NSW to seek a mandatory rear fog lamp ADR

[keepleft]

NSW Government, via its "Centre for Road Safety" and following advocacy:-), is to ask the "Australian Motor Vehicle Certification Board", a committee administered by the Federal Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, with representation from road and transport regulators from all states and territories, to effectively mandate that the rear fog lamp function be a *required* item on all new-market motor vehicle entries.

I would safely signal cross-party support for the measure in NSW.

This would mean action against current ADR 13, Part 8.5.1 which 'optionalises' the otherwise International 'mandatory' source design rule, "UNECE 38".

This dumbing-down of an international safety related design rule by existing ADR 13 Part 8.5.1 - is in my mind negligent, and perhaps actionable.

It would mean that no longer can a manufacturer skimp out by deleted the function, say halfway through their model run - to save a few dollars, as the item would be required *as standard* on ALL NEW cars, vans, 4wd (MA, MB, MC). NOT vehicles currently registered.

NSW Fire Brigade (18+ years) and more recently NSW RFS fire fighting units have a mandatory rear fog requirement; bushfire smoke conditions, rain, fog etc.

I'll seek additional information to see if we'll extend the mandatory adoption to heavy vehicles, buses and the like. My intention would be 'yes'.

I'd suggest we'd be seeing an enforcement program in regards the correct and appropriate use of the lamp.

I've posted a similar detailed thread at Boostcruising:-
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=450922



To quote Athol Mullen, NSW Certifying Engineer on the subject
The 12-pin trailer connector is documented in ADR 42/... along with the 7-pin. The 12-pin is an extension of the "Britax" inline 7-pin type. One of the extra pins is for the rear fog light circuit. A move to mandatory rear fogs would also require a move to make the 12-pin trailer connector compulsory, including wiring of the rear fog light into that connector.

One of the other pins on the 12-pin is a larger diameter earth pin, which is in addition to the small one in the original 7-pin section. This addresses the most common trailer wiring problem, a poor earth connection, so rear fogs are not the only reason to implement this.

As I said in my blog, we also need to address misuse of front and rear fog lights. Misuse will impair acceptance.




More detail later:-




Purchase a hazard-warning triangle for your car to improve the ‘warning-time’ given to approaching traffic at both crash scenes and vehicle breakdowns. Store it in the boot. I suggest Hella Part No. 2901 - $70; a World/Euro standard triangle exceeding AS3790 triangle performance requirements. http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/lic_drivesafe4.pdf

[Peter B - CV8]

God I hope they don't introduce this. It's bad enough having to put up with wankers using their fog lights unnecessarily - now we get to be irritated when following them also.

[VX2VESS]

God I hope they don't introduce this. It's bad enough having to put up with wankers using their fog lights unnecessarily - now we get to be irritated when following them also.


like excel drivers who leave them on

[ti0350]

like excel drivers who leave them on

Yep exactly..

[Marco]

This is a good idea. I went from having rear fogs but no fronts on my TS, to having front fogs and no rears on the VE. The front fogs are of marginal usefulness, but there were plenty of times that it was a good idea to use the rears.

[keepleft]

By mandating rear fog lamps on new market cars et al, we introduce a greater number of people who will then access the device, so 'ignorance' of the item and their mis-use should also *reduce* as folk begin to understand the ISO symbols for front and rear fogs.

The rear fog lamps are not just for 'heavy fog', they WERE in fact mandated in Germany and France back in 1973/4 to aid cars regular taillights in being seen under daylight rain conditions. Add bushfire smoke, dustorms, heavy fog, snowfall, gravel roads et al.

Introduction, will also prevent "multi-combination" rear lamps that have a rear fog compartment, from having that compartment wired up, in contravention of ADR49 - as 'extra brake lights', with the effect of two levels of brake-light performance. (Note to caravan/coach builders).

Optionalising rear fog lamp (under ADR 13) was just plain DUMB.

I would intend for NSW to raise the existing fine for mis-using front and rear fog lamps from $70+ to around the $160 mark AND issue two demerits! That is for a Committee to study.

Don't blame the light.


Purchase a hazard-warning triangle for your car to improve the ‘warning-time’ given to approaching traffic at both crash scenes and vehicle breakdowns. Store it in the boot. I suggest Hella Part No. 2901 - $70; a World/Euro standard triangle exceeding AS3790 triangle performance requirements. http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/lic_drivesafe4.pdf

[Big_Valven]

I like the idea, but as with any speed limit change, law change, penalty change, or anything of that matter recently, I would like more evidence that this move is one which will advantage road users... how much rear fog lights can reduce accidents (fully qualified of course including at what point they become useful.)

I am not by any means saying they wouldn't be a good thing, but government/police have had it far too easy to simply make changes saying that it will make our roads safer, without actually justifying or explaining their actions. (Restricting the NT roads is one classic example.) After all, accountability encourages respect, and respect means the effectiveness of the changes are likely to be easier seen.

[calais190]

I admit I have my foglights and parkers on every time I drive. And it's simply because I find it broadens road user awarness. My car is Odyssey in colour, and at dusk and dawn, it is a difficult colour to see. I use my foglights and and parkers (and therefore rear lights) to ensure people can see me on the road. From personal experience, the times I have not had my foglights on, there have been a few situations where other individuals changed lanes while i was almost right next to them. Because of this, my foglights stay on (especially for local driving, freeway I will turn them off during the day) even on a bright sunny day. I also find not matter the conditions of the day, but especially on a bright and sunny day, foglights are barely a distraction. They're almost unoticeable in full sunlight. Rear foglights would probably add to on road awareness, as long as they're not as bright as those hideous excel ones.

[ti0350]

got stuck behind and excell on the way to work today even in the day time the rear foggie is annoying..
I hardly ever use my foggies dont really see a lot of fog where I live I will however put them on in heavy rain at night. My cars black and I think that some people do have probs seeing my car at dusk and dawn so put my headlights on usually fixes that.

[popeye3dr]

got stuck behind and excell on the way to work today even in the day time the rear foggie is annoying..
I hardly ever use my foggies dont really see a lot of fog where I live I will however put them on in heavy rain at night. My cars black and I think that some people do have probs seeing my car at dusk and dawn so put my headlights on usually fixes that.
Being a Pom, i can tell you that is the worse time to put them on, they might be able to see you better but it's also blinding.
Only time they should be used is if you can't see 100 metres in front of you in fog or smoke

[elv]

i also agree that the fog lights can be blinding.... some are way worse than others.... use them for when they are intended "fog" lamps

[keepleft]

Being a Pom, i can tell you that is the worse time to put them on, they might be able to see you better but it's also blinding.
Only time they should be used is if you can't see 100 metres in front of you in fog or smoke

In relation to rear, was thinking of sourcing the French/German/Italian/Hungarian legislation that stipulates 50 metres.

Long term regardless, as the worlds vehicle design rules become one, this adoption would have taken place, getting the appropriate legislation re use of the lamp 'correct'- helps! Atm ARR 217 for either front or rear fogs has no metre rule. I'll chase that up again.

They'll be adopted, but enforcement will certainly toughen up.

NT/Darwin fog pics:-
http://tools.ntnews.com.au/photos/photo_gallery_popup.php?category_id=92


SIG:-
http://www.nbntv.com.au/index.php/2009/07/14/calls-for-improved-roadside-safety/

[Wonky]

I hate these bloody things when some numbnut has them on on a clear night! Can be blinding and distracting. I'm tempted to drive behind them with my HIDs on high beam but they probably don't even know their car well enough to even realise........ :doh:

Hopefully if they do become mandatory the numbnuts will learn what they're for and turn them off except for when necessary.

[popeye3dr]

I hate these bloody things when some numbnut has them on on a clear night! Can be blinding and distracting. I'm tempted to drive behind them with my HIDs on high beam but they probably don't even know their car well enough to even realise........ :doh:

Hopefully if they do become mandatory the numbnuts will learn what they're for and turn them off except for when necessary.

That's the thing Wonky, Most don't know there even on, but then again they shouldn't have been on in the first place! lol
With regards to using your high beam as you did, i wish this country would adopt the way us Poms use them ( all be it that there only really to be used for warning another car you there, ie same as using a horn and when you actually need them in the dark ) ie, we use them to thank people, we use them to let someone out of a junction and we use them to warn people as in the same way you was going to use yours, and everyone seems to know what your on about when you do use them, lol
I've now had to adopt the aussie way of driving, don't let anyone out of a junction, always drive in the right lane, don't thank anyone and pretend i don't know how to use a roundabout, which to be honest is my biggest pet hate, the rule book should be re-worded to just say " give way to the right " not give way to traffic already on the roundabout, theres a big difference ;-)

[White Rider]

I admit I have my foglights and parkers on every time I drive. And it's simply because I find it broadens road user awarness. My car is Odyssey in colour, and at dusk and dawn, it is a difficult colour to see. I use my foglights and and parkers (and therefore rear lights) to ensure people can see me on the road. From personal experience, the times I have not had my foglights on, there have been a few situations where other individuals changed lanes while i was almost right next to them. Because of this, my foglights stay on (especially for local driving, freeway I will turn them off during the day) even on a bright sunny day. I also find not matter the conditions of the day, but especially on a bright and sunny day, foglights are barely a distraction. They're almost unoticeable in full sunlight. Rear foglights would probably add to on road awareness, as long as they're not as bright as those hideous excel ones.

Nighttime aside, why dont u use headlights instead of the foglights?

[calais190]

Nighttime aside, why dont u use headlights instead of the foglights?

My calais has projectors as headlights, and they seem to be much brighter than my foglights during the day. I'm not on the road to blind people, just to broaden driver awareness of my position.

[HEXEM]

I too have been unfortunate to sit behind excels and more recently noticing these rear bright RED fog lights on new "luxury" model 4-wheel drives. The 4-wheel drives I have encountered have 2 of them, one either side at the rear of the vehicle just below the normal rear tail lights.

Anyway, Short of pulling over (on the way home from work) to let the person drive off far enough so it didn't distract me, I had to sit behind it for 10klm. I flashed the driver several times hoping they might think something is not right and look down at their instruments and notice the "extra" indicator that the rear fog lights were on. No such luck, when we pulled up at the lights I managed to get along side the vehicle and tell them how annoying they were to someone driving behind them. They realy didn't seem to care but turned them off anyway... I was able to see the dash indicator for the lights from my car.

The tail lights on many the new vehicels today are quite bright and noticable even in heavy rain and foggy/low cloud conditions (especially in Canberra during winter).

[keepleft]

I too have been unfortunate to sit behind excels and more recently noticing these rear bright RED fog lights on new "luxury" model 4-wheel drives. The 4-wheel drives I have encountered have 2 of them, one either side at the rear of the vehicle just below the normal rear tail lights.
Sounds like the Jeep series. All EU makes have them, certainly in this market since 2000, some as far back as 1974.


Anyway, Short of pulling over (on the way home from work) to let the person drive off far enough so it didn't distract me, I had to sit behind it for 10klm. I flashed the driver several times hoping they might think something is not right and look down at their instruments and notice the "extra" indicator that the rear fog lights were on. No such luck, when we pulled up at the lights I managed to get along side the vehicle and tell them how annoying they were to someone driving behind them. They really didn't seem to care but turned them off anyway... I was able to see the dash indicator for the lights from my car.

Agree enforcement will need to be by way of a program, plus higher cash penalty and demerits.


The tail lights on many the new vehicles today are quite bright and noticeable even in heavy rain and foggy/low cloud conditions (especially in Canberra during winter).
No change has been made to photometric 'brightness' since the 80's. In any case, the pics referenced in the OP at Boostcruising show clearly new vehicle taillights remain utterly worthless in even light rain events leading to poor visibility, no rear fog among the impacted cars. A reason why NSWFB and RFS fire fighting units have a rear fog; standard taillight strength is not enough.

We could go the other hog of course, and prohibit completely the rear fog function by eliminating the ADR, but would also do the same for front. Each unlikely, this is about education and enforcement - not too hard to achieve.

Sig:-
http://www.nbntv.com.au/index.php/2009/07/14/calls-for-improved-roadside-safety/

[AndysR8]

Are there some hard stats available around the number of accidents etc that these lights are predicted to be able to prevent??

[MJR-57T]

I dont know where you got the info on the rear fogs on NSWFB appliances.
Our pump has the normal brake, park, indicator setup like all trucks.

Not sure about the tankers but also the RFS never had them when i was there 2 years ago.

Off that note. Them stupid rear fogs are more dangerous than the front fogs as you only see the front ones for as long as it takes to pass the car.
But you get blinded for ages if your behind a car with them on doing roughly the same speed

[keepleft]

I dont know where you got the info on the rear fogs on NSWFB appliances.
Our pump has the normal brake, park, indicator setup like all trucks.

Not sure about the tankers but also the RFS never had them when i was there 2 years ago.

Off that note. Them stupid rear fogs are more dangerous than the front fogs as you only see the front ones for as long as it takes to pass the car.
But you get blinded for ages if your behind a car with them on doing roughly the same speed

1. Look again- re NSWFB fire fighting vehicles (Firepac/Rescue/Tankers) since 1988 and more recently appearing on RFS Isuzu etc; - OH&S. A single unit right of centerline rear fog.

2. Enforcement will correct errors of use.

3. Standard taillights are useless under smoke, rain, fog conditions.

One finds it difficult to be 'blinded' by a 12/P21 watt rear fog, nuisance at most. 55watt front fogs on the other hand, - can be.


E.N.F.O.R.C.E.M.E.N.T.

* Where is your nearest RFS?


http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/Scotch-Lite/Home/HiVis_Lbl/HiVis_Importance/

[MJR-57T]

1. Look again- re NSWFB fire fighting vehicles (Firepac/Rescue/Tankers) since 1988 and more recently appearing on RFS Isuzu etc; - OH&S. A single unit right of centerline rear fog.

2. Enforcement will correct errors of use.

3. Standard taillights are useless under smoke, rain, fog conditions.

One finds it difficult to be 'blinded' by a 12/P21 watt rear fog, nuisance at most. 55watt front fogs on the other hand, - can be.


