Another Torana thread...

[CLUBRED]

Cos this seems to be a new concept, well news to me anyways,

http://www.magshop.com.au/images/products/160_081217_xl.jpg

If they garantee they build it to at least Honda build quality, have at least a high output V6 option, I'll sign the papers today and I don't care even if its FWD.

[scullywags]

yes agree, im sick of all the 'scoop' concept shit! people and holden people at that are craveing something mid sized aussie built torana etc

[pelagonia_ss]

Needs to be a AWD or RWD option and a turbo 6 for me to sign the papers..

[Jag530G]

This was a very disappointing article from Wheels, goes to show even they are getting desperate to entice magazine buyers with this beat-up.

This car is going to be built of the Delta II platform so it will be very similar to the Astra, ie FWD maybe optional AWD, 4 cyl with maybe a turbo 4 for performance and I seriously doubt it will be called Torana, people would torch Fishermens Bend if they did.

It will be like the Camira, which was built on the global J Car platform that was also used for the Vauxhall Cavalier, Cadillac Cimarron, Pontiac J-2000, Buick Skyhawk, Isuzu ????, Oldsmobile ????, Opel ????, Chev ????. It also used GM's Family I/II engines around the world. Holden actually exported Camira Wagon bodies to Vauxhall to be built as the Vauxhall Cav Estate. Holden won't actually do much design work as it will all be done in Detroit/Germany. Maybe a bit of suspension tuning and that's about it.

For the Torana to ever happen, and frankly with GM's state, it's got Buckley's chance of happening, GM would need to authorise a samller RWD platform (Alpha, I think it was to be called, please confirm.).

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Cheers, Matthew

[planetdavo]

If they garantee they build it to at least Honda build quality (NO), have at least a high output V6 option (NO), I'll sign the papers today and I don't care even if its FWD (YES!).

[FOON]

To live up to the heritage of the name Torana, they must make it a high output V6 (Similar to the GTR XU1) for it to be worthy of the name, IMO though they should leave those names in the hall of fame, the HSV GTS is a nice car and I love it but I dont think it shouldve had the GTS moniker, very much the same as the FPV GT both shouldve been left to the Hall of Motor Fame.

[planetdavo]

Anyone remember the pissy little weezy HB Torana? Not all the history of the nameplate can be viewed through rose tinted glasses...

[FOON]

I guess I stand corrected

[FunkyPig]

Since this will be a locally modified global GM small car, the most approprite name would be Gemini...

I really hope they resist calling it Torana, at least if they did they would have no choice but to offer fast versions to give the car credibility.

[Jag530G]

Anyone remember the pissy little weezy HB Torana? Not all the history of the nameplate can be viewed through rose tinted glasses...

Don't knock the HB, Holden released a "Brabham" performance model. This car started the super-car wars!:jester:

Cheers, Matthew

[lowriding]

looks like all Wheels have done is lightly chopped the new Opel insignia .

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/11/258204.jpg

[planetdavo]

Don't knock the HB, Holden released a "Brabham" performance model. This car started the super-car wars!:jester:

Cheers, Matthew
Let's not forget that whilst Brocky was racing around Bathurst in his VC Commodore Group C beast, Holden was also selling a 1.9 Starfire stinker on the showroom floor...

[Big_Valven]

Honestly to save money why don't they just build the insignia here a la vectra? We already know it's a good car.

As for Wheels, they have sh*t for brains, and I am in no mind to listen to a thing they say.

In fact one thing we can take from this is the cover of wheels is guaranteed NOT to be Holden's new car.

[RARASV8]

Let's not forget that whilst Brocky was racing around Bathurst in his VC Commodore Group C beast, Holden was also selling a 1.9 Starfire stinker on the showroom floor...


that wasn't a Torana, but the conrods out of these starfires worked bloody good in the holden six!

and i have to agree, needs to be a six with some performance orientation to it, to be called a TORANA.
and wasn't the HB Torana based along the lines of the Vauxhall VIVA?

Garry

[WH Captain]

Honestly to save money why don't they just build the insignia here a la vectra? We already know it's a good car.

As for Wheels, they have sh*t for brains, and I am in no mind to listen to a thing they say.

In fact one thing we can take from this is the cover of wheels is guaranteed NOT to be Holden's new car.

