Ford Australia's demise begining of the end for the Australia automotive industry

[VW Golf R32]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/17/2394681.htm?section=business

The Falcon will be dead within five years and Ford Australia not long after. People on this forum will say big deal. But it is a big deal because the demise of another local vehicle manufacturer will bring the industry below critical mass which means it isn't viable for any of the remaining players.

I still cannot believe the investigation lead by Steve Bracks recently concluded that the industry is in good shape and can continue to whether the impacts of the Button plan - namely reducing tarrifs on imported vehicles in 2010 from 10% to 5%.

At this rate there will be no car industry in Australia by 2020.

[Oldmate83]

Agree. This looks to be the beginning of the end for Falcon/ Commodore. At least we have been able to enjoy it. Everyone go do a burnout now while u still can, make it a big one.

[forcedindction]

I wonder what that would mean for V8 racing if locally built falcon goes? Seems like this has the potential to hurt a lot of industries.

[Oldmate83]

Ford and Holden have been Australian Icons for years and years. I rekon our government should get off their ar#es and prop Ford up, untill they can get on their feet again, even if that means the falcon has to go, they need to stay within the country.

[Micks]

I feel for the people here in Au who will unfortunately lose their jobs.
This is part of the greedy culture that Au has fallen into over the past years.
Mind you it's happening to Mitsubishi now possibly Ford. Both inferior products if you ask me.
Au will simply become a warehouse & produce naught. Very sad for our country...



Ford and Holden have been Australian Icons for years and years. I rekon our government should get off their ar#es and prop Ford up, untill they can get on their feet again, even if that means the falcon has to go, they need to stay within the country.

Both previous Govt's did with Mitsu to no avail, just prolonged their death.

Cheers
VYT

[Vulture]

They don't need to be propped up in any way other than reintroduce tarrifs that are in line with those from other countries. Why little Australia is hell-bent on exposing our industries to the full brunt of massive industrialised countries is beyond me - particularly when those same countries have HIGHER tariffs than us! It is pure ideological nonsense! It can only result in the destruction of our industries when the cards are so heavily stacked against us: small country with low tariffs competing with large countries with high tariffs.

[Road Warrior]

Both previous Govt's did with Mitsu to no avail, just prolonged their death.

Cheers
VYT

Can you really compare Mitsubishi with Ford AU's predicament though? The reason I ask is that Mitsi only had one locally made product line, where as Ford AU has 2, soon to be 3. Will it make a difference?

[forcedindction]

I don't think you can blame tariffs alone for this predicament. Let's also not forget the consumer here. Why should 'we' be penalized for purchasing what we believe to be a superior product. A million cars are sold here annually which far outweighs the number of people working in the automotive industry. Just playing devils advocate.

[spank]

i stated a few weeks ago in another thread that the there will be very few or no cars at all manufactured in australia within 10 years unfortunately i think im wrong it may be sooner than that. even though i have never bought a new ford or even come close to considering one, i think we need to keep them running, i think that a government with such a surplus that funds so many other useless projects and send massive amounts of money overseas for pointless schemes could help a company like ford australia turn itself back into a profitable and viable company.

[Jac001]

I think we have to be very careful with using Tax Payers dollars to prop up private enterprise.

Private business need to stand on their own two feet and be profitable. Just because a business employees a few thousand people doesn't mean it should be treated better than the average Joe that starts up his own one man business.

If you look at the profitability of the australian car industry comes down to exports and thus the australian dollar.

Holden and toyota are clear examples of how companies can survive with a good export program.

Unfortunely the increase in the australia dollar over the last 3 years has eroded that profitability.

Hopefully with the australian dollar will stay around the 70c US mark this will help local manufactures.


In regards to tarriffs i am in two minds. Personally no nation should have any sort of tarriffs, let the free market rein, the more profitable companies will survive and the rest fall.

If countries want to have tarriffs then perhaps we should mirror what they have country for country. Eg, Japanese cars will get slugged with a 20% tarriff and cars built in the EU a 10%, thai products 0% tariff due to our FTA but will slug them on registration costs...

[VW Golf R32]

In regards to tarriffs i am in two minds. Personally no nation should have any sort of tarriffs, let the free market rein, the more profitable companies will survive and the rest fall.

If countries want to have tarriffs then perhaps we should mirror what they have country for country. Eg, Japanese cars will get slugged with a 20% tarriff and cars built in the EU a 10%, thai products 0% tariff due to our FTA but will slug them on registration costs...

Most countries protect their manufacturing industries so why shouldn't we???

[Vulture]

Most countries protect their manufacturing industries so why shouldn't we???

Because we are stupid.

[michaels1v8]

Agree there.. Although I believe the reduction of Tariffs is a good thing in most situations.... When other countries arent coming to the party with lowering theres, then its just crippling our manufacturing industry lowering ours...

Some small amount of protectionism is needed for our local products to remain competitive and I reckon at least 15% for the car industry is reasonable...

[SV346]

Because we are stupid.

+1, there is so much more that australia should reflect on other contries and such that they do to us, but we go easy on them... WHY THE f..K?! And even just the base of protecting the industry, it probably only took 2 or 3 dumb dumbs in the right places to say lets bring more imports in and make more profit with no research to get it basically to the point of being decided. Reducing tariffs would only have to benefit the govt finances for a minor few years in some way and destroy other things not directly related to the people who make the decisions for them to go for it, and then in turn they wont make as much money in the long run.

[vxcalais]

thanks again Kevin 07
you have done it again :vpo:

[Jac001]

Most countries protect their manufacturing industries so why shouldn't we???

As stated, i beleive no country should have tarifs on any product.

I also state that without a free and open marketplace, then australia should mirror the tarriffs that are placed on our goods.

Its not about abandoning our tariffs, but about being balanced with other nations that we deal with.

There needs to be a push from all governemnts to reduce tarriffs everywhere because protectionism just ended up hurting the consumer and the economy in the long run.

Declaration: I work at holdens in the Elizabeth plant, and member of the AMWU.

[Evman]

thanks again Kevin 07
you have done it again :vpo:

This all started a long time before Kevid Rudd was elected :goodjob:

[HSV700]

IMO we need as a country to have Holden Commodore, Ford Falcon and the Toyota Aurion all doing well and Why the F--k the Governement aren't doing everything in their power to support them is just dump IMO.

Mr Sheen & CO just don't see that the car industry is so import to the ecconomy and their is a massive follow on to the country from every Aussy made car we make and sell.

IMO we need some small cars to be made here as well, smaller cars is where the growth is going coming from and Holden and Ford are sticking with big cars any wonder they are lossing market share to imports.

The increase in the LCT is another dumb move from Mr Sheen and CO and IMO they should leave traffics where they are and increase the LCT limit from $57k to $100k lets face it a Landcruiser, Targo, Statesman, HSV, FPV and the like are not luxury cars and the limit is so out of touch its not funny.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z262/VC110/krudd-mrsheen.jpg

[VIXEN-T]

apparently this is the replacement for the falcon in 2013

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57745&vf=2

[vecommo]

The reason I ask is that Mitsi only had one locally made product line, where as Ford AU has 2, soon to be 3.

There are rumours going around that plans for the locally built Focus have been cancelled. Apparently, in order to secure local Focus production, Ford Aus had to first meet certain targets with the FG, which so far they haven't done.

PS. IMO Mr Sheen looks a lot more like John Howard than Kevin Rudd.

[_MetalliX_]

Sure, let’s force every other car maker in Australia to raise their prices even higher with increased tariffs, thereby forcing Australians to buy Holden or Ford who keep churning out inappropriate, under-engineered shit.

People have argued that everyone else protects their car industry, why shouldn't we? It’s because our car industry is useless, it has only survived up until this point on 'Bang for your Buck' bullshit. They failed to plan for the future and are now paying the price with high fuel prices making our previously bargain V8's a money pit which many Australian families just can’t afford to run.

Ford was close with its FG series, offering a relatively economical performance engine (which they plan to discontinue) but short changed buyers with what looks like a BF with Botox.

