VE 6.0l on VAPOUR LPG!

[cammm]

So i have booked my car in with ezygas to get the vapour direct injection sprintgas system. The price is $4,150 then less $1,750 rebate. Reason for going the vapour over the new LI is having done my research and speaking with several installers, mechanics etc im not too comfortable with the fact that LI is still in early stages and still has its minor bugs etc where as vapour has proven to be more reliable etc. I'm sure in the future LI systems will be amazing but not willing to take a gamble. The installers say that there will be no power loss what so ever and they provide an engine/ lpg component warranty (as my holden engine warranty is void) and they can do all the log book and gas servicing. Ezygas being a big company also provides some peace of mine if anything does ever go wrong too. The consumption will be around 15% more than petrol but is still a whole lot of savings for me.

Has anyone put their VE 6.0l on VAPOUR lpg if so please share experiences, power, dyno figures before/after etc :)
Thanks.

[PoweredByCNG]

With the Sprint Gas (OMVL Dream XXI) system, you will run into a bottle-neck at the top end of the engine speed range on your V8. The injectors (and possibly the regulator too) will not flow enough gas to ensure that the engine doesn't lean out under full throttle. IIRC, the system is good for 240kW at the flywheel (30kW per injector) without additional assistance. The system will do one of two things if the engine exceeds a specified engine speed depending on how the installer configures the it. It may either revert back to 100% petrol operation when the engine hits the specified speed (e.g. 4500rpm), or it may supplement the gas injection with progressively larger amounts of petrol as the engine speed increases over the specified speed. This is to ensure that the air/fuel ratios remain acceptable. Be sure to discuss this with your installer. I would also advise on discussing the location of the fuel selection switch / gauge and the compliance plate with your installer to ensure that these are installed in a place where you want them installed.

As far as Liquid Injection is concerned, you should be aware that such systems have been operating successfully in Europe for well over a decade. The only reason why Liquid Injection systems took so long to reach Australia is patent disputes with a local company called LPG-Liquid-Inject Ltd. The Liquid Injection systems are therefore already well-proven under different operating conditions. These systems are no more problem-prone than gas injection systems and in fact the JTG system (the most popular and widely available Liquid Injection system in Australia) is much easier to install and calibrate correctly because it does not require or have a separate tune - whatever the petrol system does is what the gas system does. That's the beauty of this system.

If you have the opportunity to change your mind and still prefer a gas injection system, I would recommend opting for one of the two systems available in Australia that uses KEIHIN gas injectors - either EuroGas or Prins. These injectors will flow enough to allow your V8 to operate on LPG under full throttle.

Regards,
Dave

[cammm]

are there any places that can provide a full engine replacement warranty etc on a liquid gas system in melbourne?

[Highway]

Give APS in Frankston a call.

They have installing Liquid lpg right from the beginning !!

Mike

[acecv8]

+1 for APS, they have bee in it for a while now and they have also helped me in W.A.

[cammm]

I gave rob a call from aps and had a chat. I think i might just go ahead with the vapour as reliability and the fact is been done to a lot more 6.0l's than the liquid gives some peace of mind.
He said that there will be no power loss on a good vapour set up and that on liquid i could gain from nothing to 10kw and the extra fuel consumption is very minimal.
I just can't justify the extra $1200 price difference, as to me i may be better off spending that down the track on a maffless tune and decent intake that potentially could give greater output???

http://hp-f.com.au/site/catalog/holden/ve/holden-6-0l-l98/l98g4s-310.html

[Oztrack Tuning]

Many LPG systems for V8s are good for supplying enough fuel for a V6! Im sick of seeing people ripped off by agricultural level systems, be very careful and its sounds like with APS you will be fine.

[PoweredByCNG]

I would recommend going with ALPGW's Gas Injection offering then which is the EuroGas system. It uses an AEB processor which is the same processor used in the Sprint Gas (OMVL), Tartarini, and Landi Renzo systems but the most significant component in the EuroGas system that will benefit you is the Keihin Yellow Dot gas injectors. These will flow enough gas to ensure that your V8 doesn't lean out under hard acceleration. While there is a similar system distributed by Apollo Gas using the same processor and regulator, be aware that the standard Landi Renzo injectors suffer from the same problem as the AEB injectors used with the Sprint Gas system.

