Alloytec LPG longevity

[fangios]

G'day all!

I'm getting ready to convert my VZ alloytec wagon to LPG, and i have seen various things on the internet that suggest that the V6 alloytec can only do around 50,000kms on LPG before having valve recession problems. There are others that dispute this as well.

What I really want to know is does anyone have any real life experience with a VZ alloytech on LPG that has done more than 50,000km on LPG and how is it holding up?

Thanks

[PoweredByCNG]

While it hasn't quite covered 50,000km on gas, we have a VZ SV6 with 5-speed sports auto and the High Output Alloytec with a Sprint Gas (OMVL) Dream XXI LPG injection system. You are unlikely to have dramas with the engine but if you're particularly worried about it, you can opt to install a FlashLube drip kit.

Just out of interest, what type of system are you looking at?

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

Hi Dave,

I would love to install a liquid system, but the extra price just doesn't seem worth it, considering the car will only be doing average kms (20,000 a year at best)

I have read virtually every post on the subject I can find on various forums, many by yourself!

I have had various cars in the past with mixer systems that worked well, so am pretty sure that I will be happy with a vapour injection system on this car.

Actually I am looking at an Elko system currently.

I would love to know though if anyone has personal experience with either head failures at low kms, or alternatively, large amounts of kms with no problems, rather than really on unsubstantiated reports. I havent had any LPG installers say that there are problems, and I have talked to at least half a dozen now!

Regards,

Fangios

[PoweredByCNG]

I would strongly suggest going for either a EuroGas or Sprint Gas system.

The EuroGas system uses Keihin injectors - the best gas injectors on the market. Along with the icom JTG Liquid Injection system, this is the system I would recommend for those with larger engines or high power outputs. The EuroGas system is easier to get running properly too compared to the other system that uses Keihin injectors - Parnell / Prins.

While the EuroGas and Sprint Gas systems share the same ECU (AEB), the Sprint Gas system has software with more features (although this may have changed by now). With the Sprint Gas system, you can set it up so that at high revs, it supplements the gas injection with a little bit of petrol to ensure that higher power outputs are still achieved without leaning out.

Most importantly, make sure you choose your installer wisely. Ask the installer plenty of questions and don't hesitate to make several visits to any one installer to inspect or even sample their work.

When the time comes, be sure to tell the installer where you want things like the fuel guage and compliance plate to be affixed and how the supply hoses from the tank will affect boot space. Doing this will ensure that you get precisely what you want.

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

Hi Dave,

Given that I have a 3.6 alloytech, I wouldn't have considered it necessarily a large or high powered engine (compared to a v8) and therefore would assume that injector choice wouldn't really be a factor.

I'm mainly concerned about economy and reliability, so up front price comes into it, as well as a quality job.

A family member has an Elko injected system installed about 12 months ago which has been great, and the price is right, so that is what I am looking at currently.

[PoweredByCNG]

Actually, by European standards, the Alloytec is a 'high capacity' motor. Remember that basically all LPG injection kits originate from Europe, where most cars converted to LPG have engines that displace less than 2-litres.

However, in saying that, most LPG systems for 6-cylinder engines will be fine for up to around the 180-200kW mark before petrol operation or supplementation is required. Some systems with larger regulators and injectors are good for over 240kW.

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

I've decided to go for the Impco-BRC sequent vapour injection system. My installer showed me the kit. All the wiring just plugs in and with the whole system designed in conjunction with Holden, I'm confident it will be reliable, and run well.

I guess time will tell


Cheers,

Fangios

[PoweredByCNG]

I've decided to go for the Impco-BRC sequent vapour injection system.

Good choice. At the end of the day, this system is the one that HSVi use and I'm sure your installer will use the same wiring loom and bracketing to make the system look factory-fit. When speaking to your installer, make sure he positions the injectors as close to the engine as possible to minimise the length of the rubber injector hoses that run between the injectors themselves and the nozzles drilled into the intake manifold - this has a HUGE impact on throttle response.

Holden claims 13.4L/100km with the latest calibration for this system on the MY09.5 VEs, so expect some awesome economy, even around town.

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

Cheers, I'm looking forward to seeing how it all goes. I have put a fair bit of research into this and at the end of the day for me it looks to be the best option for my car.

Looking forward to some cheaper driving!

Thanks for your help

[redvxr8clubby]

So what is it costing to install (if you don't mind me asking)? Hope it goes well for you - keep us posted on your experiences with it. I had a work Falcon BF wagon (factory EGas), for 75,000 Km with no issues except for the fuel gauge. Costs half of petrol to run. Converting a VZ to gas is a bit of a worry to me, as for the reason of your post - if you wind up having major issues to the heads, your fuel saving is gone. I would think if you're getting a system same as HSVi, it should be OK. I think I would go with the flash lube kit as poweredbyCNG said, or I'd be forever worrying it's gonna stuff up on me (rightly or wrongly). Not sure if you have that option with the system you are going for.

[PoweredByCNG]

Most installers will actually recommend installing a FlashLube kit on Alloytec conversions. Our SV6 did have such a system installed after the gas conversion in mid-2007. The only maintenance required is a periodic refill of the FlashLube bottle (every 5000km or so). Bottles of FlashLube valve saver can be purchased from stores such as Supa Cheap and Repco. It's cheap insurance and has been proven to work effectively.

Regards,
Dave

[planetdavo]

I would also HEAVILY recommend a valve lube kit be installed.
We have had quite a number of Alloytecs though the workshop with severe head issues around 50,000kms. These were all aftermarket gas installations, not the factory lpg models, which came with the LW2 factory modified motor to suit.

[seldo]

I would also HEAVILY recommend a valve lube kit be installed.
We have had quite a number of Alloytecs though the workshop with severe head issues around 50,000kms. These were all aftermarket gas installations, not the factory lpg models, which came with the LW2 factory modified motor to suit.Agreed.
I understand that the standard Alloytec develops some serious problems unless it has an upper-cyl lube kit of some sort. That the factory found it necessary to produce a specific LPG motor syas it all, and I think there are a lot of differences, like - valves, valve-seats, pistons even..... It would be interesting to compare the parts book between the two engines because I think you'll be surprised at the number of major differences.

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys,

There is no proof that the HSVi dual-fuel engines have anything different from the standard petrol-only engines. Engines built for unleaded petrol have hardened valve seats anyway. The HSVi dual-fuel engines have the same pistons as the petrol-only engines.

I have asked Holden about replacement hardened valve seats and they told me that they did not have such a thing in their system.

Bottom line is, there are many happy Alloytec owners with aftermarket LPG conversions including myself. In Perth, there are heaps of LPG VZs beings used as cabs now, many of which have aftermarket conversions. If you are worried about valve seat recession (which WILL happen no matter what fuel you decide to use), install a FlashLube kit.

Regards,
Dave

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------


...which came with the LW2 factory modified motor to suit.

All Alloytecs are LY7s...

Regards,
Dave

[whitels1ss]

I am a licenced car dealer in Adelaide.
I am now driving (for a very cheap to run work run about,) a 2006 VZ alloytec (Vapour L.P.-government agency in the south east of south australia and seems to have been mainly used on country roads and has had regular servicing.G. /Dual Fuel, fitted aftermarket when new) with 202,000kms on the clock at the moment. It is giving me 540kms out of 73 litre tank and runs as sweet as new.
I got over 700klms on a tank on a Melbourne highway run a few weeks ago as well.
The car is a 1 owner car which has belonged to a semi-government agency based in the south east of south australia and has been mainly used on country roads. It has been regularly serviced as well.
It uses about $8.00 worth of petrol with every tank of gas which it used as it is a vapour system and runs on petrol untill it warms up in the morning.
Very happy with it in every way and have it advertised for only $10,990 and will be half sad when it sells as it is such a great car and is so cheap to run and goes so well. It has far more power than any of the old type systems on any of the older 6 cyl cars and runs fine.
(B.T.W. it does not have any valve lube kit fitted.)
Alloytec on LPG only good for 50,000klms?????? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:,

[S220]

Our VZ has done 250,000 km on sequential vapour without any problems.

