restricting oil line for turbos

[Tre-Cool]

question for the turbo guru's, basically just want to confirm my own understanding.

basically my problem is after installing a 2nd hand gen-tt kit i was having oil coming out the charge pipes to the intercooler and the actual inlet side of the turbo (where it sucks air).

these were the gtdw ones, so thinking the turbos were stuffed i baught some new garrett 2871rs turbo's.

As it turns out the new turbo's also have oil coming out the intake of the turbo's (though not as bas as the previous ones).

After doing some reading last night, it seems quite a few people and even garret themselves recommend running restrictors on the oil feed line to stop this from happening.

so.. armed with this info rang the company i got the turbos from and they say the the garret BB series turbos have their own restrictors(in the bearing housing) so i dont need to restrict the line. i told them i have 30psi of oil pressure at idle (not thinking about the actual flow, pressure being a measurement of resitricton afterall)

So is it worth putting a restrictor in the line to stop the oil from pissing out and ****ing $3600 turbo's!:vpo:

I know the scavenge pump is working because it's pumping oil to the rocker covers, but to me it seems like ALOT of oil for lubricating 2 small turbo's.

Thoughts, idea's?

[UD_LOSE]

When i brought my T51r turbo kit from HKS (not for my ls1:)) it had a 0.9mm restrictor (HKS turbo's use Garrett cores) since then I have made 1mm restrictors for all of my turbos over the years and never had a problem, even now when I remove my oil drains and start the car massive amounts of oil still flow through the turbos

Here is some info from the Garrett website, they also suggest a 1mm/0.040" restrictor when maximum oil pressure exceeds 45psi

Does my turbo require an oil restrictor?
Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing.

Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo.

The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.

Hope this helps :)

[Tre-Cool]

yeah, i read that on garrett's website myself, thats why i feel that i NEED a restrictor despite what turbotech say.

Im going to go out and start the car with the oil return lines off and measure how much oil comes out.

[VYSLED]

I had similar problems with over oiling especially with Mobil 1 5w-50 being very light it would also leak past the exhaust seal. A 1mm restrictor has solved the problem. Turbo recently was sent back to Billet Turbo chargers for an exhaust housing change and was given a bill of good health. Thumbs up to ye restrictor

[jai]

Now you've got me worried ya bastard! :P

JK

[mce]

Dave install resrictors , .9 will do the trick you can buy them from gogear
also make shure your aircleaners are clean as any restriction on the intake side will pull oil through the seals

[Tre-Cool]

okay, after start up. it takes about 5 seconds and then the oil is flowing.

once the oil starts it's a solid stream. not a big one, probably about 2mm in diameter dropping straight out the bottom of the turbo.

i'm going to get some 75 degree angle fittings for the oil return lines tomorrow as the RHS core of turbo charger is on about a 15 degree angle or less (i know max is 15 for the oil return), this when the return line is on it makes the return line higher then the bottom of the turbo.

the LHS one is fine, but i'll get two anyway.


Dave install resrictors , .9 will do the trick you can buy them from gogear
also make shure your aircleaners are clean as any restriction on the intake side will pull oil through the seals
i have no filters on the turbos at all. (only while it's on the hoist though.)

For the restrictor, i only want to install 1. i.e at the fitting on the engine. this would suffice for the 2 turbo's yeah? the fitting i have on their at the moment is just your standard 1/4 bsp type fitting with the -4 fitting for the hose.

[mce]

if my memory serves me correct the last time i did a flow test on a ve at idle it flowed about three times more oil than required for the turbos , not a major problem with high mount turbos with a 19mm drain to the sump

For the restrictor, i only want to install 1. i.e at the fitting on the engine. this would suffice for the 2 turbo's yeah? the fitting i have on their at the moment is just your standard 1/4 bsp type fitting with the -4 fitting for the hose.[/QUOTE]

fit restrictors at the turbos , you can get them to fit inside the -4 fitting so they dont need anymore room

[Tre-Cool]

i get what your saying now. i was thinking replacement "fitting" your talking about a small restrictor that fits over the turbo fitting.

