View Full Version : Vectras 2003 onwards
pepper0481
23-02-2009, 10:27 AM
Hi, I am looking at getting a 03 Vectra or later, they seem like pretty nice cars but I was wondering if many people have had any problems with them and if so what?
I was looking at productreview.com and there were a few dislikes about the car in terms of reliability, most of the cars im looking at are 80,000km plus on the clock so is there anything I should be looking out for when taking it for a test drive or under the bonnet?
Thanks for any help :)
Marco
23-02-2009, 11:16 AM
My parents have an 03 CDX with 70k on board and it's been fine. Only issues I can remember is that the winscreen washer reservoir broke off its mountings, the cruise control stopped working for a while and I think there was some sort of recall on the auto transmission to fix a problem that would have coolant potentially getting in (or something like that; I don't have the details to hand).
The only other thing I would mention is that my parents have always looked after their cars properly but the interior looks a bit tatty - the finish is peeling off a lot of the plastic surfaces which is starting to make it look a bit nasty inside.
Otherwise, good cars.
Hi Octane
23-02-2009, 11:32 AM
vectras, Astras both hunks of shit, Ask any mechanic.
Various common problems, water pumps, coils, transmissions, Lot better car out there for the $$$$$$, Think Japaneese.
SS Enforcer
23-02-2009, 11:49 AM
vectras, Astras both hunks of shit, Ask any mechanic.
Various common problems, water pumps, coils, transmissions, Lot better car out there for the $$$$$$, Think Japaneese.
We have a 3 year old Astra that has done 50k and it's still perfect . I mean the car hasn't even broken a lightbulb yet. It doesn't rattle and everything works perfectly. We have it serviced at Winmalee Car Care once a year and I can't fault it at all.
So far the Astra is shaping up as the best car for reliability and low cost motoring I have ever seen let alone owned. If the Vectra is half as good it's probably a good car as well.
cheers
Hi Octane
23-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Lucky, So no rotors, coil packs, air cond compressors yet???
Always an exception to the rule.
mac06
23-02-2009, 12:08 PM
We have a CD V6 Vectra and it's gone very well in the 3 years we've had it. Only one small computer glitch that was fixed under warranty in 2 hours. It's been a great car. Just bear in mind that the cam belt needs replacing at 120,000kms or 8 years and that'll cost you around $1,500
Party Pete
23-02-2009, 12:20 PM
A friend of mine had a V6 Vectra for several years. The car was fine with the only problem being a steering rack issue very early on which was fixed under warranty.
Big_Valven
23-02-2009, 12:28 PM
I've driven a 2003 Manual CDXi (155KW 3.6 V6) and I was hugely impressed. The engine is fantastically revvy and the kit was second to none at that age. Headroom in the back beats my VX :bawl: I imagine the manual CDXi's are a bit rare though, but so much fun!
This one had to have a full engine rebuild at 70,000kms worth $10K due to oil consumption... would have been good to buy due to having a fresh motor but my situation didn't turn out that way.
I still cry when I see a silver (or especially black) CDXi around. They really are a little caprice.
SS Enforcer
23-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Lucky, So no rotors, coil packs, air cond compressors yet???
Always an exception to the rule.
Nope Nope and Nope the car hasn't so much as hiccuped since we bought it.
cheers
OLDYELLA65
23-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Lucky, So no rotors, coil packs, air cond compressors yet???
Always an exception to the rule.
We had an '04 for 3 yrs and again the exception to the rule!!!
Absolultley no probs as well ...so much so I'd buy another!!!
It's a lottery.....Hows your VE been???:)...Be honest now!!!!
Yella
Hi Octane
23-02-2009, 12:39 PM
Ve's as you would expect from an Australian built car. blown shock, Rattle steering wheel, Rattle on hard lock........ Just waitin for 2k to click up.
OLDYELLA65
23-02-2009, 12:45 PM
Ve's as you would expect from an Australian built car. blown shock, Rattle steering wheel, Rattle on hard lock........ Just waitin for 2k to click up.
:rofl::rofl:.....:goodjob:
Hi Octane
23-02-2009, 12:48 PM
:rofl::rofl:.....:goodjob:
I know it's a hunk & im not imagining anything else, The things assembled by a bunch of blokes that just want to get home & punch a bong or have a beer.
Not wanting to start a flame war but im realistic. :yup:
GODSMACK
23-02-2009, 12:49 PM
I know it's a hunk & im not imagining anything else, The things assembled by a bunch of blokes that just want to get home & punch a bong or have a beer.
Not wanting to start a flame war but im realistic. :yup: And whats wrong with that?
:)
SVNLTR
23-02-2009, 12:59 PM
I've driven a 2003 Manual CDXi (155KW 3.6 V6) and I was hugely impressed. The engine is fantastically revvy and the kit was second to none at that age. Headroom in the back beats my VX :bawl: I imagine the manual CDXi's are a bit rare though, but so much fun!
This one had to have a full engine rebuild at 70,000kms worth $10K due to oil consumption... would have been good to buy due to having a fresh motor but my situation didn't turn out that way.
I still cry when I see a silver (or especially black) CDXi around. They really are a little caprice.
They are very nice and i am in the process of doing one for my Mum-
silver- cdxi-
i bought one with light damaged-had 1,500 kays on it-
Just waiting on a other damaged vechile-
i have worked on all of them even cruze's-they need attention to belts,oils and water or else they will die in the ass-
so far my sisters astra done a power steer pump in 6 years-(not bad for a 1.8)
They don't drink much petrol
Hi Octane
23-02-2009, 01:09 PM
And whats wrong with that?
:)
:diddy: Nothin..... :)
pepper0481
23-02-2009, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, hopefully I will get an exception too lol
Stormin
23-02-2009, 01:43 PM
Nope Nope and Nope the car hasn't so much as hiccuped since we bought it.
cheers
Same here. TS Astra with 130k with none of the mentioned problems. Only problems were radiator (recent leak), ignition barrel (known fault) and clutch pulley on alternator. Only just replaced the brake pads (rotors fine). Great drive and economical.
Pickles
23-02-2009, 05:01 PM
vectras, Astras both hunks of shit, Ask any mechanic.
Various common problems, water pumps, coils, transmissions, Lot better car out there for the $$$$$$, Think Japaneese.
Disagree, particularly with respect to the TS AStra..
I like the late model vectras..a CDXI would be great, although, I have to say that I have heard, that they can be expensive to fix if something goes wrong. So, as far as the Vectra is concerned, get it checked out by someone that knows Vectras. A great car...as long as you get a good one!
Don't know where you get your info on the Astra. We bought a TS Astra Classic new in 2005, & the ONLY problem we've had in 70ks is a squeaking front seat when new, quickly fixed by the dealer.....It's a great little car, very well finished, comfortable, no rattles, & very reliable. I'd recommend a TS Astra to anyone.
Cheers, Pickles.
lowriding
23-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Well we had a manual ZC CDXi from 3k to 130k (bought as a demo) over 5 years ,driven equally between my wife and myself. Almost faultless - glovebox light , fixed under warranty .In that time still had original disc rotors , original battery ,original clutch - everything ,2 sets of pads ,original Goodyear Eagles went 55k. these are really great cars to own and drive ,with very advanced features i still see lacking in others .In our experience it's very safe , solid and very reliable car .It also took a huge rear hit from a 5 ton pantech truck like a champion ,a current model Liberty sustained far greater damage in that same accident from similar impact and was written off ,and the driver was injured . Every Euro car in this country gets accused that they cost an arm and leg to maintain ,but they are no more costly than any other in reality . In my cars I have found the Japanese makes have been by far the most expensive for servicing and parts ,in particular Nissan and Honda .
regards:)
blackbettyhsv
23-02-2009, 06:17 PM
here's our 03 vectra cdxi coming up to 3 years now, touch wood no great dramas so far.
but yes they can be expensive to fix ( but like most things they have to break down first), I have mentioned ours b4 with sunroof & manual gearbox & better leather than my VE clubby, the seat warmers are bloody great. only issues we have are the cruise does'nt work sometimes & the heater/aircon fan control switch if you try to turn it off too fast it wont do it, we have to turn the knob slowly.
and as one bloke mentioned they do look a bit like a statesman, we drove some friends home a good while back the hubby liked it so much he brought hid wife one, but the poor buggers lost it in the gippsland bushfires.
funny how people knock these cars but fail to mention the expense of mercs & beamers which my sister has a X5 lol bloody service bill is a joke, but that is her choice. we wont be selling ours for a toyota or mazda thats for surehttp://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/black_bettyhsv/traceysnewrims003.jpg
chris_vysv8
23-02-2009, 06:20 PM
I have to agree with those stating the TS Astra can be problematic. I had a TS Turbo for just 2.5 years, in that time I had blown alternator, water pump bearing failed and exhaust manifold leak. All of these were very expensive to fix. Also the interior wore very badly (and I'm very gentle to my cars) and developed many annoying rattles. It's a cheap small car built in Poland... to be expected really.
As for the 03+ Vectra... do you watch Top Gear? Jeremy in particular has a very low opinion of the Vectra (or as he calls it, the V-word). His criticism centers mainly on its awful handling however (maybe not an issue if you're not going to drive like your pants are on fire...)
lowriding
23-02-2009, 07:31 PM
Blackbetty each their own but i preferred the original wheels which not only look better but are also high quality german Borbets !
http://www.nextcar.com.au/i.holden.vectra.cdxi.04jan.jpg
As for the 03+ Vectra... do you watch Top Gear? Jeremy in particular has a very low opinion of the Vectra (or as he calls it, the V-word). His criticism centers mainly on its awful handling however (maybe not an issue if you're not going to drive like your pants are on fire...)
funny all the local guys raved about the chassis ! lol at quoting Top Gear and taking clarkson as a serious journalist ,even he would laugh at that . In his own words its fluff and entertainment and only a fool would take him seriously (no offence). He also hates the Porsche 911 GT2 btw ! he hates every opel/vauxhall , hates Australia ,hates Americans etc
regards
chris_vysv8
23-02-2009, 07:48 PM
funny all the local guys raved about the chassis ! lol at quoting Top Gear and taking clarkson as a serious journalist ,even he would laugh at that . In his own words its fluff and entertainment and only a fool would take him seriously (no offence). He also hates the Porsche 911 GT2 btw ! he hates every opel/vauxhall , hates Australia ,hates Americans etc
Not quite true... there is one Vauxhall he doesn't hate - the Vauxhall Monaro! :bravo:
blackbettyhsv
23-02-2009, 08:50 PM
[QUOTE=lowriding;1445486]Blackbetty each their own but i preferred the original wheels which not only look better but are also high quality german Borbets !
funny I got the rims for the missus for our 25th wedding anniversary present being silver(chrome), but she likes the originals better.
maybe if someone is interested I will sell them & put the originals back on.
ratter
23-02-2009, 09:00 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned they go through pads and rotors, front and rear in a very short period
SVNLTR
23-02-2009, 09:11 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned they go through pads and rotors, front and rear in a very short period
astra's yes-but not the vectra's not even the jr.,js vectra's-
How many kays are we talking about here?
ratter
23-02-2009, 09:12 PM
yes vectra's as well - possibly 50,000 klms, even driven by older drivers that don't brake hard or ride brakes.
SVNLTR
23-02-2009, 09:19 PM
yes vectra's as well - possibly 50,000 klms, even driven by older drivers that don't brake hard or ride brakes.
Fair enough-my sisters astra goes threw brakes-well i noticed more towards the back then front-
can't say on the vectra's-
Have you noticed that?
ratter
23-02-2009, 09:22 PM
yeah I see a few vectras and astra's come through work, original equipment pads and rotors seem to last 40-50k, after market items will go a bit further though and not normally as dirty
SS Enforcer
24-02-2009, 02:49 AM
It's a cheap small car built in Poland... to be expected really.
Our AH Astra was built in Belgium so that may be why it's so good. It's very solid and nothing has come off or broken yet.
cheers
smokey777
24-02-2009, 03:18 AM
hates Americans etc
who doesnt??
chris_vysv8
24-02-2009, 09:04 AM
Our AH Astra was built in Belgium so that may be why it's so good. It's very solid and nothing has come off or broken yet.
Correct... production was moved to Belgium after the TS model run was finished.
Marco
24-02-2009, 11:34 AM
No; most TS Astras were built in Belgium as well. The only ones built in Poland were the TS Classic models sold in 04-05 alongside the newer AH.
Just to add another two cents worth, I had an '01 TS from new that I put 164k on in five and a half years and very little went wrong - faulty CAS fairly early on, power mirror adjuster failed, a couple of rattles. Absolutely nothing serious, would recommend.
I've got a silver '05 (MY05 upgrade) CDXi auto.
Love it to bits. No dramas so far.
Strong performer, surprisingly frugal (especially on long trips - easily get 800km+ from a tank), comfortable and very well equipped. Love the deep, throaty burble build to a crackling snarl as it winds out to the redline when you keep the auto in manual mode.
The auto transmission is adaptive and is fairly smooth, although you can notice the converter lock in third - almost like another gear change, making it six in total!
No issues with brakes, tyre wear or anything that would be out of the ordinary on a car of this age.
Gripes? Well, it isn't that easy to see out the rear 3/4 when reversing and if you think the VE has thick A pillars, you can bet the idea came from the ZC. The operation of the HVAC, on-board computer and ICE system is a menu driven nightmare but becomes second nature once you learn its idiosyncracies. The chrome spear grille is ugly and I will soon replace it with an Irmscher insert.
Love the heated seats in winter, the 9 speaker stereo is fantastic, the aircon is immediately effective and the hatch area is enormous.
Its got all the safety gear, including 6 airbags, ABS, TC, CBC, EBA and ESP+. It is well built, solid as a rock and well sealed against dust. Quiet cruiser and day-to-day a well mannered, supple riding handler. When pushed hard (and I mean HARD) it will understeer wide of the mark.
Would I buy another?
Yeah. In a hearbeat.
pepper0481
24-02-2009, 03:29 PM
Great to hear your enjoying yours :)
I still haven't made up my mind to buy one yet, I was talking to a mechanic from Holden and he was saying he won't touch Vectras they are to much of a hassle, main gripe was the radiator cools both the engine and the transmission so come summer time the Vectras like to over heat easily and too often head gaskets blown and other problems.
Anyone else had any of these problems?
I should point out he was also a salesman lol he then went on trying to sell me a used Pulsar.
iloveholden
24-02-2009, 03:46 PM
No offense mate but i reckon put the original wheels back on....will look classey :)
chris_vysv8
24-02-2009, 04:05 PM
I have to confess, I was seriously considering buying a Vectra CDXi a few years ago when I was looking to replace my VY SV8. However I think after a V8 the Vectra would just feel too darn slow :jester:
planetdavo
24-02-2009, 06:49 PM
Great to hear your enjoying yours :)
I still haven't made up my mind to buy one yet, I was talking to a mechanic from Holden and he was saying he won't touch Vectras they are to much of a hassle, main gripe was the radiator cools both the engine and the transmission so come summer time the Vectras like to over heat easily and too often head gaskets blown and other problems.
Anyone else had any of these problems?
You tend to find that most mechanics that are dealership employeed wont recommend their product.
Reason being they spend all day, every day fixing either major issues or else minor sooky "new car" whinges to the point of being sick of the sight of them.
Go to a multi-franchise dealership, and the same mechanic wont recommend several brands! See the pattern?
I think your mate might need a lesson in understanding virtually every car on the road with an auto runs a radiator mounted trans cooler...:) Engine dramas are very rare.
ZC's are pretty reliable. Some V6 models split a radiator connection which destroyed the auto, but a recall was done to fix that, so of no real concern these days. I'd recommend them, subject to a thorough inspection (as should any car).
blackbettyhsv
24-02-2009, 06:54 PM
yes vectra's as well - possibly 50,000 klms, even driven by older drivers that don't brake hard or ride brakes.
geez I must be bloody lucky I just checked our service book, we have serviced our vectra since 3 06 which was its 45.000 k service, now it has 92.000 k's on the clock & we still have'nt changed pads or rotors. but looking at the rotors they do have a slight lip on the top edge of the rotor,so it wont be far off I guess, but you did say possibly,
wrx's are a lot harder on pads & rotors or is it the way my mate drives he seems to change his every third service is that right.
planetdavo
24-02-2009, 06:57 PM
ZC's are pretty good for rotor life, but just like tyres, brake pads and driver's floor mats, some people go through them seriously faster than others.
ratter
24-02-2009, 08:44 PM
geez I must be bloody lucky I just checked our service book, we have serviced our vectra since 3 06 which was its 45.000 k service, now it has 92.000 k's on the clock & we still have'nt changed pads or rotors. but looking at the rotors they do have a slight lip on the top edge of the rotor,so it wont be far off I guess, but you did say possibly,
wrx's are a lot harder on pads & rotors or is it the way my mate drives he seems to change his every third service is that right.
you've either had a good run or they were possibly replaced before the 45,000 klm which again in not uncommon.
Please don't get me wrong, I think they are a good car. :eyes:
pepper0481
24-02-2009, 08:44 PM
You tend to find that most mechanics that are dealership employeed wont recommend their product.
Reason being they spend all day, every day fixing either major issues or else minor sooky "new car" whinges to the point of being sick of the sight of them.
Go to a multi-franchise dealership, and the same mechanic wont recommend several brands! See the pattern?
I think your mate might need a lesson in understanding virtually every car on the road with an auto runs a radiator mounted trans cooler...:) Engine dramas are very rare.
ZC's are pretty reliable. Some V6 models split a radiator connection which destroyed the auto, but a recall was done to fix that, so of no real concern these days. I'd recommend them, subject to a thorough inspection (as should any car).
Thanks, this was the advice I was looking for :)
blackbettyhsv
25-02-2009, 05:08 AM
you've either had a good run or they were possibly replaced before the 45,000 klm which again in not uncommon.
Please don't get me wrong, I think they are a good car. :eyes:
it's ok I understand what your warning pepper0481 about, but if he does look at one it sounds like he should go for a manual V6.
OPPYLOCK
25-02-2009, 07:57 AM
My wife has had an 04 CDXi auto for the past 4 years. No hassels mechanically.It seems to like regular oil changes. Few small electrical glitches as others have mentioned. Still on original rotors at 115kms but yes they have had it and need doing. And no the brakes certainly don't get an easy time when I drive it. We just had the cambelt done at Holden, about $1900 for memory.
Its a nice car to drive, its quick, handles well for a bum dragger and good on fuel. Amazing boot space too. You would be surprised the amount of stuff you can get in there.
I would definately recommend the manual if you like driving at all.
Oh forgot to mention and surprised no one else has. The plastic strip under the front bumper is exactly one inch too low to clear any speed humps, gutters etc. Expect to rip it off every now and again.
bonners
25-02-2009, 09:41 AM
They are known to have auto 'box' problems. My CDXi had a box replaced under warranty. Other than that, mine was perfect. Overall build quality was alot better than my new commodore.
lowriding
25-02-2009, 06:03 PM
Its a nice car to drive, its quick, handles well for a bum dragger and good on fuel. Amazing boot space too. You would be surprised the amount of stuff you can get in there.
I would definately recommend the manual if you like driving at all.
Oh forgot to mention and surprised no one else has. The plastic strip under the front bumper is exactly one inch too low to clear any speed humps, gutters etc. Expect to rip it off every now and again.
X2 , yeah that black plastic bumper extension thing under the front is too low and caught on our driveway all the time :)
planetdavo
25-02-2009, 06:37 PM
They are known to have auto 'box' problems. My CDXi had a box replaced under warranty. Other than that, mine was perfect. Overall build quality was alot better than my new commodore.
The "known" problem was coolant getting in to the auto and frying the internal module. The fix for this was the recall I mentioned earlier.
blackbettyhsv
25-02-2009, 07:01 PM
that reminds me when I got the difillipo exhaust fitted on my ve clubby at G&D I went back in the vectra to pick up the original exhaust, laid down the back seats & it went in with about 1 inch to spare.
thought I was gonna have to stick it out the sunroof at first.
Amazing boot space too. You would be surprised the amount of stuff you can get in there.
hatzi
08-04-2009, 07:20 AM
We have a 2005 Vectra other then the radio turning on by itself in the middle of the night its great.
Anyone know a fix for the radio turning on by itself????
2.00am this morning had to turn it off:vpo::vpo:
blackbettyhsv
08-04-2009, 08:56 AM
We have a 2005 Vectra other then the radio turning on by itself in the middle of the night its great.
Anyone know a fix for the radio turning on by itself????
2.00am this morning had to turn it off:vpo::vpo:
we have found with ours if you leave the radio on after turning the car off later it comes on by itself, you have to turn the radio off before you turn the car off, hopefully that is also your problem
EddieVE06
04-11-2009, 04:32 PM
I did not want to start another thread but I am hoping someone can assist. Does anyone know how to replace the side mirror as a whole on a vectra. I would assume it would be similar to other vehicles but i am no good with mechanical things.
The LHS rear mirror was swiped and have purchased another one via a wrecker, thankfully same colour so just need to find out how to take the old one off and put the new one on.
Does the whole door frame/windom etc need to come off?
Thanks
Eddie
TERRAFIRMA
07-11-2009, 12:00 AM
bought the missus an astra cdx 03 model, brilliant little cars with enough poke to get around, no problems so far except the aircon developed a leak but thats no biggie
Pickles
07-11-2009, 06:38 AM
bought the missus an astra cdx 03 model, brilliant little cars with enough poke to get around, no problems so far except the aircon developed a leak but thats no biggie
That would be a TS CDX.....and what a TOP little car they are....heated leather seats, trip computer, climate air etc etc....a friend of mine referred to them as a "Mini Caprice"!
We've got a TS Astra Classic Equipe which is just a great little car.....but I've often thought that I'd love a TS CDX.
Cheers, Pickles.
littlered
07-11-2009, 02:01 PM
vectras, Astras both hunks of shit, Ask any mechanic.
Various common problems, water pumps, coils, transmissions, Lot better car out there for the $$$$$$, Think Japaneese.
Agreed. We just traded one and the transmission went prior to us wholesaling it. Cost us appox $1500 to get it fixed in house.
LR
EddieVE06
01-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Agreed. We just traded one and the transmission went prior to us wholesaling it. Cost us appox $1500 to get it fixed in house.
LR
Same could be said for any car, they all have issues.
So far in our family two ZC CD Vectra's and a AH Astra, all coming up to 3 years ownership and no problems apart from actuator in air con in one vectra.
blackbettyhsv
11-03-2010, 08:00 PM
yes vectra's as well - possibly 50,000 klms, even driven by older drivers that don't brake hard or ride brakes.
very old post but I had to comment on our vectra, we just has the front rotors & pads changed at 105,584 & yes they were the original rotors & pads. we had a dash warning light come on in jan to replace them.
the mechanic did say the pads were very close to steel rubbing together so we got the most from them & he reckons we might get the same amount of K's again
can only hope hey:goodjob:
SLE355
12-03-2010, 05:52 PM
very old post but I had to comment on our vectra, we just has the front rotors & pads changed at 105,584 & yes they were the original rotors & pads. we had a dash warning light come on in jan to replace them.
the mechanic did say the pads were very close to steel rubbing together so we got the most from them & he reckons we might get the same amount of K's again
can only hope hey:goodjob:
All comes down to driving style and location, cars in country locations like Traralgon generally get alot more k's from brakes as apposed to the cars used in the suburbs, as you can imagine.
blackbettyhsv
13-03-2010, 10:58 AM
the only thing now is the warning light on the dash is on still, turns out the pad/rotor warning sensors need to be replaced at $60 bucks each, our local said we dont really have to as it wont affect the ABS as long as the light does,nt annoy us
lowriding
13-03-2010, 12:30 PM
the only thing now is the warning light on the dash is on still, turns out the pad/rotor warning sensors need to be replaced at $60 bucks each, our local said we dont really have to as it wont affect the ABS as long as the light does,nt annoy us
I think there is only one which is on the Front passenger side ... i could be wrong though .if you are mechanically minded you can easily disconnect the wire from the wheel arch ,just pull the wire from the pad and disconnect from the multi connector next to the strut, then join the two wires which will turn the light out no problems . Won't affect anything at all ,or just buy one from Ebay Uk for $10 or so .
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vauxhall-VECTRA-C-SIGNUM-BRAKE-PAD-WEAR-SENSOR-NEW_W0QQitemZ350312422193QQcategoryZ10404QQcmdZVie wItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DDLSL%2 52BSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BIEW %252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26c lkid%3D8454765747882287789
cheers
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