American car companies - will they survive?

[VW Golf R32]

The (former) big 3 have had a difficult time these last three years due to the sudden and significant increase in the price of crude oil. Now to rub salt into the wound, the US economy has gone sour so new car buyers are disappearing rapidly. The last thing GM. Ford or Chrysler needed was the credit crunch as they all desperately need cash to see them through until new, more economical models can be released. The problem is that the financial institutions are in strife and are no longer giving cheap or easy credit. None of the banks would be willing to give billions of dollars to any industry which has such a tenuous grip on survival. Hence why the US government last month approved the $US25 billion bailout package.

The current share prices of these companies indicates their situations are perilous:

http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GM
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=F

Desperate times indeed! :bawl:

[Jac001]

The $25B was in low interest loans not a bail out. (and yes that is significantly different).

I doubt that the US government will allow GM to go bankrupt. I expect that more money in form of more loans or a bail out will happen or GM may be forced to devide and sell off assests.

Maybe Holden could become part of the Tata Motors group LOL :)

[theVman]

Maybe Holden could become part of the Tata Motors group LOL :)

He he yeah I will be lining up to buy the new Tata VE fitted with wooden cart wheels. That will be tops.

Seriously though - it will be interesting to see what happens. Sure the market needed some readjustment but has gone to the worst extreme. The next few weeks will tell if this is short term or more long term. The later will significantly impact on the likes of GM however they always seem to pull through.

[Jac001]

He he yeah I will be lining up to buy the new Tata VE fitted with wooden cart wheels. That will be tops.

Seriously though - it will be interesting to see what happens. Sure the market needed some readjustment but has gone to the worst extreme. The next few weeks will tell if this is short term or more long term. The later will significantly impact on the likes of GM however they always seem to pull through.

hehe well Tata have recently bought jag and range reover so holden will be in good company. :)

The big fear for GM wish such a low share price is that someone comes in and buys them out, and splits up the assets and sells them off.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/11/generalmotors-ford

' GM shares crashed 31% on Thursday to close at $4.76, their lowest in almost 60 years. Ford's stock fell 21% the same day.

The big three carmakers in the US, including Chrysler, have been losing market share for years, but a collapse of one would shatter American self-confidence.

GM, worth $52.4bn (£30bn) at its peak in 2000, has dropped below $2.7bn in market value - less than it was worth at the beginning of the Great Depression. Ford is valued at about $4.7bn.'

[Marco]

Chrysler is owned by one of those venture capital funds, isn't it? Cerebus I think it was? Surely they'd be feeling the pinch if liquidity has dried up.

[flyingdoc]

It'll just end up a bit mess with China & India fighting over the bones.

[clubbie]

Chrysler is owned by one of those venture capital funds, isn't it? Cerebus I think it was? Surely they'd be feeling the pinch if liquidity has dried up.

Venture capital is usually not raised by credit through banks as per the "normal" method...it is usually raised through rich individuals/companies/ whom want to see a better return than the markets.

Dunno whats worse??

[Marco]

Yaeh, I said venture capital but what I actually meant was private equity (but your point stands either way). Owning a car company isn't going to give much of a return on investment at the moment, but then, what is?

[offshore]

Id say where more likely to see a merger happening soon with GM and Chrysler and possibly others happening as well.

[payaya]

Its horrible isnt it? GM lost 12 billion last quarter, and they DO NOT have much cash left to survive. Ford is not in much better shape.

They are in horrible shape but I cant see these two companies filing for bankruptcy. Surely Mr Bush would step in some way!

Shit I can comprehend in five years time Tander in a Toyota & Wincup in a VW eyeing off top in the shootout! So so wrong!


Id say where more likely to see a merger happening soon with GM and Chrysler and possibly others happening as well.

So our next cars will be either Toyota Commodores or Toyota Falcons?

[bok1]

have a read here about gm trying to merge with ford.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/business/12auto.html?ref=automobiles

phil

[Ausmartin1]

* Automotive News
&
/ gm-volt.com

GM & Chrysler trying to slap up a deal
hey - GMC ! LOL.

Plus Ford wants to sell 20% of Mazda - that will leave them with 10%.

But Worse still will GMH survive .......
Go Auto reports that the Chevy Cruse - small car AKA Torona is being conmsidered - potential exports to South Africa & Thailand - BUT HERE IS THE KILLER
"has many hurdles to clear before it is seriously presented to GM regional headquarters in Shanghai"

WTF ?? since when does Chinese HD in Shanghai decide WHAT AUSTRALIA BUILDS ?

The Sky is FALLING the Sky is FALLING ! -(Maybe it really is ...Between the self interested Yanks and Chinese who want to build / profit in China)
DO YOU THINK GMH & WE ARE SCREWED ?

Maybe we should now call Australia the PRAU (Peoples Republic of Australia) and the USA can be called the PRA (Peoples Republic of America)

Thanks Mr Bush help run America propererly - Self interest of big bussiness / other countrys & Greed. Well done - we all pay now.....

[Marco]

The Chevy Cruze isn't the Torana, it's the next Viva.

[Jac001]

So our next cars will be either Toyota Commodores ?

You do relaise that from the VN to VS that toyota owned half of the Holdens (and the other half was owned by GM)?
:)

[Dacious]

GM AsiaPacific HQ is in Shanghai, because compared to their annual sales we are a pimple on the GM buttock. The Chevrolet Cruze is in fact a replacement/augment to the Cobalt, an old car based on the pre-TS Opel Astra like the Lacetti/Viva.

Holden is unlikely to build that, we will instead get it from Daewoo as the next Viva or possibly as a Chevrolet Cruze, depending on who you believe. GM is determined that Chev will be a global value brand and sooner or later we may see them sold here.

[chevypower]

Ford just need another Henry Ford to lead, he made the company succeed in the great depression.

[possum22]

Ford just need another Henry Ford to lead, he made the company succeed in the great depression.

"You can have in any color as long it is Black!"
I couldn't resist!

[RobboXR6T]

Black paint dried the quickest. It kept the assembly line moving fast.

[whitels1ss]

Another article about GM merge with Ford.
Perhaps we could see a Ford Commodore race a Holden Falcon GT at Bathurst in the next few years.:rofl:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/business/12auto.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1223816514-ZKOsISVQ8EUvcJtRdAdy5w

[VW Golf R32]

Are automakers also too big to fail? (http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1103/p01s02-usec.html)

[VW Golf R32]

US Big 3 never to be the same again (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081111/OPINION03/811110357)

[Road Warrior]

Another article about GM merge with Ford.
Perhaps we could see a Ford Commodore race a Holden Falcon GT at Bathurst in the next few years.:rofl:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/business/12auto.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1223816514-ZKOsISVQ8EUvcJtRdAdy5w

Co-developing a large RWD platform to accept each manufacturer's own engines would be a good start.

[VW Golf R32]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/13/news/companies/gm_bankruptcy/?postversion=2008111305

[keepleft]

GM tells it like it is
From plants to parks. From dealerships to driveways. From gas stations to grocery stores. What happens in the automotive industry affects each and every one of us. In fact, the collapse of the U.S.-based auto industry wouldn't just impact the nearly 355,000 Americans directly employed by the Big Three. One out of every 10 people in America is employed in a service that is related to the U.S. auto industry. If a plant closes, so does its suppliers, the local stores, the hot dog vendors, and the local restaurants. Continues at link.

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

[Tre-Cool]

i reakon Gm need to fook off all their different brands in America and at the very least stop building cars, trucks that are the same but with different badges on them.

and then minimize the line up of all vehicles. They give their customer's TOO MUCH CHOICE.

All Gm need to Have is 3 global small cars, 3 mid size, 3 large size, 3 light trucks, 3x medium, 3 large trucks within the truck range you include the likes of suv's. etc.

Then have the likes of Corvette as a seperate entity that only build the corvettes, make it a more exotic brand.

Americans have had Too much of a good thing with so many different vehicles i reakon.

Pontiac, Cadillac etc etc can all be shut down. they only need Chevrolet & corvette brands.

[Road Warrior]

They certainly need to rationalise their products...having all the products they have means more R&D, more assembly plants, more workers, higher legacy costs etc.

But Christ, they have a stake in too many offshore operations too, look how many plants they have:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_factories

[the big fist]

If that's the case would they be likely to give holden the flick ?
hmmm....

[tanka5.7]

im sure there is a country to invade to make things right :)

[chevypower]

i reakon Gm need to fook off all their different brands in America and at the very least stop building cars, trucks that are the same but with different badges on them.

and then minimize the line up of all vehicles. They give their customer's TOO MUCH CHOICE.

All Gm need to Have is 3 global small cars, 3 mid size, 3 large size, 3 light trucks, 3x medium, 3 large trucks within the truck range you include the likes of suv's. etc.

Then have the likes of Corvette as a seperate entity that only build the corvettes, make it a more exotic brand.

Americans have had Too much of a good thing with so many different vehicles i reakon.

Pontiac, Cadillac etc etc can all be shut down. they only need Chevrolet & corvette brands.

If I had it my way, i would have a global line up of:

Chevrolet: - Corsa, Astra, Volt, RWD 3-series size car, Commodore, Statesman, Camaro, Corvette, Traverse, Tahoe, Colorado, Silverado, Express

Cadillac: RWD 3- series sized car, CTS, Caprice/STS, some retro coupe and convertible on Zeta, but reminiscent of the '57 Cadillac 62 (as opposed to just making a luxury Camaro), and a Cadillac based on Volt and Traverse

Hummer: H2, H3, HX

All other GM brands can go. Saab can be sold.

[VW Golf R32]

Henry Paulson kills automakers to save Wall Street banks? (http://ecommerce-journal.com/articles/11396_henry_paulson_are_we_going)

[Oldmate83]

im sure there is a country to invade to make things right :)

yeah they could take over this country... wait, they already have.

[VW Golf R32]

8 reasons why the US car makers should be allowed to fail? (http://www.rgemonitor.com/us-monitor/254527/eight_basic_economic_arguments_against_a_bailout_o f_the_auto_industry)

[Jac001]

8 reasons why the US car makers should be allowed to fail? (http://www.rgemonitor.com/us-monitor/254527/eight_basic_economic_arguments_against_a_bailout_o f_the_auto_industry)


Its interesting that everyone seems to support the bail out given to the banks/wall st etc for their own failure, yet seem against lending money to the auto makers for the very same thing...

[Tre-Cool]

Holden better stock up on engines and transmissions...

All though you'd think the GM power train plants would be pretty save.

[Ausmartin1]

Doubt the power train division would be safe ?
They depend on deliveries to GM' American factories - no deliveries no power train division.

The only saving grace would be if the worst happened other people would pick up the pieces to service the aftermarket crowd as there would still be a decent spares demand - as long as oil dosen't go balistic in the near term - which is unlikely.

[Streeter]

This is something funny the editor of Car & Driver magazine wrote.:)

"Ahh GM you gave us so many great motoring memories from the Chevette Scooter to the X car, and not forgetting the Corvette parked down the street with the paint runs, but alas, sadly you are no more and news of your death hasn't been exaggerrated. You will be missed...most likely by the U.A.W. (United Auto Workers' Union)."

