KERS in everyday cars ?

[kpop]

anyone who's into F1 knows of the new KERS system. it pretty much builds up kinitec energy, and you can unleash a burst of upto 80HP, similar to using NOS.

i was just thinking, this kind of system would be pretty nifty to have in everyday (sporty) cars

more info on how it works:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=43467

There are expected to be two types of KERS systems in use next year: battery and flywheel.

The battery system seems set to be the more popular method. It harnesses the braking energy by storing it in super-capacitor batteries which then release power to the driven wheels when required.

The flywheel method looks set to be used by Williams (and possibly Honda and/or Toyota). Here the braking energy is used to turn a flywheel and when extra power is needed the wheels are coupled up to the spinning flywheel to give a boost in power.

Initially, the regulations limit the power of the KERS systems to 60kw (around 80 horsepower) and the storage capacity of the energy is 400kJ (kilojoules) per lap. What in effect this means is an extra 80 horsepower available for 6.7s per lap.

[planetdavo]

You could buy a Prius...:eek:

[ratter]

No doubt it will be on our road cars in the future, but it may take 10 years or so until it is cost effective enough to produce.
This is how ABS got developed

[Evman]

I'd say there's just going to be a general shift towards electric vehicles full stop. I suppose a KERS system would help a bit getting a car moving from the lights and such in traffic but I can't really see it becoming a mainstream product.

[VZMY06SS]

I hear that the new BMW M3's have something like this in them. I read about it in the paper some months ago. I'm not sure what method that they use though...
Steve

[planetdavo]

It is already here in a milder form.
Most of the hybrids on the market use regenerative braking, with the power stored in batteries. It is then used when the computers decide it will best assist economy. The major difference with F1 is that it is designed as a performance boost rather than economy, it is manually activated, and an F1's motor isn't turned off to run purely on electricity.

[Evman]

Yeah I'm sure most manufacturers will have the opinion that if they're going to fit a system like this they may as well just make it an all out hybrid.

[kpop]

haha not once did i mention anything about going green or any of that hybrid nonsense. my aim was just to find out of the instant power system would/could work/flow onto current cars

[TAKEITEZ]

some of the Lexus hybrids use their electic power to give an actual power increase making the cars a lot quicker than if they were to run only on the petrol engine... full throttle its engine power and electric power working together...

is it the GS400h that does this?
i think it has a 4 litre V8 and the hybrid system...??? i can't be bothered looking through magazines or anything...

[HSV Listy]

I drive the GS400h every now and then and no V8 in that or atleast that model. V6 I think. Either way it is a pretty unual feeling using the electric motors are partial brakes. You just touch the brakes to stop at lights and most of the braking is the motors. Not the same feeling as usuing normal brakes. Off the line it is quite good but above 60 just like a normal car.
There is so much electronics in them it is silly. The steering wheel lifts up when you get out even

[planetdavo]

haha not once did i mention anything about going green or any of that hybrid nonsense. my aim was just to find out of the instant power system would/could work/flow onto current cars
I understand that, but the point is that this technology is already in the mainstream, (usually) in the form of boring hybrids, which use it for a non-performance role.
You could probably adapt something, if you've got a spare million or two somewhere...

[seedyrom]

You can have this quite easily and cheaply.

Its called "Boost on Demand", but you need to change your EBC to an Eboost2

:diddy:

http://www.turbosmartonline.com/images/1099.jpg

[zorro]

seedy thats how the champ cars do it, lets them away with a bit more psi (push to pass) and for limited time. F1 are N/A...

[steve_t]

I actually like the idea of using the kinetic energy from the shocks to help charge a battery. The regenerative braking works OK but could be better :diddy:

[seedyrom]

As I was away with the family over the weekend, I didn't get to see all the coverage (though I was surprised when we arrived back late in the afternoon and the main race still hadn't started - what's with that?).

How does the kinetic energy get "transferred" ?

Like, the F1 cars are petrol .... Do they have a mad arsed electric motor that spins faster than the engine is going to get the power down?
I assume its a direct drive to the axels ... or is there something else?
Surely the engine has to get disengaged from the drivetrain if this happens.
It's a lot of faith to be put into an electric device - though I guess the whole F1 car is based on that principle

I just don't get the mechanics

[zorro]

has me a bit miffed, but the difference you could see when they used it was amazing. Seems odd that they have a seperate electric motor to push an extra 80hp into the thing when its already hittting 17000rpms. I would think it would be more of a detuning and then hitting this for an optimum tune that gives higher peak power...

Anyone put the concept in laymans terms for us?

[seedyrom]

I'm trying to read up on it and there's a LOT of talk, but no one talks about how the energy is put into the drivetrain.





These guys would know ... but there's too many women surrounding them for me to ask the question

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kers.jpg

Oh, and to the Original Poster.

BMW have publicly said they are investigating getting their technology into their production cars

[Evman]

How does the kinetic energy get "transferred" ?

Like, the F1 cars are petrol .... Do they have a mad arsed electric motor that spins faster than the engine is going to get the power down?
I assume its a direct drive to the axels ... or is there something else?
Surely the engine has to get disengaged from the drivetrain if this happens.
It's a lot of faith to be put into an electric device - though I guess the whole F1 car is based on that principle

I just don't get the mechanics

Seems the common one involves having an electric motor/generator directly driven from the front of the motor (I'd imagine it'd be geared still). Under braking the excess energy of the engine drives the motor as a generator, charging the batteries. When needed a button is pressed and the motor is driven from the batteries and works in "parallel" with the engine giving it a power boost while the engine itself still makes it's own power. So the engine and KERS both transfer their power through the crankshaft and a common driveline. Around about 30kg is the 'advertised' weight of the system.

Easiest way to visualise it is thinking of the system a starter motor that is geared a little more effectively :)

[seedyrom]

Fair enough.

I guess dremels and some other electric motors can spin at over 30,000rpms, but I was just wondering how this would effect the engine if you had something suddenly spinning the petrol motor faster than it can spin.

I guess as long as it's only mildly applying the 400 joules per lap to the motor and just giving it a helping hand to build up revs quicker it'd be alright ... not setting out to rapidly over rev the engine, compression brake it into a wall and force a retirement.

That's Webber's job. :lol:

[HazzaHSV]

That's Webber's job. :lol:
You mean Barrichello's!!! :cussing:

[seedyrom]

You mean Barrichello's!!! :cussing:
It was quite funny hearing of the "heroic" drive by Barrichelo (and well done on the 2nd place), but geez what a crappy way to begin the race.



Any other race from years gone by would have seen both cars burst into a million pieces after a slight touch.

Glad to see they both got out of it relatively unscathed.

[SchrgdVSV6]

The system itself is fairly conventional, using a single 60 Kw liquid cooled brushless direct current (BLDC) motor / generator unit, which operates at around 120 degrees C. The motor is attached to the front of the 2.4 liter V8 and driven by a reduction gear off the crankshaft.
Lots of info here --> http://www.gizmag.com/formula-one-kers/11324/

[Excellent]

Although battery-type KERS devices are used on hybrid road cars such as the Toyota Prius, the technology required for an F1 application will be rather different.

The batteries in a road-going hybrid are expected to last for pretty much the life of the vehicle.

Because this is F1 the batteries here will need to be as small and light as possible for the given level of power, and as such they will be ‘on the edge’ technologically and will probably last only for one race weekend – if that long!

BMW’s Mario Theissen has pointed out that the power-to-weight ratio of the F1 device is three to four times that used in the company’s hybrid road cars.

The safety concerns surround electrical fires with the batteries and the risk of electrocution.

When the cars come into the pit garages still carrying their stored electrical energy, the teams will need equipment that releases this energy from the car into a storage device. Only then will the car be safe to work on.

The implication is that marshal posts will need access to similar equipment in the event of a stranded car on-track.

The matter of exploding batteries is a potential hazard not only for the driver and crew but also for those anywhere near because of the chemicals used in the lithium batteries.

Teams believe they can install the batteries and/or flywheels in such a way that there is no risk of them coming adrift in the event of an accident, but that is something that will need to be incorporated into the standard FIA crash-testing of each design before it is allowed onto the track.


The effects on performance

As yet, the performance gains are not expected to be overwhelming.

The use of an extra 80bhp for just under 7s would nominally gain around 0.3s of lap time, but against that gain needs to be subtracted the effect of the less optimal placing of weight.

The devices, with batteries and associated equipment, will weigh around 35kg.

Teams currently use around 60-70kg of ballast, which they place wherever best suits the dynamics of the car on a given track. But wherever they place it, it is always very low down in order to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible.

With KERS devices using up around half the current ballast, the centre of gravity height will increase and there will be less flexibility in where the weight is situated within the wheelbase.

There are potential issues also with torque effects on the rear axle as the device becomes saturated and cannot accept any more braking energy. The step change on the axle load could make the car unstable under braking.

The current plan is that the power and storage capacity of the devices will be progressively increased over coming seasons, with a jump to 100kw and 800kJ of storage in 2011 and then 200kw and 1,600kJ in 2013 taken from both axles rather than just the rear axle, as configured until then.

But as can be appreciated, there’s an awful lot of work to do yet just getting the first generation of devices safely up and running.