+1!! Well said, Wheels are living in La La Land

[SSV8TE]

Gday all,
Lets not forget the curb weight of these newer commodores, etc. They are quite alot heavier than the machines of the past especially the commodores so why not produce a chev powered torana as the power to weight ratio wouldnt be that erratic that it would be that dangerous. Of course the new p plate law would help keep the inexperienced drivers out of them if they were to produce one.
The slr 5000 was a machine remembered for its awsome power and bathurst stats.
I believe that they would sell off the charts as soon as they were released.
All just a thought for debate i guess.

Cheers,

Andy.

[gmh308]

Gday all,
Lets not forget the curb weight of these newer commodores, etc. They are quite alot heavier than the machines of the past especially the commodores so why not produce a chev powered torana as the power to weight ratio wouldnt be that erratic that it would be that dangerous. Of course the new p plate law would help keep the inexperienced drivers out of them if they were to produce one.
The slr 5000 was a machine remembered for its awsome power and bathurst stats.
I believe that they would sell off the charts as soon as they were released.
All just a thought for debate i guess.

Cheers,

Andy.

If only GM had several hundred million bucks to develop a rear wheel drive Torana.........a cut down VE and in the 1400-1500kg range at most.

Probably the biggest mistake made on the VE was designing it to be large enough for the US market.

Just when cars needed to be smaller, it was designed larger.

Hopefull Holden's weight removal program will cut a 100kg or two out of the weight.

:bawl:

[planetdavo]

Honestly to save money why don't they just build the insignia here a la vectra? We already know it's a good car.

As for Wheels, they have sh*t for brains, and I am in no mind to listen to a thing they say.

Punchy headlines sell magazines. :teach:
I doubt the Insignia would have been a good idea. People are deserting most of the other classes for the small class. Insignia, being a large medium car like the Mondeo, would likely be in the same trouble as Mondeo, ie: a very good car that most buyers ignore. Even Mazda had to drop the prices of their excellent new 6 barely a few months after release, as they were having trouble moving what they expected with them too, whereas the 5 year old 3 was selling up a storm even in it's last year of the old shape.

[Party Pete]

The question is whether this rush to small cars is just a blip caused by panic over fuel prices which will settle down again. Those who have been around long enough will remember that this all happened in the 70's too and the original Commodore was chosen as it was smaller. It nearly sent Holden broke as within a short period of time everyone realised that smaller cars didn't really fit their needs. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that they are going to build a smaller car at Holden, having all your eggs in one basket is always dangerous. But I don't think that the large car is dead yet. However, I do think that the current Commodore has gone a bit far on size. I think the previous model was plenty big enough and presumably if they had stuck to that size the new Commodore could have been considerably lighter. With 100kgs less weight it would be substantially quicker and more economical.

Finally, is it just me who was disappointed to read that the new small car is going to have the cheap beam axle on the back like the Chevy Cruze not the independant suspension like the Astra? It is amazing that the Australian market has clearly shown that they are happy to buy the more expensive small car but GM still seem to believe that price is everything.

[A^K^T]

Anyone remember the pissy little weezy HB Torana? Not all the history of the nameplate can be viewed through rose tinted glasses...

It seems to have been forgotten that the LC/LJ Torana started life as a HA Vauxhaul Viva built by Holden (if my memory serves me correctly) with a thumping great 1100cc 70.7 hp (and that was a tad optimistic) powerhouse .
With any luck we will get a good small to medium sized car that will evolve into something good as it did with the Torana .

[zaim]

wooo it's a 4 door!

[NewV8]

Gday all,
Lets not forget the curb weight of these newer commodores, etc. They are quite alot heavier than the machines of the past especially the commodores so why not produce a chev powered torana as the power to weight ratio wouldnt be that erratic that it would be that dangerous. Of course the new p plate law would help keep the inexperienced drivers out of them if they were to produce one.
The slr 5000 was a machine remembered for its awsome power and bathurst stats.
I believe that they would sell off the charts as soon as they were released.
All just a thought for debate i guess.

Cheers,

Andy.

I'd love a 4WD SLR6000 to blow away those WRXs.