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/Olds98Regency74Ad.jpg

GM 1908-2008 R.I.P. (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/ChevroletChevette1976.jpg

[Jac001]

Holden better stock up on engines and transmissions...

All though you'd think the GM power train plants would be pretty save.

If or when GM is decleared bankrupt all its assests will be sold off, hence these powertraion plants may end up being sold off, along with all its brands. Alot will depend on who, buys what.

[mac06]

I think there are 156 billion reasons why the US government won't allow the US auto industry to collapse. The repurcussions for the US as a whole would be devastating. The big three are cutting costs, coming up with different vehicles, etc. IMO the senate just has to ensure the funds are spent wisely, which is why they are giving GM, Ford and Chrysler the chance to further present their case for more money early in December.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=827&docid=50449

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/newspublisher/support_file/11-18-2008/39/support.pdf

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

[VW Golf R32]

This week is d-day for the no-longer-so-big 3.

[VW Golf R32]

When will it end?

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081203/OPINION03/812030391

[Marco]

GM has told Congress that it plans to "sell, eliminate, or consolidate the Saturn, Saab, Hummer and Pontiac brands".

I couldn't care less about the other three but I'm horrified at the prospect of Pontiac getting the chop. What now for the G8? Could it be sold as a Chev?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/business/03auto.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

[Mikey]

This seems to be the latest update.

I just like everone else (for Holden's sake) feared the dumping of the Pontiac brand but in this article I do like the line "Pontiac would be a niche brand." I hope it is true. This should mean that the brand should go back to its roots and concentrate on being GM's performance arm only.

This is just perfect for Holden as they could never be nor do they need to be a mass producer in this market. Mass production for Holden would only fill a niche market in the US anyway.

Now GM needs to restore some confidence back into the Pontiac name and get busy selling the G8



RESCUE PITCH
GM: Shrink brands, pay, jobs, dealers
BY KATIE MERX • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • December 3, 2008

General Motors Corp. could run short of the cash it needs to operate this month if Congress doesn't approve $4 billion in loans, the automaker said Tuesday in a 30-page report requesting federal aid.


"The first $4 billion is crucial," President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said on a conference call. "Absent support, we can't continue to operate."

Liquidity
GM is asking the federal government for a $12-billion loan and a $6-billion line of credit to ensure adequate operating cash through 2009.

GM's plan proposes the elimination or significant shrinking of four of its eight brands; cuts in executive pay; drastic reductions in headcount and dealerships; the intent to seek cuts in labor costs, and plans to renegotiate debt.

GM wants $4 billion immediately to survive the month.

Assuming U.S. vehicle sales of 12 million next year, GM would then plan to draw $4 billion to ensure adequate liquidity balances through January and another $2 billion in the "February-March" time frame.

If sales drop to 10.5 million next year, the automaker said it would need to draw down the full $12-billion loan it has requested and tap $3 billion of the credit line.

Shared sacrifice
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner and the company's board members will take $1 salaries in 2009. Wagoner made $2.2 million in 2007. Other cuts: Henderson 30%; executive vice presidents and the vice chairman 20%; no executive bonuses through 2009.

Reduced workforce
GM's current U.S. salaried and hourly headcount is about 96,000. By 2012, the automaker expects to have between 65,000 and 75,000 people.

Henderson said GM is working with the UAW to be fully competitive with Toyota on labor by 2012.

GM will accomplish that in part, he said, by increasing the percentage of workers with lesser pay and benefits.

UAW leaders are to hear proposed concessions today.

Slashed brands
GM said it will focus on so-called core brands of Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC. Hummer is for sale, Saab will be, and Pontiac would be a niche brand. Saturn may be sold or closed.

Henderson said GM will work with creditors to cut debt to $30 billion from $65.6 billion but will honor warranties and debts to suppliers. The company proposes to begin paying back its government debt no later than 2012.

Analyst reaction
"I believe they're going to get the money, and they have to," said Erich Merkle, a forecaster at Crowe Horwath in Grand Rapids. "But in my mind this plan doesn't have teeth. I'm concerned it won't be enough."

[Desertws6]

With all of this going on, and discussion of closing brands. I certainly seems very strange to me to keep Buick. They only build 2 cars and 1 SUV, and both the cars look the same :confused:

http://www.buick.com/ngis/buick/

At least Pontiac has 8 different vehicles.

http://www.pontiac.com/view-vehicles/

Cheers,
Steve

[V-Car]

It certainly seems very strange to me to keep Buick. They only build 2 cars and 1 SUV, and both the cars look the same :confused:
Cheers,
Steve

While that may be true in the US, its a very different story in China where Buick is very iconic, and the main GM Shanghai brand with many more and different 'Buicks' built and sold there than in the US.

http://www.buick.com.cn/

Even though the Park Avenue nameplate is long gone from your shores, you probably know it lives on in China in the form of a rebadged Holden Caprice.

http://www.buick.com.cn/parkavenue/index.aspx

[John Wilson]

GM Ford and Chrysler aren't going anywhere....trust me on this one. They will survive. John Wilson

[VW Golf R32]

Still no signs that bailout will be approved by the US congress

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081205/AUTO01/812050395

[V-Car]

While that may be true in the US, its a very different story in China where Buick is very iconic

Hi Steve, found some more about Buick.

Why GM must stay with Buick

Rick Kranz
Automotive News
December 8, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

General Motors had no choice: It had to keep Buick.

If GM walked away from Buick in the United States, the brand's biggest market likely would collapse.

GM's bailout plan released to Congress last week makes it clear that the days are numbered for Saab and Hummer, as well as Roger Smith's fiasco, Saturn. Pontiac will survive, but GM said Pontiac eventually will shrink to a niche brand. The number of GM nameplates in the United States is expected to drop from 48 today to about 40 by 2012.

Interestingly, excluding Hummer, GM's lowest-selling North American brand is a survivor: Buick. The reason: It's all about China, where Buick is a glamorous, must-have brand. Buick is popular with China's senior government officials, as well as the rising middle class.

Last year Buick sold 331,780 vehicles in China. By contrast, the U.S. total was 185,791. Combined, that's 517,571 Buicks, which makes a solid business case. By comparison, Volvo sold 458,323 vehicles globally in 2007.

Today, Buicks are co-developed by Chinese and U.S. teams. The two teams collaborated on the LaCrosse sedan replacement, which goes on sale here in May. Expect the Chinese to have a bigger voice in future Buick projects.

If GM had killed the brand in the United States and maintained it in China, the move likely would have had a disastrous impact on Buick sales in China. The message would have been simple: To America, the birthplace of Buick, Buick is worthless. And, with GM on the ropes, the automaker can't handle another punch to the gut.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20081208/ANA03/812080325/1199

I also thought this article interesting, especially this bit.


On the other hand, Detroit's automakers, as well as some European ones, tend to look at short-term gains in order to satisfy shareholders. GM's big problems were due to planning short-term while sacrificing the farm down the road.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/00463-former-insider-auto-bailout-never-underestimate-brainpower-detroit

PS: Steve, I havent heard anything back from the BBB yet.

[Desertws6]

Thanks Ross,

I had no idea the number of Buick's sold in China. The Park Avenue model offered in China has left the shores of the US few years back.

I did find the articles very interesting reading. I do have inside information as the the extensive testing that is done inside of GM. My Dad retired from GM after 34 years of service, and his main focus there was durability testing. They tested parts 24/7/365 in both hot and cold conditions, once a failure occurred it was passed back to the engineer for analysis. Then the part was revised and the test was performed again.

I always enjoyed visiting the Lab, to watch some interesting stuff happening.

I do hope that Pontiac remains, I'm still looking forward to getting a G8 GT one of these days. It's a fine automobile that I very much enjoyed test driving. The problem is timing here in the States with the current economy.

Thanks again for posting the links.

I do hope you hear something from the BBB soon.

Cheers,
Steve :cheers:

[Jac001]

Hi Steve, found some more about Buick.

Why GM must stay with Buick

Rick Kranz
Automotive News
December 8, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

General Motors had no choice: It had to keep Buick.

If GM walked away from Buick in the United States, the brand's biggest market likely would collapse..

GM descision is talking about brand sold in AMERICA!

You will notice that nowhere in their plans do they mention any non-US brands like holden, opel, vaxhaul, Daewoo and a few chinese brands!

Buick sells a total of 3 models in the US, yes thats right 3, the LaCrosse, Encave and Lucerne...

I can't find the link but these are reskined vesions of other GM cars sold under other badges....

Hardly going to effect sales in china where Buick has an excellent reputation and is making a fair bit of money (from what i hear).

[V-Car]

I did find the articles very interesting reading. I do have inside information as the the extensive testing that is done inside of GM. My Dad retired from GM after 34 years of service, and his main focus there was durability testing.


That would have been a great job Steve, and a dream for a young bloke into cars to go there with his dad.
Did he work at the old proving ground at Mesa?
Whats happened to that property nowadays?


GM descision is talking about brand sold in AMERICA!


Did you read the article?
You even quoted the most important line.


If GM walked away from Buick in the United States, the brand's biggest market likely would collapse.

That market is China, and they arent about to let that happen anytime soon.

[Streeter]

I just like everone else (for Holden's sake) feared the dumping of the Pontiac brand but in this article I do like the line "Pontiac would be a niche brand." I hope it is true. This should mean that the brand should go back to its roots and concentrate on being GM's performance arm only.


The original plan with Pontiac was to position it to compete as a lower priced alternative to BMW, which is why the G8 is an affordable M5 equivalent. I have heard rumours that if the new Camaro takes off they might produce a Firebird verison again, which would mean more use of the Commodore platform.:)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/TransAmburnout.jpg

Smokin' Bird 6.6 litre (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

[Marco]

Yeah, if Pontiac is to seriously be the GM performance brand then it doesn't make sense for there not to be a new Firebird, or some sort of other Coupe, just as long as it doesn't simply look like a Camaro with a different grille.

All they need now is a 3 series equivalent, which would be conveniently sold here as a Torana, and we're away.

[Desertws6]

That would have been a great job Steve, and a dream for a young bloke into cars to go there with his dad.
Did he work at the old proving ground at Mesa?
Whats happened to that property nowadays?


Ross,

Dad worked at Detroit Diesel (previously GM owned), then Chevrolet/ Pontiac Canada Group (CPC for short) later renamed to GM Power-train during his career. All locations are in the Detroit Metro area, where I was born and raised. Been in the Arizona for 14+ years now. The lab was a very interesting place. Rooms for dyno testing with explosion proof walls and glass, Hot and Cold rooms for testing, multiple assorted fixtures for duty cycles, calibration lab for measurements. All very neat stuff.