Tariffs on imported cars are essentially a bluff. It’s like saying, "we have great cars here in Australia, and we don't need your imported stuff". When in fact all it means is Australian's who weren't weaned on Holden or Ford since birth need to fork out significantly more of their hard-earned money for a far better quality car which shouldn't cost a cent more than a Commodore or Falcon – on top of that they are taxed for working hard with the latest LCT increase, but that’s another story.

Our perception of the global car industry is so warped right now with cars priced significantly out of their market here leading many Australian's to believe the locally produced cars are a bargain.

People may argue that this is because our market isn't as wealthy or profitable as the US or European nations but the fact is we are one of the leading new-car buyers in the world having surpassed 1 million new cars in 2007 and well on our way to topping that for 2008.

If a BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, Audi RS4, Nissan GT-R and Lexus IS F cost just as much as an HSV R8 - would you still buy the HSV based on quality, price, economy and performance alone? Highly doubtful. But these are the cars which are meant to be priced alongside our “performance flagship”.

Instead the performance cars in the same price range are comprised of pocket rockets like the BMW 135i, Audi S3, Mitsubishi Evo X or Subaru WRX STi. It’s like the HSV R8 is the oversized boofhead who was held back a grade (or three) in school and has all these little kids to pick on.

Toyota is way ahead of Holden and Ford in terms of its future production direction with local hybrids and big front wheel drive cars already in development or on the market.

Meanwhile Holden showcased its "Green" Commodore fleet powered by hopes and dreams at the Australian International Motor Show to distract the public from headline news of 500 more Australian's losing their jobs and R&D roles being shifted overseas.

Don’t forget, our biggest Australian export is the Toyota Camry – not the Commodore and especially not the Falcon.

If you want to support the Australian car industry – buy a Toyota, they Go Better.

[Steve-LS2]

Sure, let’s force every other car maker in Australia to raise their prices even higher with increased tariffs, thereby forcing Australians to buy Holden or Ford who keep churning out inappropriate, under-engineered shit..

What do you mean by "every other car maker in Australia"??? There aren't any, maybe you mean all of the varied world wide manufacturers that sell their cars here?? Oh and the answer to your question is YES!! on vehicles that are in direct competition with locally produced models, but on other vehicles such as small hatch backs and big SUV's, no. There is no competition against locally built vehicles so no affect to the Jobs and the manufacturing sector.


People have argued that everyone else protects their car industry, why shouldn't we? It’s because our car industry is useless, it has only survived up until this point on 'Bang for your Buck' bullshit. They failed to plan for the future and are now paying the price with high fuel prices making our previously bargain V8's a money pit which many Australian families just can’t afford to run..

Mmmm, how is a bog stock Omega "Bang for your Buck"??? what a plainly stupid comment. "Bang for Your Buck" Vehicles include, WRX, Clubsport, SS, XR6T and thats about it. I would honestly say that sales of those vehicles would comprise less than 5% of the local market.


Ford was close with its FG series, offering a relatively economical performance engine (which they plan to discontinue) but short changed buyers with what looks like a BF with Botox..

Won't argue here.


Tariffs on imported cars are essentially a bluff. It’s like saying, "we have great cars here in Australia, and we don't need your imported stuff". When in fact all it means is Australian's who weren't weaned on Holden or Ford since birth need to fork out significantly more of their hard-earned money for a far better quality car which shouldn't cost a cent more than a Commodore or Falcon – on top of that they are taxed for working hard with the latest LCT increase, but that’s another story..

Well, seriously buddy, if it's of far better quality then the people who buy imported vehicles should be bloody happy with them. No one is forcing them to buy a Ford or Holden and what is wrong with a competitive market?? The Commodore even came down in price when the VE was released.


Our perception of the global car industry is so warped right now with cars priced significantly out of their market here leading many Australian's to believe the locally produced cars are a bargain..

It's the same all over the world, mate, seriously a Porsche 911 in Australia will cost you about 190K on road, in the States about 95K. A Commodore, say an SS will cost about 44K on road, the G8 in America 28K, don't forget you can have a porsche beating Corvette for 50K US


People may argue that this is because our market isn't as wealthy or profitable as the US or European nations but the fact is we are one of the leading new-car buyers in the world having surpassed 1 million new cars in 2007 and well on our way to topping that for 2008..

No where near going to sell 1 million new cars this year mate, not sure where you're getting your figures from but they're not accurate. Ford would not have sacked 1500 employees if that was the case.

Check this link for more info

Link (http://http://www.businessday.com.au/business/car-sales-fall-for-second-straight-month-20080922-4lo1.html)


If a BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, Audi RS4, Nissan GT-R and Lexus IS F cost just as much as an HSV R8 - would you still buy the HSV based on quality, price, economy and performance alone? Highly doubtful. But these are the cars which are meant to be priced alongside our “performance flagship”. .

No one would buy a HSV if those cars were 65K, it's not like they are cheap in Europe though, seriously buddy have you seen what most people drive around in overseas????

Friggin tin cans with wheels, you seriously need to stop trying to compare OUR flagship Performance vehicles with some of Europes leading Marques who have taken luxury vehicles and stuck powerful motors and gadgets in them to keep them on the road.

Do you think if Ferrari's, Lambo's, Maserati's, Zonda's etc were the same price as those Euro trash performance cars you mentioned above people would buy them???

Obviously not, start comparing apples with apples, not sultanas with grapes.


Instead the performance cars in the same price range are comprised of pocket rockets like the BMW 135i, Audi S3, Mitsubishi Evo X or Subaru WRX STi. It’s like the HSV R8 is the oversized boofhead who was held back a grade (or three) in school and has all these little kids to pick on..

I am 6'5", and if Subaru, Mitsubishi or Toyota made a performance car that I could fit in I may buy one one day, but they don't. So every other tall Aussie or immigrant is face with buying an expensive luxo euro barge or a Holden or Ford. I don't even fit in an Aurion, let alone a Camry (if I did fit, i wouldn't buy one anyway cos they look awful and have the worst paint colours ever.)


Toyota is way ahead of Holden and Ford in terms of its future production direction with local hybrids and big front wheel drive cars already in development or on the market. .

Big Front Wheel Drive, woo sounds like a lot of fun for people that want a car to get from A to B (boring) i like to drive my car, i'm sure many people who frequent this forum do too.

On the Hyrbid front, do you know that to offset the carbon from the production of a Prius you need to drive it almost 500,000 kms??:rofl: funny huh.


Meanwhile Holden showcased its "Green" Commodore fleet powered by hopes and dreams at the Australian International Motor Show to distract the public from headline news of 500 more Australian's losing their jobs and R&D roles being shifted overseas..

I believe it was a Chevy Volt and some E85 powered vehicles, hardly hopes and dreams.


Don’t forget, our biggest Australian export is the Toyota Camry – not the Commodore and especially not the Falcon..

I thought it was wool and iron ore? Maybe Bauxite, tin, copper and gold. Oh you meant cars. Who cares?? The international market will never support our manufacturing sector by itself, it merely supplements it.

Buy Australian made, not internationally owned. You may say that Holden is owned by GM and Ford is owned by FMC in the US, but Toyota is far less Australian than Ford and Holden


If you want to support the Australian car industry – buy a Toyota, they Go Better.

I haven't seen a Toyota go better than my SS so when they do i will buy one.

[Road Warrior]

Actually while I think about it, now that someone else has brought KRudd into the discussion, anyone else remember him saying before the election (a number of times) that "I don't want to be Prime Minister of a country that doesn't make anything"

Can't remember whether it was in regard to Ford or when Mitsubishi was in its death throes, but now would be a good time to back his pre-election statement with some sort of positive moves to protect the local industry!

[HSV700]

Actually while I think about it, now that someone else has brought KRudd into the discussion, anyone else remember him saying before the election (a number of times) that "I don't want to be Prime Minister of a country that doesn't make anything"

Can't remember whether it was in regard to Ford or when Mitsubishi was in its death throes, but now would be a good time to back his pre-election statement with some sort of positive moves to protect the local industry!

Mr Sheen want be the PM for long IMO.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z262/VC110/krudd-mrsheen.jpg

[mmciau]

the biggest danger for Australia is the demise of the manufacturing base.

If the likes of Holden and Ford are shutdown, then the massive danger arises if a conflict blew up.

Holden and Ford have a capacity to go on a 'war footing'

During the WWII, Holden and Ford were making munitions.

When Australia National (Railway) was 'privatised' in the mid 1990's, the new 'owners' such as EDI-Clyde, Genesee and Wyoming Railway went through the Islington and Port Augusta Workshops and stripped out ALL the heavy capital equipment for manufacturing locomotives, etc.

That same type of equipment was the basis for heavy munitions in WWII such as guns, tanks, transport, ships, etc.

That's where the danger arises for Australia - we may not have the capital equipment to make weapons to defend ourselves!!

Mike

[Evman]

the biggest danger for Australia is the demise of the manufacturing base.

If the likes of Holden and Ford are shutdown, then the massive danger arises if a conflict blew up...

...That's where the danger arises for Australia - we may not have the capital equipment to make weapons to defend ourselves!!

Mike

Na, we'll just go crying to America for help :confused:

[mmciau]

Na, we'll just go crying to America for help :confused:

No oil!!!!

'So sorry Kevin, the 7th Fleet is R&Ring in Hawaii - won't be able to make it!!

George'

[sszute]

the biggest danger for Australia is the demise of the manufacturing base.

If the likes of Holden and Ford are shutdown, then the massive danger arises if a conflict blew up.

Holden and Ford have a capacity to go on a 'war footing'

During the WWII, Holden and Ford were making munitions.

When Australia National (Railway) was 'privatised' in the mid 1990's, the new 'owners' such as EDI-Clyde, Genesee and Wyoming Railway went through the Islington and Port Augusta Workshops and stripped out ALL the heavy capital equipment for manufacturing locomotives, etc.

That same type of equipment was the basis for heavy munitions in WWII such as guns, tanks, transport, ships, etc.

That's where the danger arises for Australia - we may not have the capital equipment to make weapons to defend ourselves!!

Mike

Never fear i have a couple of guns i might let you borrow one if the shit hits the fan

[BLACK 346]

the biggest danger for Australia is the demise of the manufacturing base.

If the likes of Holden and Ford are shutdown, then the massive danger arises if a conflict blew up.

Holden and Ford have a capacity to go on a 'war footing'

During the WWII, Holden and Ford were making munitions.

When Australia National (Railway) was 'privatised' in the mid 1990's, the new 'owners' such as EDI-Clyde, Genesee and Wyoming Railway went through the Islington and Port Augusta Workshops and stripped out ALL the heavy capital equipment for manufacturing locomotives, etc.

That same type of equipment was the basis for heavy munitions in WWII such as guns, tanks, transport, ships, etc.

That's where the danger arises for Australia - we may not have the capital equipment to make weapons to defend ourselves!!

Mike

Good post Mike, very good post. Lets hope it doesn't get to this
stage.

[Jag530G]

the biggest danger for Australia is the demise of the manufacturing base.

If the likes of Holden and Ford are shutdown, then the massive danger arises if a conflict blew up.

Holden and Ford have a capacity to go on a 'war footing'

During the WWII, Holden and Ford were making munitions.

When Australia National (Railway) was 'privatised' in the mid 1990's, the new 'owners' such as EDI-Clyde, Genesee and Wyoming Railway went through the Islington and Port Augusta Workshops and stripped out ALL the heavy capital equipment for manufacturing locomotives, etc.

That same type of equipment was the basis for heavy munitions in WWII such as guns, tanks, transport, ships, etc.

That's where the danger arises for Australia - we may not have the capital equipment to make weapons to defend ourselves!!

Mike


Sorry Mike but I consider this to be an almighty furphy nowadays.

Car factories nowadays are simply component assembliers, Large assemblies (eg Dash, Engine, Rear/Front Suspension etc) turn up and Holden assembles them into a car. Holden actually "makes" very little at Elizabeth. It is almost like the cars are assembled from CKD kits supplied by AIR International/ZF/ GM Powertrain etc. Consequently the factory is set up to assemply these large complex components. Any differences to a normal VE/WM causes chaos. Exhibit A for the prosecution: The W427, Holden has to be build it with an LS3 then HSV has to take it out and put in the LS7. If the Holden factory can't handle building a VE with a Dry Sumped LS7, what hope in hell does it have of building a Tank?

How many workers at the Elizabeth plant are actually trade qualified metal workers/boiler makers/(auto) electricians? nowhere near as many as 40 years ago I'll bet. The line workers are simply low skilled labour.

I'd argue that the closure of Holden's Woodville Tool Room was the last straw for a useful defence capacity, the loss of highly skilled and hard to replace (in Australia) workers. And that happened years ago.

As for actually making defence equipment, In WW2 we made very little high value equipment anyway. The only aircraft that Australia designed and flew was the CAC Boomerang and Wirraway and these were simply cannon-fodder for Japanese Mitsubishi Zero's. CAC's (Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, jointly founded by Sir Essington Lewis of BHP and Sir Laurence Hartnett of General Motors - Holden's Ltd) only useful role (for all the hype) was the CKD assembly of P51 Mustangs and Bristol Beaufighters during the war. I would argue that this was superflourous, we could have easily imported the P51 and Bristol Beaufighter fully built up, like we did the Curtiss P40, B-24 Liberator, MK V Spitfire and Lockheed Hudson.

As for ships the vast majority of our Navy at the time were imported British ships, even long after the war. We only ever built small patrol boat scale ships. It has only been in recent decades that we have been biulding the Collins Class Subs and ANZAC frigates in Australia, and it has nothing to do with strategic necessity, it has simply been about propping up marginal seats in Adelaide and Melbourne - both sides of politics are guilty of this. Importing Collins Class subs from Sweden, where they were designed, would have been far cheaper than the disaster that the project was in terms of cost and duration done in Australia. Nearly every f*cked up defence project is caused by Australia trying to build something here, slightly differently, than if we simply imported the equipment, as is, from overseas.

A fundamental problem for both Holden and Ford is that when people start driving smaller cars (Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla etc) they realise they don't ACTUALLY need a large car (most cars get around with 1 person in them), so even if petrol drops below $1.00 per litre, Falcon/Commodore Sales aren't going to increase massively. Families have turned to SUV's/CUV's, Governments have started buying 4 Cyl Camrys realising they don't need to pay for the fuel consumption of a 6 Cyl Falcon or Commodore. Even the police in Brisbane are using Camry's as General duties cars in the city.

I grew up in Shepparton. Up until the mid 80's the better off farmers would cruise around in Ford Fairlanes, and if they were even better off, a Merc SEL380/560. By the early 90's these same farmers were buying Landcruiser Sahara's. That's the demise of the Ford Fairlane in a sentence. If Ford had bought out the Territory 20 years ago with a Fairlane/LTD spec interior they would have kept this market. But of course they didn't, 4WD's only had 5% import tariffs and at the time passenger car tariffs were circa 40%, Ford stayed in the "sheltered workshop" AKA the soft option and as a consequence they have now lost their biggest profit margin car, the Fairlane/LTD.

As for the idea of having "mirror image" tariffs, high tariffs shaft us, irrespective of what others do. This is through higher costs and in-efficient business practices. France, Germany, Japan and Italy have high import tariffs and their economies are stuffed, and have been for years.

Think of it this way, low tariffs have given us the VE Commodore, compare it to the HQ Kingswood, when tariffs were at their peak. A VE is far more competative on a global stage now, then what a HQ was in the early 70's.

Cheers, Matthew

[VW Golf R32]

The manufacturing industry is vital to the health of a countries economy. The G8 all have strong industries. To lose the automotive industry would the first step towards Australia becoming a third world type economy.

[Jac001]

The manufacturing industry is vital to the health of a countries economy. The G8 all have strong industries. To lose the automotive industry would the first step towards Australia becoming a third world type economy.

The Auto industry is also the largest private contributer to R&D in australia.

[Jag530G]

The Auto industry is also the largest private contributer to R&D in australia.

Yes it is, but we don't get bang for our buck from government handouts to the motor industry, how many of our handouts have actually given us more R+D spending? Handouts to the motor industry are more about politicians practising "Bogan-nomics", being able to say to the voters that they have created more factory jobs. This whilst ignoring the fact that these factory jobs are low education level, low paid, low skilled and disposable, whilst the high education level, high skill, high paid design/engineering jobs are still in Detroit and Tokyo. I'll give you 2 classic examples this:

1. The Holden HFV6. I can remember when it was announced that this engine was being assembled in Australia, Steve Bracks, the Victorian premier gave GM $60 Million to assemble the engine here, and he spoke of all the extra manufacturing jobs it would create. Too bad these were just line worker jobs, low paid, low skilled and disposable. The HFV6 engine had already been designed in Detroit, so that's where the highly educated designers and engineers were, ie: the high skill, high wage jobs were in America, we got the dross. GM simply went shopping around the world looking for the biggest handout it could get and Steve Bracks was the chump who came up trumps. Remember, the HFV6 is also made in Canada, at the moment there is enough demand to justify 2 factories. What about the future if GM goes into Chapter 11 bankruptcy? Our tax dollars got p*ised against the wall.

2. The Toyota Camry Hybrid. The Rudd government offers the $500 Million Green Car Initiative. The first use of this money is for $75 Million to be given to Toyota to biuld Camry Hybrids. Again, too bad these cars have already been designed in Tokyo and all Australia will get for it's $75M will be some boxes containing hybrid components marked "Made In Japan". Again, the highly paid Designers and Engineers who developed the Hybrid Camry are in Tokyo, all we'll get is a couple of low paid/low skilled blokes unpacking boxes in Altona. There is absolutely no R&D benefit out of this for Australia.

The rest of the Green car fund will get spent on things which already exist and have been designed elsewhere. The fund is simply a handout.

Cheers, Matthew

[Vulture]

In regards to tarriffs i am in two minds. Personally no nation should have any sort of tarriffs, let the free market rein, the more profitable companies will survive and the rest fall.

If countries want to have tarriffs then perhaps we should mirror what they have country for country.

I agree with this. The problem we have is that we act like large, strong country when we are not. It is a strange kind of idealogical bent that sees us reducing tarrifs further and faster than countries with a huge manufacturing base and lower costs.


Agree there.. Although I believe the reduction of Tariffs is a good thing in most situations.... When other countries arent coming to the party with lowering theres, then its just crippling our manufacturing industry lowering ours...

Some small amount of protectionism is needed for our local products to remain competitive and I reckon at least 15% for the car industry is reasonable...

Well said.

[Jac001]

Yes it is, but we don't get bang for our buck from government handouts to the motor industry,

...snip..


The whole ASIC Government handout as it stands right now at $5B over 15 years 2000 - 2015. Plus $1B green car fund.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/content/content.cfm?ObjectID=8ABD6529-FB8F-4DF4-A9F0FFCAC0506043&L2Parent=AEB901E5-7CB8-4143-A3BF33B2423F9DA6&L3Parent=75AFC6C0-A9D9-4953-8B4C50DE1EA042DB

from 2000/1 to 2005/6 the Automotive industry has spent almost $3B on R&D (see very last table)

http://www.innovation.gov.au/Industry/Automotive/Documents/Key%20Automotive%20Statistics%202007.pdf

You can see the the money pumped into R&D is comparable to the money it gets in hand outs.

This R&D is being done by engineers and sceintists etc which are clearly not deadbeat low wage/low skill jobs.

In relation to creating factory job, you seem to have ignored that factories don't run themselves. You need managers, engineers, IT support, trades, trainers, accountants and hr/legal teams, safety specialists/ ergonomists, and at larger facilities like the elizabeth plant a medical centre employing nurses and doctors. Obviosuly you don't need thousands of these but you do need some.

You also chose to ignore that for a little while GM centre of worldwide RWD development happened in Pt Melbourne. It is unfortunate thats GM financal circumstances lead to these projects being scaled back.

In regards to the 2 examples you pointed out, neither of those handouts were for R&D projects, nor where they claimed to be.

Governments give handout to lots of companies looking for somewhere to settle, not just the automotive industry. There is always the risk that if these companies could go broke then that investment (handout) is wasted.

If you read my previous posts you will see that i support an industry that can stand profitably on its own two feet without government support or protection.