up. I'm not sure. Ive listened to some sound files, but it always sounds diff in person. I just want her to have a nice long sharp roar when punching.

Once this is done, Im also going to get a Tune done so I dont want to make a mistake on extractors, systems because otherwise the tune wont be as effective as it could be.




Well any feedback or opinions would help a lot. Thanks guys.

i have Hitec Tri-ys, Highflow cats, 2.5" x-force catback with mufflers & resonator & i can tell ya its loud & mean sounding but this is on VY LS1 though :confused:

[Wonky]

I don't see how there can be a price differential of $800 between long and short extractors. :shock: I mean, Pacey long 4-1s like I have are about $800 all up (not coated).

[scotty333]

Sorry im not the most knowledgable person on here....

So are 1 3/4 4 into 1 extractors long or short??? I would assume there ay long being 3/4?

But I want to know if anyone recommends the short ones? Cheaper, easier to install due to the oxygen line not having to be mucked around considering it has to be before and after cat converter...so lot less stuffing around.

Gain difference between the 2? The short ones im thinking of doing are pacemaker...so they are surely not to bad?

[boyley]

Sorry im not the most knowledgable person on here....

So are 1 3/4 4 into 1 extractors long or short??? I would assume there ay long being 3/4?

But I want to know if anyone recommends the short ones? Cheaper, easier to install due to the oxygen line not having to be mucked around considering it has to be before and after cat converter...so lot less stuffing around.

Gain difference between the 2? The short ones im thinking of doing are pacemaker...so they are surely not to bad?

I'm not sure about other brands but I have the same ones as Wonky. Pacemaker only make one 4 into 1 for the VE I believe.

[scotty333]

Wonky...sorry i meant that its about $800 difference between the 2 full systems

Like I got quoted around $1400 for 2.5" xforce system AND 4 into 1 SHORT extractors with cats compared to

$2200 2.5" xforce with 4 into 1 LONG extractors

boyley thats what I thought too, but we (the exhaust dude and me) rang them today and they said they have just released some new ones (short)...so yeh figured they were the go perhaps?

[boyley]

Wonky...sorry i meant that its about $800 difference between the 2 full systems

Like I got quoted around $1400 for 2.5" xforce system AND 4 into 1 SHORT extractors with cats compared to

$2200 2.5" xforce with 4 into 1 LONG extractors

boyley thats what I thought too, but we (the exhaust dude and me) rang them today and they said they have just released some new ones (short)...so yeh figured they were the go perhaps?

This is what the pacemakers look like

http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/82000081/Images/4/PH5381.jpg

[Wonky]

Wonky...sorry i meant that its about $800 difference between the 2 full systems

Like I got quoted around $1400 for 2.5" xforce system AND 4 into 1 SHORT extractors with cats compared to

$2200 2.5" xforce with 4 into 1 LONG extractors

boyley thats what I thought too, but we (the exhaust dude and me) rang them today and they said they have just released some new ones (short)...so yeh figured they were the go perhaps?

$1400 sounds very cheap for a full system inc cats and extractors, unless they just reuse the standard cats.

[scotty333]

$1400 sounds very cheap for a full system inc cats and extractors, unless they just reuse the standard cats.

Yeh he may just use the standard cats, you may be right.


But either way.....what does he mean by "short" extractors?

Is that the 1 3/4 4 into 1 pacemakers or?

So many numbers Im trying to learn :P lol

[VXSS9180]

I had an "exhaust specialist" fit Pacemaker headers on my VX SS with a Redback cat back system at his recommendation. Not the best choice I'm sure! The drone drove me crazy and I eventually replaced the lot with a full Di Filippo system and I'm stoked with the sound. Buy the best you can afford and before you buy, make sure you know how the complete system will sound up front. Good luck with it all.

Cheers,
Barry

[Wonky]

The 1 3/4 is the pipe diameter and both long and short extractors can come in that (and probably 1 5/8 and 1 7/8 plus ???). Short extractors are normally designed to finish in the same place as the standard factory cast iron headers so that nothing has to change about the position of the cats. That's why I suspect the $1,400 price is probably using the standard cats and if so won't give the additional benefits of high flow cats.

Most tuners seem to favour long extractors to really get the gases flowing. I'm sure I've heard Sonny expound the virtues of a good set of long 4-1s.

[scotty333]

I had an "exhaust specialist" fit Pacemaker headers on my VX SS with a Redback cat back system at his recommendation. Not the best choice I'm sure! The drone drove me crazy and I eventually replaced the lot with a full Di Filippo system and I'm stoked with the sound. Buy the best you can afford and before you buy, make sure you know how the complete system will sound up front. Good luck with it all.

Cheers,
Barry

Yeh I here you. I heard the Di Fillippo systems sounds great but they tend to leak a fair bit.

[boyley]

The 1 3/4 is the pipe diameter and both long and short extractors can come in that (and probably 1 5/8 and 1 7/8 plus ???). Short extractors are normally designed to finish in the same place as the standard factory cast iron headers so that nothing has to change about the position of the cats. That's why I suspect the $1,400 price is probably using the standard cats and if so won't give the additional benefits of high flow cats.

Most tuners seem to favour long extractors to really get the gases flowing. I'm sure I've heard Sonny expound the virtues of a good set of long 4-1s.

Yes, and I think 4 into 1's are inherently long as all pipes are tuned length.

[Wonky]

I had an "exhaust specialist" fit Pacemaker headers on my VX SS with a Redback cat back system at his recommendation. Not the best choice I'm sure! The drone drove me crazy and I eventually replaced the lot with a full Di Filippo system and I'm stoked with the sound. Buy the best you can afford and before you buy, make sure you know how the complete system will sound up front. Good luck with it all.