When I do go back and visit, my brother takes me on a tour of Detroit Diesel (part of Daimler Co.), it's an old amazing place. Looks like a typical factory, a bit dark and dingy in some of the old parts. The building is 1 square mile under roof, approximately 28 million square feet of space. There is a dyno room inside the plant that has around 16 engines running 24/7/365 with a door that is 46cm thick and 7 meter high x 4 meters wide. The vibration on the chest is so intense it's difficult to breath.
The largest engine that I have seen there is the MTU/DDC 20v/4000 it is used for off-highway use in ships and open pit mine trucks. It has a whopping 20 cylinders in V formation with each cylinder at 4L displacement. Topped by 4 of the largest turbos that I have ever seen. Just when you think an oil change takes a lot of oil. This monster has an oil sump that takes 110 gallons (378L) and the horsepower rating is around 3,650hp at some very slow rpm. Their bread and butter line are for over the road trucks. My brother was working on a beast of a truck last summer that was headed for New Zealand. Next time you see a road train, there is a good chance my brother did some testing before it arrived there.

The Mesa Proving grounds are still there, and used for hot weather testing. Harley-Davidson has also used the Mesa proving grounds there for M/C hot testing.

Cheers,
Steve

[John Wilson]

Here's my old 2000 Buick I had a few years back. John Wilson http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/jw1954/187_8778.jpg http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/jw1954/DSC_0650.jpg http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/jw1954/DSC_0099c2.jpg

[the big fist]

Not sure if anyone here has been to China or not but I can tell you all you see over there is Buick and VW. The buicks are hilarious too, they are almost an exact copy of a c class mercedes, just smaller !

[chevypower]

I bet Buick will be totally re-invented within the next couple of years. I am guessing a Buick convertible that actually handles well, and has some power. They are on the right track with the Enclave, and the Holden-based Park Avenue for Asia. They just need to globalize these cars, and the brand. It would be nice for it to replace the Lucerne.

[V-Car]

I bet Buick will be totally re-invented within the next couple of years. I am guessing a Buick convertible that actually handles well, and has some power. They are on the right track with the Enclave, and the Holden-based Park Avenue for Asia. They just need to globalize these cars, and the brand. It would be nice for it to replace the Lucerne.

The Park Avenue was offered to Nth American Buick dealers last year, but they didnt want it.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6207320/editorial/with-friends-like-its-dealers-buick-doesnt-need-enemies/index.html

http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6207582/future-cars/2008-buick-park-avenue-and-riviera-concept/index.html

[LargeRice]

I'm sure someone more qualified in economics than i can answer this.

With bailout packages there is a risk that it may just delay the inevitable collapse. A key incentive the keep the company going is for employment. Why not use the 12 billion as a bailout package for the employee's?

It's ironic to see people fighting to keep the company alive. They paint such a massive ahorror story of the ramifications if they aren't bailed out..... so where are the people calling for the entire management to be sacked? Where is the outrage that these people made horrible decisions that have really put them in the sh1t?

The people that caused this are getting billions to mis-manage again? I don't understand why there aren't conditions with the bailout where the entire lot of them are sacked and new people brought in. :1peek:

[VW Golf R32]

The US senate did not approve the bailout package. We are entering uncharted territory for the US economy.

[CLUBRED]

The US senate did not approve the bailout package. We are entering uncharted territory for the US economy.


$14B auto bailout dies in Senate

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...TO01/812110451

Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Ken Thomas / Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers.

Majority Leader Harry Reid said he hoped President George W. Bush would tap the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund for emergency aid to the automakers. General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could be weeks from collapse. Ford Motor Co. says it does not need federal help now, but its survival is far from certain.

.............

[HazzaHSV]

The people that caused this are getting billions to mis-manage again? I don't understand why there aren't conditions with the bailout where the entire lot of them are sacked and new people brought in. :1peek:
Yep agree 100%. And so too them head honcho's of the financial institutions that mis-managed all the banks giving ridiculous sub prime loans. Why should they get their share of 700 billion dollars to fix there screw ups while they were earning millions themselves?

[VW Golf R32]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Stock-futures-slump-after-Senate/story.aspx?guid=%7BB03CCE21%2D6EA0%2D4565%2D87FA%2 D5CEA0612B740%7D

[payaya]

Yep agree 100%. And so too them head honcho's of the financial institutions that mis-managed all the banks giving ridiculous sub prime loans. Why should they get their share of 700 billion dollars to fix there screw ups while they were earning millions themselves?

But then you can say the car makers have been mis managed by not predicting small cars are the future! Wouldnt you call this a screwup too?

How about Rio Tinto rejecting the merger with BHP? Now Rio is going down hill did you see this coming? Or how about Yahoo rejecting Microsofts takeover??

It all comes down to "shit happens". A lot of issues are unexpected and you cannot see most coming!

[VW Golf R32]

It all comes down to "shit happens". A lot of issues are unexpected and you cannot see most coming!

The Big 3 were operating under an unsustainable business model. When the economy was going well, they made enough money to keep their heads above water. Now the economy is in very bad shape, they have no chance to survive without major restructuring of their business model. And the restructuring has to go beyond just the types of cars they sell.

[payaya]

Economy in bad shape is I consider "shit happens". Afterall a bigger crash than 1987 was very unexpected.

[keepleft]

Economy in bad shape is I consider "shit happens". Afterall a bigger crash than 1987 was very unexpected.

'A bigger crash than 87 unexpected'; - to some observers, yes, to others whom are not sheep - no. Can 'it' get worse? Very much so.

Personal observation, I don't like 'bails', you don't reward bad behaviour.




Purchase a hazard-warning triangle for your car to improve the ‘warning-time’ given to approaching traffic at both crash scenes and vehicle breakdowns. Store it in the boot. I suggest Hella Part No. 2901 - $70; a World/Euro standard triangle exceeding AS3790 triangle performance requirements. http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/lic_drivesafe4.pdf

[Swordie]

I'm sure someone more qualified in economics than i can answer this.

With bailout packages there is a risk that it may just delay the inevitable collapse. A key incentive the keep the company going is for employment. Why not use the 12 billion as a bailout package for the employee's?

It's ironic to see people fighting to keep the company alive. They paint such a massive ahorror story of the ramifications if they aren't bailed out..... so where are the people calling for the entire management to be sacked? Where is the outrage that these people made horrible decisions that have really put them in the sh1t?

The people that caused this are getting billions to mis-manage again? I don't understand why there aren't conditions with the bailout where the entire lot of them are sacked and new people brought in. :1peek:

In economics there are many views. There is no one answer. Below is one way of explaining things.

There’s not only the cost of employee wages for the car industry, there is the cost for other people who would lose incomes (jobs) if the automotive industry was left to die.

Roughly the U.S Automotive industry accounts for 10% of its economy. Extreme economic conditions are in play which requires extreme measures.

If the automotive industry is left die it would increase the time and depth of the recession. Stimulating the economy (via government expenditure) reduces the time and depth of the recession. Positive economic growth occurs quicker, increasing income (company profits and peoples salaries). More income increases tax revenue, reduces spending for things such as unemployment benefits and bailouts.

The U.S is wealthy nation. What’s the point of having so much money when it can be used reduce recessionary pressures and associated negative effects. The U.S is a major economy. It is important for other economies they start growing

[Ghia351]

The Big 3 were operating under an unsustainable business model. When the economy was going well, they made enough money to keep their heads above water. Now the economy is in very bad shape, they have no chance to survive without major restructuring of their business model. And the restructuring has to go beyond just the types of cars they sell.I would say that when the economy was going well the big 3 were hugely profitable, so
enough money to keep their heads above water. would be incorrect. Sure they should have run businesses as lean as say a Toyota however even Toyota's current reporting shows very big downturns (US is it's biggest profit earner) , salary cuts and dividend cuts that haven't occurred for a very long time. As to the Big 3 no-one forced the US buyers to purchase SUV's. The big 3's major mistake was not reading buyer's changing needs and if not for the oil price increases earlier this year coupled with the financial liquidity problems I'm guessing the F150 would still be the US's biggest selling vehicle.

[lowriding]

too many vested interests in the US govt are harming survival of the big 3 . Interesting how the us congress ,heavily stacked with old school american bankers , can readily hand over $700billion to bail the paper shuffle industry out ,including over $10b to Merryl Lynch alone without delay but cant find 2% of that to keep their manufacturing industry afloat :confused:
Other issues - the militant UAW ,us govt subsided japanese carmakers it is a very deep issue !

[keepleft]

If the automotive industry is left die it would increase the time and depth of the recession. Stimulating the economy (via government expenditure) reduces the time and depth of the recession. Positive economic growth occurs quicker, increasing income (company profits and peoples salaries). More income increases tax revenue, reduces spending for things such as unemployment benefits and bailouts.
Yes, but remember that 'stimulating the economy' by infusion of a printed bail will mean, - longer term exposure to higher interest rates, as the money, or sizeable portion of it, must then be repaid. It is not gifted, and much of it will be interest laden, something future generations must then contend. In this case, primarily to China and Japan whom are loaning the US 2-4 billion USD per day, who then in return receive for the waiting time US Treasury bonds. Point is, are these bonds and derivatives worthless?

Purely printed bail from a single source (Such as US Fed/Treasury directive), means the risk of spiralling hyperinflation a la Zimbabwe, unless we 'pretend' and 'ignore' otherwise. Not an 'immediate' effect, but one that can be felt down the path in years.

Its worthy to note that Japan has thrown in 'trillions' of Yen to shore things up domestically, and internationally.



The U.S is wealthy nation. What’s the point of having so much money when it can be used reduce recessionary pressures and associated negative effects. The U.S is a major economy. It is important for other economies they start growing
I agree the US is a major economy, the US State of California is by itself one of the biggest economies in the world, but it too, for that last few years, and in particular 2008, has been asking for 'urgent help' to pay its employee wages as it is simply unable to afford to do itself any longer; - without further US printed bail help. It is only one of some 30+ US States in that position of late. Each now asking for federal help.

Over the yeas the US has become a basket case of welfare dependency as third worlders hop on in to reside, they say some 11 million illegals. This is not a politically corrrect statement. Its only one issue - the US has to re-invent itself, things need to get worse before (or even 'if') they get better, that seems to be happening.

It'll survive, but it will take a decade or more. In the meantime it will face even deadly challenges in the world, perhaps even here in the Nth and South Pacific region.

Maybe, just maybe its 'stocks' are oversold, if so, it should bounce back. US fed GovCo will need to set about retiring its long term debt. That could take decades.


Buy a EURO spec hazard-warning triangle for your car - never know when you might need one, hopefully never! I suggest Hella Part No 2901, or automotive parts supplier Pro-Kit's Item No. RG9212

[windsorace]

The Big 3 were operating under an unsustainable business model. When the economy was going well, they made enough money to keep their heads above water. Now the economy is in very bad shape, they have no chance to survive without major restructuring of their business model. And the restructuring has to go beyond just the types of cars they sell.

I think you'll find that at ford they restructured their business model a couple of years ago thats why out of the BIG 3 they are still head above water where as the other 2 kept doin the same old thing thats why their in the S%#t. :goodjob:

[lowriding]

I think you'll find that at ford they restructured their business model a couple of years ago thats why out of the BIG 3 they are still head above water where as the other 2 kept doin the same old thing thats why their in the S%#t. :goodjob:

:confused::confused: technically Ford US are deeper sh1t at least as much , restructure = debt . the only difference is they started going under first 18 months back but secured the funding and loans when there was easy flowing credit ...that's not an option now..this is why Ford estimate they may enough reserve to just keep the head over the water line for the next 6 - 12 months , debt which is a dangerous dirty word in this climate . They have asked for a $9b line of credit from the Govt ,but if they need to draw on that they're pretty much gone because their $25billion debt facility is using every asset they have as collateral and that is not a good place to be .

[FOON]

Read this

http://www.tacomapjh.org/petrodollartheories.htm

Might help to explain the situation the US is in now.

[windsorace]

:confused::confused: technically Ford US are deeper sh1t at least as much , restructure = debt . the only difference is they started going under first 18 months back but secured the funding and loans when there was easy flowing credit ...that's not an option now..this is why Ford estimate they may enough reserve to just keep the head over the water line for the next 6 - 12 months , debt which is a dangerous dirty word in this climate . They have asked for a $9b line of credit from the Govt ,but if they need to draw on that they're pretty much gone because their $25billion debt facility is using every asset they have as collateral and that is not a good place to be .
Whatever debt they have at the moment is on their terms, I would rather spend my borrowed money how I wanted to spend it , rather than have big bro gov' tell me how I can spend it. If Im not spending it the right way they will come along and say 'not good enough, now shut up shop'. Also if the debt is used to restructure your business and makes it a better business therefore your chances of paying debt back are greater, something which GM and Chrysler are a bit late in doing so they are right behind the 8 ball.

[Ghia351]

:confused::confused: technically Ford US are deeper sh1t at least as much , restructure = debt . the only difference is they started going under first 18 months back but secured the funding and loans when there was easy flowing credit ...that's not an option now..this is why Ford estimate they may enough reserve to just keep the head over the water line for the next 6 - 12 months , debt which is a dangerous dirty word in this climate . They have asked for a $9b line of credit from the Govt ,but if they need to draw on that they're pretty much gone because their $25billion debt facility is using every asset they have as collateral and that is not a good place to be .Sorry lowriding however this time how can Ford be in a worse position than Chrysler or GM when it's the later that are facing bankruptcy before this years end or in the first few months of next year :confused:. Ford's position is very bad however the other two are far worse and if Ford decide to use the government funds who is to say it's because they have fully drawn down on their own line of credit. It might be cheaper to use the government funds then outside financing. Plus, as windsorace has stated the government strings will be long and tight, although I can't understand why the rescued US financial institutes weren't treated the same considering they started much of this global financial mess.

[lowriding]

At this junction i think i would rather owe the govt billions than 40 banking institutions in the US . Alan Mullally has been talking up their position to bolster the share price somewhat which is a good short term proposition but unfortunately he is still rearranging deck chairs on the ford ship . he borrowed us$26 billion in late 06/early 07 - the real estate holdings,the patents ,even the blue oval trademark everything they have was used as collateral in a last ditch attempt to save it from the brink if you can remember . everything is mortgaged to the eyeballs ,which is why they still have some cash liquidity at the moment- it's others peoples money ,the silverware already been sold ! This was late 06 /early 07 and was on the premise to be turned around and be profitable by 09 . sadly as we now know the economy has nose dived since and that hasnt worked as hoped .Basically Ford is on a huge leveraged gamble which needs the economy to fire .
like GM/Chrysler its share price has plummeted ,its market cap destroyed ,sales have not improved but all that debt still remains . noone could have seen that but it leaves FoMoCo and its assets very vulnerable to its creditors .They are using that borrowed cash to run the operation which was never the intent !

dec.10 -
"The company had $18.9 billion in cash on hand on Sept. 30 and still had about $10.7 billion of its credit lines available.

Yet Ford could be standing on a melting iceberg. The company spent $7.7 billion more than it took in the third quarter as U.S. auto sales fell, reaching an annualized sales rate of 10 million in November, the lowest level since October 1982.

Should industrywide U.S. auto sales drop to new lows in 2009, Ford says it would need to come to the government for help. In the plan it submitted to Congress last week, it asked for access to a $9 billion line of credit just in case.
Ford never thought the credit it lined up would be needed to run basic operations, at least until car sales plummeted this year.

"None of us thought it would go as deep as it was going to go and we would have to use it all," Mulally said.

regards

[VW Golf R32]

GM, Chrysler Failure Would Push Economy Into Abyss

By Michael McKee

Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. risks sliding into a deeper economic slump if General Motors Corp. or Chrysler LLC shuts down because President George W. Bush doesn’t provide short-term financial assistance.

“We’re already in a deep recession in my state, as we are in most of the 50 states,” Senator Sherrod Brown, a Democrat from Ohio said on CBS’s “Face the Nation” yesterday. “And this would just plunge us deeper into economic problems, into a hole that it would take a long, long time to extricate ourselves from.”

A bankruptcy filing by either company would mean production cuts and plant closings, and tens of thousands of workers would be fired, industry analysts say. That would cause many suppliers to collapse, triggering more job losses, straining the cities and states where the car and parts companies operate, as well as federal safety-net programs.

It would also deliver another psychological blow to consumers and a major shock to Main Street following the crises on Wall Street.

The Bush administration, including Treasury officials, White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten and Deputy Chief of Staff Joel Kaplan, spent the weekend in talks with auto executives and union leaders, according to Senator Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee. They were gathering financial information from the car companies, assessing the data and projecting how long their cash will last.

General Motors shares traded in Germany rose 6.3 percent to the equivalent of $4.19 as of 11:58 a.m. in Frankfurt. GM has declined 84 percent this year in New York Stock Exchange composite trading.

Run Out of Money

GM and Chrysler have said they need aid this month to avoid running out of money for operations. Ford Motor Co. asked for a credit line it said it may not have to use.

While “the economic ramifications of an outright bankruptcy would be severe,” according to New York University Professor Nouriel Roubini, most analysts say it’s difficult to estimate the full impact, given the large number of possible scenarios. The outcome depends on which companies filed for bankruptcy and when, and whether they would be able to continue building cars and trucks while in reorganization -- assuming they don’t go into liquidation.

“It would be unprecedented,” says Stephen Stanley, chief economist at RBS Greenwich Capital in Greenwich, Connecticut. “So it’s hard to say exactly what would happen.”

Still, a GM or Chrysler bankruptcy “would be the start of a cascade of failures,” says Dennis Virag, president of Automotive Consulting Group in Ann Arbor, Michigan. “The economy will be in chaos within weeks.”

Slowing Growth

The effect on growth would be significant if a bankruptcy shut one or more of the auto companies, although economists say the impact would be less than in decades past.

Gross domestic product fell at a 4.2 percent annual pace in the fourth quarter of 1970 -- when, like today, the U.S. was in a recession -- following a 67-day nationwide strike against GM. Now, auto production accounts for only about 3 percent of GDP, Stanley says.

“It would obviously be a sizeable jolt to the economy,” he says. “But the sector is not as important as it was.”

Even so, statistics from the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor show 239,000 people work in the U.S. for GM, Chrysler and Ford. The center, which does research for the auto companies, estimates total job losses would reach 2.5 million if GM failed and 3.5 million if all three auto companies went out of business in 2009.

Jobs Eliminated

That includes 1.4 million people in industries such as retailing that aren’t directly tied to manufacturing. Economists say each manufacturing job is responsible for an additional six outside the industry.

While many analysts say the Center for Automotive Research totals are exaggerated, the number of jobs eliminated would still be staggering.

“I don’t know that we’d lose all of those folks,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Corp.’s Economy.com. “But over a million in the first quarter of ‘09, I think, would be reasonable to expect.”

The total would depend on whether Americans keep buying cars and trucks. While a Chapter 11 bankruptcy would allow the automakers to continue making vehicles while they restructure, GM, Ford and Chrysler have argued that deliveries would drop precipitously. Customers would baulk at buying anything from a company that might not be around to fix it, they say.

Closing Dealerships

U.S. auto sales plunged 37 percent in November to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 10.2 million -- the lowest level in 26 years, according to Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey -- compared with 16.1 million a year earlier and 10.6 million in October.

Dealerships are already feeling the pinch. The National Automobile Dealers Association, a trade group based in McLean, Virginia, estimates that even without an automaker bankruptcy, 900 dealers will close this year and 1,100 next year, most of them GM, Ford and Chrysler franchises. The association says the three companies have more than 13,000 dealers nationwide, employing more than 700,000 workers.

The ripples of failure would also spread quickly to auto-parts makers. “There’s a fairly large number of suppliers out there very squeezed on cash right now,” says Jim Gillette, director of supplier analysis for CSM Worldwide, an automotive consulting firm in Northville, Michigan. “Vehicle volumes are so low, regardless of a bailout, that suppliers are still in trouble.”

Because many of these businesses work for all three companies, widespread closures would lead to production problems at Ford, even if it didn’t file for bankruptcy protection, officials at the No. 2 U.S. car company have said.

Parts Makers

Parts makers including American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc. and brake and powertrain-system makers ArvinMeritor Inc. and Hayes Lemmerz International Inc. employ 526,000 workers, according to U.S. Labor Department statistics, down more than 300,000 since 2000. Gillette predicts another fifth of them will lose their jobs in the coming year even if the automakers get bridge loans.

That will mean higher unemployment costs for states, which pay an average of $279 a week for benefits for 26 weeks, according to Jennifer Kaplan, a Labor Department economist. The payments can last as long as 39 weeks in some states, including Ohio, where GM has more than 11,000 employees, according to the company’s Web site. The jobless rate there was 7.2 percent in September.

Auto Retirees

Hundreds of thousands of auto retirees who depend on the companies for pensions and health insurance would also be affected. Bankruptcy could throw them into federal government programs -- including the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation and Medicare -- just when rescue packages and government market actions are ballooning the federal budget.

Taxpayers might be on the hook for more than $150 billion because “you’ll have more people on unemployment, more people needing health care and all of that,” Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, said yesterday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

The effect would be multiplied by an estimated decline in tax revenue for federal, state and local governments of $108.1 billion over three years if U.S. automakers’ operations were cut by 50 percent, the Center for Automotive Research says.

A collapse would quickly spread to financial markets, said Eric Selle, an automotive-credit analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. in a research report last month.

‘Credit Crisis, Part II’

GM, Ford, Chrysler and their credit operations comprise 10 percent of the high-yield bond market, he said, and any failure would have major implications for credit-default swaps, asset-backed securities and commercial paper. It would be “the credit crisis, part II,” he said.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke signaled less concern about the potential impact for the bond market in a Dec. 5 letter to Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd. The automakers’ bonds “already trade at 20 to 40 percent of par value, suggesting that many of the losses that would be associated with a default have probably already been recognized,” he said.

Even if the automakers get loans to continue operations, the economy is going to take a hit. All three companies have promised to cut workers and close plants as a condition of receiving aid. General Motors said Dec. 12 that it will close 30 plants for at least part of next quarter, cutting production by 250,000 vehicles. Honda Motor Co. said it will eliminate 119,000 vehicles from its North American production plan.

