Where the hell is Bin Laden

[Cool Daddy]

This week US defense secretary Rob Gates made the revelation that the US and its intelligence agencies have no idea where Osama Bin Laden is and that its been years since they had any idea.So the war on terror goes on with no end in sight,does catching Bin Laden now seem less relevant? is it still important to catch him and bring him to justice?.
I cant accept that with all the technology in the world at the disposal of the US that they have come no closer to tracking him down.

Any guesses,where is he ?

[Spider]

He's working at Starbucks in Times square.

[rgmast]

Thought he was driving taxis somewhere in OZ

[BossV8]

If they find him, what will be the excuse for staying in the middle east?

Wars keep driving the economy, and those with a vested interest in the big banks want to keep it going, as they fund the finance for the military effort

[tyrhantc]

He's over at mine havin beers and snausages.

[CeeVee8]

I don't even think he is on the CIA's most wanted list.

[iloveholden]

Gezzz Stewie Griffin found him and kicked his arse, how hard can it be???

[Cool Daddy]

Makes you wonder if they really want to catch him,if they did does that mean the war on terror will end ?.I bet if he,s still alive he would be hiding in either Pakistan,Somalia,Chechyna or maybe still in Afghanistan.

[KAL SPL]

The whole US intelligence agency cant find him but you ask if anyone on a car forum knows where he is :lol: gold !

[SS Enforcer]

He is probably holed up in a luxury penthouse in Dubai.

cheers

[BossV8]

More than likely he's ran off somewhere into the desert and shacked up with a goat

[1340LOCO]

Rumours have it that he is living in south oz, and he changed his name. He is now called Mike Rann.

[Spider]

He's in here...

http://drujohnwigsinkiwi.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bin-laden2.jpg

[Souljah]

He'll popup again around election time.

[GTOcoupe]

You think they would start sding highly trained intellegence guys in to infiltrate the groups become one with the leaders work their way up the ranks and meet the guy.

Im sure their would be a few trained guys that look muslim that are willing to be like a spy and get in close.

[SOLLY]

he's working as a hair dresses drinking fizzy bubbley and shaging little old ladies

[Frenchy VX SS]

On a serious note........i think even if they did find him that it wouldnt be the end. That culture doesnt work like the western countries on a "meh if we fix now its sorted" thought.
Id be more scared of the kids who grow up there knowing who killed their fathers and mothers........

[whitels1ss]

Thought he was driving taxis somewhere in OZ

Nah, they are all just his followers and fundraisers! :rofl::rofl::rofl: :hide:

[MickmeMate]

I don't even think he is on the CIA's most wanted list.

Of course he is he is still number 1
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm
Oh sorry thats the FBI my bad

[WLDLS1]

he is up in darwin with his other mate. BIN DRINKIN

[LooneyR8]

Of course he is he is still number 1
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm
Oh sorry thats the FBI my bad

If you find him can we split the reward..?

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/english/index.cfm?page=Bin_Laden

[Rub]

he probably had a shave and a haircut and is living somewhere tropical..

[WLDLS1]

maybe he now lives at neverland. they will never find him there.

[HSVREDSLED]

Rumour has it he is held up in the Kevin Rudds 'sensible and affordable' policy drawer.

That thing has never been opened.

[Nidz]

US Inteligence.. There's an Oxymoron..

They found him.. He's working down at Myer posing as Santa..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dgcaLG1UvU4/SuhRR2ZH69I/AAAAAAAACa8/KScX8D30XrQ/s320/osama+bin+laden+as+santa.jpg

[Jac001]

Good old Bin Laden was CIA trained and employed (against the russians in Afghanistan). Remember he (and Sadam) were one of the good guys!

Finding alive him just opens up a hugh can of worms for the US government.

If he is captured, the US have very little physcial evidence that he was directly responibile for 9/11. (The 9/11 mastermind is being prosectued in NY. So what part did Bin Laden play?)

The US government gains more from not finding him. So either he will turn up dead or he will never be found.

[BEARWOOD]

Who gets prosecuted for all the women, children & inocent men being killed everyday in Iraq, Afghanistan & wherever else the Americans decide they want to control...
I'm not a terrorist supporter of any kind but how can the Yanks decide when it's ok to kill people and when it's not? What if the 911 terrorists said that they were at war, does that make it ok for all those innocent people in the trade centre to be killed?

Anyway, i reckon Bin Laden would still be in a place that he is familiar with and where he has alot of support from people he can trust.

[BECAUZ]

is it just me or would he look like obama if he shaved?

[PBoB]

I reckon they've killed him by accident in a firefight or something like that, and are too afraid of the repercussions (ie suicide bombings from cells worldwide) to announce it to the world.


Of course he is he is still number 1
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/fugitives.htm
Oh sorry thats the FBI my bad

I'm pretty sure he's on everyone's list, FBI, CIA, NSA, NCIS etc.


Who gets prosecuted for all the women, children & inocent men being killed everyday in Iraq, Afghanistan & wherever else the Americans decide they want to control...
I'm not a terrorist supporter of any kind but how can the Yanks decide when it's ok to kill people and when it's not? What if the 911 terrorists said that they were at war, does that make it ok for all those innocent people in the trade centre to be killed?...

Show me where the yanks have just murdered women and children for the fun of it??

And they DID say there were at war when they launched 9/11, they've been crying war for years.

[BEARWOOD]

I didn't say killed as in walk up and shoot a kid on the street, but what about the strey bombs, bullets etc..
A good show to watch is "Generation Kill" on austar, the first season has just finished but i'm shore you could find it somewhere. It's not a documentry but it gives you a different look into whats going on over there as i'm pretty sure it was based on a reporters view that travelled with one of the squads that were leading the raid on Iraq.
Don't get me wrong, i just don't think the innocent people being killed over there are any different from the ones in America.

[MickmeMate]

If you find him can we split the reward..?

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/english/index.cfm?page=Bin_Laden

wow he's one tall mofu 6'4-6'6

[VTV691]

US Inteligence.. There's an Oxymoron..

They found him.. He's working down at Myer posing as Santa..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dgcaLG1UvU4/SuhRR2ZH69I/AAAAAAAACa8/KScX8D30XrQ/s320/osama+bin+laden+as+santa.jpg

Whats what you call Community Service!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[SINISTER R8]

if they do find him, which they probably wont now they just stated that they have lost him years ago, then they would tell the world. they would just come up with another reason why they are in Afghanistan, like we are all there to help train the Afgan Army and Police to fight the Taliban. which is why we are there now. if they cant find him then it doesnt look good for america who are ment to control the world so to speak.

And sixleeta, i think NCIS is a TV show on channel 10, but i could be wrong :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[OMR346]

And sixleeta, i think NCIS is a TV show on channel 10, but i could be wrong :rofl::rofl::rofl:
That is correct, but it is based on a real life department in the USA. There is some shows of FOXTEL about it. Its funny, coz the show NCIS is nothing like the real thing. But i suppose, none of them ever are.

[Peter B - CV8]

Osama Bin Laden = World champion at hide & seek.

[team illucid]

he got a job in the white house

http://landonius.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/metrospy_obama_bin_laden.jpg

[GenReaper]

Consider this, the guy needs Blood Dialysis regular so unless hes got a Dialysis machine in a cave hes either dead or the U.S.A is hiding him.

He did " Dead " or does have " Alive " Kidney Disease.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

[vz6.0]

Hiding in the mountains of pakistan, with the full knowledge of the pakistani government.

Last thing the paki's want is (more) terrorism and an extremist muslim uprising against the government so OBL "hides" and keeps his lackeys from getting too rowdy, the pakistani government pretend they have no idea, and dont really care to "look" for him, all the while keeping the yanks away and everyone in the region stays happy.

My take on the whole conflict:

If the might of the soviet army, without any real adherence to the geneva convention, rules of engagement etc couldnt overwhelm and destroy a rag tag group of camel ****ers, what hope has an army with one hand tied behind its back because of the bleeding hearts and terrorist appeasers got of actually achieving anything.

The afghan people dont want democracy or western goverments telling them what to do, theyre a fractured bunch of tribes whove been fighting for a thousand years, and theyll be fighting for a thousand more.

Either let the troops do the job and carpet bomb the place back to the stone age (probably only lose 20years of "civilisation" anyway) or just walk away and close the border until they wipe each other out.

[bsbozzy]

Bush, both Jr and Sr know exactly where he is.

[team illucid]

Either let the troops do the job and carpet bomb the place back to the stone age (probably only lose 20years of "civilisation" anyway) or just walk away and close the border until they wipe each other out.

I will vote for you :goodjob:

[Podge]

finding Bin Laden, whilst putting another trophy in the cabinet, will do little if anything to stop terrorism.

kill him and someone else will step up to the plate... not to mention the 'revenge' killings that would happen.

[SINISTER R8]

kill him and someone else will step up to the plate... not to mention the 'revenge' killings that would happen.

yes because if they kill him or remove him then someone they dont know will take his place. with bin laden still alive and doing his thing, the yanks can take certain actions to protect themselves, but if someone else takes his place then anything can happen and the yanks wont know what hits them.

[kpop]

So the war on terror goes on with no end in sight

thats the whole point, keep the war going. its all about profit making, and the only excuse that the war is still going is that they 'cant find bin laden'

he probably doesnt even exist, its just a reason for them to continue. if they 'find' bin laden, then the war ends, and so do the profits

go back and look at all US wars, one way or another, someone made huge amounts of money from them. who do you think sold fuel to the nazi's ?

[OMR346]

I didnt think there were so many conspiricy theorists here in OZ lol

[keen]

He grows some mean poppies....

[JaMeS_2007]

i heard he changed his name to iza bin speedin

[Spider]

i heard he changed his name to iza bin speedin
Iza Bin Hidin :rofl:

[SSThunderute]

This thread is gold!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe he is dead, failing that I'm sure he'd be a shaved and retired dude with a pair of boardies pluggers and a hawaiian shirt sipping mojitos in the carribean.

[WLDLS1]

i went to a party once with osama. played the quickest game of pass the parcel you have ever seen. well it looked like osama.

[troytroy]

I'm pretty sure people are just pissing in the wind regarding the war is being extended because of massive profits by Defence manufacturers. War is actually quite expensive......VERY expensive, and the people paying for it are tax payers (that's you too Mr person behind the keyboard) and the Government - all of which have a choice (vote or otherwise) and they're definatly not going to keep a war going because Boeing or Raytheon are making a killing (excuse the pun). That philosophy is like saying car manufacturers want to make unsafe cars so that people can crash them and buy more cars....sounds interesting on the internet, but doesn't work that way.

O.S.B is hiding his arse in a cave in northern Pakistan surrounded by fanatical followers all which would sniff an infiltrator quite easily. A recording has been on Al Jazeera TV relatively recently - he's alive. Billions of dollers worth of satellites and other stuff don't work well in caves.......

[cnnonyx]

lol @ this thread.

Osama Osama, where art thou?

Who knows whats happening - he may not even exist anymore. He may not have even ever existed.

I have learnt (coming from a very, very war torn rooted country) that most of the things you get from the media is pure lies, speculation, and crap they are intentionally feeding us.

I say the US has simply invaded Afghanistan to control the heroin trade - they control the coke market in South America with all the drug cartels, they control drugs, weapons smuggling and human trafficking in Europe via their massive military presence in the Balkans, and now they control all harry coming out of Afghanistan.

Osama could very well be one of their own planted a long time ago to give the USofA a free credit to take Afghanistan when the time was right.

Come on, the two biggest powers, the Soviets and now the USA have been fighting, ravaging, destroying and investing so much in Afghanistan since the 70's. Oh, surprise surprise, they only showed interest in that hole when the drugs started pouring out of the place.

Screw US foreign policy.

[Popeye1]

Like Dany Davito said once! Money talks and bullshit walks.:machinegun:

[troytroy]

I say the US has simply invaded Afghanistan to control the heroin trade - they control the coke market in South America with all the drug cartels, they control drugs, weapons smuggling and human trafficking in Europe via their massive military presence in the Balkans, and now they control all harry coming out of Afghanistan.

Osama could very well be one of their own planted a long time ago to give the USofA a free credit to take Afghanistan when the time was right.

No country (even superpowers) wants to go into Afghanistan en masse, it's expensive, there's no Oil or useful commodities to speak of - cynically, the international community largely don't give a crap, it's adjacent to no where, and it's an historical s***thole that gives no reward to the "invader"

Come on, the two biggest powers, the Soviets and now the USA have been fighting, ravaging, destroying and investing so much in Afghanistan since the 70's. Oh, surprise surprise, they only showed interest in that hole when the drugs started pouring out of the place.

Most of America's heroin comes from Columbia, Afghanistan is a small player in US drug trafficking terms. Most of Aghanistan's Heroin goes into Western Europe. Which even cynically wouldn't provide enough reason to spend the money they're spending in that area

Screw US foreign policy.

US Foriegn Policy has a lot to learn, definately!


........................

[cnnonyx]

troytroy, understood.

So why are they there? Surely not to bring Osama Bin Laden down? Destroying the country for Bin Laden? Thats an expensive war.

I didnt know harry was big in Colombia.

I read somewhere that heroin is making record numbers, coming out of Afghanistan. I found that funny, seeing as the USA controls most of the place now. I doubt anything can get in or out too easily without their eye or hand working over it a few times.

USA controlling asian drugs flowing into Europe? Must be. Again I bring in the Balkan example. Anything (and I mean anything) can make it to Western Europe through Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria. The USA completely controls this gateway.

It sounds so simple. Afghan drugs serve the Euro market? Great. Lets control the Afghan drugs. It gets in quietly through the balkans into the West? Great, lets control the balkans.

Freedom for Kosovo Albanians? Bringing Osama to justice? Freeing Afghan from the Taliban? lol @ the USA caring about human rights. They have a gateway to the junkiest market in the world - and they now control the product.

[Cool Daddy]

I would be more convinient for the US for Bin Laden to be still alive and hiding in a cave and not to be found,as long as it seems hes out there the war on terror goes on.What started as post 9-11 war on terror operation by the US now drags on into the next decade with no end in sight.All the bombs and tanks in the world will never win this fight and certainly acheive no real lasting peace in an area ravaged by war for over 2000 years by tribal factions of people who are quite content to live in the dark ages.

In decades to come vast areas of land seperating Afghanistan/Pakistan will end up demilitarised such as the North/South Korea border,this will ensure the permanent presence of US forces in the Middle East forever.Back to Osama who knows he might just pop up in another eimenem Film clip!

[Excellent]

Depending on what side you believe, 9/11 didn't happen as told and the whole Bin Laden story was made up to allow the US a reason to invade Iraq and take control of the oil fields.

http://911truth.org/

The claim is that 9/11 was an 'inside' (US government) job.

I was shocked to see planes crashing through buildings until I viewed the 'officially released videos'. Planes don't disappear through buildings as per the released videos, they crash into them (the implication is that the videos had been doctored to fool people into believing NYC was attacked by terrorists who hijacked planes.... while other videos show the buildings were brought down by explosions). The people who had the most to gain from the Twin Tower's collapse was the owner of the buildings and Bush/Cheney's self serving interests.