Installing a system that is incapable of running an engine all the way to redline on gas in my opinion defeats the purpose of installing such a system!

Regards,
Dave

[King Nothing]

Not a VE 6L, but I drive a 6cyl BA falcon on vapour injection (Landi Renzo system). There can be a power loss, although mine was minimal (3rwkw from 176, bugger all really). Driveability has not been affected at all, I highly recommend it. I use about 15% more gas than petrol, and my fuel cost is about 50% cheaper.

If you do go a vapour system though, be careful as to future mods. As PoweredByCNG has said, you will probably need bigger gas injectors and possibly another converter. I've seen XR6Ts on injected gas with mods, so it's possible to have bigger power on the system, but they have two converters and yellow dot injectors.

[PoweredByCNG]

...but I drive a 6cyl BA falcon on vapour injection (Landi Renzo system). There can be a power loss, although mine was minimal (3rwkw from 176, bugger all really). Driveability has not been affected at all, I highly recommend it. I use about 15% more gas than petrol, and my fuel cost is about 50% cheaper.

What sorta mods do you have to raise your power to 176rwkW? A 3rwkW loss is nothing, but if your getting 176kW from the wheels, I'd say that you'd be running on petrol at the top end because the standard Landi Renzo Omegas injectors only flow enough gas for 180kW (IIRC - at the flywheel) for a 6 cylinder.

Regards,
Dave

[cammm]

I don not plan to do any major power modifications although a maffless tune and CAI would be on the adgenda. Hopefully the sprintgas system will be sufficient.

[King Nothing]

What sorta mods do you have to raise your power to 176rwkW? A 3rwkW loss is nothing, but if your getting 176kW from the wheels, I'd say that you'd be running on petrol at the top end because the standard Landi Renzo Omegas injectors only flow enough gas for 180kW (IIRC - at the flywheel) for a 6 cylinder.

Regards,
Dave

K&N Panel Filter
F6 Typhoon Cold Air Induction lower snorkel
XR6 Turbo upper air intake snorkel
Pacemaker 4490 headers
3" Magnaflow metal cat
XR8 catback exhaust
20% Underdrive
Custom Tune for 175.6 rwkW

Pretty standard result for a NA BA 6 with those mods. Not LS1/XR6T power, but enough for a daily.

I looked at this a little while ago, I think I remember that the system I have will run to 240 fwkw, so I'm about on the limit. Either way I had it tuned to 175.6 rwkw on petrol, got the tune done, they told me it lost 3 rwkw, and there is no noticeable difference in performance between gas and petrol. It might be adding petrol at the top end, but my petrol consumption is so low I believe it's only the warm-up period where petrol is being used.

[tantrum]

was looking at LILPG conversions, but opted out at the last minute due to there being nowhere around my area that sells the LILPG. although from what ive read of people with it, its quality stuff and when tuned, does hella good work and pumping out the power.

[fatbob]

i actually think same - lpgi goodness - I even took car to get it installed, but the tank didn't fit the munro at the time ( and I had short time to get it done )
which led me to believe - it was too young a system just yet - and needed some ironing out
this was a year back - so maybe it more bedded in now ? I read some good and bad - more good than bad ( there a massive lpg thread has so much info in it, it just a ben hur of a read )

[cammm]

there definatley are benifits in LI however for me a can't justify the 1000+ extra as i do not plan to do any major mods id rather save the 1k and do a maffless tune and CAI and see more power for around the same price. That would be enough for me.

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys,

Do remember that the Liquid Injection kits were developed in Europe, where the average size of their cars (and therefore their boots) is much smaller than the average size of Australian cars. In Europe, toroidal tanks are used almost universally and their laws don't mandate the carrying of a spare tyre.

As these kits are released in Australia, new tank specifications needed to be released to comply with our standards (both dimensionally and legally). This is the only reason why a wide selection of tanks aren't available for these systems.

Regards,
Dave

[bogstock]

I have a sprint gas (ezygas) vapour injection system on my ls1.Economy is about 25% worse than perol.The car has been back several times for tuning and an injector emulator replacement. It is still not right.The system has intermittant problems switching back to petrol on light throttle mid to higher rpm,when it happens the car must be turned off to get it back onto lpg.fills are inconsistant, on some pumps in cold weather the 76 litre tank has filled to 89 litres(cut off not working) warmer weather and it will only take 55 to 60 litres.Cost was $4k about 6 months ago.$1300 cheaper than LI.Am i happy with it...not really. Did i think the vapour systems have been around for a while and are sorted...yep.Car has a baby cam ,tune,extractors + exhaust.When it is behaving it is great, it will do full rpm with no switching to petrol no noticable difference in power.If you get a good one it will be great.$40 for 400ks including petrol is damn cheap
good luck

[PoweredByCNG]

Trouble with the Sprint Gas system is that many installers will try and save time by simply using the Auto-Calibrate function. While the Auto-Calibrate works fairly well, it will never be perfect and the system will require fine-tuning in order to run predictably. The AEB processor used with these systems are the best in the business and other leading systems also use it - EuroGas, Apollo/Landi-Renzo, Tartarini and the like.

The issue with tuning is exactly why I recommend the icom JTG Liquid Injection system. This system doesn't have or require a separate tune. Whatever the engine does on petrol, it will do on LPG, but better.

Regards,
Dave

[ash0105]

So i have booked my car in with ezygas to get the vapour direct injection sprintgas system. The price is $4,150 then less $1,750 rebate. Reason for going the vapour over the new LI is having done my research and speaking with several installers, mechanics etc im not too comfortable with the fact that LI is still in early stages and still has its minor bugs etc where as vapour has proven to be more reliable etc. I'm sure in the future LI systems will be amazing but not willing to take a gamble. The installers say that there will be no power loss what so ever and they provide an engine/ lpg component warranty (as my holden engine warranty is void) and they can do all the log book and gas servicing. Ezygas being a big company also provides some peace of mine if anything does ever go wrong too. The consumption will be around 15% more than petrol but is still a whole lot of savings for me.

Has anyone put their VE 6.0l on VAPOUR lpg if so please share experiences, power, dyno figures before/after etc :)
Thanks.

We have our VE SSV 6.0L on the Sprint Gas vapour injection cost us $3840 installer is in hoppers crossing vic. we have now done about 5000ks on this sysytem and im proud to say we are verry happy with the system.
550k's -66L tr's gas Long trip
450k's -city driving
Power is still the same untill you get high up in the rev range then it switches to petrol creating a flat spot. it still allows you to have a bit of fun with out switching but when you realy get serious it will switch over to petrol, so if i pull up next to an xr8 or xr6 turbo at the lights i switch it back to petrol there is no hesitation at all when switching over while idling or normal acceleration the only time the flat spot accur's is under full acceleration at high revs.

[cammm]

thanks ash thats the kind of feedback i was looking for. you don't have any pictures of the boot install by any chance? and is your ssv stock or have you done anything to it.

thanks for the replies

[danielsan]

I have a sprint gas (ezygas) vapour injection system on my ls1.Economy is about 25% worse than perol.The car has been back several times for tuning and an injector emulator replacement. It is still not right.The system has intermittant problems switching back to petrol on light throttle mid to higher rpm,when it happens the car must be turned off to get it back onto lpg.fills are inconsistant, on some pumps in cold weather the 76 litre tank has filled to 89 litres(cut off not working) warmer weather and it will only take 55 to 60 litres.Cost was $4k about 6 months ago.$1300 cheaper than LI.Am i happy with it...not really. Did i think the vapour systems have been around for a while and are sorted...yep.Car has a baby cam ,tune,extractors + exhaust.When it is behaving it is great, it will do full rpm with no switching to petrol no noticable difference in power.If you get a good one it will be great.$40 for 400ks including petrol is damn cheap
good luck


Not getting a full fill in warmer weather is normal, try filling up in the evening.

As Dave said, most installers use the "auto calibrate" feature, whilst this does work well on a standard car, most hi-performance cars wont tune properly with this method. Most installers know stuff all about tuning, so when they have to do it manually they go "duhhhhhh".

I had the same issues when i had my supercharged v6 converted to the OMVL/Sprintgas system, went back about 3 times to the installer then gave up. Bought the cable,dongle and software and did the tuning myself. Theres a thread in the tuning section with more info about doing this.

Properly setup this is still a great LPG system.

[ash0105]

thanks ash thats the kind of feedback i was looking for. you don't have any pictures of the boot install by any chance? and is your ssv stock or have you done anything to it.

thanks for the replies

I can post some pics.

The car is stock except for the twin 2.5 inch X-force cat back.

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[PoweredByCNG]

Power is still the same untill you get high up in the rev range then it switches to petrol creating a flat spot.

I would mention this to your installer when you take the car in for a gas service.

Ask them to set up petrol supplementation (where gas and petrol is injected into the engine at the same time at high revs) and the flat spot should be gone.

Regards,
Dave

[ash0105]

I would mention this to your installer when you take the car in for a gas service.

Ask them to set up petrol supplementation (where gas and petrol is injected into the engine at the same time at high revs) and the flat spot should be gone.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks dave i will ask him.

[PoweredByCNG]

Thanks dave i will ask him.

To clarify, OMVL calls it "petrol addition" in their AEB software.

Here's a screenshot:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4599/06142008051140nf4.png

The system allows high-rev operation on Gas, Petrol or Gas with Petrol addition. You need to tell the installer to choose Petrol addition and set the minimum engine speed of petrol addition appropriately.

Regards,
Dave

[ash0105]

To clarify, OMVL calls it "petrol addition" in their AEB software.

Here's a screenshot:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4599/06142008051140nf4.png

The system allows high-rev operation on Gas, Petrol or Gas with Petrol addition. You need to tell the installer to choose Petrol addition and set the minimum engine speed of petrol addition appropriately.

Regards,
Dave

Dave your link isn't working!

[PoweredByCNG]

Alright, here's a screenshot taken by myself with the software installed on my computer:

http://home.iprimus.com.au/davidkhl/petrol-addition.jpg

Regards,
Dave

[cammm]

The car's been given in. I ended up opting for the donut tank to give a much better factory look and still leave some boot space. The guys said they will need another day s they have to make a frame to mount the tank on to as the wheel well is plastic. Has anyone had any experience with the donut tanks or any pictures? What is the usable capacity too?

[danielsan]

A donut tank gives you around 50 - 55 useable litres.

[PoweredByCNG]

The car's been given in. I ended up opting for the donut tank to give a much better factory look and still leave some boot space. The guys said they will need another day s they have to make a frame to mount the tank on to as the wheel well is plastic. Has anyone had any experience with the donut tanks or any pictures? What is the usable capacity too?

Best of luck to ya. The Sprint Gas system works REALLY well on almost any engine when it's configured properly (petrol addition for high powered engines with competent calibration). It'll be happy days when you get the car back BUT don't expect it to run perfectly from the word 'go' - it will need a couple of thousand km's to bed in before a decent calibration can be achieved. The initial 1500km gas service is therefore CRITICAL, and you will need to return your car to the gas installer every 20,000km or 12 months (whichever comes first) from then on in.

Regards,
Dave

[Oztrack Tuning]

In our systems the auto-calibrate system will not work, the car if it has a standard tune will have short term and long term trims to contend when and it might already be at a high% of correction.

The only way is to clear out all learning and adjust LPG to give the same AFRs as when on petrol at a variety of loads - while taking into account any trims and learned trims.

Most of the time LPG cars are at least 15% out of calibration compared to Petrol when at idle and most get worst from there.

