Which has better suspension – Holden or Ford?

[Swordie]

Which has better suspension; for example Falcon vs Omega, SS vs XR, FPV vs HSV?

I was chatting with the wheel alignment guy today, he seemed to think the XR has more comfortable suspension than an SS.

[Evman]

Just so ya know this thread will most likely get closed. Suspension is subjective. Comfortable for some people is too soft for others. Best way to work out what you prefer is to drive both types of car and decide for yourself that way.

[smokey777]

agree with Evman & shit Evman 5000 rwkw she must fly :)

[Swordie]

Guys,

Do you think Forum Members are unable to discuss subjective topics in a mature manner?

[Aus8]

Guys,

Do you think Forum Members are unable to discuss subjective topics in a mature manner?

That would be correct thanks to a couple of particular members on here and any forum for that matter. I agree with Evman can you define "comfortable suspension" for me. What I find comfortable will be totally different to you and so on.

Cheers

[Mr_SS-V]

i like driving on bumpstops.. some like the feel of a 4wd... as others say... everyones different

[macca_779]

From a technical perspective the Ford suspension comprising Double A arms up front and the control blade IRS is a very good starting base. With VE I think Holden now has the slightly better IRS but they are still behind Ford with their McPherson strut front setup.

That's only the core hardware. Having the hardware and setting it up are two completely different things.

My opinions for the models that were listed would be.

XT - OMEGA
XR - SS
FPV - HSV

All personal choice though and many people will choose one or the other as suspension is a very personal aspect of a car. For VE models while I think the FE2 equipped models handle pretty good for OEM. I would like alot less roll under lateral G (bigger roll bars), softer bump and harder rebound settings.

For the Fords. I don't mind the base setup but I would like front ride dropped and rear raised a touch to induce more oversteer.

[gmh308]

Driven both at the limit and the Holden seems to have more predictable front end grip and is more linear and direct. It should be, it is a "virtual centre" design identical to Bimmers and Mercs, even if it is a mac strut.

[Evman]

agree with Evman & shit Evman 5000 rwkw she must fly :)

It's < 5000rwkw ;) That is, less than haha. I figured I should give plenty of head room to make sure I didn't sell myself short... :jester:


Guys,

Do you think Forum Members are unable to discuss subjective topics in a mature manner?

No it's definitely possible, but not likely. It only takes one person to say, "Holden's is better" (or visa versa) and then someone else will no doubt tell them they are wrong because the other is better, or that they're a one eyed supporter. Then we'll have a free for all and the mods will come in and close the thread.

[vecommo]

Driven both at the limit and the Holden seems to have more predictable front end grip and is more linear and direct. It should be, it is a "virtual centre" design identical to Bimmers and Mercs, even if it is a mac strut.

Agreed. Some people automatically think because it is a McPherson strut it must be inferior. Holden have done a brilliant job with the VE's suspension and the fact that it outperforms Ford's more complex and theoretically superior 'double a arm' setup speaks volumes in itself.

[SCiFiRE]

Ive always though XRs suspension was more comfortable for everyday driving, but when you want to give it a bit, go around a track or motorkana or something, Holdens are better.

But I agree its totally subjective

[macca_779]

Agreed. Some people automatically think because it is a McPherson strut it must be inferior. Holden have done a brilliant job with the VE's suspension and the fact that it outperforms Ford's more complex and theoretically superior 'double a arm' setup speaks volumes in itself.

Hardly theoretical. The FACT is double A arm hardware and geometry is more advanced, tunable and alot stronger. Hell for parity all those years ago it was decided by TEGA for the Holden V8 Supercars to adopt the Fords front suspension.
Holden has done a very good job with what it has.. But it ain't perfect.


Driven both at the limit and the Holden seems to have more predictable front end grip and is more linear and direct. It should be, it is a "virtual centre" design identical to Bimmers and Mercs, even if it is a mac strut.

The Falcon picked up Virtual Pivot too when it swapped over the the same kind of rack in the Territory. While I agree the Commodore version is good. The Ford has Variable Ratio on top of that which enables lock to lock to be about 2.5 turns which is farking awesome for parking but still retains very good high speed stability.

For the OP. If you want unbiased opinions on the suspension hardware have a read of this
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F1074B1B8752B821CA2573EF0081C132

As the FG is newer than the VE, the article compared alot of the Falcons hardware to that of the VE.

[vecommo]

For the OP. If you want unbiased opinions on the suspension hardware have a read of this
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F1074B1B8752B821CA2573EF0081C132

As the FG is newer than the VE, the article compared alot of the Falcons hardware to that of the VE.

The paragraphs in that article where they are describing the front suspension begin with "Ford says" and "According to Ford".... Hardly unbiased.


Hardly theoretical. The FACT is double A arm hardware and geometry is more advanced, tunable and alot stronger

Thats like saying the Boss V8 is a superior engine to the LSx because OHC is superior/more advanced to pushrod. To hell with the on-paper specifications, it's how it performs in the real world that counts.

I'm not sure where it is, but I remember a video being posted up in which they tested the handling of an FG XR6. In the conclusion they stated the VE had superior dynamics to the FG and that the FG was far from perfect and had a long way to go.

EDIT: I just found it

YouTube - Fulcrum Suspensions FG Falcon Vehicle Testing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocGSGNpIbwY)

[gmh308]

Agreed. Some people automatically think because it is a McPherson strut it must be inferior. Holden have done a brilliant job with the VE's suspension and the fact that it outperforms Ford's more complex and theoretically superior 'double a arm' setup speaks volumes in itself.

And Ford calling it double A arm is a contradiction and a little misleading. It doesnt have a lower A Arm.

Virtual centre uses two completely different independant links. At present made of steel tube/forging. Probably see a switch to aluminium within a year as the weight reduction project takes shape. Unless it gets cancelled.

Kudos to Ford though for going into the technical detail. Holden has been a bit short on the technical aspects of their virtual centre setup.

:)

[CarlFST60L]

IMO:

Pre VE, the fords were certainly more comfortable and nicer as a daily, but once at the limit the VZ's were better i.e. Ford for Comfort, Holden for Performance.

Its a little hard to compare current models for me as I have not pushed the FG to the limit of its handling. I believe the GTS takes the cake with MRC quite easily, then normal VE HSV, after that it becomes hard as I haven't tested the cars enough to make a valid argument. I have spent heaps of time in a Calais and SS and they were pretty good, certainly miles ahead of the pre VE models for comfort and ride quality, and far easier to drive at the limit, far more predictable. Super easy to drive out either side window.

[planetdavo]

I can see this thread trying it's best to warm up a notch...
This question is right up there with oil brands, fuel brands and exhaust brands for having a very high level of "opinion" mixed in with it. Basically, what answer is truely "correct"?
Yes, the Ford has had the "technically" better front suspension design for years, but as anyone in the industry knows, the Ford upper/lower arm design for many many years suffered from seriously premature front tyre wear. This is one example where having the "better" design often doesn't translate into a better real-world design.
Also, a lot of younger buyers want a firmer suspension and a lot of older buyers want a softer suspension, but there will always be a percentage that want the opposite of their demographic, so they are likely to answer that X brand is too soft/too hard for them, in direct opposition to their peers, making the results of what is basically a poll (and on a Holden forum at that!) an interesting read on forum members opinions, but that's about it.

[gmh308]

I can see this thread trying it's best to warm up a notch...
This question is right up there with oil brands, fuel brands and exhaust brands for having a very high level of "opinion" mixed in with it. Basically, what answer is truely "correct"?
Yes, the Ford has had the "technically" better front suspension design for years, but as anyone in the industry knows, the Ford upper/lower arm design for many many years suffered from seriously premature front tyre wear. This is one example where having the "better" design often doesn't translate into a better real-world design.
Also, a lot of younger buyers want a firmer suspension and a lot of older buyers want a softer suspension, but there will always be a percentage that want the opposite of their demographic, so they are likely to answer that X brand is too soft/too hard for them, in direct opposition to their peers, making the results of what is basically a poll (and on a Holden forum at that!) an interesting read on forum members opinions, but that's about it.

You are right there PlanetDavo, and congrats for the effort you put into this Forum mate!

There is really only one way to seperate the subjective (feel/opinion/preference) and the objective: grip, cornering power, behavior over different road surfaces, predictability, accuracy, and that is back to back testing on skid pans, tracks, and real world roads, and compared to an almost viceless benchmark like BM's M3.

One of the mags did something like this a while back, but IIRC they did not get to back to back testing over corrugations.

In my humble experience I was fortunate enough that a good mate let me punt his M3 around a lot of different roads and on the track.

VE Commodore came closest on the corrugations, has amazing front end grip & accuracy, and is certainly better than any Bimmer now that has run flats. Punt one of those RF tired cars through some hard turns with a lot of bad ripples, and the thing gets toward swapping ends. Bleccchhh.

Have a good one. :)

[Ghia351]

When ordering my G6ET I thought of the 19" package however it felt too firm or jiggly esp. over tram tracks which Melb is covered with. My advice, don't pay the extra for it. Since discovered that FG's were never re-tuned for 19". As to which design is better between VE's and FG's, only your backside can tell you.

[Mungrel]

My comparison will be between an AU Ute & VU Ute.

both in stock form, the VU wins for handling imo - thats taking into account the steering feel as well.

[chook]

I suppose it comes down to what you deem by better. For example our commodiores still use fron strutts. They have been around for donkeys!

[Evman]

I suppose it comes down to what you deem by better. For example our commodiores still use fron strutts. They have been around for donkeys!

So does Porsche and I believe some BMW's too.


For the OP. If you want unbiased opinions on the suspension hardware have a read of this
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F1074B1B8752B821CA2573EF0081C132

"Ford says..."
"According to Ford..."
"Ford says..."
"Ford says..."
"According to Ford..."

There are plenty more. The Fulcrum video is probably the closest to an unbiased opinion that we'll ever see.

[gmh308]

I suppose it comes down to what you deem by better. For example our commodiores still use fron strutts. They have been around for donkeys!

Independant A arms have been around longer than Mac struts. :)

Almost all Bimmers use them, similar with Mercs.

Ford brought the Mac strut to market after MacPherson left GM and joined Ford when GM wouldnt not use his idea.

Nothing wrong with Mac struts then, especially with the virtual centre (virtual pivot on Ford), design.

:goodjob:

[Luke_]

I've driven the Fulcrum FG above /\

It was nice, had the works including EDFC front and rear, however the VE's are still ahead.

[bwhinnen]

I can only comment on the BF XR8 and the VE HSV Clubbie as I've owned both. The XR was more comfortable in long distance driving, but the Clubbie is more dynamic and I feel I can throw it around more with confidence than I could with the XR8. Turn in feels much better in the Clubbie and it does feel more settled when cornering. Although they both still feel like big heavy cars (which they are).

I can't really comment on the SS versus XR8 as I haven't had enough time behind the wheel of the SS, but it did feel better at turn in than the BF was. Can't comment on the FG series as I've not driven one.

That is my opinion in it though.

[gmh308]

I've driven the Fulcrum FG above /\

It was nice, had the works including EDFC front and rear, however the VE's are still ahead.

and that's from a suspension expert! :)

[vecommo]

I've driven the Fulcrum FG above /\

It was nice, had the works including EDFC front and rear, however the VE's are still ahead.

Try telling that to the Ford fanboys.

[Martin_D]

First one to cure chronic axle tramp wins :lol: :eek:

[Luke_]

First one to cure chronic axle tramp wins :lol: :eek:
Didn't you achieve this with your metal replacement bushes?

:cool:

[gmh308]

Didn't you achieve this with your metal replacement bushes?

:cool:

Maybe he just means his Merc is better..... :rofl:

[SV346]

Depends what you want, suspension parts going bye bye or suspension parts going to complete buggery, ford holden respectively. Enjoy.