VE HSV R8 Vs. FG FPV F6 Top Gear Australia Comparison

[Alex(AUS)]

Hi Guys,

I know this may stir some crap up with the Ford fans that seem to always frequent this site looking to prove their F6 is the be all and end all of all performance motoring (particularly in a straight line). However, as the Top Gear review lacked any real detail apart from a drag race, drifting and a braking test ... I thought I would give everyone some insight into the test from some video analysis of their footage.

First of all many Ford fans have blamed the start / lack of stall used etc for the off-the-line performance of the F6 ... I can tell you that from video analysis the R8 did in fact get a 0.24 second jump. This was equal to no more than 1.1 car lengths as shown in this picture when the distance between the cars off-the-line settles.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2921784982_3f9cd545e8_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/2921785404_0c46c2cc75_o.png

The R8 also experienced quite a bit of wheelspin (quite strange considering that they mentioned both cars had traction control enabled). I know that with my car traction control on or off makes very little difference to straight line performance, however, it is obviously much slower with wheelspin that covers the car in smoke.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2921819292_f9eb683d2d_o.png

The F6 did not show any wheelspin throughout. I have noted that many mention the F6 is slower with the traction control off as a result of traction issues. So, if anything, this disadvantages the R8. Worth 0.2 seconds??? The F6 clearly makes up half of its lost time in as a result of the R8s wheelspin (following picture).

After this the R8 clearly walks away from the F6 by 2-3 meters. Going by the distance between them at the start of the pit wall and the end.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2920941749_fb1cd214f8_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2920941343_f7f2636887_o.png

Near the finish of the 400m the R8 starts to loose its gap at a rate of 1 meter for every 0.96 seconds as a result of it having to shift just prior to the line whereas the F6 carrying on in 3rd (following 2 pictures).

The footage looks like it is much faster ... unfortunately data says it was carrying only 2.25mph more in the last second of acceleration ...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3015/2920938169_647b4bb773_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2920939013_0562c9f61b_o.png

Finally, the R8 wins the race by a very small margin (in contrast to what the commentators thought happened).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png

So, in summary, with all things being equal I think it is VERY close. The drag race certainly does not promote one or the other; they are both very fast and virtually identical in true straight line performance ...

Make of it what you will ...

Alex

[Evman]

The R8 got the jump off the line though, which would have given the F6 a better winning margin if they were even... Unfortunately! :)

Just re-read and noticed you already mentioned that. Sorry mate :)

[nikola]

The F6 was clearly much faster once on the move. It visibly chased down the R8, despite the slow start.

[Ghosn]

For those that missed it.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eHZhsF8hwI)

[Alex(AUS)]

The R8 got the jump off the line though, which would have given the F6 a better winning margin if they were even... Unfortunately! :)

Just re-read and noticed you already mentioned that. Sorry mate :)

R8 got alot of wheelspin ... worth the 0.2 jump???


The F6 was clearly much faster once on the move. It visibly chased down the R8, despite the slow start.

I wouldnt say much faster ... it had approx 2mph more right in the last second only which can be attributed to the different shift points between the ZF A6 and GM A6 / diff ratios ... The R8 was actually slightly faster (probably also 2mph) in the middle section ...

Alex

[jai]

"I Just Want One"













Sorry, Im referring to a real review by some real reviewers :) Ship them to Clarkson for review please! (or shall we wait until Feb when he's down here?)

JK

[nikola]

I wouldnt say much faster ... it had approx 2mph more right in the last second only which can be attributed to the different shift points between the ZF A6 and GM A6 / diff ratios ... The R8 was actually slightly faster (probably also 2mph) in the middle section ...

Alex

The different angles of the video aren't in sync (poor editing). At one point, the F6 actually overtakes the R8, but then they show a side angle as though the cars are half way down the track and the R8 is still in front.

So, the footage we saw on the dhow doesn't match up.

[Alex(AUS)]

The different angles of the video aren't in sync (poor editing). At one point, the F6 actually overtakes the R8, but then they show a side angle as though the cars are half way down the track and the R8 is still in front.

So, the footage we saw on the dhow doesn't match up.


The video is recorded by many cameras at the same time. Different camera footage is used from each camera out of sequence. The entire race actually lasts 22 seconds :rofl: because many things are repeated from different angles in random places. I factored that in and the data I have posted is accurate ...

Alex

[craigus]

great post mate.for what it's worth i agree that the lack of stalling the F6 up and the wheelspin in the HSV probably cancel each other out.

[SHANESVZSS]

2 great performance cars!! Well done HSV and FPV , altho when the cars are so evenly matched IMO i think 9/10 times it comes down to the driver..

[255-LS1]

another point to also not is that the VE used in the test with plates "VE R8" has done that many tests its not funny, so theres a fair chance that it is a little worn, did any one notice that the diff in the VE was only one wheeling the majority of the time, must shagged

[Pickles]

Alex(Aus)-Good post, thank you-Great analysis & photos!!--It's a shame that Top (Bottom!) Gear couldn't do a proper analysis--I thought theirs was crap.
Cheers, Pickles.

[seedyrom]

1. Hows that crappy "tunnel vision" effect that they stole from UKTG?

2. How come they stopped the vision short of the line? (I declare shenanigans)

3. Chillax mate. It was purely about ratings, not about results. I declare shenanigans on the whole "race" (see 2).

4. The F6 would wallop the R8 anyway wouldn't it? It certainly would if they both had a tune only done. You can't win 'em all.

5. its been well over a year since i've been to Wakefield. Where abouts is this shot on the main straight?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2920941343_f7f2636887_o.png

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/wakefieldpark.jpg

Have they built more sheds since the google map photo was taken? or is the green topped sheds to the left of the guy in white, actually the end of that line of garages down the main straight.
Either way, its awefully close to the finish line. Did the R8 apply the brakes to allow the F6 to gain so much ground so quickly?

6. Chillax :D

7. Main straight, 900 metres.

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/wakefieldpark2.jpg

Not exactly a quarter mile battle. I hope when you are having a traffic light battle with someone, you do infact race over the TopGear Australia proven 600+ metres. Its the only way to settle a pub bet :rofl:

[Ghosn]

I don't think we need to waste time deciphering a poorly executed review from the TGAU girls. Let it die a faster death instead of dragging it on.

[VYSHSV8]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y243/VYSHSV8/VYSHSV8/wakefieldpark2.jpg

[Carby]

Nice Analysis Alex - I think we learnt more by your post than the TG show.:)

Also interesting to see that the R8 stopped quicker than the F6 by about 3/4 of a car length. Both awesome performance cars though.

[Dagabond]

It's an edited piece for television there aint a thing you can tell from it...:confused:

Sticks head back in sand...

[SHANESVZSS]

dont want to hijkak thread or anything but i just brought the nre motor mag , it got the performance car 08 shoot out , anyway they clocked a 13.43 for the ve gts and 13.49 for the f6..just though id mention it..

[Alex(AUS)]

2. How come they stopped the vision short of the line? (I declare shenanigans)



I dont understand most of your post. The vision did not stop short of the line ... there is vision as they crossed the line (the R8 is still in front).

I think this picture will explain your queries;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2923476112_3cfe42e0a6_o.jpg

Alex

[VZMaloo183]

Hi, just thought id post this link up for anyone who hasent seen this before. Quarter mile run XR6 LS3. Enjoy

Head-to-head: HSV v FPV

Just incase the first link dosent work
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Video/VideoIndex.aspx?pg=2&vf=2

[seedyrom]

dont want to hijkak thread or anything but i just brought the nre motor mag , it got the performance car 08 shoot out , anyway they clocked a 13.43 for the ve gts and 13.49 for the f6..just though id mention it..

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/f6pwned.jpg


I dont understand most of your post. The vision did not stop short of the line ... there is vision as they crossed the line (the R8 is still in front).
Sorry, I would have assumed they would show the end in slow motion, rather than a blur. I didn't feel like breaking the vision down frame by frame .... but as you posted this

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png

I wondered why the finish wasn't pictured. I assumed it wasn't shown.

Photo finishes in horse races end when the nose crosses the line, not 30cms, or even 1 cm before.


I think this picture will explain your queries;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2923476112_3cfe42e0a6_o.jpg

Alex


Where'd the other 500 metres of track go? (or does the kink form part of the 900 metres of "straight"?)

http://www.caloris.com.au/Pictures/track%20WakefieldPark.gif

[Holden Man]

------------------------

[HazzaHSV]

Yep the kink is included in the 900 meters of main 'straight'.



Where'd the other 500 metres of track go? (or does the kink form part of the 900 metres of "straight"?)

[seedyrom]

ha

That's funny.

Yet it is officially called "Turn 1" aswell ?

[boyley]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/boylero/untitled-1.jpg

[Tecca]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/boylero/untitled-1.jpg

hahahhaahaha:rofl: wtf!:rofl::rofl:


:goodjob:

[Ghosn]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/boylero/untitled-1.jpg

ROFLCOPTER :rofl:

[Curtis-R]

another point to also not is that the VE used in the test with plates "VE R8" has done that many tests its not funny, so theres a fair chance that it is a little worn, did any one notice that the diff in the VE was only one wheeling the majority of the time, must shagged

The HSV 3.7 Diff aint a great piece of gear unfortunately!

[Excellent]

Who would care? I mean, seriously, is it really worth talking about?

How many owners buy cars based on drag strip potential?

[Carby]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/boylero/untitled-1.jpg

What a killa!!:rofl:

[VIXEN-T]

lol this test sounded bias from the start when theyr describing the engines and when they both jump in the F6 u can just tell which car they wanted to be better. How can u test a cars braking abilities like that? 2 people in 2 cars with walkie talkies how can u say 1 didnt brake b4 the other? Only way anyone is really gona know how quick these cars are is when REAL ppl who havent been paid by EITHER manufacturer take their own R8s and F6s to the track and start posting some REAL times :)

[Freaky]

How can that segment be called a review ? What they did was an embarrasment.

I wouldnt waste my time trying to analyse those results, 2 idiots with walkie talkies is not accurate.

Both cars are very close performance wise in real life. People will choose what they desire.

That was the only segment I have watched, it was atrocious. I wont be wasting my time watching anymore of this show. I hope it dies a quick death.

[Alex(AUS)]

I wouldnt waste my time trying to analyse those results, 2 idiots with walkie talkies is not accurate.


They are both auto and I factored in the jump/wheelspin/gears etc across the entire track. It is interesting insight you wouldn't otherwise get with just a number/mph without factoring in each car's characteristics. I am sure they were able to hold the accelerator down with the auto ... there aren't too many other variables to factor in apart from the ones mentioned ... We can conclude that each car would have had some + or - performance error and that the cars were close enough to say there is no real straight line advantage from either ...

Alex

[seedyrom]

Do stock auto's seriously wheelspin and smoke up that much on a racetrack with traction control on?

[Alex(AUS)]

Do stock auto's seriously wheelspin and smoke up that much on a racetrack with traction control on?

No. Maybe with traction off / poor tyres / poor diff ... it certainly would have been much faster to leave the traction on ...

Alex

[Dagabond]

...and I factored in...

Did you factor in that all the images shown aren't from the same run and in sequence...


Go to about the 2.17 mark in the vid above where the FPV is coming up in the side window cut away to outside the vehicle then back in again....

The FPV is in a different position to what it should be...

As I said earlier you cant take any 'facts' from a segment made for television...be a bit like believing everything you read on the internut is the truth...:confused:

[Alex(AUS)]

Did you factor in that all the images shown aren't from the same run and in sequence...


Go to about the 2.17 mark in the vid above where the FPV is coming up in the side window cut away to outside the vehicle then back in again....

The FPV is in a different position to what it should be...

As I said earlier you cant take any 'facts' from a segment made for television...be a bit like believing everything you read on the internut is the truth...:confused:

The video seems to be of a single race.

If you read my post before you would know that I said that the same footage is played from multiple cameras out of sequence and repeated. Ie the cars would go past a certain point in the track and then they do it again from another camera. The race lasts 22 seconds (just think about that). I have watched it carefully and it is the same race (or multiple races with the exact same outcome).

Alex

[BigAl83]

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/boylero/untitled-1.jpg
LMAOROFL!!!111!!!!!!
Morning glory?
:lmao:

[vlcalais8]

Plenty of mag tests/vids have shown the F6 will beat the R8 in a line, NZ Auto Car had one clocked at the 4.9sec 0-100Km/h. Latest Motor mag states they tested the best GTS so far which clocked a 13.4, F6 clocked a 13.5 with plenty of wheel spin (who knows why the morons at FPV keep that rubber). R8/GTS is plenty fast as is but F6 is faster. R8 and GTS are the better handlers hands down with more balance but still not enough to take down the F6 on the track although they are close. XR6T/G6ET's are matching the R8's and GTS's for straight line, if the F6 with 40KW and more torque was any slower then it would be the biggest POS to roll off the line. Stock for stock there has been a few F6's dynoed with results around the 280rwKW mark. And no I'm not part of any F6 "brigade" but its good to know about the great Aussie cars we have around these days. Wondering why the in detail investigation and calculations on something that has been proven?

[Alex(AUS)]

Plenty of mag tests/vids have shown the F6 will beat the R8 in a line, NZ Auto Car had one clocked at the 4.9sec 0-100Km/h. Latest Motor mag states they tested the best GTS so far which clocked a 13.4, F6 clocked a 13.5 with plenty of wheel spin (who knows why the morons at FPV keep that rubber). R8/GTS is plenty fast as is but F6 is faster. R8 and GTS are the better handlers hands down with more balance but still not enough to take down the F6 on the track although they are close. XR6T/G6ET's are matching the R8's and GTS's for straight line, if the F6 with 40KW and more torque was any slower then it would be the biggest POS to roll off the line. Stock for stock there has been a few F6's dynoed with results around the 280rwKW mark. And no I'm not part of any F6 "brigade" but its good to know about the great Aussie cars we have around these days. Wondering why the in detail investigation and calculations on something that has been proven?

So, you are quoting magasine times (this months Motor) that show a GTS being faster than the F6 as fact that the F6 is faster? You compare this months GTS time in Motor (which was faster than an F6) to show that compared to a NZ mags time that the GTS is slower than the F6. LOL ROFL!!! That is sooo funny! Great logic; I love it! This must be what you call "proof" then. As per my post, we like to stick to scientific data as compared to conjecture here at LS1.

