FG Turbo reliability?

[REV-IT]

Father-in-law purchased a brand new FG Turbo ute on last week's Wednesday. Took it for a spin for around 50 klms (spirited driving but definitely not overdoing it) and the engine started to sound rattly and run rough. The car was towed back to the dealer and they rang him up last night and said that it had spun a bearing and the entire engine will be replaced?? Surely this is not normal but I'm wondering if there are others who have had a dud FG?

[pelagonia_ss]

Didn't they had a shitload of problems with this turbo in earlier models ? (BA) ?

[Excellent]

Ghia351 has a G6ET though I'd doubt he's had any issues with his or at least he hasn't described any.

[Road Warrior]

There was someone who posted on FF who had one as well, the culprit was a casting plug or some sort of bung that had been left in the intake manifold after manufacture and ingested by the turbo. Apparently they replaced the engine and entire intake system. The photos certainly weren't very flattering.

Pretty lazy and avoidable mistake IMO, shouldn't happen on a 60K car

[EgoFG]

Try asking on FF - If you do not have an account I can for you

[Ghia351]

Ghia351 has a G6ET though I'd doubt he's had any issues with his or at least he hasn't described any.Yep, no probs that caused dramas. Only issues for me has been a loose plastic clip which spaces apart some plumbing tubes above the access. belt. One report a week or two, with pictures of a turbo being chewed up by injestion of some metal left over from assembly of engine (IIRC). One engine failure reported on AFF in first few km for a G6ET a long while ago as far as I remember. I'll see what else I can did up.

edit Road Warrior beat me to it.

Maybe a search here: http://www.fordforums.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=33

[gmeup]

Take it up on the ford forums mate,

[vecommo]

Here's one from the Ford forum thread:


My Blue FG turbo ute went in for it's 15000 km service and the turbo has had it, it is leaking oil and there is 3mm of play, the intake blades have been touching the body, not at all good.

Seems the turbos don't last very long.

[Torxteer]

Father-in-law purchased a brand new FG Turbo ute on last week's Wednesday. Took it for a spin for around 50 klms (spirited driving but definitely not overdoing it) and the engine started to sound rattly and run rough. The car was towed back to the dealer and they rang him up last night and said that it had spun a bearing and the entire engine will be replaced?? Surely this is not normal but I'm wondering if there are others who have had a dud FG?

Sounds like a manufacturing problem there unless someone had given it a complete thrashing before delivery(unlikely).

Good news is they're replacing the entire engine instead of trying to rebuild it.

The 4.0l sixes have generally been pretty solid especially in the bottom end.

[macca_779]

Sounds like a manufacturing problem there unless someone had given it a complete thrashing before delivery(unlikely).

Good news is they're replacing the entire engine instead of trying to rebuild it.

The 4.0l sixes have generally been pretty solid especially in the bottom end.

Which is a better response on Fords part than what holden did with the hundreds of slapper LS1's that hit the roads.

[nang3]

Here's one from the Ford forum thread:



Seems the turbos don't last very long.

yes from that one example you posted we can all instantly infer that as a blanket rule the Ford turbos dont last very long whatsoever whether stock or modified.

all cars have lemons, so there's no point emphasizing your problems with depth perception yet again for the billionth time by singling out 1 particular failed ford turbo.

[VXSS346]

yes from that one example you posted we can all instantly infer that as a blanket rule the Ford turbos dont last very long whatsoever whether stock or modified.

all cars have lemons, so there's no point emphasizing your problems with depth perception yet again for the billionth time by singling out 1 particular failed ford turbo.

Well said :goodjob:

Cheers :)

[SHANESVZSS]

yes from that one example you posted we can all instantly infer that as a blanket rule the Ford turbos dont last very long whatsoever whether stock or modified.

all cars have lemons, so there's no point emphasizing your problems with depth perception yet again for the billionth time by singling out 1 particular failed ford turbo.

+ 1 for well said :goodjob:

keep in mind its still a new model and they have change a few things so naturaly theres going to be a couple of issue , as long as ford are willing to fix it the few that have these issues then its all good , the ve's have had their fair share of problems..

[Ellistwo]

Father-in-law purchased a brand new FG Turbo ute on last week's Wednesday. Took it for a spin for around 50 klms (spirited driving but definitely not overdoing it) and the engine started to sound rattly and run rough. The car was towed back to the dealer and they rang him up last night and said that it had spun a bearing and the entire engine will be replaced?? Surely this is not normal but I'm wondering if there are others who have had a dud FG?

No big deal if they're going to replace the engine. Buying a turbo engine always comes with a downside, usually after warranty, when the turbo thrust plates, bearings and pistons wear out and the coke up. If you're not handy and the car is a keeper, it's prudent to budget for a few thousand to replace. A V8 would be a better call for peace of mind in my books, but there are horror stories there too.

[troytroy]

Too be honest, I don't think I would say there are any systemic issues (like the original LS1 piston slap issue for example) with the engines of the Ford Turbo engines. The main guts of the engine has been around for quite some time and any niggly issues would have been sorted through the models evolution. They're pretty solid - considering what most modifiers are pushing them to do on standard internals over the years.

The Turbos are what could effectively be called - Very reliable. (unlike 80's era turbo technology) And like any turbo rely on decent and fresh oil to survive. The turbos are made by GARRETT - arguably one of the best and most prolific manufacturers of turbos. Thr GT30 Turbo has been around since the first BA model with minor differences through the models - Have a look, if you're that way inclined :0 through XR6Turbo.com and you'll see there are literally hundreds of Turbo owners pushing rediculous power and boost through their standard Turbos.

The O.P. has probably just experienced a rare statistical manufacturing glitch, which will always happen when you deal with stuff made by humans.

I can't believe I'm defending Ford.......

[Road Warrior]

(unlike 80's era turbo technology)

I was originally going to post ITT about that. What was the story? I seem to recall a swathe of turbo Jap cars from the 1980's that used to shit their pants on a regular basis.

[nang3]

Too be honest, I don't think I would say there are any systemic issues (like the original LS1 piston slap issue for example) with the engines of the Ford Turbo engines. The main guts of the engine has been around for quite some time and any niggly issues would have been sorted through the models evolution. They're pretty solid - considering what most modifiers are pushing them to do on standard internals over the years.

The Turbos are what could effectively be called - Very reliable. (unlike 80's era turbo technology) And like any turbo rely on decent and fresh oil to survive. The turbos are made by GARRETT - arguably one of the best and most prolific manufacturers of turbos. Thr GT30 Turbo has been around since the first BA model with minor differences through the models - Have a look, if you're that way inclined :0 through XR6Turbo.com and you'll see there are literally hundreds of Turbo owners pushing rediculous power and boost through their standard Turbos.

The O.P. has probably just experienced a rare statistical manufacturing glitch, which will always happen when you deal with stuff made by humans.

I can't believe I'm defending Ford.......

good post mate, even if you did end it with some one eyed bias hahaha

[signature coupe]

you buy a turbo and you will get troubles sooner or later

[nang3]

you buy a CAR and you will get troubles sooner or later

fixed for ya mate hahaha

[On Da Ghia]

you buy a turbo and you will get troubles sooner or later

Thanks for the heads up, I better ring Porche, Nissan, Toyota, Saab, Ford, Maserati, Mazda, Bugatti, and all the rest and let them know they're going to have trouble.

:goodjob:

[Ellistwo]

Don't bother ringing SAAB, they already know what it's like to replace GT17 turbochargers worldwide.

[nang3]

Thanks for the heads up, I better ring Porche, Nissan, Toyota, Saab, Ford, Maserati, Mazda, Bugatti, and all the rest and let them know they're going to have trouble.

:goodjob:

dont forget Audi, Brabus, Hamann + all the mega buck euro tuning houses who like to whack turbos on exotics like fezzas etc

[vysandman]

I don't think the turbo is the problem . The diff/driveline is the week link.
I went for a drive in my ute a couple of weeks ago and came home on a tilt tray. Not uncommon apparently.

[cashie]

I was originally going to post ITT about that. What was the story? I seem to recall a swathe of turbo Jap cars from the 1980's that used to shit their pants on a regular basis.

The late 80's, early 90's Japanese use of ceramic impellors caused a fair few cars to have issues.
I know when I imported a Soarer the first job I had was to pull the turbos for a rebuild as one had dumped the impellor (this was in a stock car too). When boosted, the ceramic units generally didn't last too long.
Even my 300ZX Twin Turbo (non-ceramic turbos) was due the turbos to be rebuilt at 120,000kms.

[nang3]

I don't think the turbo is the problem . The diff/driveline is the week link.
I went for a drive in my ute a couple of weeks ago and came home on a tilt tray. Not uncommon apparently.

really?? what did you blow?? i havent heard much about the drivelines popping unless its CV's from hard launches??

