Lpg Liquid Injection - Part 1

[Moderators]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 96418

[APS Fston]

Liquid LPG injection is finally here.
Australian LPG Warehouse (www. lpgliquidinjection.com) have been working overtime in developing the first Liquid LPG injection system on the Australian market.
This system is more fuel efficient with an improvement on fuel consumption of up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.
Power gains are also another advantage due to the LPG being injected into the cylinder as a liquid.
The vehicles already developed are Holden LS1 5.7, 6.0ltr, Ford BA/BF 6cyl, Territory 1&2.
These vehicles are all emission approved.

[acecv8]

First i've heard about this. but hey being in W.A we are still wainting for lots of things :)
i hope this can be the case as the 60secs+ is a bit long.

[T2000]

Hi Mods & all other interested LiLPG subscribers.

The link to this thread from the closed/ linked thread is broken and not obvious without a search :confused:

I have been very quiet on LS1 due to competing interests... but have some interesting information and observation about LiLPG based upon our "backyard" development and tinkering. In a few weeks I will post up a fair bit of info based upon my L98 VE and a baby cam.

I would really appreciate any info about a shorter (10 second) purge time!

Cheers Guys


Regards

Chris

[acecv8]

i've finally done a reasonable trip in my VE GTS Auto with a cam. i usually get 27l/100 in the city with on LPG and i got it down to 16.6l/100 on LPG on my trip with me also being a little heavy on the overtaking foot. with the aircon running flat out - a fully loaded boot, 2 people in the car and on a very hot day. So it didn't go too bad in my opinion.

T2000 - can't wait to see what you've got for us mate :)

[Highway]

In stock auto form with Tune and Dus CAI I seem to get consistant 12.5 country and 17-19 city.

Thats with lots of overtaking and short spurts.

With a baby cam tuned you should be able to get similiar or even better I reckon. ( Expecially in the country )

Mike

[acecv8]

I'm still trying to get a tune sorted out for my car in W.A. so hopefully i will get one sorted out soon :)

[Highway]

I'm still trying to get a tune sorted out for my car in W.A. so hopefully i will get one sorted out soon :)

Give Steve at Oztrack a call he may be able to sort something out for you

[acecv8]

Cheers Highway - i'd like to but i can't justify another $1000+ to have the car retuned again :(

[danielsan]

ace, what does your car do on petrol in comparison?

[acecv8]

around town high 21 - 24l/100 i haven't done a big run on petrol since i've had the cam put in and running on LPG yet

[danielsan]

Thats not as bad as it looks then, your using approx 15 - 20 % more LPG around town, a bit higher than expected. In comparison after 20,000kms my useage is approx 12% more, that was both before and after a mafless tune.

[Highway]

Cheers Highway - i'd like to but i can't justify another $1000+ to have the car retuned again :(

Its worth a call

It won't cost $1000+

Mike

[acecv8]

Cheers Mike - i'll sit on it a bit longer i think - i'm in no hurry with it yet the car still runs fine and has good power thats what counts :)

[fatbob]

more economy - so start getting the money back straight away
and more power ....
its like money saved in the bank - longer its there the more return you get

[brenten88]

pritty keen on a LILPG kit next year, has the price of kits dropped at all, how much are people in vic paying for a donut tank kit?

[T2000]

Well it appears as if we now have the tune pretty well sorted :D
AND... the initial indications are that we have made a huge jump in the right direction!

By using the new beta Operating System for the VE's (E38) PCM we were able to successfully load and run two separate tunes, 1 for PULP and 1 for LPG.
Previously the car was tuned for LPG, but still "made safe" for PULP - a compromise which ultimately robs both power and performance :(

The fuels require quite different spark timing and this can now be independently set for both LPG and PULP. In comparison to PULP - LPG requires significantly more advance in the lower RPM and LESS in the higher RPM.

One of the biggest improvements that the dual tunes allows is to set the stoichiometric A/F (Air Fuel Ratio) of each of the fuels independently.
Petrol stoich is 14.7 vs LPG stoich of 15.5. So any dual fuel vehicle not running dual tunes is either running 5-6% too rich on LPG or 5-6% too lean on Petrol!

Now that I am running the correct AFR for the LPG, part throttle response is greatly improved and the car takes alot less throttle% to get moving (and it was already good :eyes:). Instant fuel stats are also looking pretty promising but can be misleading without a decent run and some pump statistics to back them up.

At the moment I am still manually switching "tunes" as I need to get back to my LPG fitter so that I can source a "Peel Safety Switch" which will replace my manual switch.

In the coming weeks I have another 2000km round trip... I'll keep some records and will update you all on the results.

Big thanks to my mates at SouthCoastCommodores (http://southcoastcommodores.com.au)for your continued help and support with developing the car.
Also thanks to Kurt at Australian LPG Conversions and the guys at Australian LPG Warehouse for the info!


Merry Christmas:xmas:

[Highway]

Looks good Chris.

Thanks for sharing the info

Mike

[ratter]

One of the biggest improvements that the dual tunes allows is to set the stoichiometric A/F (Air Fuel Ratio) of each of the fuels independently.
Petrol stoich is 14.7 vs LPG stoich of 15.5. So any dual fuel vehicle not running dual tunes is either running 5-6% too rich on LPG or 5-6% too lean on Petrol!



Are you talking about open loop operation or closed loop?

In closed loop the ecu will maintain Lambda 1, which fuel is used will not affect it, it will be lambda 1 which happens to be 14.7:1 for petrol or approx 15.3-5:1 for lpg.

A dual fuel car running correct operation in closed loop will be running 14.7:1 on petrol and 15.3-5:1 on lpg with no tune changes.

:goodjob: with your tuning, it is good to see results come around.

[T2000]

Are you talking about open loop operation or closed loop?

In closed loop the ecu will maintain Lambda 1, which fuel is used will not affect it, it will be lambda 1 which happens to be 14.7:1 for petrol or approx 15.3-5:1 for lpg.

A dual fuel car running correct operation in closed loop will be running 14.7:1 on petrol and 15.3-5:1 on lpg with no tune changes.

:goodjob: with your tuning, it is good to see results come around.
Hi Ratter,

Cheers mate, yes sorry should have stated that I was talking about Open Loop operation.

With my car in particular I found that whilst running in Closed Loop that throttle response was fairly laggy but when running in OL it is vastly more responsive. If I eventually do return the car to CL operation I have the peace of mind that the Short Term Fuel Trims required to make Lambda 1 will be minute.

I often pondered how "confused" the PCM must get when forced to constantly adjust Fuel Trims (both short & Long term) due to the dual fuels AND how efficient/ lengthy that process is? - Hence the motivation for getting both fuels correctly catered for in the tune. - Admittedly not a process that most people would think is worthwhile or necessary but I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

I am looking forward to further testing and suspect that, in my case at least, it has been worth the effort:)

[ratter]

actually the ecu would not have a problem with dual fuel assuming fuel calibrations are correct as it does not need to know what fuel is used, the o2 just reports a voltage based on the oxygen content of the fuel being used, all fuels at stoich will make the o2 send the same voltage to the ecu, because of this in closed loop it be be running at a lambda of 1 no matter what the air fuel ratio of the fuel being used is.
Obvious a fuel like methanol, which I think it's air fuel ratio is about 9:1 at lambda 1 would probaly max out the fuel trims trying to get the correct lambda reading unless the tune was adjusted to get the base fuel table correct, but this would not be a problem with LPG inless the base fuel table was out by a mile to start with.

This why it is easier to talk lambda these days rather than air fuel ratio.

[blownba]

Good work T2000.
I always enjoy reading about your exploits with JTG.
Keep it up.:goodjob:
The dual tunes are an awesome addition to any LPG Commodore. You can make the best of both worlds. You can run aggressive ignition advance on gas and have no worries about running it on petrol when you need to.
I know a few fords that need to drive REALLY easy when on petrol or run octane boost to ensure there are no problems. Its a pain in the bum.
Its great to see the car is always evolving too. That makes things interesting.



On another note I would also like to say a MERRY CHRISTMAS to all you guys too.

:xmas:

[GTOcoupe]

Ok so my car doesn't have the liquid LPG system its just stock petrol if i want this system done right with dual tuning for both petrol and LPG i live in sydney who and where and what do i need and i'll travel to get it done right.