I have not read any NZ mag comparisons but from what I can remember the HSV Senator currently holds the fastest 0-100 and 0-400m times ever recorded by an Australian production car in an Australian magasine bar the W427 ...

The GTS and R8 are also consistently faster around the track by a fair margin ...

Alex

[clubbie]

Why hasn't Ford/FPV given the press fleet any manual cars?

You know the one's with the anti lag system.

Is there a problem with the manual cars again? Are they slower/faster?

Every performance time... qtr mile etc I have seen posted on here from magazine's and the like has been an automatic. Why?

Edit: fu.ck you are funny vlcalais8....And no I'm not part of any F6 "brigade" ....with your participation in threads on this forum bashing Holden/HSV

[Alex(AUS)]

Why hasn't Ford/FPV given the press fleet any manual cars?

You know the one's with the anti lag system.

Is there a problem with the manual cars again? Are they slower/faster?

Every performance time... qtr mile etc I have seen posted on here from magazine's and the like has been an automatic. Why?

Edit: fu.ck you are funny vlcalais8....And no I'm not part of any F6 "brigade" ....with your participation in threads on this forum bashing Holden/HSV

The current "F6 was slower but faster" Motor times (as per vlcalais logic) were done with a manual GTS and manual F6. Apparently too much wheelspin with the "launch control" which makes the launch slow ... great system that.

Alex

[quantanemo]

Hey here is a thought - perhaps the whole thing was choerograhped to make it interesting for tv... and so that they didnt come up with a conclusion as to piss off half off Australia...perhaps...just maybe, the whole thing is bs.

FFS its an edited TV program...one can analyse it all one wants, and do all crazy calculations based on how it was shown, grab numbers from magazines who are in the business of peddling bs, launch tirades against alleged bias and unfair comparisons....really, who cares?

The R8 was launched well, then spun its wheels, then got up and about again. The F6 was launched like a pig, got up and about and chased down the R8. Simple, nothing more or nothing less can be gained from that segment except they are both barnstormers that Australia should be very proud of.

[seedyrom]

I don't know why we can't appreciate the F6 for what it is!

Its a kickarse car. They do low 12's with a tune and MT's.

Why is is so hard to believe it is not capable of beating a GTS?

Don't go bashing vlcalais just cause he has a different opinion to you. He quotes "proof", with EXACTLY the same credibility as your "proof", yet he is wrong?
FFS

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=39085

Did you see that?


Sorry ... but I am a Holden man, but not one-eyed enough not to appreciate that a Holden can be beaten by a Ford.

[Penko]

What does the F6 have to do for people to see that it can beat a GTS.

Take wheels July for instance, lap time around winton
GTS = 1.08.8
F6 = 1.07.9

I am a holden supporter and always have been but now i own a F6, its starting to get a bit old when people on here constntly have to try and prove that the Holden is quicker in some way.

Motor Septemeber, Wakefield Park lap time + Top speed on staight
R8 = 1.10.3 - 181.53
F6 = 1.10.1 - 189.56

So does this make me an F6 lover bashing on Holden products. No its a holden supporter driving the faster car as is today. Next year it will probably be holden that is faster, but now it is Ford.

A holden car does not mean it is faster just becuase it wears a lion.

Cheers, Flame suit on

[GODSMACK]

3 Cheers for yet another Ford Vs Holden bashing thread.. Hip Hip, Hooray!! Hip Hip, Hooray!! Hip Hip, Hooray!!

[BadMac]

I'm not taking any sides, but here is the page from NZ Autocar which has the F6 giving its all for its very best ever time. Note: NO HSV product was tested at the same time so no comparisons can be made. It was a cold August day with ideal conditions for a Turbo car to make good power. And also note they managed to launch it without wheelspin which is pretty easy for better drivers who know how to launch a car.

Oh and by the way, I can get my R8 to spin up one tyre with traction control on just under acceleration and I have good rubber (3000km Falken FK452 285/35R19). Its just a matter of fooling the traction control occasionally and I suspect my LSD is pucked.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/BadMac/F66.jpg

[Carby]

What does the F6 have to do for people to see that it can beat a GTS.

Take wheels July for instance, lap time around winton
GTS = 1.08.8
F6 = 1.07.9

I am a holden supporter and always have been but now i own a F6, its starting to get a bit old when people on here constntly have to try and prove that the Holden is quicker in some way.

Motor Septemeber, Wakefield Park lap time + Top speed on staight
R8 = 1.10.3 - 181.53
F6 = 1.10.1 - 189.56

So does this make me an F6 lover bashing on Holden products. No its a holden supporter driving the faster car as is today. Next year it will probably be holden that is faster, but now it is Ford.

A holden car does not mean it is faster just becuase it wears a lion.

Cheers, Flame suit on

Thing is, the tests between the 2 vehicles have seen different results - eg "Wheels" again in it's handling olympics the GTS came 5th and the F6 10th - the GTS was actually quicker around the circuit!

One thing is certain the F6 has better acceleration, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is always going to be quicker on the track.

[jai]

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=39085

Did you see that?


Yes, and again, chopped up footage. Take a look at the launch sequence at 1:55 of the film, just as you see the HSV launch there is someone behind the car with a tripod. Then at 1:57/1:158 the person is not there. And even at 2:08 the person is no where to be seen.

Im fkn sick of these glorified drag race sequences... why cant someone just show it for what it is. Clearly that launch is not the same launch that accompanies the rest of the run.

JK

[VIXEN-T]

think about this....

FG XR6 turbo auto (270kw) did 0-100 in 5.1 0-400m in 13.1

FG F6 (310kw) OBVIOUSLY is gona be FASTER!! just because some people on a stupid show and in stupid magazines who are being paid to say certain things (u think they make up the script themselves?) say that the F6 can only manage 13.5 shows they either CAN'T drive for sh*t or they dont want to do better than that time coz it might upset some people. It's logic and if u guys want to believe that the R8 is quicker than the F6 then good on yas! but when u go and spend the $70k for the R8 and get blown away on the street by a $46k FG XR6 turbo maybe u will wake up. :)

either way both cars R8 and F6 are bloody quick cars! Well done to HSV and FPV for making awesome packages for everyone to enjoy! :goodjob:

[FlatfootV8]

3 Cheers for yet another Ford Vs Holden bashing thread.. Hip Hip, Hooray!! Hip Hip, Hooray!! Hip Hip, Hooray!!

Yup it happens more than my wife putting her leg over me. :confused:

[Carby]

think about this....

FG XR6 turbo auto (270kw) did 0-100 in 5.1 0-400m in 13.1

FG F6 (310kw) OBVIOUSLY is gona be FASTER!! just because some people on a stupid show and in stupid magazines who are being paid to say certain things (u think they make up the script themselves?) say that the F6 can only manage 13.5 shows they either CAN'T drive for sh*t or they dont want to do better than that time coz it might upset some people. It's logic and if u guys want to believe that the R8 is quicker than the F6 then good on yas! but when u go and spend the $70k for the R8 and get blown away on the street by a $46k FG XR6 turbo maybe u will wake up. :)

either way both cars R8 and F6 are bloody quick cars! Well done to HSV and FPV for making awesome packages for everyone to enjoy! :goodjob:

Funny that no one has got anywhere near those early press release times for the XR6......

[FireArc]

Awful review by TGAUS. No relevant tests or figures returned to us. If it was Holden vs ford, what about luxury, small car and SUV comparisons? Towing comparisons, fuel economy, etc etc

It was a whole lot of nothing.

They didnt even have the guts to give us a verdict. TGUK wouldn't have been afraid to step on anyones toes by telling it like it is. I know its a new show over here but if they want to use the TG name then they need to grow some balls

[Alex(AUS)]

I knew all the Ford fans were going to get wound up. You guys really need to relax. I did say that the F6 was carrying more speed at the end and generally (because of ratios or otherwise) it will always do that regardless of why that is. However, regardless of speed when you cross the line, the car that gets there first wins. Whether that is because of poor grip or otherwise that is too bad. It may be because Ford/FPV didnt get the chasis right, or the LSD isnt enough for the power or the rubber is not good enough ... whatever it is ... it hasn't got it. Launching is HSV forte and strength that it makes the most of. Just like the I6 turbo. Therefore, it would be equivalent to Holden/HSV fans saying that we are only slower because we dont have forced induction. We dont and that is too bad ... you dont have the grip and that is too bad too.

At the end of the day, given and optimum launch, the F6 will be faster. So on average the magasine times are right (even though on a few occasions we have seen the HSV product being faster). BUT, in the same light (and same magasines) the HSV is also on average faster than the F6 around the track (even though the F6 accelerates faster and we have seen results the other way around).

You just have to face the facts ... we have and so should you. You see the LS1 forum has always been welcoming and nice about the F6 ... we all concede it is a great car. We all concede it has a good engine in the I6T that makes it accelerate quicker and gives it a F/I delivery we dont have. But there are plenty of things the FPV doesnt have too. What makes it quick to accelerate in a straight line (particularly low rev 80-120s) with a F/I delivery makes it erratic on the track and shows deficiencies (for that delivery) in its chassis, diff, tyres etc and it is then slower. In its standard form, it is also under braked, under tyred, under wheeled, under chassied etc. Premium brakes (which are still smaller than HSVs standard units and some other options that bring it to R8 spec) cost up to $7000+ which then makes the price very close to a GTS (which in turn has many other features the F6 doesn't). Many of the things the F6 lacks (tyres, wheels, diff, brakes, chassis etc) are all standard in the HSV for less. In a overall value proposition, the HSV is certainly better. It is also much better differentiated from the rest of the Holden range and previous models. However, The Holden has a poor A-Pillar design and apparently axle tramps under brakes.

So there are strengths and there are weaknesses of each spelled out right here. I am sure there are plenty more too (for each). We accept that because we are confident in our choice. However, this is something totally different with Ford fans and the HSV product. See, even though this is an LS1 forum you cannot help pushing a FPV product and making excuses that the results must be incorrect/rigged/taped wrong/launched wrong/inconsistent/boost lag/no stall/no grip/ etc etc etc. On this occasion, IT LOST; You only need one picture for that and no analysis. It doesnt matter if it got there with 1mph or won by 1cm. All that matters is who is in front at the end. Thats drag racing.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png

You claim that the F6 is far superior in all aspects when it is clearly not (sometimes not even in its strongest aspects) ...

Alex

[WOMBIE]

Yup it happens more than my wife putting her leg over me. :confused:

Surely you mean being put over your wife's knee :jester:

[seedyrom]

I knew all the Ford fans were going to get wound up. You guys really need to relax.
You are the only one wound up.
Infact you were so wound up you created a thread :rofl:

See, even though this is an LS1 forum you cannot help pushing a FPV product and making excuses that the results must be incorrect/rigged/taped wrong/launched wrong/inconsistent/boost lag/no stall/no grip/ etc etc etc. On this occasion, IT LOST;
No it didn't. And anyway, i'm a Holden fan, who came on here to support the Holden product, and ridicule the test. But your bleating has turned me against it.

You only need one picture for that and no analysis. It doesnt matter if it got there with 1mph or won by 1cm. All that matters is who is in front at the end. Thats drag racing.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png

You claim that the F6 is far superior in all aspects when it is clearly not (sometimes not even in its strongest aspects) ...

Alex
In post #13, point 2, I said they stopped vision short of the line.
You said they had vision of them both crossing it, but you keep using a picture short of the line (The Fuscia lines represent the gap from the finish line).

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/heeeeeeeee.png

Looks like the F6 had the smaller gap approaching the line to me :jester:

[Freaky]

Alex is the only one taking this segment seriously. Alex relax. How much time did you go over the video working out at those timepoints. lol.


Every forum I have read about this topic has pretty much had the same consensus, that the segment was absolute rubbish, a joke.


I bet this is the exact reaction the top gear guys wanted, to create hype.

[Mikey]

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/heeeeeeeee.png

Looks like the F6 had the smaller gap approaching the line to me :jester:
Ha Ha is that what you call tunnel vision:rofl:

[FlatfootV8]

Surely you mean being put over your wife's knee :jester:

No she is afraid that part of me would backfire...:smilesandbanana:

[Carby]

You are the only one wound up.
Infact you were so wound up you created a thread :rofl:

No it didn't. And anyway, i'm a Holden fan, who came on here to support the Holden product, and ridicule the test. But your bleating has turned me against it.

In post #13, point 2, I said they stopped vision short of the line.
You said they had vision of them both crossing it, but you keep using a picture short of the line (The Fuscia lines represent the gap from the finish line).

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/heeeeeeeee.png

Looks like the F6 had the smaller gap approaching the line to me :jester:

Ahh Seedy - have a look at the white line - notice how it seems very fat at the forefront and thin towards the Falcon end its called perspective - may have something to do with Alex's claim.

Anyway I don't think Alex needs to relax at all, we all acknowledge how good the F6 is (and this is a Holden forum!). We have seen numerous F6 vs R8/GTS in the papers and magazines (including this Top Gear test)- suffice to say that performance wise they are very close and given circumstances (type of track weather etc) that suit the car one could beat the other on any given day.

[Alex(AUS)]

In post #13, point 2, I said they stopped vision short of the line.
You said they had vision of them both crossing it, but you keep using a picture short of the line (The Fuscia lines represent the gap from the finish line).

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/heeeeeeeee.png

Looks like the F6 had the smaller gap approaching the line to me :jester:

HAHAHAHA LOL .. Someone was bound to say something like that.

The F6 is much further away so you cannot compare distances like that. The only thing that would be a constant size in that photo is the width of the rims (19"). So it is quite easy to compare, you measure the wheels of each (both 19") from the same camera and put them infront of the car. Like this;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/2925465167_26eda38858_o.jpg

The R8 won by just under the width of the line I would say. Which is what I said in the first post. It is ok ... THE F6 LOST ... it doesnt matter. It is faster sometimes.

Oh and there are pictures (as I said) after the line but mostly of the RED winning car.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2926318714_e2ce2d6f98_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/2926319152_d9767e0d57_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2926319592_0e1211713d_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2925466779_27b088e69a_o.png

If the track was maybe 430 meters it may have got just in front but unfortunately its not. But that can be used as a Ford excuse too ... "the international drag strip is too short".