[SHANESVZSS]

a bit off topic.... i drove a new fg xr6t a6 on the weekend and it was great , felt solid and for a stock car it ripped!

[Ellistwo]

The late 80's, early 90's Japanese use of ceramic impellors caused a fair few cars to have issues.
I know when I imported a Soarer the first job I had was to pull the turbos for a rebuild as one had dumped the impellor (this was in a stock car too). When boosted, the ceramic units generally didn't last too long.
Even my 300ZX Twin Turbo (non-ceramic turbos) was due the turbos to be rebuilt at 120,000kms.

It was a shame the ceramic ran into problems. The hot spin testing didn't indicate long term problems. During testing the ceramic turbine spooled 36% faster and was 66% of the mass of the conventional metal units.

Failure wasn't only confined to the ceramic units. Normal everyday IHIs and Garretts suffered with CHRAs coking, diffuser plates getting scrubbed out by seizing pistons, etc. I would guess a lot of the problem was judiscious observance of oil changes, ragging the engine and maintenance.

[seldo]

Here's one from the Ford forum thread:

Seems the turbos don't last very long. I certainly wouldn't call a single failure as typical. I know this will amaze you, but there has also been the occassional Holden that has had a major failure too...
Let's try to keep it even handed...

[MonoJoker]

Even handed, surely you jest? Sorry just had to check which forum I'm in :)

I like how the poster who finished with "can't believe I'm defending Ford" wasn't doing so at all he was defending Garrett LOL. But then any thread like this will quickly fill up with sh**, it's the LS1 way.

There's any number of reasons a turbo may fail from manufacturing issues to dirty oil to mistreatment on that drive. Again the driving was not "overdoing it" whatever that means - and who's definition of overdoing is being used ;) Was it allowed to get up to full OT before "not overdoing" it, was it driven sensibly a few minutes before shutting off. If you want to be careless there are plenty of ways to kill a turbo.

The one thing about reliability is no-one can say until there's a decent size sample of failure rates that can be compared with similar KMs to non-failed. To me asking about FG turbo reliability would seem rather premature...

[REV-IT]

Judging by the replies sounds as though father-in-law was unlucky to encounter such a serious problem. He got his ute back on Friday and it runs sweet. Ford dealer claimed that the problem was caused by a faulty conrod. The entire engine was replaced with a new one and to my amazement even the engine number remains original.

[GAMBIT]

Hi Mate,

i had an FG XR6T for 5 months/15 000km before it was stolen from my driveway in March. It was the best car i have ever owned. Fast, reliable, used less fuel than my SS and would munch it up to 100km/h. I did not experience ANY of the issues that your father-in-law did. The FG turbo is a brilliant engine, i cant rave about it enough.

[SHANESVZSS]

Hi Mate,

i had an FG XR6T for 5 months/15 000km before it was stolen from my driveway in March. It was the best car i have ever owned. Fast, reliable, used less fuel than my SS and would munch it up to 100km/h. I did not experience ANY of the issues that your father-in-law did. The FG turbo is a brilliant engine, i cant rave about it enough.

when you say the xr6t would "munch it up to 100km/h" how did they compare after that?? rolling starts ect? just out of couriosity :)

[AndrewR8]

ShaneVZSS,

I got "munched" by an FG XR6 Turbo rolling start in my VE R8. No surprise really with the aggressive torque delivery. Off the line I got him off but he quickly came running back then we leveled off. My father in law has a VE SSV and he got chomped by a FG XR6 Turbo, he wasn't a happy chappy! But its no surprise really as the engine hits full torque very low in the rev range, and in terms of reliability I know a few that have hit well over 50,000kms with no issues at all, some tuned. Credit where its due they are a great engine and good aussie engineering at its best.

I came very close to buying the F6 but wanted a V8 and the GT didn't have the power. That's the only reason for me buying the HSV, next car will be the F6 then I have had best of both.

[vr5speedv6]

I don't really understand why alot of you guys think these ford I6's are so awesome. Look at the bore/stroke for example. If you were designing a performance engine from scratch do you think you'd be wanting to go with a super long stroke? It's a compromised engine with a design that is really more at home in a taxi or a tractor:jester:

[nang3]

I don't really understand why alot of you guys think these ford I6's are so awesome. Look at the bore/stroke for example. If you were designing a performance engine from scratch do you think you'd be wanting to go with a super long stroke? It's a compromised engine with a design that is really more at home in a taxi or a tractor:jester:

dunno about others on here, but i dont look inside the block when test driving or considering a new car... I look at performance, looks, price, quality, BFYB and suitability for whatever application i'll be using it for pretty much..

do you also think the LSx's are shite for using pushrods, which while very effective and makes for good motors, is an older technology?

It probably is a compromised engine in terms of outright design but ford have done well with the turbo 4L, no doubt about it.

[vr5speedv6]

do you also think the LSx's are shite for using pushrods, which while very effective and makes for good motors, is an older technology?
.

There's lots of advantages with going OHV. You only need to compare the ford boss motor with the LSx's to see that ;)

[VZMY06SS]

I don't really understand why alot of you guys think these ford I6's are so awesome. Look at the bore/stroke for example. If you were designing a performance engine from scratch do you think you'd be wanting to go with a super long stroke? It's a compromised engine with a design that is really more at home in a taxi or a tractor:jester:

Performance engines in general actually use larger bores than strokes. NASCAR and F1 are both examples of this. They are termed 'oversquare' engines, as they have a much larger bore than stroke which allows for lower piston speeds, less wear and higher rev's.
If you think you can make a better engine than the one ford is currently using, then maybe you should, as it is a leading engine in its class.

Just a pity for the ford boys that the class it is in is a few classes below that of LSx engines :)

Steve

[vr5speedv6]

Performance engines in general actually use larger bores than strokes. NASCAR and F1 are both examples of this. They are termed 'oversquare' engines, as they have a much larger bore than stroke which allows for lower piston speeds, less wear and higher rev's.
If you think you can make a better engine than the one ford is currently using, then maybe you should, as it is a leading engine in its class.

Just a pity for the ford boys that the class it is in is a few classes below that of LSx engines :)

Steve


That's the point I was making, the ford I6 is undersquare. Not something you would go for if designing a performance engine.

[cashie]

That's the point I was making, the ford I6 is undersquare. Not something you would go for if designing a performance engine.

But something you do if you want torque..... the I6 does not lack torque in any FG configuration...

[Evman]

A mate's BA XR6T spun a bearing a few months ago. It's hardly recall material but it's not an isolated incident.

[Martin_D]

There's lots of advantages with going OHV. You only need to compare the ford boss motor with the LSx's to see that ;)

You are right, I am sure there are many manufacturers now looking to run buried cam + rockers in their engines after the success of GM. Bucket and shim direct valve actuation has been way overrated for many years :(

[nudenut]

You are right, I am sure there are many manufacturers now looking to run buried cam + rockers in their engines after the success of GM. Bucket and shim direct valve actuation has been way overrated for many years :(
Actually, I can't think of a single new car design that isn't OHV! (Other than the odd Mazda, anyway.) VR5speedV6 was right! Not sure why he's comparing the Boss and LSx motors, though, they're both OHV designs. However, I'm sure that an LS3 would be both more powerful and more efficient than a Ford sidevalve design from the 1930s!

:jester:

[vr5speedv6]

Actually, I can't think of a single new car design that isn't OHV! (Other than the odd Mazda, anyway.) VR5speedV6 was right! Not sure why he's comparing the Boss and LSx motors, though, they're both OHV designs. However, I'm sure that an LS3 would be both more powerful and more efficient than a Ford sidevalve design from the 1930s!

:jester:


Read this old mate, it'll help you understand ;)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_valve)

[Ellistwo]

Performance engines in general actually use larger bores than strokes. NASCAR and F1 are both examples of this. They are termed 'oversquare' engines, as they have a much larger bore than stroke which allows for lower piston speeds, less wear and higher rev's.
If you think you can make a better engine than the one ford is currently using, then maybe you should, as it is a leading engine in its class.

Just a pity for the ford boys that the class it is in is a few classes below that of LSx engines :)

Steve

It's a little more than piston speed/acceleration and there are downsides to oversquare, including sidewall loading, increased flame travel (emmissions). The long stroke motors restrict the cam events to a degree.

[nang3]

...

Just a pity for the ford boys that the class it is in is a few classes below that of LSx engines :)

Steve

ROFL im not gonna bite !!


I dont think anyone here can argue that both the LSx and Turbo motors are both excellent motors regardless of the different technologies employed in both, undersquare or pushrod or whatever.
They meet the manufacturers criteria of reliable, powerful and economical to build.

[MonoJoker]

Didn't take this thread long to turn into a H vs F pissing contest :goodjob:

The 4L 6 isn't a performance engine, it's a fleet/taxi motor that has done very well with a hair drier bolted on to make a decent performance sedan for a very good price. Hehe I loved the advantages of OHV claim using the Boss 5.4 as an example though - :jester:

Cheers
LT.

[fatbob]

Any thread in this forum with a title saying "ford reliability" is bound to be a pissing contest thread - worth reading for the giggle factor though.

[nang3]

Didn't take this thread long to turn into a H vs F pissing contest :goodjob:

The 4L 6 isn't a performance engine, it's a fleet/taxi motor that has done very well with a hair drier bolted on to make a decent performance sedan for a very good price. Hehe I loved the advantages of OHV claim using the Boss 5.4 as an example though - :jester:

Cheers
LT.

very true, imagine if Ford got off their slack asses and built a proper performance engine then seeing as the current fleet/taxi motor responds so well to a hair dryer!

just out of interest could the LSx motors be classed as performance motors? I dont know enough about them to know what other applications they have been/are used for over in the states?


Any thread in this forum with a title saying "ford reliability" is bound to be a pissing contest thread - worth reading for the giggle factor though.

ROFL exactly!

[vecommo]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

[Irish]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

Very few motors last anywhere near as long as the I6 has. It has been upgraded over the years just like windsor V8's but both have lasted over 40 years. Has to be close to the longest time for an engine in service and amazingly it is still comptetitive with its direct competitors.

[Falcon SXR8]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

Thats one of the best storys I have ever read, right up there with the tooth fairy and santa except not quite as true :goodjob:

[nudenut]

Read this old mate, it'll help you understand ;)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_valve)
Thanks, I feel really edumacated now. Wikipedia ... the be all and end all of research. What do you think "OHV" stands for? Oh wait, it's in that article ...

In automotive engineering, an overhead valve internal combustion engine is one in which the intake and exhaust valves and ports are contained in the cylinder head.
This applies to both the Boss and LSx motors, yes?

To repeat ... just about all current engines have an overhead valve design. Some are pushrod cam-in-block, most are now OHC (which is actually an older design than pushrod). The fact that a lot of people mistake "OHV" for "pushrod design" doesn't make it right. Does this help you understand? :jester:

[fatbob]

Actually - think on why its a giggle that on a holden forum, a thread saying ford not good, becomes a pissing contest. Look at who actually responds with opinions etc.. Their rides and avatar names. Notice anything about where majority of opinionated and strong comments come from ? Interesting huh.

[VZMY06SS]

ROFL im not gonna bite !!




Lol. Just as well mate, there are a lot of one eyed Holden boys out there.

Nothing wrong with the I6 engines though. The new ones sure can handle the miles, and the turbo's make amazing power and torque for an engine that started out in family cars. Turbo's are amazing things!

Steve

[vysandman]

Actually - think on why its a giggle that on a holden forum, a thread saying ford not good, becomes a pissing contest. Look at who actually responds with opinions etc.. Their rides and avatar names. Notice anything about where majority of opinionated and strong comments come from ? Interesting huh.

Exactly. I always notice that too ! (I might be the exception)


really?? what did you blow?? i havent heard much about the drivelines popping unless its CV's from hard launches??

Haven't done a hard launch yet. Of all the cars I've ever owned, this one has been treated the most kindly by far. I was doing about 20km/h near an intersection and accelerated fairly hard to avaid being hit by a lady reversing out of a car space (in a shopping area) and as I crossed the intersection and went over the rise in the road "bang" and the car stopped going forward. I thought the gearbox had died (Auto) . Took it to the dealer on a tilt tray and had a good look underneath, there was nothing hanging down but there was oil all over themuffler. Dealer had it for 3 days and when I rang them to check what the problem was, I was told it was the tailshaft and they fitted a new tailshaft. (How do they explain the oil)? .
Picked the car up, drove home (about 300metres) and I have a vibration and another noise. Dropped car back and had to leave for another 2 days. Problem ? Fit new tailshaft ? Huh, I just had one of those fitted ? Picked car up still have vibration, took it back, left for a day, apparently the tailshaft wasn't balanced. Now I have a droning sound coming in at about 80 km/h and goes out about 90-95km/h. Since I've had it repaired, it just for some reason feels fragile in the back end. The gearbox (which I love) has little moments (clunks) occasionally as I come to a stop and the driveline makes little noises which weren't there prior to the first problem. It p1sses me off that much that I'm seriosly thinking of getting rid of it. It's not a bad car, pretty good value for money, excellent bang for your buck but unfortunatel, it aint no commodore. No bias, just an honest opinion, having owned both.

[MonoJoker]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

How so? 5 billion taxi Kms on a 3 speed auto without a rebuild can't be wrong :bow:

[superoo]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

Congratulations on finally driving one!

I've had no turbo issues after 138,000 kms on my BA.
Regular oil changes are important. The FG has a revised turbo to shorten spool times and reduce lag so will be interesting to see if this has any reliability consequences.

[vr5speedv6]

Thanks, I feel really edumacated now. Wikipedia ... the be all and end all of research. What do you think "OHV" stands for? Oh wait, it's in that article ...

This applies to both the Boss and LSx motors, yes?

To repeat ... just about all current engines have an overhead valve design. Some are pushrod cam-in-block, most are now OHC (which is actually an older design than pushrod). The fact that a lot of people mistake "OHV" for "pushrod design" doesn't make it right. Does this help you understand? :jester:


What you need to understand is that OHV is a universally accepted term to describe a pushrod motor. Making your initial post kind of pointless:goodjob:

[nang3]

The Ford I6 would have to go down as one of the most overrated engines in automotive history.

vecommo turns up, hilarity ensues!!!

But yes you are right though, they are pretty shit and overrated motors.

An easy 350-400rwkw from unopened F6 motors and running 12 second quarters stock is an excellent indicator of a shitty overrated motor that has no place being in an Aussie performance car.
Damn ford should have used the Ecotec yeh???

[lollymanv8]

Given that Garrett has been producing turbos forever, I'd be very surprised if it is found to be unreliabable down the road... Reliability aside, the FG 4L I6 with a single Garrett turbo is an insane motor; all 533nm of torque at 2000rpm! I think there is an overboost boost feature as well which increases the torque and power further. I reckon it'd be hardwork trying to balance all that torque on a wet road.

[vr5speedv6]

Damn ford should have used the Ecotec yeh???


If GM had done a turbo on the 3.8 like the buick grand national, the ford I6 would've been blown into the weeds:bow:

[SHANESVZSS]

ford or not i wouldnt mind owning one i think there great :goodjob:

[signature coupe]

If GM had done a turbo on the 3.8 like the buick grand national, the ford I6 would've been blown into the weeds:bow:

here here
ford chuck a turbo on and all of a sudden its the be all and end all hahaha
just wish holden would pull there fingers out and do this already just to shut the smug ford fans right up
in saying that the I6 goes awesome,holden fans(me inparticular)just wish holden would keep up in the add ons available to us all

[Vulture]

An easy 350-400rwkw from unopened F6 motors and running 12 second quarters stock is an excellent indicator...

...and running 12s quarters with 400rwkw as well :hide: :stick:

[vr5speedv6]

here here
ford chuck a turbo on and all of a sudden its the be all and end all hahaha
just wish holden would pull there fingers out and do this already just to shut the smug ford fans right up
in saying that the I6 goes awesome,holden fans(me inparticular)just wish holden would keep up in the add ons available to us all


Yeah the alloytec would have huge potential in turbo form, I think one was rumoured to be putting out 1600hp in the states.

[nang3]

...and running 12s quarters with 400rwkw as well :hide: :stick:

ROFL yeh some modded ones have severe traction/driver issues hahah..

but i think 12's from a stock motor is good no matter what the brand!! certainly doesnt mean its overrated!


If GM had done a turbo on the 3.8 like the buick grand national, the ford I6 would've been blown into the weeds:bow:

dunno about blowing the ford turbo into the weeds as im sure they would increase outputs as required to remain competitive but i just had a look at the Buicks Grand National turbos, damn impressive figures for a 22 year old car !!!!!!!

"Performance: Grand National: 1/4 mile in 14.23 seconds @ 98 mph. "

or add US$11,000 for the GNX pack ;

"GNX: 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 13.43 seconds @ 103 mph."

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/buick-grandnational/buick-grandnational.shtml

although the total GNX price was US$29,900 which was a fair bit back in the 80's but im sure it would have killed some much more exxy cars of the day!!

I wish Holden would bring out a turbo 6 as well! more competition all round is always good

[MonoJoker]

Someone needs to learn the difference between OHV and OHC methinks :rolleyes:

[nudenut]

What you need to understand is that OHV is a universally accepted term to describe a pushrod motor.
I understand what you're getting at - as I said, that doesn't make it right. (The world was once universally accepted as flat.) I reckon that asking "which is better - OHC or OHV?" is a bit like asking "who are better drivers - women or humans?" Personally I'm not sure, though I know that women are less likely to argue whose pushrods are bigger. :jester:

It would definitely be very interesting to see a 3.6T from Holden. Haven't Saab done some development work on a turbo HFV6?

[VY18s]

ROFL yeh some modded ones have severe traction/driver issues hahah..

but i think 12's from a stock motor is good no matter what the brand!! certainly doesnt mean its overrated!



dunno about blowing the ford turbo into the weeds as im sure they would increase outputs as required to remain competitive but i just had a look at the Buicks Grand National turbos, damn impressive figures for a 22 year old car !!!!!!!

"Performance: Grand National: 1/4 mile in 14.23 seconds @ 98 mph. "

or add US$11,000 for the GNX pack ;

"GNX: 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 13.43 seconds @ 103 mph."

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/buick-grandnational/buick-grandnational.shtml

although the total GNX price was US$29,900 which was a fair bit back in the 80's but im sure it would have killed some much more exxy cars of the day!!

I wish Holden would bring out a turbo 6 as well! more competition all round is always good

Now if Holden only brought a Turbo V6 VN back in the day. That's seriously fast. It almost beats an XR6T, and F6.

[stu-k]

Plenty of bent conrods and busted blocks with modded xr6t motors(pre fg dunno bout new ones). But in saying that I might have brought a fg if the seating wasn't so bad

[nang3]

Now if Holden only brought a Turbo V6 VN back in the day. That's seriously fast. It almost beats an XR6T, and F6.

yeh no shit, imagine today's cars if that was the benchmark back then in the Red vs Blue rivalry !! we'd be running 10's haha.. actually nah the **** wit pollies would have canned it like the old supercar scare bullshit

[vr5speedv6]

I understand what you're getting at - as I said, that doesn't make it right. (The world was once universally accepted as flat.) I reckon that asking "which is better - OHC or OHV?" is a bit like asking "who are better drivers - women or humans?" Personally I'm not sure, though I know that women are less likely to argue whose pushrods are bigger. :jester:



You're right it's not technically correct, but I think most people would realise the valves of an OHC motor are also in the head and therefore wouldn't cause confusion.


It would definitely be very interesting to see a 3.6T from Holden. Haven't Saab done some development work on a turbo HFV6?

Yeah Holden builds them out here, unfortunately they're only low boost 2.8's though:(

[XUV]

If GM had done a turbo on the 3.8 like the buick grand national, the ford I6 would've been blown into the weeds:bow:

Holden people aren't interested in 6's for power .

They had a blown 3.8 , hardly has a following .

a turbo'd 6 is just 2 pistons away from rice .

I drive a V8 , therefore I am .

[Ellistwo]

ROFL yeh some modded ones have severe traction/driver issues hahah..

but i think 12's from a stock motor is good no matter what the brand!! certainly doesnt mean its overrated!



............

You can send a VL turbo down with 500rwkw and get sub nines and traction on those babies is woeful.... I know coz I had one. Comparo = 1986 technology outranking ... well..... 1986 technology. LOL


I wish Holden would bring out a turbo 6 as well! more competition all round is always good

They did (see above), Ford answered by making an unsuccessful attempt at Rip Van Winkle's slumber record before giving up and inventing turbo chargers, torque, vegemite and revisionist history.

[nang3]

You can send a VL turbo down with 500rwkw and get sub nines and traction on those babies is woeful.... I know coz I had one. Comparo = 1986 technology outranking ... well..... 1986 technology. LOL



They did (see above), Ford answered by making an unsuccessful attempt at Rip Van Winkle's slumber record before giving up and inventing turbo chargers, torque, vegemite and revisionist history.

dont forget the VL probably weighed a good few hundred kg less and was powered by Nissan after all hahahaha.. nah VL T's were great cars, as a p plater i always wanted one but never ended up getting one

holden released a turbo 6 ???
I know they had the supercharged 6 which was a bit mediocre IIRC ?? I cant really remember how they compared to the LSx's and ford turbos at the time or if they were even out while the LSx/I6T was around???

[fatbob]

I think missing the point - play the ball, not the man yeah ?
So back to thread topic and back to car stuff and not personal stuff perhaps ?

[motomk]

I think missing the point - play the ball, not the man yeah ?
So back to thread topic and back to car stuff and not personal stuff perhaps ?

What he said!

Back to the thread.

[Ellistwo]

OK back on topic and the known problems:


Engine surges when cold.

Boost produces oil leaks from blowby

Bluetooth and Ipod issues

Electrical problems

Steering system clatter on uneven surface

XR6 FG utes blowing tailshafts and XR6 FG's in general have a tailshaft/diff thump.

[EgoFG]

OK back on topic and the known problems:


Engine surges when cold.

Boost produces oil leaks from blowby

Bluetooth and Ipod issues

Electrical problems

Steering system clatter on uneven surface

XR6 FG utes blowing tailshafts and XR6 FG's in general have a tailshaft/diff thump.

Although not an FG, nor a turbo mine had a 'tail shaft' thump. It was a tuning problem in the 6sp Auto - not enough torque converter on kickdown from 2 to 1 under slight acceleration uphill. Most 'tail shaft' thump I have heard about has been the same issue.

Bluetooth issues I have read about are typically actually iPhone issues (my blue blood extends to my phone - I am a Nokia Biggot !)

[Ellistwo]

I'm not sure if it's just the kickdown, or that the tailshaft setup has changed from the BF. Blokes with problem utes have complained the yoke is weaker and the bearing system is intolerant to end slap or lack thereof. There has been some suggestion the fix is to retrofit the BA/BF, or whatever, tailshaft assembly into the FG.

[offshore]

OK back on topic and the known problems:


Engine surges when cold.

Boost produces oil leaks from blowby

Bluetooth and Ipod issues

Electrical problems

Steering system clatter on uneven surface

XR6 FG utes blowing tailshafts and XR6 FG's in general have a tailshaft/diff thump.

Blowby is common and occurs with all turbo motors worse with high boost. Thats what a Catch can is for as all good turbo enthusiasts have haha.

[Ellistwo]

Maybe on a worn lump, but a turbo engine shouldn't blowby to the point where the PCV valve seal weeps, especially on a newish engine. If you have to use a catchcan, you are missing a substantial amount of power.

I would hazzard a guess and suggest the rod/stroke ratio of the I6T results in a fair amount of sidewall loading and torsional twist on the rings. I'm assuming the I6 has an RSR of about 1.6, because it is biased to early power/torque which is fairly characteristic of that ratio (and tractors LOL).

[nang3]

nice little dig there mate - tractors also have round wheels just like your holden ROFL !!!

back on topic;



Engine surges when cold.

Boost produces oil leaks from blowby

Bluetooth and Ipod issues

Electrical problems

Steering system clatter on uneven surface

XR6 FG utes blowing tailshafts and XR6 FG's in general have a tailshaft/diff thump.


Apart from a few minor ipod issues and the tailshaft/drivline shunt being 'within factory tolerances' according to the dipshits at ford warranty even for BA-BF, i've not heard much about the rest of those issues you mentioned regarding the FG's.... especially not enough to be referred to as 'known issues' like the BA-FG driveline shunt or piston slap LS1's ??
thats not a dig or anything, im just surprised ive not heard more about it??

[Excellent]

nice little dig there mate - tractors also have round wheels just like your holden ROFL !!!

back on topic;


And how's this for an even better dig, nang3?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11270273

Ford quality, hey? Sometimes it just doesn't matter how good your ride is, if its quality sucks then the product generally sucks! :soap:

[nang3]

ROFL that does not surprise me in the slightest as to fords shithouse warranty - ask any ford owner they will agree !!!
same reason i will never let any car i own go to a dealer for anything apart from warranty work - i dont want semi-trained monkeys working on my car!!

[planetdavo]

ROFL that does not surprise me in the slightest as to fords shithouse warranty - ask any ford owner they will agree !!!
same reason i will never let any car i own go to a dealer for anything apart from warranty work - i dont want semi-trained monkeys working on my car!!
As opposed to the fully trained owners that seem to join forums. Seem to know how to fix everything, just don't have the time to do it themselves...:hide:

[Ellistwo]

nice little dig there mate - tractors also have round wheels just like your holden ROFL !!!

back on topic;



Apart from a few minor ipod issues and the tailshaft/drivline shunt being 'within factory tolerances' according to the dipshits at ford warranty even for BA-BF, i've not heard much about the rest of those issues you mentioned regarding the FG's.... especially not enough to be referred to as 'known issues' like the BA-FG driveline shunt or piston slap LS1's ??
thats not a dig or anything, im just surprised ive not heard more about it??

What piston slap? That's an old Ford Wive's tale, it was merely the skirts saying hello by kissing the bores.

They are known issues, just ask fellow Ford owners who are not coloured with blue dye.

[MonoJoker]

As opposed to the fully trained owners that seem to join forums. Seem to know how to fix everything, just don't have the time to do it themselves...:hide:

I wish I had a hoist.

:popcorn::booze:

[nang3]

As opposed to the fully trained owners that seem to join forums. Seem to know how to fix everything, just don't have the time to do it themselves...:hide:

ROFL - i would be the last person anyone should put near a car needing anything mechanical or electrical fixed hahahaha... i use the same mechanic ive been using for the past 14 years, never had a problem and hes from the old school of respecting cars not a new apprentice thrashing them !!

[planetdavo]

ROFL - i would be the last person anyone should put near a car needing anything mechanical or electrical fixed hahahaha... i use the same mechanic ive been using for the past 14 years, never had a problem and hes from the old school of respecting cars not a new apprentice thrashing them !!
By popular public opinion, very true.
But, the current gun mechanics were often a previous generation's pimply faced, car flogging apprentices living a wet dream too... :teach:
It is unwise to label most current apprentices as car thrashing hoons though. Most treat customers cars with respect and ask senior experienced staff for help if something is above them. If for no other reason, they are well aware these days that they are closely watched, and it is a reason for instant dismissal. Yes, the odd "flogging" happens, but the odd flogging happens with mechanics in their 30's and 40's too. Years ago, one in their 40's gave a previous car of mine a speed camera fine!!!
Just like this forum, it only takes a few d!ckheads to sully the reputation of something...

[Excellent]

'cept in the case I noted, Ford fitted over-lengthed bolts yet they are treating each incident on a case by case basis instead of notifying owners of potential issues to replace all bolts with revised ones.

Ford don't stand by their products as well as Holden in my opinion. That's the reason why I won't get a Ford no matter how good people tell me they are. It's not badge snobbery, it's just heeding the numerous warning signals.

[vecommo]

That is typical of Ford. They sweep life threatening safety issues under the carpet, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to act on a minor issue such as overlength bolts.
Holden definitely stand by their product far better than Ford. (Probably because they have a far better product to stand by). I know so many people that have been burnt so severely by the Ford brand that they will never ever go back.

[GODSMACK]

I know so many people that have been burnt so severely by the Ford brand that they will never ever go back.
Im sure that is the case with many makes, not just Ford. maybe even Holden would you believe??????? Get outta here!!!! Seriously???? :1peek:

[Party Pete]

It is understandable that people on a Holden forum will be a bit biased from time to time but suggesting that there are no ex-Holden owners who have had a bad experience and will never buy one again is complete denial. It won't take much of a search about the current Statesman in these forums to find a few owners who have said they will never buy a Holden again. Does that mean all Holden's are dogs too?

Back to the original topic though, it may be old but they have made it pretty effective over the years. It's no Ferrari engine but I imagine it is a bit cheaper to make. A bit like the LSX engines actually.

[vecommo]

suggesting that there are no ex-Holden owners who have had a bad experience and will never buy one again is complete denial.

Please point out exactly where that suggestion was made.

[Ghia351]

'cept in the case I noted, Ford fitted over-lengthed bolts yet they are treating each incident on a case by case basis instead of notifying owners of potential issues to replace all bolts with revised ones.

Ford don't stand by their products as well as Holden in my opinion. That's the reason why I won't get a Ford no matter how good people tell me they are. It's not badge snobbery, it's just heeding the numerous warning signals.I guess all those early LS1 owners that argued long and hard to convince dealer service rooms around the country their cars were "noisy" and excessively used oil might think otherwise. Individual owners/cars were treated case by case. At least an over length bolt can be physically measured in minutes and not subject to opinion.

[Party Pete]

Holden definitely stand by their product far better than Ford. (Probably because they have a far better product to stand by). I know so many people that have been burnt so severely by the Ford brand that they will never ever go back.

That seems to me to be suggesting that owners never wanting to go back to the brand is a unique Ford problem. All I am saying is that there are plenty of owners from both camps, which is a failure of both brands in so far as the problems existed in the first place and the dealer network couldn't fix the problems. I personally had this exact experience with an XR6 in 1995 and swore never to buy a Ford again. However, I bought a Territory and it was faultless. I haven't had any real problems with 4 Holdens in a row either. But, searching around this forum alone shows that Holden certainly sells some dogs and when push comes to shove their dealer network gets it wrong sometimes too. Not good, but as also been pointed out, there have been some very unhappy Mercedes owners too.

[Excellent]

I guess all those early LS1 owners that argued long and hard to convince dealer service rooms around the country their cars were "noisy" and excessively used oil might think otherwise. Individual owners/cars were treated case by case. At least an over length bolt can be physically measured in minutes and not subject to opinion.

Christ you Ford fans are over-sensitive bastards.

You always have to draw a comparison with issues that are non-Ford related to support Ford's less than impressive recent record of ignoring the customer's plight. Some saftey related issues come to mind, others, just crap customer service. You could point the finger at Holden's issues and laugh, but then again, that wouldn't make Ford's issues look decidely better.

Mass producing an all alloy engine like the GenIII is vastly different to selecting the right sized bolts for an inline 6 timing cover, I dare say. Nice to know you can draw on a valid comparison, Ghia351. In any case, considering VE is a ground up design, I think Holden have done a reasonable job with VE's launch. Sure, there have been issues, no doubt, but Holden's safety related issues were well handled, unlike Ford's.

You can get as defensive as you want, Ghia351. It doesn't solve anything. Personally, I wouldn't touch any of Ford's products if their recent spate of denials (safety and quality) is any guide. I wonder how many potential customers feel the same way as I do?

Of course, you wouldn't dare criticise anything Ford related as that would be too sacreligious. Better to bring up some of Holden's past problems as it's more important to level an argument.

[fatbob]

Honestly - why do you all bother.
Its actually an interesting topic - do you all think there is the slightest chance that we could find out about turbo reliability from this thread or none ?

[Torxteer]

Honestly - why do you all bother.
Its actually an interesting topic - do you all think there is the slightest chance that we could find out about turbo reliability from this thread or none ?

:rofl: Im wondering why this thread is even in a Holden forum. Should of been asked over at AFF.

[Ellistwo]

:rofl: Im wondering why this thread is even in a Holden forum. Should of been asked over at AFF.

Yes but if the original question:


Father-in-law purchased a brand new FG Turbo ute on last week's Wednesday. Took it for a spin for around 50 klms (spirited driving but definitely not overdoing it) and the engine started to sound rattly and run rough. The car was towed back to the dealer and they rang him up last night and said that it had spun a bearing and the entire engine will be replaced?? Surely this is not normal but I'm wondering if there are others who have had a dud FG?

had been asked at you know where, the monosyllabic silver backs would deny it happened at all, that the OP was Ford bashing and the thread would have devolved into a mud slinging attack on all things Holden with copious talk of bogans, torque, torque, torque, bogans, torque. There is only so much advice you can get from a parrot, before you realise he has no idea what he's saying.

At least here the OP got an answer, the Ford fans are generally amused and polite and vecommo gets to vent his spleen.

[NODDY347]

Post #101, the very best in this thread.:rofl:

[Torxteer]

attack on all things Holden with copious talk of bogans, torque, torque, torque, bogans, torque


Im a Ford man but that did make me laugh

[vecommo]

That seems to me to be suggesting that owners never wanting to go back to the brand is a unique Ford problem.

Of course it isn't a unique Ford problem, I have never thought that for a second, but from what I have seen, heard and read, I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a far higher percentage of dissatisfied Ford owners compared to Holden owners, especially when you take into consideration that there have been a lot more Holdens sold in Australia than Fords.
Putting all the cases I have personsally witnessed aside, you only have to look at the ratio of complaints on various automotive forums, consumer websites and blogs. Tales of woe from Ford owners fill the letters columns of the cars guide in the newspaper every week, while the occasional Holden complaint pops up every now and again. What's that telling you?
As for treatment of customers, there are terrible dealerships within both brands, but once again, my observations indicate that Ford dealers are far more arrogant, incompetent and unwilling to address customer issues.
More importantly, it's how the companies themselves, rather than the dealerships, treat the customer, which to me highlights the differences between the two.
Holden has always acted promptly to address any safety issues by immediately issuing recalls for the most trivial of safety related faults.
Ford on the other hand, treats their customers with such contempt that they put people's safety in jeopardy by waiting years to issue a recall on Territory brake failures and only did so due to pressure from the media. There have been a significant amount of reports of identical failures on falcons however this recall is yet to happen.
What about the mugs that paid $50K for a Territory that are now too scared to drive them because the front suspension could collapse at any time due to a fundamental design fault? Owners have reported that they have to replace their ball joints/control arms every 20-30,000km at $800 a pop, making it a very expensive car to maintain once out of warranty. Sure, they have modified the design on the latest model, but that is no comfort for the thousands of Territory owners out there who are driving ticking time bombs because there is effectively no fix for the issue.
Then there are the rust issues. Marin Burela, when questioned by the Cars Guide, had the audacity to state that this was only a small issue confined to cars in close proximity to the coast. This, despite owners with the issue living in inland areas more than 200km from the nearest coast. What about the brand new Territories at the motor show with clearly evident rust? Have they ever been near the coast? Just another example of Ford's ignorance, arrogance, denial and contempt for the customer.

Holden may have their faults and are not perfect by any means, however they come up smelling like roses in comparison. There are plenty of complaints from VE owners on this forum, however the majority of them seem to centre around electrical issues such as flat batteries and other relatively minor-moderate faults which are to be expected from an all new platform.
Ford has no excuse, as the FG is more or less the same thing they've been building since 2002, so all bugs should have been ironed out by now. How they could put the wrong bolts in an engine they've been building for 7 years is beyond me.

As for FG reliability, I think it is too early to make any definite judgement, however you only have to look at the BA and Territory as an indicator. These cars were so highly praised and awarded, yet after a few years they have shown their true colours - they are poorly designed and built lemons. The FG comes from the same factory and was designed built by the same people, so the best advice I can offer is to give them a wide berth.

[windsorace]

Of course it isn't a unique Ford problem, I have never thought that for a second, but from what I have seen, heard and read, I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a far higher percentage of dissatisfied Ford owners compared to Holden owners, especially when you take into consideration that there have been a lot more Holdens sold in Australia than Fords.
Putting all the cases I have personsally witnessed aside, you only have to look at the ratio of complaints on various automotive forums, consumer websites and blogs. Tales of woe from Ford owners fill the letters columns of the cars guide in the newspaper every week, while the occasional Holden complaint pops up every now and again. What's that telling you?
As for treatment of customers, there are terrible dealerships within both brands, but once again, my observations indicate that Ford dealers are far more arrogant, incompetent and unwilling to address customer issues.
More importantly, it's how the companies themselves, rather than the dealerships, treat the customer, which to me highlights the differences between the two.
Holden has always acted promptly to address any safety issues by immediately issuing recalls for the most trivial of safety related faults.
Ford on the other hand, treats their customers with such contempt that they put people's safety in jeopardy by waiting years to issue a recall on Territory brake failures and only did so due to pressure from the media. There have been a significant amount of reports of identical failures on falcons however this recall is yet to happen.
What about the mugs that paid $50K for a Territory that are now too scared to drive them because the front suspension could collapse at any time due to a fundamental design fault? Owners have reported that they have to replace their ball joints/control arms every 20-30,000km at $800 a pop, making it a very expensive car to maintain once out of warranty. Sure, they have modified the design on the latest model, but that is no comfort for the thousands of Territory owners out there who are driving ticking time bombs because there is effectively no fix for the issue.
Then there are the rust issues. Marin Burela, when questioned by the Cars Guide, had the audacity to state that this was only a small issue confined to cars in close proximity to the coast. This, despite owners with the issue living in inland areas more than 200km from the nearest coast. What about the brand new Territories at the motor show with clearly evident rust? Have they ever been near the coast? Just another example of Ford's ignorance, arrogance, denial and contempt for the customer.

Holden may have their faults and are not perfect by any means, however they come up smelling like roses in comparison. There are plenty of complaints from VE owners on this forum, however the majority of them seem to centre around electrical issues such as flat batteries and other relatively minor-moderate faults which are to be expected from an all new platform.
Ford has no excuse, as the FG is more or less the same thing they've been building since 2002, so all bugs should have been ironed out by now. How they could put the wrong bolts in an engine they've been building for 7 years is beyond me.

As for FG reliability, I think it is too early to make any definite judgement, however you only have to look at the BA and Territory as an indicator. These cars were so highly praised and awarded, yet after a few years they have shown their true colours - they are poorly designed and built lemons. The FG comes from the same factory and was designed built by the same people, so the best advice I can offer is to give them a wide berth.
As usual another factual insight into the world that is VECOMMO!
You think if your company only built one platform they should be able to get it right!

VEcommo =::jerk::jerk:jerk::limpy::feedtroll:

[nang3]

By popular public opinion, very true.
But, the current gun mechanics were often a previous generation's pimply faced, car flogging apprentices living a wet dream too... :teach:
It is unwise to label most current apprentices as car thrashing hoons though. Most treat customers cars with respect and ask senior experienced staff for help if something is above them. If for no other reason, they are well aware these days that they are closely watched, and it is a reason for instant dismissal. Yes, the odd "flogging" happens, but the odd flogging happens with mechanics in their 30's and 40's too. Years ago, one in their 40's gave a previous car of mine a speed camera fine!!!
Just like this forum, it only takes a few d!ckheads to sully the reputation of something...

thats very true mate, i shouldnt assume all apprentices/young mechanics are thrashing hoons and yeh it just takes a couple of horror stories to tar everyone with the same brush.

ROFL maybe ACA/TT has brainwashed me into thinking everyone is a HOON until proven innocent hahaha..
Im just lucky my mechanic is a mates old man who i've known for years and isnt into performance cars so he has no interest in thrashing mine.. in fact i dont think hes ever even driven it as theres no real reason to for a normal service if i dont have any issues with the car.

Come to think of it, salesmen are probably the worst for thrashing cold cars... in one week i looked at a VZ R8, GT-P and 350z and when taken for a test drive - EVERY one of the salesmen literally flogged the fark out of it straight from the dealership on an ice cold motor!!!
at the end of the drive i told them, no way in hell would i buy this particular vehicle after seeing that and they just shrugged


Im sure that is the case with many makes, not just Ford. maybe even Holden would you believe??????? Get outta here!!!! Seriously???? :1peek:

Exactly, happens with all makes !!!

I said the same about Nissan after my 1st Skyline which parts were costing an arm and a leg at the time .. which i replaced with a Nissan Patrol shortly after haha.. then another Patrol then a 350z !!

[VXSS346]

Of course it isn't a unique Ford problem, I have never thought that for a second, but from what I have seen, heard and read, I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a far higher percentage of dissatisfied Ford owners compared to Holden owners, especially when you take into consideration that there have been a lot more Holdens sold in Australia than Fords.
Putting all the cases I have personsally witnessed aside, you only have to look at the ratio of complaints on various automotive forums, consumer websites and blogs. Tales of woe from Ford owners fill the letters columns of the cars guide in the newspaper every week, while the occasional Holden complaint pops up every now and again. What's that telling you?
As for treatment of customers, there are terrible dealerships within both brands, but once again, my observations indicate that Ford dealers are far more arrogant, incompetent and unwilling to address customer issues.
More importantly, it's how the companies themselves, rather than the dealerships, treat the customer, which to me highlights the differences between the two.
Holden has always acted promptly to address any safety issues by immediately issuing recalls for the most trivial of safety related faults.
Ford on the other hand, treats their customers with such contempt that they put people's safety in jeopardy by waiting years to issue a recall on Territory brake failures and only did so due to pressure from the media. There have been a significant amount of reports of identical failures on falcons however this recall is yet to happen.
What about the mugs that paid $50K for a Territory that are now too scared to drive them because the front suspension could collapse at any time due to a fundamental design fault? Owners have reported that they have to replace their ball joints/control arms every 20-30,000km at $800 a pop, making it a very expensive car to maintain once out of warranty. Sure, they have modified the design on the latest model, but that is no comfort for the thousands of Territory owners out there who are driving ticking time bombs because there is effectively no fix for the issue.
Then there are the rust issues. Marin Burela, when questioned by the Cars Guide, had the audacity to state that this was only a small issue confined to cars in close proximity to the coast. This, despite owners with the issue living in inland areas more than 200km from the nearest coast. What about the brand new Territories at the motor show with clearly evident rust? Have they ever been near the coast? Just another example of Ford's ignorance, arrogance, denial and contempt for the customer.

Holden may have their faults and are not perfect by any means, however they come up smelling like roses in comparison. There are plenty of complaints from VE owners on this forum, however the majority of them seem to centre around electrical issues such as flat batteries and other relatively minor-moderate faults which are to be expected from an all new platform.
Ford has no excuse, as the FG is more or less the same thing they've been building since 2002, so all bugs should have been ironed out by now. How they could put the wrong bolts in an engine they've been building for 7 years is beyond me.

As for FG reliability, I think it is too early to make any definite judgement, however you only have to look at the BA and Territory as an indicator. These cars were so highly praised and awarded, yet after a few years they have shown their true colours - they are poorly designed and built lemons. The FG comes from the same factory and was designed built by the same people, so the best advice I can offer is to give them a wide berth.

:rofl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::rofl:

What a waste of internet bandwidth :rolleyes:

[Mikey]

Holden has always acted promptly to address any safety issues by immediately issuing recalls for the most trivial of safety related faults..I always read VECOMMO's posts with a grain of salt really, but I do find them very entertaining sometimes! But, I can't believe that I actually agree with him (her???) (sorry VECOMMO) on this. How many criticised Holden for the small number of recalls on the early VE claiming that after a billion $$$ they should of got it right by nowt! But Holden recalled away anyway and copped it sweet.

If FORD do not seem to have any or very little recalls, then, is this a yard stick for quality control?, well after constantly reading about FORD putting its head in the sand, well clearly not.

[Peter B - CV8]

:rofl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::rofl:

What a waste of internet bandwidth :rolleyes:

Actually I found his post fairly accurate - having experienced the joys of dealing with both Ford & Holden.

[Ghia351]

Christ you Ford fans are over-sensitive bastards.

You always have to draw a comparison with issues that are non-Ford related to support Ford's less than impressive recent record of ignoring the customer's plight. Some saftey related issues come to mind, others, just crap customer service. You could point the finger at Holden's issues and laugh, but then again, that wouldn't make Ford's issues look decidely better.

Mass producing an all alloy engine like the GenIII is vastly different to selecting the right sized bolts for an inline 6 timing cover, I dare say. Nice to know you can draw on a valid comparison, Ghia351. In any case, considering VE is a ground up design, I think Holden have done a reasonable job with VE's launch. Sure, there have been issues, no doubt, but Holden's safety related issues were well handled, unlike Ford's.

You can get as defensive as you want, Ghia351. It doesn't solve anything. Personally, I wouldn't touch any of Ford's products if their recent spate of denials (safety and quality) is any guide. I wonder how many potential customers feel the same way as I do?

Of course, you wouldn't dare criticise anything Ford related as that would be too sacreligious. Better to bring up some of Holden's past problems as it's more important to level an argument.My POINT was all warranty is case by case, nothing to do with comparing vehicle quality.

Why would I come on here and criticise Ford when my own personal dealings have been good. I'll leave the Ford bashing to others better qualified. And as far as I can remember I try to avoid any direct Holden product bashing as that would be like a red rag to a bull. Although the camira would be an easy target. Unlike others who claim to become physically sick when they enter a Ford car, I actually make a point of hiring Holdens when on holidays as I get a good week to 10 days behind the wheel and over 1000km of experience. Last Xmas was on Hamilton Island and Holden don't make golf buggies.

PS. If you must know I did have a major drama with my G6ET after it's 15,000km service done this morning. My glove box lid is warped and the inside light won't go off with the lid closed....back next week when to new lid arrives.



Putting all the cases I have personsally witnessed aside, you only have to look at the ratio of complaints on various automotive forums, consumer websites and blogs. Tales of woe from Ford owners fill the letters columns of the cars guide in the newspaper every week, while the occasional Holden complaint pops up every now and again. What's that telling you?Lol, that Graham Smith ( the journo of this feedback section) is a former Holden employee, (not your dad by any chance) although he staggered me last week when he wrote he owns an XW GTHO. Did you know that he met the Ford pres who asked Smith to collate all the letters that he received on Territory issues so that he would handle their concerns directly. Smith failed to mention this part, quite conveniantely. YES Ford dropped the ball and their cost cutting drive in some areas was, in hindsight, wrong. However it seems whenene an Australian runs the place it performs better and I can tell you know many things behind the scenes have changed for the better. The fact marketing has picked up is one more obvious change.

[Excellent]

Ghia351, I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I can't stand either Holden bashers or Ford bashers. What good does it achieve?

No, I'm not asking you to criticise your ride. Surely even you would know that Ford have had many recent quality issues regardless whether Graham Smith did/didn't provide Ford data.

Brake issues on Falcons made it to talk-back radio, ball joints on Territories as reported in the papers (come on, you aren't suggesting the Carsguide reports were made up?) which forced Ford to redesign it, and as mentioned in the thread on the subject of the leaking oil from the timing cover, Ford have stopped using gaskets to save some money... is what one member (employee?) reported. Yes problems happen from time to time for all car makes but it's the way Ford are perceived to respond to the numerous complaints that has me concerned.

As I said, as good as the Fords are to drive, I'm just content not to own one at this stage. That's just me. I'd feel way more comfortable behind the wheel of the Lion brand even if Holden have some minor quality issues of their own to contend with (flat batteries, is that a thing of the past, yet?).

[Ghia351]

Ghia351, I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I can't stand either Holden bashers or Ford bashers. What good does it achieve?

No, I'm not asking you to criticise your ride. Surely even you would know that Ford have had many recent quality issues regardless whether Graham Smith did/didn't provide Ford data.

Brake issues on Falcons made it to talk-back radio, ball joints on Territories as reported in the papers (come on, you aren't suggesting the Carsguide reports were made up?) which forced Ford to redesign it, and as mentioned in the thread on the subject of the leaking oil from the timing cover, Ford have stopped using gaskets to save some money... is what one member (employee?) reported. Yes problems happen from time to time for all car makes but it's the way Ford are perceived to respond to the numerous complaints that has me concerned.

As I said, as good as the Fords are to drive, I'm just content not to own one at this stage. That's just me. I'd feel way more comfortable behind the wheel of the Lion brand even if Holden have some minor quality issues of their own to contend with (flat batteries, is that a thing of the past, yet?).No, of course the reports were never made up, in fact I emailed Smith to ask how many complaints in total he received...he never replied back. My point was the man at the top took personal responsibility and no mention was made of the level of concern being shown by the manufacturer. In fact the impression that Ford isn't dealing with it or hiding hoping it goes away, is counter to the truth and Smith's own dealings with management. As to Carsguide forcing a redesign, there is now way in hell such a component could be changed, validated and released for production incorporation in the time frame we are talking. In fact money is so tight for both locals we'll see more of "alternate" upgrading, eg: engines, components one time and body the next. The VE is case in point, engines/powertrain and some spec changes this year and body changes next year.

I will add, you're one nut (in a polite way) that Ford will never crack. Holden have a greater and more loyal/forgiving base/. They will accept more from Holden then Ford buyers will accept from Ford. It's the nature of our market and can't be changed. The theory was if the AU had of been an actual Holden Commodore instead how many Holden buyers would have jumped ship and bought a Ford. Far less then happened the other way.

Sorry for going o/t, but I can't be bothered visiting some clients.

[AndrewR8]

I can't believe this thread is still going...in all seriousness they are a reliable vehicle, look around. I know people with several BA and BF's that are still going well, the FG is only an evolution from that. A guy I work with has a new FG F6, the car is great, yeah its got its little niggly issues but so does my VE R8 and the VE SS I had was shocking for a new car, battery problems, electrical problems, auto issues etc but I expected it. They are both very similar vehicles Holden's and Fords and have and will continue to have issues. Its part of owning an aussie vehicle.

All that is expressed on forums are the negative, bad experiences and problems that SOME owners have. Explore the Holden or Ford Forums and there are issues on both but im sure there are lots of members who have great fords or holdens.

Both makes are good and both makes are not good, to say one is better than the other is rubbish, my VE R8 has issues in my opinion and is not the best built vehicle but I accept that from Holden/HSV.

[planetdavo]

...and as mentioned in the thread on the subject of the leaking oil from the timing cover, Ford have stopped using gaskets to save some money... is what one member (employee?) reported.
I would take any claims like this with a grain of salt Excellent.
Many Jap engines are particularly oil tight, yet look up numerous gaskets for the engine (regularly sump, timing cover, rear main plate and other smaller ones), and they all steer you to a tube of three-bond...

[seldo]

*Sigh*....
Fact is, our local cars, Ford and Holden, are actually pretty well built, especially considering the price.
If I had the time I could relate some stories of my mate's series of total disasters with, not just one, but several absolute top-end BMWs - 2 x 750Li, 650, and a 540... Total disasters, to the point that they actually bought the last one back again after less than 12 months....
He now drives Benzes...

[fatbob]

Its really hard - but if you wade through the piles of verbage - there is actually some facts in there - really, and interesting facts. The verbage does give a smile though - this thread has been so much fun to read sometimes.
Except where someone is personally attacked for their opinion.
Which is regular on this thread.

[Ellistwo]

.............. The theory was if the AU had of been an actual Holden Commodore instead how many Holden buyers would have jumped ship and bought a Ford. Far less then happened the other way.

............

Ooooh ......I dunno, the AU would have won first prize in a super mega fugly contest hands down, with the Elephant Man running a distant second. I reckon there wouldn't have been any need to jump ship, it would have sunk itself down to the gunwales to hide the shame.

[sld86]

RDP mackays fg xr6t ran 10.99 at willowbank last night, seen the timeslip today and i dont think theyve had any problems with it

[planetdavo]

Ooooh ......I dunno, the AU would have won first prize in a super mega fugly contest hands down, with the Elephant Man running a distant second. I reckon there wouldn't have been any need to jump ship, it would have sunk itself down to the gunwales to hide the shame.
Go over to the E2 HSV thread.
You'd reckon the AU has some serious competition, reading some of the posts...

[Ghia351]

Ooooh ......I dunno, the AU would have won first prize in a super mega fugly contest hands down, with the Elephant Man running a distant second. I reckon there wouldn't have been any need to jump ship, it would have sunk itself down to the gunwales to hide the shame.
Lol, not if I bring along a Ssangyong Stavic http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=ssangyong+stavic&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=d_mMSozCDor26gO09cy4Cg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5

[Ellistwo]

Eeeouch, my eyes, my eyes! Are magic mushrooms a Korean food staple?

[Party Pete]

The really sad thing about this thread is that people are defending poor build quality in both brands by reference to the faults of the other. Maybe it is these faults which are considered part of owning an Australian car which is making people switch to Japanese cars. I'm not trying to start another sh*t fight but the bad stories about the VE Commodores, together with the general impression I get from the interior that a lot of the fixtures are cheap and nasty, is the only reason I haven't bought one.

[Excellent]

The really sad thing about this thread is that people are defending poor build quality in both brands by reference to the faults of the other. Maybe it is these faults which are considered part of owning an Australian car which is making people switch to Japanese cars. I'm not trying to start another sh*t fight but the bad stories about the VE Commodores, together with the general impression I get from the interior that a lot of the fixtures are cheap and nasty, is the only reason I haven't bought one.

I've already given Ford a miss but I also haven't jumped on the Holden bandwagon just yet either. The crap auto and battery gremlins have given me good reason to wait for the next model. The VE is a muscular design that's aging well but it's in need of a refresh both inside and out (front - headlights/grille/bar, rear - taillights/bar).

It really is sad that Holden have released the VE with such a poorly calibrated auto and the battery issues should have been addressed within a few months from official release. Why does it take Holden years to resolve these issues?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much but I doubt these kinds of issues would appear in too many Japanese makes.

[troytroy]

...to be honest, they're are issues with the Japanese cars too. In fact as long as they're is human involvement in the production of parts, there will be inconsistancies. You don't hear as much about Japanese car defects because there is far less consumer involvement (read: fanaticism) in they're feedback in terms of forums, media sites etc compared to local manufacturers.

Anyone visited the devoted hotly visited Mazda 3 or Camry website?

Although, as a generalisation, Mazda, Toyota, Honda etc have built fairly accurate reputations as being reliable and consistant manfuacturers.

Would I stop myself from buying local because of some possible minor warranty issue.....probably not, if it met every other consumer/value requirement.

[Party Pete]

I agree to some extent and frankly I don't would want to meet someone who is a member of a Toyota Camry forum, or even worse a Prius forum. But, having said that I have never met anyone who has owned a Japanese car who has had a horror story. In fact, very much the opposite, and I believe that this is very much part of the reason that the Japanese makers have done so much damage to the US and Australian car manufacturing industries. Back to the topic of this thread, I hope the I6 turbo is reliable, because I'd like Holden to keep on trying to improve the Commodore rather than just rest in its laurels having no real competition.

[Ellistwo]

...to be honest, they're are issues with the Japanese cars too. .

yes it's Japan's version of sixth sigma ......wabi sabi.

In the 1970's Australian manufacturers spent inordinate sums of money, employed counter insurgency experts and ASIO to find out why the yellow peril Japanese car industry could produce vehicles that started in the morning and had electric aerials as standard. They discovered a secret samurai parchment with the words wabi and sabi and declared them to mean :- make sure you build in some insidious faults to make lots of money with consequent repairs and service. The Australian auto industry is nothing if it isn't adaptive.

[nang3]

Ooooh ......I dunno, the AU would have won first prize in a super mega fugly contest hands down, with the Elephant Man running a distant second. I reckon there wouldn't have been any need to jump ship, it would have sunk itself down to the gunwales to hide the shame.

mwahaha i'd have to agree with you there!! especially with the double rear spoiler option on the AU XR's mwahaha who the fark would option that !!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/1999_Ford_AU_Falcon_XR8_02.jpg/180px-1999_Ford_AU_Falcon_XR8_02.jpg

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i23/2370_6lo.jpg


Lol, not if I bring along a Ssangyong Stavic http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=ssangyong+stavic&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=d_mMSozCDor26gO09cy4Cg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5

I'll see your stavic and raise you a whatever the fark this is from Ssyangyong too.. reminds me of a big fat white pointer haha

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ssangyong-tradie.jpg


I agree to some extent and frankly I don't would want to meet someone who is a member of a Toyota Camry forum, or even worse a Prius forum. But, having said that I have never met anyone who has owned a Japanese car who has had a horror story. In fact, very much the opposite, and I believe that this is very much part of the reason that the Japanese makers have done so much damage to the US and Australian car manufacturing industries. Back to the topic of this thread, I hope the I6 turbo is reliable, because I'd like Holden to keep on trying to improve the Commodore rather than just rest in its laurels having no real competition.

mate the Prius forums are farken hilarious - they list floor mats as mods etc... the thread about some Prius douche beating a mustang is the best haha.. farken dreamers!!

[Mikey]

The crap auto and battery gremlins have given me good reason to wait for the next model.

It really is sad that Holden have released the VE with such a poorly calibrated auto and the battery issues should have been addressed within a few months from official release. Why does it take Holden years to resolve these issues?Don't let this stop you, I know some here have suffered battery problems and whinge about the auto, but I have a Nov 06 R8 A6 and I have never had a single battery issue. I am still on the same battery 50,000 kms later. This does not dismiss those that have had real problems with their batteries, but actually personally, I do not know anyone who has. I would not even know about the problem if I hadn't read about it here first.

The Auto is not as bad as some say either, although just like anything, there is still room for further development and improvement though. But let me tell you from over 2 1/2 years experience, when cruising around, you would not feel much difference from any other 4 5 or 6 speed. If you push it then sometimes you can confuse it, but it is really not as bad as some people make you believe. (I actually think that the electronic throttle body is causing most of it) There is no point comparing it to the ZF 6 box as there is no doubt that that box is better, but the GM box is not that bad either. Of course this does not include anybody that may have had real problems with their A6, but for me, I have had no issues with mine.

Also I think like anything, it doesn’t seem to take long before some smarties in the aftermarket write better programs for them anyway. We all accept that a tune is good value, well maybe an auto tune to your liking is not a bad option for you as well.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much but I doubt these kinds of issues would appear in too many Japanese makes.No you are not expecting too much to expect some sort of reliable quality from our aussie built rockets, but I think that owners of Camry's and Mazda 3's might be expecting too much if they expected 13 second passes straight out of the box too!

[Excellent]

Don't let this stop you, I know some here have suffered battery problems and whinge about the auto, but I have a Nov 06 R8 A6 and I have never had a single battery issue. I am still on the same battery 50,000 kms later. This does not dismiss those that have had real problems with their batteries, but actually personally, I do not know anyone who has. I would not even know about the problem if I hadn't read about it here first.

The Auto is not as bad as some say either, although just like anything, there is still room for further development and improvement though. But let me tell you from over 2 1/2 years experience, when cruising around, you would not feel much difference from any other 4 5 or 6 speed. If you push it then sometimes you can confuse it, but it is really not as bad as some people make you believe. (I actually think that the electronic throttle body is causing most of it) There is no point comparing it to the ZF 6 box as there is no doubt that that box is better, but the GM box is not that bad either. Of course this does not include anybody that may have had real problems with their A6, but for me, I have had no issues with mine.

Also I think like anything, it doesn’t seem to take long before some smarties in the aftermarket write better programs for them anyway. We all accept that a tune is good value, well maybe an auto tune to your liking is not a bad option for you as well.
No you are not expecting too much to expect some sort of reliable quality from our aussie built rockets, but I think that owners of Camry's and Mazda 3's might be expecting too much if they expected 13 second passes straight out of the box too!

It's posts like yours Mikey that make me glad I joined this forum. Thanks for your informed opinion. :)

To be honest, I didn't find any issues with the auto when I test drove an SS about a month ago. Though, I do realise it's different to live with an auto than it is to just test drive it so I'm thinking that's where most of the issues crop up in the comments.

Don't worry, I'm still around and still shopping! ;)

[fatbob]

Don't hold your breath waiting for someone to start a thread titled "what an excellent auto" or anything else thats good by the way.... rarely do people say when things are good, except in response to people saying they're bad. Mostly people say things are bad - its more ... newsworthy ?
( generalisation - no need to point out examples where this is inaccurate - its just true most of the time )

[stu-k]

Haven`t had any probs with my battery yet either and the car sometimes doesn't get started for 2 weeks.
As for the auto I find it good, but like anything on your car it can be improved..power,brakes, suspension, wheels etc. We all like to do mods but really the auto is fine in my 09 apart from its cold flaring thing, but thats gone after 2 or 3 gear changes and I always take it easy when its cold so no biggie.