[redvxr8clubby]

200,000 and 250,000 K's with no problem is pretty good, but there have been reports of problems down around 50,000Km, as Davo confirmed also. Wondering why some are good and some are a problem. 200,000 Km car has no flashlube kit. S220 didn't say if the 250,000 K was with flashlube or not. I'm thinking he would have said if it was fitted. I wonder if they have have toughened up valve seats in later cars, and the problems were only with earliest VZ's?

[PoweredByCNG]

I think the 'problem' of premature valve seat recession on Alloytecs is way overstated. Remember, the vast majority of threads posted on automotive discussion forums such as this one revolve around motorists who have issues with their cars. People who don't have problems rarely post about their (lack of) problems.

Regards,
Dave

[planetdavo]

Guys,

There is no proof that the HSVi dual-fuel engines have anything different from the standard petrol-only engines. Engines built for unleaded petrol have hardened valve seats anyway. The HSVi dual-fuel engines have the same pistons as the petrol-only engines.

I have asked Holden about replacement hardened valve seats and they told me that they did not have such a thing in their system.

Bottom line is, there are many happy Alloytec owners with aftermarket LPG conversions including myself. In Perth, there are heaps of LPG VZs beings used as cabs now, many of which have aftermarket conversions. If you are worried about valve seat recession (which WILL happen no matter what fuel you decide to use), install a FlashLube kit.

Regards,
Dave[COLOR="Silver"]



All Alloytecs are LY7s...

Regards,
Dave

Dave, the valve seats ARE THE PROBLEM. :teach:
Secondly, the LY7 gas motor is only for the just released MY10. Before MY10, they used the LW2. You might want to see what parts have been used on the MY10 LY7 before commenting again. :)

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------


Alloytec on LPG only good for 50,000klms?????? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:,


Tell the many owners of 50K Alloytecs with a huge bill for head rebuilds that the issue is "only in their head".
:goodjob:

[mmciau]

Here is an example of the differing Engine Numbers for the Petrol and Dual Fuel Alloytecs fitted at Holden. The details are taken from the Sa Government Car Auction site

SEDAN SEPTEMBER 2006 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 23979Colour: ODYSSEYReg No: XQL623Engine No: LE0062420631VIN: 6G1EK52B87L870871Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 960815Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows, Traction Control, Electronic Stability Program

SEDAN NOVEMBER 2005 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 28478Colour: QUICK SILVERReg No: XQI941Engine No: 10HBAH053060020VIN: 6G1ZK52B05L531391Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 957511Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows Front

SEDAN MARCH 2006 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 44480Colour: SHANGHAIReg No: XQJ250Engine No: 10HNCH060740446VIN: 6G1ZK52N56L563250Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 957841Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows Front

SEDAN SEPTEMBER 2006 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 40170Colour: NICKELReg No: XQL337Engine No: LW2062550512VIN: 6G1EK52N67L872855Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 960477Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows, Traction Control, Electronic Stability Program

Even the VIN numbers have identifiers for Factory fitted Dual Fuel equipment.

Mike

[fangios]

Guys - can we get this thread back on track???????????????



This issue is really important to me as I am about to LPG convert my vehicle and I would like to understand why some alloytecs have done high kms on gas, and others have had head problems.

[Swordie]

Planetdavo,

In regards to the cars with the heads off:
- did any have valve lube kit be installed?
- what difference did you see between cars that didn't have the kit?

[seldo]

Davo - I thought that was totally uncalled for and does you no credit. Rather than slagging someone whom you've never met nor even heard of, and just might be a pillar of the community, why don't you get on your 'puter and give us a list of parts differences.... Give us some facts rather than cheap shots.

[PoweredByCNG]

Why does every LPG-related thread on every automotive forum have to degenerate into a slagging contest??

LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC ALREADY!

Regards,
Dave

[mickeyVX350]

JESUS! Get back on topic. Some of us are considering either SAVING MONEY or F*(KING our cars up yet you meatheads can't seem to get past dealer bashing, and ripping each other apart.

I am thinking of sepnding 4K to make my daily cheaper to run and wanna know if I can expect Return on Investment, or a rebuild. Any advice that is ON TOPIC is great. Thanks to Dave (pbCNG) for being very open with us. wish he was over here to fit one for me!

[whitels1ss]

As I said before I have a 2006 VZ with aftermarket Vapour LPG which was fitted when new, no extra lubricant set up and it still runs great and very economical. It has now done 202,000kms.
It is a Holden approved system and I guess Holden would not approve them if they were no good.
I am very happy with it.:)
Mate just go for it, it will save you heaps on your fuel costs! :goodjob:

[planetdavo]

As I said before I have a 2006 VZ with aftermarket Vapour LPG which was fitted when new, no extra lubricant set up and it still runs great and very economical. It has now done 202,000kms.
It is a Holden approved system and I guess Holden would not approve them if they were no good.

An approved kit is simply an approved "kit". The complete answer is rather more complex than that.
The thing anyone needs to be aware of, rather than sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring it, is that the potential for serious cylinder heads issues is very real in a non-hardened valve seat Alloytec.
Some will get 202,000kms, other will only get 50,000kms.
I doubt any aftermarket lpg installer will offer an extended warranty on the engine, only the lpg kit itself, which should say something about them protecting themselves from liability. Most "recommend" the installation of a flashlube style kit, which in many cases is their way of trying to ensure no ugly engine failure issues arise that might come back and bite them...

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------



I am thinking of sepnding 4K to make my daily cheaper to run and wanna know if I can expect Return on Investment, or a rebuild. Any advice that is ON TOPIC is great. Thanks to Dave (pbCNG) for being very open with us. wish he was over here to fit one for me!
I told you we have had numerous non factory lpg alloytecs in the shop with severe valve seat recession at only 50,000kms.
What sort of "on topic" advice are you really looking for? You've had "the good" side of lpg from pbCNG, and you've had "the bad" from the in the trade me who's seen more than a few now... :confused:

[PoweredByCNG]

You can choose who you believe but I can tell you for a fact that there are HEAPS of non-HSVi dual-fuel VZs out there and ours just happens to be one of them. The engines that are designated as dual-fuel engines are taken from the same production lines as normal petrol-only engines. The gas system is installed separately AFTER the engine has been built. While the engine may have a different product code, the fact remains that there isn't a product code for 'LPG valve seats' on Holden's system. This topic has been done to death in the past on other forums and the conclusion has always been that the issue is far overstated.

Ford also states in their workshop manual that petrol-only BA/BF Falcons are 'not compatible with LPG fitment'. Here's a quote from this manual:


CAUTION: Only BA/BF Series vehicles facoty built with E-gas are designed and tested by Ford Motor Company to run on LPG. Petrol BA/BF Series vehicles are not compatible with LPG fitment. Fitment to these vehicles may compromise safe vehicle operation, reduce the life of certain engine and may result in non-compliance with emissions regulations.

As many will know, aftermarket LPG for BA/BF Falcons does NOT lead to premature engine wear and if anything, results in LOWER emissions because the majority of aftermarket fitouts for these vehicles consist of injected kits.

It's just another ploy by Holden/Ford to get you to buy their own products.

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

I told you we have had numerous non factory lpg alloytecs in the shop with severe valve seat recession at only 50,000kms.
What sort of "on topic" advice are you really looking for? You've had "the good" side of lpg from pbCNG, and you've had "the bad" from the in the trade me who's seen more than a few now... :confused:

There is a hell of a difference between a head lasting 50K and lasting 200k. There must be a reason for that.

Sorry Davo, but I don't know what you do or where you work. How many is numerous? Where do you work, a holden dealership?

Here's something that I heard which may or may not be true. Holden cut the valves/seats on a smaller angle so that there was more valve-to-seat contact for greater heat dissapation.

Also the theory that earlier VZ's are the ones that had the problem is interesting. When did Holden start doing the duel fuel cars? Perhaps they built a modification (such as different seats) into the car from that point on without telling anybody....

[indyeve]

i have done 80000 klms in my alloy tec rodeo with no dramas love it saving 50% compared too petrol

[seldo]

A close relative was involved as an engineer at GM on the LPG program. I just asked him what the differences were, if any, and he said that dedicated LPG engines had hardened inlet and exhaust valves. That was all that he could recall, but he thought the seats were the same. He said there was a call by the engineers for the harder valves to be used through all production, but the bean-counters vetoed it on the basis of cost.

[PoweredByCNG]

...and he said that dedicated LPG engines...

Sorry, but GM/Holden have never made a dedicated LPG HFV6 engine...

Regards,
Dave

[fangios]

I'm sure he meant the factory gas engine, not 'dedicated' as such.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

Anyone have an idea of head reco costs in case the worst happens?

[seldo]

Sorry, but GM/Holden have never made a dedicated LPG HFV6 engine...

Regards,
DaveHe must have been employed on an imaginary contract working in a phantom division then.....:rolleyes:

[planetdavo]

There is a hell of a difference between a head lasting 50K and lasting 200k. There must be a reason for that.

Sorry Davo, but I don't know what you do or where you work. How many is numerous? Where do you work, a holden dealership?

Here's something that I heard which may or may not be true. Holden cut the valves/seats on a smaller angle so that there was more valve-to-seat contact for greater heat dissapation.

Also the theory that earlier VZ's are the ones that had the problem is interesting. When did Holden start doing the duel fuel cars? Perhaps they built a modification (such as different seats) into the car from that point on without telling anybody....

Yes I work in a dealership, and you can ask any dealership whether they have had a few alloytecs with aftermarket lpg back in for engine dramas under warranty, which, of course, are all rejected and the customer has to pay. Every dealership has had them, if that helps answer your question!
Holden have only just started fitting lpg compatable LY7's for MY10. Previously, they all used the LW2 gas engine.
To the "pro lpg" lobby at work in this thread, perhaps it's time for you to admit the potential for severe valve recession is a very real possibility, rather than just plugging your beliefs and answering what the op "appears" to only want to hear...:teach:
Perhaps pbCNG would like to offer an engine warranty to the op once he's had the conversion done without fitting flashlube? :rofl:

[whitels1ss]

To the "pro lpg" lobby at work in this thread, perhaps it's time for you to admit the potential for severe valve recession is a very real possibility, rather than just plugging your beliefs and answering what the op "appears" to only want to hear...:teach:


Come on guys.....
On a Holden Forum with near on 40,000 members, I can't get my mind around the fact that there have been no posts yet from any members who have told of any specific problems which they have had.:confused:
Please.... If any members on here have had any specific problems with their engines on gas could they share them with us?
Surely with near 40,000 members on the forum and if planetdavo has seen such "numerous" problems there should be "numerous" people on here that can share them with us??? :confused::confused::confused:

[seldo]

Sorry, but GM/Holden have never made a dedicated LPG HFV6 engine... Sorry - you are incorrect.

He must have been employed on an imaginary contract working in a phantom division then.....:rolleyes:I just checked with him again - He said the procedure was that if a Holden dealer wanted to supply an LPG car, they ordered the car from GM who then supplied the car fitted with the LPG-compatible engine. This engine had hardened inlet and exhaust valves. (I did query valve-seats, but he said that he doesn't think the seats were any different, and this makes sense as it's much easier to just fit valves out of a different box, as it were). The dealer then fitted (through an authorised/licensed fitter) the factory approved Impco kit. The car was then delivered as factory approved and warranted, although the gas part of the kit was warranted by Impco.
Now listen carefully - he also said that where some dealers had fitted kits (Impco or otherwise) to non-LPG-intended engines, warranty was not honoured.
It seems that subsequent problems were more determined by usage than anything else. Short-trip engines seemed to have more problems than long trip ones.
That's from a relative who was a senior engineer in the department at Holden that designed and engineered these engines and kits. Impco supplied the hardware and the LPG computer.
I've tried to find the identifying Engine No prefix to clarify this but can't be bothered spending any more time on it. It may even be explained in the front of your car handbook.

[PoweredByCNG]

Sorry - you are incorrect.

Show me otherwise and I shall stand corrected.

Regards,
Dave

[whitels1ss]

Show me otherwise and I shall stand corrected.

Regards,
Dave

I am sure seldo meant to say "FACTORY DUAL FUEL".:)

[PoweredByCNG]

I am sure seldo meant to say "FACTORY DUAL FUEL".:)

I did ask for clarification, and he said that I was wrong.

I may have been wrong about the engine codes (I suspected that all Alloytec 3.6L V6s were LY7s based on what I read in the GM High Feature Engine article on Wikipedia) but I'm very sure that Holden never offered a dedicated LPG engine based on the GM High Feature Engine.

Regards,
Dave

[seldo]

I am sure seldo meant to say "FACTORY DUAL FUEL".:)Thanks whitels1ss - that's exactly what I meant. I wasn't dwelling on semantics.
Did Holden make a specific Alloytec engine designed to operate on LPG? - Yes.
The system starts on petrol and changes to LPG when it reaches a satisfactory operating temp to utilise the LPG.
Does/did Holden approve the use of LPG on the Alloytec unless it was their specific LPG-specification engine? - No.

[whitels1ss]

but I'm very sure that Holden never offered a dedicated LPG engine based on the GM High Feature Engine.

Regards,
Dave

Yes you are correct but I think Seldo just used the word "Dedicated" to mean "Factory". :)

[PoweredByCNG]

Perhaps pbCNG would like to offer an engine warranty to the op once he's had the conversion done without fitting flashlube? :rofl:

Who do you think you are???

Perhaps you would be able to give us more FACTS before putting the blame solely on aftermarket LPG conversions for the troubles that a very small minority of customers have experienced?

Did these customers have FlashLube kits installed and if so, were the reservoirs refilled as required? Did they have their cars serviced appropriately (i.e. oil changes every 7,500km)? What year model(s) are we dealing with? How many customers (as a percentage of customers who have LPG installed, Holden approved or otherwise) is 'many'?

Until you give us the full details, I'm inclined to believe that you're trying to protect the interests of the Holden dealers you work for more than anything.

Regards,
Dave

[planetdavo]

Please.... If any members on here have had any specific problems with their engines on gas could they share them with us?
Surely with near 40,000 members on the forum and if planetdavo has seen such "numerous" problems there should be "numerous" people on here that can share them with us???


I have no agenda to feed supporting or otherwise the use of this fuel. Some of you just can't accept that myself, being on the frontline rather than being an internet specialist on everything, have been there and done that regarding this engine family on lpg.
Think I'll join seldo and abandon this thread now. It's becoming a joke.

[mmciau]

Here is an example of the differing Engine Numbers for the Petrol and Dual Fuel Alloytecs fitted at Holden. The details are taken from the Sa Government Car Auction site

SEDAN SEPTEMBER 2006 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 23979Colour: ODYSSEYReg No: XQL623Engine No: LE0062420631VIN: 6G1EK52B87L870871Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 960815Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows, Traction Control, Electronic Stability Program

SEDAN NOVEMBER 2005 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 28478Colour: QUICK SILVERReg No: XQI941Engine No: 10HBAH053060020VIN: 6G1ZK52B05L531391Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 957511Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows Front

SEDAN MARCH 2006 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 44480Colour: SHANGHAIReg No: XQJ250Engine No: 10HNCH060740446VIN: 6G1ZK52N56L563250Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 957841Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows Front

SEDAN SEPTEMBER 2006 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 40170Colour: NICKELReg No: XQL337Engine No: LW2062550512VIN: 6G1EK52N67L872855Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 960477Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows, Traction Control, Electronic Stability Program

Even the VIN numbers have identifiers for Factory fitted Dual Fuel equipment.

Mike

Again is a copy of the differing engine numbers for Dual Fuel engine ex Holden Factory

[PoweredByCNG]

Not interested in engine numbers at the moment as I know they are different (as expected). I'm interested in part numbers for the so-called 'hardened valve seats' that some claim Holden have installed on dual-fuel Alloytecs.

Regards,
Dave

[SLE355]

The old leakotec V6 was the same, some needed heads after 50K and others went for ages, tuning of the systems could be a cause.

IMO this flashlube is a rort, good luck lubing 24 valve seats with a few drops of oil. Of course the gas fitters will reccomened it, they make money out of it!

[fangios]

So...bickering aside....


I think we need to concede here that Holden did build engines in the VZ with different valves (and perhaps seats) to cope with LPG.

So, the next question is, is there a solution for those of us with alloytecs that want to go gas? I still don't understand why some have had issues and others haven't.

Is it the way the car is driven? Is it because some run flash lube?

Would the Liquid injection system overcome all the problems because of the cooling effect it has?


Hmmm so many question..... :confused:


PlantetDavo - if you can find any documentation/part numbers on this i think it would be great to resolve this issue once and for all!!

[PoweredByCNG]

Would the Liquid injection system overcome all the problems because of the cooling effect it has?

Yup. The Liquid Injection systems super-cool the intake charge and therefore any valve problems associated with high combustion temperatures are eliminated.

Regards,
Dave

[redvxr8clubby]

The old leakotec V6 was the same, some needed heads after 50K and others went for ages, tuning of the systems could be a cause.

IMO this flashlube is a rort, good luck lubing 24 valve seats with a few drops of oil. Of course the gas fitters will reccomened it, they make money out of it!

With the Ecotech, that's first time I've heard that, I thought there was no issue with those engines on gas. I had in my mind, that if ever I wanted to go gas in a Commodore V6, I might go in for a VY II rather than take a chance with a VZ or even a VE. Would be interested to confirm if there is a different part number for valves in LPG alloytechs.

[planetdavo]

You do that and I'll stand corrected.

Regards,
Dave

Had a look today at this one. LW2 uses different bare cylinder head part numbers (re valve seats) to LE0, plus different inlet and exhaust valves. Pistons remain the same.
Will post the part numbers during the week, but it is clear that Holden produced quite a different top end for factory gas cars.

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------


With the Ecotech, that's first time I've heard that, I thought there was no issue with those engines on gas. I had in my mind, that if ever I wanted to go gas in a Commodore V6, I might go in for a VY II rather than take a chance with a VZ or even a VE. Would be interested to confirm if there is a different part number for valves in LPG alloytechs.

See above for valve response.
Re the ecotecs, it was not unheard of for them to end up with about 100 cracks per cylinder head when on lpg.

[PoweredByCNG]

Part numbers are appreciated.

Thanks.

Regards,
Dave

[redvxr8clubby]

Thanks for taking the time out to check that out Davo, that has been a bit of a mystery for a long time - a lot of speculation, which had so far seemed to suggest there was no difference between factory LPG and petrol cars. At least it's explained now. No doubt it's for cost reasons that petrol cars don't get the tougher valves and heads (valve seats). Ford engines are different for Egas cars as well, I believe they have XR6 Turbo conrods, as during Ford testing a rod was bent with a backfire. Don't know if Ford heads are different for the LPG cars.

[planetdavo]

Yep you are correct about Ford using turbo conrods redvx. Could probably use up a favour or two from contacts over at the blue side to answer questions about their motor, but unfortunately, spare time during the day is a wee bit of a luxury!

[duke5700]

My little brother works as an engine reco guy for a largish chain. A rather large portion of the work carried out is on LPG cars/heads. This goes for all LPG cars Ford, Holden whatever. I asked him why, and he said the engines that are generally fitted with LPG are not designed to utilise that fuel type. Valves, stem seals, valve seats wear excessively. He said some head types are prone to cracking and as such with poor tuning of the LPG system result in excessive EGT/Combustion temps and it gives you issues. He said design the engine in the first place to use the fuel and you will have no issues.

[seldo]

Had a look today at this one. LW2 uses different bare cylinder head part numbers (re valve seats) to LE0, plus different inlet and exhaust valves. Pistons remain the same.
Will post the part numbers during the week, but it is clear that Holden produced quite a different top end for factory gas cars.
.Thank you....

[fangios]

Thanks planet davo for confirming this, much appreciated!

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------


My little brother works as an engine reco guy for a largish chain. A rather large portion of the work carried out is on LPG cars/heads. This goes for all LPG cars Ford, Holden whatever. I asked him why, and he said the engines that are generally fitted with LPG are not designed to utilise that fuel type. Valves, stem seals, valve seats wear excessively. He said some head types are prone to cracking and as such with poor tuning of the LPG system result in excessive EGT/Combustion temps and it gives you issues. He said design the engine in the first place to use the fuel and you will have no issues.

Its nothing new that LPG is harder on valves/seats. Having said that I have had 4 cars on LPG, none have ever had a single engine problem and none were approved by the manufacturer of the vehicle. Thats why its good to know the specifics of what problems particular models have on LPG.

[PoweredByCNG]

I still believe the issue of valve seat recession is overstated, especially in relation to Ford Falcons. Now here's an example of an engine that's proven to run well on LPG, factory-fit or otherwise. Add Liquid Injection to the mix and there's simply no comparison between the GM HFV6 and the Ford I6 in terms of performance or reliability (favouring the latter of course).

Regards,
Dave

[seldo]

I still believe the issue of valve seat recession is overstated, especially in relation to Ford Falcons. Now here's an example of an engine that's proven to run well on LPG, factory-fit or otherwise. Add Liquid Injection to the mix and there's simply no comparison between the GM HFV6 and the Ford I6 in terms of performance or reliability (favouring the latter of course).

Regards,
DaveDo I take that as an apology - I was right and you were wrong....? :)
Don't worry - I thought I was wrong once, but I was wrong - I was right...;)

[duke5700]

I still believe the issue of valve seat recession is overstated, especially in relation to Ford Falcons. Now here's an example of an engine that's proven to run well on LPG, factory-fit or otherwise. Add Liquid Injection to the mix and there's simply no comparison between the GM HFV6 and the Ford I6 in terms of performance or reliability (favouring the latter of course).

