Maff vs Maffless

[APS Fston]

We have been tuning VEs for a long time, a lot of customers ask what’s the best tune for my car.
I will use this thread to share the data we have seen with different combinations - Maff vs Maffless.


http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x182/VYSLED/maffvsmaffless.jpg

[VZSSTT]

Nice results there, with the mafless tune what CAI is it running? same as MAF tune?

[Nidz]

Wow.. Actually somebody had posted some tested results to the question that people are always asking..

[DaveHAT]

Great post.

Interesting to see that whilst the "end number" is higher with the MAFless ... tune, there's SFA difference in the regions where these cars are driven the most.

i.e. ... At speeds sub 145km/h the power made was essentially the same and not too different to a stock tune.

Interesting ... good info. :goodjob:

[STATIE]

Interesting to see that whilst the "end number" is higher with the MAFless ... tune, there's SFA difference in the regions where these cars are driven the most.

i.e. ... At speeds sub 145km/h the power made was essentially the same and not too different to a stock tune.

Well not really - the top 2/3's of the rev range in every gear will be better - dont just go on the speed on the dyno - it is locked in one gear there.

[michaels1v8]

I would also assume the torque has increased at each different tune state.

Good thread :)

[Delft Maloo]

Any chance of the power graph loged against rpm and a torque graph aswell.
With the mafless tune is a different intake used? or is the maff left inplace but failed, or is the maff replaced with a piece of pipe?
Not being critical but just wondering if the mafless difference is due to a different intake.
My own testing on an l98 with std and maff tune with the std intake have resulted in the same basic figures and difference as what you have shown in yours.

Just out of curiosity what was the afr like on the std tune? the few ve's i had on the dyno have all shown between 12.3-12.7 afr's in ve l98 SS's and ls2 clubsports.

[SS Enforcer]

I heard some other shops have said they can make better power with a Maff.

The point I don't get is at WOT the car is in open loop therefore the Maf doesn't come into play so is the Maf a restriction on the VE as well.

I remember Street tuna many years ago doing a power run with a maf installed then just slipping it out and the car made more power due to less restriction. Is this the case with the bigger Mafs is what I am getting at.

cheers

[APS Fston]

The only change to the intake was a pipe fitted in place of the Maff metre.

[harey]

Geeze it looks like the VE's have pretty decent tunes already. If I had one I dont think I would bother with just a tune.

[WildBHaviour]

I have owned a ve ss m6 for over a year now only mods are pod cai and hsv extractors which i picked up really cheap fitted myself and im thrilled with the power and torque these cars have with stock tune.
Lights up the rears in first gear no problems.
Looking forward to getting a otr cai and tune soon i hear u get really good hp figures with just that mod.

[Oztrack Tuning]

The problem is that the stock tune doesnt stay at its best, its sees knock very easily and has too much timing in some areas that cause knock. Any amount of driving will see its octane scalar learn down toward to lower timing table and it will lose another 10rwkw at least. The other issue is due to cat enrichment setting it will usually get richer each pull if a few are done.

The stock tune also richens up too slowly and this makes them feel flat on quick throttle transitions.

What people see as a gain to the mafless tune is purely from the intake pipe/maf change. BUT mafless tunes can be smoother since the info needed for the timing table ie. g/cyl values are more steady, this can make timing bump up and down if the timing table isnt built to suit the dirty signal from the maf.

Good info APS in that dyno chart.

[APS Fston]

These are rear wheel torque figures as I didn’t have a tacho source hooked up.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x182/VYSLED/maffvsmafflesstorque.jpg

[Oztrack Tuning]

One good to thing to try would be to heat soak the engine and some runs.
The bet is that the stocker would also lose a heap more. Interesting to know by how much.

[VEbudSS]

Great post.

Interesting to see that whilst the "end number" is higher with the MAFless ... tune, there's SFA difference in the regions where these cars are driven the most.

i.e. ... At speeds sub 145km/h the power made was essentially the same and not too different to a stock tune.

Interesting ... good info. :goodjob:

That's what I rekn, for street daily driven maff is the way to go

[swingtan]

I have a couple of questions.....


How was the MAF tune performed and what sorts of changes were made? For example, were there changes to the spark tables, knock tables, commanded AFRs and MAF calibrations? Was the VVE optimised and then the MAF re-enabled?
What differences were made for the MAF-less tune? I'm assuming the tune was optimised for MAF-less and the VVE was corrected for the MAFless operation.
Is it possible to get a "post MAF-less" MAF tune done? Where the MAFless tune is simply altered to run the MAF, and the MAF calibration corrected for the commanded AFR?


The testing I have seen is that with the E38 ECM, a bit of effort needs to be done on the fuel dynamics for manual cars. Given that the dynamics are referenced to the MAF signal, they tend to go a little haywire when the signal is removed. Another point it the that MAF can react faster than the MAP sensor on very fast throttle movements. This can also effect the dynamics.

Good works guys on posting some sheets on this.

Simon.

[VZ_V8]

is that clubby making over 740NM???

why is my L98 sooo low? OTR, Exhaust, Mafless, M6 and it only makes 486NM :confused:

[Big_Valven]

It's good to see some hard evidence there... I was thinking "oh no not another Maf vs Mafless thread" and I was pleasantly surprised.

One thing to note though, is that it's a
Mass Air Flow sensor, and in context there can be a
Mass Air Flow tune and a
Mass Air Flow-less tune.

Where does the extra "F" come from when a lot of people write it down?

[michaels1v8]

is that clubby making over 740NM???

why is my L98 sooo low? OTR, Exhaust, Mafless, M6 and it only makes 486NM :confused:

Diff gears?

Maybe your quoting engine where as this is the diff multiplied figure?

just guessing :jester:

[BlueSS]

Diff gears?

Maybe your quoting engine where as this is the diff multiplied figure?

just guessing :jester:

Different Dyno.. most likely answer..

[APS Fston]

I have a couple of questions.....


How was the MAF tune performed and what sorts of changes were made? For example, were there changes to the spark tables, knock tables, commanded AFRs and MAF calibrations? Was the VVE optimised and then the MAF re-enabled?
What differences were made for the MAF-less tune? I'm assuming the tune was optimised for MAF-less and the VVE was corrected for the MAFless operation.
Is it possible to get a "post MAF-less" MAF tune done? Where the MAFless tune is simply altered to run the MAF, and the MAF calibration corrected for the commanded AFR?


The testing I have seen is that with the E38 ECM, a bit of effort needs to be done on the fuel dynamics for manual cars. Given that the dynamics are referenced to the MAF signal, they tend to go a little haywire when the signal is removed. Another point it the that MAF can react faster than the MAP sensor on very fast throttle movements. This can also effect the dynamics.

Good works guys on posting some sheets on this.

Simon.

What software do you use?

[swingtan]

EFILive.....

Simon.

[HYMEY]

That is some great info, on my car I have never seen much if any top end gains, especially over 10rwkw. It was pretty much the same power in top end, Although my MAF tune had a lot of time spent on it, and I have worked on the dynamics a lot(fuel transients in HPT) something most workshops don't touch. What I did find was the mafless tune makes a little more torque.

I must also add I have a ported TB on my car. I always get a 2kpa restriction weather the MAF is in or out, through an orrsom OTR. ie if atmospheric pressure is 101kpa, it generally runs around 98-99kpa filter in MAF on or not. And I have done 5000kms worth of logging with the maf.

[APS Fston]

I have a couple of questions.....


How was the MAF tune performed and what sorts of changes were made? For example, were there changes to the spark tables, knock tables, commanded AFRs and MAF calibrations? Was the VVE optimised and then the MAF re-enabled?
What differences were made for the MAF-less tune? I'm assuming the tune was optimised for MAF-less and the VVE was corrected for the MAFless operation.
Is it possible to get a "post MAF-less" MAF tune done? Where the MAFless tune is simply altered to run the MAF, and the MAF calibration corrected for the commanded AFR?


The testing I have seen is that with the E38 ECM, a bit of effort needs to be done on the fuel dynamics for manual cars. Given that the dynamics are referenced to the MAF signal, they tend to go a little haywire when the signal is removed. Another point it the that MAF can react faster than the MAP sensor on very fast throttle movements. This can also effect the dynamics.

Good works guys on posting some sheets on this.

Simon.

The only difference was in the fuel table, the ignition tables and the commanded PE table were the same with Maff vs Maffless.

EFILive have provided a massive VE table to fine tune the E38 ecu Maffless, and after some blood, sweat and tears you end up with more KWs in the end.

In tests that we have done with boosted applications there has been a minimum of 20 rear wheel KWs over a Maff tune.

I will post up the Dyno sheets from Maff vs Maffless on a blown 6.2ltr Maloo ute.

[HYMEY]

Any updates on the FI?