Cheers,
Barry

The drone will almost certainly have been due to the catback part of the system. If anything extractors usually contribute to reducing drone. If you do a search on here I'm sure you will find many criticisms of Redback systems for just that reason (and also many people very happy with them).

[scotty333]

The 1 3/4 is the pipe diameter and both long and short extractors can come in that (and probably 1 5/8 and 1 7/8 plus ???). Short extractors are normally designed to finish in the same place as the standard factory cast iron headers so that nothing has to change about the position of the cats. That's why I suspect the $1,400 price is probably using the standard cats and if so won't give the additional benefits of high flow cats.

Most tuners seem to favour long extractors to really get the gases flowing. I'm sure I've heard Sonny expound the virtues of a good set of long 4-1s.

Your spot on there mate. He sais this way the cats can stay where they are and there is less fiddling around.

Yeh Steve from Oztrack tuning also indicated to go long instead of short, but in earnest...im not gonna take it down the track. Im not getting a cam etc I just want that little bit extra, and the tune will surely give me a bit more anyways.

Thats why i think he said that for where i drive etc the short ones will do fine. I may get high flow cats put on, not sure of the extra price but yeh.

[Wonky]

I may get high flow cats put on, not sure of the extra price but yeh.

That's why you need to investigate further what the $1,400 price includes as a decent set of high flow cats will chew up most/all of your $800 difference anyway! On the VE the standard O2 sensor wiring will reach even with the long 4-1s, so no extra cost there.

[scotty333]

He said the cats on the Ve's are fairly flowy anyways.....like compared to the recent models they are quiet good for air flow. He dosnt seem to think I need high flow cats, but yeh.......

Which is why im asking you fellas...im no expert :P

So opinion on short extractors then???

[SSV8TE]

Gday mate,
Not meaning to sound smart here but i had the xforce stepped headers and 3"high flow cats fitted to my 2.5 " cat back xforce system and my ute sounds like a touring car at WOT now. Given i have had other mods now that help this note it still sounded gutsy before the current mods.
On the dyno i also picked up 18 rwkw from just the stepped headers alone.
My tuner and his team at Chev's fitted these welded tuning pegs on the headers and spun her on the dyno in a few hours mate.
They are i suppose what you are calling the long extractors but IMO they are the only way to go and they will improve performance ten fold down track when other mods are added. You may change your mind on mods in future and then have to get a better system so save your money and do it now IMO.
I have a sound file of WOT on the chev performance sponsor site if you havnt already heard it.
So in all best of luck on your choice as it is your choice in end,
Cheers,

Andy.

[Wonky]

He said the cats on the Ve's are fairly flowy anyways.....like compared to the recent models they are quiet good for air flow. He dosnt seem to think I need high flow cats, but yeh.......

Which is why im asking you fellas...im no expert :P

So opinion on short extractors then???

Keep your eye on Australian LS1 and Holden Forums (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=106832) and you may get answers to your question on how well the standard cats flow. Unfortunately I don't know that you'll get many genuine opinions on short extractors as I don't know that many people have tried them on VE yet and comparisons on pre-VE are possibly not all that valid.

I know Katlad put HM shorty extractors and high flow cats on his SSV and was apparently quite happy with them.

[scotty333]

Cheers guys. I appreciate the comments anyways.

Perhaps a Tuner can give me more info on the differences on gains between the long and short extractors.

[BLACKVE]

I've had both short and long pacies on SS.

Put short headers and 2 1/2" system on when car was a month old thought that would be the end of mods, resulted in 270rwkw's with std cats and tune.

After the bug bit and cam etc was fitted i went to 4>1 long, high flow cats and 3" x force system.

If your not really going to do more mods short headers and system will do fine, standard cats have 2 1/2" pipes but a 6" body with plenty of room for gases to get through substrate.

But really buy the 4>1 headers they only cost about $100 more plus cats(got mine for $620 in adelaide). You really don't know when that mod bug will bit:bow:

Cam idle i here you say lol enjoy!!!!!

[scotty333]

I've had both short and long pacies on SS.

Put short headers and 2 1/2" system on when car was a month old thought that would be the end of mods, resulted in 270rwkw's with std cats and tune.

After the bug bit and cam etc was fitted i went to 4>1 long, high flow cats and 3" x force system.

If your not really going to do more mods short headers and system will do fine, standard cats have 2 1/2" pipes but a 6" body with plenty of room for gases to get through substrate.

But really buy the 4>1 headers they only cost about $100 more plus cats(got mine for $620 in adelaide). You really don't know when that mod bug will bit:bow:

Cam idle i here you say lol enjoy!!!!!

Ok I hear what your saying. Thanks heaps for the posts guys.

So if I were to go back to my exahaust guy and tell him I want 4 into 1 long pacies, 2.5" xforce with high flow cats (or standard cats opened up) whats a reasonable price on that?

Like what would I pay for a setup like that roughly??

[BLACKVE]

I fitted exhaust myself but following is guide

4>1 headers $620

Cats $270 delivered from US (ebay cat thread)

3" X Force mild steel system $890 from ebay

I guess add mark up and installation cost of several $100

NOTE Standard cats wont fit behind Long headers (too big)

Cheers Paul

[scotty333]

ok so around the $1800 mark. Seems fair

I spose in comparison I would be paying $1400 for the short headers and system, so I may as well spend the extra $400 and get the long ones. Thanks boys,