Air Intake VE SS V

[fat ssv]

Whats the best cold air intake for a VE SS V with out a maffless tune?
Any thoughts?

[Djbarnstar]

Had Growler kit with Y Pipe. Just dumped it for a Russo OTR with MAF, better as far as power goes but compromises radiator cooling.

[fat ssv]

Had Growler kit with Y Pipe. Just dumped it for a Russo OTR with MAF, better as far as power goes but compromises radiator cooling.

was the growler and y pipe beter than staned thanks

[FLANGE-SSV]

Fitted an Orssom around six months ago.
Recent dyno tune showed that I was losing timing due to 40+ degree intake temperature.
They look good and are easy to fit, however heat soak is a BIG issue.
Therefore, I cannot recommend one to another forum member.

[CSP]

Had Growler kit with Y Pipe. Just dumped it for a Russo OTR with MAF, better as far as power goes but compromises radiator cooling.

I would say the radiator cooling compromise is minimal. And it's certainly tollerable considering the W427 has the same issue... :)

[Highway]

Fitted an Orssom around six months ago.
Recent dyno tune showed that I was losing timing due to 40+ degree intake temperature.
They look good and are easy to fit, however heat soak is a BIG issue.
Therefore, I cannot recommend one to another forum member.

Just move the sensor up front like Wonky described in his thread.
It will then run at ambient but you will need a touch up on the tune

[VE 348]

I got an SS inductions OTR with mafless tune on my VE SS and got 20 RWKW.

They look great...induction noise is also great and transforms the car into a real sounding and performing V8.

Cost $1,200 to $1500 depending on your tune cost.

You could go a SS Inductions growler pod in the box type {looks standard} and get 10 RWKW for about $400

[Wonky]

Fitted an Orssom around six months ago.
Recent dyno tune showed that I was losing timing due to 40+ degree intake temperature.
They look good and are easy to fit, however heat soak is a BIG issue.
Therefore, I cannot recommend one to another forum member.

Heat soak is potentially a BIG issue with all pods and OTRs on VE, especially with the standard airbox even, due to the IAT sensor being in the MAF. Obviously if you go mafless you have to move it somewhere so depending on where whoever installs mafless OTRs moves it the problem will be solved to a greater or lesser degree depending on just where they move it.

For MAF OTRs such as the Orrsom As Highway says, I moved the IAT sensor to the front of my OTR to measure the temperature of the air as it comes in. Obviously there is a slight heating effect as the air traverses the filter and enters the engine but I assume it is minimal in the few microseconds it takes to do so. I also have a reflective foil sheet positioned under the OTR and up the back to protect it from being cooked by radiant heat from the engine and radiator. My IAT runs at exactly ambient unless I am sitting in traffic, in which case it quickly comes down again once I am moving.

Some people put their IAT sensors in the back of their OTR but if ever you have felt the back of an OTR when the engine has been running for a while you will find it gets quite warm, especially if not protected by reflective foil as I described above, so is subject to heatsoak too.

Others move their IAT sensor right away from the OTR down behind the front bar or similar so it is always measuring actual ambient temperature rather than what is going into the OTR.

Each 'solution' has its own potential inaccuracies but I would prefer to be measuring IAT where I do rather than anywhere else, others may differ. Bottom line I believe it is unfair of you to knock the Orrsom OTR due to your ignorance, however it came about.


Whats the best cold air intake for a VE SS V with out a maffless tune?
Any thoughts?

There are quite a few good ones now eg. Orrsom, Russo, DUS I believe now has one for VE as does ZiggyCV8Z, plus EXCESSV and Josh are working on one which should be ready soon.

There may be a kw or two difference between the various ones available but unless you are after every 1/100th of a second at the track or bragging rights on the dyno I'd suggest just getting the one you feel looks best and/or can get for the right price. The only one I'd advise against based on what I've been told is the CSV one as it is apparently a real dust magnet - needs regular cleaning.

I wouldn't recommend getting one of the Growler types as two people I know have gone from them to one of those above and picked up around 8rwkw.

[FLANGE-SSV]

Bottom line I believe it is unfair of you to knock the Orrsom OTR due to your ignorance, however it came about.
.

My tuner clearly demonstrated the inefficiencies of the "STOCK" Orssom OTR. On a 27-29 degree day with the dyno blower running constantly, I had ambient readings over 40 degrees. This resulted in my engine pulling 3 degrees of timing and losing me HP.
Moving Air Temp Sensors and adding Insulating Material suggests to me that the Orssom I purchased is NOT a completely developed COLD AIR solution at all.
The product should be revised/updated to incorporate these modifications ASAP, maybe then it would be worthy of consideration.
I paid good money for this kit and am therefore as qualified as any to offer my opinion without being called ignorant.

[Highway]

My tuner clearly demonstrated the inefficiencies of the "STOCK" Orssom OTR. On a 27-29 degree day with the dyno blower running constantly, I had ambient readings over 40 degrees. This resulted in my engine pulling 3 degrees of timing and losing me HP.
Moving Air Temp Sensors and adding Insulating Material suggests to me that the Orssom I purchased is NOT a completely developed COLD AIR solution at all.
The product should be revised/updated to incorporate these modifications ASAP, maybe then it would be worthy of consideration.
I paid good money for this kit and am therefore as qualified as any to offer my opinion without being called ignorant.

G'Day FLANGE,

I don't even have a Orssom CAI but when they came on market they were one of the best at the time to get cold air in to the engine.

Unless you want to update to the latest CAI you can easily move the sensor up front and add a alloy etc deflector plate with a little more work and get lots of cold air.

I have the Dus which does come with the latest shape and ideas and when on the dyno at 39 degrees ambient it was running at ambient.

There is no reason why the Orssom will not run at or close to ambient with Wonkys mods.
Others have done the same mods with great results.

Its cheaper than updating !!

With the current shape/design of the Orssom it is probably not possible to add the latest deflector plate etc.

Hope it works out.

Mike

[nikola]

Fitted an Orssom around six months ago.
Recent dyno tune showed that I was losing timing due to 40+ degree intake temperature.
They look good and are easy to fit, however heat soak is a BIG issue.
Therefore, I cannot recommend one to another forum member.

Thank you very much. I appreciate posts like this far more than ones like Wonky's, calling you ignorant for telling the truth. Again, thanks.

[FLANGE-SSV]

Thanks for the advice Mike.

[Djbarnstar]

was the growler and y pipe beter than staned thanks

Yep... Made a big difference. Well worth the outlay. They really should sell both together. Double Dipping IMO.


I would say the radiator cooling compromise is minimal. And it's certainly tollerable considering the W427 has the same issue... :)

Hmmm, I have noticed that the temps are higher now that the radiator is angled back. So much so that just after installation on a muggy day I had to back off as the temp guage reached 7/8ths to top after about 10mins of fanging it in the hills. I have not taken it to the circuit yet, so will pass full judgment then. It does however sound better and go harder. I am however very concerned. And yes my car is well serviced and it did not happen before I angled the radiator back and fitted OTR.

[boyley]

if you are keeping your MAF and are not prepared to relocate the IAT all the intakes will have IAT heatsoak issues.

In terms of performance all the OTR's are within a bees-dick of each other.

I agree with posts above and recommend you relocate your IAT out of the MAF.

Its a simple mod that costs about $5.

[Wonky]

My tuner clearly demonstrated the inefficiencies of the "STOCK" Orssom OTR. On a 27-29 degree day with the dyno blower running constantly, I had ambient readings over 40 degrees. This resulted in my engine pulling 3 degrees of timing and losing me HP.
Moving Air Temp Sensors and adding Insulating Material suggests to me that the Orssom I purchased is NOT a completely developed COLD AIR solution at all.
The product should be revised/updated to incorporate these modifications ASAP, maybe then it would be worthy of consideration.
I paid good money for this kit and am therefore as qualified as any to offer my opinion without being called ignorant.

I assume therefore that you had a MAF tune. As I said, ANY OTR which leaves the IAT sensor in the MAF is going to suffer heatsoak due to the proximity of the MAF to the engine. The amount of heatsoak in the standard setup is incredible and all the early pod filters suffered an enormous amount of heatsoak too.

The only reason heatsoak is not as noticeable on mafless OTRs is because in removing the MAF the installer/tuner is forced to move the IAT sensor to a position of their choosing, with the inherent advantages and disadvantages I noted in my first reply.


Thank you very much. I appreciate posts like this far more than ones like Wonky's, calling you ignorant for telling the truth. Again, thanks.

See above, plus boyley's post, although you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else. I just tell it like it is. I was very happy with my Orrsom OTR but now my car is sold I have not yet decided on which of the OTRs I mentioned in my first post I am going to get for my new ute.


if you are keeping your MAF and are not prepared to relocate the IAT all the intakes will have IAT heatsoak issues.

In terms of performance all the OTR's are within a bees-dick of each other.

I agree with posts above and recommend you relocate your IAT out of the MAF.

Its a simple mod that costs about $5.

Exactly! :yup: That's from a man who knows more about what he is talking about that most!

[AMADR8]

The only one I'd advise against based on what I've been told is the CSV one as it is apparently a real dust magnet - needs regular cleaning.

[QUOTE]


gday wonky, do u know if that is the only problem with the csv one??? i brought off a forum member ages ago but havnt put it on my car yet.

[Wonky]

gday wonky, do u know if that is the only problem with the csv one??? i brought off a forum member ages ago but havnt put it on my car yet.

As far as I'm aware, though I've never had one myself so am only going on people who have had. They seem to make around the same ballpark power as the Russo and Orrsom i.e. within a few kws, so just keep your eye on how clean it is.

[mickve]

Yep... Made a big difference. Well worth the outlay. They really should sell both together. Double Dipping IMO.



Hmmm, I have noticed that the temps are higher now that the radiator is angled back. So much so that just after installation on a muggy day I had to back off as the temp guage reached 7/8ths to top after about 10mins of fanging it in the hills. I have not taken it to the circuit yet, so will pass full judgment then. It does however sound better and go harder. I am however very concerned. And yes my car is well serviced and it did not happen before I angled the radiator back and fitted OTR.

I would get it checked out mine made no difference to the temps on my car and have never heard anyone else have this problem either.

[fat ssv]

which ones can i use with the air flow meter still in there thanks

[Wonky]

which ones can i use with the air flow meter still in there thanks

Sorry, just realised I misread your original question due to the effective double negative and splitting without into two words. Basically you want to know which intakes you can use with a MAF tune. I would definitely go OTR and then I believe your only choices are Orrsom (used to be the only MAF choice) and the newly released Russo MAF OTR.

Again, the power differences are probably still minimal so it really comes down to which you like the look of better and whether you want to lay your radiator back.

[fat ssv]

Sorry, just realised I misread your original question due to the effective double negative and splitting without into two words. Basically you want to know which intakes you can use with a MAF tune. I would definitely go OTR and then I believe your only choices are Orrsom (used to be the only MAF choice) and the newly released Russo MAF OTR.

Again, the power differences are probably still minimal so it really comes down to which you like the look of better and whether you want to lay your radiator back.

no with out a maff tune sorry

[HRT 8]

no with out a maff tune sorry

So long as you leave the maf in place it wont matter whether its tuned or not. The two mentioned by Wonky are the only two OTR's that suit a maffed VE (to my knowledge)

[SV346]

My tuner clearly demonstrated the inefficiencies of the "STOCK" Orssom OTR. On a 27-29 degree day with the dyno blower running constantly, I had ambient readings over 40 degrees. This resulted in my engine pulling 3 degrees of timing and losing me HP.
Moving Air Temp Sensors and adding Insulating Material suggests to me that the Orssom I purchased is NOT a completely developed COLD AIR solution at all.
The product should be revised/updated to incorporate these modifications ASAP, maybe then it would be worthy of consideration.
I paid good money for this kit and am therefore as qualified as any to offer my opinion without being called ignorant.




I have also found the same, the orrsom is a pretty hopeless piece of c..p, with the bonnet down its sucking in air upto 80 degrees, i saw it with my own eyes with my tuner, a great horsepower maker isnt it.

[Wonky]

SV346, where was your IAT sensor located and what other OTR have you compared those readings to?

[SV346]

the sensor i think is on the underside of where the air comes into it, but changing the location of it wouldnt have fixed how badly this one was sucking in the hot air unfortunately, i find it is an alright thing past 110km/h though.

[Wonky]

I'm puzzled as I have my IAT sensor right on the top opening where the air enters the OTR (I have a picture somewhere if you'd like to see it) and I have a scangauge permanently connected to my OBD2 port taking readings directly from the ECM.

The air going into my Orrsom is always exactly at ambient if I am moving even very slowly. If I sit in traffic then my IAT readings start rising but I generally have to only go about 100m till they're back to ambient. Sounds as if there may be an issue with the way yours is set up???

As several people have said, all intakes have heatsoak problems when you are idling stationary.

[SV346]

Yeah it sounds like it might not have been set up right hey. Because i got it cause it looked like a good piece and had heard plenty of good things, but it just hasnt been real good to me. Im pretty sure your iat is in a different position to mine also, would you like me to get a photo of it?
Its the whole thing of the air temp getting to 80 degrees thats scared me. At 80 degrees i may as well fit the standard one with the performance benefit.

[boyley]

I have also found the same, the orrsom is a pretty hopeless piece of c..p, with the bonnet down its sucking in air upto 80 degrees, i saw it with my own eyes with my tuner, a great horsepower maker isnt it.

The IAT is reading 80deg.

Your car is not ingesting air at 80 deg.

Your IAT is suffering from heatsoak

Your intake is good for 300 plus kw

Move your IAT sensor to the front of the unit.

I have used the orssom and it is a very good unit.

Your tuner should know all of this stuff if he's any good.

[CSP]

I believe your only choices are Orrsom (used to be the only MAF choice) and the newly released Russo MAF OTR.

The Dus OTR is also available with or without MAF Wonks... :D


I can now supply to customers Duspeeds new VE OTR.
There have been no pictures available until today since Dus was waiting for patent details which are now in place.

The item is $695 plus postage. They work mafless or with the maf being mounted inside of them. They come with instructions and a kit to assist with all possible install details. Plus support from Duspeed.

This OTR will also be available in sheet metal.

[SV346]

The IAT is reading 80deg.

Your car is not ingesting air at 80 deg.

Your IAT is suffering from heatsoak

Your intake is good for 300 plus kw

Move your IAT sensor to the front of the unit.

I have used the orssom and it is a very good unit.

Your tuner should know all of this stuff if he's any good.



Thank you for the info very much mate, i will do exactly that!

[Wonky]

The IAT is reading 80deg.

Your car is not ingesting air at 80 deg.

Your IAT is suffering from heatsoak

Your intake is good for 300 plus kw.

Yep, I know quite a few guys getting 320 - 340rwkw from them with 224 to 230 type cams and just 2.5" full XForce systems. My IAT sensor is now mounted where the red squircle is. :D

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o274/gcovo/Misc/orssomIAT.jpg


The Dus OTR is also available with or without MAF Wonks... :D

Ah, good stuff thanks - another choice for me if I decide not to go muffless on the ute.

[SV346]

Cheers for that Wonky! Itl help alot of people im sure!

[Wonky]

Cheers for that Wonky! Itl help alot of people im sure!

No probs. :) If you can afford around $200 or a bit more I'd definitely recommend getting a scangauge (see Australian LS1 and Holden Forums (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=86346) where I organised a group buy much cheaper but struggled to sell the last few, so won't do it again :(). With it you can continuously monitor your IATs (and other things) direct from the ECM - great little tool!! :thumbsup:

Just type scangauge into eBay search. (Wooders Garage is the official Australian importer.)

[aedeau]

Had Growler kit with Y Pipe. Just dumped it for a Russo OTR with MAF, better as far as power goes but compromises radiator cooling.


Yep... Made a big difference. Well worth the outlay. They really should sell both together. Double Dipping IMO.

What about y-pipe and standard airbox with a k&n panel filter? Anybody else using this combo? The only think i'm not keen on is paying $200 for that y-pipe. Found a link the other day where this guy modded his Pontiac GXP intake pipe with some PVC piping from a hardware store. Total cost.. $20 :confused:

[Brett240]

Hi all,

as this thread is a bit old now are there any updated OTR intakes out there?

as far as i can read the only OTR's that work with the standard MAF are

ORSSOM
Russo
Dus
possibly the W427 intake?

are there any others? is there a link to the Dus intake? doesnt come up on google.

also its not an OTR but does anyone have any experience with the walkinshaw CAI?

[DCV1NU]

is there a link to the Dus intake? doesnt come up on google.



Here you go mate: http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=128768

They're a good bit of gear!

[Wonky]

are there any others? is there a link to the Dus intake? doesnt come up on google.

also its not an OTR but does anyone have any experience with the walkinshaw CAI?

The DUS is a very good intake, sucking in air from multiple locations and IMO looks the most factory of all. They come as standard in (gloss??) black but I had mine painted to match the car.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o274/gcovo/SSV%20Ute/Enginecovers2sm.jpg

Chev used to supply mainly Orrsom OTRs (which I was very happy with on my SSV sedan), but since I got my DUS unit (first one he'd seen) and achieved very good results with it and he achieved similar very good results with others, Chev now recommends the DUS unless a customer specifically wants a different one. I went mafless on the ute, but MAF is possible with the DUS, though apparently with a little mucking around.

[Brett240]

so the orssom is the most straightforward for a car with a MAF but needs the IAT relocated to work properly, and the Duspeed has no problems with the air temp sensor but needs to be modified to make the MAF work?

[Wonky]

AFAIK that's probably a reasonable summation assuming that as with their mafless version the Russo MAF OTR needs the radiator laid back slightly (no real big deal apparently). I don't know that the DUS OTR has to be modified for the MAF but somehow the MAF sits inside it somehow??? Not really sure as all the DUS units I've seen have been mafless. It's a very nice and efficient unit so best to contact DUS on here through PM.

[SSV8TE]

I have the orssome and to remove the filter you have to unscrew the whole top to get it out which isnt that hard all the same.
But with the DUS you just pry the filter out the top which is a 2 min job.
Both produce similar results with cost almost similar too.
So for more standard looking engine bay i would say the orrsomme but in looking trick i would say the DUS.
Prefference is probably more the factor than practical as they are both great units.
Cheers,
Andy.

[Dieselman]

Ziggy makes a OTRCAI that will take a MAF.

They are forum sponsors too :1peek:

[Tyre biter]

I see the Ziggy unit is available for a MAF too - oops, Dieselman beat me to it. I waffle on too much...

Having said that, Chevo and I saw huge heat soak numbers from my (MAFless) Ziggy unit; >85 degrees with ambient at 19-20 degrees! The unit was really hot - too hot to touch and I guess this is the end result of it being made of metal combined with the IAT location at the rear of the unit. In any case, the heating of the IAT saw the engine pulling a shedload of timing and having trouble starting, idling and even stalling - the later on hot-ish days. Once moving the temperatures just tumbled but remained well above ambient (30-40 degrees above).

For now we have moved the IAT as much as the cable will allow and this action has since seen the car behaving itself.

Apparently the DUS and Orssom units don't seem to generate this level of heat soak, largely because they are made of fiberglass or plastic. Add to this, the DUS has a pre-drilled location for the IAT way out front in the scoop area behind the grille and having seen the numbers I saw, I now appreciate why the DUS has grown the following that it has.

That said, I still really like the look of the Ziggy unit - functionality over form and the hard lines versus the more 'organic' look of the DUS. I also agree with Wonks, in that surely the incoming air cannot be heated to anywhere near what the IAT was logging and therefore with a bit of remedial work, the Ziggy unit will do me just fine - and with now 333rwkw clearly the Ziggy unit is doing its part.

This is where I fall to my call for help and advice if I can be excused for taking the thread away from the OP please; I need to find an extension harness for the IAT to better locate it in a position similar to the DUS. Does anyone have any idea on where to get a 'plug and play' extension or is this something I'll need to fabricate myself? Hopefully the former because I am hopeless with all things electrical.

Cheers, TB

[Oztrack Tuning]

heat soak isnt a factor in my opinion as long as the IAT is relocated for any of the OTRs.

But what is a factor is how much hot air they can suck - every extra 1 deg C (in true ingested air temp) results in 1 rwkw lost. The test is also how well they perform with the bonnet down on the dyno.

Dus's works best with the bonnet shut (it probably prevents some hot air being sucked in) and his OTR only loses about 2rwkw from having the filter in. If a car is dyno'd from the TB with the relocated IAT power drops about 13rwkw when i did last. The stock air box on a VE does about the same as straight at the TB+bonnet up+fan on.

[BEARWOOD]

Mate don't read to much into the technical stuff some people post on here as it will get to confusing and it doesn't need to be. I've got a Ziggy mafless but where i had my cam, exhaust etc done he recomends the Dus OTR but in saying that i still cracked 335rwkw and have no problems at all with the Ziggy unit. The few top names will all be pretty close and all be an improvement over standard so pick the one that you like the look of and that you think is good value for money. In everyday driving i doubt you will pick the difference.

[Tyre biter]

This is where I fall to my call for help and advice if I can be excused for taking the thread away from the OP please; I need to find an extension harness for the IAT to better locate it in a position similar to the DUS. Does anyone have any idea on where to get a 'plug and play' extension or is this something I'll need to fabricate myself? Hopefully the former because I am hopeless with all things electrical.

Cheers, TB

Delete to my question - found them at VCM - if only I'd used the bloody search button prior - lesson learned.

Cheers, TB

[Wonky]

The few top names will all be pretty close and all be an improvement over standard so pick the one that you like the look of and that you think is good value for money. In everyday driving i doubt you will pick the difference.

Agreed! :goodjob: