What if GM goes Bankrupt?

[pah]

Hi all,

News items are mentioning GM and bankruptcy in the same articles.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1Fq6HpfvYAI&refer=home

If this happens, where will that leave GMH?



PAH

[Evman]

:nyuk: Pleeeeaase let it be bought by the Porsche group haha

[steve_t]

In the US, filing for bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean the end of a business. Even if they do file for bankruptcy or chapter 11 or whatever it's called, GM will be around for quite some time

Here's a link from 2005 that discussed it.... wow, looks like it was on peoples' minds 4 years ago!!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_50/b3963114.htm

[vr5speedv6]

Bankruptcy is probably the best thing for GM at this point, as it'll get the unions off their back. They're one of the main reasons GM's in this mess!!
They can then come back as a much more competitive company;)

[steves87]

how does bankruptcy affect claims on warrantee?? anyone know?

[vr5speedv6]

The government will back them. Link (http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6482626/news/us-government-will-guarantee-chrysler-and-gm-warranties/index.html)

[Carrots]

General Motors to become B.O.M...Barrack Obama Motors. Or perhaps U.S.A.Motors. :rofl:

[VX2VESS]

General Motors to become B.O.M...Barrack Obama Motors. Or perhaps U.S.A.Motors. :rofl:

yeah all this talk of going bankrupt won't help sell more cars for them over there

[Carrots]

yeah all this talk of going bankrupt won't help sell more cars for them over there

Exactly. When the Government tells you your warranty is now safer than ever because of there involvement, any new (or vehicle with warranty remaining) buyer is going to think twice!

[BigFella]

I will sell more Hondas hohohohhahahaha :rofl:

[fatbob]

You know something - I don't have shares in GM ( thats a relief I tell ya ;).
I simply have a GM car - Holden Munro.
Its out of warranty - doh.

So the only thing I really interested in, personally in the back pocket, out of this - is will my car be worth more, less, same or nothing - in the short and long term - if GM ( and lets say Holden as well ) goes bang ?

Speculative I know - but I cant find anywhere that even has an opinion on that one.

[Road Warrior]

Filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy is probably one of the best things GM could do at the moment to ensure it's long term survival.

[Chappy]

I will sell more Hondas hohohohhahahaha :rofl:


What's lawn mowers got to do with GM going bankrupt?:smilesandbanana:

[EgoFG]

You know something - I don't have shares in GM ( thats a relief I tell ya ;).
I simply have a GM car - Holden Munro.
Its out of warranty - doh.

So the only thing I really interested in, personally in the back pocket, out of this - is will my car be worth more, less, same or nothing - in the short and long term - if GM ( and lets say Holden as well ) goes bang ?

Speculative I know - but I cant find anywhere that even has an opinion on that one.

Assuming the most negative outcome, and holden shuts up shop (heaven forbid)
I would reckon, in the short term it would be worth less (drop due to flow on of drop in demand for cars under warranty). Longer term it would be good news for any owners of well maintained GMH produce.

[GODSMACK]

What's lawn mowers got to do with GM going bankrupt?:smilesandbanana:

I think he was referring to line trimmers.. :confused: :jester:

[Dougy]

If it does, the workers & bondholders would lose the most.GM would then be restructured.Hopefully the upside is that GM would end up being a money making car company again & that Holden would survive.

[VX2VESS]

If it does, the workers & bondholders would lose the most.GM would then be restructured.Hopefully the upside is that GM would end up being a money making car company again & that Holden would survive.
americas unions have really put their own workers in a bad situation. stupid stuff like the company has to pay pensions until you die, and pay for all your medical expenses even though your retired, how many did they say the have to pay like that 700,000? who no longer work for them.

Now thats come back to bite them, well GM currently then the workers. not the cause but those outgoings must be enormous for no return.

[Dougy]

americas unions have really put their own workers in a bad situation. stupid stuff like the company has to pay pensions until you die, and pay for all your medical expenses even though your retired, how many did they say the have to pay like that 700,000? who no longer work for them.

Now thats come back to bite them, well GM currently then the workers. not the cause but those outgoings must be enormous for no return.

I agree with you 100%.

[Martin_D]

No Aussie government will let Holden shut till its a worst case scenario....as its the end of them 'The Government that Killed Holden', just doesnt wash at election time does it :(

Its a sweet FA 3400 jobs to keep going - not much in the national scheme of things - and if thats building old model Daewoos in Adelaide then so be it. Dont be worried so much about the future of GM then as the future of Commodore, as unfortunately thats the car in the crosshairs and the one enthusiasts can least afford to lose... :eek:

[DCJ81]

americas unions have really put their own workers in a bad situation. stupid stuff like the company has to pay pensions until you die, and pay for all your medical expenses even though your retired, how many did they say the have to pay like that 700,000? who no longer work for them.

Now thats come back to bite them, well GM currently then the workers. not the cause but those outgoings must be enormous for no return.


I was talking to one of the guys here that's from the US and he was say that its the heath care that's really killing not just GM but all the car builders. The unions got the work 100% cover which means if I work for GM and my grandmother goes to hospital then the GM heath covers her, if my sister has a baby then she's covered. My mate was say that there are 60,000 current employees with GM at the moment but GM health has got 5,000,000 people on their books.
Also most workers are on maximum quoters, so when Fred was working in 1976 building engines the agreement was that he's product line would only make 100 motors a shift if they met that before days end they could go home. Now fast forward to 2008 they are on the same agreement so come morning tea and they have built the 100th motor they all go home

[llucie]

I have friends who work in the US auto industry (suppliers to the major manufacturers) and what they say is that the automakers "GM in particular" lost touch with the loyal buyers and stopped producing what they wanted to buy - what they have in the pipeline is still quite a way off and not going to be any better than what the Japs and Koreans have to offer , the best buy at the moment is the top of the range Hyundai : Honda Toyota Mitsubishi and Nissan are the cars of choice for the young drivers (probably the same here in Aussie) - so the big three not only need to start building vehicles that people will buy , they now have to convince the younger people that their widget is better than the Japanese one : it's a big ask , and I think would take quite a few years to come to fruition , if ever!!:confused:

[redvxr8clubby]

Assuming the most negative outcome, and holden shuts up shop (heaven forbid)
I would reckon, in the short term it would be worth less (drop due to flow on of drop in demand for cars under warranty). Longer term it would be good news for any owners of well maintained GMH produce.

Could be right, i am thinking of the one tonner (HQ/ HJ etc) resales that were pretty good until Commodore one tonner was built.

[clubbie]

GM will file for bankruptcy (chpt 11) so they can restructure and reign in costs particularly with auto workers union. This generally means business as usual for manufacturing and customers etc........workers and suppliers will be stressing though.

What you do not want to hear is GM has filed for liquidation (bankruptcy) under chapter 7 where the likely outcome is production can be halted and assets sold generally for scrap value.

Either way suppliers and workers will have to agree to losing a lot of money/entitlements as part of the restructuring for GM to survive. If they don't agree the likely outcome is cents in the dollar liquidation which help no one.

Edit: BTW anyone with something like a W427, Z06 or new Camaro.....will be on a winner

[Fnomna]

What you do not want to hear is GM has filed for liquidation (bankruptcy) under chapter 7 where the likely outcome is production can be halted and assets sold generally for scrap value.

I think this is what they're saying will happen to Chrysler if the Fiat merger doesn't succeed.

Only been hearing about Ch11 with GM.

[Road Warrior]

Yeah it's only been about Ch11 with GM, nothing else. I think they're reluctant to file for Ch11 because they're worried about the perception effect it may have on the brand. However in my humble opinion they would be better off (in the long run) going for it because it will allow the company to restructure from top to tail - which is what it needs.

Ch11 bankruptcy protection will allow the company to break contracts, dissolve unworkable or costly agreements (see how the UAW are against GM going into Chapter 11 - they will lose all the cushy worker entitlements) and downsize the top-heavy operations to something that is more sustainable.

I think that GM is in this position now because of producing cars it thought people wanted, but actually didnt. Once fuel prices skyrocketed, the wheels of doom were set in motion. That combined with those crippling UAW legacy costs conspired together to bring the giant to it's knees.

[mmciau]

Current details for 84 006 893 232

This extract is based on information supplied by businesses to the Registrar of the Australian Business Register. Neither the Registrar nor the Federal Government guarantee this information is accurate, up to date or complete. Consider verifying this information from other sources.
ABN: 84 006 893 232
View ABN history (http://www.abr.business.gov.au/(xqnx3455xl05jd45e3b231ju)/abnDetails.aspx?History=True&abn=84006893232&ResultListURL=search.aspx%253fSearchRequest%253dGM %25252bHolden%25252bLtd%25255e%25252c1%25252c0%252 52c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c1%25252c0%25252 c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0 %25252c%25252c0%2526amp%253bstart%253d0)
Last modified: 01 Jun 2005
ABN status: Active from 01 Jul 2000
Entity name: GM HOLDEN LTD
Entity type: Australian Public Company (http://www.abr.business.gov.au/(xqnx3455xl05jd45e3b231ju)/entityTypeDetails.aspx?SearchText=23&ReturnURL=abnDetails.aspx%253fabn%253d84006893232&ResultListURL=search.aspx%253fSearchRequest%253dGM %25252bHolden%25252bLtd%25255e%25252c1%25252c0%252 52c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c1%25252c0%25252 c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0%25252c0 %25252c%25252c0%2526amp%253bstart%253d0)
GST status: Effective from 01 Jul 2000

GM Holden Ltd is an Australian registered Company. It would have to be given every consideration under Australian Companies Law


Mike

[banarcus]

That doesn't mean that Holden will not be sold though. GM have more profitable brands that the US Government want them to sell off to become more profitable so where does that leave GMH who are building cars in a shrinking segment in a very tiny market? The Falcon is pretty much doomed too.

About the only place where GM are making a profit is in China due to low wages etc. If you expect GMH to continue selling large sedans, they may very well be built in China or Thailand.

[theVman]

Chapter 11 would make sense - as they Union agreements set up many years ago certainly aren't helping things.

I think we should be very concerned about the Commodore and GMH especially now GM are looking at exporting the Impala etc back into the GMH export markets. Bit of a shame but I can see the rescue packages are forcing them to do this in making a positive business case to the government.

[BigFella]

i was just told GM is cutting australian production by 50%...


can anyone confirm?

[scatman]

You heard right


http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25282805-5006301,00.html

[BigFella]

Honda did this at the start of the year, The Swindon Plant in UK shut down alltogether, Thailand went from 3 shifts a day to one and japan shut down lots of production too.

You cant get a 2009 built honda till July this year, only get 08 built and 09 complied!

[shakows]

GM will go into some sort of Bankrupcy, they need to sort out the UAW mess
Ford sorted its mess out last year and hence the reason why its not begging for money

But the longer it takes the more its hurting them
If it takes to long, it might go Chapter 7, rather then Chapter 11

They should bite the bullet, enter Chapter 11, sort of the mess and come out stronger for it

[theVman]

I heard Ford seemed to be fairly under control. Good to see they got in and sorted out their issues.

GM really needs to sort out the union issue as well.

In regards to Holden cutting the 2nd shift it is good to see they are working hard to keep staff on. I know its still not great but its certainly a lot better than sacking a large portion of one shift.

[Nitronic12]

What if GM sold Holden?

[Fnomna]

Well, that depends who buys them. But I think no matter who it is, our local Holden team of designers and engineers have more than enough know-how and experience to continue to produce excellent cars. They are now used to having a 'parts bin' to choose components from, so another owner would just have another lot of components - which Holden would know how to combine best for an Australian car, just as they've always done.
I think that they would even do better with a different, more capable owner that is in a better financial position. Maybe then they would be able to provide Holden with more freedom to do what they think is best, not what GM tells them they need. But I don't think GM will want to lose Holden - they're pretty good value for money in terms of output compared to cost.
Given Holden's history of sharing Vauxhall/Opel designs, I think they would be a good new owner.
We'll just have to wait and see...

[Anubis]

Chapter 11 is a scary thing for GM and / or Chrysler though. Would you as a buyer want to buy a car from a car manufacturer that is bankrupt? It will hurt sales, even if the US government has agreed to cover warranty costs if GM and Chrysler can't fulfill their obligations.
With the departure of Rick, and placement of Fritz, it is almost like the US government is saying, You did a good job Rick, but it's not quick enough. So Fritz now has 60 days to get on track, otherwise chapter 11 is on the way. Now Rick was dead against chapter 11, for the reason above, but Fritz is fairly open to it.
The only way I can see GM avoiding chapter 11, is that with this 60 day deadline, it might make the union come to the table in terms of negotiation.

