Pontiac G8 to be dropped after single product cycle

[mutual_master]

http://www.motorauthority.com/pontiac-g8-to-be-cut-after-single-product-cycle.html

Didnt see this coming but GM is in big trouble so I wouldnt be surprised.

[QIKMIK]

Realistically that's not good news for Commodore either. At least we have the Middle East market to support our homegrown stuff. I thought the Yanks would have loved them. Good looking car with a heap of grunt that handled as well. Maybe they didn't like the fact that it went around corners. I wonder if another GM brand in the States will pick it up if Pontiac is downsized.

Mick

[FlatfootV8]

They must be nuts to drop it considering its one of the best handling RWD sedans they have in their line up... I am not excluding the Cadillac of course but you know what I mean..

[Ghia351]

Realistically that's not good news for Commodore either. At least we have the Middle East market to support our homegrown stuff. I thought the Yanks would have loved them. Good looking car with a heap of grunt that handled as well. Maybe they didn't like the fact that it went around corners. I wonder if another GM brand in the States will pick it up if Pontiac is downsized.

MickWould the mid-east market soak up enough sales to replace any "still rumoured" loss of US sales in 5 years time?...and we are talking 5 years from now where anything can happen. Probably not so I think a second product line for Holden is even more important than ever just to keep plant production at a viable level.

[Excellent]

Doesn't mean that Holden won't sell cars (Commodores) to GM. They're just saying Pontiac won't have the G8. :eyes:

[Holden Man]

Winding Road just voted it in their Top Ten US super sedans of all time !

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/G8.jpg

And look the previous chasis made it in there too!
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/Catera.jpg

5 years is a while away / I just hope GM is not betting everything on the Volt.

Things change quickly - It was only a few months ago that fuel was near $150 a barrel, now it's back under $70

[OPTIMUS]

Winding Road just voted it in their Top Ten US super sedans of all time !

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/G8.jpg

And look the previous chasis made it in there too!
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/Catera.jpg

5 years is a while away / I just hope GM is not betting everything on the Volt.

Things change quickly - It was only a few months ago that fuel was near $150 a barrel, now it's back under $70


But the price at the bowsers still the same..

[bwhinnen]

But the price at the bowsers still the same..

Not in the US it isn't, some places are back down under $3 a gallon...

[chevypower]

2.89 here today, wouldn't surprise me if it's 2.79 tomorrow. The thing is, if people are going to buy a V8, they will buy a pickup truck or an SUV. My dad is in Melbourne, has a WK Caprice, gets 14L per 100km, I am getting the same economy with a Silverado V8 (16-18mpg). I have seen about 2 or 3 Pontiac GTOs on the road since launch. I see a few Chargers, but not too many. The new 390HP Dodge Ram with the Hemi V8 gets 20mpg. The Charger with the same engine gets 22mpg (not really worth downsizing for). I think if people are going to let go of their trucks and SUVs for fuel economy, they want more than just a couple mpg savings. Of course there is the snow issue too, alot of people i talk to don't want to drive a RWD in the snow. I don't think anyone would doubt the Commodore is a fine car, but when it comes down to talking with your wallet, there's just so much you can buy out there, and maybe GM fans who want a V8 sports car are waiting for the Camaro?

[Holden Man]

I didn't realize those big trucks are comparable on fuel usage to a V8 sedan !

[Steve-LS2]

2.89 here today, wouldn't surprise me if it's 2.79 tomorrow. The thing is, if people are going to buy a V8, they will buy a pickup truck or an SUV. My dad is in Melbourne, has a WK Caprice, gets 14L per 100km, I am getting the same economy with a Silverado V8 (16-18mpg). I have seen about 2 or 3 Pontiac GTOs on the road since launch. I see a few Chargers, but not too many. The new 390HP Dodge Ram with the Hemi V8 gets 20mpg. The Charger with the same engine gets 22mpg (not really worth downsizing for). I think if people are going to let go of their trucks and SUVs for fuel economy, they want more than just a couple mpg savings. Of course there is the snow issue too, alot of people i talk to don't want to drive a RWD in the snow. I don't think anyone would doubt the Commodore is a fine car, but when it comes down to talking with your wallet, there's just so much you can buy out there, and maybe GM fans who want a V8 sports car are waiting for the Camaro?

16 MPG is about 17.5 L/100Kms which is a lot different to 14L/100Kms.

Sorry Fuel Consumption on a vehicle that wieghs 4000 pounds and is 4x4 or all wheel drive will no way get near a smaller RWD sedan wieghing far less and driving 2 less wheels.

[VzSS06]

Ive got to say the G8 looks absolutely gorgeous!!!

[chevypower]

16 MPG is about 17.5 L/100Kms which is a lot different to 14L/100Kms.

Sorry Fuel Consumption on a vehicle that wieghs 4000 pounds and is 4x4 or all wheel drive will no way get near a smaller RWD sedan wieghing far less and driving 2 less wheels.

I am getting a good honest average of 16.7mpg which is 14.2L/100km. I have a 25 gallon tank, i get just over 400 miles per tank, i get 450 if its more freeway driving. - my dad's WK Caprice 5.7 gets about 14-14.5L/100km, my sister-in-laws AU Fairmont Ghia 6 cyl gets about 14L per 100. You can be as sorry as you like, the proof is in the pudding. BTW the Silverado only drives two wheels when not engaged in 4x4.

[BlownLS7]

I am getting a good honest average of 16.7mpg which is 14.2L/100km. I have a 25 gallon tank, i get just over 400 miles per tank, i get 450 if its more freeway driving. - my dad's WK Caprice 5.7 gets about 14-14.5L/100km, my sister-in-laws AU Fairmont Ghia 6 cyl gets about 14L per 100. You can be as sorry as you like, the proof is in the pudding. BTW the Silverado only drives two wheels when not engaged in 4x4.


we are talking an imperial gallon which is 3.8 lts? not 4.5 like it is here in OZ

chev you are right, if calculating in USA gallons.

and steve is right if calculating in oz

cheers

[CraigH]

I think the issue is more that GM has LIMITED funds to do any new cars so it will put what it has on the ones that will allow it to meet CAFE and have the biggest sealer/GM margins.

For a company that

- had to formally state it would not be going into chapter 11 a week back
- had its share value dropped to US $3 billion a week back
- got a financial rateing at close to junk bond value

I think it would be a bit like decisions on the bridge of the Titanic.

Short tem is all you care about.

[V-Car]

Maybe the real answer why Pontiac wont be getting another G8 in 5 years time, is that there may not be a Commodore to supply them in 5 years time!

Just a possibility, and who's not to say that if the Falcon doesnt continue here in RWD form, or even be built here, that the same wont happen to the Commodore.

Alot can happen in the meantime.
There may not have been a VE if Holden didnt have the middle east export market.

GM is moving alot of its design and engineering back to Detroit, and the way things are going, they will be wanting to consolidate as many platforms as they can to save costs.
Our next 'Holden' may be a badge engineered Chevy Impala etc.

Who would have thought in the mid 70's that the traditional Holden like the HZ and WB would be replaced by a smaller German Opel Commodore?

[Marco]

The article is all rumour and speculation, so let's not get carried away. IMHO if the G8 continues to make money for GM, then GM will continue to sell it - why wouldn't they?

[Dacious]

GM already announced why this was - at one stage they were to build a full stable of GM cars, including the production GTO/Monaro version of the Coupe60, Impala, G8 and a number of other vehicles on the same lines as the Camaro, in Oshawa, Canada. And all based off 'Zeta' which is what they call the VE Commodore chassis.

What has caused the rethink is the oil crisis, GM's parlous financial state made worse with the global economic mess and the mediocre reception of the GTO and G8. That is a story unto itself, and far more about how Pontiac is too damaged a brand - Americans will buy Nissan, Lexus or Acura (upmarket Honda) but won't pay resonable dollars for a decent Pontiac and the hardcore faithful fully expect to get major discounts.

Plus the G8 V6, only available as a 5-speed auto, is not especially desired as it isn't as economical or even as quick as a Camry V6, with the G8 GT (SS Commodore) being desired but too expensive and considered heavy on juice for many prospective customers. G8 might not last five years, because there's a good chance Pontiac might get killed off, itself. Plus from the Pontiac Firebird and GTO heads, resentment about being an import and non-invented-here syndrome is in full flight, even about the G8 which they see as stopping them getting a 'Firebird' out of Camaro. They won't pay $30K for any Pontiac, but especially not one from Australia.it doesn't help to point out the Camaro is being 'imported' from a Commonwealth country with the same Queen either - Canadians apparently count as 'Claytons' yanks.

Forget fullsize SUVs and trucks. GM just killed off project Cxx which is the fullsize Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban replacement platform. That means sometime after 2010 there will be no monster SUVs.

CAFE, which for the first time will apply to 'trucks' is what is killing SUVs and RWD performance cars. Subaru is even saying they will drop AWD from all models because of it. At present, makers pay a 'gas-guzzler' tax at a flat fee they pass on to consumers like the auto GTO got a $650 slug IIRC.

In future, if the cars don't make the 30mpg average, not only does the consumer pay a sliding scale penalty, but the carmaker is also fined.

And as a Pontiac G8 and a Ford Taurus are roughly analogous for size, power, internal space, the Taurus as a FWD barge weighs 100-150lb less. And engine-engine is considered likely to get marginally better economy. Plus the Big 3 are now victims of their own hype. They went FWD in response to the success of Japanese vehicles and the last oil crisis for mainstream cars. They marketed to Americans that in poor traction like snow FWD=good, RWD=bad and Americans have now bought it. A lot of people in snowbound states believe as a core truth that RWD cars wrap themselves around trees when it snows, even with 50:50 weight distribution, stability control and ABS with modern highly capable chassis. So the Chrysler 300, CTS and even things like the BMW 335 are available AWD.

Impala at present is a warmed over 20-year old FWD chassis sold to fleets and the economy-conscoius and actually selling no 2 in the US after the Camry. In order to make it RWD will boost purchase price, fight against fuel economy and snow-driving perceptions and almost certainly cost it a substantial part of it's market, even if the ones they do sell sell for more.

If the G8 continues to sell at current rate, which is 20,000 per annum (and GM nominated 20-30K) per year they will no doubt continue to take it. When GM lets Holden put the DI motor and six-speed auto it should pick up sales in the V6 model, and the Ute is an unknown. Who knows the wagon may still make it there too.

But Holden isn't likely to make another car quite as large to replace the current Commodore early next decade, and Pontiac may not be around to sell it, anyhow.

The other thing is, and it's a ggod thing: we might get a Torana/Commodorette built on the same lines and eventually replacing the Commodore except Commercials; GM has taken 'Alpha' back inhouse, which means probably they'll feck it up right and proper (oh yeah, we forgot to make it RHD - d'oh!) and it appears Holden may just go off an develop the 'small car' they disclosed to the unions.

No reason why a Camry-szied car, especially if optimised around a V6, couldn't clunk in at a competitive weight of 1600kg. There may be no LSx motors in future, either, as they won't keep passing ADR emissions without development and GM is likely to severely curtail that - even the Germans are saying maybe no more big V8s after 2010. If the carmakers don't drop them governments might force the issue through legislation. Yo ualready pay for C02 emissions in England and other countries.

Holden and Ford already got exemptions for 2008 on the L76/LS3 and Ford six and eight. That doesn't last. Next year in Europe they are going to Euro V. Can't see the V8 passing that when it makes it here.

[LSavvy]

Daewoo Commodore anyone?

[CharlieDontSurf]

No problem with fuel prices in the middle east. It will always be cheap ragardless of world price and the like big cars. I think that market is a bit insulated from whats going on around the world

[VzSS06]

Daewoo Commodore anyone?

Wash your mouth out :spew:

[mitchtj]

It's not selling because its badged as a.... pontiac. Possibly the worst name in the entire GM range.

If it was a Caddilac it would be selling well.

[chevypower]

They already sell a Zeta-based Cadillac. CTS! It does sell well. Pontiac, GMC brands are almost certain to die soon. Mind you, i prefer the look of the Yukon over the Tahoe.
Dacious, the replacement for the GMT-900 trucks are not scrapped, they just postponed the release date to see where the market was going. Eg, it used to be all about horse power, now, more people are looking at mpg, even in a truck. People were all geared up for a boom in diesel sales - they developed the new 4.5L Duramax diesel for 2010, then diesel went up $1 more per gallon than unleaded, and suddenly diesel didn't sound so good anymore, then the trend went backwards fast. Now I think people are keeping their older trucks they normally would upgrade to a new one, and that change is also partly (if not mostly) due to the bad economy. There will always be a need for body-on-frame trucks and SUVs, I just hope they get hydrogen/electric or something in them to make sure we can always have them.

[Dacious]

They already sell a Zeta-based Cadillac. CTS! It does sell well. Pontiac, GMC brands are almost certain to die soon. Mind you, i prefer the look of the Yukon over the Tahoe.
.


From the New York Times


This was also G.M.’s flagship platform, code-named CXX, which would underpin popular models like the Escalade, Yukon and Suburban, brawny tanks that had defined the auto giant’s image for more than 15 years.

The executives killed the CXX project without a single dissenting vote. And with that, the era of the big S.U.V. was as good as dead, done in by soaring gasoline prices and consumers fleeing to smaller, more fuel-efficient cars.

Within days of its decision to abandon the CXX program, G.M. announced another round of North American plant closures, including the planned shutdown of its sprawling factory in Janesville, Wis., where the big S.U.V. was born in the early 1990s. G.M. has promised to carve an additional $10 billion of its costs in a frantic effort to preserve its dwindling cash. It’s a far cry from the glory days of S.U.V.’s, when their sales fueled fat profits for G.M. and its rivals, Chrysler and Ford.

That doesn't sound like delayed to me - it sounds like dead, as in stone.

NY Times Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/business/26jane.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin)

Product plans at present call for Sigma (CTS) to die after 2012. To potentialy be replaced by a smaller Alpha=based sedan - if they don't kill that off too. At one stage they were talking about merging Sigma and Zeta, but that seems to have passed. The large FWD DTS and STS (stretched Sigma) were supposed to merge on Zeta, but that vehicle has also been killed. Sigma is the basis of CTS, STS and SRX, a small SUV X-5 competitor and the last two of those have bombed and are dying soon.

Sigma is too expensive and too narrow for a Commodore sized family sedan , which is why Holden who did some early development on it rejected it and developed the VE chassis. It starts at $US38K - too dear for a $22K Chevvy Impala, even stripped of the gee-gwas and dumbed down.

Look to the next gen of smaller crossovers off unibody chassis - except probably FWD based like the Captiva and RAV. They'll keep making the commercial versions of the BOF trucks as long as they have buyers and gas. But Fprd's cancelled their next gen F-series, too.

[Fraser]

G8 here is far more popular then the media lets on, its more popular then the GTO was.

part of problem with the G8,

No history on the car, no resale values etc. This worries lease market, so I can lease a 2008 WRX for $280 per month a G8 would be $550 per month; C6 corvette is less then a G8 on leasing. This also affects intrest on financing, G8 has highest intrest rates.

I could lease a 335i for same price as a G8, 335i is 45k starting price.

The G8 is an impressive deal at $33k but its bought by people with cash in hand, no bank involved.

Now from what I hear in Detroit, nobody has seen an ST yet. So I can assume that isn't happening.

[Dacious]

They already sell a Zeta-based Cadillac. CTS! It does sell well. Pontiac, GMC brands are almost certain to die soon. Mind you, i prefer the look of the Yukon over the Tahoe.
Dacious, the replacement for the GMT-900 trucks are not scrapped, they just postponed the release date to see where the market was going.
.


From the New York Times


This was also G.M.’s flagship platform, code-named CXX, which would underpin popular models like the Escalade, Yukon and Suburban, brawny tanks that had defined the auto giant’s image for more than 15 years.

The executives killed the CXX project without a single dissenting vote. And with that, the era of the big S.U.V. was as good as dead, done in by soaring gasoline prices and consumers fleeing to smaller, more fuel-efficient cars.

Within days of its decision to abandon the CXX program, G.M. announced another round of North American plant closures, including the planned shutdown of its sprawling factory in Janesville, Wis., where the big S.U.V. was born in the early 1990s. G.M. has promised to carve an additional $10 billion of its costs in a frantic effort to preserve its dwindling cash. It’s a far cry from the glory days of S.U.V.’s, when their sales fueled fat profits for G.M. and its rivals, Chrysler and Ford.

That doesn't sound like delayed to me - it sounds like dead, as in stone.

NY Times Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/business/26jane.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin)

Product plans at present call for Sigma (CTS) to die after 2012. To potentialy be replaced by a smaller Alpha=based sedan - if they don't kill that off too. At one stage they were talking about merging Sigma and Zeta, but that seems to have passed. The large FWD DTS and STS (stretched Sigma) were supposed to merge on Zeta, but that vehicle has also been killed. Sigma is the basis of CTS, STS and SRX, a small SUV X-5 competitor and the last two of those have bombed and are dying soon.

Sigma is too expensive and too narrow for a Commodore sized sedan, which is why Holden who did some early development on it rejected it and developed the VE chassis. CTS starts at $US38K - too dear for a $22K Chevvy Impala, even stripped of the gee-gwas and dumbed down.

Look to the next gen of smaller crossovers off unibody chassis - except probably FWD based like the Captiva and RAV.

[mitchtj]

G8 here is far more popular then the media lets on, its more popular then the GTO was.

part of problem with the G8,

No history on the car, no resale values etc. This worries lease market, so I can lease a 2008 WRX for $280 per month a G8 would be $550 per month; C6 corvette is less then a G8 on leasing. This also affects intrest on financing, G8 has highest intrest rates.

I could lease a 335i for same price as a G8, 335i is 45k starting price.

The G8 is an impressive deal at $33k but its bought by people with cash in hand, no bank involved.

Now from what I hear in Detroit, nobody has seen an ST yet. So I can assume that isn't happening.

ST is a 2010 model, im pretty sure it will be happening.

[which12day]

Holdens plans to have a diesel in the VE in the next 18 months might change things somewhat. The 3.8 litre VM Motori diesel they are rumoured to be testing puts out 550 nm and gets the fuel economy of a four. I hope they are also looking at the 4.5 litre V8 which has a massive 700+ nm.

[chevypower]

That would be a 2.9L diesel, which is now really a GM engine. Word is the Cadillac CTS is getting the 4.5L V8 diesel also.
Dacious, if GM stopped building trucks, I think people would then go to Ford and Dodge, most articles I have read indicate that the CXX project was put off for the time being, less focus on trucks, and more on fuel-efficient cars. I still haven't ready anything saying there will definitely be no more trucks and SUVs. They haven't said there will be no update to the GMT-900, and they haven't said they will stop making the 900. With the economy picking up now, and oil prices coming down, I think we will see sales pick up. Surely, they can't be so reactive to make long-term decisions from a short term decline in sales, which can be applied to the whole car industry, not specifically that segment.

[Dacious]

US economy picking up? What news are you reading - 'Fox Fair and Balanced'?


A story in Sunday's New York Times quotes GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz, head of product development, as saying: "It would have been very difficult in today's environment to spend a couple of billion dollars to do a replacement."

The next-generation Tahoe and Suburban, along with successors to the Yukon and Escalade, were slated to begin arriving in 2011 as 2012 models, supplier sources told Inside Line. GM originally had earmarked $2 billion to completely redesign the big SUVs and retool its assembly plants to build them.

Waggoner and Lutz have both comfirmed CXX is dead - read the NYT article in full. Today media in America is reporting Suburban and Escalade are likely to move to the Lambda platform, which is FWD/AWD unibody used for things like the Traverse and Buick Enclave.

The full truck versions will stay on GMT900 for professional haullage until around 2014 but the rest will be downsized and downweighted - if they and GM live that long.

Oil prices are falling due to the fact that the US and England are about to be officially in recession and the arse has fallen out of demand and OPEC is cutting oil production to hold it up. They haven't found any more or anything.

Even if oil prices do fall, soon there will be no-one buying trucks, because no-one in the US will loan you money to buy them.

Maybe the US might get a Zeta Denali pickup as per the concept, as the engineering etc is mostly done, and they now have a half-empty plant to build it..... Wouldn't hold your breath for anything new, though.

[chevypower]

I just happen to be here, and notice the USD is picking up against the Euro, GBP, Aussie dollar and commodities such as oil, the housing market has had it's biggest boom in recent history. So if that's not the economy picking up, it's a pretty good substitute! While, I have driven the Acadia, and as a fine car as it is, and roomy, sporty etc, it is no "replacement" for the Tahoe, so GM are idiots if they drop the Tahoe all together. I could understand them consolidating the Tahoe/Suburban in to an in-between. I had a look at the 09 Ram Laramie today... very nice.

[Carver3]

Winding Road just voted it in their Top Ten US super sedans of all time !

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/HoldenMan_2007/G8.jpg


Is it just me, or does that bonnet really have air slots....

And this car is made on the VE chassis right?

[benniemc]

Is it just me, or does that bonnet really have air slots....

And this car is made on the VE chassis right?

It is a VE, just with a different front, Left hand drive, and an extra few Pontiac bits, like the US GTO/Monaro deal.

I'm pretty sure you can get a G8 kit for you VE in Australia now too!

[Wonky]

Is it just me, or does that bonnet really have air slots....

And this car is made on the VE chassis right?

Has been discussed before on here. I'd love that bonnet on mine but it won't fit without either a) Pontiac grille or b) modification. :(

[John Wilson]

The Yanks do love this car! It's the most exciting car I've owned in years. John (Yankee) Wilson http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/jw1954/jw1954-2/JW1954-3/DSC_2428.jpg

[Fnomna]

Love the G8 front end (and the Nikon D3!).

[Tyre biter]

Has been discussed before on here. I'd love that bonnet on mine but it won't fit without either a) Pontiac grille or b) modification. :(

On the issue of changing over to the Pontiac grille/front bumper (plan a), the thing I see from the image posted by John Wilson is that there is nowhere to put a front rego plate as required in Australia... so I guess it's plan (b) - modify the Pontiac bonnet to fit the VE bumper.

Cheers, TB

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

so whats wrong with the oz version modified VE one ?

[mickeyVX350]

still dislike the front!!!

[Tyre biter]

so whats wrong with the oz version modified VE one ?

Nothing, just that I like the Pontiac scoops more - for me, they look better.

Cheers, TB