Interesting counterviews if you have the time to view the videos. Especially the part about the Twin Towers being destroyed because they were easier to knock down (due to asbestos linings) than to replace. Ultimately, most of the NY firefighters and people who breathed in the asbestos ended up dying due to respiratory failures. A real eye opener! :1peek:

[team illucid]

Depending on what side you believe, 9/11 didn't happen as told and the whole Bin Laden story was made up to allow the US a reason to invade Iraq and take control of the oil fields.

http://911truth.org/

The claim is that 9/11 was an 'inside' (US government) job.
:

watch Zeitgeist

[jd biddle]

Iza Bin Hidin :rofl:

lol thats so funny lol lol very good

[Cool Daddy]

I dont know if I can buy into the conspiracy theory,I seen the documentries and how they describe small explosions just before the buildings collapsed which in essence turned out to be peoples bodies exploding when hitting the ground after jumping from high above.9-11 was a well planned terrorist attack,even the terrorists where suprised by the success of the evil deeds.
Bin Laden played a small part in the demise of the world trade centre,it was originally bombed by Ramsis Usif in 1993 but failed miserably,when caught by the FBI 1 year later they flew him over the top of the buildings in a helicopter just to show him that he failed to which he replied that he will succeed in time to topple the buildings-boy was right,eventually Khalid Shad Mohammed was recruited by the terrorists to draft up a new plot to level the world trade centre.Osama Bin Laden played a small part in the planning,in fact he had little say in how the plot was to be executed,needless to say he gave Khalid Mohammed his blessings so hes just as guilty as those who planned the terrorist attack.

[Excellent]

watch Zeitgeist

Yes that's the one. :)

Although there are snippets from that footage available on youtube for those who don't have the time to sit through the film.

Very compelling viewing, I thought. :eyes:

[Excellent]

I dont know if I can buy into the conspiracy theory,I seen the documentries and how they describe small explosions just before the buildings collapsed which in essence turned out to be peoples bodies exploding when hitting the ground after jumping from high above.9-11 was a well planned terrorist attack,even the terrorists where suprised by the success of the evil deeds.
Bin Laden played a small part in the demise of the world trade centre,it was originally bombed by Ramsis Usif in 1993 but failed miserably,when caught by the FBI 1 year later they flew him over the top of the buildings in a helicopter just to show him that he failed to which he replied that he will succeed in time to topple the buildings-boy was right,eventually Khalid Shad Mohammed was recruited by the terrorists to draft up a new plot to level the world trade centre.Osama Bin Laden played a small part in the planning,in fact he had little say in how the plot was to be executed,needless to say he gave Khalid Mohammed his blessings so hes just as guilty as those who planned the terrorist attack.


So how do you explain the controlled demolition of 'Building 7' which the authorities failed to mention at the time (47 storey building that imploded in 6.5s) shortly after the Twin Tower collapse? :)

[Excellent]

I dont know if I can buy into the conspiracy theory,I seen the documentries and how they describe small explosions just before the buildings collapsed which in essence turned out to be peoples bodies exploding when hitting the ground after jumping from high above.9-11 was a well planned terrorist attack,even the terrorists where suprised by the success of the evil deeds.
Bin Laden played a small part in the demise of the world trade centre,it was originally bombed by Ramsis Usif in 1993 but failed miserably,when caught by the FBI 1 year later they flew him over the top of the buildings in a helicopter just to show him that he failed to which he replied that he will succeed in time to topple the buildings-boy was right,eventually Khalid Shad Mohammed was recruited by the terrorists to draft up a new plot to level the world trade centre.Osama Bin Laden played a small part in the planning,in fact he had little say in how the plot was to be executed,needless to say he gave Khalid Mohammed his blessings so hes just as guilty as those who planned the terrorist attack.

Sorry I had to re-read what you just wrote..... you say the explosions were bodies hitting the ground? :confused:

OK, moving on..........So how do you explain the controlled demolition of 'Building 7' which the authorities failed to mention at the time (47 storey building that imploded in 6.5s) shortly after the Twin Tower collapse? :)

[oranpark_addict]

CHUCK Norris fly kicked him......Enough said.

[Cool Daddy]

There were video cameras recording in the lobby of one of the trade centres before they came down and bodies were falling to the ground,you could hear these bodies explode as they hit the ground,the impact of this sounded like detonating explosives-very loud indeed.
No conspiracy happened,20 terrorists carried out these attacks not the US government.

[MzCLaSsY]

He is having coffee @ GW Bush's house.... :P

[BEARWOOD]

Why was every plane in America grounded after the attacks except the ones flying Bin Ladens relatives out of the USA??
That was mentioned in 1 of the 9/11 conspiracy videos, the thing is we will never know what really happened and how do you believe the governments or media these days???
Money, Power & Greed rule the world these days & we have to suffer because of it!

[Excellent]

There were video cameras recording in the lobby of one of the trade centres before they came down and bodies were falling to the ground,you could hear these bodies explode as they hit the ground,the impact of this sounded like detonating explosives-very loud indeed.
No conspiracy happened,20 terrorists carried out these attacks not the US government.

Bodies don't explode, dude.

But sorry if my question was just too much for your thinking ability.

My wrong.

:smilesandbanana:

[Gee]

You apparently believe in 9/11 conspiracies,yet you're having a shot at another person's intellect :confused:

[Excellent]

You apparently believe in 9/11 conspiracies,yet you're having a shot at another person's intellect :confused:


Could you explain how my question is classified as a conspircy?

Maybe you'd like to answer my question seeing you see fit to chime in.

Building 7's collapse as reported by its owner (the same person who owned the Twin Towers)...

YouTube- WTC 7 - Pull It By Larry Silverstein

Note: it is a fact that the Building 7 did not come down as a result of terrorist attacks!

[Gee]

Posts 56 and 60 appeared to be at least tacit belief, if I am mistaken and you aren't actually that dopey I apologise.

I wouldn't like to answer your question about the other building, thank you.

[Excellent]

Posts 56 and 60 appeared to be at least tacit belief, if I am mistaken and you aren't actually that dopey I apologise.

I wouldn't like to answer your question about the other building, thank you.

So it’s OK for you to criticise me for saying it’s too much ‘thinking ability’ to have my question answered but by the same token you label me as ‘dopey’ for believing some facts as per posts 56, 57?

Hypocrisy, yes? :goodjob:

Anyway, you conveniently dodged my question posed to you. I guess it’s easier for you to just laugh in one’s face than to acknowledge some basic facts.

[XUV]

troytroy, understood.

So why are they there? Surely not to bring Osama Bin Laden down? Destroying the country for Bin Laden? Thats an expensive war.
.

Lapis , they're there for the untapped pockets of Lapis :goodjob:

[XUV]

Its funny, coz the show NCIS is nothing like the real thing. But i suppose, none of them ever are.

What , what , what , there's no Abby :bawl:

[Ellistwo]

Excellent, as much as I admire you being an eager beaver, there are some things that just are.

Where BIn Laden? He's waiting for a call from Tiger

http://www.keeneyardsale.com/images/binladen_funny.jpg

[Excellent]

Excellent, as much as I admire you being an eager beaver, there are some things that just are.

Where BIn Laden? He's waiting for a call from Tiger

http://www.keeneyardsale.com/images/binladen_funny.jpg

Ellistwo, I know you haven’t bothered absorbing the facts I provide and dismiss them as just ‘conspiracies’. Ignorance is bliss! Things are the way they are because of the greedy, evil few who have the power to force catastrophic events at the expense of innocent people.

Tiger Woods? I think I know his secret to success. Get laid by a sexy babe in the morning and start the day off very relaxed. The rest of the field are just too focused on Tiger Woods to have a good game!

[Ellistwo]

Ellistwo, I know you haven’t bothered absorbing the facts I provide and dismiss them as just ‘conspiracies’. Ignorance is bliss! Things are the way they are because of the greedy, evil few who have the power to force catastrophic events at the expense of innocent people.

.........

Yeah all that, but how about the theory that a bunch of arab types decided to fly some planes into a few iconic buildings? To my mind it was a logical step for pirate types, who had been hijacking planes for decades. They would have been shot down if they tried it over Israel, so the next best Jewish state was New York.

[MzCLaSsY]

hahahaha this is 2 funny, everyone is getting fired up lol .. *me grabs the popcorn and sits back*

[duke5700]

Your never dead till they find the body. No evidence to the contrary and people can say what they want. He is in a shallow grave somewhere in afgahnistan or tajeekistan or hubbibistan or wherever when the seppos where kicking the shit out of the place.

[Excellent]

Yeah all that, but how about the theory that a bunch of arab types decided to fly some planes into a few iconic buildings? To my mind it was a logical step for pirate types, who had been hijacking planes for decades. They would have been shot down if they tried it over Israel, so the next best Jewish state was New York.

Are you sure they were planes actually crashing into buildings from the videos you saw? :confused: Please provide the proof.

If I’m wrong I’ll just sit down and keep quiet.

[Hi Octane]

^^ Do you live in South Western Sydney & call Sheik Ukelalie a friend....


Conspiracy theory my ass, Its a group of neanderthal fuk tards that are a bunch of pussy ass wimps that did it... the same typre of fukwits that strap bombs to themselves & jump on trains/busses.. FFs lift you head up, get you hands off the floor & smell the roses....

[PBoB]

Ohh we got all the brains in the world right here man!!

We would like to announce that today it is time for the US government to step aside, as the people of the LS1 forum in this fair land here have got all the FACTS and know EXACTLY what happened!


:jerk:

[Excellent]

Most of the footages I’ve seen show the 2 WTC buildings were brought down by explosions. As bizarre and ridiculous as it seems.

But you guys are obviously smarter than most without having to look at the finer details of the events of 9/11.

Though instead of talking tough and accusing me of being a muslim sympathiser, it would be good if you could actually back up your toughness with some facts.

[Cool Daddy]

To comment no 67, I meant when the bodies hit the ground they sounded like explosions(not exploded,not worded correctly),anyway lets not ruin an interesting thread by insulting eachothers intelligence,thats the beauty of this forum to exchange our views but not to kill eachother because we dissagree on certain topics.

Ive seen the conspiracy videos and cannot accept the the US government would purposely bring down 2 Iconic towers and kill nearly 3000 people just to justify the war on terror,If anything the government is responsible for failing to stop the terrorists from entering the US prior to 9-11 and also responsible for how the war has played out.

[Excellent]

To comment no 67, I meant when the bodies hit the ground they sounded like explosions(not exploded,not worded correctly),anyway lets not ruin an interesting thread by insulting eachothers intelligence,thats the beauty of this forum to exchange our views but not to kill eachother because we dissagree on certain topics.

Ive seen the conspiracy videos and cannot accept the the US government would purposely bring down 2 Iconic towers and kill nearly 3000 people just to justify the war on terror,If anything the government is responsible for failing to stop the terrorists from entering the US prior to 9-11 and also responsible for how the war has played out.

Cool Daddy

Sorry if I was unfairly dismissive of your views earlier. That’s just me being me - sarcastic (it’s a slow day at work today).

I understand what you meant but the explosions I refer to were the 3 distinct (loud) explosions that caused the towers to plummet.

I also had a very hard time believing that the US would do that to its own citizens. But how many Jews were actually killed during the 9/11 attack given they were the reason for the attack on NY? Not one according to official records. :1peek:

[Ellistwo]

Are you sure they were planes actually crashing into buildings from the videos you saw? :confused: Please provide the proof.

If I’m wrong I’ll just sit down and keep quiet.

I think you should do just that.:)

You're off base. When I watched the footage streaming into my house on the day there was little doubt some dirty big planes were smashing into the side of the buildings.

No previous explosions in the foyer, no smoke prior, just a dirty big explosion and fire ball:

YouTube- The first plane to hit the World Trade Center, 8:46 AM, 9/11

same with the second one

YouTube- Clear shot of plane hitting tower two and tow in goes up...

The impact of those planes would have been enormous and that energy has to go somewhere, unfortunately it all gets transmitted through the holding bolts and pins that connect the floors to the frame, unlike an all concrete construction.

[Excellent]

Where’s the plane in the first video? Funny that I can’t see it. Do I need to see an optometrist or are you just believing you can see a plane hit the building?

Funny how on the second video the image of the plane is so clear and yet the rest of the footage is so blurry. Doctored? I would say so.

I didn’t realise you were a qualified building structural engineer, but thanks for the explanation of why the towers collapsed.

Yet the Empire State building remained standing when a B25 hit it in 1945.......


The Crash
At 9:49 a.m., the ten-ton, B-25 bomber smashed into the north side of the Empire State Building. The majority of the plane hit the 79th floor, creating a hole in the building eighteen feet wide and twenty feet high. The plane's high-octane fuel exploded, hurtling flames down the side of the building and inside through hallways and stairwells all the way down to the 75th floor.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1940s/a/empirecrash.htm

[Gee]

How about some facts from your good self Excellent?


Most of the footages I’ve seen show the 2 WTC buildings were brought down by explosions. As bizarre and ridiculous as it seems .... it would be good if you could actually back up your toughness with some facts.

You support your hypothesis with what qualifications BTW?

Is this because steel only becomes molten at 1525°C but jet gas burns at 825°C? What are your thoughts on steel losing half its strength at 650°C?

Demolition perhaps?


Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

Took five seconds to find something approximating a 'fact' for you, there are mountains of documentary evidence out there. Hell most of it has even been put on the internet so you'll be able to find it.

Finally seeing as the US government, big oil, the jews, and everyone else with the "power" out there has so much control and influence, why is it Excellent that they dont eliminate such dangerous and clear thinking dissidents such as yourself? Perhaps for the same reason they havent silenced all the ridiculous conspiracy debate about this event?


But how many Jews were actually killed during the 9/11 attack given they were the reason for the attack on NY? Not one according to official records. :1peek:

I think the cleverest thing I've ever heard about this piece of gutter wisdom (and where it normally leads) is that even if Israel, Mossad or some other "big jew" did give a warning there's a number of jews who would be likely to go to work anyway.

BTW not even that "fact" is correct - what a shock :jester:

Bored now, I'm off to fret about something important like the Mayan calender.

[MzCLaSsY]

Oh of course being a Muslim sympathiser is not accepted but being a Muslim basher is!! I am a proud Australian Muslim and I do not believe in blowing up people or killing innocent civilians. I however am sick to death of individuals judging the majority based on the actions of the minority. Everyone is so quick to judge a Muslim when they see one and call them a terrorist but when they see a Jew, they see them as innocent civilians when they have been killing Muslims for hundreds of years (i.e.: Lebanon, Palestine...etc...), double standards? Yes I think so. I do condemn what either side is doing but if someone was to come to Australia and try stealing our land off us, regardless of whom they are, HELL YEAH ill fight for it and do what is needed to keep our land. Conspiracies of what happened on 9/11 will always be around regardless of how many stories, videos, articles come out, its just the way the cookie crumbles.

[iloveholden]

Hopefully its not just me but when i re-watch that footage of the planes flying into the buildings it makes me sick in the stomach :spew:

[Cool Daddy]

Hey dude,I dont claim to be an expert on everything but doing some research on the World trade centre construction in the late sixties these building were made of pre-fabricated panels which were bolted together in record time( first of its kind thanks to an aussie crane invention at the time),when the planes pearced the outer skin of these buildings plane fuel/fire spread quickly throughout the damaged buildings thus comprimising the structural strength of these buildings.Dont compare the empire state bulding to the world trade centre,the empire state building is a properly built skyscraper and its survived nearly 80 years .

[Excellent]

How about some facts from your good self Excellent?


You support your hypothesis with what qualifications BTW?

Is this because steel only becomes molten at 1525°C but jet gas burns at 825°C? What are your thoughts on steel losing half its strength at 650°C?

Demolition perhaps?


All the 'facts' are here http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html#Jowenko

Feel free to disbelieve if you will.

[Ellistwo]

Hey dude,I dont claim to be an expert on everything but doing some research on the World trade centre construction in the late sixties these building were made of pre-fabricated panels which were bolted together in record time( first of its kind thanks to an aussie crane invention at the time),when the planes pearced the outer skin of these buildings plane fuel/fire spread quickly throughout the damaged buildings thus comprimising the structural strength of these buildings.Dont compare the empire state bulding to the world trade centre,the empire state building is a properly built skyscraper and its survived nearly 80 years .

Correct. The WTC had a much larger footprint too.

Excellent next time you pull some melted exhaust valves form you engine, ponder how this happened when the exhaust gas probably didn't exceed 800 degC. Wonder at how drag engines stretch head bolts and lift heads with comparably less energy and pressure.

You can't honestly expect someone (apart from maybe one of the gang's family) would be videoing the first tower in readiness for the plane to hit. Doctored photos may be circulating, but even the best CGI can't provide images like this:

http://www.video4viet.com/watchvideo.html?id=BvvUKZc58Gc&title=Ultra 500+ Zoom Of First Wtc Hit 9/11

YouTube- Never before seen Video of WTC 9/11 attack

MzCLaSsY who cares if you are "Australian Muslim", first and foremost you should consider yourself Aussie and do what most of us have done for generations, keep your religious beliefs private. You might find the world is a better place if you go with the program and graduate to secularism.

[MzCLaSsY]

^^^^^ Ellistwo


First of all, learn to have a little more respect and consideration to others, I CARE that I am a MUSLIM AUSTRALIAN, I am not first and foremost an Aussie, I am a Muslim and then I am an Aussie. I do not want to keep my religious beliefs private as I have nothing to hide and I believe this being a forum I can express my views the way I want. You can keep that so called “program” and (in the nicest possible way), stick it where the sun don’t shine…  You’re a true example of an uneducated narrow minded individual who obviously thinks he knows everything.

[Ellistwo]

^^^^^ Ellistwo


First of all, learn to have a little more respect and consideration to others, I CARE that I am a MUSLIM AUSTRALIAN, I am not first and foremost an Aussie, I am a Muslim and then I am an Aussie. I do not want to keep my religious beliefs private as I have nothing to hide and I believe this being a forum I can express my views the way I want. You can keep that so called “program” and (in the nicest possible way), stick it where the sun don’t shine…  You’re a true example of an uneducated narrow minded individual who obviously thinks he knows everything.

Well see now you've moved the tone to religious persecution because you are a Muslim, big wow. This is the same shite our Federation founders tried to stamp out by subscribing to a secular society. I don't care if you are a Hindu Baptist, using the religous card to demand respect is playing on the tolerance the rest of us value.

You protest at being lumped in as part of a mob, then protest you belong to the mob. Why should any of us try to understand the ins and outs of your religion, the bloke's next door, the guy with purple skin down the street, when we have a society that works perfectly well with out it. Keep Islam to yourself and stop trying to take over something that ain't broke and don't need fixing.

Muslim first Aussie second eh, how friggin patriotic is that. I bet you would make a great war buddy in the trenches if and when we have a big one.

[jd biddle]

Hopefully its not just me but when i re-watch that footage of the planes flying into the buildings it makes me sick in the stomach :spew:

yes mate im with you i try not to let my kids see anymore footage of this its just crazy what happend that day very sad for a lot off people incent poeple too just going about there day.... america atacked and all for what a religon or some beleaf in some one or something just crazy stuff i say... cant we all just get along in this world we all breath the same air........... try and explain to my 6 year old he say what happend there dad why did they do that for dad i just dont no what to say to him

[jrckelley]

^^^^^ Ellistwo


First of all, learn to have a little more respect and consideration to others, I CARE that I am a MUSLIM AUSTRALIAN, I am not first and foremost an Aussie, I am a Muslim and then I am an Aussie. I do not want to keep my religious beliefs private as I have nothing to hide and I believe this being a forum I can express my views the way I want. You can keep that so called “program” and (in the nicest possible way), stick it where the sun don’t shine…  You’re a true example of an uneducated narrow minded individual who obviously thinks he knows everything.

no sure I want to get involved in this but... i think this is where people see a problem with religion (any religion) when they put it before the country they live in. Basically family is first then country then whatever you want.

I don’t carry any baggage in Aus from my family/racial/religious heritage (and like most Australians I could).

I have Asian /Arab /Jew /and black friends and they are all just Australians. that why it’s such a cool country. And the best thing is, the easy going lifestyle is so attractive it only takes 2 generations at most to succumb to this lifestyle philosophy

anyway, Back OT, i heard Osama is hiding out with curt cobain and Vince Foster at mount st helens and they are about to release a kewl new album this christmas - bill gates is executive producer(see if you get the reference) -

[MzCLaSsY]

Well see now you've moved the tone to religious persecution because you are a Muslim, big wow. This is the same shite our Federation founders tried to stamp out by subscribing to a secular society. I don't care if you are a Hindu Baptist, using the religous card to demand respect is playing on the tolerance the rest of us value.

You protest at being lumped in as part of a mob, then protest you belong to the mob. Why should any of us try to understand the ins and outs of your religion, the bloke's next door, the guy with purple skin down the street, when we have a society that works perfectly well with out it. Keep Islam to yourself and stop trying to take over something that ain't broke and don't need fixing.

Muslim first Aussie second eh, how friggin patriotic is that. I bet you would make a great war buddy in the trenches if and when we have a big one.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT – I belong to Islam, I do not belong to terrorism those are 2 totally different “mobs”. I did not ask you to understand the in’s and out’s of Islam nor will I ever, its up to each individual to educate themselves and have a broad mind to understand why Australia become multicultural and accepted everyone, regardless of religion or culture. I am not trying to fix anything, I mentioned I was a Muslim and I gave my 2 cents worth but as usual there’s always 1 black sheep who wants to attack and tell me I should keep my religion to myself, how about um NO!!

Believe me, I am more loyal to Australia then you ever will be… My religion comes before my nationality.

[jd biddle]

Well see now you've moved the tone to religious persecution because you are a Muslim, big wow. This is the same shite our Federation founders tried to stamp out by subscribing to a secular society. I don't care if you are a Hindu Baptist, using the religous card to demand respect is playing on the tolerance the rest of us value.

You protest at being lumped in as part of a mob, then protest you belong to the mob. Why should any of us try to understand the ins and outs of your religion, the bloke's next door, the guy with purple skin down the street, when we have a society that works perfectly well with out it. Keep Islam to yourself and stop trying to take over something that ain't broke and don't need fixing.

Muslim first Aussie second eh, how friggin patriotic is that. I bet you would make a great war buddy in the trenches if and when we have a big one.

dido well said my country comes before my religon thats just the way i feal id go in the trenches to fight for this country cause we live in the best country in the world we have peace and good law and order hear.....and freedom...

[MzCLaSsY]

dido well said my country comes before my religon thats just the way i feal id go in the trenches to fight for this country cause we live in the best country in the world we have peace and good law and order hear

So would I, like I said in my previous comments, I will fight for this country as much as any one of you would, if not MORE!!!

[Ellistwo]

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT – I belong to Islam, I do not belong to terrorism those are 2 totally different “mobs”. I did not ask you to understand the in’s and out’s of Islam nor will I ever, its up to each individual to educate themselves and have a broad mind to understand why Australia become multicultural and accepted everyone, regardless of religion or culture. I am not trying to fix anything, I mentioned I was a Muslim and I gave my 2 cents worth but as usual there’s always 1 black sheep who wants to attack and tell me I should keep my religion to myself, how about um NO!!

Believe me, I am more loyal to Australia then you ever will be… My religion comes before my nationality.

You a bit tapped in the head? No one has suggested you are a terrorist nor that you support it. You are a victim of your own rhetoric. My protest is you just had to put your indignant two cents in about being Muslim. It had nothing to do with the context of the posts, but you just couldn't help shine the light on yourself.

None of us are the fools you think we are. You can never be as patriotic as me, you have proved that with your stated order of priorities. Thankfully jrckelley is right, a few generations usually flushes out the remnants of fanatical Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Jedis, etc while we wait foir the next wave of refugees from culturally backward , old world, enthnically challenged countries who try to push their sky fairies and viciousness on anyone they can infect.

[Excellent]

http://www.video4viet.com/watchvideo.html?id=BvvUKZc58Gc&title=Ultra 500+ Zoom Of First Wtc Hit 9/11

YouTube- Never before seen Video of WTC 9/11 attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Qu6eyyr4c&feature=related)


That image is FAKE (actually both are)!

Pause the second footage at 24s to the point where the plane has penetrated the building.

Q. What do you see?
A. No flames, no debris, nothing well after the point of contact.

Go ahead, stop it at the 24s mark when the plane enters the picture, it’s easy to do.

This video is doctored. That is so obvious I'm surprised you can't see it for yourself! :confused:

Anyway, I didn't want for this thread to turn nasty, I just wanted to introduce some thought provoking discussion. :)

[Ellistwo]

Idon't see what you are getting at. Do you think there should be instant flames and explosion at the plane noses the building? The wings carry the fuel.

Don't worry about me giving MzCLaSsY a talking to, he's Aussie, he can take it.:D I know I don't give a rats.

[Cool Daddy]

I think what MZCLASSY was trying to say initially is that Post 9-11 created a wave of ISLAMAPHOBIA and he feels that a lot of tolerant law abiding Muslims were and are unfairly targeted by narrow minded idiots that automatically brand all Muslims as Terrorists.9-11 Diddnt help,this created a lot of fear in our community about sleeper cells etc-remember the cronulla riots,created by racial intolerance on both sides.

MZCLASSY this post isnt obout the racial divide in our community,tolerance is important on both sides of the fence.I myself am an Aussie ( Ethnic Greek Orthodox background),born and bred in Australia and am proud to call my self an aussie,that doesnt mean Ive given up my ethnic roots,I speak fluent Greek and respect my Greek Heritage but Iam Proud to be an Aussie,you should be calling yourself an Australian Muslim because this is where you live.

Remember we all came here to make a better life for ourselves.

[Ellistwo]

I think what MZCLASSY was trying to say initially is that Post 9-11 created a wave of ISLAMAPHOBIA and he feels that a lot of tolerant law abiding Muslims were and are unfairly targeted by narrow minded idiots that automatically brand all Muslims as Terrorists.9-11 Diddnt help,this created a lot of fear in our community about sleeper cells etc-remember the cronulla riots,created by racial intolerance on both sides.

..

I think we all know where he was coming from, he just lacks the faith in people who aren't Muslim to distingush.

When I go to Malaysia do the locals make a point of telling me they are Muslims, no, do they ask what religion I am, no, do they sit around bellyaching at how unfair the world is, no, do I bellyache about not having bacon for breakfast, yes, do I observe their laws and respect their faith, yes, do I try to foist my beliefs on them, no, do I think Malaysians are a wonderful people, you betcha. When I go to England do I give the Poms curry, of course I do.

[PBoB]

Excellent, do you seriously believe that the US government, tracked down each and every person who took video footage of the attacks, and commandeered their recordings for the purposes of 'doctoring', then just simply returned them to their cameramen??

Or

Do you believe that the US government strategically placed agents throughout NYC in an effort to capture "real footage" to then take it to a photo lab, 'doctor' it, and then release it to the public??

Which is it?? Or if I am completely off the mark, please, enlighten me. Because I fail to see how it's possible to have every single piece of footage recovered, you can't, because it's not. There would be at LEAST one person out there, with real, un-edited footage. And don't you think it would have come to light by now??

[Excellent]

I’m of the opinion that the plane crashes didn’t happen. The images we are seeing are those released by the US government. However, it’s quite clear to me that the images are superimposed. Image of the plane flying and the image of the WTC towers are separate images. The two images were superimposed to give the impression that the planes crashed through the buildings.

Example: The plane doesn’t distort as it enters through the building(s) and the buildings themselves appear to be standing solid after the impact and the flames and such are just some creative bit of Hollywood cinematography.

There are no “real world” images of planes crashing into buildings otherwise we would also have had an image of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, don’t you think? Try searching for the video image of that one! :eyes:

[BossV8]

On one of the vids posted there was a link to another video showing 2 other white passenger planes flying around the area just after the 1st 2 hit, I'de never seen or heard of those ones before?

I think the US govt or someone involved with them did have some sort of knowledge or involvement in the day's events, but I don't believe all the stories, some are outright unbelievable. Witnesses saw the plan hit the pentagon yet there is no decent footage, but then again the cctv tapes were confiscated from the servo's and motels surrounding the area directly after the crash. Some say it was a rocket, but I think people wouldn't mistake a rocket for an aeroplane.

[5.7ute]

I'm not sure where Bin laden is, but I do believe he has taken a few forum members sanity with him.:rofl:

[rgmast]

I'm not sure where Bin laden is, but I do believe he has taken a few forum members sanity with him.:rofl:

+1 some of the stuff written here is amazing, why dont we change subject and talk about the first moon landing

[Spider]

+1 some of the stuff written here is amazing, why dont we change subject and talk about the first moon landing
But they didn't land on the moon,they made that up.



Oh no! what have I said,that will get em carrying on like a frog in a sock :rofl:

[BEARWOOD]

On one of the vids posted there was a link to another video showing 2 other white passenger planes flying around the area just after the 1st 2 hit, I'de never seen or heard of those ones before?

I think the US govt or someone involved with them did have some sort of knowledge or involvement in the day's events, but I don't believe all the stories, some are outright unbelievable. Witnesses saw the plan hit the pentagon yet there is no decent footage, but then again the cctv tapes were confiscated from the servo's and motels surrounding the area directly after the crash. Some say it was a rocket, but I think people wouldn't mistake a rocket for an aeroplane.

I think the type of plane that crashed into the Pentagon is what alot of people debate, something to do with the wing span doesn't match the type of plane the government says hit it.

Regarding the other posts about being an aussie, what is that these days? Out here in the scrub we're still a plenty but head to the cities and real aussies are few & far between! Just because you live in Australia doesn't make you an Aussie! We have now become so multicultural that Australia has lost it's identity.

[vz6.0]

I’m of the opinion that the plane crashes didn’t happen. The images we are seeing are those released by the US government. However, it’s quite clear to me that the images are superimposed. Image of the plane flying and the image of the WTC towers are separate images. The two images were superimposed to give the impression that the planes crashed through the buildings.

Example: The plane doesn’t distort as it enters through the building(s) and the buildings themselves appear to be standing solid after the impact and the flames and such are just some creative bit of Hollywood cinematography.

There are no “real world” images of planes crashing into buildings otherwise we would also have had an image of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, don’t you think? Try searching for the video image of that one! :eyes:

you sir, are an idiot.

You should find a different brand of foil for your hat, obviously the Al has leached in and destroyed what little sanity you may have once claimed.

To all you other deadshits, a youtube link to some wackjobs rantings or dodgy website URL does not lend any credence to your patently ridiculous ravings.

You lot are clearly ignorant, definitely foolish, and quite possibly dangerous, i just hope you subscribe to darwins theory also and have yourself sterilised post haste for the good of the gene pool.

[BEARWOOD]

you sir, are an idiot.

You should find a different brand of foil for your hat, obviously the Al has leached in and destroyed what little sanity you may have once claimed.

To all you other deadshits, a youtube link to some wackjobs rantings or dodgy website URL does not lend any credence to your patently ridiculous ravings.

You lot are clearly ignorant, definitely foolish, and quite possibly dangerous, i just hope you subscribe to darwins theory also and have yourself sterilised post haste for the good of the gene pool.

you sir, are a funny man.

theres always going to be conspiracy theories with something that big and which is still continuing through the wars in Afghan & Iraq but in saying that surely you don't believe everything the media releases or the president of the USA tells you.

[Cool Daddy]

I start a thread about Bin Laden and this is where we end up talking eachother down ,Bearwood define real Aussie?,I dont mind drifting off and talking about 9-11 and the war on terror and hearing conspiracy theories about 9-11 -theres nothing wrong with that but keep the religion and whos the real Aussie BS out of this thread.

[duke5700]

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee212/spetsnazx/Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_.jpg

[BEARWOOD]

I start a thread about Bin Laden and this is where we end up talking eachother down ,Bearwood define real Aussie?,I dont mind drifting off and talking about 9-11 and the war on terror and hearing conspiracy theories about 9-11 -theres nothing wrong with that but keep the religion and whos the real Aussie BS out of this thread.

Cool Down Cool Daddy....
Bob "the plumber" Hatfield from Wandin Valley is the answer to your question..

[troytroy]

I'm actually quite surprised at the level of paranoia by some forum members. If people believe that the US government would kill 3,000 of its own people so it could send troops into Iraq and Afghanistan to lose more troops....and doctor hundreds of minutes of footage and photos simultaneously......if you believe that, there is no hope of any rational person convincing them otherwise. A waste of an argument. It would be like convincing a religious fanatic that his religion is flawed. Even if there were a thousand reasons and examples they would never believe it anyway, valid evidence would be discounted, irrational arguments would be used to respond, no reason would be trusted, why bother?

.........Like comparing a 15 ton B-25 flying into the Empire state building against a faster 115 ton passenger jet with significantly more fuel into a building - valid argument - solved - done. The hijacking recordings - fake? - still photos by civillians and foreign nationals - fake? The US is the land of conspiracies, they have conspiracies about everything no matter how mundane, they have a population of over 200 million people with a significant amount of nutty wack job, uneducated weirdos on some hard drugs - so there's always plenty of people who'll listen. Thankfully Australia is a little more pragmatic over conspiracies - thanks to a largely educated population

Doctored footage - honestly ANYONE who wants to beleive anything will say that something countering their argument was based on doctored footage - goodamn digital processing - we can't believe anything anymore, can we?.... unless it helps our argument and then we believe that, that footage is the real deal.....ah the paranoia rounda about.

[forcedindction]

you sir, are an idiot.

You should find a different brand of foil for your hat, obviously the Al has leached in and destroyed what little sanity you may have once claimed.

To all you other deadshits, a youtube link to some wackjobs rantings or dodgy website URL does not lend any credence to your patently ridiculous ravings.

You lot are clearly ignorant, definitely foolish, and quite possibly dangerous, i just hope you subscribe to darwins theory also and have yourself sterilised post haste for the good of the gene pool.

Totally agree. How can anyone say that the footage (from multiple cameras) was doctored :banghead:

[Cool Daddy]

Well said Troytroy,you nailed it!.No conspiracy with what happened other than the idiots who designed the world trade centre.You know its been 8 years since 9-11 yet looking back it still hard to accept the fact that two commercial planes leveled the World trade centre.

[SSThunderute]

This thread is by far the best i've seen in ages!!! More twists an turns than The Bold And The Beautiful. Goes from 9/11 conspiracy theories to muslim bashing and hopefully we'll get onto the moon landing and is Elvis really dead.....?

And Excellent seriously mate what sort of shit are you smoking, do you believe that the CIA sorta nipped around to the 100 000 people walking around on the ground in New York and said "he fella wanna make $20, when the media turns up here do you just wanna tell em that you saw a plane crash into the building, were just gonna blow it up with explosives but were getting everyone here to say it was a plane hey hey wink wink nudge nudge, good onya heres ya $20"

*Ah wheres my popcorn got to*

[jd biddle]

This thread is by far the best i've seen in ages!!! More twists an turns than The Bold And The Beautiful. Goes from 9/11 conspiracy theories to muslim bashing and hopefully we'll get onto the moon landing and is Elvis really dead.....?

And Excellent seriously mate what sort of shit are you smoking, do you believe that the CIA sorta nipped around to the 100 000 people walking around on the ground in New York and said "he fella wanna make $20, when the media turns up here do you just wanna tell em that you saw a plane crash into the building, were just gonna blow it up with explosives but were getting everyone here to say it was a plane hey hey wink wink nudge nudge, good onya heres ya $20"

*Ah wheres my popcorn got to*

ive got the tripple butter popcorn one right now mmmmmmmm lol

[Excellent]

you sir, are an idiot.

You should find a different brand of foil for your hat, obviously the Al has leached in and destroyed what little sanity you may have once claimed.

To all you other deadshits, a youtube link to some wackjobs rantings or dodgy website URL does not lend any credence to your patently ridiculous ravings.

You lot are clearly ignorant, definitely foolish, and quite possibly dangerous, i just hope you subscribe to darwins theory also and have yourself sterilised post haste for the good of the gene pool.

You sir, have clearly been exposed to the propaganda machine and have clearly accepted that version as fact.

I am not surprised by your reaction. It is typical of those who have not seen or even bothered to accept that some events lend to some doubts in one's mind.

Anyway, just because you are good at getting personal does not make your statement factual nor does it make any of my comments inaccurate. Ridiculing someone without providing anything worthy to counter an argument describes a hollow person.

I am not dangerous, just opinionated. Is that a crime or do you just despise free speech if it isn't in line with your own personal agenda?

I guess you also believe that the US is run by their president? If you believe that then I'm sure Santa will again place a nice present under your Xmas tree this year.

Me, I have no time for Xmas, nor do I purposefully observe any religious events (even though my upbringing is Christian). Don't tell me you celebrate Xmas even though you don't believe in it? Doesn't that make you dangerous or just hypocritical?

[Excellent]

This thread is by far the best i've seen in ages!!! More twists an turns than The Bold And The Beautiful. Goes from 9/11 conspiracy theories to muslim bashing and hopefully we'll get onto the moon landing and is Elvis really dead.....?

And Excellent seriously mate what sort of shit are you smoking, do you believe that the CIA sorta nipped around to the 100 000 people walking around on the ground in New York and said "he fella wanna make $20, when the media turns up here do you just wanna tell em that you saw a plane crash into the building, were just gonna blow it up with explosives but were getting everyone here to say it was a plane hey hey wink wink nudge nudge, good onya heres ya $20"

*Ah wheres my popcorn got to*

If only you did some research on who actually 'runs' the US.

If you run the following industries you essentially grab the country by the balls....

Finance
Media (TV and newspaper)
Pornography
Film
Pharmaceuticals
Precious Metals
Law

etc......

.......... and that invariably sets the course in running politics.

[Cool Daddy]

Excellent as I have said previously your entitled to share your opinion on 9-11 as an alternative to what most people believe actually happened,theres nothing wrong with that!

[BEARWOOD]

Excellent, are you really saying that no planes at all hit the WTC and that every video of it was a fake? I'm all for freedom of speech & thoughts but it's hard to comprehend that you actually believe that. I myself don't think it's as clear cut as they would like you to think but it's hard to dismiss that planes actually hit it. Maybe the US government had prior knowledge and didn't do enough to stop it or maybe they organised it, who knows but i'm pretty sure a plane hit the buildings.

[Gee]

If only you did some research on who actually 'runs' the US.

If you run the following industries you essentially grab the country by the balls....

Finance
Media (TV and newspaper)
Pornography
Film
Pharmaceuticals
Precious Metals
Law

etc......

.......... and that invariably sets the course in running politics.

My god... I'd never thought of it like that... you mean that

- law
- finance
- media
- pharmaceuticals
- precious metals

runs a country???

What a scoop :lmao:

Let me guess Excellent - it's those damn Jews again :jester:

[SHANESVZSS]

i agree with above comments , i highly doubt the the US it self knew OR organised 9/11 in anyway shape or form , this is a country that would send its whole army to war to save ONE of its own..

[Ellistwo]

This thread is by far the best i've seen in ages!!! More twists an turns than The Bold And The Beautiful. Goes from 9/11 conspiracy theories to muslim bashing and hopefully we'll get onto the moon landing and is Elvis really dead.....?

And Excellent seriously mate what sort of shit are you smoking, do you believe that the CIA sorta nipped around to the 100 000 people walking around on the ground in New York and said "he fella wanna make $20, when the media turns up here do you just wanna tell em that you saw a plane crash into the building, were just gonna blow it up with explosives but were getting everyone here to say it was a plane hey hey wink wink nudge nudge, good onya heres ya $20"

*Ah wheres my popcorn got to*

All a bit of fun.

I wonder how they managed to fix C4 charges and runout wires to the strucural columns without the tenants noticing. Maybe they were built ins during construction and part of a master plan by the US govt to blow buildings up if they fell into an invading enemy's hands? The force of the explosions obviously sucked the planes into the vacuum, which would explain a lot.

[Excellent]

Excellent, are you really saying that no planes at all hit the WTC and that every video of it was a fake? I'm all for freedom of speech & thoughts but it's hard to comprehend that you actually believe that. I myself don't think it's as clear cut as they would like you to think but it's hard to dismiss that planes actually hit it. Maybe the US government had prior knowledge and didn't do enough to stop it or maybe they organised it, who knows but i'm pretty sure a plane hit the buildings.

No matter which image you look at (plane flying into building or building flying into plane :jester:) the images are not actual. All you can do is slow it down at the point of impact (frame by frame) and judge for yourself. The official images I've looked at don't look like that of a typical collision with debris flying everywhere at the point impact. The planes appear to enter the buildings like a ghost followed by a fireball. There doesn't appear to be any/much debris post impact - Hollywood stuff. As I said, I saw images of a series of explosions that brought the buildings down at that instant. That's more plausible from my perspective.

However, it's up to you to believe what you want. I've backed up my views with scientific support and 'personal commonsense'. I know people would think I'm a complete nutcase but that is always the case when you decide to go out on a limb and cast doubt on something people believe they actually saw.

Do I believe in all 'conspiracies'. No. But 9/11 is vastly different in that all the images seem to be cleaned up (free of smoldering ash or debris) or seem to be unnaturally edited (like the released image of the plane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon).

Provocative topic indeed.

[PBoB]

If only you did some research on who actually 'runs' the US.

If you run the following industries you essentially grab the country by the balls....

Finance
Media (TV and newspaper)
Pornography
Film
Pharmaceuticals
Precious Metals
Law...

:lmao:
:lmao:
:lmao:
:lmao:

How the HELL, does pornography RUN a country?? :shock:

I think you should change your username Excellent, to XR6TGEN. :yup:

[Excellent]

:lmao:
:lmao:
:lmao:
:lmao:

How the HELL, does pornography RUN a country?? :shock:

I think you should change your username Excellent, to XR6TGEN. :yup:

Well that's how you grab a country by the balls, isn't it? :jester:

The point I make (I can't explain everything in the one post or 100 posts) is that the US is run by the Jews as they basically run all the industries that matter. That being the case, the Muslims will always be their easy prey. It becomes a case of Jews vs Muslims.

So how are we 'Christians' involved? Simple, we happen to work in the industries controlled by the Jews. We are mere followers of theirs. We believe their propaganda via the media, we buy their drugs, we borrow their money, we....

[5.7ute]

All a bit of fun.

I wonder how they managed to fix C4 charges and runout wires to the strucural columns without the tenants noticing. Maybe they were built ins during construction and part of a master plan by the US govt to blow buildings up if they fell into an invading enemy's hands? The force of the explosions obviously sucked the planes into the vacuum, which would explain a lot.

A dingo with a suspicous package was seen entering the building moments before the explosion.

[jd biddle]

No matter which image you look at (plane flying into building or building flying into plane :jester:) the images are not actual. All you can do is slow it down at the point of impact (frame by frame) and judge for yourself. The official images I've looked at don't look like that of a typical collision with debris flying everywhere at the point impact. The planes appear to enter the buildings like a ghost followed by a fireball. There doesn't appear to be any/much debris post impact - Hollywood stuff. As I said, I saw images of a series of explosions that brought the buildings down at that instant. That's more plausible from my perspective.

However, it's up to you to believe what you want. I've backed up my views with scientific support and 'personal commonsense'. I know people would think I'm a complete nutcase but that is always the case when you decide to go out on a limb and cast doubt on something people believe they actually saw.

Do I believe in all 'conspiracies'. No. But 9/11 is vastly different in that all the images seem to be cleaned up (free of smoldering ash or debris) or seem to be unnaturally edited (like the released image of the plane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon).

Provocative topic indeed.

Are you serious come on the building just fell down bye itself did it.. America kill there own people did they ... poeple got on them aeroplanes and never got of them stupid there is records of them planes stupid wear did all them people go stupid america was attacked that day and poeple were killed stupid simple as that ....... i cant beleave you are saying america attaced ther own people this is a very bad thing to bee saying cause that just never never ever happend stupid

[Excellent]

All a bit of fun.

I wonder how they managed to fix C4 charges and runout wires to the strucural columns without the tenants noticing. Maybe they were built ins during construction and part of a master plan by the US govt to blow buildings up if they fell into an invading enemy's hands? The force of the explosions obviously sucked the planes into the vacuum, which would explain a lot.

That's 'common' knowledge if you were open to both sides of the story.


Marvin P. Bush, a younger brother of George W. Bush, was a principal in the company from 1993 to 2000, when most of the work on the big projects was done. But White House responses to 9/11 have not publicly disclosed the company's part in providing security to any of the named facilities.