[mce]

yes thats corect , there only about 3mm in diameter , if you cant find any i think i have some at work or i can make you a pair

[YIIR8]

At least it won't rust :1peek:

[Tre-Cool]

At least it won't rust :1peek:
lol, smart ass.

so glad im going a blower on my car.

[boyley]

if my memory serves me correct the last time i did a flow test on a ve at idle it flowed about three times more oil than required for the turbos , not a major problem with high mount turbos with a 19mm drain to the sump

For the restrictor, i only want to install 1. i.e at the fitting on the engine. this would suffice for the 2 turbo's yeah? the fitting i have on their at the moment is just your standard 1/4 bsp type fitting with the -4 fitting for the hose.

fit restrictors at the turbos , you can get them to fit inside the -4 fitting so they dont need anymore room

I like your comment on turbo location because this would have an effect on oil pressure to turbo depending on its installed height in referenc eto the feed pipefrom the engine.

Please correct me if I'm on the wrong tangent, we have these sort of issues in Gas Turbines, PD Pumps and Compressors bearings, we utilise a manual flow valve which you can nominate the max bore size when ordering (e.g.1/8") but it takes a manual adjustment to get the flow rate correct. Maybe instead of guessing the orifice size a simple flow valve could be installed and the flow regulated for each application??

[Martin_D]

Tre Cool if the kit has an American Weldon oil pump there is a good chance that a previous owner may have adjusted the body of the pump (pump clearance can be changed) which can dramatically affect its ability to scavenge. This is one reason we switched pump manufacturers back in the very early days and took away the ability to change settings :)

We dont run restrictors with any of our Garrett turbochargers in this system, so wouldnt recommend you do either. In good condition the oil pump will return over 2 litres per minute back to the engine, which is more than is going through the turbochargers with 0.9mm factory restrictors :cool:

If you want to know more about adjusting the oil pump (should it be the old Weldon style) then call Gareth today on (08) 8341 0400 and he will step you through it. (Changing the pump side clearance changes its efficiency) :)

Also with Garrett turbochargers in place make sure you are using the low restriction BMC air filter assemblies that come with the turbochargers when we supply them

[SS346]

Im pretty certain that all GT series garrett turbos come with a restrictor, as martin said look into the scavenge pump, that may be the cause.

[Tre-Cool]

scavenge pump is pumping oil no probs, as i can take the line off and feed it into a coke bottle.

the only other slight problem i see is that with the weldon pump (mounted at the back of the gearbox in the bracket) it's only just slightly lower than the 90 degree oil return fitting's on the bottom of the turbo's.

so how can it gravity feed the pump if it's close to the same height? does the pump have the ability to suck the oil towards it. (create a vacuam?)

For Filters i have some 3" K&N's.

[Martin_D]

It all depends on the condition of the Weldon...a good one will lift vertically around 50cm without a problem :)

What wiring loom are you using to drive the pump? The answer to this might answer the entire question :cool:

[Tre-Cool]

It all depends on the condition of the Weldon...a good one will lift vertically around 50cm without a problem :)

What wiring loom are you using to drive the pump? The answer to this might answer the entire question :cool:
its not so much the lift. it's doing that fine to the rocker cover. im talking about the oil from the bottom of the turbo getting to the weldon.

the level of the oil return line between turbo and pump is almost dead level.

I just went and baught some 45 degree fittings to replace the 90's, hopefully this will put the line to the oil pump down on an angle towards the oil pump.

wiring harness is the delayed relay, with another relay and i've wired it to the fuel pump relay wire off the ecm. so it turns on at the ignition switch and also runs for about 30 seconds after shutdown as well.

[Martin_D]

its not so much the lift. it's doing that fine to the rocker cover. im talking about the oil from the bottom of the turbo getting to the weldon. the level of the oil return line between turbo and pump is almost dead level.

Thats fine, the Weldon if serviceable should lift (ie pull to the inlet) around 1/2 a metre. It will push - on the outlet - many metres :)

[HYMEY]

You undo the oil feed run into a bucket and crank engine. Run for 15 seconds and measure the oil in the bucket. So 1.5L min-2L min for bush bearing turbos and 800ml -1000ml for roller bearings. In your case the turbos should be ok if they have restrictors but I would be checking the volume of oil to each turbo

Also remember that its the drain side of things that is the issue. LS1s with low tension rings and boost equals blow by. Which isn't a bad thing, they do breath you have to ensure that your crankcase is breathing well. As it sees your oil drain as a potential breather and pushes gases back up the breather and oil then accumulates in the turbo and then finds its way out the seals,.. A lot of factory turbo cars have a breather from the sump for this very reason as gas pressure will want to go to the path of least resistance, which is why vac pumps etc are so popular as they increase ring seal and create crankcase vacuum which helps your turbo drain... Because you have a scavenger pump means this should not be an issue, Although if its a problem I would first be checking the oil flow, then breather arrangement, go through step by step.

cheers

[Tre-Cool]

im venting the RHS rocker cover to a catch can. i then put in a 1 way valve and t-peice from the pvc under the manifold that goes behind the TB and to my catch can. in fact i stole it from my ute and that runs boost and doesnt pressure the sump.

so there wouldnt be any back pressure in the rocker cover etc.

im goign to drop the oil into a measuring container tonight and time it for 60 seconds, then i'll put the new fittings in and give everything the once over... again.

OK. i took the return line off the turbo's tonight and ran the car. i used my mobile and got some footage. with oil coming out pretty quick at the bottom of the turbos there is still oil coming through the front, you can actually see it on the video's below.

Now, you cant tell me that isnt an excessive amount of oil for a BB turbo? (car idling at 1500rpm)

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/turbo-oil%20(1).mpeg
http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/turbo-oil%20(2).mpeg
http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/turbo-oil.mpg

You can hear the turbo's surging as well.

so either the new turbo's have blown seals or there is far too much oil going through them.

[SS346]

i cant view the vid's

[Tre-Cool]

i cant view the vid's
they came from my nokia in mp4 format.

gimme 2 minutes and i will re-encode them.

[IJ.]

Early GT's were unrestricted later ones have restrictors built in.

[JezzaB]

i cant view the vid's

Right click and Save As

[Martin_D]

What supply line kit are you using with this? There is also the chance you have modified cores that dont have restrictors in place from the factory (more likely the case). Any of the parts we supply from MTQ or GCG all have restrictors built into the core. A quick phone call to your supplier would answer the question :)

[Tre-Cool]

What supply line kit are you using with this? There is also the chance you have modified cores that dont have restrictors in place from the factory (more likely the case). Any of the parts we supply from MTQ or GCG all have restrictors built into the core. A quick phone call to your supplier would answer the question :)
turbos came from turbotech here in perth. i rang them yesterday and they told me the turbo cartridge itself has the restrictors built in.

so no need for other restrictors. I had to buy new fittings adapters for the oil feed into the turbo because the old turbos had a different fitting. (so they gave me some special type of fitting to meet up with the "bearing" inside) that's what i was told anyway.

The turbo feed line is identical to what you still sell now. (identical to what you have a pic of in your install instructions.)

-4 line to a long block of some sort with the t-peice on the end.

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/turbo-oil.avi

all 3 vids in 1 avi format. = 16meg.

[jai]

I think turbotech ****ed up your build :)

"whats these washers on the floor Joe"

"no idea *sweep*"

JK

[Tre-Cool]

Well i had a spare 1/4 bsp fitting that had a really small hole in it (was on with the old turbo's). so i swapped it over with the fitting on the engine. flow was probably reduced to about half. but still too much oil obviously so it took a little longer for the oil to start coming out the front housing.

still alot of oil coming out the bottom etc.

this is what i need.