That means “suppliers are going to go under in the next few months, even if a bridge loan comes in,” Gillette says. “The only solution is to sell more cars.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Michael McKee in New York at mmckee@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: December 15, 2008 06:16 EST

[VX2VESS]

what a mess to big for their own good and everyone else's

[VW Golf R32]

US government to force auto bankruptcies? (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aOq9h59M.NQA&refer=home)

[Spin]

Unfortunately the big car manufacturers need to look at themselves as well and pull in the excessively high incomes of their senior executives. If they really cared about their survival they would, so why havent they?

[Ghia351]

Unfortunately the big car manufacturers need to look at themselves as well and pull in the excessively high incomes of their senior executives. If they really cared about their survival they would, so why havent they?The CEO's of the big 3 have stated they will work for $1 next year if the funding comes through...either way even if all senior management took a pay cut down to the level of a production line worker it would not help with the liquidity needs of the companies themselves....their current appetite for cash is billions more then any execs packages and would only be tokenism at best.

[VW Golf R32]

Auto bailout "still coming" (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081217/AUTO01/812170372/1148)

[Spin]

The CEO's of the big 3 have stated they will work for $1 next year if the funding comes through...either way even if all senior management took a pay cut down to the level of a production line worker it would not help with the liquidity needs of the companies themselves....their current appetite for cash is billions more then any execs packages and would only be tokenism at best.

I agree it would not make any difference financially I was mainly suggesting the way it looks to the general public and politicians. perception is reality and if they werent so self indulgent they might get a more sympathetic ear!:)

[John Wilson]

Chrysler US just announced closing ALL of there plants in the US for 4 weeks! Line workers will not get paid but all white collar and management will still be paid. John Wilson

[Mikey]

Chrysler US just announced closing ALL of there plants in the US for 4 weeks! Line workers will not get paid but all white collar and management will still be paid. John WilsonUnfortunate as it seems, but just remember that these people will not be required during this time and may even qualify for unemployment benefits or maybe pick up a months work somewhere else or so.

The white colour workers may probably be required to show up for work still.

[HSV700]

One of my mates sent this too me its not a bad read.

Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 7:46 AM



Bellow, an abridged letter from Troy Clarke, President of General Motors -



Dear Employee,

Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether
to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through

one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history.
Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is
critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial

crisis.............As an employee, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one

of our most effective and passionate voices.



I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.

Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.



Troy Clarke
President
General Motors North America





Response to GM, from President of Knox Machinery...

Gregory Knox,



In response to Mr. Clarke's request to call legislators and ask for a bailout

for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please
pass this on to Troy Clark, president of General Motors North America.

You are all infected with the same entitlement mentality that was bred
like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last four decades. This plague is

now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical

wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time, encouraging

our once great nation to keep "living the dream". The dream is over!



The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management

myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages. At the same time our

factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant,

lazy, entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for their atrocities

while thinking that still, the masses will line up to buy your products.



Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak.

I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle
and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier-Ones for 3 decades now
throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops

can only be described as disgusting.

Mr. Clark, the General Motors president, states:

There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially

in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management.

It is not.

You're right - it's not JUST management.

How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times,

making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can

come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could

have done within their normal 40 hour week.



How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for

putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn't expose

the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades of their horrific

underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?



How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: over the last few

years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.
What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?
Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?
The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on?
We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto

industry for decades. Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu,

surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of

"bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what

people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact

rise the next day and something else would rise,where there had been greedy and sloppy

banks, new efficient ones would pop up. That is how a free market system works. It does

work if we would let it work.



But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism

doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us." Save us, hell - we're

nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a

clue that this is what's really happening. But they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite

sports teams - yeah - THAT'S important.

Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, PROFITABLY,

for decades in this country?...



How can that be???

Let's see. Fuel efficient. Listening to customers. Investing in the proper tooling and automation

for the long haul and not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming

4 decades ago; Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans.

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy". Efficient front and back

offices. Non union environment.

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't

already know in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you

out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not

daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their

greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the

consequences of their actions and work them through. Radical concept, huh.

Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to

be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable

parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the

United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah

really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away". I laughed as

I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied.

"We might not do it in a year or in four" where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING
for the office.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable. That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000.

People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits.
That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year.
We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a

country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights

infractions on the face of the globe. That couple whose combined income is less than

$50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home.



Let the market correct itself people - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful

either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation

that appreciates what it has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics

and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world

and probably turns back to God.



Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news".


Gregory J Knox
President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 4500

[VW Golf R32]

Talk of 'orderly bankruptcy' implies that there may be no auto bailout offered

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-12-18-autos-bankruptcy-white-house_N.htm

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081219/AUTO01/812190336

[V-Car]

GM and Chrysler win US aid.

From Automotive News.
19/12/08


WASHINGTON -- President Bush today announced emergency federal loans to prevent the collapse of General Motors and Chrysler LLC.
The announcement of the unprecedented action came in a White House press conference.


http://www.autonews.com/article/20081219/ANA02/812199997/1197

[John Wilson]

Members of U. S. Congress just voted themselves a $4700.00 pay raise for next year! They now make $169,300. Total in 2009. $174,000.

[djst]

GM and Chrysler win US aid.

From Automotive News.
19/12/08



http://www.autonews.com/article/20081219/ANA02/812199997/1197

This keeps them alive until March,and it seems there will have to be some major pain and restructuring in a short 3x month period.
Gm still needs to save GMAC,and also work out how to turn around a 65 billion dollar debt,which has now turned into 78 Billion dollar debt.

Some where along the line this will also have an effect on Holden.

[VW Golf R32]

Doubts begin to surface about bailouts effectiveness (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=akb.lKHJdyag&refer=news)

[Streeter]

Originally the accusation was that the Big 3 were making the wrong sorts of cars, and that they had to change. They did this 30 years ago, designing a whole fleet of new smaller cars, like the downsized 1977 Olds family car below. Back in the late '70s GM and Ford could afford to redesign, they were big and powerful, Chrysler at that time got bailed out by the government and started making 1980s minivans (people movers). Today the bailout money just keeps the wolves away from the door, but what comes after that? How will anything be different without new models.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/OldsDelta881977Ad.jpg

Ol' V8 iron (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

[keepleft]

Last nights news ticker, "South Korea's Ssanyong filing for bankruptcy".








Purchase a hazard-warning triangle for your car to improve the ‘warning-time’ given to approaching traffic at both crash scenes and vehicle breakdowns. Store it in the boot. I suggest Hella Part No. 2901 - $70; a World/Euro standard triangle exceeding AS3790 triangle performance requirements. http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/lic_drivesafe4.pdf

[VW Golf R32]

No great loss as their cars look awful.

[VW Golf R32]

2009 anticipated to be the worst year for car sales since 1982 (http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE50C3T420090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&sp=true)

That's nasty if it eventuates.

[VW Golf R32]

http://www.247wallst.com/2009/02/2009-car-sales.html

[warlobo]

I dont think Obama will let them go (if he has any say in it) as they would take alot of others with them if sink... huge implications worldwide would be too great I believe so they will survive however it will be interesting to watch, and to some extent scary... a sign of just how bad the times are the impact of which we are yet to feel...

[VW Golf R32]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090214/AUTO01/902140414

[mmciau]

There are other sites reporting that GM has already used the 'bail-out' money and is almost ready to apply for US Chapter 11.

Mike

[VW Golf R32]

With new vehicle sales continuing to fall that wouldn't be difficult to believe. Car companies are burning through cash reserves very fast at the moment.

[Excellent]

There are other sites reporting that GM has already used the 'bail-out' money and is almost ready to apply for US Chapter 11.

Mike

They have to pay it back if GM cannot prove itself viable.

[VW Golf R32]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/GM-say-more-aid-bankruptcy/story.aspx?guid=%7BD2483F8A%2D638A%2D4A2B%2D9EC2%2 D428EE920D5E5%7D

[VW Golf R32]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123483084725295657.html?mod=mktw

[shakows]

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25072183-31037,00.html

Pretty Brutal news, 47,000 jobs to be lost world wide, 26,000 outside the US

[Excellent]

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25072183-31037,00.html

Pretty Brutal news, 47,000 jobs to be lost world wide, 26,000 outside the US

It's only now that GM, Ford and others will be allowed to restructure without UAW interference that the job losses are so brutal. If GM, Ford were allowed to restructure when they needed to they wouldn't be in this predicament.

[VW Golf R32]

GM loses $9.6 billion in fourth quarter

By MarketWatch
Last update: 7:42 a.m. EST Feb. 26, 2009

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- General Motors Corp. on Thursday reported another massive loss in the fourth quarter, burning through $6.2 billion in cash as the auto maker continues its push for more funding from the federal government.

GM shares hit a 74-year low of $1.52 last week but have strung together back-to-back gains to move all the way back to $2.55. Still, the Dow component has given up 89% of its value in the past year. In premarket trading Thursday, shares were down more than 7%.

The Detroit giant reported a loss of $9.6 billion, or $15.71 a share, compared with a loss of $1.5 billion, or $2.70 a share, in the year-ago period.
On an adjusted basis, the company posted a net loss of $5.9 billion, or $9.65 a share, compared to adjusted net income of $46 million, or 8 cents a share.
Revenue dropped to $30.8 billion from $46.8 billion as a result of the worst industry sales results in decades. GM reported a 48.9% drop in January U.S. light vehicle sales to 128,198 cars and trucks from 250,926 a year earlier.

Analysts polled by FactSet Research were looking for a loss, on average, of $6.91 a share on revenue of $35.49 billion.
"We expect these challenging conditions will continue through 2009, and so we are accelerating our restructuring actions," said Rick Wagoner, chairman and chief executive officer, in the company's press release.

Ford Motor Co. which has declined a taxpayer handout so far, already set the stage for a dismal earnings season for the industry. The company posted a loss earlier this month of $5.9 billion, completing its worst annual loss ever of $14.6 billion.

GM submitted its viability plan to the U.S. Treasury last week in which it asked for up to $30 billion in low-cost loans. GM and rival Chrysler still need to secure concessions from union workers, creditors and other stockholders by the end of next month to maintain the government's backing.

GM also said it expects to receive a "going concern" opinion from its auditors in the 2008 10-K.

Friday, February 27, 2009
Daniel Howes
Commentary: General Motors choking as global economy gasps

The world may not be enough to keep General Motors Corp. afloat.

As the ailing automaker gutted through a years-long North American restructuring that morphed last fall into pleas for a $30 billion lifeline from the feds, GM's revenue and, especially, profits from China, Latin America and robust growth in Eastern Europe partially offset massive losses back home.

Not anymore.

The foreign strands of GM's safety net, according to its year-end financials Thursday, are fraying quickly, too. Fourth-quarter revenue from Asia -- $2.6 billion -- is less than half what it was a year ago. Latin America ended the quarter $578 million in the red. Production in Europe slid 53.2 percent to 214,000 cars, contributing to a $1.6 billion pre-tax loss in Europe for the year.

GM's Saab Automobile AB is in bankruptcy, ostensibly to recapitalize itself but most likely to die. Its Adam Opel AG unit in Germany wants financial help from an irritated government in Berlin. And GM altogether is seeking $6 billion in aid from foreign governments, none of which is keen to bail out an American behemoth tied to American bankers blamed for the global financial mess.

The simultaneous downturns are harsh reminders that tapping new markets, setting standards in places like China, Russia and the largest markets of Latin America, and selling more vehicles outside the United States than at home don't help much when a) the American market is imploding and b) the rest of the world is following close behind.

Worse, the excesses and perceived excesses of Wall Street, Congress, investors, the Federal Reserve, the Bush administration and homeowners who bought homes they could not afford are inflaming resentments overseas against things American.

That's seldom a boon to sales of consumer products, particularly when the slowdowns deliver such job losses, plant closings and more economic uncertainty as GM's predicament is bringing to places like Sweden, Germany and other parts of Europe.

When GM needs the rest of the world most, a dividend of its savvy expansion into places others are only starting to really exploit, the rest of the world is sputtering. And it doesn't much matter, at least to GM brass angling for more loans from the Treasury, that the slowdown is affecting its rivals, too.

Net-net: GM lost a stunning $30.9 billion for the year, burned another $5.2 billion in cash over the final three months of this year and ended the calendar year with a $45.3 billion debt balance, including the $13.4 billion in bridge loans the automaker already has received from the Treasury.

None of which will bolster the automaker's case to the audience that will matter most to its survival over the next several weeks -- the Obama administration's auto task force, related departments and Republicans in Congress.

The bigger the numbers get, the more they will fuel those (congressional Republicans) arguing for an end to bridge loans and the beginning of a bankruptcy proceeding. So long as the loans stop, to them it doesn't much matter if it's a traditional Chapter 11 (unlikely) or a government-financed process designed to keep GM's massive supply base from collapse.

The biggest obstacles are politics and fear of the unknown effects a GM bankruptcy would have on a weak economy and weaker consumer confidence. In assembling a task force of bureaucrats, academics and the occasional investment banker -- but no auto or manufacturing types -- for his auto task force, President Obama has ensured GM's fate will be subjected to the ponderous meddling of political calculation and special interest lobbying.

How that would expedite a GM workout, instead of complicate and lengthen it, remains to be seen. My guess is that it won't, which is probably the president's intention.

With each passing week and each new financial reckoning -- the Feb. 17 viability plan followed by Thursday's results -- the arc of GM's story is becoming more clear in part because its claims that bankruptcy "is not an option" have all but disappeared.

GM appears less likely to continue wrangling over another set of bridge loans from a quasi-sympathetic White House and more likely to embrace a formal process that mirrors bankruptcy -- minus the "Chapter 11" label.

[Streeter]

2009 anticipated to be the worst year for car sales since 1982 (http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE50C3T420090113?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&sp=true)

That's nasty if it eventuates.

Knight Rider 6.6 litre (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/Timbuk2/best_picture_ever.jpg

Ah yes, 1982, t'was a year of big hair and small bank accounts. We didn't have much money, but we had The Hoff!:rofl:

[VW Golf R32]

GM's 20-year global plan unraveling

Demolition of the House that Jack Built is about to begin, and it's starting in Germany.

General Motors Corp.'s plea for $4.2 billion in aid from European governments, the acknowledgment it has no Plan B and a willingness to surrender control of its European operations to get a cash lifeline means the de facto de-globalization of GM is under way.

A stunning reversal, it would mark the unwinding of a 20-year strategy conceived by retired Chairman Jack Smith and leveraged by his successors into strong market positions in China, Russia, Europe and Latin America. Now, it's all in danger of coming apart, driven by sheer financial necessity and not strategic design.

One possible result, I'm told, is that government negotiators in Germany, Spain and the United Kingdom would insist that a GM Europe recapitalized with their taxpayer money -- possibly to be called "Opel Vauxhall Europa" after GM's two European brands -- be aligned with but financially walled off from GM in the United States.

The new entity would have its own financial structure, a separate management team and a governing structure that would include organized labor in what Germans call a "co-determined" model, according to a ranking source familiar with the situation. Three plants would be closed or sold, but assembly operations in Spain, Britain and two of three in Germany likely would survive.

A restructured GM Europe would be integrated with GM's global engineering, powertrain and purchasing. In theory, that would give the entity the benefits of global scale even as it would still supply GM with the expertise used to produce the all-new Chevrolet Malibu and the upcoming Chevy Cruze.

Is this what GM execs back in Detroit, already $13.4 billion-and-counting in debt to Washington, want? Hardly, considering their deep cultural and financial investment in a "global GM."

Does the company accustomed to being the "world's largest automaker" have the leverage or financial wherewithal to preclude what could amount to a government-financed takeover of its European operations? No, as Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson repeatedly made clear this week at the Geneva Motor Show in Switzerland.

Does a smaller, restructured and potentially independent GM Europe threaten GM's global integration and dismantle a cornerstone of Smith's legacy? It could do both, depending on how much control GM is forced to cede in exchange for the government money it says it needs by sometime next month.

This isn't what Smith had in mind after the Soviet Union dissolved, China opened itself to foreign investment, Latin America stabilized and the onetime head of GM-International concluded the only way GM could compete with the Toyota juggernaut was to emulate it.

Smith used GM Europe to spearhead a move into the former Soviet Bloc, the first western automaker to do so. Its state-of-the-art plant in the East German town of Eisenach was first run by Chrysler LLC Vice Chairman Tom LaSorda, and Eisenach became the template GM replicated for a manufacturing expansion onto three continents.

Smith cut the deal for GM to acquire Sweden's Saab Automobil AB, now in bankruptcy. He led GM into China, executed a troubled joint venture in Russia with the support of GM Europe and understood the value of using South Korea as a low-cost exporter long before rivals did.

And Smith chose Adam Opel AG, GM's unit in Germany and a source of continued bickering between Europe and Detroit, to launch a global manufacturing push and to develop common engineering, purchasing and powertrain processes that would offset the struggling business back home.

Not now, because it can't. The global recession is hammering European markets, too, increasing the likelihood that GM's overseas earnings cushion is going flat just when the Detroit automaker needs it most. Lose control of GM Europe, and the earnings hit could be worse.

Worse, this is an opportunity for longtime critics inside GM Europe and, especially, Opel to engineer a break from the parent. GM bought Opel in 1929, watched as the Soviet army shipped Opel tooling back to Moscow after World War II and endured tiresome corporate infighting that reached a crescendo in the late 1990s.

But resentments die hard, as I witnessed during a four-year stint covering the European industry from Germany. Just like Chrysler's 2007 collapse offered Daimler AG a chance to end its nine-year tie-up, an imperiled GM lobbying for European government aid is seen as an opportunity to reassert German control over the mass-market brand -- 80 years after losing it.

This isn't what Jack envisioned. He's not the only one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no

GM MUST SURVIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

GM: Substantial doubt over ability to be going concern

By Steve Goldstein
Last update: 6:23 a.m. EST March 5, 2009

(GM) said in a 10-K filing that there's substantial doubt over its ability to continue as a going concern. Its auditor, Deloitte & Touche, also expressed those doubts. GM had previously flagged that a review of whether it was viable would come in the 10-K filing. "Our independent public accounting firm has issued an opinion on our consolidated financial statements that states that the consolidated financial statements were prepared assuming we will continue as a going concern and further states that our recurring losses from operations, stockholders' deficit and inability to generate sufficient cash flow to meet our obligations and sustain our operations raise substantial doubt about our ability to continue as a going concern," GM said. "If we fail to [execute the Viability Plan successfully], we would not be able to continue as a going concern and could potentially be forced to seek relief through a filing under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code." The plan is contingent that vehicle sales will decline further in 2009 but begin to recover in 2010.

[VW Golf R32]

---------------------------------------------

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/Scz2Gr4WPgI/AAAAAAAAE6I/KMam4_Jd7XY/s1600-h/VehicleSalesFed2009.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/Scz2Gr4WPgI/AAAAAAAAE6I/KMam4_Jd7XY/s1600-h/VehicleSalesFed2009.jpg

[Road Warrior]

There's reports coming out this morning that Rick Wagoner has stood down. Apparently on request of the White House :confused:

[VW Golf R32]

There's reports coming out this morning that Rick Wagoner has stood down. Apparently on request of the White House :confused:

Yes it is true. Obama will soon own GM.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090330/AUTO01/903300357/Obama+forces+Wagoner+out+at+GM

[Ausmartin1]

Looks like Rick at GM was not Fast engough in acting & it was too long to restructer "looking in the review mirror".

That the crappy Ford of NA is in better shape than GM at the moment is a disgrace!

Obama's probably right - after all a couple of pulbic service baffons couldn't do much worse than the so called GM acclaimed in house experts who were driving this huge gm ship barge & couldn't steer it through the expected rocky Inlet.......

Sad real Sad.
Let's hope GMH stays with the good GM even if it is controlled out of Shanghi at the moment. aaaaarrgh !

[banarcus]

Money seems to be pretty tight over there. Who's to say that GM may even close the V6 factory down and import Australian spec engines for the Commodore? Holden may even have to resurrect the 304 when GM stop building large capacity V8 engines.

[HSV700]

Money seems to be pretty tight over there. Who's to say that GM may even close the V6 factory down and import Australian spec engines for the Commodore? Holden may even have to resurrect the 304 when GM stop building large capacity V8 engines.

Their was nothing wrong with old bent 8 IMO.

The last of them that where stroked to 5.7 was the best by a long way, but only had 220KW if my memory is right.

I guess the problem would be power needs to be stepped up and fuel ecc would need to be improved and meet all the ADR rules re polution etc.

But I would love to see a 320 + KW bent 8.

[VX2VESS]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8430325

GM bankruptcy threat puts pressure on
* GM now open to a court-supervised bankruptcy
* GM bondholders willing to take equity if plan viable
* GM shares plunge 25 pct
By Poornima Gupta
DETROIT, March 30 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp and Chrysler LLC were both put on notice by the Obama administration on Monday and markets reacted with dismay to the specter of bankruptcy for the troubled automakers that could wipe out equity and add to the huge losses of creditors.
Yet some analysts say the hard line delivered by U.S. President Barack Obama's autos task force may just be the tonic needed to bring the warring GM factions -- the United Auto Workers and bondholders -- back to the bargaining table.


got until the end of May then they maybe gone

M now faces an end of May deadline after the U.S. government promised only to fund the automaker's operations for the next 60 days in consultation with advisers from the task force and external consultants.
For its part, Chrysler has 30 days to clinch an alliance with Fiat SpA and reach its own deal with creditors. Privately held Chrysler needs to get a consortium of bank lenders, including J.P. Morgan, Goldman Sachs Group Inc and Citigroup Inc to write down the value of $6.8 billion in first-lien loans secured by the automaker's assets, including the famous Jeep brand.