[brenten88]

Hey fellas I drive a VY2 Adventra LS1 I am pritty keen on a LILPG kit in a couple of months, has the price of kits dropped at all? how much are people in vic paying for a donut tank kit? surely someone knows rough prices...... also apart from APS frankston are there any other competent installers a little closer to the northern suburbs???

[amckiwi]

There is a supplier in Knox whose name escapes me (he posts here from time to time) but that is not really much closer

I would be prepared to travel the extra distance for a quality install

Current pricing is of interest to me as well

Stu

[GTOcoupe]

another quetion for me is will my turtle shell fit back over the top of the manifold and hide the injectors/coils etc like it does now?

[johnnyk]

Hey fellas I drive a VY2 Adventra LS1 I am pritty keen on a LILPG kit in a couple of months, has the price of kits dropped at all? how much are people in vic paying for a donut tank kit? surely someone knows rough prices...... also apart from APS frankston are there any other competent installers a little closer to the northern suburbs???

I live in the outer north and drove to Frankston for my install :) Highly recommend them....

[WOMBIE]

I have a mate who is trading in his ls1 for a Ford BA/BF 6cyl turbo ute (for work purposes) and so is this liquid injection suitable for the turbo vehicles?

I wasn't 100% sure so I thought I would ask the question here for him.

[PoweredByCNG]

I have a mate who is trading in his ls1 for a Ford BA/BF 6cyl turbo ute (for work purposes) and so is this liquid injection suitable for the turbo vehicles?


The XR6 Turbos run better on ICOM JTG LPG than petrol. They gain a respectable amount of power without even requiring a tune. This is the ONLY LPG system I would recommend for performance applications!

[WOMBIE]

The XR6 Turbos run better on ICOM JTG LPG than petrol. They gain a respectable amount of power without even requiring a tune. This is the ONLY LPG system I would recommend for performance applications!


Ok then great thanks for the info it's much appreciated and so I'll pass that on to him :)

[Fiver]

another quetion for me is will my turtle shell fit back over the top of the manifold and hide the injectors/coils etc like it does now?

It can be easily refitted with minor mounting modification. I love the idea of refitting it.

[johnnyk]

another quetion for me is will my turtle shell fit back over the top of the manifold and hide the injectors/coils etc like it does now?

Not without making some mods. Having said that, I don't mind having mine off (I haven't bothered to want to put it back on).

[V8YANK]

Sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but I've had excellent experiences with straight-gas on older vehicles. The minute I heard about injected, I think I lost my load.

I've got a big-block Chev, looking to get the best out of it. I'd put it on straight-gas tomorrow... but injected seems to be well-worth waiting for.

And do these setups qualify for subsidies, or is it like all the others I've done, all out-of-pocket :(

[T2000]

Sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but I've had excellent experiences with straight-gas on older vehicles. The minute I heard about injected, I think I lost my load.

I've got a big-block Chev, looking to get the best out of it. I'd put it on straight-gas tomorrow... but injected seems to be well-worth waiting for.

And do these setups qualify for subsidies, or is it like all the others I've done, all out-of-pocket :(
AFAIK the subsidy is still in place but I think it has been reduced from $2000 to $1750.
The iCom JTG system definitely qualifies for the rebate if the job is done by an approved installer.
I dont think that you will get this system running as "straight gas" - I WISH!
The system requires a petrol start then a 60second purge time before automatically switching to LPG.

Cheers

Chris

[johnnyk]

Can an APS rep or installer confirm whether we can organise to have the purge time reduced?

What was the issue (is it one of compliance) with having a, say 10 sec purge time running on straight gas??

- John

[T2000]

Can an APS rep or installer confirm whether we can organise to have the purge time reduced?

What was the issue (is it one of compliance) with having a, say 10 sec purge time running on straight gas??

- John

No idea why John, I was just told by my installer that it couldnt be done.

Regards


Chris

[johnnyk]

I'm pretty sure I've read on this forum somewhere that it's possible to change the duration.

Can anyone confirm?

- John

[HSV Listy]

It was in the old thread somewhere. Some company in sydney does it but dont think APS does it as mine was still 60 second changeover.

The LPG system is going well but my petrol fuel pump decided to die today ruining the race day tommorrow. Need full LPG and rid the dam petrol.

[T2000]

It was in the old thread somewhere. Some company in sydney does it but dont think APS does it as mine was still 60 second changeover.

The LPG system is going well but my petrol fuel pump decided to die today ruining the race day tommorrow. Need full LPG and rid the dam petrol.
Badluck on your petrol pump Listy...
Would love to start on LPG and totally eliminate cylinder washdown and the need for cold start enrichment (such a waste of fuel and a cause of engine wear).
If you find the installer who modded or adjusted the system please let me know.


Cheers

Chris

[Oztrack Tuning]

You cant clutch start it on LPG listy? Surely there is a way to get it started on LPG.

[T2000]

Hi Steve,

I really dont think that the iCom systems electronics will permit the system to run until the car has approx a minute of run time (although I dont know how that is "sensed"). Even if you stall then restart the car it will reset the purge timer again.
If you key to ignition the system knows that it needs to purge and will just sit there "flashing orange" until the car has been started and run for the full purge time then you get a "solid orange". Without starting and running the light never goes "solid orange". - did that make sense?

[HSV Listy]

I have been scratchin my head trying to find a way around it and try and get it to start on LPG but can not seem to find away to do it. I though about getting a jerry and a hand pump and pumping fuel in there for a minute to get it going. Also some aerostart to get me going.

Thing is there will be about 4 or 5 sets of laps and doing this over and over and idleing in the waiting area for 15 minutes it would just be a pain and too much risk of things going wrong.

I will get some aerostart or something to get it to the mechanics on Monday though. Started plenty of tractors on the stuff so should be right

[PoweredByCNG]

The purging will NOT occur if the engine is not running. This is because it is illegal in Australia to have LPG fuel circulating through an engine bay in these conditions. The purge time for the ICOM JTG system is always around 45 seconds on our particular install.

[danielsan]

Yes the purge time can be changed.

The earlier units can be changed by opening up the icu and changing the 4 DIP switches. They can be set to monofuel, 10sec, 30sec or 60sec. Opening the ICU and changing the dip switches will void your warranty

If yours has what looks like a 3.5mm jack on the side(see image), you'll need a data cable and software (or a scantool of sorts, i'm not sure which as info is incredibly hard to come accross) These ones i'm not sure of what purge the times can be set to. Mine was installed DEC 08 and has the 3.5mm jack..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/daniel_san/P1000065.jpg

Users on a german LPG site (where i got this info from) have found that a 10sec purge time is ok in warmer weather, but creates drivability issues for the first few minutes in colder temps. Most of them have theirs set to 30sec purge.

[T2000]

Good info - thanks Daniel.
Do you have a Link to the forum?

[danielsan]

check your PM's

[HSV Listy]

Where is the ICU located. Might be silly question but I can not see much in my bay.

[danielsan]

mines just behind the coolant resevoir, next to the passanger strut tower, has two big grey plugs on the top.

[ratter]

any chance of the link here also?

Thanks

[T2000]

Just a quick update.

I take no responsibility for the correctness of this info and how you may choose to use it - it was sourced from a German forum (thanks to Danielsan) and was translated by Google Translation tools.

This appears to be a picture of the internals of one of the ICU's.

There is a switch block which can be configured as follows:

DIP1 DIP2 DIP3 DIP4 time

OFF ON ON ON 55 sec.

ON OFF ON ON 30 sec.

ON ON ON ON 5 sec.

OFF ON OFF ON Mono.


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSC00344.jpg


I will try to find some time to check out my system and verify that the above info is relevant to our system. I probably wont get time until the end of the week though.


Regards




Chris

[johnnyk]

The purging will NOT occur if the engine is not running. This is because it is illegal in Australia to have LPG fuel circulating through an engine bay in these conditions. The purge time for the ICOM JTG system is always around 45 seconds on our particular install.

What do you mean by circulating through an engine bay in these conditions?? :confused:

[ratter]

The law states that gas can only flow for a very short time unless the engine is cranking or running, the time would not be enough to purge the system

[danielsan]

Below is a pic of one of the ICU boards from my car. The other is identical but has the 3.5mm jack on it. You'll see it has no DIP switches...... Interestingly when i went to pull mine apart, it appears someone had already done so, 1 screw and 2 washers were missing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/daniel_san/P1000062.jpg

For anyone else who's interested the site is lpgforum.de/icom-jtg

[Oztrack Tuning]

I just tuned a LS1 VX GTO manual, that was fitted recentlyt by Kurt near Wollongong with the latest liquid injection system. It made 260rwkw which is a new record on the dyno i use for stock cammed LS1s.