Alex


Alex is the only one taking this segment seriously. Alex relax. How much time did you go over the video working out at those timepoints. lol.


Every forum I have read about this topic has pretty much had the same consensus, that the segment was absolute rubbish, a joke.


I bet this is the exact reaction the top gear guys wanted, to create hype.

I am relaxed. I agree that the segment was very bad. It only took me 20 mins to give some more value to their footage ... I have done some video stuff in the past. My post was there to give some insight that was sadly missing in the show. It is the Ford fans that were not happy with the facts I presented by using great logic like "it is faster but slower" and measuring distances from far like they were close.

BTW, from my place, the Realto Tower is only 2mm tall.

Alex

[Excellent]

Alex, I'm sure if you had an F6 you'd be saying the F6 is quicker. This video proves nothing really although your efforts in compiling the information for one performance test on a particular day are commendable.

I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the result one way or the other. Life's too short to worry about 0.001 seconds between cars.. if that makes sense. :confused:

[Holden Man]

Is that the supercharged V6 Camry ?!

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/Aurion.jpg

[boyley]

Is that the supercharged V6 Camry ?!

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/Aurion.jpg

Nice :bawl:

[Carby]

Alex, I'm sure if you had an F6 you'd be saying the F6 is quicker. This video proves nothing really although your efforts in compiling the information for one performance test on a particular day are commendable.

I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the result one way or the other. Life's too short to worry about 0.001 seconds between cars.. if that makes sense. :confused:

You certainly are confused - if Alex owned an F6 he would have just proved it lost the drag:jester:

[vlcalais8]

So, you are quoting magasine times (this months Motor) that show a GTS being faster than the F6 as fact that the F6 is faster? You compare this months GTS time in Motor (which was faster than an F6) to show that compared to a NZ mags time that the GTS is slower than the F6. LOL ROFL!!! That is sooo funny! Great logic; I love it! This must be what you call "proof" then. As per my post, we like to stick to scientific data as compared to conjecture here at LS1.

I have not read any NZ mag comparisons but from what I can remember the HSV Senator currently holds the fastest 0-100 and 0-400m times ever recorded by an Australian production car in an Australian magasine bar the W427 ...

The GTS and R8 are also consistently faster around the track by a fair margin ...

Alex

You have to be joking? You didnt read the part where they claim the F6 got excessive wheelspin where as the GTS hooked up well, ofcourse a car that almost matches another cars time with wheel spin will be faster. And thats just one test. Read around and open your eyes then you will see which is the better car plain and freakin simple. So laugh out loud all you like when really jokes on you for actually taking the time to sit there and calculate based on a shitty car show review

PS have a look at this then go analyse all you can

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=39085

[FireArc]

Alex, appreciate the obvious effort put into this analysis and the time you took to post the info. If only TGAUS took the time to present some decent statistics such as this...




It is faster sometimes.



And vice-versa for cars that *should* on paper be faster than the other (stock for stock):

YouTube - Stock XR6T vs VE HSV R8 307 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYS2WkDoCBc)

*shrugs*

I would suggest there is more analysis that could be done left right and centre from everyone but the fact of the matter is the review was a heap of *crap* both in the facts given and the way it was presented and it isn't worth everyone getting worked up over it (not pointing the finger here).

Cheers

[Penko]

Hey guys,

New motor arrived today with pcoty round 2 in it.

Both had the GTS and F6 compared with places given to each.

Cheers.

[deverson1]

My 2 cents.
Why is there no v8 from ford ?
Would that not be a better comparison why the turbo 6 ?
We all know ford has the quickets 6 but v8
:soap:

[FireArc]

I suppose the idea was to show the "best of the best" in terms of what the two camps offer as a performance package, not necessarily to compare engine types etc

Though i agree its another nail in the coffin for TGAUS as a V8 comparison would have been another good segment...though the result would have been fairly obvious

[seedyrom]

Subaru's 2.5L 4cyl turbo is quicker than its 3.0L 6 cyl atmo.

Thats why their performance flag bearer has the smaller capacity engine.

Its no different

[Alex(AUS)]

I suppose the idea was to show the "best of the best" in terms of what the two camps offer as a performance package, not necessarily to compare engine types etc

Though i agree its another nail in the coffin for TGAUS as a V8 comparison would have been another good segment...though the result would have been fairly obvious

If you cannot beat the GTS or R8 why would you want to have a comaprison with a W427 and F6 :D?


Hey guys,

New motor arrived today with pcoty round 2 in it.

Both had the GTS and F6 compared with places given to each.

Cheers.

Yes, this month WHEELS is also in and that has places for each too. I couldnt help to notice both MOTOR and WHEELS showed the HSV was quicker also. I was going to say that perhaps next time after the TG show the F6 will be quicker but perhaps after these two tries the 4th one will be the charm.


You have to be joking? You didnt read the part where they claim the F6 got excessive wheelspin where as the GTS hooked up well, ofcourse a car that almost matches another cars time with wheel spin will be faster. And thats just one test. Read around and open your eyes then you will see which is the better car plain and freakin simple. So laugh out loud all you like when really jokes on you for actually taking the time to sit there and calculate based on a shitty car show review

PS have a look at this then go analyse all you can

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=39085

I did look and I did say that grip is the HSV forte and the F6 problem otherwise it should be ultimately quicker ... too bad because that is how it is sold ... slower.


Alex, I'm sure if you had an F6 you'd be saying the F6 is quicker. This video proves nothing really although your efforts in compiling the information for one performance test on a particular day are commendable.

I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the result one way or the other. Life's too short to worry about 0.001 seconds between cars.. if that makes sense. :confused:

The only way I could do that would be to use "faster is slower" and "the Realto is 2mm high from here" Ford fan logic.

It lost no matter how you look at it. Maybe after this weeks TG, this months MOTOR and this months WHEELS the review after that will have faster figures ...

Alex

[holden6.0]

Boyley your pics of late are startin to worry me:rofl: get a hooker:)
alex keep up ya good work

[boyley]

Boyley your pics of late are startin to worry me:rofl: get a hooker:)

Mate I'm just trying to keep the inteligence of this thread even, I noticed you've deflated your age to suit too.:rofl:

[holden6.0]

Mate I'm just trying to keep the inteligence of this thread even, I noticed you've deflated your age to suit too.:rofl:

lol yeah it didnt take long - i thought u werent gettin enuff pink my bad
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg37/holdenssv/l_0ac7d5a045ca40fd84ef6df401cdee47.jpg

[misterS]

The thing that struck me, aside from Boyley having a close up picture of a dog's balls handy, was how flat the ford seemed and the holden seemed to have more body roll by comparison, when they were throwing them around.

The host said the ford handled better, but had "less mechanical grip". Presume this means the holden can get around the same corner quicker, irrespective of the body roll?

[Penko]

If you cannot beat the GTS or R8 why would you want to have a comaprison with a W427 and F6 :D?



Yes, this month WHEELS is also in and that has places for each too. I couldnt help to notice both MOTOR and WHEELS showed the HSV was quicker also. I was going to say that perhaps next time after the TG show the F6 will be quicker but perhaps after these two tries the 4th one will be the charm.


Alex

You talking about Motor November issue with pcoty round two in it. By the looks of it yes it was slower in acceleration but lap times it was quicker.

Cheers.

[VYR8HSV]

I think it is pretty simple.
If you are a Holden/HSV fan you will buy their product.
If you are a Ford fan you will buy their product.

No matter which car or make is quicker. You will end up buying what you like.
I am a Holden/HSV/HDT fan. Have been for the past 30 odd yrs.
Even if the Ford product was quicker/better I still wouldnt buy it.
I would not be seen dead in a Ford...
And that is pretty much the same with 80-90% ppl buying these types of cars.

Just be happy that for the $$$ for the cars & the performance we get from them.
Nowhere in the world do other countrys get this..
Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy...

Pete

[vlcalais8]

Some are you guys are real sad and really tarnish this forums name with your antics, for starters you actually sit there and look through other members posts since you obviously have nothing else to do but any way thats fine. Just to clarify I asked a question, posted up some info (which doesnt have a dig at any car) and yes maybe had a small dig at a Holden product but fark me not everyone has to like the same cars. Some people try have a go like the little school girl who is insecure and takes things the wrong way, stir people up then try be the E-hero who has to be correct and must be the macho man. Funny how I can respect cars from different manufacturers . Seriously go get lifes people I understand this is a prodominant Holden/HSV site but you are allowed to respect other cars and bring them up. Seems like the "Ford" word here is a little too much for some, must be that time of month eh

[Alex(AUS)]

You talking about Motor November issue with pcoty round two in it. By the looks of it yes it was slower in acceleration but lap times it was quicker.

Cheers.

Yep that is correct Penko. It was close and seemed strange considering the acceleration figures from the HSV (I think they mentioned that too) ... but it was slower and too bad ... Strangely, WHEELS showed quite a significant difference. Even in a 37 second race there was almost 1 second difference in favor of the GTS and it was the exact same car!!!. WHEELS did seem to be quite comprehensive but MOTOR showed a different story ... oh well, you win some and you lose some.

Alex

[FireArc]

If you cannot beat the GTS or R8 why would you want to have a comaprison with a W427 and F6 :D?
Alex

C'mon Alex now you are just getting a little petty here mate; there have also been videos and stats showing the F6 is faster so whats the difference? Different drivers, differents conditions, different results blah blah blah its all horses for courses.

For what its worth, i would LOVE to see this done as a comparison. I believe there is more in the F6 and W427 that has been shown by mags so far.

I probably should have been more specific though given how literal and sensitive people get on forums.

"The best of the best standard mass production car (not limited run special editions)"

[vecommo]

I think it is pretty simple.
If you are a Holden/HSV fan you will buy their product.
If you are a Ford fan you will buy their product.

No matter which car or make is quicker. You will end up buying what you like.
I am a Holden/HSV/HDT fan. Have been for the past 30 odd yrs.
Even if the Ford product was quicker/better I still wouldnt buy it.
I would not be seen dead in a Ford...
And that is pretty much the same with 80-90% ppl buying these types of cars.

Well said. I share exactly the same views.




Some are you guys are real sad and really tarnish this forums name with your antics, for starters you actually sit there and look through other members posts since you obviously have nothing else to do but any way thats fine. Just to clarify I asked a question, posted up some info (which doesnt have a dig at any car) and yes maybe had a small dig at a Holden product but fark me not everyone has to like the same cars. Some people try have a go like the little school girl who is insecure and takes things the wrong way, stir people up then try be the E-hero who has to be correct and must be the macho man. Funny how I can respect cars from different manufacturers. Seriously go get lifes people I understand this is a prodominant Holden/HSV site but you are allowed to respect other cars and bring them up. Seems like the "Ford" word here is a little too much for some, must be that time of month eh

I have been keeping out of this thread, but enough is enough!!
Sad??!! Do you know what's sad? It's you and the other hypocritical Ford fanbois who come here with your agendas, trying to force us all to get down on our knees and worship the Ford product, then attacking those who refuse.
Is is too difficult for you to comprehend that if a person does not like something, for whatever reason, then it is their ultimate right to do so?
Why should we be forced to acknowledge or respect something we do not like or have no interest in?
I do not like fords. I like holdens. That is why I am on a holden forum. I, as I'm sure many others here, have absolutely zero interest in ford and what really 'tarnishes' this forum is people like you who constantly keep pushing their pro-ford agendas.
If you appreciate fords, I have nothing against it at all, but ffs if you're going to carry on about them all the time then bugger off to the ford forum and leave this forum as a place where holden enthusiasts can discuss holdens in peace without having to read through mountains of garbage every day.

[GODSMACK]

I think a big congratulations needs to go out to vlcalais8 (aka XR6TGEN) for lasting this long without getting caught... Good work mate..

I await your "who the hell is XR6TGEN ' reply... As has been the case previously.

[DaveHAT]

I think a big congratulations needs to go out to vlcalais8 (aka XR6TGEN) for lasting this long without getting caught... Good work mate..

I await your "who the hell is XR6TGEN ' reply... As has been the case previously.

:bravo: well spotted.

Subtle ... but all the signs are there. :goodjob:

[Holden Man]

To save me reading this entire thread from the start, I just have to ask -

"so which car is quicker ?"











:jester:

[deverson1]

Well said. I share exactly the same views.






I have been keeping out of this thread, but enough is enough!!
Sad??!! Do you know what's sad? It's you and the other hypocritical Ford fanbois who come here with your agendas, trying to force us all to get down on our knees and worship the Ford product, then attacking those who refuse.
Is is too difficult for you to comprehend that if a person does not like something, for whatever reason, then it is their ultimate right to do so?
Why should we be forced to acknowledge or respect something we do not like or have no interest in?
I do not like fords. I like holdens. That is why I am on a holden forum. I, as I'm sure many others here, have absolutely zero interest in ford and what really 'tarnishes' this forum is people like you who constantly keep pushing their pro-ford agendas.
If you appreciate fords, I have nothing against it at all, but ffs if you're going to carry on about them all the time then bugger off to the ford forum and leave this forum as a place where holden enthusiasts can discuss holdens in peace without having to read through mountains of garbage every day.


Excelent i agree 100% :goodjob:

[seedyrom]

This thread was one-eyed garbage from the first post.


Just because someone is a ford driver/lover, doesn't give them any less right to express a view on a forum site of which they are a member.

They have the same rights as you, which is free reign to post whatever they want on the internet.

If people didn't question what was written, you would be living out of the back seat in your p76, holding on to your emu farm shares desperately waiting for their second boom.


Just as the road is their to share, no matter how bad a driver is, By passing their test, they are entitled to drive, even if you think they are terrible.


And remember, Alex(Aus) threw the first stone.

[nang3]

someone end this thread already !!!

like holden enough to buy red over anything else, buy one.
same with ford and blue.

If you are lucky like me and you dont really give a rats ass about the brand name - as long as its not the Yusucky Shlong from X manufacturer of course - then buy whatever the **** gives you the biggest chubby.

[GODSMACK]

This thread was one-eyed garbage from the first post.


Just because someone is a ford driver/lover, doesn't give them any less right to express a view on a forum site of which they are a member.

They have the same rights as you, which is free reign to post whatever they want on the internet.