Public records indicate that the firm, formerly named Securacom, had Bush on its board of directors. He was also listed as a significant shareholder. The firm, which is now named Stratesec, Inc., is located in Sterling, Va., a D.C. suburb, and emphasizes federal clients. Bush is no longer on the board.

Bush has not responded to repeated telephoned and emailed requests for comment.

The American Stock Exchange delisted Stratesec's stock in October 2002. (Securacom also had a contract to provide security at Los Alamos National Laboratories, notorious for its security breach.)

According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down." Yet instead of being investigated, the company and companies involved with it have benefited from legislation pushed by the Bush White House and rubber-stamped by Congressional Republicans. Stratesec, its backer KuwAm, and their corporate officers stand to benefit from limitations on liability and national-security protections from investigation provided in bills since 9/11.

HCC Insurance Holdings, Inc., a reinsurance corporation on whose board Marvin Bush sat as director until November 2002, similarly benefits from terrorism insurance protections. (Bush's first year on the board at HCC coincided with his last year on the board at Stratesec.) HCC, formerly Houston Casualty Company, carried some of the insurance for the World Trade Center. It posted a loss for the quarter after the attacks of Sept. 11 and dropped participation in worker's compensation as a result. Bush remains an adviser to the chairman and the Board of Directors, as well as a member of the company's investment committee.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0301/S00032.htm

[Excellent]

Are you serious come on the building just fell down bye itself did it.. America kill there own people did they ... poeple got on them aeroplanes and never got of them stupid there is records of them planes stupid wear did all them people go stupid america was attacked that day and poeple were killed stupid simple as that ....... i cant beleave you are saying america attaced ther own people this is a very bad thing to bee saying cause that just never never ever happend stupid

Put your glasses back on, dude.

For the tenth time, I said explosions brought the buildings down (all three of them if you include Building 7 which was owned by the same guy who owned the Twin Towers. See post #69 where Larry Silverstein admitted building 7 was a controlled demolition.

So what's to say the Twin Towers also weren't controlled demolitions? The way they both imploded certainly supports the theory.

It's hard to accept that the US would do that to its own citizens, but then again, the US has no qualms about sending its troops to war zones. Its people also die in huge number each year from domestic violence as well.

[jd biddle]

Put your glasses back on, dude.

For the tenth time, I said explosions brought the buildings down (all three of them if you include Building 7 which was owned by the same guy who owned the Twin Towers. See post #69 where Larry Silverstein admitted building 7 was a controlled demolition.

So what's to say the Twin Towers also weren't controlled demolitions? The way they both imploded certainly supports the theory.

It's hard to accept that the US would do that to its own citizens, but then again, the US has no qualms about sending its troops to war zones. Its people also die in huge number each year from domestic violence as well.

so what happend to the two planes did they just vanish with all them people on them i dont wear glasses dude lol

[Excellent]

so what happend to the two planes did they just vanish with all them people on them i dont wear glasses dude lol

That's my point, there were no planes. Go back a few pages. The images of the planes flying into buildings are not actual. Could you provide proof of plane wreckages in the aftermath (i.e. debris)? All the photos I've seen appear to be edited.

Example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DF-SD-04-12734.JPEG

Does this image look like the real deal to you? It's the image released by the US Government.

Where's the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon? :eyes:

[jd biddle]

That's my point, there were no planes. Go back a few pages. The images of the planes flying into buildings are not actual. Could you provide proof of plane wreckages in the aftermath (i.e. debris)? All the photos I've seen appear to be edited.

Example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DF-SD-04-12734.JPEG

Does this image look like the real deal to you? It's the image released by the US Government.

Where's the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon? :eyes:

you not listing there is proof of them flights and POPLE that are no longer on this earth mums and dads of people on them flights there gone dont you understand they were killed on them plains hitting the trade centre you say no planes but what about the people on them flights wear are they....there also evidence when family members were talking to each other on them flights

[Excellent]

you not listing there is proof of them flights and POPLE that are no longer on this earth mums and dads of people on them flights there gone dont you understand they were killed on them plains hitting the trade centre you say no planes but what about the people on them flights wear are they....there also evidence when family members were talking to each other on them flights

Are you saying you cannot open up the white pages and obtain a few names and addresses and distribute a list?

Don't make me provide evidence to suggest the people claimed to have died were not actually on the planes.

Just see the movie Zeitgeist will you? Go on, you're mature enough being 38. All the answers to your questions are explained there.

I'm just an observer like you are but I tend to focus on the technical details instead of viewing images and asking a lot of ininformed questions. Remember, I too asked the same questions as you. The more I delved, the more sense things made.

PS Didn't Tony Blair use someone's university thesis to make up events to support the invasion of Iraq? That's common knowledge but it wasn't construed as an outright fabrication as the mass media had a different focus.

[5.7ute]

That's my point, there were no planes. Go back a few pages. The images of the planes flying into buildings are not actual. Could you provide proof of plane wreckages in the aftermath (i.e. debris)? All the photos I've seen appear to be edited.

Example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DF-SD-04-12734.JPEG

Does this image look like the real deal to you? It's the image released by the US Government.

Where's the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon? :eyes:

Dont you think that all the rubble would be outside the building if it was an explosion? Or are the US using an incredible implosion bomb that sucked everything in?
You had better buy a copy of catcher in the rye to sooth your anxiety.

[Ellistwo]

Excellent, just for the record, the New York State museum has a whole wing dedicated to housing remnants of the WTC building, the planes, fire tenders, pylons/pilasters, etc. There are even coffee cups that were unscathed. It is a very sombre place. Perhaps you should visist first hand rather than take your cues from the net.

[SHANESVZSS]

just out of couriosity did they ever recover the black box's from the planes that hit the WTC??

[jd biddle]

Excellent, just for the record, the New York State museum has a whole wing dedicated to housing remnants of the WTC building, the planes, fire tenders, pylons/pilasters, etc. There are even coffee cups that were unscathed. It is a very sombre place. Perhaps you should visist first hand rather than take your cues from the net.

thank you some real facts there

[Excellent]

Dont you think that all the rubble would be outside the building if it was an explosion? Or are the US using an incredible implosion bomb that sucked everything in?
You had better buy a copy of catcher in the rye to sooth your anxiety.

NYFD say explosives brought down towers:
YouTube- 911 Truth: NYFD say Explosives brought down Towers

Images of the explosions:
YouTube- 9/11 CONSPIRACY: MORE PROOF OF BOMBS PLANTED IN THE TOWERS!!

George Bush tripping over his words describing "explosions" instead of terrorist attacks:
YouTube- Bush talks about EXPLOSIVES in building (on 9/11?)

Ellistwo, you really should quit making these incorrect assumptions. For the record, I've been there (NYC) twice and have been to ground zero once after 9/11 (in June, 2005). Yes it is a sombre place and it is definitely no place for me to spread my word to the masses. Quit that side of your game, please.

[Ellistwo]

Then you knew they had parts of the planes and chose not to say so?

On your frames query, have you considered that it may be a function of the codec used to make the web pictures? Were they shot in frame mode, DV mode, HDV mode, etc?

[vz6.0]

must remember to tell a friend of mine that the second plane HE PERSONALLY SAW didnt really exist, and it was merely a hallucination caused by the coriolis effect because his circulatory system hadnt had time to adjust to being in the northern hemisphere.

Either that, or the second plane was a "mass hysteria" event caused after the first holographic plane projection was used to cover up the controlled explosion of the first tower by the zionist dictators that really run the world.

Im naive to believe him of course, because a persons sighting of an event and NOT being under the influence of alcohol, drugs, yiddish magic spells, or vulcan mindmelds pales into insignificance against an obviously disturbed individuals linking to possibly more disturbed "theorists" on what actually occured.

what a fcuken waste of bandwidth...Im out.

[Excellent]

Then you knew they had parts of the planes and chose not to say so?

On your frames query, have you considered that it may be a function of the codec used to make the web pictures? Were they shot in frame mode, DV mode, HDV mode, etc?

I can't recall any parts of planes displayed but I can recall a lot of the images posted on billboards and flower arrangements from visitors and grievers. There was one free-standing structure there that remained of the Towers and I took photos of that I recall.

Even if they did have parts of planes displayed, it doesn't mean they were sourced from the destruction site. You are making assumptions again but in no way do your assumptions explain anything meaningful - a planet glove wasn't evidence enough to convict OJ Simpson was it?

Your frames theory doesn't explain how the image of the plane is sharper than the grainy foreground/background objects, nor is it enough to explain for the laws of physics that apply when two objects collide.

This is the more dubious of videos released on 9/11 as it shows the plane disappears into the building and fireball ensues without debris falling. There are even clearer close up images of this vision that tend to show these details more clearly.

YouTube- Slow motion of second plane crashing into south tower

SHANESVZSS, yes there were flight recorders found but they were missing serial numbers. :1peek:

http://www.911blogger.com/node/14081

[Hi Octane]

Elvis organised it all with Tupac!!!!!

[BEARWOOD]

Excellent, what do you say about the people that saw the plane hit the building?

What do you say about the people who had families etc on these planes? Do you really think they made hundreads of names up, surely someone would know one of those names if they wern't really dead.
You say to prove that a plane did hit the buildings, can you prove it didn't?

I'm not against your ideas but i just want to know how you explain some of your theories. I don't think it's all cut & dry but some of your opinions are out there...

[Ellistwo]

I can't recall any parts of planes displayed but I can recall a lot of the images posted on billboards and flower arrangements from visitors and grievers. There was one free-standing structure there that remained of the Towers and I took photos of that I recall.

Even if they did have parts of planes displayed, it doesn't mean they were sourced from the destruction site. You are making assumptions again but in no way do your assumptions explain anything meaningful - a planet glove wasn't evidence enough to convict OJ Simpson was it?

Your frames theory doesn't explain how the image of the plane is sharper than the grainy foreground/background objects, nor is it enough to explain for the laws of physics that apply when two objects collide.

]

You ever taken a flick of a fast moving object? The object is invariably in focus while the background is slightly blurred. The codec can interpolate with some synch errors. Have you tried the same skepticism to say a youtube vid of Mick Jagger bouncing around on stage, one web frame his hands are in the air the next down by his side...what happened to the missing frames... it's a conspiracy I tell ya.

The bits and bobs are not at ground zero, they in the museum.

[Excellent]

Excellent, what do you say about the people that saw the plane hit the building?

What do you say about the people who had families etc on these planes? Do you really think they made hundreads of names up, surely someone would know one of those names if they wern't really dead.
You say to prove that a plane did hit the buildings, can you prove it didn't?

I'm not against your ideas but i just want to know how you explain some of your theories. I don't think it's all cut & dry but some of your opinions are out there...

Here's a few links explaining that the passenger lists were full of holes.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/passengers.html
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread352827/pg1
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hijackers.html
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message805013/pg1

Of these articles, the most disturbing information is this:


National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States

The muscle hijackers 'picked by bin Ladin':

Satam al Suqami, Wail and Waleed al Shehri (two brothers) Both Alive, Abdul Aziz al Omari Alive, Fayez Banihammad (from the UAE), Ahmed al Ghamdi, Hamza al Ghamdi, Mohand al Shehri Alive, Saeed al Ghamdi Alive, Ahmad al Haznawi, Ahmed al Nami Alive, Majed Moqed, and Salem al Hazmi Alive (the brother of Nawaf al Hazmi).

How can the 9/11 Commission be taken seriously when they refer to alive 'hijackers'?



Re: 9/11: What happened to the people on the 4 planes?

'The Social Security Death Index (SSDI) is a privately owned website that is not affiliated with Social Security.' In fact, it is a database and query for obtaining information on the names of deceased Americans. He continues, 'It boasts an accuracy rate of about 83%...To check its reliability, I input the names of people I knew that had died in my family along with friends and neighbors... and with the exception of a cousin, I found everyone I was looking for.' Searching for the 9-11 victims names in the registry, Sammartino writes that on Mr. Todd Beamer's Flight 93, 'of the 45 people who are listed as dying in this flight, only six are listed in the Social Security Death Index (13%).'


Apparently, some of the passengers were already listed as dead well before the date of 9-11. :confused:

Ellistwo, sorry I thought you were referring to ground zero. I did not attend the museum.

If the video is poor quality then it doesn't do your argument more good than it does mine. :)

[Excellent]

BEARWOOD, I left this piece of info out (from the second link above):


Faxes of Alleged Flight Manifests

At around the time that the Moussaoui trial exhibits appeared, a seven-page set of faxes purported to be the original flight manifests was published on a weblog claiming that they were from the Moussaoui trial exhibits. If the faxes are in the exhibits, they are not easy to find: the prosecution trial exhibits number 977, and include many huge, uninformatively-described files requiring media players such as Flash to view. 8 According to the 911myths.com website the fax images were obtained from the FBI by Terry McDermott while researching his book Perfect Soldiers. 9 The faxes, reproduced below, include the names of the alleged hijackers.

[troytroy]

EXCELLENT, I like the fact you're countering a common opinion and welcome the effort your putting into supporting your case... (unlike some who are just countering with no back up)

However be careful about what is actually scientific and factual and what is internet garbage designed to look factual by people who may or may not be subject matter experts in their field and who may or may not have agendas.

Internet imagery and statements by lay persons both for and against can never be construed as 'evidence' (and anything I say for that matter in this forum). If a diverse group of qualified Civil Engineers and Explosive's experts say it was an explosion or aeroplane etc then I would believe that. Crazy internet conspiracy videos with varying levels of fact cunningly interspersed with assumptions and agendas by people who are either, not even educated or do not have any relevant qualifications in the required field - don't cut it.

The other thing that is difficult to get around is the incredible numbers of witnesses and people involved. Statistically some of which should theoretically have no agendas or even opposing agendas such as foreigners and Arabic background witnesses that say they saw it etc. Having a cover up on such a scale with many people does not make a good start for a conspiracy (assuming you intend to start one - you would limit the amount of people involved as people are unpredictable and unreliable in the thanks to emotions and greed. If so 911 would have to be a very crappy conspiracy poorly planned and conceived - wouldn't you kill less people for a start - killing half as many people would have had the same long term effect?


Have a look through your evidence and discount those with agendas and with no reference to qualifications, valid source material or don't have a balanced argument and see what you have left. The internet is not a good starting place - hence why Universities cringe when they see students using it as reference material and/or they don't allow it at all.

[Cool Daddy]

Excellent I got to hand it to you for being consistant in your efforts to prove that 9-11 was one big conspiracy,I just dont understand why things have to get blown out of proportion -ie the whole conspiracy theory on 9-11 to actually have happened as you and many other believers say would require a whole host of possibilities/probabilities to have played out at the exact time of impact on both buildings,to many dots to connect to actually come up with a way to plan 9-11 the way conspiracy theorists speculate it happened.

[team illucid]

. If so 911 would have to be a very crappy conspiracy poorly planned and conceived - wouldn't you kill less people for a start - killing half as many people would have had the same long term effect?
.

no - to create shock and horror amongst the population, you need to affect as many people as possible. This angst, multiplies across those affected and all they interact with. Within hours, it spreads through word of mouth, until with 24-48 hours, you have mass anguish, and calls for retribution.

If it had been a REAL terrorist attack, it would have made more sense to fly into a football stadium, or a nuclear facility, or crash into JFK or LAX, and kill thousands more people.

I believe it was well orchestrated political play, to give the US the backing of the people in going to war. Afghanistan is just a front, the real prize is Pakistan.

[rgmast]

no - to create shock and horror amongst the population, you need to affect as many people as possible. This angst, multiplies across those affected and all they interact with. Within hours, it spreads through word of mouth, until with 24-48 hours, you have mass anguish, and calls for retribution.

If it had been a REAL terrorist attack, it would have made more sense to fly into a football stadium, or a nuclear facility, or crash into JFK or LAX, and kill thousands more people.

I believe it was well orchestrated political play, to give the US the backing of the people in going to war. Afghanistan is just a front, the real prize is Pakistan.

So ya saying knocking out the WORLD TRADE CENTRE wouldnt have an impacted on America and the world . 2 most recognised buildings in America.
What ever they did its worked we still talk about to this day.

Excellent - when do u have to go home?

[Cool Daddy]

Team Illucid,George Bush jnr had drafted plans for an invasion of Iraq long before he was elected,once elected my drafted the 5 axis of evil documents outlining his blueprint which included plans for a ground invasion of Iraq.Afghanistan was not at all on US plans for invasion,the Yanks knew about the threat of Bin Laden during Bill Clintons era and had plenty of opportunities to eliminate Bin Laden but never bothered with it.

The bush administration saw no real value in Afghanistan and if it wasnt for 9-11 the US would never have set foot on Afghan soil.

No conspiracy was required for the US to invade iraq,it would have happened with or without 9-11.

[troytroy]

no - to create shock and horror amongst the population, you need to affect as many people as possible. This angst, multiplies across those affected and all they interact with. Within hours, it spreads through word of mouth, until with 24-48 hours, you have mass anguish, and calls for retribution.

If it had been a REAL terrorist attack, it would have made more sense to fly into a football stadium, or a nuclear facility, or crash into JFK or LAX, and kill thousands more people.

I believe it was well orchestrated political play, to give the US the backing of the people in going to war. Afghanistan is just a front, the real prize is Pakistan.

Your postulation that it takes many deaths to get a strong message across is basically true, but I think it would be only for statistical analysis whether 1,500 or 2,000 or 3,000 or indeed 10,000 people's death would get the message or 'desired' effect. However just remember it only took one's person death to start World War One........and it had far wider implications and outcomes than the War on Terror which took 3,000ish. The GWOT was already warming up well before the WTC attacks anyway - with Embassy bombings a failed attack on the WTC previously etc, so it's not like the ball hadn't started rolling.

It's ironic you mentioned a Nuclear facility - the Americans did testing on this theory using an F4 Phantom jet against reinforced concrete decades ago - google it - it's awesome footage. It was designed to test the theory of flying a high speed jet into a nuclear facility - and yes the core does have a hardened reinforced concrete shell. And no, a suicide jet theoretically shouldn't be effective. Stadium is good though, but it has been done to 'death' in novels before, WTC towers hadn't. Although the WTC design and build did take into account the possibility of an airliner accidently flying into it (probably more like a glancing blow). The Fire suppressant used throughout the structure that was designed to prevent fires from weakening the steel frames wasn't as prolific as the designers intended. Tons and tons of burning Jet A1 fuel is a tough design problem to mitigate in any case.

REAL Terrorist attack? What are the ingredients of a true terrorist attack? Honestly. Pakistan? who the hell would want Pakistan? Without being too culturally insensitive - you couldn't say Pakistan could be called a peaceful, politically stable, resource rich, paradise ready for the taking. There would be many other countries (and closer ones at that) that would head my list of "things to do" before I got around to Pakistan....:confused:

[team illucid]

Pakistan? who the hell would want Pakistan? Without being too culturally insensitive - you couldn't say Pakistan could be called a peaceful, politically stable, resource rich, paradise ready for the taking. There would be many other countries (and closer ones at that) that would head my list of "things to do" before I got around to Pakistan....:confused:

Pakistan is perfect - ICBM's, and a politically unstable country. If you could take over Pakistan, you could threaten the US, and turn India into a glass carpark.

[team illucid]

The bush administration saw no real value in Afghanistan and if it wasnt for 9-11 the US would never have set foot on Afghan soil.

Actually it was always planned to go into Afghanistan - have a read through the links on this page http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/afghanistan.asp

[troytroy]

Pakistan doesn't have ICBMs. It currently "only" has the lesser range Theater Ballistic Nuclear missiles which don't threaten the US directly per se. Pakistan doesn't require the technically and more expensive ICBMs (if it could make them) as it only needs a deterrent against India - which it theoretically probably has with what it already has. India is "winning", by a considerable margin, the conventional and nuclear arms race between Pakistan and India anyway.

[troytroy]

The war on terror was always going to be Afghanistan centric, notwithstanding a reluctance for a large comittment there, as that's where the majority of the Terrorist training and basing eminated from. The Iraq war was something altogether different but wrapped in the same packaging for convenience and political sake. Iraq had oil and threatened Saudi Arabia and Kuwait...and that was definately politically and economically unacceptable from the US standpoint.

[99-LS1-SS]

Makes you wonder if they really want to catch him,if they did does that mean the war on terror will end ?.I bet if he,s still alive he would be hiding in either Pakistan,Somalia,Chechyna or maybe still in Afghanistan.


If they find him, what will be the excuse for staying in the middle east?

Wars keep driving the economy, and those with a vested interest in the big banks want to keep it going, as they fund the finance for the military effort

On a serious note, I actually think this might be part of why he hasn't been killed or officially found.

[BEARWOOD]

I think if they ever do find him they will just say they need to stay there to restructure the country and get it back on it's feet, whilst bombing the F*#ck out of it. Wouldn't it be good to be the man who knows the truth of what really happened...

[Excellent]

EXCELLENT, I like the fact you're countering a common opinion and welcome the effort your putting into supporting your case... (unlike some who are just countering with no back up)

However be careful about what is actually scientific and factual and what is internet garbage designed to look factual by people who may or may not be subject matter experts in their field and who may or may not have agendas.

Internet imagery and statements by lay persons both for and against can never be construed as 'evidence' (and anything I say for that matter in this forum). If a diverse group of qualified Civil Engineers and Explosive's experts say it was an explosion or aeroplane etc then I would believe that. Crazy internet conspiracy videos with varying levels of fact cunningly interspersed with assumptions and agendas by people who are either, not even educated or do not have any relevant qualifications in the required field - don't cut it.

The other thing that is difficult to get around is the incredible numbers of witnesses and people involved. Statistically some of which should theoretically have no agendas or even opposing agendas such as foreigners and Arabic background witnesses that say they saw it etc. Having a cover up on such a scale with many people does not make a good start for a conspiracy (assuming you intend to start one - you would limit the amount of people involved as people are unpredictable and unreliable in the thanks to emotions and greed. If so 911 would have to be a very crappy conspiracy poorly planned and conceived - wouldn't you kill less people for a start - killing half as many people would have had the same long term effect?


Have a look through your evidence and discount those with agendas and with no reference to qualifications, valid source material or don't have a balanced argument and see what you have left. The internet is not a good starting place - hence why Universities cringe when they see students using it as reference material and/or they don't allow it at all.


Thanks mate. I hear you loud and clear. :)

But let's just say you were to present some of the irrefutable 'facts' in court...... it is almost laughable that the powers that be could have so many holes in their statements.

How many people claim to have seen planes hit the building? I don't know but let me digress for a moment and take you to a scenario recently where a nice number confronted the cameras in Sydney ... "One wog turned to the other wog... chk-chk-boom". She just wanted to get her face on TV. People can lie, especially if involved in the whole elaborate setup.

With the slow-motion image of the plane that hit the second tower I provided, there is conjecture that you physically cannot get to the spot where the video was taken. I recall seeing a video of the supposed cameraman who refused to talk to reporters other than to say "I'm not allowed to talk about that video, it is owned by CNN". Hmmmm

You are right, I am careful in what I choose to believe, that's why I focus on the technical details. The images do not seem real. My eyesight, thankfully isn't that bad.

As team illucid alluded to, when there is a disaster the scale of 9/11, you panic people into looking to the government for support. You believe your government will find the perpetrators and punish them. Meanwhile, you will listen to their guidance with the understanding being they will protect you, its citizen.

The result was to go to war with a country.... "and possibly another one". (Iraq didn't have any links to Al-Qaeda or terrorism - they were firmly under the dictatorship of Saddam. What gives?). Given the USA's military might, it only takes a day or two to overcome the forces of a country like Afghanistan or Iraq. Do you seriously believe it takes years to eradicate the current regime given they literally wiped out the country in 1-2 days?

Finally, I was viewing a program on ABC the other night regarding torture. The moral of the story was........... "Don't be afraid of terrorism, be afraid of the institution you cherish!"

[Excellent]

Excellent I got to hand it to you for being consistant in your efforts to prove that 9-11 was one big conspiracy,I just dont understand why things have to get blown out of proportion -ie the whole conspiracy theory on 9-11 to actually have happened as you and many other believers say would require a whole host of possibilities/probabilities to have played out at the exact time of impact on both buildings,to many dots to connect to actually come up with a way to plan 9-11 the way conspiracy theorists speculate it happened.

Understand that the US media (like most Western media) is firmly under Jewish control. They publish the same news articles on a global scale. The same agencies (like CNN) released the dubious footages of the plane crashes I described. They also released re-enactments of passengers being hijacked in planes a mere 1-2 days later. That (to me) is very suspicious. It takes longer than that to get some facts straight for more simple cases yet for 9/11, they had TV audiences gripped from the outset watching dramatisations.

Don't forget how many women Tiger Woods has bedded over the years. Why is the truth only coming out now when many people were involved?

Never underestimate the power of the media. Is it any wonder we only get news of Muslims and terrorists that are not exactly endearing? By contrast, the only news we get of the Jews is their representation in Hollywood, or as news anchors... We don't even get to hear about the control they have of their country's wealth or over-representation in politics.

I'll leave you with this thought... remember Mel Gibson's apparently absurd statement when he was arrested while driving under the influence of the truth serum? Did you understand the significance of his statement, as bizarre as it seemed? He made the statement to the arresting officer ... "if it weren't for you people, there would be no wars in this world. " or words to the effect. ;)

[Ellistwo]

..............I'll leave you with this thought... remember Mel Gibson's apparently absurd statement when he was arrested while driving under the influence of the truth serum? Did you understand the significance of his statement, as bizarre as it seemed? He made the statement to the arresting officer ... "if it weren't for you people, there would be no wars in this world. " or words to the effect. ;)

Yeah them bloody jews. Strange that a good catholic boy like Mel would say something like that, seeing as his bible makes it clear Adam was a jew, which means he's from the same bloodline. Even Abraham (Ibrahim) was a jew and the Muslims have him as their big cheese fortune tellers too. Go figure.

So what you are saying is that the jews destroyed the towers to encourage the yanks into invading the middle east, to take some of the heat off?

[Excellent]

I didn't ask you to comment on Mel Gibson. I asked about the significance of his statement. There is a difference. :)

Apart from Sarajevo, all the recent wars are mostly 'anti-Middle East'. What does the ME have that we need? Oil. Drugs. Lot's of money can be made on top of existing levels of wealth. Who pays for the wealth? It's always us, the taxpayers. Who always stands to gain the most? The stakeholders. Who are they? Bush and Bush Sr had vested interest in Oil. Cheney was formerly CEO of Haliburton, the defence contractor. As vice-president, Cheney was in charge of the oil fields (energy) in Iraq. He too stood to make money from war involvement.

Did you know that the owner of the twin towers (Larry Silverstein) made money on the towers going down by virtue of the payout from the insurance companies?

What happened to the price of oil after the invasion? It skyrocketed when we all thought it would drop by virtue of overturning the Iraqi regime of the time. Who benefited most from the rise in oil prices? The bankers (investors) who would buy up oil commodities. You can guess who exactly that would be, again. ;)

This whole novel has very little to do about Bin Laden. It's more about who stands to make the most from such events. But they will kill Bin Laden if they ever find him (if it suits them, that is, even if he might be actually be innocent of alleged plots in 9/11) ..... then the rest of the world can relax in peace.

Yeh right!!! :xmas:

[team illucid]

same old story - the Americans refused to enter into war with Germany for as many years as they could, because they were supplying the German Wehrmacht with the fuel it needed (and had a sweet deal lined up - how else could oil tankers get through the U-boat packs unprotected)

money - money - money

Churchill refused to negotiate a truce with Rudolf Hess to end WW2 in 1941 for what reason - jewish gold

money - money - money

who controls all of the money in the world - jewish bankers

so who has all the power - the jews of course and all ZOG affiliates

[vz6.0]

mels father ran/runs a jew hating church, clutching at straws and trying to tie shit into a knot, isnt winning you this debate Ex.

Can i ask you a personal question?

What began your crusade to save us all from the evil jew empire?

Nurture or Nature?

i know i said im out, but since the Mods see this thread as the kind of thing relevent to an automotive forum, staying on topic, and an ode to free speech (which we dont actually have in our system of law) i figured id check it out and play amongst the wierdos once more.:jester:

[Excellent]

mels father ran/runs a jew hating church, clutching at straws and trying to tie shit into a knot, isnt winning you this debate Ex.

Can i ask you a personal question?

What began your crusade to save us all from the evil jew empire?

Nurture or Nature?

i know i said im out, but since the Mods see this thread as the kind of thing relevent to an automotive forum, staying on topic, and an ode to free speech (which we dont actually have in our system of law) i figured id check it out and play amongst the wierdos once more.:jester:

Just to correct you there. It's the evil elitist empire we're talking about. The same mob coming up with the ETS BS.

And this is the Tar Pit - forum for free speech. We are doing nothing wrong here. :confused:

Some of the nicest people I've worked with are Jewish. So nothing personal there.

Please don't patronise us by calling us weirdos. You sir, are hypocritical of the highest degree for coming back when it suits!!!!

:soap:

[Gee]

I'm losing track, you're telling us that the fact they are Jewish has nothing to do with them being an 'evil elitist empire' of bankers and media proprietors?

Did the evil Jews also organise the holocaust of the expendable Jews for their owns ends also?

Hang on, that didnt happen either I'll bet :)

[vz6.0]

hypocrisy is using an unrelated incident to correlate to your opinions.

You know as well as i do the environmental upbringing of a child has a vast effect on the thought processes and ingrained attitudes of an adult person.

Conveniently omitting Mr Gibsons father's "occupation" and public record attitudes regarding this very subject was poor form on your part, and id hate to see the less well read amongst us carry your prejudices due to ignorance of the "facts" you present.

Never once have i claimed that the elected figurehead of a government runs their country, it never has since roman times and i dont expect it to change.

There are too, a vast number of influential people that belong to a particular race, and i have no doubt that the mainstream media is manipulated to suit various agendas not limited to one particular race of people, on that we can agree.

I do however, take great offence to your views on 9/11, and so do many other people for their own reasons.

Now just to prove im capable of scary thought just as much as you, i believe the ETS/CC debacle is nothing more than another attempt at fulfilling the "new world order" which was espoused by many organisations, not the least of which being the freemasons (google some present/past members of this group, but i suspect you already know this)

All this money changing hands will need to be administered, it will be far easier to do with one global currency, and you can elect whoever you like but it wont make a difference to what your country is told to do.

I like you Ex, youve brightened up an otherwise miserable week:xmas:

[vz6.0]

I'm losing track, you're telling us that the fact they are Jewish has nothing to do with them being an 'evil elitist empire' of bankers and media proprietors?

Did the evil Jews also organise the holocaust of the expendable Jews for their owns ends also?

Hang on, that didnt happen either I'll bet :)

Ask David Irving, he knows the "truth" too.

[Excellent]

hypocrisy is using an unrelated incident to correlate to your opinions.

You know as well as i do the environmental upbringing of a child has a vast effect on the thought processes and ingrained attitudes of an adult person.

Conveniently omitting Mr Gibsons father's "occupation" and public record attitudes regarding this very subject was poor form on your part, and id hate to see the less well read amongst us carry your prejudices due to ignorance of the "facts" you present.

Never once have i claimed that the elected figurehead of a government runs their country, it never has since roman times and i dont expect it to change.

There are too, a vast number of influential people that belong to a particular race, and i have no doubt that the mainstream media is manipulated to suit various agendas not limited to one particular race of people, on that we can agree.

I do however, take great offence to your views on 9/11, and so do many other people for their own reasons.

Now just to prove im capable of scary thought just as much as you, i believe the ETS/CC debacle is nothing more than another attempt at fulfilling the "new world order" which was espoused by many organisations, not the least of which being the freemasons (google some present/past members of this group, but i suspect you already know this)

All this money changing hands will need to be administered, it will be far easier to do with one global currency, and you can elect whoever you like but it wont make a difference to what your country is told to do.

I like you Ex, youve brightened up an otherwise miserable week:xmas:

I didn’t know that Mel’s father was a ‘Jew hater’, I only knew he was a church minister. Isn’t that hearsay on your part (such a strong statement, yet no evidence to back up your assertion, I notice – Did he publicly come out and declare his position?).

I’m aware of the definition of the term hypocracy. You fit that description perfectly.

Reminder, if you take offence so much to some basic ‘facts’ discussed here, you are free to leave. :xmas:

I’m conscious of the fact that you seem to want to thwart discussion about 9/11 ONLY when there is an counter view expressed. Isn’t that way the media handles stories these days, to publish only one side and ignore some apparent truths because it doesn’t suit the main objective? It’s disturbing that you should put your case across in a legal context to remind some of us here of there being no such thing as free speech. So sad. It seems you have an agenda that you can't or won’t divulge? What is your problem exactly?

So many words, yet so little substance - your comments have nothing at all to do with events of 9/11 or this topic. How weird, hey? :jester:

[vz6.0]

I didn’t know that Mel’s father was a ‘Jew hater’, I only knew he was a church minister. Isn’t that hearsay on your part (such a strong statement, yet no evidence to back up your assertion, I notice – Did he publicly come out and declare his position?).

Mr Gibson Sr and his various OPINIONS on things are a matter of public record, or am i supposed to dig up shady links to support my "view"

(could have been a digital rendition of Gibson Sr, if "they" can digitise a plane, a man cant be that hard, but youre the "expert" on that, not i)


Reminder, if you take offence so much to some basic ‘facts’ discussed here, you are free to leave. :xmas:

Ill leave, when some FACTS are presented, since youve offered NONE, i think ill stick around.


I’m conscious of the fact that you seem to want to thwart discussion about 9/11 ONLY when there is an counter view expressed.

So its not FACTS now, its OPINION on 9/11 I have a problem with?

Ok, ill trust FACTS and the TRUTH, and you can provide an alternative viewpoint.



Isn’t that way the media handles stories these days, to publish only one side and ignore some apparent truths because it doesn’t suit the main objective?

I wouldnt know, because i take my heed from people with actual background in the things im interested in, with science, physics, and engineering to back their theories, and they dont "hide" on the internet where its the only place every man is an expert, and the attraction of like minded followers is easily had.



What is your problem exactly?

People who know next to nothing about a subject, other than by the use of fringe media to espouse an OPINION that is silly, insulting, and outright absurd in a thread not concerning it anyway, and hijacking it to suit their own viewpoint without actually being able to "prove" anything that they expect me to "believe"

Funny how ones mans media is anothers conspiracy against the truth dont you think?


So many words, yet so little substance - your comments have nothing at all to do with events of 9/11 or this topic. How weird, hey?

Strange? I didnt think this thread had anything to do with 9/11, rather the accepted instigator behind it (which wasnt even mentioned in the OP), to which i offered a plausible explanation some pages back.

You probably missed it (dismissed it?) because for all you know im part of the "conspiracy" you speak of...

[Excellent]

Oh there are facts here alright, even if you choose to ingore them.

It's ironic how somebody who said won't revisit this topic is now keen to dispell any counterviews.

Just so that this thread doesn't disintegrate and the essence of the material remains, I have the right not to respond to your blatant diversion tactic.

How ironic that you should tell me to Google a topic in regards to the Freemasons that you see fit to object to when there is a circle around some of the Google searches that show real 9/11 recordings of people describing explosions at the time. Not to mention some of the more dubious images of planes ploughing into buildings. Are we meant to believe all that the media protrays? I guess that is too much for you to explain. It's far easier for you to question my sanlity than it is for you to answer some legitimate questions.

If that is the best you can do, I hope that those reading this thread can see straight through your amateur bully-boy ways.

Don't bother engaging me. I won't succumb to your foil.

[team illucid]

Did the evil Jews also organise the holocaust of the expendable Jews for their owns ends also?

Hang on, that didnt happen either I'll bet :)

It happened, but what is the real figure?

Guaranteed it is not the 6 Million Figure dreamed up in Nuremberg. The Auschwitz plaque itself has changed from 3 Million to 1.1. Million, yet that missing 2 Million are still being paid for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

Don't confuse Holocaust Denial with Holocaust Revision.

If I was building a supposed "death camp" I wouldn't waste time on shelter, blankets, clothing, toilet infrastructure etc, i would do this http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm

You need to take the blinkers off.

[vz6.0]

Ex,

How ironic that someone who claims the mainstream media is there for the control of the masses should start so many threads containing news.com links :rofl:

You win excellent, and this thread is many kinds of awesome, so rather than waste any more of the forums time, ill go find something more constructive to do, like beat my head against a wall, or look suspiciously for Fox Network satellites that are trying to read my thoughts, or stand on a street corner with a placard saying "repent, the end is nigh" or search for credible websites about area 51, or pyramids being built by aliens and other assorted oddities.

After all, its on the internet, therefore its the truth.

:goodjob:

[Gee]

You need to take the blinkers off.

No blinkers on the extent of my reading and experiences regarding this subject, quite the contrary. I've sort out all sides of the argument including reading Irving and those of his ilk (and sought out their sources) and become involved with people who gravitate toward, for the lack of a better term, neo-nazism.

On the specific point, you appear to lack an appreciation of the intended overall and changing utility of concentration and/or death camps - as documented by the Germans themselves, if we are all able to accept the veracity of such documentation as not being Allied fabrication.

Perhaps you can state a 'revised' number and, most interesting I'm sure, provide a justification for their deaths?

[team illucid]

the revised number is in the wiki with citations - I need not reinvent the wheel.

Irving is a Holocaust Denier, not a revisionist, look up denial/revision in the dictionary if you need a defintion as to why they are different.

Justification is for the individual, so you would need to ask Heinrich Himmler that question.

[Excellent]

No blinkers on the extent of my reading and experiences regarding this subject, quite the contrary. I've sort out all sides of the argument including reading Irving and those of his ilk (and sought out their sources) and become involved with people who gravitate toward, for the lack of a better term, neo-nazism.

On the specific point, you appear to lack an appreciation of the intended overall and changing utility of concentration and/or death camps - as documented by the Germans themselves, if we are all able to accept the veracity of such documentation as not being Allied fabrication.

Perhaps you can state a 'revised' number and, most interesting I'm sure, provide a justification for their deaths?
That topic is totally irrelevant. You and I know very little about it and neither does Irving. Please, let's leave that topic alone,.

What we do know about 9/11 we can, at least, provide a counterview with real evidence to back it up.

We still haven't questioned Larry Silverstein's motives for pulling down Building 7. He acknowledged he did it. The fire brigade weren't aware of their 'assignment' to pull it down like he claims. How did they get explosives into that building without anybody knowing? :confused:

Probably the same way the explosives found their way into the WTC towers. :1peek:

[Gee]

TI - I don't find too much comfort in retreat to individual responsibility over this subject, but like you I'm a little beyond wheel re-invention myself :)


That topic is totally irrelevant. You and I know very little about it and neither does Irving. Please, let's leave that topic alone,.

I'll admit that Irving actually knows a great deal about it, I reckon I know quite a bit about it, but I'd wager you've got yourself pegged accurately.

If you can't see the relevance to the statements made by you regarding 'certain evil jewish forces' then, well, you should develop a whole new school of logic. Can't wait to see the website!

I'm out of here - enjoy.

[Carby]

GEE, Excellent and Tean Illucid - I now understand how countries get Invaded and taken over - there are dim wits like you guys about who will gladly support the views of terrorists and take up any conspiracy theory with relish.

You guys are not portaying an alternative view you are basically treasonists. If you were in Germany circa 1940 you would be in gaol awaiting for a bullet or piano wire - ahh... one of the weakness of the democratic system ......................:flipoff:

[Excellent]

TI - I don't find too much comfort in retreat to individual responsibility over this subject, but like you I'm a little beyond wheel re-invention myself :)



I'll admit that Irving actually knows a great deal about it, I reckon I know quite a bit about it, but I'd wager you've got yourself pegged accurately.

If you can't see the relevance to the statements made by you regarding 'certain evil jewish forces' then, well, you should develop a whole new school of logic. Can't wait to see the website!

I'm out of here - enjoy.

I think you're being quite sinister in the way you portray me.

I never made the comments you decide to attribute to me in quotes.

That is twisting the context to suit your purpose, which is like a low blow in boxing, isn't it?

It's amazing how some people get all hot and bothered when the shoe is on the other foot. There's barely a whisper from that group when the other side is being condemned. In fact, it's almost encouraged, which is totally unacceptable.

If two children are continually fighting, do you only punish the same one or do you speak to both and explain to them why it is wrong to fight? If the answer is the latter, why are we continually focusing on the same child and condemning his actions when it is the same two who are fighting?

Whatever, there's not much chance for peace in this world, is there? So long as there is greed on a massive scale, I think not!

[team illucid]

GEE, Excellent and Tean Illucid - I now understand how countries get Invaded and taken over - there are dim wits like you guys about who will gladly support the views of terrorists and take up any conspiracy theory with relish.

I don't see any pro-Terrorist statements in any of our posts.

There is a difference between "taking up with relish" pro-conspiracy and being "open minded" to maybe question that the world is not as we are taught.

If you have gone through life and everything you were taught is how you have experienced it so far, then good for you. I have actually found there are more than singular points of view on almost every topic, and some things I was taught as a child, are actually vastly different than what I have experienced.

[Excellent]

GEE, Excellent and Tean Illucid - I now understand how countries get Invaded and taken over - there are dim wits like you guys about who will gladly support the views of terrorists and take up any conspiracy theory with relish.

You guys are not portaying an alternative view you are basically treasonists. If you were in Germany circa 1940 you would be in gaol awaiting for a bullet or piano wire - ahh... one of the weakness of the democratic system ......................:flipoff:

That's exactly the point we make. Was it treason (on the part of Bush administration etc...) in the way 9/11 was conceived? There is damning evidence there to suggest they should be impeached (weapons of mass destruction that were never found.... deary me, let's invade a country because we feel like it).

Or are you basically saying we should just shut up, stop using our brains and be loyal sheep? If that is how you genuinely behave in society, I feel sorry for you, as you can be more open minded and true to yourself than that!

No, I wasn't around circa 1940 and I don't know what exactly you are referring to but what I do know is your point is totally from left field and uncalled for. Personal attacks are not needed, thank you.

[Carby]

I don't see any pro-Terrorist statements in any of our posts.

There is a difference between "taking up with relish" pro-conspiracy and being "open minded" to maybe question that the world is not as we are taught.

If you have gone through life and everything you were taught is how you have experienced it so far, then good for you. I have actually found there are more than singular points of view on almost every topic, and some things I was taught as a child, are actually vastly different than what I have experienced.

You refer earlier to the Holocaust numbers - Does it really matter if it is 6M or 2.0M? - does not the systematic annihilation of a race disturb you? Or are you saying all those images of the Holocaust victims, the pictures, and film taken by official US military media soldiers who were so shocked that they had to be restrained from not killing their prisoners are made up? My neighbour when I was a child was a (Polish) Auschwitz survivor complete with tattoo numbered on her left forearm. Only once when I was a young teen did she tell her story to me and my parents, I thought then how can people be so cruel to each other.

I only have to read a thread like this to be reminded - ignorance, blind stupidity and people seeking to be superior are indeed the cruelist of all.

[team illucid]

You refer earlier to the Holocaust numbers - Does it really matter if it is 6M or 2.0M? - .

The numbers matter, because Germany still pays compensation on the numbers - so there is vested financial interest by Israel that the inflated numbers are kept.

A friend of my father that came out from Germany after the war was an SS soldier, posted at Buchenwald until the end of the war. He married a Jewish Auschwitz survivor in Hobart in 1953 (she had been a prisoner in Auschwitz from Day 1 and somehow survived - so did her 2 sisters, and 3 brothers).

The fact that it is a crime in some countries to even research the Holocaust, adds further credence to the notion that something is not quite right.

The truth fears not investigation.

I am not asking you to believe blindly - if you want to know, look around, make up your own mind. If you don't want to know then don't bother.

[Ellistwo]

I've just been reading what Leslie Robertson had to say. He was the chief structural engineer on the project.

"We had designed the project for the impact of the largest airplane of its time, the Boeing 707. The 767 that actually hit the WTC was quite another matter again. First of all it was a bit heavier than the 707, not very much heavier, but a bit heavier. But mostly it was flying a lot faster. And the energy that it put into the building is proportional to its square of the velocity, as you double the velocity, four times the energy. Triple the velocity, eight times the energy and so forth.

And then of course with the 707 to the best of my knowledge the fuel load was not considered in the design, and indeed I don't know how it could have been considered. But, and with the 767 the fuel load was enormous compared to that of the 707, it was a fully fuelled airplane compared to the 707 which was a landing aircraft. Just absolutely no comparison between the two"

I guess there goes the conspiracy that the buildings were designed for multiple plane hits.

Of course it isn't temperature that counts so much in weakening steel, but the energy. It only has to get to around 420 degC to start weakening and at 650 deg C it has lost half it's strength. If there is a temperature variance across the floor the higher temperature columns will distort and buckle from residual stress.

When the columns gave up, 50, 000 ton of top building landed on a floor capable of holding 1,300 ton, which gave way and put 51,300 ton on the next floor and so on. The roof hit the dirt 2 seconds slower than if it had free falled.

The external walls and columns were stiffeners, not the load bearers; that was part of the design, so a plane could hit it and not destroy the gravity load columns: sought of a sacrificial curtain wall, but also acting to keep the building stiff in high winds.

[Excellent]

LESLIE ROBERTSON's comments (part 1 and 2)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdcNEa6PTQ&feature=related
YouTube- LESLIE ROBERTSON AND STEVEN JONES DEBATE PT2

It should be noted that Leslie did state that the buildings' construction was changed from the original design / test phase.

Also listen to Leslie making comments about the design phase where his tests demonstrated that the floors would withstand a 2 hour fire... he acknowledges that they were designed and tested that way. However, Leslie is non-committal when it comes to acknowledging that the buildings should fall so quickly! ;)

Another perspective: A building so tall cannot fall so quickly...
YouTube- The Twin Towers did not collapse on their own

[Carby]

Just want to retract GEE's name from my first post - he's actually one of the goods guys - apologies GEE!

[BossV8]

Another perspective: A building so tall cannot fall so quickly...
YouTube- The Twin Towers did not collapse on their own (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkoMOeBH-zM&feature=related)

I don't subscribe to there not being planes that flew into the buildings, Luke Darcy from the Western Bulldogs was on the radio yesterday morning saying him and his team mates saw the 2nd plane hit the trade centre from 2 blocks away, followed by dozens of jumpers from above the intense heat of the fire.

But that above video does raise some valid points. If that building cannot fall in 6 seconds purely from plane damage near the top floor, there is the likelihood of something else helping it down. His example of the billard ball dropping from the top is interesting. I can't say I believe the whole 911 conspiracy but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about just how much was known. The terrorists must really of done their homework to get such a "perfect" result

[seldo]

I must admit that I haven't read this whole thread....but why would I? Some of you blokes scare me....To think that you are out there stealing our oxygen, probably breeding even....Sheesh!

[Cool Daddy]

Seldo what are you scared of?,alternative views on a matter such as 9-11 dont mean that we condone terrorism,I dont agree with the conspiracy theory on this matter because I cant stomach it and refuse to accept that 9-11 was anything but a terrorist attack.

Having said that this is an open forum and this thread is a good means to discuss a well documented event such as 9-11/bin Laden.

[Ellistwo]

LESLIE ROBERTSON's comments (part 1 and 2)...

[It should be noted that Leslie did state that the buildings' construction was changed from the original design / test phase.

Also listen to Leslie making comments about the design phase where his tests demonstrated that the floors would withstand a 2 hour fire... he acknowledges that they were designed and tested that way. However, Leslie is non-committal when it comes to acknowledging that the buildings should fall so quickly! ;)

Another perspective: A building so tall cannot fall so quickly...


Look the facts are the building fell in ~10 seconds. You don't have to be a professor in physics too know the domino effect of too much weight for the load carrying capacity of a suspended floor. The whole notion of a floor being capable of sustaining it's own weight plus 1300 tons, then adding ten or more storeys plus the moments of inertia is preposterous. By the time it hit level 1 it would have a force equal to the the mass of the entire building and acceleration due to gravity acting on it.

The use of youtube stooges to explain away simple physics is going from sublime to the proverbial ridiculous. I can just imagine the legitimate engineers shaking their heads in utter disbelief at the stupidty and not even bothering to put forward opposing arguments because of the sheer folly in explaining the obvious to ningcompoops.

500,000 tons travelling at 200kph as it all hit the ground. You have any idea how much of an explosion is needed to accelerate that sought of mass faster than gravity? That's half a million tons for goodness sake.

[seldo]

Seldo what are you scared of?,alternative views on a matter such as 9-11 dont mean that we condone terrorism,I dont agree with the conspiracy theory on this matter because I cant stomach it and refuse to accept that 9-11 was anything but a terrorist attack.

Having said that this is an open forum and this thread is a good means to discuss a well documented event such as 9-11/bin Laden.
Well...I wasn't necessarily talking to you, but, as they say, "if the cap fits, wear it".
I'm not scared of these crack-pot views at all....but I do find it offensive that the people who espouse them insult my intelligence by expecting me to actually believe this totally ridiculous crap.
Having achieved a fairly exciting and very full lifetime so far, I'm afraid that as I get older, my tolerance of idiots gets exponentially lower...

[Cool Daddy]

Seldo
Your always going to have people who cant accept 9-11 and what happened,could you imagine a world where we all agreed on everything? ( too boring).

[BEARWOOD]

Well...I wasn't necessarily talking to you, but, as they say, "if the cap fits, wear it".
I'm not scared of these crack-pot views at all....but I do find it offensive that the people who espouse them insult my intelligence by expecting me to actually believe this totally ridiculous crap.
Having achieved a fairly exciting and very full lifetime so far, I'm afraid that as I get older, my tolerance of idiots gets exponentially lower...

Why do you call them "crack pot views"? Have you researched any of it or do you just believe what they put on the evening news and think that must be it? I don't believe everything that Excellent is leaning towards but there are alot of unanswered questions and some valid points from some of his links. You shouldn't use your age to think that what you believe is always right and others must be "idiots". Some of the "conspiracy therioes" are way out there but there is always more to it than some would like you to think. Theres some interesting reading in here so try not to make it personal and turn it to shit.

[Carby]

Man they're coming out of the woodwork now........

Why don't guys fill us in on how they didn't actually walk on the Moon while your at it, why Pearl Harbour was not a secret attack and ...........hang on I've just spotted a Yowie outside my office window....gotta grab the camera ...man wait till you read about this

[Ellistwo]

They didn't walk on the moon. The moon does not exist. It is a mirage caused by the van halen belt; that and mass hysteria. There have not and never will be spacecraft.

[Excellent]

seldo

Thanks for your overwhelming compliments directed at me (obviously). :xmas:

What does it say about someone when they come along without studying the material here in detail and start getting personal?

There is nothing insulting in this thread apart from the personal advice issued by yourself and a notable few others at members like me. What exactly do you have to 'fear'? Do you fear some basic truths coming out, some basic facts as explained by highly qualified individuals, do you not want to open yourself up to the other side because you harbour a personal prejudice that you don't necessarily want disclosed?

FACT: Information presented here is from highly qualified people - scientists, engineers, and firemen. It's not made up and it's certainly not based on opinions by crackpots.

Given I've provided some provocative material that is explained by persons probably higher qualified than yourself and yours truly, it's ironic that you should question our combined sanity given you have failed to properly read the thread and understand some of the concerns raised. Therefore, as I explained to another member here, I don't need to play the diversion tactic.

OK, let's just say I am a crackpot. This crackpot isn't expecting you to believe anything. I can't make your brain do what it doesn't want to do. To say my objective is to insult your intelligence is a bit of a misnomer. There are far more intelligent individuals out there who have raised the doubts, and backed it up with facts and commonsense. Some traits which you have failed to exercise here. It's precisely the reason why I believe their qualified material. Nobody is forcing you to read the thread so I don't understand why your tolerance levels should be exceeded.

BossV8, in regards to the footballers, are you sure they said they saw the planes flying into the buildings or did they say they were there when it happened? I ask you that question because the version I heard was that Nathan Brown was also there but he saw the towers come down but no planes? It's usually the case that when you hear a story from another person it's hearsay unless they provide solid proof. Anyway what's the emoticon here again... this thread is useless without pics. Unfortunately, the pics here that show the planes flying into buildings are enough to convince people that 9/11 was as reported.

Others, like me, tend to question the evidence released. My only 'crime' in this thread is to use my brains and counter common beliefs with facts and expert opinions. Members here are intelligent enough to make up their minds one way or the other. But imagine if I didn't chime in? This thread would continue down the common theme of "Muslims are terrorists and should be killed" which is entirely acceptable and obviously causes offence to nobody... even if some of the claims could actually be total coverups and downright lies.

Bin Laden has never actually claimed responsibility for the attacks. It's unusual for Muslim terrorists to not claim responsibility for attacks they have been guilty of conspiring - it's almost a badge of honour for them. But I guess it doesn't matter because he's definitely guilty of trial by media. And we know that there is only one version from the media that counts.

[seldo]

:rofl: :rofl: I'm really gob-smacked....I think you genuinely believe this dollop that you are espousing...And the scary thing is that you are probably of breeding age! Perish the thought.
Meanwhile, you are stealing our oxygen.

[mac06]

There's no doubt that planes crashed into the WTC, and various camera angles of the same thing show that beyond doubt, some of those shot by members of the public. To try and say that event never happened puts your credibility in doubt for anything else said. I've no doubt we haven't heard all the facts, and that there are many unanswered questions, but there is no way such a huge event in a city inhabited by millions of people could be classified as "doctored video tapes". Any such attempt would have been quickly shot down in flames by eyewitnesses.

To say the fire fighters said they heard explosions means there had to have been explosive devices planted doesn't cut it with me. They were merely giving an account of what they thought at the time. The collapsing floors would have sounded like explosions, and expelled air from those floors would have blown out the windows making it seem like explosive devices were going off. I bet if you asked the same fire fighters today what they felt now in retrospect they would have a different story. Bear in mind the attempt to blow up the WTC a number of years before would have also been in their minds and they may have thought a similar thing was happening again.

Just for interest I had a look at the following hour plus long video. He claims that these planes were military planes not commercial airliners. Sure there are reasonable questions raised but many could equally be debunked. Given the magnitude of the event and the number of people who would have to have been involved if it were in fact a conspiracy, the truth would have come out by now don't you think? Someone would have spilled the beans.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078#

[BEARWOOD]

Man they're coming out of the woodwork now........

Why don't guys fill us in on how they didn't actually walk on the Moon while your at it, why Pearl Harbour was not a secret attack and ...........hang on I've just spotted a Yowie outside my office window....gotta grab the camera ...man wait till you read about this

If your reffering to me, you've got it all wrong! I believe there was planes involved but i just think there is more to it than that. I'm definately not at the level of conspiracy thinking of sum here but i do listen to both sides with an open mind and not judge people on how they think. Another point is that just because you don't think one thing adds up doesn't all of a sudden make you believe every conspiracy theory or alien abduction or big foot sighting is true.

[retch]

Man they're coming out of the woodwork now........

Why don't guys fill us in on how they didn't actually walk on the Moon while your at it, why Pearl Harbour was not a secret attack and ...........hang on I've just spotted a Yowie outside my office window....gotta grab the camera ...man wait till you read about this

flick that yowie pic to me carb... iamaloon at gmail.com...ta mate..:1peek:.

[Excellent]

There's no doubt that planes crashed into the WTC, and various camera angles of the same thing show that beyond doubt, some of those shot by members of the public. To try and say that event never happened puts your credibility in doubt for anything else said. I've no doubt we haven't heard all the facts, and that there are many unanswered questions, but there is no way such a huge event in a city inhabited by millions of people could be classified as "doctored video tapes". Any such attempt would have been quickly shot down in flames by eyewitnesses.

To say the fire fighters said they heard explosions means there had to have been explosive devices planted doesn't cut it with me. They were merely giving an account of what they thought at the time. The collapsing floors would have sounded like explosions, and expelled air from those floors would have blown out the windows making it seem like explosive devices were going off. I bet if you asked the same fire fighters today what they felt now in retrospect they would have a different story. Bear in mind the attempt to blow up the WTC a number of years before would have also been in their minds and they may have thought a similar thing was happening again.

Just for interest I had a look at the following hour plus long video. He claims that these planes were military planes not commercial airliners. Sure there are reasonable questions raised but many could equally be debunked. Given the magnitude of the event and the number of people who would have to have been involved if it were in fact a conspiracy, the truth would have come out by now don't you think? Someone would have spilled the beans.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078#

I think your attention is mis-directed. I saw that documentary and it's a total crock of sheit and makes all conspiracies look discountable. A military aircract crashed into the towers? Puhlease! Don't bundle that piece of nonsense with the genuinely questionably evidence here, as it's a complete waste of film.

What that video does show is that people are willing to either deliberately or seemingly lie. How can you believe "eye-witness" accounts when the eye-witnesses themselves don't know what they saw, as that film clearly shows? If a man on the street shouted a plane hit the building, there would be lots of copy-cats shouting the same thing even if they didn't see the incident.

I've yet to see genuine videos of planes that hit the tower as the ones in video you provided are simply re-runs of the videos we've already shown. I've even gone to the trouble of providing a close-up video.

Anyway, it's amazing just to see how many persons are refusing to believe that 9/11 could have been a hoax despite the evidence presented to them. What could one make of the reaction? Are people willing to turn a blind eye to corruption? Are people in disbelief that a government could possibly do that to its own people? Are people welched on the notion that it's virtually impossible to pull the wool over reported eye-witness accounts who claim they saw a plane hit the tower? Are people willing to believe that the images presented are real enough? Or do people just plain refuse to buy into anything but the 'official' line? All of the above?

Personally, I think the events of 9/11 are a genuine barometer of how corrupted our society has become. It's a display of ruthless power and a real indication of who the real rulers of our crazy world are. It's a sad, sad reflection of how little worth some people value innocent human life. I hope the real perpetrators are brought to justice but I somehow doubt we will see this happen. It's like the JFK assassination after he signed the paperwork to release power from the Federal Reserve in replacing the USD with silver certificates. JFK's death scared the politicians so much the landmark signing was reversed and thus the US Federal Reserve system was retained... and so the status quo today.

Life goes on... albeit with little chance of peace in sight. I'm done!

[mac06]

If the government really was involved in a conspiracy don't you think they'd pick somewhere less conspicuous, where there would be less chance of eyewitnesses debunking the "official line"? Remember too that although the first plane crash could have easily been missed by eyewitnesses, the second would not as peoples attention was directed at what was happening right in front of their eyes. Those planes were real, no doubt about it. As I said before, there are plenty of unanswered questions, but that's not one of them.

[Funky_Munky]

What does it say about someone when they come along without studying the material here in detail and start getting personal?

Ad hominem. Case in point below.


:rofl: :rofl: I'm really gob-smacked....I think you genuinely believe this dollop that you are espousing...And the scary thing is that you are probably of breeding age! Perish the thought.
Meanwhile, you are stealing our oxygen.

[SSThunderute]

Carby, yowies are old hat.... Excellent has a breeding pair in his backyard. I think they messed with his head also.....

[blarks]

Bin laden has been spotted around melbourne suburbs










http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/840/holdenbinladen.jpg

[Spider]

^ :rofl: hahaha,and he's waving too :goodjob:

[BossV8]

His rims is about to fall off too...gutter scrape perhaps?