[crYnOid]

Chapter 11 is a scary thing for GM and / or Chrysler though. Would you as a buyer want to buy a car from a car manufacturer that is bankrupt? It will hurt sales, even if the US government has agreed to cover warranty costs if GM and Chrysler can't fulfill their obligations.
With the departure of Rick, and placement of Fritz, it is almost like the US government is saying, You did a good job Rick, but it's not quick enough. So Fritz now has 60 days to get on track, otherwise chapter 11 is on the way. Now Rick was dead against chapter 11, for the reason above, but Fritz is fairly open to it.
The only way I can see GM avoiding chapter 11, is that with this 60 day deadline, it might make the union come to the table in terms of negotiation.

As I just wrote on another forum...

Simply put AIG is about to sink GM. Reason? Credit Default Swaps

GM is trying to get a deal with their bondholders to reduce debt, something like 10c for every $1 owed or debt for equity. Bondholders are stonewalling them.

The reason for this is that the bondholders are believed to have CDS agreements with AIG that if GM can't pay back it's debt that AIG will pay back the full amount owed. i.e. dollar for dollar. So why should a bondholder make ANY consessions to GM? When GM falls, bondholders get 100% of their money back PLUS how ever much they get back from the bankruptcy. They will make a PROFIT on GM's bankruptcy!

GM is doomed into bankruptcy, but they aren't the one's too get completely butt ****ed without lube.

The US tax payer is. The US Gov. has agreed to cover all of AIG CDS agreements. So the US Gov. will pay bondholders $50B odd for sending GM into bankruptcy which the US Gov. will then pay billion to keep GM going.


You don't need to worry about the union, they wont be the major problem...

[planetdavo]

and if thats building old model Daewoos in Adelaide then so be it.
New Delta 11 platform from the new Astra, all new body and interior, 09 Astra engines etc.
Come on Mr T, fess up on your bias. :)
Time will tell how GM go.
Nissan went bust and were taken over by Renault years ago.
Mazda went bust and were taken over by Ford years ago (percentage now reduced to help Ford recover).

[Da Burb]

As far as I'm aware....Holden and GM (USA) are no longer really 'related'...or rather...they are financially independent of eachother.
What this means is GM has no bearing on what GMH do and vice versa.
Holden were going down the drain a few years back (before the release of the VT I believe) so GM pulled financial support and cut GMH free (basically...if you go down...we're not going with you).
Well....then GMH started to stand on their own and haven't really looked back since.
Of course....there is still a relationship there....but no financial support from GM in the US.
Most of my US buddies believe it's a race to liquidation between Ford, GM and Chrysler.

[Ausmartin1]

As far as I'm aware....Holden and GM (USA) are no longer really 'related'...or rather...they are financially independent of eachother.

The more intersting / sinister thing that GMH's regional head office is in China Shanghi.
Now I hope they don't take a real liking to GMH and go Yum Yum will take it lock stock and barrel and produce out of China were the dollar is limbo artists toe nail and then we loose Australian quality Assembly.

God knows what going to happen, but GMH people do some amazing work compared to the rest and we'd hate to loose them to Mr & Mrs Mandarin YumYum, home of CCC & ECC products.
(Cheap Chinese Crap & Expensive Chinese Crap - Take your pick)
GreatWallMotors will be here soon with Utes ........:spew: followed by Cherry :rofl:

[Road Warrior]

(Cheap Chinese Crap & Expensive Chinese Crap - Take your pick)
GreatWallMotors will be here soon with Utes ........:spew: followed by Cherry :rofl:

Please dear God, no.

[Dougy]

Sorry to go off topic, I was watching fox news channel yesterday and a reporter was interviewing a GM dealer in Chicago asking him what are his biggest sellers. The dealer said the top one was a Buick suv and the second one was the Pontiac G8.

[llucie]

As far as I'm aware....Holden and GM (USA) are no longer really 'related'...or rather...they are financially independent of eachother.
What this means is GM has no bearing on what GMH do and vice versa.
Holden were going down the drain a few years back (before the release of the VT I believe) so GM pulled financial support and cut GMH free (basically...if you go down...we're not going with you).
Well....then GMH started to stand on their own and haven't really looked back since.
Of course....there is still a relationship there....but no financial support from GM in the US.
Most of my US buddies believe it's a race to liquidation between Ford, GM and Chrysler. GMH is a subsidary of GM , GMH needs approval (within reason) for anything they do from GM - Ford Australia is the same , parent company is Ford Motor Company - GM bailed GMH out for many millions some years ago and the Australian Govt has also given local car companies handouts to help them through rough patches (Mitsubishi was the latest). GMH exports are down by 80% and local large car sales are down over 20%

Probably the question would be " is GMH a good buy " - if GMH were cut loose from GM the bet is that Holden will lose all their exports as a restructured GM will take them on themselves - with large cars on a downward slide and no exports , Holden's immediate future would look deciededly bleak , a potential purchaser would need to be global enough to have the resources to prop up the operation to keep it viable for the future , probably need to be a European or Chinese company as they seem to be the only ones that have any $$$ at the moment and maybe for a while into the future.

[ti0350]

Holden's immediate future would look deciededly bleak , a potential purchaser would need to be global enough to have the resources to prop up the operation to keep it viable for the future , probably need to be a European or Chinese company as they seem to be the only ones that have any $$$ at the moment and maybe for a while into the future.
If it has to happen I'm praying it's a euro company imagine how hard a commodore would go with benz or bmw V8 in it..
My bet is though things will be ok for Holden..

[llucie]

If it has to happen I'm praying it's a euro company imagine how hard a commodore would go with benz or bmw V8 in it..
My bet is though things will be ok for Holden.. Probably need to look at a Bigger company than either of those , my guess would be VW .

[planetdavo]

Probably need to look at a Bigger company than either of those , my guess would be VW .
Which is actually owned by Porsche...

[Martin_D]

Which is actually owned by Porsche...

And are currently cutting production by 40%.
My industry insider guess is that Tata might be sniffing around GMH looking at a potential partnership :eek:

[dmenace]

And are currently cutting production by 40%.
My industry insider guess is that Tata might be sniffing around GMH looking at a potential partnership :eek:

If thats true we actually get a diesel commodore lol

[SV346]

If any of these cheap ass crap slave worker malaysian/chinese or whatever countries have anything to do with a holden ownership, they can kiss any sale from me goodbye, id rather buy european. And excuse my ignorance if they already do have a minor ownership ill sell my holden when i can afford to and buy something else after some research. Im just sick of these s..theap countries doing what they do best, wait for shit to hit the fan then run in to pick up the pieces cheap because they cant do anything right themselves they have to leech off everything else then subsequently ruin the dignity of the company they have "aquired".

[planetdavo]

And are currently cutting production by 40%.
My industry insider guess is that Tata might be sniffing around GMH looking at a potential partnership :eek:

That's not necessarily a negative.
Tata own Jaguar, and it's been made clear that they are basically paying the bills, but leaving Jag management to continue the rebirth the brand is currently enjoying (within reason obviously, as per any company).


If any of these cheap ass crap slave worker malaysian/chinese or whatever countries have anything to do with a holden ownership, they can kiss any sale from me goodbye, id rather buy european. And excuse my ignorance if they already do have a minor ownership ill sell my holden when i can afford to and buy something else after some research. Im just sick of these s..theap countries doing what they do best, wait for shit to hit the fan then run in to pick up the pieces cheap because they cant do anything right themselves they have to leech off everything else then subsequently ruin the dignity of the company they have "aquired".
Volkswagen make cars in China, and in recent years, one of their models was sold in Australia. :teach:

[Martin_D]

While Holden might not remain the same, being given direction, engineering, and most importantly funding form an automotive giant the likes of Tata could only ever be a step in the right direction. Have a look at their new Tata Nano, a revolutionary car developed and designed with true vision rather than stamping out the same old muck :teach:

Rohan (?) Tata is an extremely smart operator and an automotive visionary that has the ability to take a company like GMH to the next level. Remember when the diehards nearly puked as Renault took over Nissan? Its Ghons and Tatas that the world needs right now, not shiny bum executives that plunge companies further into debt :cool:

[SV346]

Good thing i dont like vw's then :p Its an unfortunate thing when chinas growth is purely based on being a cheapass country with no workers rights, and here, are companies that know alot better, supporting that s..t :(
Does anyone know where volvos are made if they arent made in sweden? :)

[Martin_D]

Volkswagen make cars in China, and in recent years, one of their models was sold in Australia. :teach:

Isnt the General Motors Asia/Pacific headquarters in Shanghai China? :eek:

[planetdavo]

Isnt the General Motors Asia/Pacific headquarters in Shanghai China? :eek:
Considering many parts of many major brands all come from China these days, people need to wake up to how the world has gone. If you all want cheaper cars, you will pay the price later on. :teach:
I paid about 40K for a new VR SS in 95, and 14 years later, you can buy a massively better VE SS for only 10% extra. Considering inflation puts up everything around 3% every year, the price cuts are obviously coming from somewhere...


Remember when the diehards nearly puked as Renault took over Nissan?
It certainly saved Nissan, but unfortunately (and most seem to agree), it led to the Pulsar being replaced with that "Renault" Tiida...:spew:


Good thing i dont like vw's then :p Its an unfortunate thing when chinas growth is purely based on being a cheapass country with no workers rights, and here, are companies that know alot better, supporting that s..t :(
Does anyone know where volvos are made if they arent made in sweden?
http://volvoadventures.com/assemblyplants.html
According to this, Volvo currently make cars in South Africa, Thailand and Malaysia...:)

[Martin_D]

It certainly saved Nissan, but unfortunately (and most seem to agree), it led to the Pulsar being replaced with that "Renault" Tiida...:spew:

Thats no great loss, the last good Pulsar was the N12 ET turbo :cool:

[planetdavo]

Thats no great loss, the last good Pulsar was the N12 ET turbo :cool:
Serious!
They were a massively laggy, poor handling tin can on wheels. The N14 SSS with the SR20 was a much better car.

[Martin_D]

Whoa Davo, ease up....
In 1984 they were as quick as anything Holden built at the time, including some HDT cars, with a low 16 second quarter mile out the box, and a 190 - 200km/h top speed. All from 1500cc, what a great little rocket :cool:

N14s are a hair dressers car :(

[XUV]

maybe they'll have a huge garage sale
and we'll all get a cheap LS3 :)

[planetdavo]

N14s are a hair dressers car :(
Not the under 2 litre production car version I was taken around the rob roy hill climb track in. That was a little rocket, all with limited modifications allowed over the "stock" SSS..:woohoo:

[Martin_D]

Yeah but an Epica diesel impresses you Davo :lol:
Didnt Skaifey get his break winning the Puslar ET Turbo Championship :eek:

[Jac001]

Ok this is my take on things: (all things below are my own thoughts and are in no relation to me working at holdens)

Chapter 11:

This allows GM and its creditors (under supervision) to renegotate its contracts. Under chapter 11 GM can't just break its contracts, other parties (eg UAW/ bond holder/ banks) etc must agree to the changes. The difference to what they are going through now, is that a judge can enforce an agreement if they think it is the best deal for everyone.

However the creditors can force gm into chapter 7 bankrupty, if they can show the courts they are better off doing this than accepting any agreement GM and the courts decide on.

Chapter 7: GM is forced to pay everything it owes based on its contractual agreements. If they don't have the cash they will be expected to sell off assest to cover the debt.


So where does that leave GM:

Currently it is business as usual for GM while it renogaites its contracts.

Under chapter 11:

This becomes complicated, because it relies on more parties to dictate what will happen. This is very dangerous for GM for a number of reasons:

- GM will have to find some of the money for these procedings (est total cost ~$100B. as GM is broke the government will have to cover most of this)
- It removes power from GM to negotate, to the hands of a judge or creditors
- Removes customer confidence in buying a gm product

Under chapter 7: gm will end up selling everything as their is speculation that GM is insolvent (owes more than it has).


My best guess:

GM will be forced into chapter 11. I expect once this happens one or more comapines will step in and offer to buy Gm (for a bargin discount) and cover a small proportion of GM's debt.

The 'proposed new owners' will have to offer the creditors (bondholders / banks/ ) a good enough deal to be happy with them, while allowing the new owners to cut alot of the cost out of the UAW /dealers / suppliers contracts. This is a very fine line to walk. They have to show that this will be the best deal anyone will get to force an agreement.
That is, the alternative (chapter 7) will be worse for everyone.

