Double row timing chain, benifit vs cost

[Strick]

Hi all,

Next week sonny will be chucking in a new cam and under drive pully. For those that have had a cam installed, why or why not have you decided on a double row timing chain. Im wondering what benifits they will give, if its worth the price, and pritty much just general info on double row timing chains.

Thanks

Strick

[wikky]

G'day Strick. Best you :search: as this topic has been covered a plenty.

[SSV8TE]

Gday mate,
In most of the mods we do to our cars some make them go faster and some make them stay together longer so i would say go for the double row as a major safety feature.
Cheers,
Andy.

[EXCESSV]

i got one in my cammed SSV.
cost wise i have no idea what it cost but did it for the safety "just in case" scenario.

really is up to the person.
most run a single better row and have no issues...so have issues
i didnt cut any corners with my build so i put one in just in case

we had the engine out to do it to take the sump off and get the oil pump pickup lines in the right spot

[Evman]

I'm running an LS7 single timing chain but I don't have a huge cam either.

[tacka007]

only cost about $200 and takes no more effort to do when doing a cam good investment i think

[SSV8TE]

To add to information the double row gets rid of the crappy plastic chain tensioner that even in some stock situations has been found to be broken.
The double row doesnt need the tensioner so it is removed. The positive is that here is actually 2 less parts to break at high rpm.
Cheers,
Andy.

[Evman]

You can over engineer it as much as you want, but when it comes down to it if you have a smalling cam there's no need. Double row timing chains are stronger and thus for big cams that wont stretch or break under the (much) higher forces of running the steep lobes. Smaller cams don't have such extreme forces and so don't require the added strength in the chain. Even still, and upgraded single row is a good idea.

It's a bit like putting forged internals inside an engine running low boost. Sure, the safety is there but it's not really needed. The same arguement goes for dual valve springs, which funnily enough turns out that a lot less people are using them than previously thought.

[gmh308]

Hi all,

Next week sonny will be chucking in a new cam and under drive pully. For those that have had a cam installed, why or why not have you decided on a double row timing chain. Im wondering what benifits they will give, if its worth the price, and pritty much just general info on double row timing chains.

Thanks

Strick

What are Sonny's thoughts on this? Is he recommending?

Pure and simple the double row billet setup gives you insurance as the other posters have noted. The factory uses single row chains on powdered metal sprockets for conservative factory cams and factory valvetrains.

Go beyond that into aftermarket cams and valvetrain parts (springs) and the chain is loaded more highly and more subject to whip and stretch with higher loads and rpms potentially. Aftermarket balancers can also give the cam chain a harder time, but that is a complex space to get into and depends on brand. Sonny would use only top quality components and his focus on quality is outstanding.

Additionally the factory uses split rollers on the no name chains whereas an aftermarket Rollmaster set features 2 rows of German IWIS chain with one piece rollers and very high quality steel. JP's are similar with Rolon chain with one piece rollers as well. Add that to high quality billet steel, heat treated as necessary with an adjustable cam gear and there is great value for money.

A high quality double row chain is far more resistant to whip and stretch and will ensure your cam timing remains as designed for far longer than the factory setup.

Trust this helps. :)

[johnv]

You can over engineer it as much as you want, but when it comes down to it if you have a smalling cam there's no need. Double row timing chains are stronger and thus for big cams that wont stretch or break under the (much) higher forces of running the steep lobes. Smaller cams don't have such extreme forces and so don't require the added strength in the chain. Even still, and upgraded single row is a good idea.

It's a bit like putting forged internals inside an engine running low boost. Sure, the safety is there but it's not really needed. The same arguement goes for dual valve springs, which funnily enough turns out that a lot less people are using them than previously thought.

Even a mild cam will have more lift and more aggressive ramp rates then a std cam, then add the heavier valve springs that you should also have installed along with the cam, and the higher rpm operating range of your new cam, you will be putting quite a bit more strain on your timing gear.

also a single row is not adjustable, so your camshaft cannot be dialed in (degeed)to the manufacturers spec's (just lined up dot to dot).

so for longevity and to get the best from your cam install spend the extra
$2-300

[macca_779]

My opinion on chains is simple. The amount of stock chains you hear about breaking are minimal. Probably less than 1%. That being said if you do break one it will make a mess. There are of course alternatives. Double row chains require a bit more work than some people realise to install properly. Sump removal, shimming, oil pump removal. Its all extra work. There is of course an in between option and that is to install the higher quality LS2 chain (this is for LS1's obviously). You still have to get the oil pick up off which depending on how handy you are with the tools may require the sump off as well. But you wont have to shim.

My thoughts are that the likely hood of failure is so remote that my risk assessment leads me to not bother. That being said if the chain is stretched. Replace it with an LS2 item. Double row chains are a bit excessive in my book.

For the later engines with the higher strength chain already. Its not the chain that causes failures.. Its the tensioner.

[VCMSWT]

The vast majority of cam packages we supply to VCM Suite equipped workshops includes:

Camshaft
Valve springs
Retainers
Locks
Double row timing chain
ARP balancer boltIn our Autotechnique workshop, irrespective of the cam involved, we always fit the above and also - without fail - pin the balancer to the crank to make 100% sure the balancer doesn't spin on the snout.

The main reason we always recommend a timing chain is because of stretch with older stock chains sometimes resulting in quite significant cam timing variations.

[Strick]

thanks for all the info fellers, ive been able to understand the positives and negativies alot more now. have emailed sonny however i cant give him a call due to my work at the moment, im dropping it off on wednesday so ill speak to him in a bit more detail then i think. he's done a heap of these so im sure he can point me in the right direction.

Thanks again for all the info

cheers

Strick

[-GTS-]

Let us know which way you end up going....

And good luck with your mods :goodjob:

[bigdogdazza]

Well for what my two bobs worth is go the double! I am not a mechanic so I dont fix em I destroy em. A couple of bucks spent now will soon be forgotten but a couple of bucks saved COULD cost a hell of a lot more and some heartache to go with it. Why risk it? Big cam, small cam....if its out then do it anyway. You wouldnt rip off the heads for a major overhaul then use second hand gaskets would you? Just do it for the peice of mind.:)

[Evman]

Even a mild cam will have more lift and more aggressive ramp rates then a std cam, then add the heavier valve springs that you should also have installed along with the cam, and the higher rpm operating range of your new cam, you will be putting quite a bit more strain on your timing gear.

also a single row is not adjustable, so your camshaft cannot be dialed in (degeed)to the manufacturers spec's (just lined up dot to dot).

so for longevity and to get the best from your cam install spend the extra
$2-300

I'm sure if it was vital then John (Street Quick Performance) would have fitted one to my engine. He didn't. Instead he fitted an LS7 single row timing set. I never said the smaller cams don't increase the load, I said bigger cams increase it by huge amounts, so there's no need to tell me something I already know. Like I said, it's the same arguement as dual valve springs - in a lot of applications it's simply not required.

[duke5700]

I fitted the double for added safety at big rpms and I wanted vernier timing adjustment behind my split timing cover. Easy to pull the top cover and adjust the cam timing or remove the cam for another one depending on what I am doing. :)

[Vulture]

I'm sure if it was vital then John (Street Quick Performance) would have fitted one to my engine. He didn't.

I'm with you. When very experienced engine builders (like Street Quick above and Powertorque in my case) don't routinely fit them to their cam jobs it must not be necessary for the majority of cases.

[ls1wags]

Hey guys,

if someone has already posted this already, please excuse my ignorance!!! For peace of mind and an extra $200 or so, I would definately do it. Especially if the donk is pulled apart! I have one in my vx ls1 wagon and installed it when I done my head and cam upgrade! The only set back I found was if your doing the cam change in the car, you may need to pull the motor out or drop the crossmember in order to get the sump off! The oil pick up stops the oil pump from sliding off the crank snout in order to replace the timing set. You might be able to do it an easier way but I didn't want to drop any bolts in the sump or work upside down under the car and risk stuffing the gasket! I was lucky I guess, I needed to put the new stall in at the same time, so I just pulled it out and done it on the engine stand! I didn't have anyone to give me a hand so I left the bonnet on and removed the old heads and intake manifold in the car, then pulled the short engine out!

The timing sets available these days are adjustable (so if a timing adjustment is needed, its easy) also some have a torrington bearing set up for an even smoother running valvetrain. The double row chains come with spacers and bolts etc... so the oil pump doesn't fowl on the chain due to the extra width! If you kept the old timing chain setup, you wouldn't need to go through the extra hassle and the oil pump/pick up/sump could stay in tact, but entirely up to you!

Some of the camshafts on the market these days have quite a bit of advance ground in the cam and gains can be found by retarding the timing 2 or 4 degrees. Whithout the adjustable timing set, the cam timing can't be altered and in some cases can't be dialled in correctly.

Sorry to bore you guys, just new to the forum and thought Id talk some SH@T!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wonky]

To add to information the double row gets rid of the crappy plastic chain tensioner that even in some stock situations has been found to be broken.

What he said - the tensioner is crap!! :vpo:

[Evman]

I should add -

I have a Rollmaster LS7 timing set and not the factory GM LS7 timing set, which it turns out uses the same chain and all as the L98 anyway. There was a bit of confusion going there! The Rollmaster timing sets feature billet steel set with induction hardened crank gear and premium grade Iwis full roller timing chain. The set can also be dialled in, whereas apparently (as previously mentioned by someone else) the GM LS7 set can't be.

+ it's running an LS2 chain guide, not the standard one ;)

[mikek73xu1]

I know everyone has there own idea's but for me at the minimal extra cost why not put in the strongest available option? Its not like its an extra $500.....
Mike.

[gmh308]

I know everyone has there own idea's but for me at the minimal extra cost why not put in the strongest available option? Its not like its an extra $500.....
Mike.

Yeah billet single or double row items are stronger than factory pure and simple, and lower cost than replacement factory parts. :)

[Vulture]

I know everyone has there own idea's but for me at the minimal extra cost why not put in the strongest available option? Its not like its an extra $500.....
Mike.

But why spend any money on something that, for the majority of jobs isn't required?

[mikek73xu1]

But why spend any money on something that, for the majority of jobs isn't required?

If you read the heading for the post its "benefit vs cost", its not asking peoples opinion wether to fit it or not.
And my reply was that for the minimal extra cost it is worth doing.Put simply the cost is minimal and the benefit is huge.
Mike

[gmh308]

If you read the heading for the post its "benefit vs cost", its not asking peoples opinion wether to fit it or not.

And my reply was that for the minimal extra cost it is worth doing.Put simply the cost is minimal and the benefit is huge.
Mike

Ditto! Why did Holden originally supply 308's with a single row chain, double row sprockets for a regular production engine, but with L34's they went factory double row chain? Similar chains, similar sprockets, or maybe exactly the same.

Answer: durability/insurance for performance use! :)

Saying that it isn't required is like saying forged pistons arent worth using for forced induction or nitrous...:doh:

[GenReaper]

The ability to dial in the cam would be one of the reason and for strength.

Putting a cam in Dot to Dot is not the best way to go about it so its worth it if the mechanic knows what he is doing.

[TAKEITEZ]

being able to dial the cam in where the grind requires is the main reason...
double, single, whatever...

i'd use a double even on a 220/220 cam or something like that. the cost isn't huge, the benifit is knowing that the cam is in the perfect position...

specially when trying to put something big in the thing... with a dot to dot install the ICL checks out at 116* and you are asked to install at 112* ICL by the cam card... you can't do anything about that without a proper chain that allows adjustment... don't know if i'd be happy for a 7500rpm spin with a dot-to-dot she'll be install...

[poolkeeper]

So did you get the double row, Strick?

[Oztrack Tuning]

just be aware of the problem in fitting double row sets in aussie ls1s. Its not as easy to do as in the old Holdens or American LS1s.
There are technical issues which make it not an easy fit or a dumb install if not done properly.

[WOMBIE]

I don't run a double row chain as my shop advised me at the time it wasn't neccesary........I don't run a big cam either but there you go :)

[zorro]

I don't run a double row chain as my shop advised me at the time it wasn't neccesary........I don't run a big cam either but there you go :)

exactly, and like has been mentioned above how often does someone post here or you hear a timing chain has broken?

for my stroker yeah Im putting one in as I am investing a couple of bucks into this motor, but for a cam only car not worth it unless the motor has done over 200,000klms which is what I believe a timing chain is now past its optimum tolerances. And in which case you can go double row or aftermarket single.

[Gen4 6.2L]

Seen a 100k engine break form a chain break and no cam

[WOMBIE]

Seen a 100k engine break form a chain break and no cam

Yep I don't disagree that you have but that would be a rarity imo and possibly some lack of maintenance issue.....who knows why some let go and the majority don't!

[smokey777]

my L98 has done 8000ks & has a 224x224 cam in it should i have gone double?

[Evman]

Is it a stock chain or upgraded single?

[Strick]

hey all,

i didnt end up getting the double row timing chain, or an up graded one for that matter. From the advice i got from my workshop there was simply no need. He has seen one break in his many years and that was from a TT 6.2L VE, oh the timing chain was defective from factory.

So simply no need, thanks for all the advice i have got from you guys. Like many have stated for a simple cam cam/heads upgrade its more than over kill

cheers

[Gen4 6.2L]

Yep I don't disagree that you have but that would be a rarity imo and possibly some lack of maintenance issue.....who knows why some let go and the majority don't!

no full log book service just must have been one off flaw

[STATIE]

no full log book service just must have been one off flaw

Don't worry you aren't alone - it happens & more than some of the posters above have obviously heard about - I know of a few including myself in a fairly big dollar motor a few years back.
I guarantee that if you break one it will be a shitload more than a $200 fix.

I mean why wouldn't you change it? If the answer is to save money then why not leave stock valve springs in?, stock push rods?, use Kmart oil?, cheap ass Coles fuel?, use $2 Shop tools etc etc.

Thats without even going into dialing in etc etc.