VE on E85?

[`redoctober]

Just been looking around for an answer but haven't quite found a solid one. But a couple of people have been saying that E85 will work in a VE Commodore without any tuning, fuel line, or injector changes.. And also, some people haven't.

What is the story here, can the VE run E85? I'd love to try it out, because my car says it's E10 capable, but I want to try the higher RON stuff :D

Cheers,
-Rob.

[Devil CV8]

my car says it's E10 capable,
there's your answer. If the VE was E85 compatable there would be something written in the handbook.

[planetdavo]

Holden have been saying for a little while that an E85 suitable VE is COMING.
Translation is that it's not here YET. Brazil export cars are suitable, and that is basically what we will be getting, at least on the V6's.

[Stormin]

Holden have been saying for a little while that an E85 suitable VE is COMING.
Translation is that it's not here YET. Brazil export cars are suitable, and that is basically what we will be getting, at least on the V6's.

The Brazilian export cars are suitable for E24, not E85.

[planetdavo]

The Brazilian export cars are suitable for E24, not E85.
I stand corrected. Might have been in a bit too much of a holiday mode! :yup:
I will now update my post...
Holden will be adding the technology that SAAB uses for it's E85 compatible BioPower models, another GM affiliate.
Current Commodore models are only suitable for E10, or bye bye warranty.

[SVNLTR]

where u going to get e85 from?

[`redoctober]

where u going to get e85 from?

According to another member they're selling E85 at the United in Hoppers, if my car would accept it I would have gladly made the drive!

Too bad though :(

[xrcuta]

yes is available at United Petrol Station in hoppers crossing. got 80 ltrs of the stuff in 4 big 20 ltr jerry cans and dropped it off to my tuner today.

cheers

[KCB50L]

There's a united at rozzelle in sydney selling it to, I'm thinking of getting 120 litres of it and having a play with the tune in my VZ.

[Aussie Pete]

I have run my VE SS-V on E85 for a couple of tanks now. No problems except noticeably less power at high throttle. But it works as if there is no difference in normal low throttle city driving. I would love to have a flexfuel off the shelf tuner to make the changes on the fly. If I remember right diablo or someone does such kits in the states - if they could market it here for say $400 I'd be up for it. But go much higher in cost and the economics don't look attractive.

[SS Enforcer]

I have run my VE SS-V on E85 for a couple of tanks now. No problems except noticeably less power at high throttle. But it works as if there is no difference in normal low throttle city driving. I would love to have a flexfuel off the shelf tuner to make the changes on the fly. If I remember right diablo or someone does such kits in the states - if they could market it here for say $400 I'd be up for it. But go much higher in cost and the economics don't look attractive.

You do have your car tuned to run on E85 don't you ? If it isn't no wonder it's making less power up high as it's dangerously lean and probably pulled lots of timing due to it's pinging it's tits off.

cheers

[macca_779]

I have run my VE SS-V on E85 for a couple of tanks now. No problems except noticeably less power at high throttle. But it works as if there is no difference in normal low throttle city driving. I would love to have a flexfuel off the shelf tuner to make the changes on the fly. If I remember right diablo or someone does such kits in the states - if they could market it here for say $400 I'd be up for it. But go much higher in cost and the economics don't look attractive.


I hope u aren't running e85 without a custom tune. If you are kiss your motor goodbuy in the not to distant future

FYI Tuners that use EFI LIVE. Have a custom os that enables us to force the flex fuel tbles on in the VE's. But it's an on off deal with no inbetween situation. Basically the modified os has enabled us to use the flex fuel input pin on the ECM and when u apply 12v to it will switch over. APS Frankston has been using this feature LI LPG cars.

[LuisS]

As Macca stated, and to the best of my knowledge there is no hardware / sensors fitted (at the moment) on the VE Commodores that switches to the E85 tables on the E38 ecu.

Sure, some of the software and settings are there - just no sensors to enable it..!.....a bit like AFM on some cars.

We use a custom operating system which lets us turn these tables on manually.



My advice - get it tuned , or don't do it !

[SHANESVZSS]

i am considdering going down the same path , would the injectors need to be changed? or is that only for high hp cars?

[macca_779]

i am considdering going down the same path , would the injectors need to be changed? or is that only for high hp cars?

The GEN IV's have enough fuel system headroom to cope with it I would think. But I've never done one to know for sure.

[neaty383]

Guys go and checkout HPF's OzGarage site - they have an episode that explains all the ins and outs of different fuel blends. They do a good job of explaining the differences, testing about 7 different fuel types on a mule car on dyno, etc.

Very good stuff.

Oh, and other than changing timing, tune, etc, no engine modifications were required (AFAIR) to support 7 different fuels.

[Aussie Pete]

Regarding having to tune the way I see it when I run E85 I drive normally - i.e. very light throttle to and from work. I assumed because it was light throttle and load the ECU sees the lean mixture and richens it up. Makes sense because fuel usage goes up. I never use high throttle. Benefit? Today 14Jan2010 I filled up with E85 at 99.7c when E10 was 133.9 and 95 octane was 145.9 (I was too scared to see what Ultimate or similar was!) No pinging no issues. Having said that I generally run a mix of E85 and BP Ultimate. No issues at any time. Remember the octane rating of E85 is quite high. If a Flexfuel tune was available for reasonable dollars I'd be one of the first to get it done.

[steve_t]

Do you have any cold start issues on E85?
Consumption also goes up with ethanol because it contains less energy per litre

[Louie_D]

Just needs one little rev on start up and its not to bad after that, ive got a switchable tune on mine and there isnt much difference between bp ultimate and E85 as far as fuel consumption goes, i know its suppose to burn around 30% quicker but i get around the same ks out of both (i think the Petrol tunes a little rich though). Goes much better on E85 thats for sure especially down low torque. By the way, E85 is now available at fuel zone in Cheltenham across the road from southland.

[macca_779]

Regarding having to tune the way I see it when I run E85 I drive normally - i.e. very light throttle to and from work. I assumed because it was light throttle and load the ECU sees the lean mixture and richens it up. Makes sense because fuel usage goes up. I never use high throttle. Benefit? Today 14Jan2010 I filled up with E85 at 99.7c when E10 was 133.9 and 95 octane was 145.9 (I was too scared to see what Ultimate or similar was!) No pinging no issues. Having said that I generally run a mix of E85 and BP Ultimate. No issues at any time. Remember the octane rating of E85 is quite high. If a Flexfuel tune was available for reasonable dollars I'd be one of the first to get it done.

You assume incorrectly. LTFT's only have so much scope. Plus your ignition timing isn't suited to E85. Although since your no doubt running lean it may be low enough to prevent preignition. But I'll bet those cylinders are getting mighty warm with the higher than optimal AFR ratios

[SS Enforcer]

Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence
Ratio Lambda
Gasoline stoichiometric 14.7 0.068 1 1
Gasoline max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
Gasoline max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900
E10 stoichiometric 14.0 - 14.1 ? ?
E85 stoichiometric 9.765 0.10235 1 1
E85 max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
E85 max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673
E100 stoichiometric 9.0078 0.111 1 1
E100 max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
E100 max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

Your going to stuff your motor running e85 unless you get it tuned to run on that fuel period. It's going to burn a hole in the piston or an exhaust valve or worse. The few cents you saved are going to look tiny compared to the $6K for a new motor.

The problem is that the cylinder temps will be very high as your car will be keeping the mixture at stoich 14.7:1 Stoich for E85 is 9.765:1 . Your car will be maintaining the correct mixture for regular fuel and not tipping more fuel into it which will be causing high cyl temps . As Macca said the fuel trims are only there to make small adjustments not ones of up to 60%.

cheers

[macca_779]

SSEnforcer it won't be keeping the afr at 14.7 remember the ecu doesn't measure afr, only lambda. It will try and go for lambda 1 in closed loop with the e85 but it won't get there without the scope in the trims. I can't say exactly how much extra fuel it could throw in but I doubt it would get below 11:1

[gmh308]

Regarding having to tune the way I see it when I run E85 I drive normally - i.e. very light throttle to and from work. I assumed because it was light throttle and load the ECU sees the lean mixture and richens it up. Makes sense because fuel usage goes up. I never use high throttle. Benefit? Today 14Jan2010 I filled up with E85 at 99.7c when E10 was 133.9 and 95 octane was 145.9 (I was too scared to see what Ultimate or similar was!) No pinging no issues. Having said that I generally run a mix of E85 and BP Ultimate. No issues at any time. Remember the octane rating of E85 is quite high. If a Flexfuel tune was available for reasonable dollars I'd be one of the first to get it done.

Kudos for trying E85 out mate, but a very big risk you are taking there Aussie Pete!

While the car will still run with E85 in the tank, and appear to run perfectly, it generally tops out the trims.

Pure E85 in the tank needs 50%+ more fuel to be getting into the cylinders to run correctly.

The max the Long Term trims will adjust standard is 25%. Short term trims added to this might get you towards 50%, (they generally max at 25% too) but normally the ECM will pop a "Fuel Trim System Lean" DTC if you get into power enrichment when the O2 sensors see it stay lean too long when the trims are topped out.

A VE ECM can be setup/retuned to run whatever mix of E85 anyone wants, but a stock ECM that is not in flex fuel mode is putting you on the edge.

Cheers.

[steve_t]

So would the stock ECM then run a 50:50 mix of E85 and PULP relatively easily?

[LuisS]

While the car will still run with E85 in the tank, and appear to run perfectly, it generally tops out the trims.

Pure E85 in the tank needs 50%+ more fuel to be getting into the cylinders to run correctly.

The max the Long Term trims will adjust standard is 25%. Short term trims added to this might get you towards 50%, (they generally max at 25% too) but normally the ECM will pop a "Fuel Trim System Lean" DTC if you get into power enrichment when the O2 sensors see it stay lean too long when the trims are topped out.

A VE ECM can be setup/retuned to run whatever mix of E85 anyone wants, but a stock ECM that is not in flex fuel mode is putting you on the edge.

Cheers.

GMH 308 is Spot on - you only need look at the difference in the "commanded" afr's for PULP compared to what's in the E85 table..

If I get a chance , I'll copy and paste up a pic

[SS Enforcer]

SSEnforcer it won't be keeping the afr at 14.7 remember the ecu doesn't measure afr, only lambda. It will try and go for lambda 1 in closed loop with the e85 but it won't get there without the scope in the trims. I can't say exactly how much extra fuel it could throw in but I doubt it would get below 11:1

I see what you mean so if it gets to 11.1 it's still using 1/3rd more fuel at least.
If I run just 30 litres of E10 in my car with the balance of the tank 98 it starts to run about .4 of an afr point leaner! No trims enabled just OLSD.

cheers

[mmciau]

Regarding having to tune the way I see it when I run E85 I drive normally - i.e. very light throttle to and from work. I assumed because it was light throttle and load the ECU sees the lean mixture and richens it up. Makes sense because fuel usage goes up. I never use high throttle. Benefit? Today 14Jan2010 I filled up with E85 at 99.7c when E10 was 133.9 and 95 octane was 145.9 (I was too scared to see what Ultimate or similar was!) No pinging no issues. Having said that I generally run a mix of E85 and BP Ultimate. No issues at any time. Remember the octane rating of E85 is quite high. If a Flexfuel tune was available for reasonable dollars I'd be one of the first to get it done.


May I suggest you read this thread (Part 1).

In the very first post on this thread, there is a reference to a previous thread that reveals all the work necessary to ensure the safe performance of a VE on E85

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=128216 (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=128216)


Mike

[gmh308]

So would the stock ECM then run a 50:50 mix of E85 and PULP relatively easily?

It would/does do it, though the long term trims are on the edge, which still has the potential of the ECM seeing extended lean spikes under spirited acceleration where the short term trims dont respond quickly enough and posting lean fault DTC's.

EFILive has a switchable tune capability that is in beta test at present for E38's in VZ and VE's, which enables going from normal to an E85 tune at the flick of a switch.

This has the advantage of switching the ECM into flex fuel mode which means everything runs with ethanol in mind across fueling/trims and timing.

Of course with a switchable dual tune in the ECM, it also caters for nitrous and various FI timing/fueling setups, or street/strip fueling/timing.

There are a couple of other ways to get E85/flex fuel operating pretty seamlessly on E38's as well.

Cheers.

[Aussie Pete]

May I suggest you read this thread (Part 1).

In the very first post on this thread, there is a reference to a previous thread that reveals all the work necessary to ensure the safe performance of a VE on E85

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=128216 (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=128216)


Mike

Yeah that thread and its predecessor are no doubt great reading but who cares for people wanting to know if they can E85 their quad turbo stroked beast. What I'm looking for is a simple flexfuel install on the car where you can run normal fuel whenever you want but also E85 when it's available. Best efficiency, and best simplicity.

I see in the USA you can typically buy kits for around $400 for most GM cars - plug and play. Bring it on. Way better than running on four cylinders and better overall for the environment.

I used to say I don't care a damn but fuel companies charging what they charge for PULP/98RON is really working me up.

[disco364]

the horse power factory explain alot in their episode of oz garage

ozgarage.com.au/season1-video/episode-10-now-online-the-fuel-test?utm_source=ls1&utm_medium=forum&utm_campaign=ep10

but http and that first, havent got enough links