If agreement isn't reach the 'proposed new owners' can just walk away.


Wether an agreement can be reached at this piont or if gm is forced into chapter 7 is anyones guess.

What this means for Holdens: (my opinion)

only 4 senarios
- holdens stays as part of GM (either under new or old ownership)
- holdens is sold to a 3rd party
- holden is spun off into its own company
- Holdens is shut down as their is no money to keep operations going


The first 2 are most likely in my opinion:

Holdens is a recognised brand name, has a extensive dealership network, aleady has secured governemnt funding for new projects (delta II) and its operations in australia are profitable (both in the short and long term).

This makes it a good investment for GM to keep or to sell off (if required).

Any sale of holden will include some sort of clause that the current platform design/ hfv6 engines can be used for a few years, untill the factory and foundry can be retooled. (however depending on what happens to the rest of GM, v8 / transmission/ other gm parts, may need to be sourced from elsewhere or dropped if not required.)

Once again these are my private thoughts and not related to my employment at holdens (i just want to make it very clear i am not speaking on behalf of the company).

[planetdavo]

Yeah but an Epica diesel impresses you Davo :lol:
Didnt Skaifey get his break winning the Puslar ET Turbo Championship :eek:
I believe any number of exotics impress me far more Mr T, just you love trying to get extended mileage out of your claims of Epica "love". Careful, you'll soon need to take up an extended warranty plan it's getting that old...:)

[ti0350]

Careful, you'll soon need to take up an extended warranty plan it's getting that old...:)

Hope it's not a Holden extended warranty we all know they aren't worth the paper their written on.. :eyes: :hide:

[planetdavo]

Hope it's not a Holden extended warranty we all know they aren't worth the paper their written on.. :eyes: :hide:
Mr T's running joke is nearly as old as the factory 3 year/100,000km warranty. Doesn't matter what brand of extended warranty is chosen...:lmao:

[Martin_D]

Mr T's running joke is nearly as old as the factory 3 year/100,000km warranty. Doesn't matter what brand of extended warranty is chosen...:lmao:

At least my joke makes it to the end of that term.....though its questionable whether the Epica will :)

[planetdavo]

At least my joke makes it to the end of that term.....though its questionable whether the Epica will :)
I think everyone will be happy to see the end of the Epica, including Holden. :)

[Martin_D]

You heard it first here........Davo is officially a non-fan of at least one Holden product :bow:

[planetdavo]

You heard it first here........Davo is officially a non-fan of at least one Holden product :bow:
There's other models I'm also not a fan of, just like there's forum d!ckheads I'm also not a fan of...:)

[Martin_D]

There's other models I'm also not a fan of, just like there's forum d!ckheads I'm also not a fan of...:)

Tell us Davo, who rocks your boat, other than the guy that brings back the JD Camira dizzy cap you sold him insisting its actually from a JE :hide:

[planetdavo]

Tell us Davo, who rocks your boat, other than the guy that brings back the JD Camira dizzy cap you sold him insisting its actually from a JE :hide:
GD697 can fit both an unleaded JD and a JE....:stick:

[Martin_D]

Oh yeah?
What about he Memcals....AMXY0662 wont fit BZY0056 :lol:
Nothing, but nothing beats the superb rocketship that was Piazza though. If Holden had cool cars like JE Camira, and Piazza now they wouldnt be staring down the barrel :eek:

[Da Burb]

GM in "intense" preparations for bankruptcy
According to Reuters, GM’s new plan would see its core brands move quickly in and out of bankruptcy while its non-core brands would stay under bankruptcy protection for longer – essentially creating two companies. The “new” GM would likely contain Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC while the “old” GM would represent Saab, Saturn and Hummer. It remains unclear which camp Pontiac would belong to.

Companies in the old GM would be kept in bankruptcy until they were sold or killed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5363ZM20090407

By Chelsea Emery and Soyoung Kim

NEW YORK/DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp is in "intense" and "earnest" preparations for a possible bankruptcy filing, a source familiar with the company's plans told Reuters on Tuesday.

A plan to split the corporation into a "new" company made up of the most successful units, and an "old" one of its less-profitable units, is gaining momentum and is seen as the most sensible configuration, said another source familiar with the talks.

If the plan goes through, the new GM would be expected to assume some previous creditor debt from bankruptcy proceedings, such as secured debt, said the second source, adding that GM bondholders were likely to lose substantial value in bankruptcy.

Certain GM dealer and litigation claims would also be hurt if the new company structure is used as part of a company bankruptcy, said the second source.

The sources requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the record.

GM declined to comment.

Shares of GM fell almost 12 percent on the New York Stock Exchange to end at $2.00.

GM bonds were mixed in afternoon trading, with GM's benchmark 8.375 percent note up less than 1 cent on the dollar to 11.75 cents, yielding more than 70 percent, versus about 11 cents with a 75 percent yield on Monday, according to MarketAxess data. The bond had slipped in earlier trading.

Two other GM notes were slightly lower in late afternoon trading.

OPTIONS FOR GM

GM, operating on $13.4 billion of government loans since the start of the year, has until June 1 to complete a reorganization plan. The government has warned that the alternative would be bankruptcy.

The company is under pressure to cut unsecured debt by two-thirds, turn half its remaining payments into a union healthcare trust in the form of equity rather than cash, and reduce hourly wages and benefits to match those paid by foreign automakers.

Chrysler, owned by Cerberus Capital Management LP, is also facing possible bankruptcy. The automaker has until April 30 to complete an alliance with Italian automaker Fiat.

Moody's Investor Service said in a note dated Monday that it maintains its view for a 70 percent risk of bankruptcy for Detroit's three automakers given the difficulty of restructuring out of court.

GM Chief Executive Fritz Henderson has said the company prefers to restructure out of court but that it could go to court if needed.

"If a company of this size files for bankruptcy, they have to be preparing for it now as time is running out and bankruptcy becomes more real," said Van Conway, a turnaround expert at Conway MacKenzie.

"But I think they should attempt to avoid it because emerging out of bankruptcy would be very difficult. Given its very large, global operations and various stakeholders, the process will take a lot longer than what people think," Conway said.

BANKRUPTCY NOT EASY

Canadian Industry Minister Tony Clement said on Tuesday that the Canadian government must be prepared for GM or Chrysler to enter bankruptcy protection.

Some bankruptcy experts say a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing could help GM reorganize by allowing it to restructure its debt and force changes to contracts with dealers, unions and suppliers. But the process could be disruptive, or derailed, said Patrick Carothers, a partner at Thorp, Reed & Armstrong LLP.

For example, if auto-parts makers lose the ability to collect money owed, the industry as a whole could suffer. In addition, GM could lose control over its restructuring as the formation of a new company would be in the hands of a bankruptcy judge, not corporate executives or their advisers.

"The dangers of a bankruptcy are significant," said Carothers, who has parts suppliers and car dealers as clients. "I don't believe a bankruptcy is inevitable. There's still a lot of political pressure to save it."

Last month, GM offered bondholders 8 cents on the dollar in cash, 16 cents on the dollar in new unsecured debt, and a 90 percent stake in the automaker, one person with knowledge of the term sheet told Reuters.

(Reporting by Chelsea Emery in New York and Soyoung Kim in Detroit; Additional reporting by Dena Aubin, Walden Siew in New York; Editing by Derek Caney, Matthew Lewis and Toni Reinhold)

Potential GM bankruptcy plan includes company split
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE53005220090401

By Emily Chasan

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A possible bankruptcy plan being discussed for General Motors (GM.N) includes quickly forming a new company of the automaker's most profitable parts, while a group of other units would remain under bankruptcy protection for a longer period, a source familiar with the plans told Reuters on Tuesday.

GM also would seek to have a new deal in place with the United Auto Workers union prior to any bankruptcy filing, the source said.

GM warned earlier on Tuesday that there is a rising chance it could file for bankruptcy by June, as the company has 60 days to reach deeper concessions with bondholders and unions after its previous restructuring plan was rejected by the U.S. government as insufficient.

While the automakers would still prefer to avoid bankruptcy, advisers to both GM and Chrysler LLC have been working to prepare for potential bankruptcy filings that would aim to preserve, or sell off, the best parts of the companies.

Under the plans being considered, GM would seek to quickly move its most profitable units into a new company separate from its other units in the early days of the bankruptcy filing, said the source who asked to remain anonymous because the person was not authorized to speak to the media.

The aim would be to show consumers, taxpayers, and the government that the new GM can survive and compete in the autos sector as a viable company, the source said.

Old components of the company not included in the new GM, such as Saturn and Hummer, would remain in bankruptcy over a longer period of time to be sold or wound down, said the source.

During a transition period, the new GM would have to coordinate with the old GM for some time and share certain operational activities, like accounting and insurance, the source said.

GM has recently made progress on its negotiations with the United Auto Workers, winning deep concessions on healthcare and entry-level wages, but negotiations are ongoing over the fate of its obligations to 775,000 retirees.

As part of the negotiations to reduce or eliminate certain retiree benefits, the union is likely to seek some compensation, which could include a stake in the new GM, cash from a sale of the new GM, or any other source of funds, the source said.

Bondholders, a key constituency in the GM restructuring have said they were braced for a reduced offer of "pennies on the dollar" for about $28 billion in GM debt.

(Reporting by Emily Chasan; additional reporting by Chelsea Emery and Tom Hals; editing by Carol Bishopric)

[shakows]

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25327283-31037,00.html

Pretty much inevitable now

[pagey]

I might go out and buy a heap of Holden spare parts.. they will increase in value like Gold.

Perhaps Davo is really a visionary....

[Martin_D]

Perhaps Davo is really a visionary....

A Moses of the Microfiche :lol:

[Goggles]

I might go out and buy a heap of Holden spare parts.. they will increase in value like Gold.

why??

my understanding is that the result of the bankruptcy is a reorganisation of GM into two companies - the good and the bad.

the good will include those parts of GM that are viable in the long term, such as Holden.

the bad will include those parts that are not viable, and can be sold off over time.

[pagey]

I guess I put my faith in the knoweldge and intellect that is Planet Davo.. thats all. :)

After all.. there isn;t much that he doesn;t know when it comes to Holden!.. or Nissan.. or Mazda.. Totota.. Chrysler.. Tata.. Mahindra..

[planetdavo]

I don't know much about Mahindra...:confused:
Must go to night school! :idea:
I'm a bit higher up than the simple parts "jock" certain members think I am these days. Why shouldn't I maintain an interest in what the industry is up to? I could, of course, just post up useless crap like some do on this forum instead....:spew:


A Moses of the Microfiche
Microfiche went out with N13 Pulsars. You should keep up with technology..:teach:

[pagey]

I don't know much

I'm a bit higher up than the simple parts "jock" certain members think I am these days.

What is it that you actually do then Davo if you don't mind me asking.. ?

[planetdavo]

What is it that you actually do then Davo if you don't mind me asking.. ?
A position high enough that they give me a new car and a fuel card, plus the big owner that only visits occasionally knows me by first name. He seems pretty happy with me. :)

[STATIE]

A position high enough that they give me a new car and a fuel card, plus the big owner that only visits occasionally knows me by first name. He seems pretty happy with me. :)

Ahhh - so you get the lunches & make good coffee then?:D

[kayman]

Ahhh - so you get the lunches & make good coffee then?:D

No... he makes REALLY good hot coffee ;)

[Excellent]

What's your job title Davo?

[Martin_D]

Top Poster :lol:

[pagey]

A position high enough that they give me a new car and a fuel card, plus the big owner that only visits occasionally knows me by first name. He seems pretty happy with me. :)

I take it you don't want to say then?

Sounds like a taxi driver lol :)

[Excellent]

Top Poster :lol:

He's got too much time on his hands. He can't be anything too important. Does he even own any of his cars?

[EgoFG]

why??

my understanding is that the result of the bankruptcy is a reorganisation of GM into two companies - the good and the bad.

the good will include those parts of GM that are viable in the long term, such as Holden.

Intercompany transfer bodging aside, I saw figures somewhere that implied that holden's record of profitability was not among the best in the GM world.
I don't know the I would assume holden would be placed in the 'good'.
But being in the 'bad' may lead to e good change in ownership for holden.

[mac06]

If the media spent more time talking up the economy instead we may all be better off. Just because you're an editor of a car magazine it doesn't necessarily mean you're an expert. That's just an opinion being expressed.

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25331630-31037,00.html


AUSTRALIA'S car industry will not survive the economic recession, and Holden will probably be the first to go, an industry expert says.
Editor of the car buyers Dog & Lemon Guide, Clive Matthew-Wilson, said the Australian car manufacturer is poised to shut down for good because it can no longer compete in the global market.

Holden signalled the beginning of the end when it recently halved production at its South Australian plant, he said.

In early April the company announced that from May 4 it will reduce production at its Adelaide plant from about 600 vehicles a day to 310, citing reduced demand in domestic and export markets.

"Australia's car factories are losing money on every vehicle they make," Mr Matthew-Wilson said in a statement.

"No amount of incentives from the state and federal governments can solve this basic problem.

"It's not a matter of whether they close down, but when they close down."

He said Holden will be the first to go, followed by Ford and then Toyota.

"People falsely believe that Ford is doing okay. That's not true," he said.

"Ford is losing billions just like GM; it's just that Ford arranged private sector finance before the recession, so it's not quite so obvious how serious things are."

Amid the financial turmoil, the big three US car makers - Ford, Chrysler and Holden owner General Motors - have asked the US government for a loan guarantee of $US25 billion ($37.51 billion).

Earlier this year Toyota, the world's No.1 car maker and Australian market leader, accepted a $35 million federal government grant to build a hybrid version of its four-cylinder Camry sedan in Melbourne from 2010.

But Mr Matthew-Wilson said the money is a waste.

"Globally, there's a glut of new cars at bargain prices, yet Australia, which produces a small number of high cost cars, is trying to compete with countries like China, which produces ten million cars a year and pays its car workers as little as one dollar per hour.

"The Australian government can throw $6 billion or $600 billion at these car plants, but they still won't be economically feasible," he said.

"Australia's car plants are losing money faster than a drunk at a casino and there's no feasible way of turning this around.

"The Australian car industry can re-focus on small cars, green cars, blue cars or red cars. None of this will make the slightest difference."

Mr Matthew-Wilson believes the government money would have been better spent by giving it to the affected car workers.

[GODSMACK]

A position high enough that they give me a new car and a fuel card, plus the big owner that only visits occasionally knows me by first name. He seems pretty happy with me. :)
:jerk: ........ I can think of plenty of 'first' names that he may refer to you as....

[Fnomna]

Vauxhall/Opel could be sold. Hmm - I wonder what that would mean for Holden's continued sourcing of European lines...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/5141599/Shanghai-car-maker-SAIC-makes-approach-for-Vauxhall.html


Shanghai-based SAIC has requested a sale document from General Motors (GM), the stricken US car-maker, which has warned that it may file for bankruptcy in an effort to ensure its survival.

Commerzbank, the German banking group, is orchestrating the sale process on behalf of GM, which is to establish a new subsidiary comprising Vauxhall and Opel, the German car manufacturer. A new investor would be invited to acquire a controlling stake in the company, with GM potentially retaining a minority interest.


Have to wait until the 60 days is up to find out the fate of Holden. I'm guessing GM will retain it.

[Marco]

Probably would make near as no difference - the only Opel that Holden sells in significant numbers anymore is the Astra, and Holden would probably be just as happy to sell Australian-made Cruzes to Astra customers instead!

[fyreblade2000]

AFP
April 14, 2009 12:00am
THE US Treasury Department has told General Motors to make all necessary preparations for a possible bankruptcy filing by June 1, even though the troubled car maker insists it can restructure its business on its own.

Citing unnamed people "with knowledge of the plans", The New York Times said the instructions had been conveyed by members of President Barack Obama's automotive task force, who spent last week in meetings and on conference calls with GM in Detroit and Washington.

The talks are expected to continue this week, the report said.

According to the paper, the goal is to prepare GM for a fast "surgical" bankruptcy.

The car maker already has been granted $US13.4 billion ($A18.9 billion) in federal aid, and its managers are insisting the company's image should not be damaged.

The preparations are aimed at assuring a GM bankruptcy filing is ready should the company be unable to reach agreement with bondholders to exchange $US28 billion in debt into equity in GM and with the United Automobile Workers union, which has baulked at granting concessions without sacrifices from bondholders, The Times said.

[planetdavo]

He's got too much time on his hands. He can't be anything too important. Does he even own any of his cars?
I'm very efficient with my time usage. It doesn't take all that much time correcting all the inaccurate crap posts on this forum. :)
Plus I own my CV8. Maybe that's what "my CV8" means...:lmao:


I take it you don't want to say then?
Sounds like a taxi driver
I can tell other people to drive taxis. :)

[Ewok]

Really? being a spare parts salesman I am sure you would have MORE than ample time sitting around doing not much to be efficient with it.

[planetdavo]

Really? being a spare parts salesman I am sure you would have MORE than ample time sitting around doing not much to be efficient with it.
And that is the reason why telling any of you any more isn't worth the effort!
Forums with stupid, simpleton posts from people with no idea about the industry.

[Ewok]

Yes dave, the industry of spare parts perhaps. Not the car industry itself.

[planetdavo]

Sorry, didn't realise the parts industry isn't heavily affected by the new car industry's health...:rolleyes:

[pagey]

Forums with stupid, simpleton posts from people with no idea about the industry.

hahaha..

Errrr..

Top Posters

planetdavo 6646
vt2vx 5836
markone2 5130
XLR8 V8 4943
Wonky 4330

[Ewok]

hahaha..

Errrr..

Top Posters

planetdavo 6646
vt2vx 5836
markone2 5130
XLR8 V8 4943
Wonky 4330

Enough said.

[planetdavo]

hahaha..

Errrr..

Top Posters

planetdavo 6646
vt2vx 5836
markone2 5130
XLR8 V8 4943
Wonky 4330
At least I don't sit back saying nothing, just because I don't want to offend some of the forum members extremely delicate ego's. :teach:
You should try it sometime. :)

[Ewok]

Yeah but mate, what you have to say doesn't concern me in the slightest. At the end of the day, you're a spare parts salesman working a dead end job in the sector of the car industry no one really cares about. Don't bother replying, because I really couldn't care less your opinion either way.

Cheers :goodjob:

[planetdavo]

:lmao::lmao::lmao:
But my "dead end job" pays me well, and gives me regular new cars with free fuel. :)

[Ghia351]

Maybe we should switch to bagging the Territory rather then each other, it's getting tiresome and somewhat like canabilism at least when you all bag Fords it has some sense of natural order :jester:...

...or maybe slightly more on topic, it seems Ford US convinced some of it's creditors to switch debt for equity removing $US9 billion of debt and saving upto $500 million in annual interest charges ( or something like this) ....hopefully GM can make a similar deal as Ford also managed to renegotiate with its unions as well.

[macca33]

Yes, enough of the rubbish towards people and their occupations. Forum banter is one thing, but some of these posts are becoming far too personal and insulting. Next one in will be taking a no-expenses-paid forum holiday.

That, I can guarantee.

[Ausmartin1]

[QUOTE=fyreblade2000;1481081][I]AFP
April 14, 2009 12:00am
THE US Treasury Department has told General Motors to make all necessary preparations for a possible bankruptcy filing by June 1, even though the troubled car maker insists it can restructure its business on its own."

Looks like June 1 is the day GM will be split into Good and Bad portions to save the good parts.
It's the only way, GM's current % market share cannot sustain the past monolith size of GM especially in the USA -there crappy structure that favour a growing business - not a down sizing one.

Bring it on I say, so all can get over it.
It has to be done!
:soap:

[pagey]

At least I don't sit back saying nothing, just because I don't want to offend some of the forum members extremely delicate ego's. :teach:
You should try it sometime. :)

That would be the first time I have been accused of sitting back and saying nothing! lol.

I am a shrinking violet :jester:

[Ewok]

I say let em go bankrupt. I know the fallout due to all the workers losing their jobs will be catastrophic, and there should be compensation for those people (in any way shape or form possible) but beating a dead horse and throwing away good money while the execs are trying to use that money to pay themselves out, is just not going to work. I am sure that someone would eventually come along and take over the company, or at least the factories and so forth, hopefully the workforce could be re-employed in such a scenario, either that or what has already been stated, declare bankruptcy and f**k off the unions, get their feet back on solid ground and start listening to the public as to what sort of cars they are after.

[Fnomna]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/29170/gm-prepared-to-give-away-opelvauxhall/

GM prepared to ‘give away’ Opel/Vauxhall


General Motors Corporation is prepared to part with a controlling stake in Opel/Vauxhall for nothing but a pledge to invest directly in a new company formed from its European operations, the Financial Times said on Sunday, citing two people familiar with its plans.

Reuters newsagency quotes the respected British business newspaper as saying an investor will be asked to pay at least 500 million euro, or US$652 million in equity, but GM will realise no financial gain as the money will be injected directly into Opel.

GM is also prepared to unload Saab, its Swedish premium brand that filed for creditor protection in February, for as little as nothing in order to divest the brand, the Financial Times report said.

[snappy]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/29170/gm-prepared-to-give-away-opelvauxhall/

GM prepared to ‘give away’ Opel/Vauxhall

Oh thats nice after they ate all the meat and spat out the carrcus

How GM Destroyed Opel
Pretty damning indictment in today's Die Welt by an "anonymous insider" about how parent company General Motors hollowed out it's successful German subsidiary. According to this account, GM confiscated Opel's valuable patents and designs and then forced the German company to pay outrageous "licensing fees" back to Detroit
These Opel patents were also cited by Chancellor Angela Merkel as a reason for not approving a massive bailout of the German automaker. Without the patents what real value does Opel have? It was thought that these patents had been pledged as collateral to the US Dept. of Treasury for the Bailout package in the US. Now GM denies this:
http://www.dialoginternational.com/...royed-opel.html

GM Says Opel Patents 'Available' To Any New Owner {11/3/2009
GM said patents for all of its brands, belong to a U.S.-based division of the company called the Global Technology Organization.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel cited the uncertainty over the patent ownership in an interview Wednesday with Bild, a daily newspaper. She also said any commitment to aid the auto maker hinged on what level independence an Opel with new investors would have from GM.
A German official last week told Dow Jones Newswires that GM doesn't own Opel patents following the sale of the rights to the U.S. Treasury, adding that the company aimed to repurchase them at a later stage.
GM's Preuss declined to comment on whether GM has put up any of its patents up as collateral for the U.S. government loans keeping GM afloat.
However, he said GM would ensure any new majority shareholder in Opel would have access to the intellectual property
http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-ac...04421052-632164

[Road Warrior]

Personally I think GM should go blow a goat and that Holden, Vauxhall and Opel should all combine as one company to help each other (as it's apparent they have never really had any 'help' from GM).

They can still remain as their individual brand names, but they would have to share debt and development of platforms.

Opel and Vauxhall will make small and mid size cars for Europe, the Asia-Pacific region and Australia, and Holden can make large cars and the LWB for the European market. To give Opel and Vauxhall a replacement for the Carlton/Omega that they never had.

Trouble is, where do you get the money from to buy out Opel and Vauxhall...

[snappy]

Trouble is, where do you get the money from to buy out Opel and Vauxhall...


No really a issue if there prepared to give it away


But you would need to buy holden back and also were would you get the motors from .

[ti0350]

No really a issue if there prepared to give it away


But you would need to buy holden back and also were would you get the motors from .

Maybe they could do deal and get engines from BMW or somebody like that, didnt HSV say they were testing cars with BMW turbo diesels in them.

[snappy]

Maybe they could do deal and get engines from BMW or somebody like that, didnt HSV say they were testing cars with BMW turbo diesels in them.

Lot of if's . I think you will find if gm go bankrupt they will come back just as strong . Just will take a while .
Gm have been reckless with money .
Just a couple of examples
the millions the spent on the corvette for the transformers movie thats never going in to production.
Also countless concept cars that never had plans for production (effigy,coupe 60 ) and there just local ones but heaps more then other company's all very expensive billboards at the end of the day.

They will have to use what money they have more wisely which should end up with better cars.

[shakows]

Well both GM and Chysler have had to take on more money, with GM taking on quite a bit more

This is just hurting them more in the long run, with the UAW and all the other baggage, its just making it a bigger mess

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25368906-31037,00.html

[Mikey]

Personally I think GM should go blow a goatThey may just do that so be careful what you ask for as it will take Pontiac with them!

[Road Warrior]

They may just do that so be careful what you ask for as it will take Pontiac with them!

Big deal. It's not like Holden is totally dependent on G8 exports. The Middle East export market is worth more to Holden than the North American one.

And at least it would kill off the rest of those horrid looking Pontiacs like the Aztec :spew:

[EgoFG]

They will certainly make money on the deal.
Licensing for all existing technologies and designs and possibly brandnames.

This money to GM may dry up as the Europeans recover from the damage that the USA based company has inflicted.

We should watch this closely, as this is also the worst possible outcome for holden (from a GM/holden relationship point of view)

[VW Golf R32]

The question is no longer "what if GM goes bankrupt". The question now is "what happens when GM goes bankrupt"? June 2009 is looks like it will be a very bad month.

[shakows]

The question is no longer "what if GM goes bankrupt". The question now is "what happens when GM goes bankrupt"? June 2009 is looks like it will be a very bad month.

Its looking like that now

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQdI.nZJ3C3o&refer=home

This is the worst new GM could have got

[Martin_D]

This is the worst new GM could have got

This is great for GM....bankruptcy is the only thing that will save them, as Obama letting GM file under bankruptcy protection lets them tell their creditors to get stuffed for the money they owe, effectively keeping the one big tree in the forest alive, and killing off the thousands of little ones around it. Whether this is indeed smart forestry remains to be seen...... :)

[shakows]

This is great for GM....bankruptcy is the only thing that will save them

From that point of view, your right, cut the crap out and move on

Even the GM CEO thinks they will enter bankruptcy now

[Carby650]

It would help kill of that bloody Union agreement which is killing GM , Chrysler & Fraud

[Martin_D]

From that point of view, your right, cut the crap out and move on

Cut the crap out.....in other words bankrupt all of the legitimate component suppliers and satellite businesses and tell them to get stuffed for the money GM owes. Sounds like a plan for a Government run company that has no plans for anything other than Volt and Cruze which have their parts base in Korea.

[fatbob]

Does anyone honestly think that a corp that allowed itself to get in a position where it about to go bankrupt, will change its spots and come up with a plan that works to survive etc.. ? I mean seriously - they must have floated so close to the edge with decisions made in the past where a change in world economic conditions could have meant disaster for them - yet still they did it - and the proof - well look, here they are, about to go.

So to my mind - better if they go - and someone else picks up the pieces and makes better of it, jobs should come back. Without doubt it will have impact to so many people - jobs, pay etc.. - however, I think that may be better than waiting around with the big axe over you, and knowing the person holding the axe is definately incompetent.

Maybe I'd think a lot different if I was employed in the industry, however, I can do one better - I bought from the industry - like pretty much everyone on this forum. So my dollars sustained the industry - and the di**wads running the company I gave my dollars to - have messed up.

Change the guard.

[VX2VESS]

They need to start fresh, sweep out all the history and work on a sustainable business model that makes money.

Not sure dropping the G8 was great, I'm mean if you live over there you can't get a large GM RWD family car now. FWD is ok for shopping, i guess most are not into performance family cars except us.

I might be biased but I would scrap all models over there and use the ones we have here as the new range. Trouble is they are overpriced in production and parts here also thanks to unions, costs need to be less to outdo the competition.

maybe moving to China manufacture is the go, as your not going to reduce costs here or the in US. unless everyone gets less income, which will reduce costs. not what you want but its better than no local companies left.

[Martin_D]

Change the guard.

They have...GM have effectively offered control to the Unions and the Government. Say goodbye to the good stuff like Corvette...and hello to crap like Cruze :(

[fatbob]

Yeah they may have - and the end result maybe the cruz and not the g8 or whatever else they can. However that may keep some jobs flowing, who knows, cos the one thing that I sure of is the folks running the show - are not the folks who should be making decisions - they have shown incompetence so much that maybe consumers are stuck with the cruz as they try and dig their way out.

Automakers got to make a profit - that keeps people in jobs, people investing and all that - otherwise they won't float. So if they sell coupes and fast cars - then they need the right business paradym to do it. And its not you and me write that paradym -= we just support the industry somehow - you obviously more directly.

Its that paradym got to be right - else we in the situation where people worried about jobs, shareholders worried about their savings, and people like me worried about whether they will get parts for their munro in the future.

Only way to get that paradym right - is for someone else to run GM - not GM folks as they have proven inept.

And a cruze is punishment everyone has while good cars to us performance lovers get axed so cars that might sell more don't get axed. We all suffer for big incompetence at the top end in GM.

[TriShield]

Since the US government is taking over the bankruptcy isn't going to be a normal one.

Basically since the Union supports the Democrat party and the current President they will be spared any concessions and will probably be given a majority stake in GM as well as seats on the board. The US government is also doing the same with Chrysler, handing the keys over the UAW.

So the entire point of going bankrupt is pretty much nullified. The Union makes US manufacturing prohibitively expensive and the companies haven't had the customer base to support all those brands, all those plants, all those employees and those big wages and nice pensions for a long time.

How will it affect Holden? Who knows.

Opel is going to be jettisoned to be on it's own or bought by someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened to Holden before the dust clears.

[Fnomna]

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened to Holden before the dust clears.

Ford could buy Holden to get back some market share and make a Falcodore.

[Road Warrior]

Ford could buy Holden to get back some market share and make a Falcodore.

Coz you know that Holden's Motor Body Builders used to make Fords don't you ;)

[Carby650]

Fiat looking to buy GM Euro brands.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/05/2560766.htm

[Marco]

The trouble with all this is that with no money, GM is going to fall behind its competitors in product development and the situation will actually get worse, not better.

Holden is already going though a pretty ordinary period product-wise at the moment (the only bright spots are VE - which isn't selling well - and Captiva IMHO) and it doesn't look like getting better soon if GM has no money and Opel is sold.

[Road Warrior]

How come the Seppos get a hybrid version of the Captiva and we don't?

[ti0350]

How come the Seppos get a hybrid version of the Captiva and we don't?

They also don't pay $500 extra for metallic paint in the G8 like we do on the VE..

[powerd]

So let's do a stocktake....
The world carmarket is in the doldrums - too many cars, too few buyers, little prospect of quick change
GM is broke and probably has been for a very long time
If capitalism actually worked, GM would have failed decades ago and taken Holden with it
GM will almost certainly enter Chapter 11 bamkruptcy in the next several weeks to get protection from creditors unless today's deal which trades virtually all of the creditors' money for equity (in a perilous company) comes off
if that happens, there is a real chance Holden will have to be sold or given away to reduce cash drain on GM

GMH simply could not survive on its own - it's too small to be competitive, it has minimal resources both technogically or $ and bugger=all product that is competitive either here or overseas - and it needs both.

So if this occurs, who would buy/adopt GMH and why?

Fistrly, no car manufacturer needs another car building plant, and certailnly not a low volume, average quality one in Australia. There is a huge oversupply of car building capacity world-wide. Secondly, Holden has little to offer a prospective buyer. Who needs a big, slightly boofy sedan(VE) with american V8s and below average build quality or for that matter, the expertise that put it together from the parts bin? Or designed the fill-in bits like dashboards and seats? Or builds engines someone overseas designed? The brand is largely unrecognised outside Aus, so that's of no significant value. And without all the GM parts supply, the car is not viable in the sort of numbers needed to support a competitive manufacturer about 3 plus times current volume.

By comparison, Jaguar and Landrover offered TATA many things . LR provided a huge international brand presence, world class engineering expertise in luxury offroad 4WDs. Jaguar offered excellence in luxury car engineering and the capacity to build quality products in low volume including aluminium bodied cars using aerospace techniques. Both have a stream of excellent new product in the pipeline and are now profitable and building good relative market recognition in many countries. Both brands offered huge prestige to TATA as well, to go with Tetley's teas and the other overseas companies they own.. Every billionaire entrepreneur wants recognition for their world-conquering brilliance.

Now let's get realistic here. Holden doesn't have much to offer an Indian or Chinese car company, and nothing that a VW, Nissan, Peugeot or perhaps even Fiat would be remotely interested in. So who would throw serious money at buying GMH or paying its bills?

Don't get me wrong - I feel sadness at the demolition of GM and would miss the Holden brand (i almost bought a VE SS recently) even if there's not much about it that is Australian any more. But emotion aside, GMH without the GM in it's name would be like dumping a baby in the middle of Paramatta Road at peak hour - seriously at risk!

Just my opinion ......
Cheers
powerd

[Goggles]

GMH simply could not survive on its own - it's too small to be competitive, it has minimal resources both technogically or $ and bugger=all product that is competitive either here or overseas - and it needs both.

it's small size is one of its advantages - the last Monaro would never have happened if Holden was any bigger.


Who needs a big, slightly boofy sedan(VE)

about 3500 people a month at the moment


By comparison, Jaguar and Landrover offered TATA many things . LR provided a huge international brand presence, world class engineering expertise in luxury offroad 4WDs. Jaguar offered excellence in luxury car engineering and the capacity to build quality products in low volume including aluminium bodied cars using aerospace techniques.

I see that your not biased in any way by your ride description!!



I almost bought a VE SS recently

so why didn't you buy the VE SS, but I presume you bought a Skoda instead (again from your ride description)?

they aren't even direct competitors.

[powerd]

Hello Goggles

Some responses
Small size/Monaro - if it needed to standalone, it's small size would kill it in months. The Monaro(much as I like it) was a minor body revamp of an existing car and does not demonstrate GMH's ability to build a car with a complete platform, drivetrain and body. It was a minor niche model that may never have made a profit, and certainly not generated large revenues. Projects like this will not save Holden
3500 VEs per mth - that's a volume of around 42,000 per year, which is nowhere near enough to fund new platform and drivetrain development on its own and manufacture it a world class quality levels, while breaking even. The head of VW is quoted as saying that to develop and build a world class volume model platform(eg Golf) and sell it profitably requires a minimum of 300,000 units. These are the volumes that major makers need to deliver (and do) to stay profitable. That's why Fiat is buying Chrysler and possibly Opel, to get those sorts of volumes with platform sharing.

Not biased in any way - me?!!! Actually, I have an XJS - brilliant engineering for its time (love that V12) but the reliability of an old LADA. But that was then, and this is now. Check out Jaguar's JD Power rating for quality and reliability, ask people in the industry - you'll find a Jaguar's build and reliability are near Lexus levels since the V8 series of '98. Plus models like the new XK and XF have received much acclaim worldwide, not to mention good sales, and there's more ot come. I've owned a Discovery too, and I understand why Landrover has a great reputation among serious offroaders aronund the world. Thanks to Ford, they can even build them well now!
Didn't buy SS - I liked the SS but after my last one, I just couldn't live with the likely problems. My idea of reliability is never taking the car to the dealer between services and never having anything to get looked at when it does go for service. And no intermittent lights on the dash, or funny gremlins in the central locking etc etc. Check Wheels, Drive and in the industry and you'll find that the VEs still have some endemic problems in this area. That's why most of my cars have been Japanese. It would take too long to describe why the Skoda Octavia RS wagon was a better buy than the Commodore, but here's a summary. I paid $5,000 less than I would have for a demo SS sedan with similar kms ($31,000, 8,000kms) and got sunroof, nav and xenons plus lots more standard gear. It is almost as roomy as the Commodore (much more space efficient). As a Golf GTI in drag, it is hugely better engineered and built than the Commodore and only loses out in 0-100kmh. But with sharp handling, great comfort and 280nm from 1800-5000rpm in a light body, its a hoot to drive. And Skoda builds them better than VW, too, pretty much to Japanse quality levels. Fine with me.

I would like to see Holden survive, but I don't think there is much chance it will if it is not part of a viable GM

cheers
powerd

[llucie]

[QUOTE=powerd;


I would like to see Holden survive, but I don't think there is much chance it will if it is not part of a viable GM

cheers
powerd[/QUOTE] I don't think it needs to be GM , any large Auto manufacturer would be a good parent - I don't own a Holden but have driven the latest models as I have of the standard fare US GM mid size/large cars , the Commodore runs rings around them , our local home grown products (Falcon included) are so far superior than their bread and butter variety's that I'm not surprised that the Yanks are staying away from dealerships in droves .
As you say Holden can't survive on its own selling into just its local market at the volumes mentioned - Time to do something as 90% of new car buyers aren't buying Holden and the population base has changed dramatically in the past 30 years where young people now don't consider a Commodore or Falcon because their parents drove Japanese sourced vehicles and they just follow them - every day I drive through Asian populated suburbs of Brisbane (many of them) and you seldom see someone from an Asian persuasion driving other than Asian sourced vehicles = Holden and GM mean nothing to these people as it's not something they grew up with = some fodder to consider .

[clubbie]

I've owned a Discovery too, and I understand why Landrover has a great reputation among serious offroaders aronund the world. Thanks to Ford, they can even build them well now!

And Skoda builds them better than VW, too, pretty much to Japanse quality levels. Fine with me.



whatever.....you are right (not).

[fatbob]

You seldom see someone from Asia driving .. what ?
I think you are referring to Asians in other countries and not their homeland - where they might need to be seen supporting home.

Seriously sunshine - try going to a place in Asia and looking at what people are driving.

Just like in the West - people buy what they can afford.
Ferk me - there's more VW's, audi's and buicks on the streets on Beijing ( as a %age against other cars ) than I have seen anywhere - anytime.

Most made in factories in China - however if the driver can afford the import - they will.

Now think of China as probably the biggest car buyer in the world nowadays - and tell me they going to buy ... Japanese before German ? I thinks not.

[planetdavo]

Sorry fellas, know a bit more but can't talk.
To add at least something, don't forget how to smile just yet ok. :)

[Helter Skelter]

then we will all have collectors items !

[shakows]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-05-12-gm-shares-sink_N.htm

Now even the Managers are giving up on GM

Its only a matter of time

[mac06]

No one is immune, not even Toyota. They lost $7.7 billion the first quarter which is more than GM's $6 billion loss for the same time period. In the end every manufacturer is affected by the recession, some will shut the doors, some will go through a period of restructuring. GM is too big for the US government to let go down the gurgler. As mentioned before it's not the end of the world if GM does go into chapter 11 bankruptcy, just a chance to restructure and come out a more efficient company.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyotas-loss-adds-company-to-misery?dist=msr_1

[Mikey]

The Monaro(much as I like it) was a minor body revamp of an existing car and does not demonstrate GMH's ability to build a car with a complete platform, drivetrain and body.
Since when wasn’t the Monaro a 2 door version of the family variant??? (and yes, this is a rhetorical question btw)

Maybe it is our fault (the baby boomers) for expecting it but I am now convinced that GEN Y (and I am not talking about another LS series of our beloved V8 here) just don't get it!!! Sorry for wanting an Australian tradition whipped up by Holden in the 60's and followed by Ford and Chrysler (and damn nearly Leyland for that matter) to come back after a torturous 20 year Australian motoring void (that even nearly cost us the V8 in Australia) so that we have something special again!!! The Gen III was made for a car like this and we were lucky to get it period!!!


It was a minor niche model that may never have made a profit, and certainly not generated large revenues. Projects like this will not save Holden
Rubbish!!! This car has given 5-15 year old kids something to love about Holden when it was released so that when they grow up they will want something with a Holden badge on it too. It was an investment for the future as even Holden did not expect to make any money from the last Monaro. The roof dies were even made from wood because they did not expect to make many. I think that they only changed this when it became a Pontiac. (anyone confirm)

Ford are still playing catch up for their sins of the 80's. The Turbo I6 will make up for a lot of lost ground with the next generation though!

[CraigH]

No one is immune, not even Toyota. They lost $7.7 billion the first quarter which is more than GM's $6 billion loss for the same time period. In the end every manufacturer is affected by the recession, some will shut the doors, some will go through a period of restructuring. GM is too big for the US government to let go down the gurgler. As mentioned before it's not the end of the world if GM does go into chapter 11 bankruptcy, just a chance to restructure and come out a more efficient company.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyotas-loss-adds-company-to-misery?dist=msr_1


I think the Toyota loss is in on a different level to GM.

Ignore the absolute dollars and look behind and you see both hurting from a massive drop in sales but GM is crippled by decades of bad decision and inaction that has all come home !!!!

A great read is "The Death of Detroit" that documented the US car companies throughout the decades and predicts an outcome if they did not learn from the past. The authors are on the money with the possible outcomes.

[pagey]

Sorry fellas, know a bit more but can't talk.
To add at least something, don't forget how to smile just yet ok. :)

Me too.. but i am sworn to secrecy also. :goodjob:

[Carby650]

Sorry fellas, know a bit more but can't talk.
To add at least something, don't forget how to smile just yet ok. :)

I asume by your comments that it will be at least something possitive for Holden?

cheers
Carby650

[Grass]

if GM US goes bankrupt. it wont really affect GMH. Holden have their finger in a lot of pies overseas, particularly the small car market in korea and the like.

[insanity4life]

yeh i dont think it would effect gmh completely as to the point where GMH is no more, gm is gm, it'll always be around.

[Excellent]

Me too.. but i am sworn to secrecy also. :goodjob:

Come on guys, enough of this Camaro in Aus, nonsense!

:rofl:

[Kuzman89]

If GM goes bankrupt I imagine it will lose massive market share to ford in America. Even if they do restructure I don't see it being any different.

Just wander how it will effect Holden over here? I assume if GM looses market share, that = less money spent on technology etc which means Holden is going to loose out on abit to aus ford as well.

[Ausmartin1]

:rofl:Ford has technology ? :spew:
Oh please ........
& No Quality.

The only competition is the Japanese and European Ford if you have to include Ford. The stuff Ford Australia produces here you couldn't give away to the Arabs for export let alone sell it to them!
:rofl:

[planetdavo]

I asume by your comments that it will be at least something possitive for Holden?
cheers
Carby650
Don't pull off your Holden badges just yet....:)

[Carby650]

Don't pull off your Holden badges just yet....:)

That will never happen regardless of what occurs with Holden. That lion badge will never be replaced.:bow:

Now back to what you where saying... Any hints.. :stick:

cheers
Carby650

[planetdavo]

GM is MUCH bigger than Holden remember. We might all like to think they are closure proof, but... :teach:
Don't pull off your GM badges just yet either. :)

[Nitronic12]

How much is Holden worth?

[shakows]

I just cant see how the 40% proposed ownership of GM by the UAW is anything but bad news for Holden

[ti0350]

Just read that GM wants to increase the level of production of vehicles bound for the U.S. market to China, Mexico, South Korea and Japan.
While shrinking production in Canada, Australia and European countries by about 130,000 vehicles.

[BlownLS7]

i can tell you that the G8 is finished, it is now on a wind down, and maybe only 14 weeks before suppliers have last deliveries,

cheers paul

[shakows]

Its not "If" any more its June 1

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/18/general-motors-takes-cue-from-chrysler-registers-gmrestructurin/

They have gone and registered gmrestructuring.com

[VW Golf R32]

Unfortunately Ch11 is odds on to happen in two weeks time.

[VW Golf R32]

We were discussing this situation today and one concerning thought emerged. GM going into bankruptcy protection will not have a direct affect upon Holden. However many of the components used in the Alloytech engine are supplied by the same suppliers who send parts to GM's St, Catherine's plant. If GM were to cease production during Ch11 (like Chrysler recently have) and one of the common component suppliers were to collapse, this would affect Holden's V6 engine production at Pt. Melbourne. This could cause Holden's production to stop until the component in question is sourced from another supplier.

Pure speculation at this point in time but definately a possible scenario.

[djst]

The way things are shaping up,it was an independant General Motors.
It will soon be GM=Government Motors, compliments of the American taxpayer,whether they like it or not.

[shakows]

With a lot of UAW Motor in there as welll

[clubbie]

With a lot of UAW Motor in there as welll

Nope that plan was rejected by the Big O hence why GM will be going to bankruptcy.

[cards400]

fiat is looking to buy the europen share of gm (opal,vaxhall) and another mob called magna (canadian/russian?).

[banarcus]

Holden needs $450 million off its parent for the new little car and of course the $150 million off the Australian Government, this is correct? Now would the US taxpayer and the other major shareholder the UAW, approve of sending over their hard earnt to prop up foreign manufacturing operation? Little of that $450 million would come from GMH given that they haven't made a profit for a while so with GM broke and needing to bankrupt themselves, this would have to ring alarm bells for GMH, surely?

[Fnomna]

If GM wants to keep Holden then they will need to give it the resources it requires to (hopefully) give good returns.
No investment in Holden would see it die - might as well sell it off instead then...

[shakows]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/business/27auto.html?hpw

The Treasury plans to create a new version of G.M. with its most attractive assets, like Chevrolet, Cadillac and some of its manufacturing operations. The rest of G.M. would be sold or liquidated.

Looks like a lot of people are going to get trampled on

Very concerning for Holden

[Evman]

Here's hoping Holden is an attractive asset :confused:

[Tre-Cool]

anyone else watch foreign correspondant on ABC last night, they had a good report on Detroit (Motown) from the looks of it the city is pretty quite almost like a ghost town.

[Excellent]

Holden needs $450 million off its parent for the new little car and of course the $150 million off the Australian Government, this is correct? Now would the US taxpayer and the other major shareholder the UAW, approve of sending over their hard earnt to prop up foreign manufacturing operation? Little of that $450 million would come from GMH given that they haven't made a profit for a while so with GM broke and needing to bankrupt themselves, this would have to ring alarm bells for GMH, surely?

I read in the latest Wheels mag that Holden are self sustaining. As the Holden CEO stated, "There is no money coming across to Holden from US Treasury"

[COSMOS]

anyone else watch foreign correspondant on ABC last night, they had a good report on Detroit (Motown) from the looks of it the city is pretty quite almost like a ghost town.

yep - I did.

The last time I was in Detroit was in 2006 at GM HQ and the Auburn Hills R&D centre featured on the story.

Even then the city was all but abandoned - you could see maybe 4 city blocks of life and the rest was just empty. Freakish.

What blew me away was that it is NOW ranked 11th in US cities. Says a lot about the other couple of hundred urban centres that rank 12th - last !

[Martin_D]

I read in the latest Wheels mag that Holden are self sustaining. As the Holden CEO stated, "There is no money coming across to Holden from US Treasury"

Course not, its coming from K Rudd via us instead :lol:

[planetdavo]

Holden will be ok. :)

[shakows]

You mean China Holden, GM is gone, Even if its comes out the other side, in any decent shape it will be 70% government owned and the rest the Union

[Evman]

Seems like this is it for the failed giant

Failed bond deal drives GM within days of bankruptcy (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63169&vf=2)

[KCB50L]

Seems like this is it for the failed giant

Failed bond deal drives GM within days of bankruptcy (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63169&vf=2)

You know, chapter 11 isn't as bad as it can get, it just means it's a court assisted restructure, the thing I don't like is, they will come out of chapter 11 as a government and union operation. Christ knows what the quality of there cars will be like when that happens.

[paul05]

You know, chapter 11 isn't as bad as it can get, it just means it's a court assisted restructure, the thing I don't like is, they will come out of chapter 11 as a government and union operation. Christ knows what the quality of there cars will be like when that happens.

Quality of the gm cars ? over priced pieces of metal , and that goes for our gm product as well . I feel very sorry for the average worker but the top blokes out of this will walk away with there top cat payouts while the man in the factory looses everything. Quality !!! they should be looking at the japs for that , at least there some what worth what you buy these days.

[Ellistwo]

Seems like this is it for the failed giant

Failed bond deal drives GM within days of bankruptcy (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63169&vf=2)

I wouldn't take anything the press is saying as gospel. The bond holders have agreed on a plan and that plan was filed on Thursday to the securities commission.

They will take 10% of the new GM with an option of a further 15%, plus get to pickover the old GM when it goes into chapter 11 protection.

[Ausmartin1]

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f67/holden-could-sold-gm-teeters-79900/

Well the ONLY two things going for GM these days are Holden and Opel.
If they sell off Holden as it would be easy to sell as it's a total integrated entitiy that can not only produce a car, but design it.
The can kiss all future purchases from me goodbye.

I hope this is only a rumor, but if it's for real then we can blame the US government and it UAW Union "Dumb & Dumber" for having there heads up there own A$$ no wonder they can't see daylight !
Opels toast, so it better not happen to the Holden.
Were paying the the price of Bush and also GM's past CEO Wagoner not moving fast enough .... it's all review mirror stuff now.
:soap:

[ti0350]

Well GM has sold part of Opel looking at the deal though i looks like GM is still the joint majority part owner though.. Got this from the Detroit News..
GM also reached an agreement Friday to sell most of its German carmaker Adam Opel to a group led by Canadian auto supplier Magna International Inc. The German government will provide $2.1 billion in financing to support the sale.
As GM's outlook worsened, the German government moved to secure a future for Opel, one of GM's first overseas acquisitions.
Magna, GM's preferred bidder for Opel, submitted a bid jointly with Russia's Sberbank Rossii valued at 700 million euros, or about $1 billion, last week. Under the terms, GM would retain a 35 percent stake in the German carmaker it acquired in 1929. Sberbank would have 35 percent, Magna 20 percent and Opel employees 10 percent.
The deal also brings in the Russian automaker GAZ, controlled by Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska. GM recently discussed possible production ventures with GAZ.
In Germany, Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck said a plan to have Magna lead a rescue of Opel had been approved. The German federal government and several state governments will provide a $2.1 billion bridge loan. "A solution has been found to keep Opel running," he said, according to the Associated Press.

[SS Enforcer]

Why arn't these companies allowed to fail if they arn't profitable. Someone else will build cars that people will buy and make a profit doing it.

cheers

[Red Beard]

Why arn't these companies allowed to fail if they arn't profitable. Someone else will build cars that people will buy and make a profit doing it.

cheers

I can see your logic, and it's definitely valid for smaller businesses, why put good money after bad, but if these large companies fail, consider the trickle down to all their suppliers, and the the companies that supply the suppliers and so on. The list goes on all the way down to the smallest businesses. The impact here would be bad enough, but in the US it would be massive. Their economy would be crushed, and we would all end up driving econoboxes from asia, and you can bet they wouldn't be supplying Holden with V8s.

[Martin_D]

Their economy would be crushed, and we would all end up driving econoboxes from asia.....

I take it you havent heard of the Daewoo Lacetti/Holden Cruze then.... :1peek:

[planetdavo]

I take it you havent heard of the Daewoo Lacetti/Holden Cruze then....
Lets not forget those "sexy" Nisan Tiida's either...:1peek:

[KPWISHN]

Get a Tesla. :)

[Martin_D]

and take plenty of extension cords.....however Holden is in safe hands, top forum poster says so :bow: :lol: :lol:

[planetdavo]

and take plenty of extension cords.....however Holden is in safe hands, top forum poster says so
Forums top poster clearly knows a little bit more than forums top opinion based rambler on this topic. :)

[Martin_D]

Forums top poster clearly knows a little bit more than forums top opinion based rambler on this topic. :)

Ouch Davo that hurts! However there is a chance you may have overheard a conference call on the state of GMH when delivering the bosses 'foot long, italian herb and cheese sweet chicken teriyaki, hold the jalapenos' :cool:

So when does your Daewoo Lacetti Cruze thingy drive car come to replace the Epica 'street racer'? :bow:

[planetdavo]

You do amuse me Tuna. When you run out of fact to support your ramblings, you resort to blatant fishing to keep an argument going.
:goodjob:

[Martin_D]

Dude I too was actually entertained by the soliloquy that were 'the musings of Planetdavo and GMHs State of the nation'. Then a trusted forum member has just informed me you are in fact Barina Girl... :eek:

Now I am indeed stuck for words, and you win :bow:

[Sonnymad]

Dude I too was actually entertained by the soliloquy that were 'the musings of Planetdavo and GMHs State of the nation'. Then a trusted forum member has just informed me you are in fact Barina Girl... :eek:

Now I am indeed stuck for words, and you win :bow:

Common martin wheres the love :love:after all planetdavo is GMH Australia:lol:

[planetdavo]

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

:)

[Excellent]

Why arn't these companies allowed to fail if they arn't profitable. Someone else will build cars that people will buy and make a profit doing it.

cheers

This article (http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/643137) might give some perspective to your question..............


.. out of national pride, France, Germany, Japan, China, Russia and others routinely subsidize profit-challenged local automakers.

[Martin_D]

About 3pm this afternoon...thats the hot inside tip for the GM Bankruptcy announcement. Lets see :eek:

[KPWISHN]

About 3pm this afternoon...thats the hot inside tip for the GM Bankruptcy announcement. Lets see :eek:

Davo tipped you off hey. :diddy:

[Martin_D]

Nah not Davo, he is too busy studying the takeaway lunch menu for his new bosses.....its either Won Ton Noodle or Beef Vindaloo at this stage :lol:

[GODSMACK]

Nah not Davo, he is too busy studying the takeaway lunch menu for his new bosses.....its either Won Ton Noodle or Beef Vindaloo at this stage :lol:

Jealous Tuna, coz he has a company car and the boss knows him by name???? :rofl: :jester:

[Martin_D]

Got me again.....bastards :)

[shakows]

3pm came and went

Closer to Midnight I think

[planetdavo]

Nah not Davo, he is too busy studying the takeaway lunch menu for his new bosses.....its either Won Ton Noodle or Beef Vindaloo at this stage :lol:
We'll still be enjoying fries around the big table fella. :)

[Martin_D]

We'll still be enjoying fries around the big table fella. :)

As long as Kevin 07 keeps feeding them to you, course you will :)

[planetdavo]

Sorry I took so long to reply tonight Mr T. That bloody conference call with President Obama and Mr Reuss took forever! :lmao:

[Martin_D]

So whats the outcome HSV Epica? :eek: :hide:

[LSavvy]

Heard on the radio an announcment will be made at 1am by Obama and at 2am by GM and by Holden at 9am.



You do amuse me Tuna. When you run out of fact to support your ramblings, you resort to blatant fishing to keep an argument going.
:goodjob:

So he's using your tactics, no need to get upset:bawl:

[planetdavo]

So whats the outcome HSV Epica? :eek: :hide:
Only if the fully sik BOV and 22 inch chromies are approved by head office...:lmao:

[Martin_D]

The very sad part for Holden is that Elizabeth may well become a sweat shop for the assembly of imported Daewoos in knocked down form. Thats the Rudd vision as evidenced by the funding to go ahead with the Cruze badged Korean engineered and designed Daewoo Lacetti :(

Today the Advertiser (SA paper) highlighted that the Holden engineers and design staff from the VE program will be the first to get the chop. Not good news for what are a talented gang :)

[Martin_D]

.......................

[slipper]

It is all over according to the Detroit News front page...
http://www.detnews.com

[planetdavo]

Welcome to reality in a global industry. Holden, as the nominated majority shareholder in GM-DAT, and centre of engineering excellence in the Oceania region, have for a fair while now embedded numerous skilled engineers in Korea for future global product development.

[Martin_D]

Just because its global, and GMH chooses to make Daewoos with Holden badges, doesn't mean anyone here has to like it :teach:

[planetdavo]

Cruze is a GM-DAT/Opel product with heavy Holden input, rather than a re-hashed (former) Daewoo product. The future is arriving.
For someone with a history in motoring journalism, you seem to be a bit short on facts. Keep baiting Mr Tuna. It keeps the often mundane topics on here remotely interesting. :)

[VX2VESS]

same as china..

say you moved audi factory to china and made it the same way it would be but cheaper, but buy a chinese design and made its crap. its not where its made it how. expensive labour doesn't make a better car its the rest of it.

these guys work just as hard for less. same as Japan were, went from cheap & nasty to the best quality. no one would buy Japanese in the 50's and 60's

Hyundai is probably better quality than holden and ford already...I30 is a good package for a little car. Taiwan is the new japan for low price quality, another eg Samsung, high end electronics esp lcd, on par with sony if not better. could say they are copying the technology, but so did japan, copy and improve on it same as they did.

move the Vette production to Taiwan, a cheap better made Vette mmmm that would be nice

[VW Golf R32]

It is all over according to the Detroit News front page...
http://www.detnews.com

:bawl: .

[fatbob]

Actually on cars made in cheaper labor areas such as China or wherever - I'd say - the design, the processes and all that stuff used to make the car, the tolerances and other stuff you get with a good car design and factory techniques - gives you a better car.
So if you bought a VW made in China, it would be better than a generic china brand made in China
- but it wouldn't be as good as a VW made in Germany.

[ti0350]

It seems Holden is safe for now there's media release on the Holden website..
I small exert
How is Holden affected by this filing?
Holden is not directly included in or impacted by the US court proceedings.

Does this mean Holden is going out of business?
No. None of GM’s operations outside of the US are included in the US court filings or court-supervised process, and these filings have no direct impact on GM’s plans and operations outside the US.

But doesn’t bankruptcy mean the end of a company?
Chapter 11 in the US is not like Australian law. It is a highly structured, court-controlled process that allows companies to continue trading while they reinvent their operations. Unlike the systems of many other countries, the US chapter 11 process is focussed on the preservation and reinvention of a company’s business. It does not mean ceasing to trade.

What happens to Holden once New GM emerges from chapter 11?
Holden will be an important part of the New GM.We will maintain our focus on product programs and activities.That means technology improvements to our best-selling Commodore range, launching the all-new Holden Cruze and the introduction of our locally-built fuel efficient, four-cylinder small car next year.

What happens to Holden’s operations during GM’s chapter 11 process?
Holden continues to run full operations at Elizabeth and Port Melbourne, producing cars for our 300-strong independent dealer network. We don’t anticipate this US action will have any direct impact on our local workforce, dealers or Holden suppliers.

Full version here..

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=21&docid=54638

[shakows]

Obviously the Holden PR and whoever post the info on the front page wasnt aware of

http://business.watoday.com.au/business/holdens-future-is-in-obamas-hands-after-gm-nationalisation-20090601-bsyj.html

Holden, however, is merely a bit player - and a loss-making one at that - on a heavily indebted global stage awash in red ink. .... Holden produced just 119,000 cars last year, making it about the same size as Saab. One-third of that tally, however, was a Pontiac model shipped to the US - a line General Motors since has discontinued and, with it, any residual interest in an Australian automobile manufacturer.

[LargeRice]

The future is arriving.

Yes and the company is bankrupt.... lets not foget that 'minor' detail.

Reading some of the info out there, going bankrupt is the new 'successful' :confused:

[SCiFiRE]

Obviously the Holden PR and whoever post the info on the front page wasnt aware of

http://business.watoday.com.au/business/holdens-future-is-in-obamas-hands-after-gm-nationalisation-20090601-bsyj.html

Holden, however, is merely a bit player - and a loss-making one at that - on a heavily indebted global stage awash in red ink. .... Holden produced just 119,000 cars last year, making it about the same size as Saab. One-third of that tally, however, was a Pontiac model shipped to the US - a line General Motors since has discontinued and, with it, any residual interest in an Australian automobile manufacturer.

I think its more the other way around mate. I think GM have a much better idea of where Holden is going than a journo from WA times. I notice the article is from yesterday, before the bankruptcy was even official. Its been stated in press releases this very morning, right from the horses mouth, that Holden WILL be a part of the 'New GM'... I realise its in GM/Holdens interests to put a positive spin on things, But they're the ones that know whats going on, and anything you hear from people outside ground-zero is just speculation.

[Martin_D]

Of course Holden will be part of the new GM. As long as the Aussie taxpayers cover all the bills and it costs GM not a dime to run why would it be any different? :eek:

Certainly its a strategy that propped Mitsubishi up for a decade. Holden does not need to make a profit, or even a car, to survive, it just needs to keep on the right side of the government/media :)

[Excellent]

What happens to Holden’s operations during GM’s chapter 11 process?
Holden continues to run full operations at Elizabeth and Port Melbourne, producing cars for our 300-strong independent dealer network. We don’t anticipate this US action will have any direct impact on our local workforce, dealers or Holden suppliers.[/I]


So how do Holden get their powertrains?

[bwhinnen]

So how do Holden get their powertrains?

Same way as previously...

And it's this that is scarier for GM...

The 31-Year-Old in Charge of Dismantling G.M. (http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/107136/The-31-Year-Old-in-Charge-of-Dismantling-G.M.?mod=family-autos)

[VX2VESS]

If GM was liquidated it would have made the world economy collapse further. It shows that it was possible to make a deal with the gov't to avoid the US then world really collapsing. They also helped make the deal for Chrysler for the same reasons.

Make GM smaller so it can't take out the whole economy again is the plan...

[Evman]

And it's this that is scarier for GM...


The average ages of NASA scientists when Armstrong stepped onto the moon for the first time was 23. Age doesn't matter, it's knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge. We're yet to see how he fares but making judgments based on his age isn't a very good crystal ball.

[bwhinnen]

The average ages of NASA scientists when Armstrong stepped onto the moon for the first time was 23. Age doesn't matter, it's knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge. We're yet to see how he fares but making judgments based on his age isn't a very good crystal ball.

What frightens me is not that he is 31, but that he has no formal economics or business training. Reading the article reminds me of someone learning how to do the job on the job at the expense of the customer, rather than having the grounding behind them. It is scary to see this in something with such wide ramifications.

It would be like me doing it. I'm in IT, very good at what I do, even when his age, but those are some very big shoes to fill and it would scare the shit out of me and I'd not know where to start. I know it is done in the Government all the time, it still doesn't make it any less scary, specially when that knowledge isn't there to begin with, even if the know how to apply it is...

[LargeRice]

Whether or not he knows everything about the industry is irrelevant as it is not like he is the only person involved.

From the article it sounds like he is a smart guy who is particular about numbers. The company is kaput. It is now a numbers game, not a game of who can manage a production line. Numbers are universal across all of life, if you understand what they are saying there is nothing scary about it.

I frequently discuss the performance of the company my wife works for purely on a numbers focus. I could never comment on the sales side but i can see holes all through the numbers and make comments in a couple of minutes on performance and strategy. It's very easy for people who can do it naturally.

[bwhinnen]

Whether or not he knows everything about the industry is irrelevant as it is not like he is the only person involved.

From the article it sounds like he is a smart guy who is particular about numbers. The company is kaput. It is now a numbers game, not a game of who can manage a production line. Numbers are universal across all of life, if you understand what they are saying there is nothing scary about it.

I frequently discuss the performance of the company my wife works for purely on a numbers focus. I could never comment on the sales side but i can see holes all through the numbers and make comments in a couple of minutes on performance and strategy. It's very easy for people who can do it naturally.

I get where you are coming from, I guess it is much like anything then, somethings come naturally to some people.

Guess I'm just digging myself out of a hole for jumping in on something I didn't quite get then... A basic fear of something I don't quite understand myself. (edit: does that even make sense?)

[mcmurray]

Same way as previously...



Yes but what if GM ceases production? This may well happen, in fact it's probable.

4 cyl VE anyone?

[Evman]

Yes but what if GM ceases production? This may well happen, in fact it's probable.

4 cyl VE anyone?

They wont. The whole point of this Chapter 11 deal is the ability to continue production whilst they get their shit sorted. The government isn't going to be putting up all this money only to let them stop producing.

[mcmurray]

They wont. The whole point of this Chapter 11 deal is the ability to continue production whilst they get their shit sorted. The government isn't going to be putting up all this money only to let them stop producing.

No one is interested in V8's these days. GM will be focusing more on 'economic' vehicles.

Getting their 'shit sorted' means trimming the fat. If GM USA has no need for the LS engines, they most certainly will not continue production just to satisfy Holden's requirements.

[VX2VESS]

No one is interested in V8's these days. GM will be focusing more on 'economic' vehicles.

Getting their 'shit sorted' means trimming the fat. If GM USA has no need for the LS engines, they most certainly will not continue production just to satisfy Holden's requirements.

holden can produce them here

[Evman]

No one is interested in V8's these days. GM will be focusing more on 'economic' vehicles.

Getting their 'shit sorted' means trimming the fat. If GM USA has no need for the LS engines, they most certainly will not continue production just to satisfy Holden's requirements.

So you're saying that GM is going to stop producing their trucks, utes and performance cars and move exclusively to fuel economic small cars? Not going to happen champ. Of course people are still interested in V8's. America has the V8 culture just like Australia. The LSx series engines have been GM's best selling V8's ever, they're not in the fat, they're one of the meaty parts of GM.

[LargeRice]

It's easy for Obama to say it will be a 'new GM' but how much more money will that take in addition to what they have pledged?

I have no doubt they could trim fat and get the company running lean again but for the company to turn around and produce cars of a completely different nature and be self sustaining in a short period of time is another thing.

What makes the Govt so convinced GM can do this? The company failed to do that so far in the interest of shareholders.

What are the odds in 3yrs time the company winds up in exactly the same position that we see today? Is this possibly more a stall tactic by the US Govt rather than a solution? They can't deal with the collapse today however in 3yrs time, if the global growth predictions come true (fat chance) they can deal with the collapse then. :1peek:

[VX2VESS]

It's easy for Obama to say it will be a 'new GM' but how much more money will that take in addition to what they have pledged?

I have no doubt they could trim fat and get the company running lean again but for the company to turn around and produce cars of a completely different nature and be self sustaining in a short period of time is another thing.

What makes the Govt so convinced GM can do this? The company failed to do that so far in the interest of shareholders.

What are the odds in 3yrs time the company winds up in exactly the same position that we see today? Is this possibly more a stall tactic by the US Govt rather than a solution? They can't deal with the collapse today however in 3yrs time, if the global growth predictions come true (fat chance) they can deal with the collapse then. :1peek:

i think so, but they might be able to save it

later on the company won't be as big broken up, and the economy might be better able to handle it better later on rather than now

[Pav023]

"Holden has not made a profit in Australia since 2004, and will receive $149 million from the federal government and $30 million from the South Australian government to fund a second car manufacturing line in Adelaide's northern suburbs." (Bigpond News) So much for record sales, prob floging them under cost just to get bragging rights.

That VE commordore must be a great car, lol. So much for the billion dollar investment. Lucky the gov steped in and gave them funding for the small cruze. If it wasnt for that they would of been on the chopping block like opel. Anyway dont they have a car called the cruze already?? Good to see rudd is helping out, Holden or not. I wonder if the anti rudd guys here would be happy. lol.

[clubbie]

"Holden has not made a profit in Australia since 2004, and will receive $149 million from the federal government and $30 million from the South Australian government to fund a second car manufacturing line in Adelaide's northern suburbs." (Bigpond News) So much for record sales, prob floging them under cost just to get bragging rights.

That VE commordore must be a great car, lol. So much for the billion dollar investment. Lucky the gov steped in and gave them funding for the small cruze. If it wasnt for that they would of been on the chopping block like opel. Anyway dont they have a car called the cruze already?? Good to see rudd is helping out, Holden or not. I wonder if the anti rudd guys here would be happy. lol.

Quite right you are. Holden is a basket case. Close them down I say. I mean how could a car company that has paid back over a billion dollars for R&D in the last four years be considered an asset to Australian manufacturing.:goodjob:

[Pav023]

good r & d investment, yeh 10 years behind the euro cars and even some jap cars. No wonder the domestic industry is stuffed and everyones buying imports.

[fabian]

Like it or not, fact is less than 10% of companies that file for bankruptcy protection survive and the company model is a vast difference from the company that went broke in the first place.

My thoughts are that GM will make it through this but what will the new GM be who knows, time will tell.

Kind Regards

[Excellent]

Like it or not, fact is less than 10% of companies that file for bankruptcy protection survive and the company model is a vast difference from the company that went broke in the first place.

My thoughts are that GM will make it through this but what will the new GM be who knows, time will tell.

Kind Regards

The major US airline carriers, Kmart, Target etc... all went BK and surviving today.

What you should also mention is that big automakers very rarely close their doors.

[Evman]

good r & d investment, yeh 10 years behind the euro cars and even some jap cars. No wonder the domestic industry is stuffed and everyones buying imports.

Lol... You mean the Euro cars that car 3 times as expensive and the jap cars that are built for a fraction of the cost? What the hell was Holden thinking? :goodjob:

[fabian]

The major US airline carriers, Kmart, Target etc... all went BK and surviving today.

What you should also mention is that big automakers very rarely close their doors.

I will mention that none of the companies you quote owed in excess of 250 Billion dollars let alone 30 Billion, a slight difference IMO

As I said my thoughts are GM will get through this.

[Pav023]

Lol... You mean the Euro cars that car 3 times as expensive and the jap cars that are built for a fraction of the cost? What the hell was Holden thinking? :goodjob:

They cost three times in australia, if it wasnt for that we all be driving them. Point is to protect the industry, plus they play the luxury image, where you go to germany and its an ordinary workhorse.

Mercedes-Benz supplied by Bosch was the first to introduce ESC in 1995
Mercedes-Benz introduced the first completely electronic 4-wheel multi-channel ABS system in trucks and the Mercedes-Benz S-Class in 1978

Yep we sure do have good R&D, it just takes them ten years to implement them into our cars.

[LargeRice]

The major US airline carriers, Kmart, Target etc... all went BK and surviving today.

Your example are service and retail industry which is completely different. Those companies never developed product.

We are talking about GM, a developer of products. Not only do they need to trim down but they need to change their product line up and then Market their 'new image' to convince people they build cars that people want.

GM are in for an incredibly hard battle to turn things around. Mind you the US Govt seems perfectly happy to continue spending with no plans to ever pay back so why not give them money.....

[ti0350]

looks like GM may have off loaded Hummer..

Robert Snell and David Shepardson / The Detroit News
General Motors Corp., a day after filing Chapter 11 bankruptcy, has a tentative deal to sell its Hummer brand to Chinese-based Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Co., Ltd., the automaker confirmed Tuesday.
GM did not reveal the sale price -- though in a bankruptcy filing, GM said the brand is worth $500 million or less. The company said the deal, which includes the brand's senior management and operational team, could close by the end of the third quarter and would protect more than 3,000 manufacturing, engineering and dealership jobs across the country.
Tengzhong also is expected to sign a long-term contract for assembly and a material supply agreement with GM.
Privately owned Tengzhong, which is based in the Chinese province of Sichuan, is a leading domestic manufacturer of road, construction and equipment for the energy industry.
"We will be investing in the HUMMER brand and its research and development capabilities, which will allow HUMMER to better meet demand for new products such as more fuel-efficient vehicles in the U.S.," Tengzhong CEO Yang Yi said in a prepared statement.
The Hummer headquarters and operations will remain in the U.S., and executives plan to expand the dealer network globally --including new and underserved Chinese markets.
"With Tengzhong's investment and strong support, we will be able to make our visions a reality," Hummer CEO James Taylor said in a prepared statement.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says the Obama administration, with its 60 percent ownership stake, won't stop GM from outsourcing production to China.
"Business decisions are going to be made by General Motors," he said.
GM will continue to provide vehicles on a contract basis for a while, meaning workers at GM's Shreveport Assembly plant would keep assembling the H3 and H3T at least through next year.
Shedding Hummer is part of GM's overall restructuring plan, which also involves selling or phasing out the Saturn, Saab and Pontiac brands.
GM acquired the brawny Hummer brand in 1999 from AM General Corp.

[Excellent]

I will mention that none of the companies you quote owed in excess of 250 Billion dollars let alone 30 Billion, a slight difference IMO

As I said my thoughts are GM will get through this.

What's the current BK situation got to do with how much money is owing?

When the money runs out, it runs out!

As I said, major automakers rarely fold.


Your example are service and retail industry which is completely different. Those companies never developed product.

We are talking about GM, a developer of products. Not only do they need to trim down but they need to change their product line up and then Market their 'new image' to convince people they build cars that people want.

GM are in for an incredibly hard battle to turn things around. Mind you the US Govt seems perfectly happy to continue spending with no plans to ever pay back so why not give them money.....

And you seem to know that for sure.

It's obvious the US government sees GM as a more vital company than any of the retail stores.

[LargeRice]

It's obvious the US government sees GM as a more vital company than any of the retail stores.

I don't blame the US for not letting GM die. It employs countless people which in turn supports a massive network of other local businesses. The flow on effect if GM collapsed would be catastrophic. The Govt is still licking wounds from Detroit.

Retailers come and go. If one falls the others will pick up the slack and employ more people as they grow. Most retail products are imported anyway so it's less of a concern.

[Evman]

They cost three times in australia, if it wasnt for that we all be driving them. Point is to protect the industry, plus they play the luxury image, where you go to germany and its an ordinary workhorse.

You're right on one thing, they're only twice the price in the UK. And are you loopy or what? Ordinary workhorse? Have you ever been to the UK or Europe? The ordinary workhorse's are little buzz boxes. BMW's and Merc's are certainly not parked in every driveway mate, I think you should take a reality pill.

[BlownLS7]

Letter from my dealer

Dear Eager’s Customer,
I would like to take this opportunity to state that Eager’s Holden continues normal operations after General Motors announced that it has taken court action in the US to launch a competitive New GM.
I wanted to highlight these points because there has been a lot of media coverage surrounding GM's situation in the US.
Holden is not directly impacted by what is occurring in the US. Our future is very much in our own hands in Australia.
GM has entered a process known as chapter 11, which allows companies to use a court process to deal with the financial challenges that have built up over time, whilst continuing to trade. This is strictly a US-based decision and Holden is not included in the filing.
Other important points to note about the chapter 11 process are:

It is not a liquidation procedure
It does not mean a company goes out of business
It is not comparable to any procedure in Australia
It does not usually displace management - management can continue to run the business Eager’s Holden has a very bright future and we continue to sell cars, as future product plans remain firmly on track and there are no changes to our warranty arrangements.
Eager’s Holden is committed to ensuring that customers continue to receive excellent service and warranty coverage.
I would like to thank you for your continued support, as Holden prepare to bring more products to market that maintain Holden's position as the smart choice for Australian motorists.

Marc Caton
Dealer Principal - Eager’s Holden