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Catalog%20Images/Oil%20Supply/gtoilinlet035-01.jpg

-4 Size oil inlet fitting for GT Ball Bearing Turbos for GT28R/GT28RS/GT30R/GT35R with built-in oil restrictor (of .035" hole size). Custom machined part. Output is -4 AN male flare. use with any of our -4 feed line assemblies

the ones i got, did not have a restrictor like them. basically just a big hole.

another interesting link. (https://www.injectedperformance.com/ec/Product.aspx?ID=3861)


This oil feed restrictor fitting replaces the oil feed fitting going to your GT ball bearing turbos. The oil feed restrictor fitting causes the proper amount of oil to enter the turbo. With GT ball bearing turbos, using a regular 1/8"x-04 fitting causes an excess of oil to enter the turbo which causes oil blow by.

okay after spending another $150 today at go gear for some speedflow fittings and 0.9,1mm restrictors (smallest the shop had) the turbo's still have oil pissing out the front at idle.

WTF is going on here!!!

i only replaced the main line from the block to the 1-way valve with a 1mm restrictor.

As for TT, the guy got got confused on restrictor sizing and after Gareth told me they are indeed .8 restrictors (Cheers) After i told him this, he rang garrett where he was told Yes they are .8 restrictors in the turbo housing.

I think i might need to drop the turbo's off tomorrow and get them to check, coz this is absolute bullshit.

The restrictor on the 1 line is absolutely tiny.
http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/VESS/restrictor.jpg

just went and logged the oil pressure and im getting 2.0~2.1v's at 1500rpm.

so that works out to be about 25psi max.

Who reakons these turbo's are seriously ****ed or missing the internals?

either way there going back, lubbed in oil and all coz i'll be telling them where to stick the ****s!!!

video with 1mm restrictor feeding both turbo's.

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/turbo-1mm-restrictor.wmv

[Hammer]

doesnt sound good. hope you sort it out....

[Tre-Cool]

doesnt sound good. hope you sort it out....
oh i will. otherwise there will be flying turbo's through glass windows tomorrow.

car is supposed to be ready for tuning next week!!

[Martin_D]

A bizarre situation you have there.....interesting to see the cause :eek:

[jai]

Like i said... missing parts :P

Sorry to hear bro!

PS Car back braapbraap :)

JK

[Martin_D]

You know I have a set of correctly setup 2876s sitting on the shelf........... :lol:
Bet we could have done them at a good price straight up too :cool:
Good luck with it all, its all pretty simple stuff, so it wont take long to work out :)

Actually I just watched your vid with the restrictor Tre-Cool. You might need to have some patience and take a deep breath rather than trying to throw parts through Turbotechs front window. As it sits you probably dont have a problem. What you are seeing now is the residual oil from the previous arrangement, sitting in the compressor covers and getting sloshed around. Unbolt the compressor cover, clean it out (wash it thoroughly) and put it back on. Start with a fresh slate, then make a judgement. You will be surprised how much residual oil is still sitting in the comp cover, so take the time, clean it up, then make a decision :)

[Tre-Cool]

You know I have a set of correctly setup 2876s sitting on the shelf........... :lol:
Bet we could have done them at a good price straight up too :cool:
Good luck with it all, its all pretty simple stuff, so it wont take long to work out :)

Actually I just watched your vid with the restrictor Tre-Cool. You might need to have some patience and take a deep breath rather than trying to throw parts through Turbotechs front window. As it sits you probably dont have a problem. What you are seeing now is the residual oil from the previous arrangement, sitting in the compressor covers and getting sloshed around. Unbolt the compressor cover, clean it out (wash it thoroughly) and put it back on. Start with a fresh slate, then make a judgement. You will be surprised how much residual oil is still sitting in the comp cover, so take the time, clean it up, then make a decision :)
Problem is the turbo starts out dry (after cleaning) then 20 seconds later you get the sloshing sound coming from the turbo's. where the oil is making it "breath". achoo... achoo....achooo....

I would have happily purchased the turbo's from you direct, but you did point me in the direction of TT because they were local. (I coudlnt give a rats ass where they come from, local just means i have someone to argue face to face with) :lol:

Also the turbo is blowing oil out the rear into the exhaust too, i hadnt mentioned that simply because i was caught up in frustration with the whole experiance.

In fact hold onto those turbo's for a few days coz you might be getting a call. These ones will be either fixed or refunded. I don't enjoy getting the run around, as im sure most people dont.

Well credit to martin, he guessed correctly.

i connected up the pump and we've had the car running for 30 minutes and with some revs have managed to blow the oil out from the compressor housing along with burn a fair amount out of the exhaust.

Hopefully finish off the intake pipes tomorrow night, so i can start on my car.

It will be interesting to see the results with this car because it has the harrop, vcm fuel system, though it will be running 95 octane in the pilbara it should still be a fun car to drive. i know even for a stocker it had plenty of torque.

[Martin_D]

Well credit to martin, he guessed correctly. i connected up the pump and we've had the car running for 30 minutes and with some revs have managed to blow the oil out from the compressor housing along with burn a fair amount out of the exhaust.

Thats good to hear. Its not so much a guess as I have been in the same position before during some of our early development work and you just need to do the deep breath thing and think about it some. The amazing part is how the '1 drop makes 1000 litres kind of thing' happens with oil and turbochargers :)

Now onwards and upwards :cool:

[Tre-Cool]

Yeah, guess wasnt the word i was looking for, just had a brain fade.

Still doesnt explain why if the turbo's have a .8 restrictor in them why i needed to put a restrictor on the engine 1/4 fitting. then the restrictor in the line to the turbo's.

we put a oil pressure guage on before we reconnected and at 1500rpm had 23psi of oil pressure (with all the restrictors in place) but it's not like having the restrictors on reduces the oil pressure, only the amount of fluid available to push through to the turbo's?

[Tre-Cool]

did about 30km's in the car today, apart from running nice and fat in fuel and low in timing, it goes pretty well & is no longer smoking.

it'll be tuned with the 6psi wastegate pressure and then wound upto 10~11psi.

[Tre-Cool]

It appears as though i spoke to soon as i had my brothers car on the hoist again on the weekend to check things over and found the intake tubing was coated with oil.

Had the car running at idle for a few minutes and there was no oil coming out the front, so i jumped in and gave it a few revs (less than 3.5K) then took another look and yep, oil was starting to come out the front again.

So it looks like at idle the oil will not come through the front of the housing but as soon as any signicant revs are used the oil makes it way past the front seal.

I also get some bluish smoke come out the exhaust when the car is left for a few days and then started. However once it's running there is no smoke once it's idles for 5 minutes nor under boost.

so im looking for yet again, another restrictor. hoping 0.65 will help.

I rang GCG and spoke to michael who was very helpful, but he said he's never had to use anything smaller then the 1mm restrictor on any car which is what im allready running.

[jai]

Are you sure you havent overlooked the fact that Garrett is spelt Gerratt on your housings and that there are faint marks left on the CHRA that when put under UV light say MADE IN CHINA?

Sounds like a shithouse pair of turbos to me. Demand a refund or that they be rebuilt!

JK

[Tre-Cool]

Are you sure you havent overlooked the fact that Garrett is spelt Gerratt on your housings and that there are faint marks left on the CHRA that when put under UV light say MADE IN CHINA?

Sounds like a shithouse pair of turbos to me. Demand a refund or that they be rebuilt!

JK
lol shit stirrer.

I know from previous experiance with the t1000 kit, when the oil return line came off, i drove for 25km's with it dumping straight to the chassis rail and would have been lucky to have lost 2litres of oil.

these would empty the sump in that time frame.

[boyley]

Mate I cant believe you are percevering with these turbos. It sounds like the seals are no good or a bearing problem from what youve said. Can you not get replacements or your money back?

[Tre-Cool]

I'm a somewhat patient person and wanted to make sure there is nothing that needs to be done before i take them off.

Though it this stage, im thinking i mate take them off tonight and take them in.

[SS346]

Had any luck with the oil smoke and leak? are you using the weldon pump? does the oil return back into the rocker cover?

[HOWQUICK]

It appears as though i spoke to soon as i had my brothers car on the hoist again on the weekend to check things over and found the intake tubing was coated with oil.

Had the car running at idle for a few minutes and there was no oil coming out the front, so i jumped in and gave it a few revs (less than 3.5K) then took another look and yep, oil was starting to come out the front again.

So it looks like at idle the oil will not come through the front of the housing but as soon as any signicant revs are used the oil makes it way past the front seal.

I also get some bluish smoke come out the exhaust when the car is left for a few days and then started. However once it's running there is no smoke once it's idles for 5 minutes nor under boost.

so im looking for yet again, another restrictor. hoping 0.65 will help.

I rang GCG and spoke to michael who was very helpful, but he said he's never had to use anything smaller then the 1mm restrictor on any car which is what im allready running.

http://www.speedflow.com.au/restrictors.html

[Tre-Cool]

Had any luck with the oil smoke and leak? are you using the weldon pump? does the oil return back into the rocker cover?
Yeah, uses weldon pump to the rocker cover, im also using one of the speedflow 1mm oil restrictors, but it still had alot of oil going through the turbo's and a small bit into the intake tract build up over time.

I gave up on trying to stop it. When the car comes back to perth in november i'll take the turbo's off and get them looked at and not from the turbotech.

[Tre-Cool]

Just got a call from my brother, seems it's starting to blow smoke out the exhaust again.

he's going to make sure oil is getting to the rocker covers from the scavenge pump. if there is, then these turbo's have been ****ed since day dot.

[boyley]

Any updates Dave?

Just out of curiosity is there any restrictions to the lines coming from the PCV and valley cover vents?

cheers boyley

[Tre-Cool]

Any updates Dave?

Just out of curiosity is there any restrictions to the lines coming from the PCV and valley cover vents?

cheers boyley
it still smokes on startup for a few minutes. then goes away.

i suspect it's still putting alot of oil past the exhaust and induction seals though.

other than it he is still happy with it, apart from when he broke the oil fitting off the buttom rhs turbo when going over a speed bump.

Boyley the problem is not with the scavenging of oil etc as the turbo's just flow FAR to much oil through the housing's. Which to me says that when they were built the restrictors were not installed or there is something serious missing from the internals for oil control.

[boyley]

Dave cool as mate. I just discovered something myself and was just wondering if your sump pressure was higher than normal as this can cause a back up in the oil drain i.e. crancase or pcv not venting efficiently

[Tre-Cool]

Dave cool as mate. I just discovered something myself and was just wondering if your sump pressure was higher than normal as this can cause a back up in the oil drain i.e. crancase or pcv not venting efficiently
when i was checking the oil flow. i was letting it drain straight to the ground (thus not pumping it back into the engine.

the flow coming out was incredable, i think i posted some of the vids in this thread.

[Tre-Cool]

old thread but thought i'd update everyone who had input into this thread. i've had my brothers car back here with me in perth for the last couple of months doing upgrades on it.

anyway cut a long story short, after a recent dyno day the car would constantly blow shitloads of smoke out the exhaust after startup. im talking 5 minutes for the shit to clear. (mind you it hadnt stopped smoking since the kit went on. it would just go away and come back)

so today i decided to take the turbo's off and part from having about a litre of oil come out of the inlet - filter side of the piping. discovered there is indeed no ****ing restrictors on these turbo's!

Only a small olive within the feed hole about 5mm in size.

I will get a picture tomorrow for all to see.

[Tre-Cool]

Picture as promised. it's a bit blurry as it's from my blackberry.

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/IMG00001-20100822-1217.jpg

[duke5700]

That will do it everytime...