[PoweredByCNG]

That's precisely why I'm a HUGE fan of the ICOM JTG Liquid Injection system. Apart from the initial injector calibration, no further tuning is required for the life of the vehicle (unless you extensively modify the engine, then you'll need to recalibrate the injectors). It is set and forget. If the engine runs well on petrol, it will run even better on LPG providing that the ignition system is up to scratch.

Regards,
Dave

[ash0105]

That's precisely why I'm a HUGE fan of the ICOM JTG Liquid Injection system. Apart from the initial injector calibration, no further tuning is required for the life of the vehicle (unless you extensively modify the engine, then you'll need to recalibrate the injectors). It is set and forget. If the engine runs well on petrol, it will run even better on LPG providing that the ignition system is up to scratch.

Regards,
Dave

out of all the JTG installers i called, you would be supprised on the negitive feedback on the JTG system. fuel ecconomy is not as good as expected, in'tank pumps are failing, price is too high for such a simple system, systems havn't been set and forget cars have been coming back for a re'tune as customers have been unsatisfied with the economy. If the installers don't back the JTG system's then people will be reluctant to purchase.

[PoweredByCNG]

out of all the JTG installers i called, you would be supprised on the negitive feedback on the JTG system. fuel ecconomy is not as good as expected, in'tank pumps are failing, price is too high for such a simple system, systems havn't been set and forget cars have been coming back for a re'tune as customers have been unsatisfied with the economy. If the installers don't back the JTG system's then people will be reluctant to purchase.

A lot of people expect consumption figures with Liquid LPG Injection to be dead on par with petrol but this is simply not achievable if you expect the same level of driveability due to the lower calorific value of LPG fuel. I'm returning around 13-14L/100km with the JTG system on a BA XR6 (petrol consumption is 12L/100km under the same conditions). That is very good in my books, especially considering the fact that idle quality and throttle response is much better when the engine is running on LPG. The reality is, a larger difference between petrol and LPG consumption is possible due to a number of different factors (e.g. short/long term fuel trims, the state of an engine's ignition system and various sensors). Consumption also depends heavily on the type of driving and driving style.

The system never needs to be 'tuned' in the way that a Gas Injection system does. The ONLY thing that needs to be done during the installation process is an injector calibration (like jetting a carburettor). Once this is done, the system is very low maintenance. In addition, the risk of pump failure is minimised by ensuring that you always have a good quantity of LPG in the fuel tank (refuel when the guage shows 1/4 full). It is never a good idea to run a Liquid Injection system dry.

Regarding the cost of the system, there are several factors coming into play. Firstly, you have the usually supply vs. demand thing. Liquid Injection systems are obviously in demand and because only a limited number of installers are working with such systems, it is natural for some installers to take advantage of the situation. In addition, a company known as LPG-Liquid-Inject Ltd. holds a patent associated with Liquid LPG Injection systems and all companies who wish to distribute imported systems must pay licensing fees to them in order to legally distribute their systems in Australia. Personally, I'm not happy with the situation with LPGLI because this company does not have a working, marketable system - they're simply raking in licensing fees without making a contribution to the marketplace. Unacceptable in my opinion.

Regards,
Dave

[ash0105]

The installer's i spoke with had about a 1 to 2 week wait on the LPGLI system they did initially have trouble getting there hands on tanks when the system was released and the demand was hi at the time people were waiting months.

[PoweredByCNG]

The installer's i spoke with had about a 1 to 2 week wait on the LPGLI system they did initially have trouble getting there hands on tanks when the system was released and the demand was hi at the time people were waiting months.

That sounds about right. From what I understand, there is still a very high demand for large external toroidal tanks from Ford Territory owners, so these tanks are in short supply. From what I've seen, the external toroidal tank option on the Territory is the neatest LPG tank installation available for this particular type of vehicle.

Regards,
Dave

[loudvtss]

Do you know what the supply is like for toroidal tanks for a VZ SS? When I was looking into getting LILPG installed there was a wait and couldn't get an answer as to when they would arrive.

[cammm]

Finally picked up my car from ezygas after having it with them for 4 days. (Needed extra time to fit the donut tank cradle.)
Very happy with the service and quality of the install. The guys always kept me posted and the donut tank has maintained a nice stock look.

Wouldn;t even know it was on gas except for the red tags on the plates.
Feels no different to drive as before when on petrol. Starts on petrol and from the outside the injectors have a bit of a tappeting sound but it can"t be heard from inside. Thats about it

So far im very happy wit the Sprintgas system and i plan to have my car serviced by ezygas in the future. Car goes in next for its 1500km free service.

I have been driving it quite hard but hopefully over the next week i will be able to see how many kms i can get from a tank.

[ash0105]

Finally picked up my car from ezygas after having it with them for 4 days. (Needed extra time to fit the donut tank cradle.)
Very happy with the service and quality of the install. The guys always kept me posted and the donut tank has maintained a nice stock look.

Wouldn;t even know it was on gas except for the red tags on the plates.
Feels no different to drive as before when on petrol. Starts on petrol and from the outside the injectors have a bit of a tappeting sound but it can"t be heard from inside. Thats about it

So far im very happy wit the Sprintgas system and i plan to have my car serviced by ezygas in the future. Car goes in next for its 1500km free service.

I have been driving it quite hard but hopefully over the next week i will be able to see how many kms i can get from a tank.

Good choice Cammm, happy motoring.

[PoweredByCNG]

This thread is useless without pix! :)

Regards,
Dave

[cammm]

busy with work atm and getting my amp/sub installed 2morro but ill try and get some over the weekend and put them up.

[blownba]

I have been fitting JTG since the day it was released and have a very large client base running JTG liquid injection and I have NEVER had a pump failure!!!

I have a couple of cars that have just had their 40,000km services done with ZERO issues and fantastic fuel economy.

If an installer thinks they can just fit this stuff the way it comes out of the box without checking all facets of fuel delivery and fuel trims then they are sadly mistaken. And this is where 90% of problems lie. the fitters are to lazy to make calibrator changes to get perfect fuel trims.
I have changed calibrators on about 50% of the cars I do to get the fuel trims EXACTLY the same as petrol. Then, and only then will the vehicle achieve stated economy.

I had a FG falcon that needed a calibrator 3 seizes smaller than what is supplied in the kit. It took 6 hours to remove the intake manifold to change them!!!! At the end of the day thats what it takes to get it right and its what I do for all my customers.


But like I said ZERO pump issues.
And economy will only be wrong if the installer has not checked fuel trims and done any adjustments needed.

[loudvtss]

I have been fitting JTG since the day it was released and have a very large client base running JTG liquid injection and I have NEVER had a pump failure!!!

I have a couple of cars that have just had their 40,000km services done with ZERO issues and fantastic fuel economy.

If an installer thinks they can just fit this stuff the way it comes out of the box without checking all facets of fuel delivery and fuel trims then they are sadly mistaken. And this is where 90% of problems lie. the fitters are to lazy to make calibrator changes to get perfect fuel trims.
I have changed calibrators on about 50% of the cars I do to get the fuel trims EXACTLY the same as petrol. Then, and only then will the vehicle achieve stated economy.

I had a FG falcon that needed a calibrator 3 seizes smaller than what is supplied in the kit. It took 6 hours to remove the intake manifold to change them!!!! At the end of the day thats what it takes to get it right and its what I do for all my customers.


But like I said ZERO pump issues.
And economy will only be wrong if the installer has not checked fuel trims and done any adjustments needed.

Is this a training issue? Are the installers been giving the proper training and instructions prior to being authorised to install these units? If so, then the distributors should be doing something about the installations. It's giving the product a bad name and people are staying away from the product. I for one would've had one installed 1 year ago but along with the problems highlighted here on the forum and form installers I was giving a run around when asking when my kit was to arrive. I then cancelled my order. I can't believe the distributors of these kits sit there and let all these issues keep arising if the problems are with installers not doing the install correctly.