[Marco]

The new small Holden shouldn't be called Torana. While many here have positive views of Toranas, many more out there in the general population equate the Torana badge with (a) clapped out rust buckets or (b) bogans and hoons. Neither of which is going to work for a new car with so much riding on it.

Even I'd be reluctant to buy anything with the Torana name attached for these reasons, but maybe that's because I'm not old enough to remember the good old days of the Torana, I just remember how rubbish most of the Toranas I saw on the road as a kid were. It's right up there with 'Sigma' and '200B' in terms of old badges for me, much as I respect the genuinely epic Toranas like the XU-1 and A9X.

For similar reasons, it shouldn't be a Gemini or pretty much anything else from Holden's back catalogue. The value of these old nameplates has been ruined by what the cars became in their old age.

I see only two good options. The first is to continue calling the new car the Holden Astra, particularly if Holden isn't planning to keep selling the Opel Astra alongside the new car. There's no sense in throwing away a nameplate that has been around since 1984, has an excellent reputation in the marketplace, and is currently attached to Holden's second biggest selling model and its main player in this segment.

The only other sensible option is a totally new name, to reinforce the idea that this is a totally new, modern and up to date car deserving of a totally new name. The trouble with this is that it takes years to get a name established in the minds of non-car people. Look at what happened when the much-loved Nissan Pulsar disappeared and the Tiida turned up. Sure, the Tiida is a rubbish car but the Pulsar model before it wasn't much good either - people bought it on the strength of the Pulsar reputation. It's going to be very hard work for Holden to make people understand that the Holden Whatever is their new Corolla competitor and to keep it in mind when they're shopping for a new small car.

[ADAM 26]

if they bring it out it has to be a rwd!

the torana has a good name for itself, if they bought it back as a puss box it would rouin it.

must haves:

performance 6 option, either blown or turbo, and or v8 option.

rwd

good quality

not look like a ladys car!!

maybe if holden make a light weight, mid sized v8 it would boost sales?? the fuel econlomy would be great, also would be great fun to drive!

[MRLXSS]

As a Torana-Holic, I would be absolutely disgusted if Holden even considered badging that rubbish as a Torana! I was ashamed when i saw the Torana TT36 thing... It was PINK FFS! It had NO features or image of the old torana... Sure it was a smaller car with a fast motor... But thats about it!

This is just another WHEELS beat up... The thought of the torana being reserrected Sells magazines! I dont know many people in Australia that do not have a soft spot for Toranas...

Even Ford lovers seem to think the little Torry's are good cars!

The only thing that me or the rest of the Torana community would accept, is if the Torana is an Australian designed and Built RWD Small-midsize car, with the option of a performance model to compete with the worlds best!

I could live with a Turbo or supercharged V6 in a 13-400kg car! That would be insane! Have some Hero colours on them and your away!

We must understand that cars are not developed from the ground up over night. I think the VE was being blue printed before the VT was even released! So that just shows how long it takes to develop a new car! Even if Holden started thinking about the Torana back in 04 (?) when they released the concept car... They would still be working their butts off to actually have a car designed!

Anyway, I think Holden are smart... They will not badge a POS daewoo remake a torana just to sell cars... They would have done that already if it was the case...

[Hamico]

Anyway, I think Holden are smart... They will not badge a POS daewoo remake a torana just to sell cars... They would have done that already if it was the case...

Ummm......,they did already.

Your Holden Viva (original Torana name) is a re-badged Daewoo Lacetti...:rofl:

[V-Car]

Any drawings of a new small Holden are only a vague idea of what the drawer thinks it might look like.
Wheels (and Motor) have zilch credibility when it comes to these so called scoops, anything to grab someones attention at the news stand...factual info doesnt come into it.

Here is what European mags are thinking the next Opel Astra will look like, so what we get will probably have clues from this and the Chevy Cruze.

http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~reccie/2010astra.jpg

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/233740/first_pictures_of_new_astra.html

[MRLXSS]

Ummm......,they did already.

Your Holden Viva (original Torana name) is a re-badged Daewoo Lacetti...:rofl:


Your wrong mate, :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Its a re-badged Vauxhaul Viva.

In 1972 Sinjin Automobiles (Daewoo's early name) actually rebadged an LJ Torana and tried to sell it in Korea as a Daewoo Chevrolet 1700.

Pics, if you dont believe me.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c257/253ToranaSS/87dc2853.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c257/253ToranaSS/1d54c7e0.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c257/253ToranaSS/e39506c2.jpg

If you feel like having a laugh.

http://www.buscar.co.kr/eng/main6_2.htm

Check out the CHEVROLET 1700, CAMINA and check out your commodore's Daewoo brother... the ROYALE SALON

[Hamico]

Ummm......,read this

think you need to go back a little earlier than the LJ.....now for the history lesson......

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_holden_torana_hb.htm

.

[MRLXSS]

Ummm......,read this

think you need to go back a little earlier than the LJ.....now for the history lesson......

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_holden_torana_hb.htm

.

What are you trying to tell me? What did i say that was wrong?

More info here about Toranas than you will ever find anywhere else!

http://www.gmh-torana.com.au/

Go have a history lesson for yourself.

[which12day]

To live up to the heritage of the name Torana, they must make it a high output V6 (Similar to the GTR XU1) for it to be worthy of the name, IMO though they should leave those names in the hall of fame, the HSV GTS is a nice car and I love it but I dont think it shouldve had the GTS moniker, very much the same as the FPV GT both shouldve been left to the Hall of Motor Fame.

I bought a new LC XU1 Torana in the 70s (showing my age), absolutely the worst car I've ever owned, it ate gear boxes, shoveled the front wheels around, the triple Stromberg carbies detuned themselves daily, it was uncomfortable and I'm sure it must have been built by Skoda!

Leave it dead and buried!


If only GM had several hundred million bucks to develop a rear wheel drive Torana.........a cut down VE and in the 1400-1500kg range at most.

Probably the biggest mistake made on the VE was designing it to be large enough for the US market.

Just when cars needed to be smaller, it was designed larger.

Hopefull Holden's weight removal program will cut a 100kg or two out of the weight.

:bawl:

You’ve got enough options in the mid-sized range so be satisfied with them rather than suggesting that the large car range shrink even further. My Clubsports have been fantastic and I’m staying with them. Over the last 8000 kilometres my VE has averaged 13 L/100K mostly in city driving so there’s little economic justification to downsize.

[Excellent]

This was a very disappointing article from Wheels, goes to show even they are getting desperate to entice magazine buyers with this beat-up.


They've been doing it for years. Put a Dore or a Falc on the cover, hype up the content and sell zillions. But when the locals are pitted against the opposition, the world's best are never the locals despite their previous claims.

In any case, I like the look of the car on the cover. But I still wouldn't buy Wheels for its covers.

[cdxi]

Have we all gone stark raving mad?

This new "Torana" is the Delta II FWD platform - ie Lacetti/Cruze.

The Euro Astra has the multi-link rear version of this platform and no common panels/pressings.

The Wheels mag blokes are playing games and its just speculation.

The Holden version will be near identical to the Chevrolet Cruze, as already pointed out by Mike Simcoe. Australia will get unique front end and other soft panel changes. Aus is also responsible for the design & development of a hatch version. Holden will export both sedan and hatch.

We will get
1.8 DI petrol
2.0 Tdi
5spd man/6 spd auto

Under consideration
CNG
LPG
Hybrid

This is not a revolutionary vehicle, nor will it be anything more than a 4cyl.

[VE 348]

Please holden dont bring back torana with a shit cheap package....bring a worked 6 and a 5 second V8......nothing less.

Must cost at least $45,000 for the 6 and $55,000 for the 8 or it will be like a small omega with a sports look.

[The_Plague]

I seriously doubt it will be called Torana, people would torch Fishermens Bend if they did.


Correct, I know I am packing some explosives into a van right now if they label that shitheap a Torana, its no better than that effeminate pink pimp mobile from the motor show a few years back.

[WILWIN]

Here is an idea for Holden/GM,

Build a V6 TT or IL6 T and then we can be competitive with the F**DS!!! They could even do this on the existing VE platform!!!!!!!!!!

[Red CV8 R]

The new small Holden shouldn't be called Torana. While many here have positive views of Toranas, many more out there in the general population equate the Torana badge with (a) clapped out rust buckets or (b) bogans and hoons. Neither of which is going to work for a new car with so much riding on it.

Even I'd be reluctant to buy anything with the Torana name attached for these reasons, but maybe that's because I'm not old enough to remember the good old days of the Torana, I just remember how rubbish most of the Toranas I saw on the road as a kid were. It's right up there with 'Sigma' and '200B' in terms of old badges for me, much as I respect the genuinely epic Toranas like the XU-1 and A9X.

For similar reasons, it shouldn't be a Gemini or pretty much anything else from Holden's back catalogue. The value of these old nameplates has been ruined by what the cars became in their old age.

I see only two good options. The first is to continue calling the new car the Holden Astra, particularly if Holden isn't planning to keep selling the Opel Astra alongside the new car. There's no sense in throwing away a nameplate that has been around since 1984, has an excellent reputation in the marketplace, and is currently attached to Holden's second biggest selling model and its main player in this segment.

The only other sensible option is a totally new name, to reinforce the idea that this is a totally new, modern and up to date car deserving of a totally new name. The trouble with this is that it takes years to get a name established in the minds of non-car people. Look at what happened when the much-loved Nissan Pulsar disappeared and the Tiida turned up. Sure, the Tiida is a rubbish car but the Pulsar model before it wasn't much good either - people bought it on the strength of the Pulsar reputation. It's going to be very hard work for Holden to make people understand that the Holden Whatever is their new Corolla competitor and to keep it in mind when they're shopping for a new small car.

I agree 100% with everything you have written! Spot on.

There are some fond memories of the performance Torana's to enthusiasts but to the general buying public the car is viewed very differently. Calling Holden's new small car a Torana would be a big mistake imo. Nice trip down memory lane but it wont help Holden sell the car.

I think that Holden needs to shrink the commodore. Its not just about fuel consumption. Tastes have changed and alot of the car buying public no longer want a car the size of the Commodore/ Falcon. I think when the Kingswood was shrunk to become the commodore most people still wanted to buy large cars. Back then Holden thought the best way to achieve fuel consumption reductions was to shrink the car. Its no longer the only option.

The market didn't take to the smaller Holden back then but I think now there are lots of different reasons why people are wanting smaller cars. Most people who would have traditionaly bought a bigger Holden or Ford seem to be buying mid to large cars now it seems. You don't want to make the commodore tiny but it needs to be smaller and much lighter than the VE in the futrue. I mean Petrol is now cheaper and I haven't seen a run on big cars. The writing is on the wall it seems. In the end there is still a place for large cars but that market is getting smaller every year.

[CSP]

There is still a huge market for the Commodore/Falcon sized cars.

I know that being 6 foot 2 and 120kgs they're the only cars I fit comfortably in short of buying a S-Class Merc or 7 Series BMW (or a large coupe).

Show me another car of the same quality, safety and performance for the price, and that can comfortably transport 4 adults my size and their luggage from Sydney to Melbourne.

[steves87]

id put money on the turbo 4 from the Pontiac Solstice being the performance optioned engine for a new torana

[Mikey]

Correct, I know I am packing some explosives into a van right now if they label that shitheap a Torana, its no better than that effeminate pink pimp mobile from the motor show a few years back.Wow how old are some of you guys??? The XU-1 L34 A9X Toranas did not suddenly appear from nowhere one day. They were developed over nearly a decade from very humble beginnings. They also were allowed to finish with the sh1t heap that was the UC as well (no V8 option). Has everyone forgotten the Vauxhall Viva derived HB Torana???

I know racing was the catalyst but people had to first get use to the quirky little Torana that was originally marketed to women as well.

[planetdavo]

Wow how old are some of you guys??? The XU-1 L34 A9X Toranas did not suddenly appear from nowhere one day. They were developed over nearly a decade from very humble beginnings.
Mate, much of the current generation expect everything they want now, like it's some god given right. Log on, pay by card, and it will appear in the mail within 3 days...
I'd laugh if all the people getting caught up in this Wheels headline find out "Torana" didn't even make the top 10 naming options! :rofl:

[Big_Valven]

Just when cars needed to be smaller, it was designed larger.


I doubt Holden saw this coming in 2002 when most of the chassis details were as good as locked in... lets not forget it takes a long time to develop a cleansheet car...

[MRLXSS]

They could call it "The New Era, Camira!" LOL