If people didn't question what was written, you would be living out of the back seat in your p76, holding on to your emu farm shares desperately waiting for their second boom.


Just as the road is their to share, no matter how bad a driver is, By passing their test, they are entitled to drive, even if you think they are terrible.


And remember, Alex(Aus) threw the first stone. Agreed, Alex (AUS) needs a couple of weeks holiday me thinks.. :1peek:

[deverson1]

Wait for it I have the answer !!!!!!!!!!
Ford - Blue.
Holden - Red.
Has to be holden hands down. Everyone knows red is faster lol.
:smilesandbanana:

[Ned_Flanders666]

*Opens thread,has a read, farts then leaves*

[clubbie]

Some are you guys are real sad and really tarnish this forums name with your antics, for starters you actually sit there and look through other members posts since you obviously have nothing else to do but any way thats fine. Just to clarify I asked a question, posted up some info (which doesnt have a dig at any car) and yes maybe had a small dig at a Holden product but fark me not everyone has to like the same cars. Some people try have a go like the little school girl who is insecure and takes things the wrong way, stir people up then try be the E-hero who has to be correct and must be the macho man. Funny how I can respect cars from different manufacturers. Seriously go get lifes people I understand this is a prodominant Holden/HSV site but you are allowed to respect other cars and bring them up. Seems like the "Ford" word here is a little too much for some, must be that time of month eh

I just called a spade a spade.

First you contradict your self then you get defensive.
Then abusive....
Read my first post...."I said you make me laugh"
It is you whom is getting upset....take a chill pill.
Obviously you can dish it out....you just can't take it.

I could not care less if an F6 is a faster than a GTS in a straight line or the GTS is better around a track. At the end of the day it does not earn me an income or make a difference to my family life......in the overall scheme of things this is a pretty minor issue.

End of rant

Edit: Probably for the first time ever I agree with quantanemo. TG tried to keep both sides happy. As for magazines...Ford wins one Holden wins one and the cycle goes on. People buy the magazines and manufacturers up the ante with each new model....and on it goes. This is fun.

[djst]

The one thing that was really telling for me was the in gear accelleration of the F6.
I dont care what car won,but you can tell by just watching the F6 in both videos by how quick it catches up to the HSV from a slower take off,that this thing has some serious mumbo.
Generally from prevoius experience that when a car is reeling you in that fast,you hope the finish line is close.

[Alex(AUS)]

And remember, Alex(Aus) threw the first stone.

What are you talking about? I just posted some pictures from the TG show and gave you some analysis on it. What I said was exactly how it was ... Afterall, I posted some positive Holden / HSV information on a Holden forum. What is wrong with you?


Agreed, Alex (AUS) needs a couple of weeks holiday me thinks.. :1peek:

For what? Posting Holden/HSV info that didnt please Ford people on a Holden forum? The Ford fan logic is getting better and better ...

Alex

[pagey]

This thread was one-eyed garbage from the first post.



X 2

I have only just stoped laughing.. fuk me.. unbelievable... I am still coming to terms with the fact that someone could be arsed disecting a video to "prove" that shit... :rofl:

[Alex(AUS)]

X 2

I have only just stoped laughing.. fuk me.. unbelievable... I am still coming to terms with the fact that someone could be arsed disecting a video to "prove" that shit... :rofl:

I am glad you guys finally concede it is proof ... dont stress too much it only took me 20 minutes to do it ... it probably took you longer to read it.

Alex

[RED R8]

This thread reminded me why I shouldn't have opened this thread..lol

I watched the show with my wife and she said "whay don't they compare the R8 against a ford V8" I laughed so hard I did a little wee wee dribble..My reply was Ford don't do a V8...it was just easier to say that.

[gmeup]

Its well known that the facts are as follows


W427 > F6

End of thread. We know HSV's top dog is better than anything FPV has.

I love the FG xr6 turbo and F6 they are great cars but i would own a HSV over them. Both companys make great cars lets be happy australia is that lucky to have both of them.

[Ghosn]

"so which car is quicker ?"

Ford forums say the Ford won, Holden forums say the Holden won, the actual video shows a tie, go figure eh? Other than that, I'm still bewildered why so many morons have put so much time into argueing about the worst car comparison ever put together :confused:

[Alex(AUS)]

Ford forums say the Ford won, Holden forums say the Holden won, the actual video shows a tie, go figure eh? Other than that, I'm still bewildered why so many morons have put so much time into argueing about the worst car comparison ever put together :confused:

The more Ford fans kid themselves the worse they will get. I am confident that the evidence I showed was solid and demonstrated that the R8 clearly won by a small margin. Can Ford fans show any evidence to the contrary or are they just claiming it out of thin air? It was not meant to be a HSV is faster than FPV thing ... in fact, I openly said that given an optimum launch the F6 would be quicker in a straight line but generally slower around the track. The TG results were certainly also proven by this months MOTOR and WHEELS so I didnt say anything that was extraordinary anyway.

Ford fans may believe what they want ... but on the LS1 forum I have seen no evidence to the contrary so the R8 clearly won. Either Ford fans post evidence to the contrary or shut up and accept it. If you think this is a waste of time then dont make it more so by telling us that it is a waste of time.

On the Ford forums Ford fans can believe anything they like ...

Alex

[FG Turbo Ute]

They are both great cars, this type of test means little, to do a proper test they would need to be on the same rubber and the cars would need to be demo stock (more than one of each) not loaners to the journalists, I can’t see either manufacturer supplying a car that hadn’t had a special tune.
The Falcons come with Dunlop Sport Maxx tyres which aren’t the best, mine had them and they did spin easily, had them changed to Goodyear F1 Asymmetric which are way better.
Top Gear needs better presenters or get them to relax a bit, if it doesn’t improve it will get the axe.
I would expect that they would almost make sure neither came out in front of the other so as not to piss off either brand fans.
The people that should be the drivers on tests like this is the Holden and Ford test drivers as they know how to get the best from each make.

[payaya]

The more Ford fans kid themselves the worse they will get. I am confident that the evidence I showed was solid and demonstrated that the R8 clearly won by a small margin. Can Ford fans show any evidence to the contrary or are they just claiming it out of thin air? It was not meant to be a HSV is faster than FPV thing ... in fact, I openly said that given an optimum launch the F6 would be quicker in a straight line but generally slower around the track. The TG results were certainly also proven by this months MOTOR and WHEELS so I didnt say anything that was extraordinary anyway.

Ford fans may believe what they want ... but on the LS1 forum I have seen no evidence to the contrary so the R8 clearly won. Either Ford fans post evidence to the contrary or shut up and accept it. If you think this is a waste of time then dont make it more so by telling us that it is a waste of time.

On the Ford forums Ford fans can believe anything they like ...

Alex

What do you mean no evidence??? The presenters stated the F6 won the drag???? WTF??

Seriously just accept the facts, the F6 on an equal day will be quicker. Not sure about recent tests but mainly the F6 is quicker around a track.

My family has a HSV but I dont defend them like its a matter of life and death! You first say the drag was flawed, then you go get your stop watch and right angles out to prove the HSV is quicker???

Also why did the HSV have the racing line? Everyone knows the racing line always has more grip!

I have not yet seen a mag giving the nod to the HSV?? Seriously what are you trying to prove? :confused:

[Alex(AUS)]

What do you mean no evidence??? The presenters stated the F6 won the drag???? WTF??

Seriously just accept the facts, the F6 on an equal day will be quicker. Not sure about recent tests but mainly the F6 is quicker around a track.

My family has a HSV but I dont defend them like its a matter of life and death! You first say the drag was flawed, then you go get your stop watch and right angles out to prove the HSV is quicker???

Also why did the HSV have the racing line? Everyone knows the racing line always has more grip!

I have not yet seen a mag giving the nod to the HSV?? Seriously what are you trying to prove? :confused:

He said he had a "feeling" the F6 crossed the line first. I am not talking about feelings here. I am talking about straight evidence. There is no need for feelings then. The drag was flawed for both cars. And, judging by the amount of wheelspin from the R8 (you couldn't see the car) the left lane certainly didnt help in terms of grip. The F6 did not spin. If you want to read a comprehensive review that gives the nod to HSV by a long margin it is best you go and pick up this months WHEELS. The stupid thing about what this thread has developed into is that I have given you the same evidence the whole time ... you guys have come up with 1000 excuses as to why the F6 lost but no evidence of that what so ever. I can list your excuses if you like and then we will see who is defending what to the death ... In just your post we have the 1001st excuse ... "The left lane has more grip" ... I have said the same thing since post one. I am not trying to prove anything ... I did that in post 1. IT LOST. What are you trying to prove with no evidence and continual excuses?

Alex

[vxclubsport569]

Anyone else out there that really doesn't give a shite about who one or loss by tenths of a second???

In the real world it makes jack to which one is a better car and what a waste of time fighting over who won in a Top Gear race

Mods

:jerk:
:lock:

[Alex(AUS)]

Anyone else out there that really doesn't give a shite about who one or loss by tenths of a second???

In the real world it makes jack to which one is a better car and what a waste of time fighting over who won in a Top Gear race

Mods

:jerk:
:lock:

I dont understand. If you dont give a toss, why read it and then post in it?. Quite a number of people have liked the analysis. If you dont ... no one is forcing you ...

Alex

[michaels1v8]

Ford forums say the Ford won, Holden forums say the Holden won, the actual video shows a tie, go figure eh? Other than that, I'm still bewildered why so many morons have put so much time into argueing about the worst car comparison ever put together :confused:

I bewildered as to why they didnt have someone timing the f**Ckin thing to stop all this non sense talk:rofl:

I suppose any talk is good talk and good publicity for the show. Especially if a simple short review which had no real substance can cause such a controversy.

Seriously it was just some light hearted entertainment. Lets all chill out... maybe even hold hands around a camp fire and sing kumbayah

This thread sure has got messy:jester:

[pagey]

If i were part of N.A.S.A.. I would be getting very edgy right now.. hoping that Alex doesn't look to apply his super slueth skills against the "moon landing"...

[Alex(AUS)]

I bewildered as to why they didnt have someone timing the f**Ckin thing to stop all this non sense talk:rofl:

I suppose any talk is good talk and good publicity for the show. Especially if a simple short review which had no real substance can cause such a controversy.

Seriously it was just some light hearted entertainment. Lets all chill out... maybe even hold hands around a camp fire and sing kumbayah

This thread sure has got messy:jester:

Mate, I just posted some information that was sadly lacking from the show. It gave another perspective that some people actually appreciate. It showed real evidence of how each car performed and I hope provided some insight as to the delivery, outright performance and traction of each. I have not said anything new appart from backing up my initial post. Unfortunately, we have had no other valuable information since then apart from 8 pages of "super logic" and excuses from Ford fans (on the LS1 forum!!!) that added a whole stack of [brown] "filler".

Alex


If i were part of N.A.S.A.. I would be getting very edgy right now.. hoping that Alex doesn't look to apply his super slueth skills against the "moon landing"...

I thought that was already done ...

Alex

[sixlta]

lol this test sounded bias from the start when theyr describing the engines and when they both jump in the F6 u can just tell which car they wanted to be better. How can u test a cars braking abilities like that? 2 people in 2 cars with walkie talkies how can u say 1 didnt brake b4 the other? Only way anyone is really gona know how quick these cars are is when REAL ppl who havent been paid by EITHER manufacturer take their own R8s and F6s to the track and start posting some REAL times :)


Spot on mate. Couldn have said it better myself:goodjob:

[payaya]

Exactly! But to observe the footage and not take in what the presenters have to pay then paste the finish of the two vehicles in Windows Paint and put stupid arse lines in it to prove the presenters otherwise is sadly sad.

Also I looked at the BOM website and it stated their was very high winds that day. So considering the R8 was closer to the pits, it sort of was not affected by the winds (slip stream in a way) and the F6 copped it! Look at the photo below the guy in the white shirt has his hands in his pockets! Clearly PROVING he is cold from the wind.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2920941343_f7f2636887_o.png

Sorry had to say it. :bow:


Mate, I just posted some information that was sadly lacking from the show. It gave another perspective that some people actually appreciate. It showed real evidence of how each car performed and I hope provided some insight as to the delivery, outright performance and traction of each. I have not said anything new appart from backing up my initial post. Unfortunately, we have had no other valuable information since then apart from 8 pages of "super logic" and excuses from Ford fans (on the LS1 forum!!!) that added a whole stack of [brown] "filler".

Alex



I thought that was already done ...

Alex

Haha you should not have taken annual leave the day when NASA bungled the Mars Lander a couple years back with the confusion between MPH & KPH.

I guess its good to have debates like this in a way! Its a public discussion & its good to hear people thoughts! Variety to the spice of life right???

[pagey]

Jeez.. you guys are hard. it would have taken ages to do all that compter stuff...

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg12/pageyoz/Nerd.jpg?t=1223726716

[Alex(AUS)]

Jeez.. you guys are hard. it would have taken ages to do all that compter stuff...

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg12/pageyoz/Nerd.jpg?t=1223726716

Wow that is some hardcore equipment there. If he is using windows paint like payaya said I think it may take a while ... or, it may have been the stop for a smoke.

Alex


Also I looked at the BOM website and it stated their was very high winds that day. So considering the R8 was closer to the pits, it sort of was not affected by the winds (slip stream in a way) and the F6 copped it! Look at the photo below the guy in the white shirt has his hands in his pockets! Clearly PROVING he is cold from the wind.

:idea: That is the most credible Ford excuse so far! Well done! :D

Alex

[WOMBIE]

.......this thread still going.......


:sleep:

[Wonky]

.......Look at the photo below the guy in the white shirt has his hands in his pockets! Clearly PROVING he is cold from the wind.

You're kidding aren't you? :shock: He's clearly just enjoying a good old fashioned game of pocket billiards!! :lmao:

[VYII_R8]

Unless I am mistaken, I have never seen any HSV product ever get a 4.82 0-100km/h as per the scan BadMac posted up in here.

^^ That is definitive data that the F6 is quicker. Sure, no GTS or R8 to test on the day in question, but 4.82 0-100km/h is WAY faster than anytime recorded for an R8 or GTS right?

[mitchtj]

"I Just Want One"













Sorry, Im referring to a real review by some real reviewers :) Ship them to Clarkson for review please! (or shall we wait until Feb when he's down here?)

JK

sorry, but when is clarkson coming to australia?

[jai]

February for Top Gear Live. Sydney Feb 7ish from Memory

JK

[mulkers]

In zoom issue 119, there is a Power up guide for both the Turbo six and the Alloy 5.7

I think that that is a much better comparison of the two cars, and a $ for $ performance power up (for Straight line track work). And both are on par.



Photo finishes in horse races end when the nose crosses the line, not 30cms, or even 1 cm before.



Heisenberg theory, (as mentioned on the horse race in futurama); Measuring an outcome changes the results.


another point to also not is that the VE used in the test with plates "VE R8" has done that many tests its not funny, so theres a fair chance that it is a little worn

Worn? You mean run in :)


dont want to hijkak thread or anything but i just brought the nre motor mag , it got the performance car 08 shoot out , anyway they clocked a 13.43 for the ve gts and 13.49 for the f6..just though id mention it..

GTS and F6? Apples and oranges. Top of range vs Bottom of range



How many owners buy cars based on drag strip potential?

Quite a few i would say. I know that i am not the only one

[Carby]

In zoom issue 119, there is a Power up guide for both the Turbo six and the Alloy 5.7

I think that that is a much better comparison of the two cars, and a $ for $ performance power up (for Straight line track work). And both are on par.





Heisenberg theory, (as mentioned on the horse race in futurama); Measuring an outcome changes the results.



Worn? You mean run in :)



GTS and F6? Apples and oranges. Top of range vs Bottom of range



Quite a few i would say. I know that i am not the only one


The F6 is top of the range as far as performance is concerned, and HSV's GTS is third on the rung behind W427 and Senator( now available in manual)!

[Ghosn]

The F6 is top of the range as far as performance is concerned, and HSV's GTS is third on the rung behind W427 and Senator( now available in manual)!

Incorrect, if we are talking performance, GTS is 2nd. Don't know how the hell u got Senator above GTS, care to clarify? :confused:

[FireArc]

Its well known that the facts are as follows


W427 > F6

End of thread. We know HSV's top dog is better than anything FPV has.



For a car thats twice the price of the F6 you would want to hope so! (i'd personally choose the Nissan GTR at that price but thats a whole other discusison) While it's a comparison that i would love to see (done properly), we are talking here about the best of the best mass produced vehicles from these two companies, not special limited editions etc

[Carver3]

The F6 is top of the range as far as performance is concerned, and HSV's GTS is third on the rung behind W427 and Senator( now available in manual)!

I would rate the GTS as 1st, for even though the W427 is from the same company, plant and such as the GTS, it does have so much more smicko stuff on it.

GTS = F6 imho

Now the only current Ford to rate against the W427 would have to be the GT40 wouldn't? From what little I have seen about the W427, then the M5 and AMG S55(?) are the only big, four door vehicles that rate?

[motomk]

:closed:


Just practicing

[RED R8]

:closed:


Just practicing

I actually had a good chuckle at that motomk...

PS:keep this thread open it gives the ford whingers somewhere to post..:jester:

[Alex(AUS)]

I think they felt relieved for a second there ... I am sure it was real difficult coming up with all those excuses ... I am not sure how many more are possible; the logic was already ridiculous on page 1.

On a side note, today's TG was actually not too bad.

Alex

[Simmo77]

Guys

This is so simple to sort out.

Some one with a stock VE Clubsport put up their hand, someone with a stock F6 put up your hand and goto WSID.

3 runs, post the results and here we go again :)

[SHANESVZSS]

+1

id love to see that for myself..

[Carby]

Incorrect, if we are talking performance, GTS is 2nd. Don't know how the hell u got Senator above GTS, care to clarify? :confused:

Well I suppose I was looking at it from a price perspective, but I don't think there would be too much difference bewteen a Manual Senator and a Manual GTS - they both have MRC (different seetings), depending where you test them they would have similar performance times - certainly no differences in drivetrain.

[Mr. Whippy]

I am not sure how many more are possible; the logic was already ridiculous on page 1.
Alex

Including your posts? Yes I would agree wholeheartedly.

[Alex(AUS)]

Including your posts? Yes I would agree wholeheartedly.

Hi Mr. Whippy,

That is fair enough; you are entitled to your opinion. But, can you please give something constructive. I believe everything I said had some scientific basis and was very accurate. However, everything else from the Ford fans seemed to be random excuses from then on. Please contribute something substantial. Are there any other scientific conclusions that we can come up with using the video data? Please demonstrate ...

Thanks,

Alex


Guys

This is so simple to sort out.

Some one with a stock VE Clubsport put up their hand, someone with a stock F6 put up your hand and goto WSID.

3 runs, post the results and here we go again :)

I really doubt that would sort anything out. I am sure that whoever loses will excuse this by claiming cheating / tune and 1000s of other things (like now). This is why I would have thought that magasine comparisons were fairly respectable. Well, perhaps not a single magasine but a cross section. At the moment we have basically the exact same results I claimed from MOTOR, WHEELS and TG when they compared the HSV R8/GTS and the F6. Are there any other comparisons we can look at?

Alex

[Penko]

Hi Mr. Whippy,

That is fair enough; you are entitled to your opinion. But, can you please give something constructive. I believe everything I said had some scientific basis and was very accurate. However, everything else from the Ford fans seemed to be random excuses from then on. Please contribute something substantial. Are there any other scientific conclusions that we can come up with using the video data? Please demonstrate ...

Thanks,

Alex

Hey

A lot of it makes sence with all the measurments and using the 19inch wheels was a good option as that is the only measurment that both cars share. Just a question where did you get the 19inch wheel measurment from, you said you got it from a photo of the two?

Also have you worked out the depth of the two cars to one another becuase a 19 on the HSV (closer) will be different on the FPV (further away) if you use the same wheel, or a measurment from a different photo.

If this is stupid i will stand corrected.

Cheers.

[seedyrom]

I believe everything I said had some scientific basis and was very accurate.
there was nothing scientific about it.

You've said yourself about video footage being shot post the actual run (referring to the drive.com.au footage). Yet somehow there were no multiple runs on TopGear when filming?
Even though the only two people in a position to comment (the drivers) said the Ford got the line honours.

Basing science evidence on made-for-tv editing?
:rolleyes:

Its a wonder we ever split the atom

However, everything else from the Ford fans seemed to be random excuses from then on.

Would you get over that?
Its not smart, nor clever.
I'm not a ford fan, yet still think your "scientific basis" is bullshit at best.

Infact, it has only been you as a fan-boi jumping up and down that has anyone even commenting on it.

The holden lost. I cried for hours into my pillow that night. Then got on with my life.

Please do the same

[Alex(AUS)]

Hey

A lot of it makes sence with all the measurments and using the 19inch wheels was a good option as that is the only measurment that both cars share. Just a question where did you get the 19inch wheel measurment from, you said you got it from a photo of the two?

Also have you worked out the depth of the two cars to one another becuase a 19 on the HSV (closer) will be different on the FPV (further away) if you use the same wheel, or a measurment from a different photo.

If this is stupid i will stand corrected.

Cheers.

The photos before. Same camera/angle. The cars both run perpendicular to the camera and in a straight line (fairly equal distance from one another in the last 10m). The camera does not seem to distort the image. I think the actual is very close to what I stated.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2925464801_648af68ba2_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/2925465167_26eda38858_o.jpg

You could easily do the same from the last photo because you can see the centre of the wheel. Just go to that (it is exactly half of 19").

I wouldnt even think of any depth calculations ...

Alex



there was nothing scientific about it.

You've said yourself about video footage being shot post the actual run (referring to the drive.com.au footage). Yet somehow there were no multiple runs on TopGear when filming?
Even though the only two people in a position to comment (the drivers) said the Ford got the line honours.

Basing science evidence on made-for-tv editing?
:rolleyes:

Its a wonder we ever split the atom


Would you get over that?
Its not smart, nor clever.
I'm not a ford fan, yet still think your "scientific basis" is bullshit at best.

Infact, it has only been you as a fan-boi jumping up and down that has anyone even commenting on it.

The holden lost. I cried for hours into my pillow that night. Then got on with my life.

Please do the same

Oh just a great repeat post seedy!

You called everything I did bullshit but failed to show anything to the contrary or explain why it was bullshit. Sheer genius on your part. How do you do it? Show something to the contrary maite ... let see what you've got ...

I dont care about the editing maite. Right now, we seem to be talking about the result. You only need the last photo for that (no other video). Are you saying they edited the result in the video by moving the cars back and forth LOL ROFL.

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here; "You've said yourself about video footage being shot post the actual run (referring to the drive.com.au footage). Yet somehow there were no multiple runs on TopGear when filming?"

The commentator said he had a "feeling" the Ford was just infront. There is no need for "feelings" when you have photographic evidence of what actually happened.

Alex

[seedyrom]

Have you ever been down a drag strip driving a 13 sec car?

[Carver3]

Have you ever been down a drag strip driving a 13 sec car?

Now Seedy, no need to rub it into us wagon drivers that we might be a little slow...

...or is that just me a little slow?.....

[Alex(AUS)]

Have you ever been down a drag strip driving a 13 sec car?

Yep. Been there many many times ...

Alex

[FireArc]

Alex,

From the information you have presented, i think it is fair to say that on this occasion the R8 won by poofteenths of a millisecond. I dont think anyone here is really denying that and i for one am enjoying this discussion.

There are some things though that need to be accepted in terms of contributors:
-The jump off the line by the R8 as you highlighted in your first post. Although this only contributed to a few tenths of a second head start, it also contributed to additional momentum in favour of the R8. The R8 by this time was already starting to get up and boogy, so momentum was on its side; the F6 wasn't even out of the blocks and still had the large task of getting the car into motion, let alone make up the time it lost
-The F6 not being stalled up off the line
-The distinct lack of data provided by the show (for all we know the two cars did 14.5 second 1/4 miles at 150km/h as an example) which may completely invalidate this whole discussion
-The fact that the presenters (i.e. the people driving the cars) suggested that the F6 took the win
-The fact that the F6 seemed to quite effortlessly round up the R8 despite being at a serious disadvantage from the start without a correct launch.

Now i'm not disagreeing with the "scientific" data that you have clearly presented however without the final data that was missing from the show (60" time, 1/4 mile time, Terminal Velocity, etc) it is hard to be 100% and i think it is coming across as a bit of clutching at straws. The fact that you had to so vehemtly pick the "race" apart to try to find a victory for the R8 through footage that is suspect at best when the presenters have given us nothing to work with except their own conclusion that the F6 won.

What is clear are results that have all the data presented for us, the viewer and reader, including:

The NZ AutoCar magazine review as mentioned by BadMac in post 47


0-100 km/h

F6: 4.99s
Audi S3: 6.46s
Evo X SST: 5.45s

80-120 km/h

F6: 2.64s
Audi S3: 3.61s
Evo X SST: 3.59s

The F6 vs R8 Head to Head mentioned by Seedyrom in post 44 of this thread:

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=39085

The lap time around Winton AND Wakefield as mentioned by Penko in post 45 of this thread and here where the F6 was 1 second faster than the R8 - http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=96039&highlight=f6+quicker

Now some more real world results including the 12.89 posted by a standard G6ET (less powerful than an F6)


From the Drag Forum.WSID.
GE6 Turbo, Bog Stock, with its single spinner...awesome result...
12.89 @ 108mph WITH A 2.12 60FT TIME,
link: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11233547

Cheers

[seedyrom]

Yep. Been there many many times ...

Alex
So you watch the other car when racing?

[VIXEN-T]

FIREARC :goodjob:well said

[seedyrom]

I now have the evidence to support the methods in which you performed your scientific analysis.

Excuse me if it seems a little crude, I didn't have time to gather much equipment

YouTube - magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lVcYHMp7U4)


Yep ... video editing is surely scientific, and worthy of resting your credibility on

The camera never lies :)

[Penko]

Yep. Been there many many times ...

Alex

Yep fair call i can see where you got the f6 19inch from.

Just wondering where did you get the speeds from, for the two cars for the end. Sure you showed us where they would be in 19inch's time and who was closer to the finish line but did you take speed into account.

As the video shows the F6 was gaining pretty quick, 19inch's isn't much and nothing may change but how do you know that the F6 didn't cover the final few inchs quicker than the R8 thus making it across the line first. The photo is before the line and those final few inches can make the difference. We can't predict the future.

Cheers.

[Alex(AUS)]

Hi FireArc,

Firstly, I would like to thank you for a constructive post which has been sadly lacking in this thread. Also, I would like to apologize to anyone that thought I was coming across as overly aggressive. It certainly was not my intention. However, I did get quite complacent after a number of people called my conclusions as bullshit without any other details. Afterall, this is a Holden forum and I am allowed to do that. By all means, go ahead and post any discussion and comparisons here as you see fit. I do not consider this as "my" thread but I do see my analysis as valid with all things considered as per my original post. If you know my analysis is bullshit then show how that is.

I have not posted nor read anything since the start of this topic on any Ford forum.

That being out of the way;


From the information you have presented, i think it is fair to say that on this occasion the R8 won by poofteenths of a millisecond. I dont think anyone here is really denying that and i for one am enjoying this discussion.

That is right. It was very very close in favour of the R8. But it is certain that no Ford fans acknowledges this result.


The jump off the line by the R8 as you highlighted in your first post. Although this only contributed to a few tenths of a second head start, it also contributed to additional momentum in favour of the R8. The R8 by this time was already starting to get up and boogy, so momentum was on its side; the F6 wasn't even out of the blocks and still had the large task of getting the car into motion, let alone make up the time it lost


I did acknowledge the jump in the very first post. 2 tenths or so should account for around 1 car length of advantage across the track. After the jump (which only shows a quarter of a car length difference at the start) the cars will settle to their respective acceleration thereafter. I dont know what you mean about compounding momentum you seem to imply.



-The F6 not being stalled up off the line


I have acknowledged that. I did argue that no stall is a better representation of real world performance. I certainly dont stall my car up as I drive ... but it is a valid point for the track.



-The distinct lack of data provided by the show (for all we know the two cars did 14.5 second 1/4 miles at 150km/h as an example) which may completely invalidate this whole discussion


I could probably do alot more work and figure something out. However, I wont. Being autos, we can assume that they kept the foot down. Again, real world performance.



-The fact that the presenters (i.e. the people driving the cars) suggested that the F6 took the win


We have covered this quite a few times. Feelings are one thing ... photos of the finish are another.



-The fact that the F6 seemed to quite effortlessly round up the R8 despite being at a serious disadvantage from the start without a correct launch.


This is a myth. I think it does come across that way because that footage is repeated quite a few times. After the R8 stopped wheelspining the F6 was right on its back door. The R8 actually pulled away from the F6 right to the end of the pit lane to the tune of approx 3 (or more meters). The F6 only closes that gap in the last second of acceleration. Afterall, it didnt quite catch it by the end of the 400m (think about that).



Now i'm not disagreeing with the "scientific" data that you have clearly presented however without the final data that was missing from the show (60" time, 1/4 mile time, Terminal Velocity, etc) it is hard to be 100% and i think it is coming across as a bit of clutching at straws. The fact that you had to so vehemtly pick the "race" apart to try to find a victory for the R8 through footage that is suspect at best when the presenters have given us nothing to work with except their own conclusion that the F6 won.


Fair enough. I didnt need to pick at much to find a victory. But there are plenty of variables there (that I have acknowledged from the start).



What is clear are results that have all the data presented for us, the viewer and reader, including:

The NZ AutoCar magazine review as mentioned by BadMac in post 47


That is correct. But the test was isolated (ie did not directly compare a HSV product on the day). However, current real comparisons (MOTOR and WHEELS) show the HSV product accelerating faster. I think that is more valueable material for a "comparison". Well done to FPV for achieving that time there though ...



The F6 vs R8 Head to Head mentioned by Seedyrom in post 44 of this thread:


Yep, that is a good comparison too. Quite close. Just like this one and also the WHEELS, MOTOR comparisons. I have found that the HSV auto to be quicker (perhaps more consistent). Therefore, it would be fair to compare both stalled up or not (the F6 was where the R8 was a manual) rather than a manual / auto. Ultimately, I think the HSV manual may be able to get the best times but it would not be as consistent.



The lap time around Winton AND Wakefield as mentioned by Penko in post 45 of this thread and here where the F6 was 1 second faster than the R8 - http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=96039&highlight=f6+quicker


There are numerous tests which go the other way. Including this months WHEELS.



Now some more real world results including the 12.89 posted by a standard G6ET (less powerful than an F6)


Well done. I can neither confirm nor deny that.


Now you have to acknowledge the following.

- Not being stalled up has some real world comparison value and it is also good to see these results.
- From my results it is clear that the R8 wheelspined much more and therefore had some disadvantage as compared to the F6 which did not.
- The F6 did claw back most of the lost time after this wheelspin to get to the rear door of the R8 (which considering the drive video is a common grip advantage it would have at that point under optimum conditions anyway).
- The R8 did pull away in the middle of the track.


Alex


So you watch the other car when racing?

I watch the road mainly. But I do take a glance now and then. Usually, I am not concerned with which is faster because the car next to me is not comparable. I have not raced the Senator (and probably will not). I have driven every performance ford incarnation since BA but not FG (waiting for the chance).

Alex


I now have the evidence to support the methods in which you performed your scientific analysis.

Excuse me if it seems a little crude, I didn't have time to gather much equipment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lVcYHMp7U4


Yep ... video editing is surely scientific, and worthy of resting your credibility on

The camera never lies :)

Are you claiming they doctored the video now?

Alex


Yep fair call i can see where you got the f6 19inch from.

Just wondering where did you get the speeds from, for the two cars for the end. Sure you showed us where they would be in 19inch's time and who was closer to the finish line but did you take speed into account.

As the video shows the F6 was gaining pretty quick, 19inch's isn't much and nothing may change but how do you know that the F6 didn't cover the final few inchs quicker than the R8 thus making it across the line first. The photo is before the line and those final few inches can make the difference. We can't predict the future.

Cheers.

I would really rather not go over it because it is complicated. But, it is valid. The easiest way for you to understand that would be that the F6 only makes up the gap in the last second of racing otherwise it is actually behind and the R8 is faster mid track. Its definately not by alot and I would attribute both of their accelerations away to the different gear ratios. I am sure the F6 will carry over the line before accelerating in 4th. Whereas the R8 will have to complete the shift and accelerate in 4th to cross the line. It takes my car between 0.5-0.6 seconds to complete a shift in stock form.

Alex

[sh|tbmxrider]

- Not being stalled up has some real world comparison value and it is also good to see these results. Not Particularly, I know if I want to get a auto, be it in a V8 or I6T I load it up
- From my results it is clear that the R8 wheelspined much more and therefore had some disadvantage as compared to the F6 which did not. Less of a disadvantage than the R8 jumping?
- The R8 did pull away in the middle of the track. I dont have access to the video here at work, but it seems the only place the R8 was winning was the start, and the F6 really storming home, the appearance of the R8 pulling further away being more to film editing than reality...and across the line? even, or too close to call either way to be trumpeting about


Alex

Are you claiming they doctored the video now? A TV show would never do that, would they? :P I would be mighty surprised if the race, as shown, if all the frames are in exact order....

Alex


My responses in bold

-Drew

[CarlFST60L]

I think 95% of the people that comment need to spend a day in either car both on the road instead of using 1 eye to come up with their opinion.. Especially some of the avid Ford boys.

I had a quick look, and agree with Alex's post. But, at the end of the day, the test was stupid, 100m burnout from the R8, and no sign of go from the F6 of the mark so he was obviously not stalling it up, let along stalling it in 2nd then flicking back to first for the launch. Dont get me started on 'warming up the tyres', if you have driven around a like they were, you would know how messed up your tyres get. Also, wtf is with all the F6 drifting fun and f all in the R8? Maybe the owner was there and said your not doing that Sh!t to my car.

[seedyrom]

Are you claiming they doctored the video now?

Alex
You are seriously that full of venemous hateful spite that you can't see it for what it is?

You keep telling me to stop repeating myself.

Well how about you listen?

The footage was shot multiple times. They had many "drags". The footage was pieced together from various bits on the cutting room floor

The camera that video taped your most precious "fact" ... the crossing of the line (albeit 1 foot away from it), is atleast an SP Beta Cam, or other broadcast level camera.

Have a look at the screen shots you provided.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png
Okay, we need atleast 1 foot of broadcast quality camera hanging into the track, at track level

Can't see it sorry

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2920941749_fb1cd214f8_o.png


Did they seriously have a drag race with a camera car in front of them :rofl: :lol:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2921784982_3f9cd545e8_o.png

Notice the witches hats marking the starting line?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2921819292_f9eb683d2d_o.png

Where are they in the shot from in front?


This was all about pretty filming to present something "even" to appease the fans of both camps.

It wasn't real.


Did they even ever say it was over a quarter mile or 400m?
I thought they just said "traffic light duel"

[Alex(AUS)]

My responses in bold

-Drew

The frames are absolutely NOT in order and the same footage is repeated.

Do you cruise around stalling up the car at the lights???

I think the jump being equal or not to the wheelspin is debatable. So, I agree there. However I can definatively say that the grip differential and jump were not worth more than 1 car. However, it was close by the start of the pits (just after end of wheelspin) the F6 being on the R8 rear door. By the end of the pit wall the R8 had pulled away quite a bit.

Start of pit wall (just after wheelspin);

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2920941749_fb1cd214f8_o.png

End of pit wall;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2920941343_f7f2636887_o.png

Remember that this image is not videoed square on so the difference will more than the gap appears from that angle.

Alex


You are seriously that full of venemous hateful spite that you can't see it for what it is?

You keep telling me to stop repeating myself.

Well how about you listen?

The footage was shot multiple times. They had many "drags". The footage was pieced together from various bits on the cutting room floor

The camera that video taped your most precious "fact" ... the crossing of the line (albeit 1 foot away from it), is atleast an SP Beta Cam, or other broadcast level camera.

Have a look at the screen shots you provided.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3246/2921786414_653503b076_o.png
Okay, we need atleast 1 foot of broadcast quality camera hanging into the track, at track level

Can't see it sorry

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2920941749_fb1cd214f8_o.png


Did they seriously have a drag race with a camera car in front of them :rofl: :lol:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/2921784982_3f9cd545e8_o.png

Notice the witches hats marking the starting line?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2921819292_f9eb683d2d_o.png

Where are they in the shot from in front?


This was all about pretty filming to present something "even" to appease the fans of both camps.

It wasn't real.


Did they even ever say it was over a quarter mile or 400m?
I thought they just said "traffic light duel"

I always said that the footage may be from a number of races but with the same outcome because I cannot see any differences in the different camera views in terms of results. It seems that it is the same race.

Do you expect me to see a camera on the ground (of any type) from 300m away from the finish (even by zooming into the image) LOL? I have absolutely no idea what camera they would have used or why so I cant comment on that.

The drag race goes for at least 400m long. From satellite imagery and the length of the straight it may be even longer.

I dont know if they had a drag with a camera car in front or a person was standing on the road zooming in from far or what ... this certainly says nothing.

It is quite far but I can see the witches hats but not the middle one. Is there a slight curve?

Anyway, why is this so difficult to believe when the exact same thing happened in both MOTOR and WHEELS this month with the statistics and everything ???????? And, I didnt produce the facts in those ... same outcome. Geez magic! Maybe we should call them and ask them if it was the same race / strip / surface / stall / weather / lane / video tape / device / etc etc .... or maybe ... just maybe ... the F6 is sometimes slower.

Alex

[seedyrom]

Anyway, why is this so difficult to believe when the exact same thing happened in both MOTOR and WHEELS this month with the statistics and everything ????????
yet you don't believe stats that say otherwise?

[Alex(AUS)]

yet you don't believe stats that say otherwise?

I do!!! I agree!!! I said the F6 would be ultimately faster given the grip/stall etc etc!!! READ WHAT I AM SAYING!!!

My point is the HSV is quite fast and sometimes (3 times this month) faster than the F6. In either case, it is very close.

BTW. This dude must be crazy standing on the track during an F1 race :D

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/2008/tests/ferrari_fiorano/1_ferrari_fiorano.jpg

HEHEHE ... Take it easy and admit the HSV is sometimes faster than the F6 because of its superior grip (even when I dont do the stats) like TG, MOTOR and WHEELS.

Alex

[seedyrom]

:lol:

Very good :)

[VYII_R8]

Top Gear Aus footage and arguments aside....

Unless I am mistaken, I have never seen any HSV product ever get a 4.82 0-100km/h as per the scan BadMac posted up in here.

^^ That is definitive data that the F6 is quicker. Sure, no GTS or R8 to test on the day in question, but 4.82 0-100km/h is WAY faster than anytime recorded for an R8 or GTS right?

[Alex(AUS)]

Top Gear Aus footage and arguments aside....

Unless I am mistaken, I have never seen any HSV product ever get a 4.82 0-100km/h as per the scan BadMac posted up in here.

^^ That is definitive data that the F6 is quicker. Sure, no GTS or R8 to test on the day in question, but 4.82 0-100km/h is WAY faster than anytime recorded for an R8 or GTS right?

It is difficult to say because no HSV was there on that day. The official time they recorded seems to be a 4.9 but they were able to get a quicker time (4.8) on a grippier surface. However, as you are aware, recent tests of both cars (both manual and auto) have gone HSVs way when both cares were compared on the same day. This gives a more realistic "comparison".

FYI, the fastest recorded VE time (of any Australian production car ever in an Aussie mag bar the W427) is a 0-100 in 5.0 and a 0-400m in 13.1 from a VE Senator. So depending on which result you take as the claimed one ... 4.99 is basically the same and the faster unofficial one is 0.2 seconds quicker.

Alex

[Penko]

It is difficult to say because no HSV was there on that day. The official time they recorded seems to be a 4.9 but they were able to get a quicker time (4.8) on a grippier surface. However, as you are aware, recent tests of both cars (both manual and auto) have gone HSVs way when both cares were compared on the same day. This gives a more realistic "comparison".

FYI, the fastest recorded VE time (of any Australian production car ever in an Aussie mag bar the W427) is a 0-100 in 5.0 and a 0-400m in 13.1 from a VE Senator. So depending on which result you take as the claimed one ... 4.99 is basically the same and the faster unofficial one is 0.2 seconds quicker.

Alex


You said the R8 was quicker mid track but how do you know it is in fact quicker without a reading. I am still confused in how you are working out the final foot of the race. You can not speculate what will happen in that final foot can you. Without accurate speed readings the whole race is just a speculation. Distances from the line to be covered are irellevent if the speed is not known.

Also as seedy said about the hats not being seen from the front photo their would also be some remains from the R8 smoke leaving the line. If it is the same race the front shot would only be around a few seconds after and the smoke would not of cleared that quickly. They are of different races put together.

cheers.

[Alex(AUS)]

You said the R8 was quicker mid track but how do you know it is in fact quicker without a reading. I am still confused in how you are working out the final foot of the race. You can not speculate what will happen in that final foot can you. Without accurate speed readings the whole race is just a speculation. Distances from the line to be covered are irellevent if the speed is not known.

Also as seedy said about the hats not being seen from the front photo their would also be some remains from the R8 smoke leaving the line. If it is the same race the front shot would only be around a few seconds after and the smoke would not of cleared that quickly. They are of different races put together.

cheers.

Huh? I know the R8 is quicker mid track because it pulls away from the F6 as per my video grabs last post. I know the F6 catches up right at the end because it is still behind at the line but gets there just after they cross. The rate at which the F6 is catching is based on how long a time is elapsed for it to catch up (ie time vs approx distance of 1 car length or part thereof). I can measure this from the video just like the jump. I posted all that in one of the earliest posts. The actual speed they cross the line may be possible to approximate but isnt really necessary. The cars are auto and I am sure they know how to keep the foot down.

Alex

[CarlFST60L]

I get the feeling/commentators from the video that they wanted them to cross the line at the same time, they wanted there to be no winners so they wouldn't piss people off, they raced a few times and wanted that result, so they made it happen.

[quantanemo]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:bow::bow::bow:

[Alex(AUS)]

I get the feeling/commentators from the video that they wanted them to cross the line at the same time, they wanted there to be no winners so they wouldn't piss people off, they raced a few times and wanted that result, so they made it happen.