E.N.F.O.R.C.E.M.E.N.T.

* Where is your nearest RFS?


http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/Scotch-Lite/Home/HiVis_Lbl/HiVis_Importance/

Well that explains it, we have a type 2 Pumper not a Tanker or Varley.

RFS station was warnervale and as far as I know there was no single light right of centerline. On the old or new cat 1's
They have 2 combination lamps like most trucks
Was the so called rear fog light on the top bar or below pump with the rest of the lights.




One finds it difficult to be 'blinded' by a 12/P21 watt rear fog, nuisance at most. 55watt front fogs on the other hand, - can be.
One wouldn't have mentioned it if one hadn't been pissed off with the rear fogs before.
And you know what one means by blinded, not literally blinded, just dazzled therefore blocking out other road markings due to the bright light.
As one said before, one can handle the front fogs as they're only shining for a few seconds but following a European car with rear fogs on is worse.

*Where did you get your information from

Here's a tanker

http://firestations.fire.nsw.gov.au/dunheved/resources-vehicles/class_1/rollover%20slices/rear_and_roof.jpg

and here's a cat 1

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/chevy_big_block_bro/Cat1.jpg

[keepleft]

MJR-350 - I'll target this more effectively if I get the chance tomorrow;-

NSWFB - Older tankers (and I recall Rescue), such as that at 2264 for example do not have the rear fog, advised by HO engineering the lamps are OH&S for new,- in existing specifications/lighting for each appliance category. Other newer 2264 appliance has the rear fog. The non rear fog tanker is I recall 10-15years old.

Through inter-jurisdictional discussion process, NSWFB was to push the lamp nationally. I suggested that it was a nice idea, but that it best be left to the road agencies as a more effective way via ADR. AUS intends to pay more than simple lip service, than we have done to date, to those UNECE vehicle technical regs.

RFS - Your new RFS pumpers increasingly should have one. I recall NSWFB engineer who moved into the service a few years back set about improving the rear-lighting spec. (We'll not discuss names in public forum). I will seek an update as to where their rear lighting specs are at, for this function, for each category.

At one stage I made the effort to notify RFS to advise the coach builder of a particular unit, to move the RF away from the DS brake-light function, in line with ADR requirement.

RFS rear fog sample, see pic portion top left of page; red lamp next to DS reverse is the rear fog. I'll take a better pic in the next day or so of that service's unit, or the unit at Cooranbong which also has the rear fog. The switches used *should* bear the ISO symbol and carry the yellow/orange telltale.

http://www.peninsularfs.org.au/gallery/gallery2.htm

Again, use of the rear fog lamp, including front fogs - is down to enforcement, and as at this year nationally - F & R fogs must not be used in clear weather.

Change in behaviour takes time, we_need_to_be_patient.


http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=450922

[MJR-57T]

MJR-350 - I'll target this more effectively if I get the chance tomorrow;-

NSWFB - Older tankers (and I recall Rescue), such as that at 2264 for example do not have the rear fog, advised by HO engineering the lamps are OH&S for new,- in existing specifications/lighting for each appliance category. Other newer 2264 appliance has the rear fog. The non rear fog tanker is I recall 10-15years old.

Through inter-jurisdictional discussion process, NSWFB was to push the lamp nationally. I suggested that it was a nice idea, but that it best be left to the road agencies as a more effective way via ADR. AUS intends to pay more than simple lip service, than we have done to date, to those UNECE vehicle technical regs.

RFS - Your new RFS pumpers increasingly should have one. I recall NSWFB engineer who moved into the service a few years back set about improving the rear-lighting spec. (We'll not discuss names in public forum). I will seek an update as to where their rear lighting specs are at, for this function, for each category.

At one stage I made the effort to notify RFS to advise the coach builder of a particular unit, to move the RF away from the DS brake-light function, in line with ADR requirement.

RFS rear fog sample, see pic portion top left of page; red lamp next to DS reverse is the rear fog. I'll take a better pic in the next day or so of that service's unit, or the unit at Cooranbong which also has the rear fog. The switches used *should* bear the ISO symbol and carry the yellow/orange telltale.

http://www.peninsularfs.org.au/gallery/gallery2.htm

Again, use of the rear fog lamp, including front fogs - is down to enforcement, and as at this year nationally - F & R fogs must not be used in clear weather.

Change in behaviour takes time, we_need_to_be_patient.


http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=450922

Thanks for that.

I see the one on the peninsula pumper but dont see one on their cat 1 so that'd be the reason ive never noticed them.
Ive never worked off or near an RFS pumper
The cat 1's might not have them yet, or maybe only on the newest tankers do.

When i get a chance ill have a look at budgewoi's tanker as they recently had theirs retro fitted but I dont recall seeing one while getting up close and personal, pushing it out of a boggy area.
But im not disputing its not there.