It had an OTR and a full exhaust as well.

The owner is very pleased and the car drove nicely.

[HSV Listy]

I just tuned a LS1 VX GTO manual, that was fitted recentlyt by Kurt near Wollongong with the latest liquid injection system. It made 260rwkw which is a new record on the dyno i use for stock cammed LS1s.

It had an OTR and a full exhaust as well.

The owner is very pleased and the car drove nicely.

That is a good result steve.

PS: FYI the was running much better after the alternator went in. It was jinning more stuff around than the afr too. The idle now sits lower again but still ticks over but a tad low, it seems to rev much better and stronger and the change over from tps fueling to map is now seemless too. Can not believe a playing up alternator can cause so many changes. There is a fair load on the battery with all the stuff running. Thanks for all the time you spent on it so I apreciate that. Just need to get the petrol fuel pump in Thursday and get a dyno run done Friday to double check the afrs again. Next track day if a few weeks away so I will get some data to you.

[REV-IT]

I got one of those JTG systems put into my VE GTS on Friday--could not be happier. After driving around town over the weekend managed to achieve a figure of 16.4 lt per 100km. This seems to be very similar figure for running on 98 octane petrol. And the power is up!

[johnnyk]

Below is a pic of one of the ICU boards from my car. The other is identical but has the 3.5mm jack on it. You'll see it has no DIP switches...... Interestingly when i went to pull mine apart, it appears someone had already done so, 1 screw and 2 washers were missing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/daniel_san/P1000062.jpg

For anyone else who's interested the site is lpgforum.de/icom-jtg

Any idea on how to connect to the thing to change the timeout?

[LuisS]

I got one of those JTG systems put into my VE GTS on Friday--could not be happier. After driving around town over the weekend managed to achieve a figure of 16.4 lt per 100km. This seems to be very similar figure for running on 98 octane petrol. And the power is up!

Glad to hear !

I reckon there's still a few Kw to be gained - shoot me a PM once you've done your 1000 or so Km :)

Luis

[danielsan]

Any idea on how to connect to the thing to change the timeout?

It turns out i may be a bit wrong but trying to translate some of that german to english is quite hard even with google. It looks like the 3.5mm port is a diagnostic port only. The purge time is "hardwired" in, but i can't get hold of the schematics for the board so i cant play around with it.


On another note, i had the backseat of the car out yesterday and driving along the LPG pump sounds like a boeing 747 coming into land:confused: it also didn't turn the pump off when it ran out of gas and auto switched back to petrol. i can't imagine this would be doing my "747 sounding" pump any good. It does turn the pump off if i manualy change fuels....

Unfortuntely i now live 300kms away from the closet JTG installer so i cant even get them to check it out...

[REV-IT]

APS Luis -- PM sent

[HSV Listy]

It turns out i may be a bit wrong but trying to translate some of that german to english is quite hard even with google. It looks like the 3.5mm port is a diagnostic port only. The purge time is "hardwired" in, but i can't get hold of the schematics for the board so i cant play around with it.


On another note, i had the backseat of the car out yesterday and driving along the LPG pump sounds like a boeing 747 coming into land:confused: it also didn't turn the pump off when it ran out of gas and auto switched back to petrol. i can't imagine this would be doing my "747 sounding" pump any good. It does turn the pump off if i manualy change fuels....

Unfortuntely i now live 300kms away from the closet JTG installer so i cant even get them to check it out...

Mine does make a bit of noise on start up and I have the back seat out all the time due to the cage. Just get a louder exhaust or turn the stero up and it goes away. With the back seat out the exhaust is a fair bit lounder and then you have the diff gear wining away and the road noise etc etc. Love it.
Also I am 3000km away from the nearest LI LPG service centre and mine has not been touched in 10000km and that is even the 1000km service. Running fine so far but hopefully they get a NT rep soon as a service would be good just to check things.

[danielsan]

My noise isn't on startup, its the whole time its running, over the exhaust and road noise at 110km/h.....

Do you have any issues with refueling in the hot weather in the NT, i cant fill up above 26c unless i find a servo with a high-flow pump.

[HSV Listy]

My noise isn't on startup, its the whole time its running, over the exhaust and road noise at 110km/h.....

Do you have any issues with refueling in the hot weather in the NT, i cant fill up above 26c unless i find a servo with a high-flow pump.

All the time being that loud is a bit unusual. Once the pumps warm and get full of liquid it should be reasonable quiet.

I only fill up on the way to work. I tried during the day once and gave up after 30L. It took another 29L the next morning and I only did 10km.
Some morning if I run the tank as low as it goes I can get 60L in it. It is a 85L tank though so not too bad.

[Highway]

My noise isn't on startup, its the whole time its running, over the exhaust and road noise at 110km/h.....

Do you have any issues with refueling in the hot weather in the NT, i cant fill up above 26c unless i find a servo with a high-flow pump.


Will have to check mine but dont really notice any noise as its the wheel well type.

The pumps more likely to fill are the below ground ones I have found when its hot.

I also try to fill just after starting as there is almost never any problem.

Mike

[pro-logic]

Any news updates on the JTG system for SIDIs (the 3.6 in particular)

[T2000]

Any news updates on the JTG system for SIDIs (the 3.6 in particular)

I know that they are available at all JTG installers and are now being done... don't know any details though -sorry!

[pro-logic]

I called my local JTG installer. He said it's not yet available...

Does anybody else have any info about liquid JTG for direct injection?

[LuisS]

I called my local JTG installer. He said it's not yet available...

Does anybody else have any info about liquid JTG for direct injection?


The SIDI kits are in "durability" testing stage , tests are being conducted both in Australia and Italy.

ALPGW expects to have kits available within 3 months.

Hope this helps

Luis

[pro-logic]

Nice, thanks for the info APS.

Do you have any other details?
I'm guessing the kits use the in cylinder injectors?
Pricing is similar to normal kits?
Any other info :D?

[lidar]

Hey Chris,

Will the purge time be able to be changed when i get mine installed next month? Is yours reduced now and if so is it running well?





Just a quick update.

I take no responsibility for the correctness of this info and how you may choose to use it - it was sourced from a German forum (thanks to Danielsan) and was translated by Google Translation tools.

This appears to be a picture of the internals of one of the ICU's.

There is a switch block which can be configured as follows:

DIP1 DIP2 DIP3 DIP4 time

OFF ON ON ON 55 sec.

ON OFF ON ON 30 sec.

ON ON ON ON 5 sec.

OFF ON OFF ON Mono.


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSC00344.jpg


I will try to find some time to check out my system and verify that the above info is relevant to our system. I probably wont get time until the end of the week though.


Regards




Chris

[Black VU SS ute]

is this liquid injection avaliable in perth yet?

[smokey777]

is it cheap yet :jester:

[acecv8]

Black VU SS Ute - yes it is, i got mine done at the car doctor in port kennedy but there are others around Perth that do it

[Black VU SS ute]

sweet, what did they charge you for it?

[acecv8]

at the time it was new here in Perth and it was $6300 less the govt rebate so cost me $3000 i'm sure it's cheaper by now

[PoweredByCNG]

A standard JTG install (in Perth) shouldn't set you back too much more than $5500.

[Black VU SS ute]

any rebate still? or has the government pissed it off?

[HSVREDSLED]

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Energyandfuels/LPGVehicleScheme/Pages/home.aspx

[amckiwi]

Grant currently $1,500 dropping to $1,250 from 1 July

Conversion getting close to $5,500 with a donut tank

Not sure where the exchange rate savings are going :hide:

My conversion gets done next week when the out of stock donut tanks turn up :goodjob:

Stu

[Black VU SS ute]

what do they hold ltr wise

[amckiwi]

55L I think
Traditional tank 75 I think

Stu

[lidar]

I am getting the JTG liquid injection in a couple of weeks. $5250 less $1500 rebate. Thats with the bigger standard tank.

Cant wait.....

[xshore]

Does $5250 include a tune?

[Black VU SS ute]

so thats 5250 then take 1500, or is it already taken off..

[nvous1]

so thats 5250 then take 1500, or is it already taken off..

You pay the full amount and then claim the rebate at a medicare office or mail it off.

[Black VU SS ute]

well I've booked my car in though i have been give the price of 5500 for install. he is a helpful guy answered all my questions. getting the valve seats done while the engines apart.

[lease1]

I paid $4725 for mine fitted with a 110L torpedo tank, minus $1750 rebate left me $2975 out of pocket. Doing 45000km a year I broke even in around 6 months.

[Black VU SS ute]

whats your average usage on gas compared to fuel?

[nvous1]

whats your average usage on gas compared to fuel?

Mine pretty much equates to 25% more gas, although others on this forum have stated better figures, some around 5% difference I have had a tune and it's just the same.

[T2000]

Hey Chris,

Will the purge time be able to be changed when i get mine installed next month? Is yours reduced now and if so is it running well?

Hey Steve!
Sorry mate dont spend as much time on LS1 as I used to & missed your post.
I did not reduce my purge time as the circuit board in my car does not have the switch block as shown in the picture. I am not sure whether any of the LiLPG setups in Australia have the version of the circuit board with the DIP switches installed.
After thinking about this again I will have to have another look at mine and see whether there are bridges hard soldered to the circuit board in place of the DIP switches. If so then it may still be possible to vary the purge time, but it will require a little courage and a willing nerd.
I'll have another look and might even tackle it in the future.
Having more fun with the blower and other projects at the moment though!

LiLPG + Embryo Cam + Supercharger = Fun, Fast & Economical :)

Cheers, Chris

[T2000]

Mine pretty much equates to 25% more gas, although others on this forum have stated better figures, some around 5% difference I have had a tune and it's just the same.

Just logged ~250km, 50Lt LPG, ~4.5 hrs driving, Avg Speed 48kph.
Some highway, some traffic (stop go) & some yeehaa moments.
LiLPG, Rotrex SuperCharger & Baby Cam.

Pretty happy with those numbers considering that there is still room for improving the current tune.

You should not be using 25% more - personally I would get that checked.

[xshore]

I paid $4725 for mine fitted with a 110L torpedo tank, minus $1750 rebate left me $2975 out of pocket. Doing 45000km a year I broke even in around 6 months.

I find it ridiculous that a gas conversion costs $5000.

[HSVREDSLED]

Would love to see everyones usage and savings.

If you are using 25% more gas than petrol, then thats a savings of only $25 a tank. Based on a tank a week, it will take you 3-4 years to break even!

[acecv8]

i've got an excel spreadsheet that i made up and fill it in when i can remember, i'll post the screen shots up when i'm back from work.
i'm definately saving money with the LPG system with a baby cam in my ve GTS, and i use onpar or not a tad more lpg then petrol. as t2000 said there must be something wrong with your setup

[feistl]

Would love to see everyones usage and savings.

If you are using 25% more gas than petrol, then thats a savings of only $25 a tank. Based on a tank a week, it will take you 3-4 years to break even!

An LiLPG will get the same economy from LPG as petrol.

If your spending $100 a week on fuel, LPG would be saving you around $60-70 per week. A $3500 conversion cost (out of pocket) will be recouped in just over 1 year (59 weeks with a saving of $60 per week).

If you keep the car for 5 years, you'll have saved around $12,000 in running costs. So considering the higher power output and fuel savings, i would consider that pretty good value for money.

[nvous1]

Would love to see everyones usage and savings.

If you are using 25% more gas than petrol, then thats a savings of only $25 a tank. Based on a tank a week, it will take you 3-4 years to break even!

Lucky I do approximately 40k per year so it only took 16 months from my calculations, that was back in oct 08 so definate savings now.
Matt



i've got an excel spreadsheet that i made up and fill it in when i can remember, i'll post the screen shots up when i'm back from work.
i'm definately saving money with the LPG system with a baby cam in my ve GTS, and i use onpar or not a tad more lpg then petrol. as t2000 said there must be something wrong with your setup

Who was your installer and have you had it tuned to the gas or dual tune?

So how close is your displayed usage compared to your actual?
Matt

[acecv8]

Matt,

I got the car done in WA by the car doctor in port kennedy, very neat install done.
i drove around for a year on a single tune wainting for my tuner to do dual tables but unfortunately he used HP tuners, So i employed the services of OZTrack a few months ago, he reflashed my car with efi live and enabled the ethanol tables and i hardwired a a 12v pin into the ecu to let it know it's running on lpg at the time and i have noticed a difference in economy and performance. when i'm back from work ( im fifo ) i will put up the excel sheet showing you the differences.

to be honest i haven't looked at the displayed usage but will keep an eye on it now, as i usually work out what i've put in the tank.

[nvous1]

Matt,

I got the car done in WA by the car doctor in port kennedy, very neat install done.
i drove around for a year on a single tune wainting for my tuner to do dual tables but unfortunately he used HP tuners, So i employed the services of OZTrack a few months ago, he reflashed my car with efi live and enabled the ethanol tables and i hardwired a a 12v pin into the ecu to let it know it's running on lpg at the time and i have noticed a difference in economy and performance. when i'm back from work ( im fifo ) i will put up the excel sheet showing you the differences.

to be honest i haven't looked at the displayed usage but will keep an eye on it now, as i usually work out what i've put in the tank.


Thanks ace
Looking forward to the results.

[lease1]

I find it ridiculous that a gas conversion costs $5000.

I find it ridiculous that 98 RON cost $1.60 a litre

[T2000]

I find it ridiculous that 98 RON cost $1.60 a litre

I find it ridiculous that Holden chose to copy your ute when they designed the new VE II Thunder!:jester:

Seriously though if people dont see the value in investing in a quality conversion then that is their choice... then they can "contribute" to the forums bitching and moaning that LPG is not as good as petrol.

Wise investments are rarely insignificant nor do they realise short term gains.

Yes it is expensive, but it is quality and will provide significant return on your investment long term. Name any other investment where you can return around 1% on your capital each week? Or 50% pa? (assuming you are saving $40 per week on a $4000 spend)

A tuned LiLPG setup will cost only a little more than a full exhaust, OTR and tune (after cash back). And it will produce a bigger gain in RWKW and save you at least a case of beer each and every week that you own it.

[feistl]

Name any other investment where you can return around 1% on your capital each week? Or 50% pa? (assuming you are saving $40 per week on a $4000 spend)


AND not pay tax on that return. If your getting a 50% return on any other investment, you'll be paying at least 30% tax on that.

[sikhabib]

i just got my ute put on jtg and im really happy with it so far, but has anyone else noticed that the lpg tank level seems to drop over night?
im thinking i have a leak cause if i get home the night before and the tank level is low (but not empty), the next morning i cant run on gas till i fill up cause the jtg just beeps saying its empty
could different ambient temperature cause this to happen?
i havent noticed any gas smell around the car

cheers

[T2000]

i just got my ute put on jtg and im really happy with it so far, but has anyone else noticed that the lpg tank level seems to drop over night?
im thinking i have a leak cause if i get home the night before and the tank level is low (but not empty), the next morning i cant run on gas till i fill up cause the jtg just beeps saying its empty
could different ambient temperature cause this to happen?
i havent noticed any gas smell around the car

cheers
Temperature definitely effects the effective volume of LPG in the tank. Hot days you will get less in at the pump. Pretty sure you should not be having issues the next morning caused by temperature. If you do have a leak it would have to be at the tank though... once the engine stops running the lock-offs isolate the tank.
Definitely get it checked... my tank has never lost volume overnight or suffered the conditions that you describe - so I am guessing you may have a slight leak.

GOOD LUCK!

Cheers, Chris

[HSV Listy]

i just got my ute put on jtg and im really happy with it so far, but has anyone else noticed that the lpg tank level seems to drop over night?
im thinking i have a leak cause if i get home the night before and the tank level is low (but not empty), the next morning i cant run on gas till i fill up cause the jtg just beeps saying its empty
could different ambient temperature cause this to happen?
i havent noticed any gas smell around the car

cheers

Those 4 lights on the LPG guages are not exactly known for their great accuracy. I ignor mine and just go by km travelled or when I just start to feel the tank getting low by the pumps getting a tiny bit noisy. Easy to do after a few fill up and you will get the hang of it. I have read there is a fix for the guage accurary issue but noting I can do about up here so have not persured it

[akumaa]

i've got an excel spreadsheet that i made up and fill it in when i can remember, i'll post the screen shots up when i'm back from work.
i'm definately saving money with the LPG system with a baby cam in my ve GTS, and i use onpar or not a tad more lpg then petrol. as t2000 said there must be something wrong with your setup

post!!! i want to see calculations.



does servicing the gas conversion cost more or an ordinary service will do?

[ratter]

if i get home the night before and the tank level is low (but not empty), the next morning i cant run on gas till i fill up cause the jtg just beeps saying its empty
could different ambient temperature cause this to happen?
i havent noticed any gas smell around the car

cheers

The switch back to petrol is related to tank pressure, which normally gas level will dictate to what pressure is in the tank, with a very low level and some warmth it is possible that the car would still be driving on lpg, but the tank would cool overnight and the pressure would be down compared to when warm, so it may be possible that it has dropped below the required pressure to run on lpg.

[sikhabib]

thanks guys, im getting it checked over by the installer tomorrow just to be sure

[acecv8]

Sorry i totaly forgot about this.
here is my LPG log, not really up to date but you get the idea.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2r5ruph.png

Since getting the car re tuned with dual tables consumption is a bit better now and more response.
The car does still drink quite a bit in stop start traffic which is expected for an cammed and auto car so thats why the numbers are a bit over the place but you get the idea.

[T2000]

Just thought I would add a quick note here to anyone who doubts what sort of power a good LiLPG setup can deliver.

I hope "Humble pie" tastes like $hit because a couple of "experts" made it clear that I didnt know what I was talking about and I would not be able to make good Horsepower on LPG.... eat up fellas!

LiLPG delivered the goods and after almost melting the rear tyres trying to get grip the dyno operator said about 5500rpm was about the limit before wheelspin made any further logging impossible. This is despite lots of strapping on the dyno. Given that the combo should easily deliver nearly 7000rpm I can only guess what the final figure might be? There was absolutely no sign that the iCom system was anywhere near max - AFR's were right where they needed to be.

5500rpm & 358rwkw - yep "you cant make power on LPG" :slap:
(BTW power differential was LPG> PULP by approx 30rwkw)

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/car/Rotrex/1957304085.png

[Black VU SS ute]

I finally got my car on LiLpg today ran great but as i was playing on the way home I noticed at about 2000 rpm the car hesitates when accelerating in 4th or 5th.
any idea's?

[PoweredByCNG]

I finally got my car on LiLpg today ran great but as i was playing on the way home I noticed at about 2000 rpm the car hesitates when accelerating in 4th or 5th.
any idea's?

What is your ignition system like? Replaced the spark plugs lately? LPG is a very spark-sensitive fuel and any problems with ignition will show up on LPG well before they show up on petrol.

[Peter B - CV8]

What is your ignition system like? Replaced the spark plugs lately? LPG is a very spark-sensitive fuel and any problems with ignition will show up on LPG well before they show up on petrol.

Seconded here (from previous experience). Plugs, leads & coilpacks need to be top notch order with LPG.

[Black VU SS ute]

ok I've done new leads (no change) tried my old plugs in good condition (no change so still in the engine) the new plugs were bosch super ----- double platinum jobs. Havent done coils yet will swap over come mates ones to see.
Also with the car fisrt thing in the morning after the 1min startup on fuel when i try to drive off in gas it dont like it one bit, it will try and stall out it misses so bad, till over the 2 - 2500rpm range or get the load off the engine. then when warm just in the higher gears does it miss at the same area... funny how it doesnt do it in 1st or 2nd.. no matter how much i get it shit

[T2000]

Take it back to the fitter & have the calibration checked.
Mixtures may be off.

[etrocket]

Just got 470 km from a 75l tank (42bucks). Can't complain about that.

[Gmfan]

So jtg injected gas is going to be my next mod for my ls1 wagon. My tuner uses hp tuners. Can they not do 2 separate tunes for petrol and gas with hp tuners? Can you have multiple tunes on the pcm's or is that only a feature available with gen 4's and ecm's? How much real world difference will there be between a 'compromise' tune and twin tunes for the separate fuels? Obviously getting a tune done using efi live would mean wiping pcm and paying for scratch tunes so would want to know if it would be worth the expense?

[LuisS]

So jtg injected gas is going to be my next mod for my ls1 wagon. My tuner uses hp tuners. Can they not do 2 separate tunes for petrol and gas with hp tuners? Can you have multiple tunes on the pcm's or is that only a feature available with gen 4's and ecm's? How much real world difference will there be between a 'compromise' tune and twin tunes for the separate fuels? Obviously getting a tune done using efi live would mean wiping pcm and paying for scratch tunes so would want to know if it would be worth the expense?

Only available for E38 controller & for tuners using EFI Live
on LS1 PCM you can't enable E85 tables ( they don't have them )

You could always get yourself one of those "twin tune" LS1 ecu's.

A compromise tune will give you similar power on both fuels, but optimizing LPG can add as much as 20 rwkw , not to mention torque .

[Gmfan]

Where can i get twin tune enabled pcm's from? Google isn't turning up much.

[amckiwi]

A compromise tune will give you similar power on both fuels, but optimizing LPG can add as much as 20 rwkw , not to mention torque .

Hi Luis

Can you please explain the difference in laymans terms between a compromise tune and an optimized (your spelling) tune.

My untuned L98 has 10 more nm's in the mid range is this due to the intercooler effect when the liquid turns into a gas?
I only lost 2 rwks peak power as well which i am happy with.
The ute is a 9.5 model year does this have the ability to run two tuns optimised for each fuel?
The ute also seems smoother when running on gas am very happy with the job Auto Gas Injection did.
Cheers
Stu

[LuisS]

Hi Luis

Can you please explain the difference in laymans terms between a compromise tune and an optimized (your spelling) tune.

My untuned L98 has 10 more nm's in the mid range is this due to the intercooler effect when the liquid turns into a gas?
I only lost 2 rwks peak power as well which i am happy with.
The ute is a 9.5 model year does this have the ability to run two tuns optimised for each fuel?
The ute also seems smoother when running on gas am very happy with the job Auto Gas Injection did.
Cheers
Stu

Layman's terms? easy ! ....and yes , your ute can be done

The difference between a std & an optimized LPG tune .. ( can be spelt either way afaik :) )...

Pretty much what you have and what you "could" have is the same as tuned vs untuned - except the "tuned" lpg will make a much bigger difference.

Speak to Sheppo , or call in if you like , I can bore you with dyno sheets :)

p.s good to hear you're happy , I'll pass it on !

[ratter]

a tune optimized for LPG only can have more spark advance than petrol could handle

[xshore]

What is your ignition system like? Replaced the spark plugs lately? LPG is a very spark-sensitive fuel and any problems with ignition will show up on LPG well before they show up on petrol.

Interesting, why's that?

[Ruger]

Lpg is much harder to ignite so the ignition system has to be in good shape. Bosch and ngk have lpg specific catalogues. Im using ngk lpg plugs and am very happy but mine is vapour injection
mine gets 350km to the tank so the money for liquid injection seems worth it. I find a big variance with the brand of lpg. So check around. Im happy with unigas

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk

[T2000]

a tune optimized for LPG only can have more spark advance than petrol could handle

Only in the bottom end unless my research and DIY testing is mistaken. :confused:

Comparatively to Petrol; LPG burns slower at low RPM or small throttle openings (due to its slower flame front). BUT LPG burns faster at higher RPMs and when at wide open throttle. This means that compared to petrol you need (alot) more advance at low RPM but less at high RPM.

Anyone else here tuning for LiLPG that would like to share their experience with this?

[lidar]

Only in the bottom end unless my research and DIY testing is mistaken. :confused:

Comparatively to Petrol; LPG burns slower at low RPM or small throttle openings (due to its slower flame front). BUT LPG burns faster at higher RPMs and when at wide open throttle. This means that compared to petrol you need (alot) more advance at low RPM but less at high RPM.

Anyone else here tuning for LiLPG that would like to share their experience with this?

Yes please more info needed. So should i be using special spark plugs? The installer did not mention it??? If yes what type?

[LuisS]

Only in the bottom end unless my research and DIY testing is mistaken. :confused:

Comparatively to Petrol; LPG burns slower at low RPM or small throttle openings (due to its slower flame front). BUT LPG burns faster at higher RPMs and when at wide open throttle. This means that compared to petrol you need (alot) more advance at low RPM but less at high RPM.

Anyone else here tuning for LiLPG that would like to share their experience with this?

Just keep in mind that most of that theory was based around the old draw-through vapour LPG setups.

Rather than "need" more advance , with liquid LPG it's "can tolerate" a lot more before detonation....and not only at low rpms:)

re. spark plugs , we generally use NGK bpr6fs , gapped to 1.0

[ratter]

the turbo cars I have done benefit from more advance everywhere.

would be interested in reading about the change in flame front speed though

[LuisS]

the turbo cars I have done benefit from more advance everywhere.

would be interested in reading about the change in flame front speed though

Haven't you read that yet Mick ? that is in the JTG manual , just after Hilbert's thesis on:

" Henway hysteresis & delta piecost proportioning" - generally only acts when barometric pressure exceeds the bilenear output of the venouli chamber pfoofer .

I'll explain on Monday :rofl::)

[ratter]

:rofl: you need help mate. :goodjob:

[LuisS]

:rofl: you need help mate. :goodjob:

gas fumes...

[Black VU SS ute]

Take it back to the fitter & have the calibration checked.
Mixtures may be off.

cheers for the info, it goes back wednesday for the leak check and getting the next injector size up.
I'm currently getting 425km out of a tank, which is only 125km less than petrol for about 64ltrs so i'm happy az

[feistl]

Hey guys,

Couple of more questions on LiLPG...

BTW Luis, im still planning on getting my VX converted over to LiLPG and getting you to tune the harrop hurricane manifold ive got... But recently my gearbox decided it would much rather be an entertainer and subsequently blew itself into approximately 8.4 billion peices. As such, theres been a heap of unplanned cost in rebuilding my driveline. On the positive side, im now considering a worked LS7 as opposed to my current stroked LS1. So EVENTUALLY we'll get there, but looks to be ~6 months away.

Has anyone sucsessfully run an active/active dual tank setup? (EG 2 tanks joined and running together?).
What is the biggest LPG injectors on the market? How much power can they run before you need to switch to dual injectors per cylinder?
Would it be possible to run dual injectors on a hurricane intake?

Can a LiLPG setup run both LPG and petrol? I was told and thought that LiLPG is LPG only, but a mate is getting his prado done in the next few weeks and was supposedly told he could run petrol or lpg?

Cheers, Errol.

[lidar]

Hey guys,

Couple of more questions on LiLPG...

BTW Luis, im still planning on getting my VX converted over to LiLPG and getting you to tune the harrop hurricane manifold ive got... But recently my gearbox decided it would much rather be an entertainer and subsequently blew itself into approximately 8.4 billion peices. As such, theres been a heap of unplanned cost in rebuilding my driveline. On the positive side, im now considering a worked LS7 as opposed to my current stroked LS1. So EVENTUALLY we'll get there, but looks to be ~6 months away.

Has anyone sucsessfully run an active/active dual tank setup? (EG 2 tanks joined and running together?).
What is the biggest LPG injectors on the market? How much power can they run before you need to switch to dual injectors per cylinder?
Would it be possible to run dual injectors on a hurricane intake?

Can a LiLPG setup run both LPG and petrol? I was told and thought that LiLPG is LPG only, but a mate is getting his prado done in the next few weeks and was supposedly told he could run petrol or lpg?

Cheers, Errol.

I have the Orbital LPG injection. You can choose what you want to run. It does switch over automatically when either runs out. You dont even feel it. Same goes with higher revs (above 5200 I think. T2000 will know) switches back to fuel to save any damage to the engine....:confused:

[feistl]

I have the Orbital LPG injection. You can choose what you want to run. It does switch over automatically when either runs out. You dont even feel it. Same goes with higher revs (above 5200 I think. T2000 will know) switches back to fuel to save any damage to the engine....:confused:

Might be a problem for me though, engine is almost always above 5000rpm as its a track car.

Im hoping to get dual 68L tanks in the back for a total capacity of about 120L of LPG. But would be nice to be able to run on petrol (from a 20L cell) in an emergency.

Thanks for the reply though.

[HSV Listy]

The track use on the LI LPG you do have to be wary you have enough gas. At full reves it goes through the gas real quick. Mine started to change over the petrol with only using 35 litres and not the normal 55 it would use before changing over. They recon it may have been surge from side to side and made the level sensor change over quicker. To prevent this I pulled the three fuses and reset the system between races. Seems to let me use all the LPG right until it starts t chug just before it changes to petrol again.
If you do a race car and funds permit it would be a good idea to get one baffle in the tank to assist with the side to side surge of the tank once it starts to get a bit lower. Or like you said two smaller tanks but with smaller tanks it means less usable fuel. I have a 80L tank and can just get 58-69 liters gas in it.

You may have read but I use the Harrop Hurricane 8TB with LI LPG done by APS. Got another motor going in at the end of next week so it will be back on the road and racing again. All good. The race spec US motor will be next year so it will sit on blocks unti next season. Too late to put it in now at the end of the race season.

[ratter]

I have the Orbital LPG injection. You can choose what you want to run. It does switch over automatically when either runs out. You dont even feel it. Same goes with higher revs (above 5200 I think. T2000 will know) switches back to fuel to save any damage to the engine....:confused:

JTG will run to what ever revs with out switching to fuel, and running on gas will not damage the motor if it is set up correctly, the other brand switches back because the system does not flow enough to support the power, and is not tuneable also

[T2000]

Just keep in mind that most of that theory was based around the old draw-through vapour LPG setups.

Rather than "need" more advance , with liquid LPG it's "can tolerate" a lot more before detonation....and not only at low rpms:)

re. spark plugs , we generally use NGK bpr6fs , gapped to 1.0

Hi Luis - thanks for the input!... and yours & ratters' highly intellectual quoting and interpretation of some laws of physics and chemistry which will (despite my best efforts) always be a loooooooong way beyond my comprehension.

I accept & appreciate your input on this and assume that you have lots of results to confirm that more timing everywhere is beneficial? I have bought a few hours of dyno time here & there to try to test what I have read... but not enough to come up with a solid strategy to achieving Minimum timing for Best Torque... finding knock and backing off a few degrees is not really a valid strategy for ULP and even less effective for LPG. So finding the sweet spot is not easy...

I had plans on returning to the track (on a private drag day) with 10 or so pre-prepared tunes (identical except spark tables) so that I could compare back to back to back and analyse the acceleration achieved in different RPM zones in an attempt to build the optimal WOT high octane spark table (flex fuel adj table)

Not sure how much of a pioneer i am here... diy tuning, lilpg and centrifugal supercharged... i get the feeling i might be on my own ?

More than willing to share & swap real world results and ideas though ;)


Cheers,

Chris

[sikhabib]

Hi Luis - thanks for the input!... and yours & ratters' highly intellectual quoting and interpretation of some laws of physics and chemistry which will (despite my best efforts) always be a loooooooong way beyond my comprehension.

I accept & appreciate your input on this and assume that you have lots of results to confirm that more timing everywhere is beneficial? I have bought a few hours of dyno time here & there to try to test what I have read... but not enough to come up with a solid strategy to achieving Minimum timing for Best Torque... finding knock and backing off a few degrees is not really a valid strategy for ULP and even less effective for LPG. So finding the sweet spot is not easy...

I had plans on returning to the track (on a private drag day) with 10 or so pre-prepared tunes (identical except spark tables) so that I could compare back to back to back and analyse the acceleration achieved in different RPM zones in an attempt to build the optimal WOT high octane spark table (flex fuel adj table)

Not sure how much of a pioneer i am here... diy tuning, lilpg and centrifugal supercharged... i get the feeling i might be on my own ?

More than willing to share & swap real world results and ideas though ;)


Cheers,

Chris

haha i thought i was the only one
my cars a genttrbb ls1, jtg and diy hptuners

ive had gas on my car for about a month now but havent really had a chance to tune it yet. i have a difference of around 7% ltft between banks so ive been staying out of boost and just cruising at pt for work. im finally going to get time on sunday to pull apart my exhaust and fix up all my exhuast leaks, then if i have time im going to pressurise the intake and check for leaks.
hopefully this will even the banks out and then i can really start tunning the car.

did you get twin pumps installed? whats your calibrator size? (mine are 0.95mm)
what petrol injectors are you running?
did you have trouble getting your petrol injectors to match the same afrs as gas around idle due to the difference in pulsewiths?
my idle pulsewith for.....
gas injectors was 2.5ms
60lb injectors at idle were 1.6ms @ 58psi rail pressure
stock injectors 3ms @ 58psi rail pressure
and 42s were 2.1ms @ 58psi rail pressure

i had my 60lb injectors in to start with and i couldnt lean them out enough with the tune setup for gas, then i put in my stock injectors but they were to lean compared to the gas.
finally i put in some 42lb injectors and turned my fuel pressure down until i had 2.5ms pw at idle and its perfect! the change from petrol to lpg is unnoticable at any rpm and car runs really well on both fuels

anyway glad theres another mad man out there and looking forward to sharing tuning ideas

cheers
ronny

[T2000]

Hi Ronny!

You said it!!!! - so good to know that I not alone in this whole forced induction DIY tuning journey.... LOL it appears that madness does not make you unique ;)

I feel your pain re the continual fault finding routine, that was the least fun of my journey but now I think I am almost ready for some constant full throttle fun! Good luck with your exhaust/ intake shakedown!!!

I am still running single pumps (standard petrol system and the only mod to the LiLPG system is that the vac reg has been adjusted to ensure max flow)

Calibrators? Not sure... I asked Kurt to give me the max calibrator size that my green cap LiLPG injectors could handle and I have leaned them back from there. (They were supplying heaps more than my 47lb Harrop supplied ULP injectors)
I couldn't get any solid data for my ULP injectors in an E38 or E40 tune so have gone with "best guess" and incrementally adjusted until close to optimal.
Rail pressures are all stock VE. - not sure of my pulsewidths... I'll check & get back to you.

I am; Tuning with EFI-Live
- Running speed density and a custom operating system.
LPG tune is populated in the "Flex Fuel" tables and is manually switchable - so there is no "compromise" and I am searching for the absolute best result on LPG and dont need to make any concessions to make ULP "safe".

Nice to meet you Ronny!!!
Where is "htrfutyf"? - Catching up to compare tunes & ideas would be awesome!
If not I can setup some shared space on the interwebs ;)

Regards , Chris.

[LuisS]

Hey guys,

Couple of more questions on LiLPG...


Has anyone sucsessfully run an active/active dual tank setup? (EG 2 tanks joined and running together?).
What is the biggest LPG injectors on the market? How much power can they run before you need to switch to dual injectors per cylinder?
Would it be possible to run dual injectors on a hurricane intake?

Can a LiLPG setup run both LPG and petrol? I was told and thought that LiLPG is LPG only, but a mate is getting his prado done in the next few weeks and was supposedly told he could run petrol or lpg?

Cheers, Errol.


Dual tank , AFAIK , not possible .

Common injector , not yet , however the JTG "HP" system - SIDI does that very thing ( runs LPG through the petrol injectors )

Only 2 injectors for LPG at the moment , they both flow the same but different flow characteristics.





Not sure how much of a pioneer i am here... diy tuning, lilpg and centrifugal supercharged... i get the feeling i might be on my own ?


Chris

No , you're not :) - check PM






did you get twin pumps installed? whats your calibrator size? (mine are 0.95mm)
what petrol injectors are you running?
did you have trouble getting your petrol injectors to match the same afrs as gas around idle due to the difference in pulsewiths?
my idle pulsewith for.....
gas injectors was 2.5ms
60lb injectors at idle were 1.6ms @ 58psi rail pressure
stock injectors 3ms @ 58psi rail pressure
and 42s were 2.1ms @ 58psi rail pressure

i had my 60lb injectors in to start with and i couldnt lean them out enough with the tune setup for gas, then i put in my stock injectors but they were to lean compared to the gas.
finally i put in some 42lb injectors and turned my fuel pressure down until i had 2.5ms pw at idle and its perfect! the change from petrol to lpg is unnoticable at any rpm and car runs really well on both fuels

anyway glad theres another mad man out there and looking forward to sharing tuning ideas

cheers
ronny


Ronny in my experience , 42lb is the upper limit to where you can match the LPG injector - above that you have no hope.

Do you have the blue or the green injectors?

[sikhabib]

Hi Ronny!

You said it!!!! - so good to know that I not alone in this whole forced induction DIY tuning journey.... LOL it appears that madness does not make you unique ;)

I feel your pain re the continual fault finding routine, that was the least fun of my journey but now I think I am almost ready for some constant full throttle fun! Good luck with your exhaust/ intake shakedown!!!

I am still running single pumps (standard petrol system and the only mod to the LiLPG system is that the vac reg has been adjusted to ensure max flow)

Calibrators? Not sure... I asked Kurt to give me the max calibrator size that my green cap LiLPG injectors could handle and I have leaned them back from there. (They were supplying heaps more than my 47lb Harrop supplied ULP injectors)
I couldn't get any solid data for my ULP injectors in an E38 or E40 tune so have gone with "best guess" and incrementally adjusted until close to optimal.
Rail pressures are all stock VE. - not sure of my pulsewidths... I'll check & get back to you.

I am; Tuning with EFI-Live
- Running speed density and a custom operating system.
LPG tune is populated in the "Flex Fuel" tables and is manually switchable - so there is no "compromise" and I am searching for the absolute best result on LPG and dont need to make any concessions to make ULP "safe".

Nice to meet you Ronny!!!
Where is "htrfutyf"? - Catching up to compare tunes & ideas would be awesome!
If not I can setup some shared space on the interwebs ;)

Regards , Chris.

hey chris
im up on the central coast (gosford) once i get my car sorted it would be good to mess around with the tuning together, maybe we could hire out a dyno for a while??

i was going to get a twin flash pcm as the ls1 pcm doesnt have ethanol tables or switchable tunes but im going to stick with my stock pcm as im driving on gas 99.999% of the time and petrol startup/running is great as is

i got alot done today, ive pulled both turbos/manifolds/dump pipes out and im taking them down to swansons gaskets tomorrow to see if he can make up some aluminium gaskets for me. the gentt instructions say to just use hi temp silcon but ive never had much luck with it. my exhaust leaks were actually quite bad on both sides where the stock manifolds meet the pipe extention pipes.

[sikhabib]

Ronny in my experience , 42lb is the upper limit to where you can match the LPG injector - above that you have no hope.

Do you have the blue or the green injectors?

Thanks for all your help so far luis (via pm's) you've been very helpfull mate!

i have the light green gas injectors

[Black VU SS ute]

well had the system checked and bigger calibrators put in, it made the car run worse so had them put the small ones back in as i lose power and had misfired in every gear at the 2000rpm range. I have to take it back to Mitch (Wa Performance centre) get him to adjust a the timing for cold starts and at that rpm range.

[sikhabib]

i just finished welding up my exhuast manifolds and putting new gaskets on all joins in exhuast. i am confident i have no exhaust leaks now but my fuel trims and still uneven bank to bank.

i have pressurised the intake manifold with 12psi from an air compressor and it looks like i have leaks around a couple of the lpg jets that was drilled into the manifold, i guess this is the next thing to fix to even up the trims

Luis, T2000, anybody?? whats the best way to seal these up? is there a particular type of glue or something i can use? (jb weld??)

ill swing by the installer and have a chat to him soon but id like to here from you guys before i go back

cheers

[T2000]

i just finished welding up my exhuast manifolds and putting new gaskets on all joins in exhuast. i am confident i have no exhaust leaks now but my fuel trims and still uneven bank to bank.

i have pressurised the intake manifold with 12psi from an air compressor and it looks like i have leaks around a couple of the lpg jets that was drilled into the manifold, i guess this is the next thing to fix to even up the trims

Luis, T2000, anybody?? whats the best way to seal these up? is there a particular type of glue or something i can use? (jb weld??)

ill swing by the installer and have a chat to him soon but id like to here from you guys before i go back

cheers
Sorry mate no idea.

I am not a LPG fitter or a mechanic... just a DEY nut (Do Everything Yourself) who likes modding and tuning.

Given that these parts were added to your vehicle by the installer who is presumably providing and supporting the warranty which is backed by ALPGW/iCom then personally I would have the installer rectify the fault.

BUT if you do want to fix it yourself...
So you are saying that the brass threads are leaking where the fittings screw into the manifold? If I did have to fix this I would probably look at using a non-hardening Permatex (no4?)

Good Luck Mate!

Regards, Chris

[exquisit_]

i asked in a seperate thread
(http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?156445-anyone-have-a-high-kay-lpg-ls1-how-healthy-are-they&p=1996315#post1996315)

but i'll also ask here...
how are ls1's which have over 100k or 200k kms on an injected liquid lpg system??
any problems with the motor as a result of using lpg??

[black_friday]

Can someone tell me if there is a difference between a random JTG installer or a sponsor such as APS? Of course I would prefer to use a forum sponsor but driving to Frankston isnt really practical for me in the northern suburbs.

Theres a bunch of info out there on fuel economy on lpg but will i get like for like economy on a straight lilpg install or does it need to be 'tuned'? I dont wanna be $4000k out of pocket with a non sponsor and then use 20% more fuel if i could just go the traditional lpg mixer route for the same result. Ive basically got a bog stock vy ss wagon with a catback. extractors and mafless would b nice but funds dont permit at this stage so they are not an option. I average 10.5l/100km to and from work now and online calculators suggest up to $150 a month savings a month in fuel on lpg. If thats the case i will probably book it in next month but if the usage is gonna go through the roof i will forget about it

Any feedback would be appreciated

Jarrod

[LuisS]

Can someone tell me if there is a difference between a random JTG installer or a sponsor such as APS? Of course I would prefer to use a forum sponsor but driving to Frankston isnt really practical for me in the northern suburbs.

Theres a bunch of info out there on fuel economy on lpg but will i get like for like economy on a straight lilpg install or does it need to be 'tuned'? I dont wanna be $4000k out of pocket with a non sponsor and then use 20% more fuel if i could just go the traditional lpg mixer route for the same result. Ive basically got a bog stock vy ss wagon with a catback. extractors and mafless would b nice but funds dont permit at this stage so they are not an option. I average 10.5l/100km to and from work now and online calculators suggest up to $150 a month savings a month in fuel on lpg. If thats the case i will probably book it in next month but if the usage is gonna go through the roof i will forget about it

Any feedback would be appreciated

Jarrod

I wont bother to entertain your first question , however for a standard(ish) 5.7 you might want to have a good look at a vapour injection kit such as EMER rather than JTG Liquid . A bit cheaper and also some very good results can be obtained.
Regardless , you wont get 10.5/100 on LPG , but then again you wont be paying $1.60 per litre at the bowser.

Get in contact with ALPGW or have a look on their website for an installer in the northern suburbs

[amckiwi]

Can someone tell me if there is a difference between a random JTG installer or a sponsor such as APS? Of course I would prefer to use a forum sponsor but driving to Frankston isnt really practical for me in the northern suburbs.
Any feedback would be appreciated
Jarrod
I went from the North to it installed there, it is only a 15 minute walk to the train.
I am happy with the service provided and would recommend them even though I had teething problems with my setup.
Once tuned by Luis I get ten extra RWKW and twenty five NM more peak torque on LPG.
Stu

[black_friday]

I wont bother to entertain your first question , however for a standard(ish) 5.7 you might want to have a good look at a vapour injection kit such as EMER rather than JTG Liquid . A bit cheaper and also some very good results can be obtained.
Regardless , you wont get 10.5/100 on LPG , but then again you wont be paying $1.60 per litre at the bowser.

Get in contact with ALPGW or have a look on their website for an installer in the northern suburbs

Thanks for the reply Luis, I have had a quote on a EMER setup as I was told it was quite good. Can you tell me though what sort of tuning is required after the install?

You say that good results can be obtained, but does this require the car to be tuned afterwards by someone who knows ls1's, similar to going MAFLESS?

[whitels1ss]

One thing I recently found out is that these systems need servicing at least every 12 months or 15,000 kms.

They are not like the old time systems these have 2 filters that need to be replaced otherwise
the flow to the injectors gets restricted & with low flow, when the pressure pressure drops the system will
automatically cut out & switch back over to petrol whenever you give it much throttle.

You can buy both filters & seal kits shown in this video on ebay for around $30 delivered.

I thought this video was quite well done :goodjob:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiDwWjVCQSg

[BLACKVE]

Amazing how much gunk I get in our VE dual fueler, lots of black crap.

Change every 30000kms at 15000 it was cleanish

[whitels1ss]

Amazing how much gunk I get in our VE dual fueler, lots of black crap.

Change every 30000kms at 15000 it was cleanish

Yeah I never knew they even had any serviceable filters
that needed regular changes until I started looking for a reason a car that
feels like it's running out of pressure under throttle & keeps cutting out
of gas & switching itself back over to petrol all the time.

I never even thought that there could be that much gunk in the gas.

I just thought it was worth posting on here so other people know.:cheers:

[whitels1ss]

Change every 30000kms at 15000 it was cleanish

All these systems seem to use the same size filter

what the guy on the video said about his V8 using more fuel & the filter clogs quicker makes sense.

[IJ.]

Always been loads of Crap in LPG, typically a yellow waxy gloop that coats everything..

[amckiwi]

I get service reminder every year from my installer and have been ignoring it
Thanks for the heads up
I recall mixers getting waxed up in the old days
Stu

[whitels1ss]

I get service reminder every year from my installer and have been ignoring it
Thanks for the heads up
I recall mixers getting waxed up in the old days
Stu

Yeah, it was something I never knew before, I just took all the old systems for granted.
When I started troubleshooting the problem with mine I stumbled across that video & it all made sense.

[whitels1ss]

One thing I recently found out is that these systems need servicing at least every 12 months or 15,000 kms.

They are not like the old time systems these have 2 filters that need to be replaced otherwise
the flow to the injectors gets restricted & with low flow, when the pressure pressure drops the system will
automatically cut out & switch back over to petrol whenever you give it much throttle.

You can buy both filters & seal kits shown in this video on ebay for around $30 delivered.

I thought this video was quite well done :goodjob:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiDwWjVCQSg

Well here is a couple of pictures of the filters I removed from mine today.

The liquid filter

3782

& the vapor filter.

3783

As I posted before they are exactly the same filters as you see in the youtube vid so you can see how filthy mine were.

[BLACKVE]

Well here is a couple of pictures of the filters I removed from mine today.

The liquid filter

3782

& the vapor filter.

3783

As I posted before they are exactly the same filters as you see in the youtube vid so you can see how filthy mine were.

Wow that's a mess

[saaz]

The JTG liquid injection system I have uses an inline filter between the fill point and tank, and an in tank filter. Originally the in tank filter was supposed to be changed every so often, but that requirement has been dropped. last time I had the system looked at they found that the original installation place had not even put in an in line filter! That business was sold so I had no recourse to them. I may just do it myself from now on the make sure.

[mrtockley]

The JTG liquid injection system I have uses an inline filter between the fill point and tank, and an in tank filter. Originally the in tank filter was supposed to be changed every so often, but that requirement has been dropped. last time I had the system looked at they found that the original installation place had not even put in an in line filter! That business was sold so I had no recourse to them. I may just do it myself from now on the make sure.

I have a JTG liquid system too. I looked under the bonnet the other day and couldn't see any filters anywhere. I may have to drop it back to A.P. S to see if it needs new filters..

[whitels1ss]

I have a JTG liquid system too. I looked under the bonnet the other day and couldn't see any filters anywhere. I may have to drop it back to A.P. S to see if it needs new filters..

Hey let us know how you go mate.

Perhaps even just phone them & ask?

Pretty sure you will find they have filters on any later model car with injected gas.

[mrtockley]

Hey let us know how you go mate.

Perhaps even just phone them & ask?

Pretty sure you will find they have filters on any later model car with injected gas.

Will do mate.

[HSV Listy]

Should have the inline filter and intake one. My aps system did.

[amckiwi]

Do you need to be a registtered LPG installer to change these filters?

Stu

[whitels1ss]

I just did my own but I think most likely legally you should be licensed. I found it very easy

[Micks]

How do you go there though Ed in case of an Acco then subsequent ins. claim etc? I know worst case scenario but...

[amckiwi]

Mick good Q
My installer wants $185 for an LPG service.
If White was local I might set him up for his assistance
Stu
PS the installer did not specifically say only registered had to do it

[IJ.]

Used to build and fit my own systems, only thing I wasn't legally able to do was connect the service line to the tank...

Had a mate in the industry he used to do that and sign off on it all once complete.

[whitels1ss]

Used to build and fit my own systems, only thing I wasn't legally able to do was connect the service line to the tank...

Had a mate in the industry he used to do that and sign off on it all once complete.

Same sort of thing with me IJ
My ex brother in law is a licensed LPG fitter.
He has checked stuff I have done in the past & certified it.