That may be the case but the magasines are getting pretty much the same result and actually declaring winners/losers based on them. It cant be too far away from the truth. Though Ford fans will have you believe it is all a conspiracy theory against them. Even when they declare the F6 slower but the outright winner ... they will say it is both faster and the outright winner. When it is loses both the drag and the comparison they will say it is a dodgy result. The only result they will except is faster and winner. Whether that is true it doesnt matter at all.

I believe we have come to the point that HSV is actually just as fast (considering its strengths with grip but disadvantage in delivery). There are plenty of results to support that. Sometimes it will win, sometimes it will lose.

Alex

[nang3]

i reckon this video is getting more scrutiny than the grassy knoll video from 45 years ago hahaha

[jasper361]

Some people have too much time on their hand, they're just cars, both fast, enjoy them for what they are! :weirdo:

[FireArc]

i reckon this video is getting more scrutiny than the grassy knoll video from 45 years ago hahaha

hehehe well said but its about to get a bit more scrutiny,

Alex, thanks for your detailed response to mine; this is a good discussion!

In my mind, unless we know the final speed of both cars as they cross the line, its practically impossible to know whether the F6 made up the gap (or whether it had the speed to potentially make up the gap) or not.

Basically, the question is; Can the Ford make up the gap in time to take the win? Was it going fast enough by the end? Or more importantly, was it POSSIBLE for the Ford to make up the gap to take the win based on the jump start of the R8?

Without the actual speed of the cars as they cross the line, it is a bit hard to know...

But to add a few more points to the discussion, consider the photo finish below of the other review that has been brought up in this thread. I'm going to use this result as an example (despite the large amount of wheelspin off the line from the F6 in this particular review) as it shows pretty much the speed capable of both cars down the 1/4 mile:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x242/ThundaBird/f6vsr8.jpg

Here we see the F6 crosses the line 4.2 km/h faster than the R8. This equates to 1.16 meters per second, so the F6 at that point is making up 1.16metres every second on the R8 at the fastest point of the race.

According to your first post, you suggested that the advantage to the R8 off the line was 2.4 milliseconds, equivolent to 1.1 car lengths. The VE R8 is 4943mm long so a 1.1 car length advantage equates to an advantage of 4.9873 metres.

You suggested that the wheel spin of the R8 washed off half of the advantage that the R8 had gained by jumping the start.

This means according to what you are suggesting, the R8 still has an unfair advantage of 2.49365 metres that the F6 has to make up.

If the F6, at its FASTEST point of the race (i.e. when it is crossing the line) is only able to make up 1.16 metres per second (according to the picture and calculations above), then there is little chance that it is going to make up 2.49356 metres when it is already behind the R8 in terms of speed and momentum.

So what i am trying to get at is, YES, the R8 crossed the line first, BUT the jump off the line gave it a winning advantage that was greater than you think and greater than is being suggested in this thread.

On the street, this all means very little. If you lose, you lose, but then street races also quite frequently go for longer than 400m which is where the F6 would come into its own.

Interestingly, the R8 probably would have gotten a nice Cherry on the Christmas Tree lights at the drags as it broke out and was kicked out of the competition for losing that round...

Just food for thought, and once again without knowing the speeds of the cars as they cross the line this is all really just sh!ts and giggles.

Good chat tho,

[CarlFST60L]

hehehe

I got a bit lost half way through your post. Its not right to compare a race where the R8 is doing a >100m long burnout. If I do that at the drag's, it knocks half a second + of my quarter time and a >4mph.

[FireArc]

Which race are you referring to that the R8 does a >100m long burnout? The topgear one? If so, according to Alex it only lost half of its advantage as i mentioned in my post, so it still carries a 2.49365 metre advantage. If you are referring to the other review, the commentator mentioned there was no wheelspin from the R8, stating "straight away the HSV R8 just launches off the line" and "it gets the power to the ground brilliantly, it just takes off". So i'm not sure which race you are referring to?

Which brings us back to the original issue. I was only able to use an example of a review that had actually given us the results, unlike this case.

In the end, without knowing the final speeds of the cars, we dont know whether (a) the F6 could have made the gap or (b) whether the jump off the start by the R8 was too much to be made up.

End of story really...

[CarlFST60L]

Which race are you referring to that the R8 does a >100m long burnout? The topgear one? If so, according to Alex it only lost half of its advantage as i mentioned in my post, so it still carries a 2.49365 metre advantage. If you are referring to the other review, the commentator mentioned there was no wheelspin from the R8, stating "straight away the HSV R8 just launches off the line" and "it gets the power to the ground brilliantly, it just takes off". So i'm not sure which race you are referring to?

Which brings us back to the original issue. I was only able to use an example of a review that had actually given us the results, unlike this case.

In the end, without knowing the final speeds of the cars, we dont know whether (a) the F6 could have made the gap or (b) whether the jump off the start by the R8 was too much to be made up.

End of story really...

Im guessing you didnt watch topgear? there is a youtube link on the first page. The R8 does a massive burnout. And my comments about half a second and 4mph are from actual experince at an actual race track, not something i read on a forum or watched on a tv show.

Personally, I dont care about the whole argument, just trying to keep it real.

[Alex(AUS)]

hehehe well said but its about to get a bit more scrutiny,

Alex, thanks for your detailed response to mine; this is a good discussion!

In my mind, unless we know the final speed of both cars as they cross the line, its practically impossible to know whether the F6 made up the gap (or whether it had the speed to potentially make up the gap) or not.

Basically, the question is; Can the Ford make up the gap in time to take the win? Was it going fast enough by the end? Or more importantly, was it POSSIBLE for the Ford to make up the gap to take the win based on the jump start of the R8?

Without the actual speed of the cars as they cross the line, it is a bit hard to know...

But to add a few more points to the discussion, consider the photo finish below of the other review that has been brought up in this thread. I'm going to use this result as an example (despite the large amount of wheelspin off the line from the F6 in this particular review) as it shows pretty much the speed capable of both cars down the 1/4 mile:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x242/ThundaBird/f6vsr8.jpg

Here we see the F6 crosses the line 4.2 km/h faster than the R8. This equates to 1.16 meters per second, so the F6 at that point is making up 1.16metres every second on the R8 at the fastest point of the race.

According to your first post, you suggested that the advantage to the R8 off the line was 2.4 milliseconds, equivolent to 1.1 car lengths. The VE R8 is 4943mm long so a 1.1 car length advantage equates to an advantage of 4.9873 metres.

You suggested that the wheel spin of the R8 washed off half of the advantage that the R8 had gained by jumping the start.

This means according to what you are suggesting, the R8 still has an unfair advantage of 2.49365 metres that the F6 has to make up.

If the F6, at its FASTEST point of the race (i.e. when it is crossing the line) is only able to make up 1.16 metres per second (according to the picture and calculations above), then there is little chance that it is going to make up 2.49356 metres when it is already behind the R8 in terms of speed and momentum.

So what i am trying to get at is, YES, the R8 crossed the line first, BUT the jump off the line gave it a winning advantage that was greater than you think and greater than is being suggested in this thread.

On the street, this all means very little. If you lose, you lose, but then street races also quite frequently go for longer than 400m which is where the F6 would come into its own.

Interestingly, the R8 probably would have gotten a nice Cherry on the Christmas Tree lights at the drags as it broke out and was kicked out of the competition for losing that round...

Just food for thought, and once again without knowing the speeds of the cars as they cross the line this is all really just sh!ts and giggles.

Good chat tho,

Yeah that is a very good post. Illustrates some good points there. Make sure you acknowledge that the Drive video was a manual vs. an auto and the F6 was stalled up. The manual's ratios are even worse when it comes to drag racing requiring 4th alot earlier (3.7 diff ratio) therefore, that will explain some of the mph difference ... It would be closer with the auto as per recent tests (even those without my maths).

I cant really say that the wheelspin accounts for x number of seconds or not. Perhaps it is quicker in that first section and it would naturally pull away more and thus it is worth more (I dont know). But I can say that the F6 was at the R8 rear door having been a car length behind from the jump by the pit wall at which point the R8 pulled away.

What you also have to realise is the mph advantage at the 400m line is temporary because of the gear shift (pre the line for R8 and as the F6 is crossing the line). This months MOTOR will demonstrate that the HSV will claw back any mph advantages after 400m. Have a close look. It all makes "magical" sense.

I am sure you can roughly calculate their speed when they cross the line if you have some long reference measurements and time to play around. But, I will leave that to someone else ...

Alex

[FireArc]

Fair enough, enjoyed the chat Alex, cheers for posting,

Cheers

[vlcalais8]

Jeez.. you guys are hard. it would have taken ages to do all that compter stuff...

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg12/pageyoz/Nerd.jpg?t=1223726716

LOL :goodjob:

[Mr. Whippy]

Hi Mr. Whippy,

That is fair enough; you are entitled to your opinion. But, can you please give something constructive. I believe everything I said had some scientific basis and was very accurate. However, everything else from the Ford fans seemed to be random excuses from then on. Please contribute something substantial. Are there any other scientific conclusions that we can come up with using the video data? Please demonstrate ...

Thanks,

Alex

Hi Alex, sry for the slow reply, been away. I admire the work you have put into this but I think the bias lets you down. Personally I think think you want to prove that the R8 won this race, but I dont think you have.

If you going to claim that your calculations based on spliced footage of the race prove that 1. it was a one take race and 2. the HSV won it, then post your calculations and methodology. All I see are references to your calculations, and posts of a frame of the HSV seemingly in front close to the finish line as proof that it won. It is not. Do you have any later frames?

For the record I have ordered a F6, however I am not a Ford fanboy. I would be more than happy to buy a HSV if it was the right package (maybe with the VF?).

We can talk about mag reviews till the cows come home. The latest wheels mag have the R8 as faster, even though back in July they said the F6 was faster. I'd say from a punters perspective the common consensus is the F6 is on average a few tenths per seconds faster than a R8. Who gives a shit. Probably just the Holden fanboys who are used to the HSV's being faster than anything Ford has (ie. their slowarse stock V8s).

Maybe its a better idea to celebrate the fact that fast four door sedans are still being built in this country, regardless if its Holden or Ford.

Best,
Whip

[Alex(AUS)]

Hi Alex, sry for the slow reply, been away. I admire the work you have put into this but I think the bias lets you down. Personally I think think you want to prove that the R8 won this race, but I dont think you have.

If you going to claim that your calculations based on spliced footage of the race prove that 1. it was a one take race and 2. the HSV won it, then post your calculations and methodology. All I see are references to your calculations, and posts of a frame of the HSV seemingly in front close to the finish line as proof that it won. It is not. Do you have any later frames?

For the record I have ordered a F6, however I am not a Ford fanboy. I would be more than happy to buy a HSV if it was the right package (maybe with the VF?).

We can talk about mag reviews till the cows come home. The latest wheels mag have the R8 as faster, even though back in July they said the F6 was faster. I'd say from a punters perspective the common consensus is the F6 is on average a few tenths per seconds faster than a R8. Who gives a shit. Probably just the Holden fanboys who are used to the HSV's being faster than anything Ford has (ie. their slowarse stock V8s).

Maybe its a better idea to celebrate the fact that fast four door sedans are still being built in this country, regardless if its Holden or Ford.

Best,
Whip

Thanks for that Whippy.

Obviously, if you were here to contribute you would have seen the frames you requested posted a long time ago. There is no methodology as such. I analysed the video footage frame by frame (approx 0.04 of one second) to see the jump that the R8 got. The rest was visual from the key frames that I posted and explanations I gave. So everything you requested has already been posted. The mph differential was once again calculated using the time it took the F6 to overcome 1 car length (or 5meters / part thereof) both from visual reference and the duration in the video before the line. But I also already said that. The picture at the end is self explanatory and I am sure makes plenty of sense. There is no more "methodology" or "calculation" than that (as per the first post).

If you took the time to look at what I posted you wouldnt be asking. Unfortunately, you are not here to understand what I said/showed or the methodology / calculations etc etc ... just to claim I am wrong without any evidence. There is not a single Ford fan post here that has taken any initiative to do anything appart from saying it is "bullshit". Whether that says I am right and there isnt anything else to say or that they couldnt be bothered isnt clear. Which is fair enough ... perhaps this isnt what they want to read or consider or they dont care about such a small difference ... so why did they post that it was "bullshit"? I think the answer is clear ...

It was strange that recent tests were virtually identical (even after my initial post). And, I am sure that the next test in our series will go the other way ... they really are that close.

So, I think you are following the same light as the Ford fan boys by asking plenty of questions (that have already been answered) making plenty of claims (that have been explained) and generally calling what I did as "bullshit" without any substance behind it ... Perhaps, I am not the biased one. It is genuinely hard to "bend" what I showed. I think if you actually read it, it makes perfect sense.

The result has no real significance one way or the other (it was very very close). I just posted to give some more value to what was a lacking comparison and to clear up some wildly different understanding of how the drag went from some Ford fans. It was really really amazing what they saw through blue colored glasses before we had a close look at it and that is how the thread started.

It is ok ... dont worry about it and dont stress.

Congratulations on the purchase. Enjoy the F6; it is a great car.

Alex

[pagey]

Oh for fkuc sake close this shit... how embarrasing. :limpy::closed:

[Freaky]

Forget the frame by frame analysis and calculations crap.

From a simple mans point of view.

1. HSV jumps the line and gets a good lead.
2. F6 puts the power down and catches up
3. Presenters state the F6 just wins by crossing line first.

there, done. :sux:

[CarlFST60L]

Forget the frame by frame analysis and calculations crap.

From a Ford mans point of view.

1. HSV jumps the line and gets a good lead.
2. F6 puts the power down and catches up
3. Presenters state the F6 just wins by crossing line first.

there, done. :sux:

Fixed :lol:

[RobboXR6T]

Just another attempt to try to sleep at night because the F6 is regarded as the quicker car. Who gives a rats arse. I've read lots of Alex(One-Eyed) stuff and while accusing Ford boys of getting wound up, it seems that he is the one pushing the Generals barrow with threads like this. Let it go man. Life's too short.

My brothers VE R8 is a beast. I got my BF GT at about the same time as he got the R8. He loves my GT and reckons it flies. I think his R8 would absolutely kick it but who really cares.

I'd own an F6 or an R8 in a blink if I could because they both rock!!

BTW and off topic ... The VE SS ute would have to be the best looking ute made to date. It looks tough and is balanced. Much better than the Maloo IMHO.

[Alex(AUS)]

Forget the frame by frame analysis and calculations crap.

From a simple mans point of view.

1. HSV jumps the line and gets a good lead.
2. F6 puts the power down and catches up
3. Presenters state the F6 just wins by crossing line first.

there, done. :sux:

You guys are right. I am obviously the biased one here ...

Best you guys get on the phone to the magasines then cos they seem to be my buddies. I dont need the TG review to help me sleep at night ... there is MOTOR and WHEELS too! LOL

Alex

[RobboXR6T]

Cheers for that Alex(One-Eyed). Now we can all get some sleep. :)

Lighten up mate. Seriously.

[Alex(AUS)]

Cheers for that Alex(One-Eyed). Now we can all get some sleep. :)

Lighten up mate. Seriously.

I am relaxed ... dont worry. It is all in good humor. It certainly has kept you guys reading and posting in this thread for 12 pages! LOL. I am getting a sense you dont like the result LOL ROFL!!! ...

I am as relaxed as relaxed gets. You would be surprised as to how easy and enjoyable posting in this thread has been (I just hope I haven't offended anyone).

Alex

[BLACK 346]

I am relaxed ... dont worry. It is all in good humor. It certainly has kept you guys reading and posting in this thread for 12 pages! LOL. I am getting a sense you dont like the result LOL ROFL!!! ...

I am as relaxed as relaxed gets. You would be surprised as to how easy and enjoyable posting in this thread has been (I just hope I haven't offended anyone).

Alex

Say relaxed again mate, we get the picture lol. The above post
gives me pictures of you rocking back and forward in front of
the computer, mumbling I am relaxed, stay calm, I am relaxed :)

[Mr. Whippy]

There is no methodology as such

Lol I think I can stop there. I have read this entire thread, and I see nothing that proves your assertions and as I mentioned, you constantly refer to that one frame as they approach the finish line and cant provide any subsequent frames.



The rest was visual from the key frames that I posted and explanations I gave.


The mph differential was once again calculated using the time it took the F6 to overcome 1 car length (or 5meters / part thereof) both from visual reference and the duration in the video before the line.

visual = completely subjective


There is no more "methodology" or "calculation" than that (as per the first post).

The only methodology behind your posts is trying to shit any Ford fan that frequents this site by claiming the R8 won a race that most people would consider a complete crock.


you are not here to understand what I said/showed or the methodology / calculations etc etc ... just to claim I am wrong without any evidence

No, I merely asked you to support what your claiming. I read all of your posts. Simply saying you've done a few sums on a calculator, and posted a shot of the R8 approaching the finish line slightly ahead doesnt prove 1. that it was a one take race or 2. the R8 won it. Claiming that people not putting forward evidence to counter what you've put forward doesnt validate your evidence.



It is ok ... dont worry about it and dont stress.

I'm remarkably relaxed. Judging by your posts you seem to enjoy needling Ford fans so good luck to you.


Forget the frame by frame analysis and calculations crap.

From a simple mans point of view.

1. HSV jumps the line and gets a good lead.
2. F6 puts the power down and catches up
3. Presenters state the F6 just wins by crossing line first.

there, done. :sux:

Pretty much what 99% of people watching the show wouldve thought and instantly forgotten about.

[SV346]

haha this has been a pretty good read, but either way the general wins because its not a ford :p

[deverson1]

haha this has been a pretty good read, but either way the general wins because its not a ford :p

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl:
So true.

Iam amazed at the amount of ford supporters there are here.
I wonder how one sided the ford forums are to this questionable race.
Just a thought :hide:

[Ghosn]

The only 'fact' I have been able to gather from this worthless thread so far is that Alex needs to get laid, can we close it already? Pleeeeease?

[Alex(AUS)]

Lol I think I can stop there. I have read this entire thread, and I see nothing that proves your assertions and as I mentioned, you constantly refer to that one frame as they approach the finish line and cant provide any subsequent frames.





visual = completely subjective



The only methodology behind your posts is trying to shit any Ford fan that frequents this site by claiming the R8 won a race that most people would consider a complete crock.



No, I merely asked you to support what your claiming. I read all of your posts. Simply saying you've done a few sums on a calculator, and posted a shot of the R8 approaching the finish line slightly ahead doesnt prove 1. that it was a one take race or 2. the R8 won it. Claiming that people not putting forward evidence to counter what you've put forward doesnt validate your evidence.



I'm remarkably relaxed. Judging by your posts you seem to enjoy needling Ford fans so good luck to you.



Pretty much what 99% of people watching the show wouldve thought and instantly forgotten about.

So yet another thread of plenty of crap but nothing to show to the contrary ... There was nothing subjective about what I said it was clearly illustrated for everyone ... which frame do you see different to what I did? ... if you think there was one(or more) show how? You keep claiming that the R8 was not infront at the end ... show how that is as a start ... dont post another thread claiming my stuff is "wrong"/"bullshit" etc ... we got it the first time many pages ago. Show how that is ... add some value here. Dont ask me for a methodology/calculations etc ... show us yours. I have already posted everything I had to say page 1, post 1. There is yet to be anything to the contrary (regardless of methodologies or what not).

I wonder how many more pages we will have of Ford fan "bullshit" quotes and little else ...

Alex

[vxclubsport569]

Mods please close this... yet another pissing contest

Just the usual suspects on here who have way too much time on their hands, out to flame anyone who doesn't believe their theory. I can't put it in a more polite way

I notice some people when I have a quick look to see how much further this can go are always on this thread.. get a life and use the forum for what it is designed for

:bs:

:lock:

[seedyrom]

I wonder how one sided the ford forums are to this questionable race.
Just a thought :hide:
Why not do some research before mouthing off?
Seriously - I'm ashamed to be a "Holden Man" with the amount of whining going on here

The ford forums are positively silent on the matter.
Click - But you'll need to go the the very bottom of page 14 of 15 pages before the second episode is mentioned (http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11235944)

NO ONE CARES. (Did you note the fullstop?)


Repeat, they can't give a crap.

The only remark of repeat worthy was " The R8 and F6 tire warming was a bit weak, and the lack of a conclusion after that segment was a little underwhelming, but the threesome are finding their feet."


There we go.

So in the little dick sakes, I say Holden supporters (in this thread atleast) have got it in the bag.

[deverson1]

Why not do some research before mouthing off?
Seriously - I'm ashamed to be a "Holden Man" with the amount of whining going on here

The ford forums are positively silent on the matter.
Click - But you'll need to go the the very bottom of page 14 of 15 pages before the second episode is mentioned (http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11235944)

NO ONE CARES. (Did you note the fullstop?)


Repeat, they can't give a crap.

The only remark of repeat worthy was " The R8 and F6 tire warming was a bit weak, and the lack of a conclusion after that segment was a little underwhelming, but the threesome are finding their feet."


There we go.

So in the little dick sakes, I say Holden supporters (in this thread atleast) have got it in the bag.

WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That worked lol

Why not do some research before mouthing off?

I said I wonder not that is fact get a life.....

[seedyrom]

Nice English! :goodjob:

:confused:

[deverson1]

Nice English! :goodjob:

:confused:

LOL I agree.
Maybe I should take this seriously.
I am just killing time stirring the pot could not help my self.

[Freaky]

Fixed :lol:

How am I a Ford fanboy ? I have only lease leased one ford in my life a BF F6.

Yet I have owned 2 VL's, a VR, and 2 VY's.

[CarlFST60L]

How am I a Ford fanboy ? I have only lease leased one ford in my life a BF F6.

Yet I have owned 2 VL's, a VR, and 2 VY's.

Come on, its all a bit of fun.

After years of reading your posts, I thought you would get a laugh out of it ;)

[Alex(AUS)]

One of the Ford guys kept requesting final speed measurements (I cant remember who). So I whipped something up. Basically the F6 is traveling at 168.22km/h (as an average in the last 5 meters of acceleration) before the line. So I would assume a touch quicker at the line. Which is magically in line with what most reviews are seeing. It is like this maths analysis stuff is meant to work out or something :D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2953523398_6ae0d473b2_o.jpg

Now, just for Whippy who will no doubt ask for methodologies but provide little else info to this thread.

- I measured the F6 wheel from the final camera in pixels as far from the line as possible where the camera was square ... 21px
- I measured the distance to the line from the F6 tyre at that point ... 244px
- I measured the time it took to cover that distance ... 0.12seconds

Then applied the following maths;

0.12s = 3.33e5H
244/21*19 = 220.7619inches = 0.0056km
Therefore F6 is traveling at 0.0056/3.33e5 = 168.22km/h

For those concerned about my time ... it only took 8 minutes to do (including reading the G&D VE Drag thread which is admittedly quite short).

I had another quick look at the "at the line" photo and photos after the line ... there is no doubt that the HSV is in front both before and after the line no matter how you look at it.

Alex

[RobboXR6T]

Good. HSV wins. Yippee.

[Lofty]

The clubby had to come first after all its red. who needs maths

[Freaky]

Come on, its all a bit of fun.

After years of reading your posts, I thought you would get a laugh out of it ;)

its cool. i dont take it seriously :cheers:

I did have a chuckle

[flappist]

One of the Ford guys kept requesting final speed measurements (I cant remember who). So I whipped something up. Basically the F6 is traveling at 168.22km/h (as an average in the last 5 meters of acceleration) before the line. So I would assume a touch quicker at the line. Which is magically in line with what most reviews are seeing. It is like this maths analysis stuff is meant to work out or something :D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2953523398_6ae0d473b2_o.jpg

Now, just for Whippy who will no doubt ask for methodologies but provide little else info to this thread.

- I measured the F6 wheel from the final camera in pixels as far from the line as possible where the camera was square ... 21px
- I measured the distance to the line from the F6 tyre at that point ... 244px
- I measured the time it took to cover that distance ... 0.12seconds

Then applied the following maths;

0.12s = 3.33e5H
244/21*19 = 220.7619inches = 0.0056km
Therefore F6 is traveling at 0.0056/3.33e5 = 168.22km/h

For those concerned about my time ... it only took 8 minutes to do (including reading the G&D VE Drag thread which is admittedly quite short).

I had another quick look at the "at the line" photo and photos after the line ... there is no doubt that the HSV is in front both before and after the line no matter how you look at it.

Alex

Some children are frightened of dogs, everytime they see one they cry, complain and chuck little tanties. This is often because a big dog gave them a fright and embarrassed them in public and they are afraid it will happen again.
They tend to tell everyone they are not scared of dogs though although they deride dogs whenever the opportunity presents itself

Some children are frightened of water, every time they see it they cry, complain and chuck little tanties. This if often because water gave them a fright and embarrassad them in public and they are afraid it will happen again. They tend to tell everyone they are not scared of water but don't go anywhere near it.

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who appears to be frightened of F6s.
One didn't give you a fright and embarrass you in public on a "private road" or a drag strip did it? Or were you not even game to try?

Silly question really. You are going to deny it but your rants and paranoia really do give you away don't they...........

[Alex(AUS)]

Some children are frightened of dogs, everytime they see one they cry, complain and chuck little tanties. This is often because a big dog gave them a fright and embarrassed them in public and they are afraid it will happen again.
They tend to tell everyone they are not scared of dogs though although they deride dogs whenever the opportunity presents itself

Some children are frightened of water, every time they see it they cry, complain and chuck little tanties. This if often because water gave them a fright and embarrassad them in public and they are afraid it will happen again. They tend to tell everyone they are not scared of water but don't go anywhere near it.

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone who appears to be frightened of F6s.
One didn't give you a fright and embarrass you in public on a "private road" or a drag strip did it? Or were you not even game to try?

Silly question really. You are going to deny it but your rants and paranoia really do give you away don't they...........

HEHE ... I am scared :o

In all seriousness, I have not raced one (or the one/s before). But I have driven them all (BA-BF) up to FG ... very quick. I am looking forward to a drive of the FG soon. I am sure it is all that it is cracked up to be.

I would not race on the road ...

Alex

[PASHEN]

Shit - reading this thread was painful.

Who gives a fuk about a few tenths either way?

Drive both cars - I'm tipping most posts here are from people who have not even driven these cars! Get behind the wheel of both, and try to forget you have any brand bias and loyalty. The car that gets your heart pumping and excites you most is the one for you.

This thread has passed its use by date

[RobboXR6T]

I just love Lofty's avatar. Game over.

[FireArc]

Which is magically in line with what most reviews are seeing.
Alex

Good post Alex, the only part i disagree with is this sentence i have quoted above.

The F6 is hitting 180km/h by the time it crosses the line in most reviews (example). I can't see how there is a 12km/h discrepancy between your assumption of the end speed and the officially recorded speed shown below, even if there is 5 metres to go (I can't see the F6 picking up 12 km/h in 5 metres?)

If you are correct, this is another reason for this whole test being bogus as this would mean the R8 is also fairly off the pace.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x242/ThundaBird/f6vsr8.jpg

[Rollin]

This thread makes my brain hurt :( (though some would say that isn't hard :P)

I got linked here by a Holden fanatic friend who was having a chuckle at the way this thread is going, and I have to say I felt the same way - there is no way in hell that you can take any kind of measurement from video footage that isn't taken from start to finish by the one camera.

If you watch the footage there are approximately 11tybillion different camera angles. I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that TGAU do not actually posess 11tybillion cameras.

Given the lack of 11tybillion available cameras, I'm going to say that they would have had to film the start of a race, move the cameras, film the middle bit, move the cameras, then film the last bit. Unless of course the camera men can run an easy 7 second quarter (allowing a second or so to set the camera up, record the footage then run on ahead of the cars again :jester:

TGAU is ENTERTAINMENT. It is NOT a scientific analysis of the relative merits (or lack therof) of each car. To try and gain some kind of factual evidence from this show is laughable.

In short:

Buy the car you want. If it isn't fast enough, the aftermarket availability of gofast goodies for either model is mind blowing - start shopping!!!

BRB W427 on top gear :)

[pagey]

Actually Rollin.. your 11tybillion camera argument is slightly more plausibil than Alex's detailed video analysis :goodjob: