Cam How Big Is Big

[PROPSI]

HELLO,

I am after a little advice very close to purchasing the cam for LS1, i have listen and tried to pick up as much knowledge as i can. I am an old rotary man so my cam knowledge is limitted, all advice welcomed and respected. I am after a cam that will make my car sound like a monter that wants to jump out and assault the car next to it, very angry.:flipoff:

i need help?
>brand "comp cam?"
>best i have heard a 244/242 "not sure meaning" +.610/.608 "i believe this is valve intake and exhaust" + 112lsa "what is lsa"
>what sort of spring upgrade "brand"

i am not worried about fuel or driveablity as it is not a daily driver. iI have viewed a few on you tube so if any one has any footage i would love to see.

YouTube - 2005 GTO 6.0L LS2 Mega Death Cam - No Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlmFbWyNoo)
YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de80hB_-AxU)


cheers Paul

[SirNemesis]

Do you care about the performance, or is the sound your main interest? 24x cams will give you the sound you want, or even 23x with 108-110LSA. Brand doesn't matter too much. If in doubt, stick with Comp.

Is the car auto or manual?

Also, if you care about performance, things like exhaust, heads, fuel system, etc will need attention. A big cam in an otherwise standard car won't give you all that much over a smaller cam.

[PROPSI]

i am looking at doing my car in stages

i have exhaust, mafless, injectors, upgraded throttlebody 248rwkw.
the car is manual.
yes i do want better KW but also want the angry cam as well?
i do not fully yet understand the trade off, and is there a happy ground where i can have both.
the LSA will this give the lumby sound?

once this done heads will be next.

[SirNemesis]

Speak to markone2 about big cams. He loves them. I couldn't bring myself to drive a big cam in a manual car though. 224/228 would be my limit, but I drive mine daily.

The trade off will be where you make the power. Putting the biggest stick you can fit in a car will be great for peak power, but you will lose out at lower revs.

[markone2]

Picture tells a thousand words....a movie even more :)

242x248 cam only *Comp* .11.003 on 98 pump gas / full trim / full exhuast and :driving: home.......NOT dial up friendly

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee4/markone2LRC/th_Willowbanks27-4-06010.jpg (http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee4/markone2LRC/?action=view&current=Willowbanks27-4-06010.flv)

[PROPSI]

hi mark is this what your car has achieved?

what about valve springs?

how was the tune and kw difference?

:goodjob:

[SirNemesis]

Valve springs are a no brainer, and wouldn't hurt to have done even on a standard cam. They don't cost much!

[PROPSI]

so i just purchase best quality in the market.

besides this and a double row timing chain is there anything else i should be thinking about?

[SirNemesis]

Double row timing chain is good insurance, but not essential. Makes the cam swap job a lot more complex too. You'd be better off buying the cam in a package with things like springs, pushrods (and lifters, gaskets, timing chain etc. depending on how complex you want to go).

[markone2]

ARP Rod bolts are a must ..best insurance policy you'll ever buy :)

[PROPSI]

thanks for the heads up guys.

any answers on the balancing act from lumpy agreesive and not losing to much down low? will a low LSA give me this?

[ssdamo]

[QUOTE=markone2;1438908]Picture tells a thousand words....a movie even more :)

242x248 cam only *Comp* .11.003 on 98 pump gas / full trim / full exhuast and :driving: home.......NOT dial up friendly


:yup: that there is the shiznit. hmmm im liking the thought of a 240's cam my self

[camspeed]

Gday Paul

I'm a rotary nut myself so this whole world of cams is very strange to me as well. :lol:

But I'm sure by reading this forum you will learn a lot as I have done.

Cheers
Cam

[PROPSI]

thanks all,

why do some cams have a higher number first eg:244/242 what does this do and mean?

so all seam to be in favor of the bigger cam
242/248 what about valve lift "should these be in .6's" and SLA "what is this and what does it do and mean"

what direction?
what are the different outcomes??
please help me with these questions

cheers Paul


-ex rotary nut "nut being the operative word"
no i use to love them and still have a soft spot, my brother still has his "runs 10's, bastard". I keep letting him know that the only reason he needs a pit crew is so the car can make it down the other end of the track when spits a seal you needs lotsa a friend when you own a ROTA HAHA:smilesandbanana:

[white lie]

We'll take the 244/242, .610/.608, 112LSA you used at the start as an example.

244/242 is the duration of the cam at .050" of lift. So basically its the amount of degrees on the cam that the valve is open. The first number is the intake valve, the second the exhaust. These are what estabblish the power band of the cam. As a rough guide, approximately every 10 degrees more duration will move the power band around 500RPM (give or take). Always try to compare cams at .050" rather than advertised duration, its a much more consistent measurement.

The second set of figures is the lift of the cam. Again, intake first, exhaust second. This is the actual distance that the valve will travel (in this case, .610 of a inch on the intake valve, .608" on the exhaust). They are usually quoted with using a 1.6:1 ratio rocker, so if you change to a different ratio, the lift will change. This is the main factor in making torque. Higher lift means the valve is moving in to the cylinder further, thus getting closer to the piston at TDC so its worth checking you'll have enough piston to valve clearance with the bigger cams.

LSA = Lobe Seperation Angle. This is the distance the centrelines (maximum lift) of the intake and exhaust lobes are apart. This will determine the RPM range of torque. A tighter/smaller LSA will make torque earlier, build quicker, but also disappear quicker. A higher LSA will have a bigger RPM range and usually have better top end. A lower LSA will also usually have a much choppier idle compared to a higher one. But that said, going to the size cam you're looking at, you'll still be able to tell it means business from the idle. Most are around the 108-114 range for a streetable cam.

Anyone please feel free to correct me!

[burninwheels]

We'll take the 244/242, .610/.608, 112LSA you used at the start as an example.

244/242 is the duration of the cam at .050" of lift. So basically its the amount of degrees on the cam that the valve is open. The first number is the intake valve, the second the exhaust. These are what estabblish the power band of the cam. As a rough guide, approximately every 10 degrees more duration will move the power band around 500RPM (give or take). Always try to compare cams at .050" rather than advertised duration, its a much more consistent measurement.

The second set of figures is the lift of the cam. Again, intake first, exhaust second. This is the actual distance that the valve will travel (in this case, .610 of a inch on the intake valve, .608" on the exhaust). They are usually quoted with using a 1.6:1 ratio rocker, so if you change to a different ratio, the lift will change. This is the main factor in making torque. Higher lift means the valve is moving in to the cylinder further, thus getting closer to the piston at TDC so its worth checking you'll have enough piston to valve clearance with the bigger cams.

LSA = Lobe Seperation Angle. This is the distance the centrelines (maximum lift) of the intake and exhaust lobes are apart. This will determine the RPM range of torque. A tighter/smaller LSA will make torque earlier, build quicker, but also disappear quicker. A higher LSA will have a bigger RPM range and usually have better top end. A lower LSA will also usually have a much choppier idle compared to a higher one. But that said, going to the size cam you're looking at, you'll still be able to tell it means business from the idle. Most are around the 108-114 range for a streetable cam.

Anyone please feel free to correct me!

I think you mean 1.7 ratio not 1.6.

[wally01]

I have this cam in small block 350 just as an example .

WADE Cam 262@50 .510 lift on a 106 LSA ,it idles around 1800 rpm to 2200 rpm if you know what a Nascar sounds like at idle thats what this sounded like very very very rough or choppy i guess you could say ,very usable just the same .
This is a cam i got many years back ,engine was used in a boat and went the the clappers and so did the amount of fuel it drank.

Power well it lights up at around 4800 rpm to i have no idea where .

I know it's not for an LS1 but as an example on LSA 106 seperation.probably not friendly on the street ,but who cares ,it made people look just the same in the boat .
I was going to put it in a HQ was told back then that a 3500 to 4000 converter was the go ,then i had to shift house and had no time the rest is history.

[tanka5.7]

you'd want atleast a 5k convertor behind that

[Evman]

Seriously wouldn't get a big cam without the heads. As mentioned you wont be getting the power you deserve without doing both at once, but you'll also have to pay for 2 tuning sessions and that's just a waste. My advice is hold off until you can do both heads and cam :)

[MYT_05]

Also stall if its auto, and gears.

No point a big cam/head combo without a stall.

232/234 with heads, 3.89gears and 4000rpm stall. Runs 11.21 on street tyres (not MT's) in the VP HSV.

[hsv_wagon]

has anyone got a big cam in an ls? i'm talking 270@50 +

240@50 is a baby :jester:

[vyc4b]

Seriously wouldn't get a big cam without the heads. As mentioned you wont be getting the power you deserve without doing both at once, but you'll also have to pay for 2 tuning sessions and that's just a waste. My advice is hold off until you can do both heads and cam :)

I totally agree........

[STATIE]

has anyone got a big cam in an ls? i'm talking 270@50 +

240@50 is a baby :jester:

Not quite but nearly in my 346 ute - not a daily though by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd say there would be a few in the bigger strokers.

[ebbett21]

Mate,
If your after the lumpy cam sound comp have those Thumper Cams for the LS Engines that give a big lumpy idle without going to huge in cam size.
Im not sure its wise going to big in a 346 cubic inch. Alot of 232/234 cammed cars on this site u may check that cam out too

[smokiebbear]

A big cam like you are talking about means you will never be able to drive past a petrol station without pulling in to get fuel, never feeling safe on the road cause as soon as a copper pulls up next to you your farked. Ring a few sponsers and see if they have any they are currently doing and if you can pop by to have a listen to some at idle and discuss with them what you hope to acheive from your car. At the end of the day the forum is full of keyboard know it alls and boolshyte artists. There are some good sponsers out there who will tell you straight up as it is and back it up with a guarantee if they can't produce the goods. Don't be fooled by what you read on here as many that swear by huge cams only have them as they use their vehicle as often as possible to race at the track and as mentioned i'll bet you they have little brown stains in their undies everytime they see a police car.

Personally i'd go a high 22x or low to mid 23x for a street driven car as would a majority of the others here on the forum if your not looking at it becoming a weekend only track car.

[markone2]

A big cam like you are talking about means you will never be able to drive past a petrol station without pulling in to get fuel, never feeling safe on the road cause as soon as a copper pulls up next to you your farked. At the end of the day the forum is full of keyboard know it alls and boolshyte artists. There are some good sponsers out there who will tell you straight up as it is and back it up with a guarantee if they can't produce the goods. Don't be fooled by what you read on here as many that swear by huge cams only have them as they use their vehicle as often as possible to race at the track and as mentioned i'll bet you they have little brown stains in their undies everytime they see a police car.

Personally i'd go a high 22x or low to mid 23x for a street driven car as would a majority of the others here on the forum if your not looking at it becoming a weekend only track car.


Was not at my invitation , or the Police for that matter ,but that red SV8 that causes you so much concern lately was recently presented at DARRA TRANSPORT complete with 242x248 Comp and heavily massaged massaged Dart 225 Heads....Full pass and all over in 20 minutes...gives a whole new insight on internet boolshyte artists don't it ?
As the saying goes.a little knowledge can be dangerous...more so when its 3rd hand imho

Fuel in LRC steady at exactly 19L per 100K.. includes all track work...:goodjob: for a 10.7 driver

[hsv_wagon]

i have a 272@50 in my torana (sbc) and a mate has a 286@50 in his holden engined 383.but these are weekenders,

anything 240 and under is fine in a properly tuned daily....has been for me for that last couple of years :)

[smokiebbear]

Was not at my invitation , or the Police for that matter ,but that red SV8 that causes you so much concern lately was recently presented at DARRA TRANSPORT complete with 242x248 Comp and heavily massaged massaged Dart 225 Heads....Full pass and all over in 20 minutes...gives a whole new insight on internet boolshyte artists don't it ?
As the saying goes.a little knowledge can be dangerous...more so when its 3rd hand imho

Fuel in LRC steady at exactly 19L per 100K.. includes all track work...:goodjob: for a 10.7 driver

Sorry mark but i may have misread your post. Are you suggesting that the red SV8 is causing ME concern?

What happened to you was below an act of a mangy flee bitten dog and whoever sent the EPA knocking on your door needs a floggin harder than a 16yr old with a room full or porn can flog himself.

Having said that I do not believe your car would have passed in it's normal street driven form based on your mods eg : exhaust.

And yes the internet is full of boolshyte artists although that implication was not directed at you. It was directed at all the know alls that post on here about big cammed cars without realising the implications driving one of these cars will bring you, which you have recently found out for yourself.

One question though ... would you have such a big stick in you car if you didn't use it at the track all the time? We all know your cars are street driven but they are set up to run big numbers and quick times for the track. Not everyone is out to do a few hundred passes a year at the track so they would not need such a big stick for their ride however you are always quick to suggest bigger is better even if they never intend to make a single pass down the quarter.

[markone2]

One question though ... would you have such a big stick in you car if you didn't use it at the track all the time? We all know your cars are street driven but they are set up to run big numbers and quick times for the track. Not everyone is out to do a few hundred passes a year at the track so they would not need such a big stick for their ride however you are always quick to suggest bigger is better even if they never intend to make a single pass down the quarter.


Fair enough ,

I think you’ll find my street only recommendations run along the lines of that well proven mid 11 second 232x234 Comp as ran in the Cam only Limo Caprice when it comes to street duties……..
Track ? well …the big boy 242x248 has answered all comers ..an then some imho…


.

[tanka5.7]

the bloke said it was a weekender, so put a huge one in it!

[smokiebbear]

the bloke said it was a weekender, so put a huge one in it!

Haha he also said it was Manual ... 23x maximum i'd reckon.

[PROPSI]

thanks for the discussion, and at times debate? its all healthy and helpful.

i do not want to wait for the heads, i maybe 9 months away and i am ready for the cam now!

Mark i believe i might have seen your car?sounds tough and also sounds a bit over on the Decibals? but not that this would bother me ias t goes with the territory and once you have been a ROTA owner you bin this concern.

smokie/mark a question why do some cams have a larger intake "244/242" than exhaust
visa vesa "242/244" and some are excatly the same "232/232

what are the benifits or difference between these?
remember fuel cost don't care/not a daily driver, will eventually have heads and 408 bottom end, this is first stage of the plan?

cheers

[HRT 8]

smokie/mark a question why do some cams have a larger intake "244/242" than exhaust
visa vesa "242/244" and some are excatly the same "232/232

what are the benifits or difference between these?
remember fuel cost don't care/not a daily driver, will eventually have heads and 408 bottom end, this is first stage of the plan?

cheers
A traditional split ie 222/224 verses a reverse split relies soley on the valve events, engine combo, head flow, inlet flow and many other factors.
LS1/2 engines love a fairly traditional split pattern. Ie exhaust slighty less than the exhaust.
While the L76/98 and LS3 which come equipped with much better heads and larger inlet valve appear to like a larger split which favours the exhaust events.

[r8ls1]

i need help?
>brand "comp cam?"

cheers Paul

Comp cam is one of the best, but not the best. I had a 230/590 "Cam Motion" grind from Futral Motorsports. Futral have proven their cam motion cams to be 10 -15hp better than equivalent size comp cam. I picked up 6mph with cnc heads and the cam motion over the previous 224 comp cam *cam only*. I remeber at the time some of Futrals cammed cars were the fastest in USA, so i bought one and it seemed to do the job.

Cam Motion was a more specialised valvetrain maker, rather than more the mass produced comp cams company.

[PROPSI]

i struggle to understand how a cam with the same spec's can create better hp, you would think they would be identical?

or am i missing something?
what about local cam manufacturers eg:higgens and the like?

[r8ls1]

The cam lobes are different. Max lift and duration are not the only thing that play a part. Me I would get one from the USA. each to their own. Try a Futral cam. Far as I know I was the only one here who had one. Pity we didnt have a track where i lived at the time to see its potential. i had 3 half assed runs at only one meet and did best 11.6 @ 119.11 mph (backed it up with 119mph all 3 runs) with a sad 1.6 somthing 60ft on all runs (no traction). was a full weight vt r8, auto with 4000 stall, stock 346 engine, stock ls6 intake, stock ported TB. only mods was the heads, cam, underdrive pulley, and pacemaker 1 3/4 headers. I think that cam was good.

[markone2]

i do not want to wait for the heads, i maybe 9 months away and i am ready for the cam now!

Mark i believe i might have seen your car?sounds tough and also sounds a bit over on the Decibals? but not that this would bother me ias t goes with the territory and once you have been a ROTA owner you bin this concern.


cheers

Best pm and come for a drive...:)


.

[SVNLTR]

i struggle to understand how a cam with the same spec's can create better hp, you would think they would be identical?

or am i missing something?
what about local cam manufacturers eg:higgens and the like?

Some times it best to try it and put the books and internet in the bin

if it works it works

their is some things that you just can't explain-

i have noticed lately these small baby cams-

it's cool but when i spend $600.00 on just a cam -well its got to go and get my moneys worth and haul ass or else i will drive me stock hi-lux around- (thats me)

i will drive anything around and if i can't drive it i will leave it stock-

not having a go but you asked a very good question which some will try and answer-

[vyc4b]

The cam lobes are different. Max lift and duration are not the only thing that play a part. Me I would get one from the USA. each to their own. Try a Futral cam. Far as I know I was the only one here who had one. Pity we didnt have a track where i lived at the time to see its potential. i had 3 half assed runs at only one meet and did best 11.6 @ 119.11 mph (backed it up with 119mph all 3 runs) with a sad 1.6 somthing 60ft on all runs (no traction). was a full weight vt r8, auto with 4000 stall, stock 346 engine, stock ls6 intake, stock ported TB. only mods was the heads, cam, underdrive pulley, and pacemaker 1 3/4 headers. I think that cam was good.

That's good going mate, well done.


I haven't heard of Higgins making a Cam as such........:confused:
Cheers.

[PROPSI]

vyc4bhttp://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=140301022416

have a look, sorry do not know much about VIC engine builders. i have heard they do good stuff as do COME seen the ad and put 1 and 1 together.


mark thanks for the offer i would like to see your car in more detail i will PM you.:smilesandbanana:

has anyone known anyone that has bout a new COMP THUMPER cam
235/249 .573/.558 LSA 109

[Oztrack Tuning]

Cams get too big when they simply dont work because of the manifold being used or the stock heads or exhaust system dont flow enough. HOWEVER having said that Markone2 has proved it all wrong by running a cam above 242 and having it work well a few years ago, however some good heads and a Fast 90mm made it work even better.

I have tuned Willems car with a 242 248 and 8 throttle bodies, i can tell you that it still pulls well in the mid range and wants to spin like fast past 7000rpm. This is what a good manifold does for a big cam.

[PROPSI]

OZ
thanks for that i have heard and read some good stuff about yourself. i have struggled and phathom the cost for the fast gear against result "kw's"unless it was a FI setup!

however your saying the cam will need a larger intake to produce it's potential. In addition once i have the heads then the cam will really earn it's keep.

what are peoples thoughts on RWKW with a sizable cam upgrade with
springs
u/pully
lifters and
p/rods

is 50 rwkw unreasonable? :confused:

[GTS_365]

OZ
thanks for that i have heard and read some good stuff about yourself. i have struggled and phathom the cost for the fast gear against result "kw's"unless it was a FI setup!

however your saying the cam will need a larger intake to produce it's potential. In addition once i have the heads then the cam will really earn it's keep.

what are peoples thoughts on RWKW with a sizable cam upgrade with
springs
u/pully
lifters and
p/rods

is 50 rwkw unreasonable? :confused:

Depending on cam size, anywhere between 30-50rwkw should be expected. Changing heads will increase by another 15rwkw.

[Oztrack Tuning]

We saw 312rwkw recently with hand ported 241 heads in a LS1 with a 224 228 112 cam. If it had expensive CNC'd heads i wouldnt expect over 325rwkw and if it had a 240 cam it might not have been much higher. The manifold then would hold things back. Power under the curve from 4000rpm to 7000rpm i dont believe is gained by a 240 cam over the 224 228 112. BUT the illusion of heaps more up top is created by the contrast between what is happening at 5000rpm and then what happens at 6500rpm.

BUT you put on 8TB and its a different story. A ported Fast 90mm is a mid way solution.

My advice in terms of spending cash is to avoid Fast 90mm and expensive heads. Spend on a Vortec as the cheapest FI option and gain heaps morem power, then still play with the big cam if you want a weapon.

Tonners ute has a F1 Procharger 18psi through a 228 230 cam and made 516rwkw plus confirmed it with 144mph off just a 1.84 60 footer.

Building a solid NA car is expensive. I spent around $5000 on a better manifold and heads to gain less than 0.1s when a second hand vortec might have given the car close to a full second.

We see 35rwkw gained most of the time from a cam swap and then another 15rwkw from hand ported LS1 heads. I havent seen bigger cams on stock heads and manifold much better than 35rwkw.

[PROPSI]

thanks!

sounds like good advice and from someone with sound knowledge.

are you saying heads with FI but not expensive heads as this maybe a waste of KW and just focus on a good FI set up with less expensive heads?

and will a large cam hold up on a FI set up or is this also wasted?

thanks for the advise.

[Oztrack Tuning]

Its just prioritizing money spent. Better heads would be better with the blower as well, and the same with a fast 92mm. But its trading off possible money spent on expensive heads and manfolds that could go into blower.

Others have different and valid experiences to me, especially Markone2 and Leatherman who pioneered by cammed cam only cars that are fast. So gather their info and make a choice. The key thing to choose is a path if you want to save money and get a result at the same time.

[PROPSI]

mark can you give me a PM as i would like to talk with about possible cam set up.

thanks for the advice OZ.

[VR304]

mark can you give me a PM as i would like to talk with about possible cam set up.

thanks for the advice OZ.

markone2 ... I'm interested in your opinion as to an M6 setup with a cam, and cam with heads ... how big you would go. Assuming 3.9 diff gears - would you still be recommending 230+ duration cams assuming daily duties.

[PROPSI]

it's not a daily driver!

are your thoughts that it will be to aggressive for a manual?

[Pepps]

As some of you may know Im searching for a cam for my LS1 5.7L
Ive started a few threads relating to fuel consumption etc but I want to find the right cam with the right specs!

The car will have the following supporting mods

Twin 3" xforce catback exhaust
4 into 1 extractors
3" high flow ballistic cats
CHE OTR

I want a nice lumpy sounding cam, without the fuel bill blowing out of proportion!

The trouble I have is I have no idea about cam specs and so fourth.

Can anyone tell me what the following mean?

112 vs 114 LSA (lobe seperation angle) What is the difference between 112 and 114? Is one better suited for manual?

What spec cam should I be looking at?
It will be used for street only and as a daily driver.

Im hoping for around 280rwkw once tuned.

What are the differences between these cams?

224/228 112LSA
224/230 114LSA
228/230 112 & 114LSA

Should I be looking for something around the .580+ valve lift?

Ive heard the 918 springs are rubbish, are PAC1218 or 1518 springs suitable?

Its a 6 speed manual too.

Love the help guys, I want to hurry up and buy the cam from overseas and get her fitted and tuned up

Here are a couple Ive been looking at

http://www.speedtweekerz.com/index.p...mart&Itemid=26

http://www.speedtweekerz.com/index.p...mart&Itemid=26

[BigRobL76]

grab a copy of street commodores issue 156 and 158. got pictures and everything. two good articles on cams. explains all those numbers and acronyms.

[Lincoln87]

As some of you may know Im searching for a cam for my LS1 5.7L
Ive started a few threads relating to fuel consumption etc but I want to find the right cam with the right specs!

The car will have the following supporting mods

Twin 3" xforce catback exhaust
4 into 1 extractors
3" high flow ballistic cats
CHE OTR

.........

....





WOW!! this is exactly what i wanna do.. cept with a 6.0L. hopefully.
otherwise yes, witha 5.7

good read, cant wait to get a V8 let along a cam