Regards,
Dave

I wouldn't go that far to say they run well. Out of all the heads that they refurb falcon 4L heads on gas is numero uno by a long way. In a country town population of about 50 thousand its common to do 5 or 6 a week all year round.

[PoweredByCNG]

I wouldn't go that far to say they run well. Out of all the heads that they refurb falcon 4L heads on gas is numero uno by a long way. In a country town population of about 50 thousand its common to do 5 or 6 a week all year round.

Tens of thousands of cab drivers around Australia won't agree with you there.

While I understand that the E-series (EA-EL) engines had issues with heads, the AU-series and newer have engines that are practically indestructible.

Regards,
Dave

[duke5700]

Tens of thousands of cab drivers around Australia won't agree with you there.

While I understand that the E-series (EA-EL) engines had issues with heads, the AU-series and newer have engines that are practically indestructible.

Regards,
Dave

Well the heads must magically appear from no where then :confused: Seeing as most taxi drivers have BA fords these days and they have no problems... I'm just stating simply what I get told by someone in the industry that fixes these things for a living. He tells me quite simply "not un common to see 5 a week", well thats what it is. Maybe its not simply a gas issue and is a combination of errors that cause it, installtion, tuning whatever. However there is a higher likelyhood of cylinder head dramas when utilising gas. They see higher wear and tear levels on cylinder head components compared to petrol vehicles.

[PoweredByCNG]

Well the heads must magically appear from no where then :confused: Seeing as most taxi drivers have BA fords these days and they have no problems...

You need to consider that the BA Falcon was introduced in 2002 and was discontinued in 2005. Therefore, even the newest BAs will have covered four years in service (as cabs or otherwise). With a 100,000km annual mileage average, this means that a typical BA taxi will have covered between 400,000km and 700,000km. Some will have covered more, others will have covered less but at the end of the day, it would not be unreasonable to expect BAs to be up for engine rebuilds considering the amount of work they would have covered since new.

Regards,
Dave

[planetdavo]

I don't believe most people, including myself, are anti-lpg Dave.
Basically, because you put up such a spirited defence of the whole lpg product, you have set yourself up for the responses you are now getting. I acknowledge many drivers will get big distances out of lpg, but you need to acknowledge that a percentage of drivers get seriously low kms before major engine dramas occur. You couldn't accept this earlier in the thread, which made your input unbalanced.
If you could learn to accept this evidence, you might find everyone more receptive to your thoughts on this fuel.

[fangios]

Well I had another big chat with my installer today, and really quizzed him about all this. He acknowledges also that the factory fitted LPG cars do have different valves and seats.

But he reckons out of all the VZ alloytechs he has converted (estimates 60 or so) he hasn't heard of one having an issue. Also many of his customers have taken out an optional 'engine insurance cover' and he hasn't had one claim. He fits the Impco BRC system, which is the same kit as holden factory fitted. Its costing me $4250, which is not as cheap as some, but i believe the fact that the kit has been factory sorted is worth the extra.

Now I have chatted to this guy a few times and i believe he is being honest with me and has been very obliging in talking to me about it and showing me the kit etc.

So after all the discussion I think I am going to go ahead and do it. I am still considering the JTG liquid system as well, because I believe it will be kinder to the valves and head, but it is a fair bit more...

[redvxr8clubby]

So are you going for flashlube? How much extra is it?

[seldo]

You need to consider that the BA Falcon was introduced in 2002 and was discontinued in 2005. Therefore, even the newest BAs will have covered four years in service (as cabs or otherwise). With a 100,000km annual mileage average, this means that a typical BA taxi will have covered between 400,000km and 700,000km. Some will have covered more, others will have covered less but at the end of the day, it would not be unreasonable to expect BAs to be up for engine rebuilds considering the amount of work they would have covered since new.

Regards,
Dave
Hey Dave - I don't suppose you are somehow connected to the automotive gas conversion business..........??

[PoweredByCNG]

Hey Dave - I don't suppose you are somehow connected to the automotive gas conversion business..........??

I have said this before and I'll say it again. I am in no way affiliated with any gas product manufacturer or gas fitter.

Regards,
Dave

[planetdavo]

Well I had another big chat with my installer today, and really quizzed him about all this. He acknowledges also that the factory fitted LPG cars do have different valves and seats.

But he reckons out of all the VZ alloytechs he has converted (estimates 60 or so) he hasn't heard of one having an issue. Also many of his customers have taken out an optional 'engine insurance cover' and he hasn't had one claim. He fits the Impco BRC system, which is the same kit as holden factory fitted. Its costing me $4250, which is not as cheap as some, but i believe the fact that the kit has been factory sorted is worth the extra.

Now I have chatted to this guy a few times and i believe he is being honest with me and has been very obliging in talking to me about it and showing me the kit etc.

So after all the discussion I think I am going to go ahead and do it. I am still considering the JTG liquid system as well, because I believe it will be kinder to the valves and head, but it is a fair bit more...

Your preferred installer sounds like a decent operator fangios.

[CALAIZ]

Fangios,
FYI i had a Tartarini Sequential Vapour system fitted to an MY06 VZ Calais Alloytec 3.6 back in March and have since done approx 27K (55K total)without any issues apart from engine warning light coming on. Apparently this can have something to do with the pressure of the system but will get sorted next service. Cost me $4,200 from memory. Holden warranty still valid unless the fault is found to be a direct result of the LPG. The guy i used in Cranbourne actually fits these systems for Cranbourne Holden. I had the same concerns about the 50K thing too but was assured i should not have any problems. Same system was fitted to 2 x statesman limos which have both done in excess of 200K without a problem. I don't have the technical or industry knowledge to assist you but from an end user point of view i am happy.
Good luck with it all.
Cheers,
CALAIZ

[mickeyVX350]

I posted in my thread that I am going with an installer in Rowville fitting the Romano system (SVI). There are some great positives to this, bieng that all the underbonnet work is there to switch to Liquid later down the track through the same injectors etc...

Apparently, with 202,000K on board, my Alloytec should have sufficient 'blow by' to prevent valve damage.

[fangios]

Thanks for all your posts, its interesting to see what options you are all going for.


Here is a link to an article back from 2005 that clearly states that Holden put different valves and seats in their dual fuel VZ engines.

Ok, so I can't post a link because my post count is not high enough so you will have to find it yourselves.

Its on the lpgautogas site, a news articel regarding the launch of the factory VZ dual fuel.

I think we have heard this from enough sources to confirm that this is in fact true.

It doesn't however mean that every non factory gas converted VZ is going to have problems. Keeps your posts coming though, everyones experience is valuable and useful to all of us!

Cheers,

Fangios

[seldo]

Thanks for all your posts, its interesting to see what options you are all going for.


Here is a link to an article back from 2005 that clearly states that Holden put different valves and seats in their dual fuel VZ engines.

Ok, so I can't post a link because my post count is not high enough so you will have to find it yourselves.

Its on the lpgautogas site, a news articel regarding the launch of the factory VZ dual fuel.

I think we have heard this from enough sources to confirm that this is in fact true.

It doesn't however mean that every non factory gas converted VZ is going to have problems. Keeps your posts coming though, everyones experience is valuable and useful to all of us!

Cheers,

FangiosThanks Fangios - I try not to post stuff unless I know it is absolute fact...unlike some others who shoot from the hip......:eyes:

[blownba]

Has your installer told you that the Romano system can be converted to liquid injection???

I would love to see how they think they are gonna achieve that.
The Romano vapour injectors barely run on their own with low pressure vapour through them.
Try and run 20 times that as a liquid and I think you will find you will have some serious issues.
And coupled to the fact that the nozzle placement will be completely wrong for liquid injection.
It all sounds very far fetched to me. I have been fitting liquid injection since the very first day it was released in Aus, and I can't even begin to tell you how many holes are in the statement you have said.
Sorry. Don't mean to be harsh, its just there is far too much misinformation floating around about liquid injection, especially by the guys who are not chosen to be authorised to fit it.

Can I ask which company gave you this info???

[mickeyVX350]

Actually Romano state it on their site.

[dimadee]

I can add some light on the subject of different engines. From VE, the LPG engines had hardened seats factory fitted in the head. This was to stop valve recession. From MY09.5, all Alloytec engines (i.e. petrol and gas) have hardened seats fitted as standard.

I have a MY09.5 V6 Caprice which had the JTG icom system fitted about 4 weeks ago. I know it cost lots, but I wanted the best as my car runs most of the day. The car spent 2 days in the workshop having the system fitted, and has spent a total of another 2 days in the workshop trying to fix the problems. I am a chauffeur, and my business model is real simple - no work = no money, so this system has probably cost me another $1500 in workshop time.

PROBLEMS:
1. Starting is a real issue - i.e. it doesn't want to do it!
2. Cruising along the freeway it will randomly splutter like it is missing badly for about 1/2 second, and then it will be OK for a couple of minutes before doing it again. When it is doing this, every time you back off on the throttle it also lets out a little splutter.
3. This is the best one......toroid tank in the boot gets hot (too hot to hold your hand on it!) because of the circulating fuel, so you can't refill the tank on a warm day (say over 26 degrees). Sort of defeats the purpose of having gas!! If I need to fill it when it is hot, I have to buy a bag of ice and leave it against the tank for 30 mins before I can fill it.

I have done approx 8,000km with my car so far. The injectors were changed at 2000km to try and fix the starting and spluttering issues, and I was told that they would take a couple of thousand kms to bed in. These injectors have now done 6,000kms.

Today it spent another couple of hours in the workshop having the injector fuel trims adjusted (whatever that is). I will have to drive it around for a couple of days to see what happens.....of course I will have to wait for the tank to cool down so I can fill it first. I met another dude while at the workshop today with a late model Rodeo/Colorado ute using the same system with his Alloytec, experiencing similar symptoms.

I have been told that the hot tank issue only appears in taxis and hire cars because they run all day (almost like we are at fault), but I would have thought that they are the prime target market for an LPG system this good?

If asked, I would hesitate to recommend the JTG icom system at this stage. In fact, if I had the chance to make the decision again, I would probably go with a vapor system, or not bother at all.

To top it off, my front left wheel (HSV Grange/Senator wheels) got a nick out of it while they were working on it today. Not even gonna mention it as I don't have spare energy to argue.

Not wanting to start a sh##fight here, but this is my experience. I hope some time soon I can come back and tell you all that it is all fixed, and runs like a dream.

[PoweredByCNG]

Sounds like your system has the wrong calibrators for the engine and the ECU is having problems compensating.

Regards,
Dave

[dimadee]

Well I have had a chance to drive it today, and I can confidently say that after spending the time with the gurus in Frankston yesterday doing the fuel trims, it is much worse than before.

Now when it is having one of it's moments, it idles like it is running on 5 cylinders, and also misses and splutters under normal accelleration. I have to switch back to petrol and re-start the gas everytime it goes into piggy mode, which has been every 20 to 40 mins.

I have been calm and patient so far, but now that it has been in the hands of the experts, and has deteriorated I am losing confidence that they actually know what they are doing!

This is like being an early adopter of a Microsoft release....you end up being a beta tester!!

What annoys me is when it is running well, it works perfectly, but then it switches to pig mode, and it turns to sh#t.

Dave, would it be unrealistic to expect that they checked the calibration first??

The vapour system is looking better by the day, because at least I know it is reliable.

[mickeyVX350]

Oh mate.. I am SOOOO sorry to hear that you are having a bad time with it. I bit the bullet and went SVI, cost 4K. I was without the car for 2 days. Here are my thoughts so far:
-30 Bucks to fill... woohoo!
-Initially rough idle on startup (ULP) dropped past the installer, 2 minutes - all better
-Thought I was getting crap economy, so took it back in after 2000K (for 1000K service) and the right K's per litre were explained, they took 40 minutes and tuned about another 50K per tank economy. I did 420K to Bairnsdale on 1 tank with a little for running around. This is a big fat Adventra too!
-At the moment I think they may have calibrated in too much ULP, as I have noticed I have used about 1/8th of a tank over 2000K (they told me that they have put in the equivalent of rotating 1 ULP tank per year) So I guess that is on par if you take into account it starts on ULP until 37degrees / then 1200RPM.
-No filling problems at all, so I think the rest is a bit of a white lie (torroidal tank in cargo area)
-I get better economy around town, costs me 5 bucks a week!

I guess I am trying to tell you that it is worth it. I took the advice on here and never went to Melbs for a Romano system, I rang every local guy and by the end I was a mini expert. The last guy I called could do it that week, told me 4 brands of systems he used, and why each was good. I ended up with an EMER (has sprintgas components) as the installer said the software was better to work with - being that he is getting the thing right, I thought that was a good move. He was confident, and I never doubted him one bit.

My Adventra has now done 3000K on LPG ata cost of $203 it has 206,000Km on board and I am rapt!

Good luck getting it sorted.

[dimadee]

I am glad to hear that your vapor system works so well.

I spoke to LPG Warehouse this morning, and they are sure that they know what is wrong, so I need to take it in to Frankston again for another 3 hour session to modify the injector nozzles.

I really hope this will be the end of it so I can just drive!

Interestingly, the car seems to be using quite a bit of petrol, although the installer suggested that it is the software playing with the fuel gauge because it thinks that it should be using fuel. Not sure about how much truth there is in that!

This all seems to be a bit of black magic, smoke and mirrors!

[PoweredByCNG]

I spoke to LPG Warehouse this morning, and they are sure that they know what is wrong, so I need to take it in to Frankston again for another 3 hour session to modify the injector nozzles.

Definitely sounds like either your nozzles are incorrectly aligned (i.e. not all angled in the same direction and aimed at the centre of the inlet valve) or the injectors are incorrectly calibrated.

Regards,
Dave

[dimadee]

The car goes in on Wednesday morning to have the injector nozzles modified.

Initially, one of the reasons that helped me decide to go with a locally engineered system was having someone accessible who understands the system if needed. The guys at LPG Warehouse are determined to get it running right, and since they engineered the system, they are most likely to achieve it.

Personally I also think it is important to support any Engineering activity in Australia, as too much of it seems to end up overseas nowdays, along with the expertise!

One thing I have found is that if I fill the tank before it gets too low, it is more likely to allow me to get a few litres in, which then cools the contents of the tank, and allows me to then fill it up.

The LPG economy seems to have improved a little since the fuel trims were done. Yesterday I drove from the airport to Mornington and then back to the airport and down to Crib Point. I filled up and worked out that the economy was 12.3 litres / 100km.

Stay tuned

[dimadee]

Another fill today - mostly highway cruising with a bit of city stop start - 12.8 l/100km!

[aussiev8]

Just wondering whether
Dimadee got his Statesmen sorted
Fangios had LPG installed and is working OK?

[aussiev8]

Hi Guys

There has been quite some discussion about whether Holden do use different valves and valve seats in their LPG Alloytec V6. The answer is yes they do.

From Holdens website (http://www.holden.com.au/holden-innovation/ecoline/lpg-dual-fuel)

"In fact, not only is there no significant performance difference between LPG and petrol, the cylinder by cylinder cutover process means you can switch seamlessly between the two. The LPG Alloytec V6 engine is also engineered to last, and features ultra-durable Stellite valves and valve seats to resist LPG's reduced lubricity."

They also give very pessimistic consumption figures for LPG of 15.5 l / 100 k.

Hope this helps with future decision making.

[mmciau]

A recent posting of my VE on the road.

Mike


VE Omega International Dual Fuel Road Trip April 2010
I have just completed a road trip from Adelaide, South Australia to Victoria and back.

Left on 18 April and returned on 28 April

Starting Odometer 7451 KM

Completing Odometer 10803 KM

Total LPG consumed 387.46 Litres
Total Petrol (Gas) consumed 7.5 litres

Average overall economy 11.56 L/100KM or Approx 24 MPG (Imperial) or 20 MPG (US)

Worst economy 12.46 L/100KM

Best economy 10.70 L/100KM



If anyone wants my fuel consumption chart (Excel) send me an email at:

mmciau@momentuminternet.com.au (mmciau@momentuminternet.com.au)

[lease1]

I can add some light on the subject of different engines. From VE, the LPG engines had hardened seats factory fitted in the head. This was to stop valve recession. From MY09.5, all Alloytec engines (i.e. petrol and gas) have hardened seats fitted as standard.

I have a MY09.5 V6 Caprice which had the JTG icom system fitted about 4 weeks ago. I know it cost lots, but I wanted the best as my car runs most of the day. The car spent 2 days in the workshop having the system fitted, and has spent a total of another 2 days in the workshop trying to fix the problems. I am a chauffeur, and my business model is real simple - no work = no money, so this system has probably cost me another $1500 in workshop time.

PROBLEMS:
1. Starting is a real issue - i.e. it doesn't want to do it!
2. Cruising along the freeway it will randomly splutter like it is missing badly for about 1/2 second, and then it will be OK for a couple of minutes before doing it again. When it is doing this, every time you back off on the throttle it also lets out a little splutter.
3. This is the best one......toroid tank in the boot gets hot (too hot to hold your hand on it!) because of the circulating fuel, so you can't refill the tank on a warm day (say over 26 degrees). Sort of defeats the purpose of having gas!! If I need to fill it when it is hot, I have to buy a bag of ice and leave it against the tank for 30 mins before I can fill it.

I have done approx 8,000km with my car so far. The injectors were changed at 2000km to try and fix the starting and spluttering issues, and I was told that they would take a couple of thousand kms to bed in. These injectors have now done 6,000kms.

Today it spent another couple of hours in the workshop having the injector fuel trims adjusted (whatever that is). I will have to drive it around for a couple of days to see what happens.....of course I will have to wait for the tank to cool down so I can fill it first. I met another dude while at the workshop today with a late model Rodeo/Colorado ute using the same system with his Alloytec, experiencing similar symptoms.

I have been told that the hot tank issue only appears in taxis and hire cars because they run all day (almost like we are at fault), but I would have thought that they are the prime target market for an LPG system this good?

If asked, I would hesitate to recommend the JTG icom system at this stage. In fact, if I had the chance to make the decision again, I would probably go with a vapor system, or not bother at all.

To top it off, my front left wheel (HSV Grange/Senator wheels) got a nick out of it while they were working on it today. Not even gonna mention it as I don't have spare energy to argue.

Not wanting to start a sh##fight here, but this is my experience. I hope some time soon I can come back and tell you all that it is all fixed, and runs like a dream.

I have the ICOM JTG system on my SSV and have never had a problem. Am doing 1000km a week in it and has never missed a beat. Has an OTR and a fairly aggressive tune and am regularly getting 10 to 13 litres per hundred (by calcs not trip computer). A cam is going in soon as well. I cant speak more highly of the system. I have a 110 litre torpedo tank and never had a drama filling it, hot or cold days. Maybe its your installer and not the system thats the prob.

[blownba]

WOW!!!
Thats a real sad tale.
It does sound like you have some install issues. None of my VE customers have experienced anything even close to what your going through.
Like what was stated earlier, it sounds almost like the spray angle of the LPG is incorrect.
If the nozzles are not drilled on the perfect angle the liquid LPG will be spraying directly at the port wall and this has devastating effects. The JTG nozzles must be faced perfectly so the LPG will shoot straight at the inlet valve promoting perfect fuel delivery to the combustion chamber, the same as the petrol injectors do.
I spend HEAPS of time dummy fitting everything and measure twice before I even think of drilling the first hole, especially with alloytecs!
With the manifold on the bench I use a spare JTG nozzle (the alloytecs use the angled nozzles that bend the capillary tube 45 deg so you can drill them at a right angle to the inlet runner.) Its especially difficult to judge exactly how it will all end up cause all angles will change dramatically once the nozzles is installed.
Cars I do for the first time have taken me hours before even drilling a single hole, at times, just so I can making sure I was going to obtain the perfect spray angle, right in the middle of the two intake valves and also in the centre of the inlet port. As I said this can be quiet hard to judge on some cars, especially V6's and 8's where we use the angled nozzles alot. Alloytecs and Prado V6's are amongst some of the hardest I have come across. The section you fit the nozzles in is the lower part of the inlet and has alot of stuff in the way you also need to consider so as to have enough clearance to make it all work.
The first alloytec I did I reckon I spent over an hour just checking, measuring, checking and measuring again and then finally drilling, tapping and fitting the nozzles. And after you do the first one and have checked its spraying at the perfect spot (I refit the manifold and use a spare caplillary tube fitted as it would in operation. Then I use brake clean to spray down the tube to see in real time where the LPG liquid will hit once its all together.
I always seem to get them in the perfect spot, and always the same angle as the factory petrol injectors.
Then its really important to drill them all EXACTLY the same. I usually make a mini jig that aligns the drill bit at the same angle for all cylinders. Perfect fitment everytime!!!

The guys at ALPGW can only do so much too when it comes to fixing another installers problems. Its very hard to know exactly what has been done without full dis-assembly and inspection of every aspect of the install. Like me they will tend to try the easiest stuff first and if that doesn't work then the second go will require more drastic measures and much deeper investigation that is really hard to stomach, especially when you are already flat out and stressed!
But rest assured the guys there will keep trying until they get it right, TRUST ME.
Their commitment to customer satisfaction is truly astounding. I have witnessed them picking up a car from Adelaide to fix a installer created issue. Again the customer was fed up with the installer cause he couldn't fix it, and again was charged to replace perfectly fine parts.
Once ALPGW found out about this they sent a truck over to pick the car up and got it in the shop only to find...... Can you guess????....... Incorrect injector spray angles. (amongst a handful of other things that rendered the car unsafe and un RWC!)
The evidence is as clear as daylight once you remove the inlet manifold. The Liquid LPG will clean the carbon off the inlet walls wherever its been pointed as. its like a carbon wash for your ports!!! This was the cause of all the issues and heartache the customer went through.


Now the stutter you feel when cruising may just be the end of the capillary tube freezing over and affecting LPG spray. This problem will only occur once you have been cruising for a while at a constant speed with very little throttle open.
This happens when the capillary tubes are protruding too far from the nozzles (alloy manifolds) and the heat from the engine, through the nozzle is not being transfered to the tube. After injecting freezing liquid for enough time the inlet manifold will become really cold and begin to allow freezing to occur.
Easy fix.
For plastic manifolds we like to have really long tubes that extend into the cylinder head area where alot more heat is present and this warms the capillary enough to prevent freezing.
We are talking about tiny amounts of freezing too. And it will only ever occur at the tube end where the liquid LPG is changing state to a vapour and expanding 270 odd times. When this occurs an enormous amount of heat energy has to be transfered, usually a converter will take care of this with hot water, JTG really only needs the intake air to pass heat to the gas. (remember anytime you change the state of a element massive amounts of energy also need to be transferred or dissipate. So from a high pressure liquid to a low pressure gas heat must be absorbed or transfered for the change of state to occur. Simple physics)

I rarely have come across this issue though. Only 2 cars I can remember. A FG falcon with plastic manifold would miss on long trips after cruising for about 30mins. Open the throttle up and it clears and driving for a shorter period than 30 mins and it wont occur. Extended to tubes and all fixed.
A Nissan X trail was exactly the same problem but I cut 5mm off the tube and it fixed it.

I also have pulled manifolds off a Alloytec that was converted by someone else (who were new installers too. They began fitting LPG when the rebate came out and had only just started fitting JTG a short time before doing his car) anyway once the inlets was off I was shocked at what I found. The nozzles had been drilled so badly that not even one cylinder had LPG being sprayed at the valves. Some where at least an inch and a half off target!!!!

Luckily I was able to weld up the holes they drilled (I am one of the few small installers I know that can weld alloy! And has a lathe) and just started again. Got t my jig out drilled them right, and refitted it all and re tuned it. (turned out they didn't even have a scanner that could access a VY alloytec data from the petrol ECU.)
Because they were not able to check the injection fuel trims they had NO idea if it was in tune and running right. They just expect everything to work perfect out of the box. Big mistake.
The most powerful tool you can have to tune JTG systems is a scanner that can read the petrol PCM's data list and use the short and long term fuel trims to decipher whether the LPG mixtures are EXACTLY the same as petrol. If they are not we use the fuel trim figures to calculate what calibrator we should run to achieve perfect fuel delivery. Every 5% that the fuel trims are out equates to 1 calibrator size difference (smaller or larger).
I go one step further and also use a wideband air fuel ratio meter (set to LPG) to check how rich the engine goes on acceleration due to the fact fuel trim will not mean crap when the engine is accelerating OR at WOT.
This will help me to set fuel pressure to achieve perfect mixtures OR reconfigure a few things OR do a calibrator change.
The system is tune able, although alot of fitter will tell you its not. Its just not as easy as vapour injection that you click a key on the computer and it will change fuel delivery accordingly.
Having said that though, once you have a JTG system perfectly tuned and emulating petrol injection precisely, you need never tough it again. Just like your petrol injectors. Once the factory chooses the right injector for their application it stays that way for the life of the car. All wear related changes in fuel delivery will be sensed and compensated for by the petrol PCM. Well the same applies for JTG. get it right at the start and you will never have to touch the settings again. Its bloody brilliant!!! Customer satisfaction is incredible with very little chance of comebacks. Thats why I love fitting the stuff. I can rest assured that my customers will be overjoyed with the operation of the system and will remain content for many years to come. And they only need to come back once a year for a filter change and leak test with a final check of fuel trims. I am getting alot of my early JTG installs coming in for their 20K services and almost everyone had nothing but praise for the system and install.

:yahoo: I've finished!!

[dimadee]

Wow!! Thanks for the information blownba - I understand a little more about what is happening.

My car now has 95,000km on the odo, and has been back to LPGWA a couple f times. I can absolutely agree with blownba's comments - they are determined to get it right. It seemed to be getting better until a couple of weeks ago when the weather got colder. I now have studdering problems and rough idle problems occurring more regularly.

LPGWA have asked me to leave the car with them for a day, but I am struggling to find a day. I must do it though so they can have a good shot at it.

Even with my persisting hiccups, I would recommend the JTG icom system above all others. The performance and economy is the best I have come across for LPG, and the support is as good as it gets!!

[loudvtss]

Four weeks after having the JTG system you said:


The vapour system is looking better by the day, because at least I know it is reliable.

Now after 6 months of having problems you're happy to recommend the system to others? I feel sorry for anyone who takes up your recommendation.


Even with my persisting hiccups, I would recommend the JTG icom system above all others. The performance and economy is the best I have come across for LPG, and the support is as good as it gets!!

This system does sound fantastic but the downside is the time it takes to sort out the problems. It does sound that blownba is one of the few installers who can and should be installing these systems.

[danielsan]

I
3. This is the best one......toroid tank in the boot gets hot (too hot to hold your hand on it!) because of the circulating fuel, so you can't refill the tank on a warm day (say over 26 degrees). Sort of defeats the purpose of having gas!! If I need to fill it when it is hot, I have to buy a bag of ice and leave it against the tank for 30 mins before I can fill it.


I've been driving with wet towels on my tank on long trips to keep it cool enough to refill. Someone in germany with this system enlarged the hole on their multivalve and found they could fill up easier..

I did notice that icom have started making tanks with the pump externally mounted, i wonder if this will help at all.

[dimadee]

loudvtss,

Are you beter to buy a system that has inferior peformance and economy (vapour), or a newer, superior system that has excellent warranty support if something goes wrong?

It seems that my install wasn't done quite correctly, however it looks to be the exception, as almost all of the other installs operate perfectly.

Would you prefer that I told you that the JTG icom system is crap because I had problems with mine? There is a difference between the design on a system and the installation.

A bit like me telling you that all Yokohama tyres are crap, because the guy that installed mine only pumped them up to 20psi.

[loudvtss]

loudvtss,

Are you beter to buy a system that has inferior peformance and economy (vapour), or a newer, superior system that has excellent warranty support if something goes wrong?

It seems that my install wasn't done quite correctly, however it looks to be the exception, as almost all of the other installs operate perfectly.

Would you prefer that I told you that the JTG icom system is crap because I had problems with mine? There is a difference between the design on a system and the installation.

A bit like me telling you that all Yokohama tyres are crap, because the guy that installed mine only pumped them up to 20psi.

I guess my point was that after 6 months you're still having problems and still happy to recommend the system. Maybe that's just an outside view and maybe you haven't had the spare time to get it sorted but I would've thought that 1 - 2 days would be sufficient to get it fixed. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a lot more complicated than that.

Also I don't think you're car is the exception. I've heard other people also having issues. I'm not saying that people with vapour systems don't.

[APS Fston]

I own a VE GTS , the auto shifts badly after I let it sit for more than 5 mins once it has been switched off.... all Holden can say is "it's normal".

I still love the car...

The power steering pump has been noisy from new ...... all Holden have to say is " it's normal."

But i still love the car...

The tail lights get moisture in them , all Holden have to say is " it's normal"

But i still love the car !!!!!

I would rather push my Holden than drive a Ford , bc that's me.

There have been shit Holdens made , but I would never want to say it...

What I'm trying to say is this , this car has had problems but there's been alot that have not - same can be said about cars in both the liquid and vapour injection markets...

Knowing what I know , I would not chose vapour injection on a new model vehicle over liquid injection but thats just me, each to their own.

In case you haven't seen it , my car currently makes 304 rwkws on lpg - that is , standard motor . No vapour injection system could do that and I sell both liquid and vapour systems.

The hardest thing in the LPG game is getting the job done right.

But it's still the best investment I've made on both my car and my wifes...

A $3000.00 investment on my car now gives me a return of $50.00 minimum a week in my pocket....the same $3000.00 investment on my wifes car gives me a return of $75.00 minimum a week in her pocket....

Definitely worth putting up with the odd teething problem here and there.

Mick