[Ausmartin1]

Their was nothing wrong with old bent 8 IMO.
The last of them that where stroked to 5.7 was the best by a long way, but only had 220KW if my memory is right.
I guess the problem would be power needs to be stepped up and fuel ecc would need to be improved and meet all the ADR rules re polution etc.
But I would love to see a 320 + KW bent 8.

In reality I don't think they would bother... you would more likely see a commerial truck engine or some small family turboed up GM engine.
I don't discount anything these days in this crazy economic climate.

So why not go electric ? 100% torque 100% through the rev range.....
It will be life jim, but not as we know it - today.....:)

[slipper]

Here is the US government's report card on the General's plan:
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2009/pdf/GM_Viability_Assessment_FINAL%20_2_.pdf

I don't think they like what they read - so off with Rick's head... The last paragraph is the kicker:

"As a result, the President’s Designee has found that General Motors’ plan is not viable as it
is currently structured. However, given the improvements that have been made to date, and the path on which these
improvements place GM, we believe that there could be a viable business within GM if the Company and its stakeholders
engage in a substantially more aggressive restructuring plan."

[djst]

Here is the US government's report card on the General's plan:
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2009/pdf/GM_Viability_Assessment_FINAL%20_2_.pdf

I don't think they like what they read - so off with Rick's head... The last paragraph is the kicker:

"As a result, the President’s Designee has found that General Motors’ plan is not viable as it
is currently structured. However, given the improvements that have been made to date, and the path on which these
improvements place GM, we believe that there could be a viable business within GM if the Company and its stakeholders
engage in a substantially more aggressive restructuring plan."


"Sustantially more aggressive restructuring plan"

This is where the knife comes out,but as yet not alot of clarification on where the deeper cuts will exactly be.

[VW Golf R32]

"Sustantially more aggressive restructuring plan"

This is where the knife comes out,but as yet not alot of clarification on where the deeper cuts will exactly be.

At Holden within the next week.

[hank]

That car had a 5.0L 190 hp.

[shakows]

That car had a 5.0L 190 hp.

Get the new SS, now has 141kw :(

Things are starting to look really bad

[slipper]

"Sustantially more aggressive restructuring plan"

This is where the knife comes out,but as yet not alot of clarification on where the deeper cuts will exactly be.

Also interesting that Wagoner was asked to go. What about all those boneheads at the top of Merrills, BoA, Citi and AIG? How come they get to stay *and* keep thier bonuses despite causing the problem to start with and getting lots more money than GM and Chrysler?

[ti0350]

You can tell which industry really runs the country..

[Fnomna]

This is where the knife comes out,but as yet not alot of clarification on where the deeper cuts will exactly be.

GM to cut 5,000 White Collar Workers
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/gm-cut-5-000-white-collar-workers-77361/

[HSV471]

Heard on the news yesterday morning that Chrysler was merging with FIAT :confused:

[VW Golf R32]

Heard on the news yesterday morning that Chrysler was merging with FIAT :confused:

Chrysler is ATTEMPTING to merge with Fiat. They have 30 days to succeed or they are history.

[mac06]

The following is an extract from what Obama said on 30th March. Will the US Auto industry survive? The US government simply won't let it disappear, they have to save face. They will however make sure the loans made have a good chance of being paid back, plus force the unions in an indirect way to take a good hard look at themselves. Anything less and it will be forced through chapter 11 bankruptcy. Then the unions won't have a leg to stand on and they'll wish they had made bigger concessions a long time ago. Having said that, I'm almost certain the unions will see the writing on the wall and make the concessions they need to.


Year after year, decade after decade, we have seen problems papered-over and tough choices kicked down the road, even as foreign competitors outpaced us. Well, we have reached the end of that road. And we, as a nation, cannot afford to shirk responsibility any longer. Now is the time to confront our problems head-on and do what’s necessary to solve them.
We cannot, we must not, and we will not let our auto industry simply vanish. This industry is, like no other, an emblem of the American spirit; a once and future symbol of America’s success. It is what helped build the middle class and sustained it throughout the 20th century. It is a source of deep pride for the generations of American workers whose hard work and imagination led to some of the finest cars the world has ever known. It is a pillar of our economy that has held up the dreams of millions of our people. But we also cannot continue to excuse poor decisions. And we cannot make the survival of our auto industry dependent on an unending flow of tax dollars. These companies – and this industry – must ultimately stand on their own, not as wards of the state.

[Streeter]

Chrysler is ATTEMPTING to merge with Fiat. They have 30 days to succeed or they are history.

I believe the decision of the Obama administration to let Chrysler sink or swim is pretty sad. I can't see Fiat buying them.

Just a few years ago everyone was buying PT Cruisers and they had to put a third shift on to keep up with demand. Obama will go down in history as the president that killed the Hemi.:bawl:

What will Homer do once GM is gone?:)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/Homer.jpg

Homer's '68 bird (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

[VX2VESS]

pt crusier would be ok with a hemi v8 in it...

wouldn't like to see them go they have some ok cars....

[shakows]

My Wife had a Chrysler Neon before we got together.

What a piece of crap.

For a car made in 2000, 3 Speed Auto and Drum Brakes, just to name a few things that let it down, let alone the crappy engine, that was leaking oil and other issues at 50,000km, was glad to trade it in

A sign of things to come Chysler, poorly made cars = a poor future

[VX2VESS]

My Wife had a Chrysler Neon before we got together.

What a piece of crap.

For a car made in 2000, 3 Speed Auto and Drum Brakes, just to name a few things that let it down, let alone the crappy engine, that was leaking oil and other issues at 50,000km, was glad to trade it in

A sign of things to come Chysler, poorly made cars = a poor future

bad example that thing was a POS probably the worst ever

[Holden Man]

How Ironic !

" Take the Pontiac G8 for example: despite a market that's off over 40%, the G8 sedan saw its best sales ever last month - over double the number sold in January.

The final tally for February was 2,707 of the roomy sedans sold, up 1,376 from the 1,331 sold in January, and up 27% from the previous best sales month for the car, which happened in April, 2008.

At the same time, General Motors' overall sales fell over 50% against February 2008 to just 53,813 cars. Nevertheless, the high sales numbers for the high-value - and in GT and GXP trims, high-performing - sedan hint that the future may not be as bleak as it had seemed just a few short months ago.
"

http://www.motorauthority.com/pontiac-g8-sees-record-sales-amid-harrowed-industry.html


Let Holden take over GM :jester:

[banarcus]

Let Holden take over GM :jester:

Hmm holden haven't made a profit since 2004 so where did that $1billion come from?

When the american taxpayer demands that their tax dollars stay in the united states, general motors will have no choice but to give gm holden the flick. Not good for the australian automotive industry. The writing is on the wall.

[Holden Man]

Hmm holden haven't made a profit since 2004 so where did that $1billion come from?

When the american taxpayer demands that their tax dollars stay in the united states, general motors will have no choice but to give gm holden the flick. Not good for the australian automotive industry. The writing is on the wall.

To think GM lead the world with an "Electric" car (Which forced Toyota and Honda to copy the idea) only to scrap it and bring out the hummer. :goodjob:

[planetdavo]

Chrysler were screwed the minute their current owners took control. All they do is rip every cent of cost out of everything possible, leaving a hollow shell.

[Jac001]

Hmm holden haven't made a profit since 2004 so where did that $1billion come from?

When the american taxpayer demands that their tax dollars stay in the united states, general motors will have no choice but to give gm holden the flick. Not good for the australian automotive industry. The writing is on the wall.


Whats quite funny, is that GM gave holden the flick back in the late 80's! They sold half the company to toyota and told them they were on their own, sick or swim! (they only bought the company back as toyota sold it when they were havign financail trouble 10 years later).

Firstly the $1B was being spent as early as 2000, and the losses made by holden in 2005 onwards include this cost.

In 2007, holden posted a $6m loss, (up from $170+m loss in 2006) which shows the direction holden was traveling. When you keep this in context that hodlens was producing some $4.5B worth of product just at the elizabeth plant that year.

If you believe the talk around holdens at the moment, even with the slump (and massive cost cutting) holden is actually making a profit and sending money back to the US!

[VW Golf R32]

Whats quite funny, is that GM gave holden the flick back in the late 80's! They sold half the company to toyota and told them they were on their own, sick or swim! (they only bought the company back as toyota sold it when they were havign financail trouble 10 years later).

Pardon? Holden were on the ropes in the mid 1980s until GM gave them $700,000,000 to keep them going and split the company into Holden Ltd and Holden's Engine Company.

As for Toyota, they were never in financial trouble until very recently.

[planetdavo]

The shared Holden and Toyota models of that era were to do with the governments policies at the time. Ford and Nissan were doing similar.

[VW Golf R32]

The shared Holden and Toyota models of that era were to do with the governments policies at the time. Ford and Nissan were doing similar.

It was called the Button plan.

[VW Golf R32]

I started this thread six months ago questioning this remote possibility. It has now become a distinct possibility that either GM and Chrysler, or both of them, will be declared bankrupt by the middle of this year. What happens next is anybody's guess.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/general-motors-on-the-road-to-bankruptcy-1668300.html

[shakows]

I started this thread six months ago questioning this remote possibility. It has now become a distinct possibility that either GM and Chrysler, or both of them, will be declared bankrupt by the middle of this year. What happens next is anybody's guess.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/general-motors-on-the-road-to-bankruptcy-1668300.html

From the article

Bondholders who have lent some $29bn to GM have been holding out against government calls for them to convert the majority of their investment into equity, in the hope of limiting the haircut they must take. It is understood that they have lodged objections to the plan to break the company into two, and are considering opposing the Obama plan in court.

This could get very messy, also what about the benefits of employee's.
Some people will be left very unhappy with GM no matter which way this goes down

[VW Golf R32]

US politicians pushing GM to bankruptcy? (http://www.detnews.com/article/20090414/OPINION03/904140326/Commentary++Politics+rule+General+Motors+run+to+ba nkruptcy)

[clubbie]

The shared Holden and Toyota models of that era were to do with the governments policies at the time. Ford and Nissan were doing similar.

Button plan it was.

Ford and Mazda shared models......not Nissan....but you knew that didn't you?:rofl:

As for the bankruptcy bond holders, investors, suppliers and staff are between a rock and a hard place...... they either accept the new terms or get fark all. So they can talk all they want, they can take GM to court but they are bringing the biggest possible loss onto themselves. On the other hand leaving GM to restructure and hopefully trade with a profit is a win win situation. Sometimes people need to be careful what they say and wish for.

Edit: My bad was thinking 323/laser

[vecommo]

Button plan it was.

Ford and Mazda shared models......not Nissan....but you knew that didn't you?:rofl:

Actually he's right....Remember the Nissan Pintara/Ford Corsair and the XF/Nissan ute?

[lowriding]

Button plan it was.

Ford and Mazda shared models......not Nissan....but you knew that didn't you?:rofl:

oh really ? :)


http://i.ebayimg.com/06/!BP-zU,Q!2k~$(KGrHgoOKjgEjlLmYUWJBJ2deBlROw~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!BP-zrY!CGk~$(KGrHgoOKiYEjlLmep38BJ2dgqyVJQ~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

[vecommo]

oh really ? :)


http://i.ebayimg.com/06/!BP-zU,Q!2k~$(KGrHgoOKjgEjlLmYUWJBJ2deBlROw~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!BP-zrY!CGk~$(KGrHgoOKiYEjlLmep38BJ2dgqyVJQ~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

:spew: WTF were they thinking? This would have to be the cheapest and nastiest example of badge engineering I've ever seen.

[lowriding]

No worse than the holden Apollo / Camry and Toyota Lexcen /VN .

[vecommo]

No worse than the holden Apollo / Camry and Toyota Lexcen /VN .

At least with those there were a number of visual changes made....different lights, garnishes, trim, grilles etc etc. All Nissan did with these utes was throw on a couple of badges and that's it!

[Martin_D]

:spew: WTF were they thinking? This would have to be the cheapest and nastiest example of badge engineering I've ever seen.

That would have to be the cheapest and nastiest Nissan you have ever seen too. At least Aunt Mavis old 120Y could keep a head gasket in it for more than a month, didnt piss oil out the rocker cover, and the door handles still hadnt broken after two years of ownership.....couldnt really say the same about the XF.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :eek:

[matts]

oh really ? :)


http://i.ebayimg.com/06/!BP-zU,Q!2k~$(KGrHgoOKjgEjlLmYUWJBJ2deBlROw~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!BP-zrY!CGk~$(KGrHgoOKiYEjlLmep38BJ2dgqyVJQ~~_1.JPG?se t_id=8800005007

Don't forget the Maverick either.

[COSMOS]

and Holden shared models with Nissan also

remember the Nissan Pulsar of the late 80's and the Holden Astra of the same period...

ohh and the VL 3.0 was out of a Nissan Skyline...

[clubbie]

That would have to be the cheapest and nastiest Nissan you have ever seen too. At least Aunt Mavis old 120Y could keep a head gasket in it for more than a month, didnt piss oil out the rocker cover, and the door handles still hadnt broken after two years of ownership.....couldnt really say the same about the XF.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :eek:

You forgot to add rear main seals made of jelly:rofl:

[Road Warrior]

Seems like Nissan whored themselves out to everybody. Shame Derryn, shame.

As the owner of a bunky XF ute I have to say that that Nissan XF ute looked bloody retarded then as it does now. I got an idea there was another badge engineered car that we have missed??

Pintara/Corsair
Patrol/Maverick
XF ute/Nissan ute
Camry/Apollo
Corolla/Nova
Commodore/Lexcen
Pulsar/Astra
??

[hallyoz]

Suzuki Swift/Barina
Sierra/Drover

[mac06]

Suzuki Ignis/ Holden Cruze AWD

[VX2VESS]

and mazda 626 = ford Telstar

[Road Warrior]

Suzuki Carryvan/Holden Scurry :lol:

[mac06]

It's all going to be okay. Ikea has just announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars. This is their flat pack plan. I think were deep in trouble.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/mac06_07/Ikeavehicle.jpg

[Ghia351]

It's all going to be okay. Ikea has just announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars. This is their flat pack plan. I think were deep in trouble.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/mac06_07/Ikeavehicle.jpgI can't spot the Ikea Allen key?

[Ausmartin1]

Allan key missing .....
Oh that was used to open the crate all the crap came in, naturally it didn't survive as it was manufactured in China
LOL! :rofl:

[clubbie]

Seems like Nissan whored themselves out to everybody. Shame Derryn, shame.

As the owner of a bunky XF ute I have to say that that Nissan XF ute looked bloody retarded then as it does now. I got an idea there was another badge engineered car that we have missed??

Pintara/Corsair
Patrol/Maverick
XF ute/Nissan ute
Camry/Apollo
Corolla/Nova
Commodore/Lexcen
Pulsar/Astra
??

626/telstar
323/laser

[VT_Lance]

It's all going to be okay. Ikea has just announced it's intention to take over GM and sell cars. This is their flat pack plan. I think were deep in trouble.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/mac06_07/Ikeavehicle.jpg

lol almost finish and find a problem and need to return to sender for a new one lol

[V-Car]

Mazda B-series ute = Ford Courier back in 1979 and still today with the BT50 = Ford Ranger.

But back way before that, i think the first model sharing (of sorts) by a local manufacturer was Holden and Mazda in 1975 where Mazda used HJ Premier bodies fitted with 13B rotary engines for the JDM as the Mazda Roadpacer.

[shakows]

Just saw that GM have to recall 1.5 Million cars for problems with the 3.8L Engine, possibly catching on fire

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53D31P20090414

Thats bad in so many ways, especially at this time

Is that the same engine as the ECOTEC we use here?

[fatbob]

I such a cynic - sorry in advance - but anyone who reads my posts has usually worked that out already.
So I wonder to myself - is having a recall really bad for GM ??
Don't think sales - think need for GM.

[Ausmartin1]

Just saw that GM have to recall 1.5 Million cars for problems with the 3.8L Engine, possibly catching on fire

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53D31P20090414

Thats bad in so many ways, especially at this time

Is that the same engine as the ECOTEC we use here?

Not unless you have a FWD Ecotec 3800 !
Not in Australia anyway .... All ours 3800 are RWD and OK ! :goodjob:

[Streeter]

I still can't believe that Pontiac has been axed and that Chrysler has been allowed to go bankrupt. Would you buy a new car from a brand that is either being phased out (GM's description of what it's doing with Pontiac) or in receivership? Either way if the Bandit ever rides back into town it will probably be on a Mustang...or a Honda Civic.:bawl:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k259/tlake_2006/FirebirdBanditonTransAm.jpg

Bandit's 6.6 (http://www.er3.com/firebird/67firebirdT.htm)

[shakows]

Either way if the Bandit ever rides back into town it will probably be on a Mustang...or a Honda Civic.:bawl:

I'm going with a Tata Nano :spew:

[Road Warrior]

Still won't be the same without Dom Delouise. RIP

[BlownLS7]

FYI
Gm sold more cars in china Last month(around 200,000) than all of the cars they sold in australia in 2007 which was their biggest year (146000), maybe China and India will be the saviour for them, however bankruptcy seems immanent.

[VW Golf R32]

The situation is getting ugly with both Chrysler and GM starting to close hundreds of dealers.

[Road Warrior]

1100 GM dealers, but you've gotta ask, how many are going to be left? I'll bet there will be heaps left. It's probably more like rationalisation that was long overdue in the first place, the GFC just hurried it along.

[ti0350]

1100 GM dealers, but you've gotta ask, how many are going to be left? I'll bet there will be heaps left. It's probably more like rationalisation that was long overdue in the first place, the GFC just hurried it along.

Robert Snell / The Detroit News
Detroit -- About 1,100 underperforming General Motors Corp. dealers started receiving notices today that their franchises will be eliminated.
The moves are part of GM's plan to cut its U.S. dealership ranks by about 40 percent from 5,969 to 3,600 by next year, a deeper and quicker cut than what was included in a Feb. 17 plan rejected by President Obama's autos task force.
GM will shed about 500 additional dealerships by eliminating the Saab, Hummer and Saturn brands and another 400 to 500 dealers might be consolidated with other franchises.
And GM expects 400 to 600 dealerships to terminate the franchises voluntarily based on the struggling sales environment and economy. As part of the cuts, GM will buy back inventory, signage and parts.
"This is not something we did without a lot of deliberation," Mark LaNeve, GM vice president of sales service and marketing, told reporters today. "This leadership team had no choice. It's painful for dealers but it will be good for the remaining dealers and our business long-term."

GM, operating thanks to $15.4 billion in loans, is working to cut deals with all stakeholders and is racing to trim workers, brands, plants and dealerships in hopes of qualifying for billions in additional aid. It faces a June 1 restructuring deadline to reach concessions with the United Auto Workers and bondholders or could face bankruptcy, which president and Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson has said is probable.

GM did not release a list of the 1,100 dealers who received letters.

Unlike Chrysler, GM does not want to immediately terminate dealers and wants to give them until the end of 2010 to sell remaining inventory and give employees a chance to find another job and dealers to find another franchise, LaNeve said.

If GM terminated 1,100 dealerships immediately, the automaker would have to buy back about 65,000 vehicles. That would hurt residual values of cars, secondary markets and other dealers who aren't targeted for closure, LaNeve said.

The automaker's dealer plan is the same regardless of whether GM files for bankruptcy, LaNeve said.

GM is eliminating dealers by using criteria that include sales performance, capitalization, customer service, location, facility and staff.

The cuts come just a day after crosstown rival Chrysler announced it was dropping 789 of its roughly 3,200 dealerships by around June 9. Both companies have too many dealerships for too few sales and are slashing costs as they race to restructure.

GM's move to eliminate about 40 percent of its U.S. dealership network will result in 137,330 employees losing their jobs and eliminate an estimated $1.7 billion in sales tax revenue for state and local governments, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association. Plus, GM will lose an estimated $35 billion in sales revenue.

David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, recognizes domestic automakers want a successful dealer body comparable with foreign companies, especially Toyota, which has far fewer dealers. But the end result "won't be a dramatic decrease in cost."

That's because dealers are independent businesses who own their own property and buy cars. The automaker provides training, but dealerships are not cost centers like assembly plants are.

Cutting dealers is "not that necessary at one level because the cost of these dealers is not that high," Cole said.

"Most of the dealers being eliminated have franchise agreements that expire at the end of October 2010.

[VW Golf R32]

Chrysler's situation shows that resolving auto companies financial problems is not as easy as originally anticipated:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090528/AUTO01/905280378/Chrysler-fights-for-sale-to-Fiat

[Streeter]

I'm going with a Tata Nano :spew:

:rofl:

Isn't it cool how that car has a 4 speed manual gearbox? Just like a Torana A9X, but there the similarity ends.:)

One day there may be more Holden dealers in Australia than there are GM dealers in America. The question is where is Holden, and Saab, going to get their next base car from, given both use platforms which are Opel rear wheel drive and front wheel drive related respectively? Maybe Fiat will still let them use Opel platforms. I can't imagine a small Swedish company like Koenigsegg could fund a car from scratch.

[vecommo]

How the tables have turned... It seems Ford is now the worst positioned of the big 3 and looks like it may need a government bailout after all...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/13/big-3s-heaviest-debt-load-now-falls-on-ford/

[VW Golf R32]

Ouch!

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090725/AUTO01/907250320/GM-aims-to-cut-21-000-workers

[Streeter]

How the tables have turned... It seems Ford is now the worst positioned of the big 3 and looks like it may need a government bailout after all...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/13/big-3s-heaviest-debt-load-now-falls-on-ford/

Well, I wasn't expecting that. I thought Ford had things covered with the Focus and small cars in general.:bawl:

Not a Fiesta :)

http://www.geocities.com/cping3/71grabbertimes.jpg

[Streeter]

A Christmas thought: May the ghost of Pontiac lay a carbon footprint on Al Gore's ass! :)

:rofl: