175kW V6 Omega [Archive] - Australian LS1 and Holden Forums

Excellent

10-12-2008, 11:43 AM

Ron SS

10-12-2008, 11:54 AM

The 60th Anniversary Commodores have this motor and 5 speed auto and are advertised as $29990 drive away. Basically a Calais type look at a very good price. I'm not sure what point you are making. Support Australia and we all benefit.

FlatfootV8

10-12-2008, 12:22 PM

At least the driving characteristics makes up for engine power.
Gee going back in time VK Commodore 85 odd kw non efi 202, VL 114kw (non turbo), VN 125-127 kw, VS-VY 147-152 kw, VZ-VE 170ish (not including SV6 and others).

How much power do people really need for a reps car???.

csv rulz

10-12-2008, 12:36 PM

Excellent

10-12-2008, 12:37 PM

Holden were making a song and dance about the new motor being Euro 4 compliant but they needed to drop power to get there.

Honda's V6 still produces 202kW and yet produces less emissions. Why couldn't Holden offer more and more?

macca_779

10-12-2008, 01:14 PM

CharlieDontSurf

10-12-2008, 01:18 PM

no 5 speed in 60 aniversary. Only regular 4 speed. Its a stop gap motor until we see in 09/10 e85 v6(omega/berlina), deicated lpg (omega berlina) and direct injection (sv6/calais/statesman).All matched to 6 speed auto. Probably all coming out with VF mid 09 for MY10

jonnyd1986

10-12-2008, 01:49 PM

More economical with less power but nowhere near the Accord V6 for emissions and efficiency. :bawl:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=59490&vf=14

Price From $37,290 (auto only)

Engine Size/Type 3.6-litre V6

Power 175kW

Torque 325Nm

Fuel Consumption 10.6L/100km

CO2 emissions 252g CO2/km

Honda Accord V6 From $38,490
ENGINE: 3.5-litre V6. 202kW/339Nm. FUEL USE/EMISSIONS: 10.0L/100km and 239gCO2/km.

The accord is lighter because its front wheel drive and slightly smaller there for it uses less fuel.

The only reason its the same price is because its cheaper to make a car front wheel drive. No need for drive shafts etc. So they've spent more on quality rather then the rwd drive train.

If the accord was rear wheel drive it would probably cost around 45k.

I'd get the Accord because of the better build quality, more advanced engine, more power, luxurious interior even though its front wheel drive.

Jon

BigFella

10-12-2008, 02:08 PM

The RRP for the accord on the road is about 42k. Some great deals are being done atm!
u can prob get one close to 36k drive away!
Great standard features, dual zone climate, 6 stacker in dash cd/mp3, paddel shift 5sp auto, cruise, VSA, all the airbags, elec drivers seat, full size 17" alloy spare.
the build quality will be better too and just the over all finish!

Go and test drive one!

iloveholden

10-12-2008, 02:31 PM

GODSMACK

10-12-2008, 02:37 PM

....says the Honda salesman :lol:
Have you driven one..?? I have, and it shits all over the Omega (not suprised).. Id choose it over the Calais even, but not the Calais V or V8 variant..

BigFella

10-12-2008, 04:57 PM

QFT!

if i wanted another calais, i would get the Ve V8 for sure, or SSV.
but ONLY if i wanted an 8!
en if its a 6 the honda wins hands down. this model is soooo much better than the old model, the old model was the most boring accord ever, i never liked it.

yeah im a honda salesman, have been for 4 years now, but happy to give an un biased opinion. i love my holden V8s, have had a few and still love em hence me being a member here since 2002:)

Road Warrior

10-12-2008, 06:31 PM

Personally I'd go for Subaru Liberty 3.0RB over a Honduh....anyday.

lowriding

10-12-2008, 07:38 PM

No point comparing power ,torque and economy figures when it comes to Hondas as there's a bigger story to it than that and yes Martha it's all in the delivery :teach: yeah i've bought a honda in the past not bad but i certainly dont miss it ,everyone who reads choice magazine and political correct weekly or the like will tell you how great they are but I personally found them to be very overrated vehicles and even moreso these days .

kpop

10-12-2008, 07:39 PM

japs have done it better then the americans, or aussies, whats new

the honda accord (and euro) are very well made cars, why else has it got car of the year, twice :goodjob: (yes i own one) :smilesandbanana:

iloveholden

10-12-2008, 07:40 PM

Have you driven one..?? I have, and it shits all over the Omega (not suprised).. Id choose it over the Calais even, but not the Calais V or V8 variant..

No i havnt mate but wasnt making any comparison...just a joke.

Even though i havnt driven the Honda i can say in near complete confidence that it would be better than most 6 commodore variants.:)

When it comes to V8s though its a different story.

SCiFiRE

10-12-2008, 07:48 PM

I really think Holden needs to get that SIDI engine on the go, and put the current premium engine in the omega....

Its gotta be fairly good if it made this list
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/07/wards-auto-declares-ten-best-engines-of-2009/

some good company there.

GODSMACK

11-12-2008, 09:04 AM

No i havnt mate but wasnt making any comparison...just a joke.

Even though i havnt driven the Honda i can say in near complete confidence that it would be better than most 6 commodore variants.:)

When it comes to V8s though its a different story.
All good mate, didn't mean for it to come across that way.

edit..... just read the comments...

FireArc

11-12-2008, 01:59 PM

Australian LS1 and Holden Forums (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=107509)

:)

Jac001

11-12-2008, 03:06 PM

falcom

11-12-2008, 03:37 PM

Jac001

11-12-2008, 03:46 PM

I am a bit concerned that Holden have direct injection technolgy available to them NOW and yet they are still dragging the chain.

It would be different if the V6 was competitive with the opposition but it isn,t.

Come on HOLDEN pull your finger out.(regarding the V6).

And who is going to pay for this? You may not have noticed that Holden isn't exactly rolling in cash and GM is almost bankrupt...

Ghia351

11-12-2008, 03:57 PM

The omega is 5% heavier than the accord and uses 5% more feul and created 5% greater CO2 emmesions.

So weight for weight the accord engine and gear box is no more effiecnt than the omega engine/ and old 4 speed...Very interesting when you put it that way plus the Accord V6 also has cylinder deactivation...not really of any benefit apart from marketing brochures it would seem.

ringram

11-12-2008, 11:54 PM

Only girls drive FWD cars, so why even mention the Honda?

VZ_V8

12-12-2008, 12:13 AM

my mums new Accord Euro Luxury Navigation arrived just under two weeks ago. Since i have sold my VU i have been driving it a fair amount. Even though it is much more expensive than a base model commodore the driving experience is the same as its lesser optioned variant which is in a closer price range.

It is probably the easiest car i have driven, and for my age i have driven a lot of cars. Its incredibly smooth, decent power, outstanding gearbox, very light steering plus it has a lot of options. Just an overall good car. I'd never take it over my VZ :p but i would prefer to drive it than a base model commodore if i was a few years older.

FlatfootV8

12-12-2008, 08:42 AM

Only girls drive FWD cars, so why even mention the Honda?

Hehehehehe. :goodjob:
FWD cars are good for shopping trollies or small cars but screw driving a FWD large car it just goes against my principles..... ;)
That goes for driving anything less than a V8 too......

falcom

12-12-2008, 10:22 AM

And who is going to pay for this? You may not have noticed that Holden isn't exactly rolling in cash and GM is almost bankrupt...

The Direct Injection engine has already been developed and is ready to go.

So I do not think it will be that expensive to add it to the line up.

My guess is they are waiting for VF.My only concern is by then the damage will be done as at first public perception was the V6 was line ball with the opposition but as more and more comparisons come out it shows the Commodore V6 is bottom of the heap and then public perception will change and it will be too hard to get them back again.

payaya

13-12-2008, 12:51 AM

The omega is 5% heavier than the accord and uses 5% more feul and created 5% greater CO2 emmesions.

So weight for weight the accord engine and gear box is no more effiecnt than the omega engine/ and old 4 speed...

You left out peak power tho. Its got 20% more power.

The Direct Injection engine has already been developed and is ready to go.

So I do not think it will be that expensive to add it to the line up.

My guess is they are waiting for VF.My only concern is by then the damage will be done as at first public perception was the V6 was line ball with the opposition but as more and more comparisons come out it shows the Commodore V6 is bottom of the heap and then public perception will change and it will be too hard to get them back again.

I just dont understand why the V6 was released the way it was. I mean there was massive hype how it was going to be a great engine but it turned out to be a bit of a dud.

Alot of people mention to give it time to develop but it should be this way it should be brilliant out of the box. The only thing I can think of is its typical american try make things on the cheap!

cdxi

15-12-2008, 02:59 PM

I just dont understand why the V6 was released the way it was. I mean there was massive hype how it was going to be a great engine but it turned out to be a bit of a dud.

Alot of people mention to give it time to develop but it should be this way it should be brilliant out of the box. The only thing I can think of is its typical american try make things on the cheap![/QUOTE]

Our 2004 release Alloytech engines were both better than the Ecotech but were always meant to be "developed". Holden used the VZ as the testbed for the Alloytech, rather than matching a new engine and platform together with the VE in 2006.

Notwithstanding, the current iterations fall short of the competition without question. The VE is now kind of like where the VK was in late '85 - the standard engine/transmission combo was behind the pack, the "premium" just on the pace.

The next model Commodore will have to have advertising bragging rights to sing and dance about, so we will see a much enhanced engine (all with 6 spd auto). The marketeers will be able to claim big percentage improvements in economy, emissions and power....probably in that order too. The VE10 (I'm hearing we will no longer see another "V" designation) will improve upon the Falcon's economy and Aurion's transmission. Whether its a better drive is anyone's guess.

Oh - and the new car will be skinnier.....and develop the masculine stance the car is already well known for.

Jac001

15-12-2008, 03:10 PM

The Direct Injection engine has already been developed and is ready to go.

So I do not think it will be that expensive to add it to the line up.

My guess is they are waiting for VF.My only concern is by then the damage will be done as at first public perception was the V6 was line ball with the opposition but as more and more comparisons come out it shows the Commodore V6 is bottom of the heap and then public perception will change and it will be too hard to get them back again.

If the cost was just $100 per motor it would work out to $12m /year.

The average Joe doesn't buy a car based on just the engine or its statistics.

You left out peak power tho. Its got 20% more power.

Peak power is an irrelevent statistic. (Its a marketing plow used to fool suckers). You engine doesn't spin at the speed that peak power is created constantly. It varies!

Whats important is the total area under a torque curve produced at the wheels under the approrpriate gear for that velocity.

planetdavo

15-12-2008, 06:17 PM

The Direct Injection engine has already been developed and is ready to go.

So I do not think it will be that expensive to add it to the line up.

To give just one indication of the extra cost of a direct injection, let's have a look at the list price difference between the standard pressure EFI fuel pump of a port injected 1.8 AH Astra and a super high pressure direct injected 2.2 AH Astra.
The 1.8 "standard" one is around $500, and the DI one is around $1200.
Volume obviously reduces the dfference, but there's still heaps in it, and most people wouldn't know whether there car has a direct injection motor or not!
Wonder how many Aurion owners have even heard of direct injection, considering their car has it...?

Excellent

15-12-2008, 08:50 PM

I guess it would be better if Holden concentrated on offering one flavour of engine much like Ford and Toyota do with their sixes. That way, there wouldn't be the level of criticism that there is across the board for the Holden V6.

Holden's V6 doesn't have to have DI but it would be good if it was competitive instead of sub par. I know the top line engine is good but their base V6 cops too much negative press. It doesn't need to be that way.

Jac001

15-12-2008, 09:16 PM

Holden's V6 doesn't have to have DI but it would be good if it was competitive instead of sub par.

Just out of curiousity which V6 cars outsell the v6 commodore in australia?

Isn't that the ultimate measure of competition? ;)

macca_779

15-12-2008, 09:27 PM

Just out of curiousity which V6 cars outsell the v6 commodore in australia?

Isn't that the ultimate measure of competition? ;)

i think you might find that if you take V8 sales out the equation Ford sells more 6's than Holden with Falcon and Territory sales combined.

Excellent

15-12-2008, 09:28 PM

Just out of curiousity which V6 cars outsell the v6 commodore in australia?

Isn't that the ultimate measure of competition? ;)

It's not sales that's a measure of how good an engine is. The point is irrelevant. If I'm considering a V6, I probably don't care whether its FWD or RWD. I want the best vehicle based on value, quality and performance.

falcom

16-12-2008, 08:27 AM

Just out of curiousity which V6 cars outsell the v6 commodore in australia?

Isn't that the ultimate measure of competition? ;)

The reason Holden sells more V6 Commodores at the moment are due to the loyalty of Holden buyers(Thanks to Holden's marketing department) and I think most people prefer the looks of the Commodore over the opposition.(The engine is only one part of the equation)

But people will not be loyal forever.

I consider myself a loyal Holden customer and I will be buying a new car in 2009 but if the VF V6 does not come up to scratch I will be going elsewhere for the first time in my life.

Mikey

16-12-2008, 08:52 AM

The VE10 (I'm hearing we will no longer see another "V" designation)

Oh - and the new car will be skinnier.....and develop the masculine stance the car is already well known for.I can't beleive that this one slipped through to the keeper without anyone asking for more info!

falcom

16-12-2008, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by cdxi
The VE10 (I'm hearing we will no longer see another "V" designation)

Oh - and the new car will be skinnier.....and develop the masculine stance the car is already well known for.

I can't beleive that this one slipped through to the keeper without anyone asking for more info!

I think because most people realise to make VE10(VF) skinnier would be huge cost for a model not even three years into its life and would not be feasible.

Mikey

16-12-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by cdxi
The VE10 (I'm hearing we will no longer see another "V" designation)

Oh - and the new car will be skinnier.....and develop the masculine stance the car is already well known for.

I think because most people realise to make VE10(VF) skinnier would be huge cost for a model not even three years into its life and would not be feasible.I thought this when I first read it and dismissed it at first glance also because of the same reasons that you mentioned but when I thought about it, skinnier could also mean less weight. I seem to remember the VT going on a diet for the VX as well. A little more info would be good!

cdxi

16-12-2008, 02:33 PM

I can't beleive that this one slipped through to the keeper without anyone asking for more info!

The "skinnier" VE10 is not a physically narrower car. It will be a lighter one. The vehicle is on a weight reduction program but don't expect miracles for a series update.

We aren't talking big numbers, given that some weight reduction will be offset by heavier 6-spd transmissions and other equipment upgrades across the range.

This is no Mazda 2, 3 or 6 weight reduction program. It is just the progressive updates similar to those we saw to make VT II lighter than the original VT.

planetdavo

16-12-2008, 05:40 PM

It's not sales that's a measure of how good an engine is. The point is irrelevant.
I don't believe that was ever his point, to be honest.
He was just saying that as much as the auto media bag the Alloytec, and some people posting on this forum bag the Alloytec, the car as a whole is still the favoured overall combination for more Australian buyers.
Too many media types and clearly performance forum members as well get caught up in the whole argument about the "best" engine and drivetrain combination as making the car what it is.
Most people just don't care! As long as the car does most things right for them, at a good enough price, they will buy it, and that's what people do with VE.
Ford in particular built sh!t cars for that many years that many people won't consider the Falcon any more, not because of successful Holden marketing campaigns, and to many people the "cardigan" brand builds cars so totally devoid of any character they wouldn't be seen dead in them, because basically the only ones buying them have one foot in the grave already!

Excellent

16-12-2008, 07:06 PM

I don't believe that was ever his point, to be honest.
He was just saying that as much as the auto media bag the Alloytec, and some people posting on this forum bag the Alloytec, the car as a whole is still the favoured overall combination for more Australian buyers.
Too many media types and clearly performance forum members as well get caught up in the whole argument about the "best" engine and drivetrain combination as making the car what it is.
Most people just don't care! As long as the car does most things right for them, at a good enough price, they will buy it, and that's what people do with VE.
Ford in particular built sh!t cars for that many years that many people won't consider the Falcon any more, not because of successful Holden marketing campaigns, and to many people the "cardigan" brand builds cars so totally devoid of any character they wouldn't be seen dead in them, because basically the only ones buying them have one foot in the grave already!

Maybe you don't care behind the spare parts sales desk but I work, I pay my money. I do care about how I spend my money and what I get in return for my hard earned.

I couldn't give a rats about the Falcon and I've tried hard to like it. The media might love it but there's more desirable cars out there. The Honda Accord is one, the Camry isn't too bad either. It's a buyer's market.

planetdavo

18-12-2008, 05:35 AM

Maybe you don't care behind the spare parts sales desk but I work, I pay my money. I do care about how I spend my money and what I get in return for my hard earned.

Like I said, a "performance" forum is NOT the best place to get the correct answers on this one. Also note that I said MOST. MOST did not mean ALL last time I checked. :goodjob:
Maybe, just maybe, working at a dealership, I might just have a little bit better an idea of who actually walks in and buys cars than you...:flipoff:

Excellent

18-12-2008, 07:09 AM

Maybe, just maybe, working at a dealership, I might just have a little bit better an idea of who actually walks in and buys cars than you...:flipoff:

Or just walks in and asks how much for parts before they quickly leave.

planetdavo

18-12-2008, 06:37 PM

Or just walks in and asks how much for parts before they quickly leave.
One can always ride a push bike if they have a tight @rse...:)

payaya

18-12-2008, 11:10 PM

If the cost was just $100 per motor it would work out to $12m /year.

The average Joe doesn't buy a car based on just the engine or its statistics.

Peak power is an irrelevent statistic. (Its a marketing plow used to fool suckers). You engine doesn't spin at the speed that peak power is created constantly. It varies!

Whats important is the total area under a torque curve produced at the wheels under the approrpriate gear for that velocity.

But once it hits there sweet spot it produces 20% more power! Also yes average Joe doesnt buy a car only on engine statistics but we arent talking about the car here we are talking about the engine.

planetdavo

19-12-2008, 06:17 PM

But once it hits there sweet spot it produces 20% more power! Also yes average Joe doesnt buy a car only on engine statistics but we arent talking about the car here we are talking about the engine.
There have been well and truly enough threads about the Alloytec to not have yet another focused thread specifically on this subject. It branched off in a "whole car" direction, and is a better thread for it, as some people just can't comprehend on here that the "best" engine does not make it the "favourite" car with the average buyer. :teach: