HSV Boss reckons FPV not HSV Competitor!!

[troytroy]

In the latest WHEELS magazine HSV's Phil Harding reckons that FPV is not a direct competitor to HSV :confused::confused:

He states that only two percent cross the fence from Ford to Holden etc

Therefore he thinks that comparos between each product is irrelevant.

I'm sure every owner on here whether it be HSV/Holden or Ford/FPV want to know how their car stacks up against the competition.

If XR8's were quicker and FPV GT's offered more power and were quicker than a GTS - would any of you guys switch teams? I know I would easily get into a new FG F6.....:hide:

[Grant]

In the latest WHEELS magazine HSV's Phil Harding reckons that FPV is not a direct competitor to HSV :confused::confused:

He states that only two percent cross the fence from Ford to Holden etc

Therefore he thinks that comparos between each product is irrelevant.

I'm sure every owner on here whether it be HSV/Holden or Ford/FPV want to know how their car stacks up against the competition.

If XR8's were quicker and FPV GT's offered more power and were quicker than a GTS - would any of you guys switch teams? I know I would easily get into a new FG F6.....:hide:

Only 2% of customers come from FPV. Therefore, FPV is not a competitor. HSV is not competing with FPV for the same customers. Where's the problem?

Whether or not the cars are competitive with respect each other is a separate issue. In terms of HSV as a business, FPV is not a competitor.

[SHANESVZSS]

i would never buy a xr8 or gt/p no matter how much faster they were than HSV i just dont like them , the F6 however i would buy they are the best thing to come out of FPV , i love reading/comparing HSV to FPV , holden to ford and regardless of what hsv says , its always going to be HSV vs FPV and HOLDEN vs FORD , its the law :)

[Smitty]

In the latest WHEELS magazine HSV's Phil Harding reckons that FPV is not a direct competitor to HSV :confused::confused:

He states that only two percent cross the fence from Ford to Holden etc

Therefore he thinks that comparos between each product is irrelevant.



hmmmmm.....
bit like telling Holdens Commercial fleet sales manager that his counterpart at Ford (or Toyota for that matter) is irrelevant and he has no competition from them... :confused:

[csv rulz]

I can see what he means, most people who buy FPV or HSV would not buy the other brand no matter how much better the other car may or may not be.

The cars are very similar but HSV get most of there customers who drive euro cars so there focus is on targeting them and not targeting FPV customers. Its just business.

It was good to see the Senator come out on top of the F6E though. and if they had of compared them to a similar priced merc (not a $200,000+ merc) they would have blown it away.

[pah]

I changed camps for the first time this year. I bought an FG XR6T.

Can FPV can claim they've never charged as much as $150k for one of their Falcon based products? How much was the W427? Some might regard the W427 ticket as a lot of money for a Commodore based car.

Loyalty worries me. If Ford and Holden are sure we will NEVER jump ship due to dis-satisfaction or the other guy having a better mouse trap, DO THEY HAVE TO TRY??



PAH

[Toddler78]

I changed camps for the first time this year. I bought an FG XR6T.

I guess FPV can claim they've NEVER charged as much as $150k for one of their Falcon based products. How much was the W427?

Loyalty worries me. If Ford and Holden are sure we will NEVER jump ship due to dis-satisfaction or the other guy having a better mouse trap, DO THEY HAVE TO TRY??



PAH


:goodjob: PAH,
you and a fair few others on this forum have swapped over to the F6, and many others that wish they could have a F6. I think HSV are nieve to think that they have their target customers all sewed up.

[glavas]

holden/hsv no that alot of people are loyal to the brand. my mum for example dosent no anything abut cars but she always buys a new commy? why beacause thats what she has always known. my nanna said to me the other day she wants to buy a new kingswood and sell her old one haha.



me i will always buy commodores. its more then just a car its a legacy it is tradition. every family holiday was in a commy. we always had them and i always will. if holden commodore was a church id be a priest!

[planetdavo]

Who really cares?
The media loves choosing a "winner" between the two, because Joe Public loves seeing which one wins a comparo for bragging rights, but if there is virtually no cross-shopping between brands, it is correct what he says.
Both brands are really just an extension of the old school Ford vs Holden battle.

[smokey777]

^^ this is why we are considered bogans lol

[troytroy]

It might be just me but I don't have enough loyalty to a brand to blindly buy the next model when the comptetition (or alternatives) are better.

It scares me as well that HSV reckon they don't have to compete with FPV. Surely over the years all the increase in power, quality, handling and appointment levels etc between HSV and FPV are related in some way. Whether they admit to it or not but those customers coming from European cars may not be as one eyed as some of us on this forum and are likely to go to either a Holden/HSV or Ford/FPV (a good value Australian performance sedan), and it will most likley be the better one - so technically they are competing indirectly anyway. And they are certainly competing for the same demographic.

I would have thought that Ford's AU model was a perfect example of what happens when you produce ugly crap - you lose customers, and V8 lovers. When you compare VT-VX V8 sales to Ford AU V8 sales - it becomes obvious what happends to the market share when product disparity occurs.

[troytroy]

my nanna said to me the other day she wants to buy a new kingswood and sell her old one haha.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:


me i will always buy commodores. its more then just a car its a legacy it is tradition. every family holiday was in a commy. we always had them and i always will. if holden commodore was a church id be a priest!

:rofl::rofl::goodjob:

[Smitty]

....... In terms of HSV as a business, FPV is not a competitor.
so who really is???

based on my experiences, it definitely is NOT the Europeans

The owners of BMWs (eg 5 series) Mercedes (C or E class)
or Audi that I know, would never contemplate a HSV
...any model HSV and why?
because it has no prestige!

These guys do not have an issue with money
(most could afford to buy a couple of Senators)
but a HSV is based on a Commodore..and that is the problem.
A tarted up Commodore sedan is not seen
to be anywhere in the sight of these guys...they talk
'will I have the M3 soft-top or hot Audi or maybe one of the AMGs?'
when they look at their next new car

HSV are so off the planet if they think they can get
owners of Euro marques interested

[MaDDoG]

I just like cars. I am on my 3rd HSV (VX Clubby, VY2 Senator, VE GTS) and to be honest I was looking at FPV but the wife did not like them. Its not about outright speed or acceleartion to, but the whole package and from that standpoint some things Ford are better and some things Holden are better. I do like the FG range. They are a nicer more upmarket finish inside but I hate that heavy bulging front end and bonnet. The F6 is fast and the 6 speed auto is a gem, but at thend of the day I want a V8.....loooooove that sound.

Of course they are competitors, and we are bettr off for it!!!!!

[planetdavo]

It might be just me but I don't have enough loyalty to a brand to blindly buy the next model when the comptetition (or alternatives) are better.

It scares me as well that HSV reckon they don't have to compete with FPV. Surely over the years all the increase in power, quality, handling and appointment levels etc between HSV and FPV are related in some way. Whether they admit to it or not but those customers coming from European cars may not be as one eyed as some of us on this forum and are likely to go to either a Holden/HSV or Ford/FPV (a good value Australian performance sedan), and it will most likley be the better one - so technically they are competing indirectly anyway. And they are certainly competing for the same demographic.

I would have thought that Ford's AU model was a perfect example of what happens when you produce ugly crap - you lose customers, and V8 lovers. When you compare VT-VX V8 sales to Ford AU V8 sales - it becomes obvious what happends to the market share when product disparity occurs.

Every car competes "indirectly". They are all cars!
The new car industry is purely about sales. Who's getting the most they can, and who's taking them off whom. If HSV sales are not being lost to FPV, why would they actually be a direct competitor? :confused:
Your AU example is really not relevent to your question posed. Tickford (back then) had to base their car off an unpopular Ford model. The same stigma carried over.
Ford/Tickford lost sales to HSV during that period, not so much the other way around. HSV of course need to be "aware" of them, as they would with many other companies.

[MaDDoG]

Oh and someone has been reading my mind....just after I win Tatts his is what I'm doing.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/3650/ls9-powered-hsv-gts-r-speculation/

Guess the FPV GTHO supercharged car will be on the drawing boards as we speak.

[troytroy]

Every car competes "indirectly". They are all cars!

Well yes, but large four door sporty family sedans is a pretty strong and unique market to Australia

The new car industry is purely about sales. Who's getting the most they can, and who's taking them off whom. If HSV sales are not being lost to FPV, why would they actually be a direct competitor? :confused:

Your AU example is really not relevent to your question posed. Tickford (back then) had to base their car off an unpopular Ford model. The same stigma carried over.

EXACTLY - that is my point - it was a crap base to work off, the engine was crap, and subsequently and importantly perspective buyers thought so to. Holden sales coincidentally increased during the same period....and importantly for the future, FORD pulled their finger out and made a parts bin special DOHC V8 and a smooth Turbo 6 - sales went up, Holden's market share diminished. The relationship between the two is important.

Many many Australians love their big family sedans, and many of those dads secretly want a weekend car as well.

If Ford's next 5.0 litre V8 is a torqueless revvy POS that is trying to pull a heavier model than what it already is - you can't tell me that it wont be bad thing for Holden and HSV sales. If the next FPV GT struggles to get into the 6's it will effect their V8 market share (probably increase their 6T though)

Conversely if FORD released an FPV GTHO with a 380kw supercharged V8 - it will effect the way people percieve their brand- even if no HSV buyers directly cross over to buy one, but it may cause cross over across other lessor models....and then the whole phenomenom of people buying the cheaper model and tarting it up....and non-car lay persons knowing what a FORD GTHO is......then become a legend, the car to have....prices will soar on the 2nd hand market...it will become a halo model that lifts sales across lessor models

Ford/Tickford lost sales to HSV during that period, not so much the other way around. HSV of course need to be "aware" of them, as they would with many other companies.

............

[mgygto]

It was a silly arrogant comment that was designed to tell Ford they are not in the same league as HSV. It is not relevant as to who switchs from 1 brand to the next and in fact HSV do NOT know how many customers switch - he can only refer to vehicles traded against the new car. I've bought 2 HSV's now and not on either occasion was the dealer aware of what I drove as I did not trade. The fact is they are competitors for the $$$ available in the range they operate, the same as HSV actually compete against Holden ( how many choose to purchase an SS rather than the fully blown HSV). I can see what he was trying to say but treating the competition like that shows a weakness they don't need to have. Having both of them in the market also helps with price and performance ..... the kw game is driven directly from FPV and HSV being in the same market space and both want bragging rights - HSV more than FPV. Personally I would love to see 888 bring out a couple of street performance Holdens to see what that would do! ( they don't intend to).

[planetdavo]

Well, it's either spin, or it's the truth, but a different "truth" to what you understand.
If viewed in your way as "competitors", I see HSV clearly spending far more money developing a car with substantially different styling and additional technology over regular Holden models. FPV simply have never made their models different enough in the last decade to regular cheap Falcons, hence why I feel the two of them are placed where they currently are.

[awesome _vzss]

i would never buy a xr8 or gt/p no matter how much faster they were than HSV i just dont like them , the F6 however i would buy they are the best thing to come out of FPV , i love reading/comparing HSV to FPV , holden to ford and regardless of what hsv says , its always going to be HSV vs FPV and HOLDEN vs FORD , its the law :)

:lmao: couldn't of said it better myself

[planetdavo]

It was a silly arrogant comment that was designed to tell Ford they are not in the same league as HSV. It is not relevant as to who switchs from 1 brand to the next and in fact HSV do NOT know how many customers switch - he can only refer to vehicles traded against the new car. I've bought 2 HSV's now and not on either occasion was the dealer aware of what I drove as I did not trade.

You need to advance your thinking well above dealer level.
Manufacturers can get hold of pretty much any and every statistic available. Every trade in has a record somewhere that can reach the manufacturer. They also "clinic" the market, which can pick up trends not related to trade in's.
Saying this though, the vast majority do trade in.

[planetdavo]

troytroy, the relationship between Holden's decrease in sales and Ford's increase in sales is only comparable in a competitor sense if Ford was taking them off Holden.
Both brands are well down on years ago. Reason is that many buyers want alternative "lifestyle" vehicles now. Usually, the "SUV" is now the main competitor, not team blue or team red to each other.

[Ghosn]

FPV IS a direct competitor to HSV, to say otherwise, you are kidding yourself. It's marketing talk.

[mjrandom]

I agree this is just marketing BS. There are two levels of competition occuring. The first is the type of car vs type of car at a price - four door sports sedan vs four door sports sedan so obviously FPV and HSV are competitors as well as Holden and Ford in the their main stream offerings. The second is purely $ for $. What else can you pick up for $x from any manufacturer. Pretty much all of us work to a budget so the first thing you do is work out what is on offer and what do you want from a car. I had an E1 R8 and wanted something similar in terms of performance and handling. My budget was around $70k on the road so I looked at superseded E1 GTSs, FPV F6s and the new R8s. Then throw in things like Evo X, STi, RS3s etc and work out what is best for me. I didn't consider the V8 FPVs or Fords because they simply aren't up to it and there is no way my wife would drive one with that lump on the bonnet that she couldn't see over!

In the article in the same mag between an AMG, an F6E and a Senator they summed up my impressions of the F6 pretty much though they didn't mention the brakes which aren't up to the HSVs for outright stopping distance.

If my budget was open ended then there would be something parked on the driveway with an AMG badge on it. Or an Aston badge. Or a Porsche badge....

Oh and I traded a Ford turbo on my E1 R8 so does that mean I am part of the 2%?

[Party Pete]

It seems pretty obvious to me. If people are interested in going to an Australian performance car from a non Ford or Holden, then they are prepared to look at completely different options to what they have already and of course they are going to consider both Ford and Holden and therefore they are competitors. Frankly that little outburst from HSV's boss explains a lot about the styling of the new model. They don't know who they are trying to appeal to because they have become arrogant and complacent.

[BlownLS7]

FPV (is) , simply because of HSV's Sucsess, sure many might never swap, however competition breeds sucsuss,

and thats why FPV is doing better than ever, and they can thank HSV, as they are creating more demand for special Vehicles,and NOT a normal car,

to say a guy who buys BMW or Audi will never buy a HSV is complete boolshit, i have a mate with an R8 Audi and a VE GTS,

the more people that enter the market the better for those already in the market as the best always do better,and it offers choice,

but at the end of the day all cars compete with some other car,

cheers and might i wish all LS1ers a safe and merry xmas, drive safe

[VY18s]

i would never buy a xr8 or gt/p no matter how much faster they were than HSV i just dont like them , the F6 however i would buy they are the best thing to come out of FPV , i love reading/comparing HSV to FPV , holden to ford and regardless of what hsv says , its always going to be HSV vs FPV and HOLDEN vs FORD , its the law :)

As much as I bleed red I agree. In saying that I wouldn't say no to a XR8, or GT/P.

When I eventually get into the market of buying a new car I'll look on both sides. Although even if I ended up buying a new Ford I think deep down I would still love Holden.

When it comes to V8SC I'll always support Holden. I would even go as far as wearing my HRT apparel even if I owned a Ford.

[VXSS346]

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Once again HSV are just full of shit. :D

Seems to me HSV are still trying to push their brand image up towards the BMW and Mercedes class. :weirdo:
If that's the case, good luck!! :limpy: They've been trying to do that for years. :lmao:

They are, and always will be on Ford's level.

:bs:

[Jarhead]

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Once again HSV are just full of shit. :D

Seems to me HSV are still trying to push their brand image up towards the BMW and Mercedes class. :weirdo:
If that's the case, good luck!! :limpy: They've been trying to do that for years. :lmao:

They are, and always will be on Ford's level.

:bs:


Agree 100%.

The comment was not to say that people choose FPV or HSV. He was trying to say that HSV is competing against European manufacturers. The marketing spin is just that - spin. It's like maccas saying that Hungry Jacks isn't their competition, instead saying their target demographic is al a carte dining. In the end we all know a Big Mac and a Whopper are at the same level.

[Ghia351]

to say a guy who buys BMW or Audi will never buy a HSV is complete boolshit, i have a mate with an R8 Audi and a VE GTS,
I think the point Smitty was making is would he have traded in his Audi to buy the VE rather then own both. And lets be frank if you're buying a performance Euro, and I mean cars which better or at least match a HSV and not your BMW 318 or C200, your spending much more money and in general wouldn't be shopping at the HSV dealer.

[Marco]

It'd be interesting to see figures on what HSV owners are trading in - I would have assumed nearly all HSV sales would be either (a) people trading in older HSVs or (b) people trading in Holdens.

I can see the MD's point on this one - it takes a lot to get a Holden guy to buy a Ford or vice versa, and there's not that many people who switch sides. Irrational, maybe, but that's just the way it is. So it makes more sense for HSV to target people who are already in the Holden camp, and convince them to either upgrade their existing HSV or spend some extra coin and get a HSV instead of an SS or Calais.

I don't think it makes a great deal of sense to target the Europeans, although it does make a lot of sense to go around saying that you are from a marketing point of view. If you go around telling people that you're targeting buyers of $150k Euro performance cars with your $70k models, it might make them stop and at least think about why your half-priced car might be in the same league (even if it's not).

FWIW, probably the only Euro performance car that is roughly comparable to a HSV in terms of price and performance would be the BMW 135i; I can't think of anything else for about the same money.

[KingClifton]

so who really is???

based on my experiences, it definitely is NOT the Europeans

The owners of BMWs (eg 5 series) Mercedes (C or E class)
or Audi that I know, would never contemplate a HSV
...any model HSV and why?
because it has no prestige!

These guys do not have an issue with money
(most could afford to buy a couple of Senators)
but a HSV is based on a Commodore..and that is the problem.
A tarted up Commodore sedan is not seen
to be anywhere in the sight of these guys...they talk
'will I have the M3 soft-top or hot Audi or maybe one of the AMGs?'
when they look at their next new car

HSV are so off the planet if they think they can get
owners of Euro marques interested

It didn't stop me from trading in my Audi on a Clubsport, nor did it stop me trading in my Clubsport on a BMW.

*Very* few European car owners I know take the snobbish attitude you discuss. Personally I bought an HSV because they were making a world-class product which was great value and I wanted to support an Australian manufacturer. Other European car drivers I know have switched to and from Japanese and local brands, depending on the offerings and values at the time.

HSV had a lot of interest from (and sales to) former European car drivers - you only need to drive through Adelaide's Eastern suburbs to see the high adoption of HSVs by what were previously dyed-in-the-wool Euro owners. But with the boganizing of the E2, they lost me as a customer and most people I talk to hate the look of the E2.

[BanPC]

Maybe the guy was talking about fords not being a competitor because they can never get rid of the front end clunks no matter what model..

[Pickles]

I think Phil's a bit off track. HSV & FPV build the same sort of cars, so of course they're competitors.
Also, I reckon this "comment" with respect to FPV & HSV has backfired to a certain extent......I've seen his "comment" in so many articles.....and of course FPV is also mentioned!!.....so, I reckon he's given FPV a bit of free publicity.
If FPV had a decent V8, that was clearly significantly superior to the LS3, then I'd consider an FPV for sure.....as I believe many others would, and then, FPV would be real competition. Whilst FPV are part of HSV's competition at the moment, it's not very strong, but if & when FPV get a better V8, that could change.....at which time Phil might change his mind on what HSV's competition is.
Cheers, Pickles.

[feistl]

The whole "kw battle" is kinda pointless. As many would know, a simple cam/exhaust package will boost the LSx engines considerably. So if FPV is 10kw more i wouldnt buy one of that fact alone.

Take price into account as well... But chances are if your spending $60-80k on a new car, you can afford an extra $5-10k to increase the power/note

[Pickles]

I'm not talking 10KW.....I'm talking "a better engine"....the LS3 isn't that much in front of the Ford V8 offerings in power (well, stated power anyway), but as far driveability, responsiveness, & all that sort of stuff is concerned, the LS3 creams it.
Cheers, Pickles.

[CarlFST60L]

I think the FPV boss is just cut because he is sick of hearing HSV saying they aren't concerned with FPV as a competitor, HSV are focused on attracting the Euro car buyers.

Its probably a smart move by FPV as their current package doesn't measure up to the E2 HSV package IMUBO (In My Unbiased Opinion), unless you want to get a hard on over a few 10ths of a second, or how cheap you can turn the F6 into a laggy bucket of bolts :stick:

[V-Car]

Frankly that little outburst from HSV's boss explains a lot about the styling of the new model. They don't know who they are trying to appeal to because they have become arrogant and complacent.

Spot on Pete!
Typical HSV (and Holden) white shoe brigade, head up their arse comment.
I know quite a few people who have moved from HSV to FPV, and vice versa.

Maybe the (cheaper) GXP came about to get rid of alot of Pontiac GXP parts, but then again, FPV had introduced their (cheaper) GS a few months ago.
Coincidence? Apparently not according to Harding! ;)

I really hope Ford's new V8's kick butt as they deserve to do alot better then their 'competition'.

[V-Car]

HSV are focused on attracting the Euro car buyers.


I dount IMUBO that's going to happen with the current E2 styling! :spew:

[planetdavo]

I dount IMUBO that's going to happen with the current E2 styling! :spew:

Using this argument, you could also say the way many BMW's have been "styled" in recent years wouldn't attract Euro buyers either...
However, not every Euro buyer wants the classically simple styling that is the Euro stereotype. Has worked well for Audi off their (lower) sales base, but BMW got bangled years ago, and even conservative Mercedes has tried to show a bit more creativity (CLS, rear half of new C class).

[Uwish]

I do not rate HSV as a world leading product.
Compare an M5 against a Senator.
Fit and finish in a hsv is shit.
HSV will never attact M or AMG owners.
Unless they are being hit by the GFM.

[planetdavo]

I do not rate HSV as a world leading product.
Compare an M5 against a Senator.
Fit and finish in a hsv is shit.
HSV will never attact M or AMG owners.
Unless they are being hit by the GFM.

Compare the price and what you get for your money with a HSV compared to an M or an AMG.
Snob factor is what will never allow cross-shopping to most.
"Darling, I will never allow myself to be seen driving an Australian made car. What would the people in Toorak think. I'd have my tennis club gold membership revoked...". :spew:

[Uwish]

Dave, my brother almost, ALMOST purchased one the same time as me. ( He loves his M cars )
But he kept saying the fit and finish is not that good for 80k.
HSV want to compare themselves to M or AMG then people need to stop going on about the cost difference.
BUT a W427 is almost as much as a C63.
Not I know which car I would prefer.

[Ghosn]

Compare the price and what you get for your money with a HSV compared to an M or an AMG.


Riddle me this.

Does the build quality of a W427 exceed that of a GTS?

[Jarhead]

The whole "kw battle" is kinda pointless. As many would know, a simple cam/exhaust package will boost the LSx engines considerably. So if FPV is 10kw more i wouldnt buy one of that fact alone.

Take price into account as well... But chances are if your spending $60-80k on a new car, you can afford an extra $5-10k to increase the power/note



Mate you can't be serious. What % of the population that buys a new HSV would change the cam and exhaust? Very,very few. Less than 1% would be my guess.

So the KW wars are very relevant to the marketability of their cars. "most powerful Aussie made car" has been bandied around for years.

[Grant]

so who really is???

based on my experiences, it definitely is NOT the Europeans

The owners of BMWs (eg 5 series) Mercedes (C or E class)
or Audi that I know, would never contemplate a HSV
...any model HSV and why?
because it has no prestige!

These guys do not have an issue with money
(most could afford to buy a couple of Senators)
but a HSV is based on a Commodore..and that is the problem.
A tarted up Commodore sedan is not seen
to be anywhere in the sight of these guys...they talk
'will I have the M3 soft-top or hot Audi or maybe one of the AMGs?'
when they look at their next new car

HSV are so off the planet if they think they can get
owners of Euro marques interested

I suspect the biggest competitor to HSV is Holden.

In terms of cross shopping... HSV might like to think they are competing with the Euros, but as you say, they aren't. I have cross shopped HSV and Audi (and owned both), but I'm part of a small minority.

I think HSV has become incredibly arrogant in light of the success of the E-Series. The E2 is evidence that they are working in a vacuum. The entire campaign is cringe inducing; the web site, the ads, all of it.

Many would argue looks are subjective, but there is a baseline where you will get general consensus over what looks good and what doesn't. This sweet spot has been mastered by Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar etc. HSV proved with the E-Series that they can (almost) get it right. The E2, however, demonstrates how immature HSV really is. Who can take that face seriously? And the campaign? It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed for HSV.

I suspect the presumption regarding the E2 look is that after the initial shock wears off people will find it attractive. For me its as ugly now as it ever was. There are plenty of open minded people who appreciate the quality of the product, but the boy racer looks and childish campaigns will quickly turn them off owning one.

HSV is it's own worst enemy in this regard. There is a stigma associated with owning one that is repulsive to potential owners of prestige cars. And I can appreciate that. If HSV could sort out its brand image and make it less embarrassing (socially unacceptable?) to own one, it may open itself up to a broader market and actually find itself competing with greater marques. Scott Grant may have been the man to turn around HSV... we'll never know.

I love my E-Series, but look forward to replacing it with an M5. There's only so much embarrassment I'm prepared to tolerate for the sake of getting value for money. Are you listening HSV?

[gollum]

I suspect the biggest competitor to HSV is Holden.

In terms of cross shopping... HSV might like to think they are competing with the Euros, but as you say, they aren't. I have cross shopped HSV and Audi (and owned both), but I'm part of a small minority.

I think HSV has become incredibly arrogant in light of the success of the E-Series. The E2 is evidence that they are working in a vacuum. The entire campaign is cringe inducing; the web site, the ads, all of it.

Many would argue looks are subjective, but there is a baseline where you will get general consensus over what looks good and what doesn't. This sweet spot has been mastered by Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar etc. HSV proved with the E-Series that they can (almost) get it right. The E2, however, demonstrates how immature HSV really is. Who can take that face seriously? And the campaign? It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed for HSV.

I suspect the presumption regarding the E2 look is that after the initial shock wears off people will find it attractive. For me its as ugly now as it ever was. There are plenty of open minded people who appreciate the quality of the product, but the boy racer looks and childish campaigns will quickly turn them off owning one.

HSV is it's own worst enemy in this regard. There is a stigma associated with owning one that is repulsive to potential owners of prestige cars. And I can appreciate that. If HSV could sort out its brand image and make it less embarrassing (socially unacceptable?) to own one, it may open itself up to a broader market and actually find itself competing with greater marques. Scott Grant may have been the man to turn around HSV... we'll never know.

I love my E-Series, but look forward to replacing it with an M5.

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/image.php?u=1708&dateline=1142421546
your avatar brings out the lesbian in me !! c:goodjob:

[CarlFST60L]

I dount IMUBO that's going to happen with the current E2 styling! :spew:

Yeah, agreed. But as a package, the E2 is still way beyond the FPV offering IMUBO.

[miss monaro]

I am able to rant and able to do so ,your above points are true,I own a GTS E2 and are a woman,now the dealer i bought it from BAR the salesman are CRAP...I am still waiting for a door bin that is damagded to be replaced..now if you really want to know HOW CRAP HSV ARE LISTEN......no badge on rear.paint missing on the bonnet,and after driving the car for 60kms a tyre prssure monitor issue,BUT WAIT HOW EMBARRISING FOR HSV WAS THAT STREET MACHINE TOOK IT FOR A TEST DRIVE AND PUBLISHED A CAR WITH THE FAULT IN A PHOTO IN THE MAGAZINE AND SAID HOW GOOD IT WAS WTF......................CHECK OUT THE PHOTO.................OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH HSV PICK UP YOUR ACT AND TREAT ME LIKE A CUSTOMER ANDREW PURCELLL MERRY FINNG XMAS NO MY PROBLEMS ARE NOT FIXED WANKER:rofl::flipoff::flipoff::soap:SHAME SHAME SHAME FOB ME OFF NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Grant]

I am able to rant and able to do so ,your above points are true,I own a GTS E2 and are a woman,now the dealer i bought it from BAR the salesman are CRAP...I am still waiting for a door bin that is damagded to be replaced..now if you really want to know HOW CRAP HSV ARE LISTEN......no badge on rear.paint missing on the bonnet,and after driving the car for 60kms a tyre prssure monitor issue,BUT WAIT HOW EMBARRISING FOR HSV WAS THAT STREET MACHINE TOOK IT FOR A TEST DRIVE AND PUBLISHED A CAR WITH THE FAULT IN A PHOTO IN THE MAGAZINE AND SAID HOW GOOD IT WAS WTF......................CHECK OUT THE PHOTO.................OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH HSV PICK UP YOUR ACT AND TREAT ME LIKE A CUSTOMER ANDREW PURCELLL MERRY FINNG XMAS NO MY PROBLEMS ARE NOT FIXED WANKER:rofl::flipoff::flipoff::soap:SHAME SHAME SHAME FOB ME OFF NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ouch. Have a drink for me while you're at it.
:booze:

[miss monaro]

Ouch. Have a drink for me while you're at it.
:booze:

Cheers they are well documented,my car issues are real......

[Grant]

Cheers they are well documented,my car issues are real......

I can understand your feelings, I've had similar experiences. I've had enough new Holden/HSV cars to realise I needed to lower my expectations. To be fair my current GTS is everything I thought it would be.

[nikola]

I think he is talking about competing with Euro cars in the same price bracket. So, if someone wanted to spend about 70-80 grand on a car, their options are a HSV or a BMW 3 series with a much less powerful engine.

But still, his comments came across as very arrogant. If he was actually talking about comparing a GTS with an M5, I think he's dreaming. Not only because of the price difference (if you can afford an M5, would you seriously consider a HSV?) but also because those Euros are far superior in every way.

[Grant]

Compare the price and what you get for your money with a HSV compared to an M or an AMG.
Snob factor is what will never allow cross-shopping to most.
"Darling, I will never allow myself to be seen driving an Australian made car. What would the people in Toorak think. I'd have my tennis club gold membership revoked...". :spew:

You're right, what you get for your money is the point, but the metrics at the premium end of the segment are different. The definition of value for money is different. An 'executive' in the market for a prestige car is not looking for the same kind of value as a bogan like me.

An HSV is good value for money in terms of raw performance per dollar. In terms of prestige, or luxury, per dollar, its a terrible investment.

I don't buy the snob angle. The fact the cars are Australian made is not the problem, its the brand perception. Australians are proud people, and proud of Australian made. The thing is, we're not silly. We can see quite clearly that the Europeans are kicking our ass at building cars and, for some definitions of value, the are a better buy.

What damages the HSV brand is the actions of HSV and the brand perception they foster with their pathetic, childish marketing and boy racer styling. It's an absolute shame that a car as fundamentally good as the E2 has been let down by such poor marketing and styling. I would love to see the marketing resources of Holden applied to HSV. Holden beats the crap out of HSV in terms of marketing. Why Holden don't swallow up HSV and drive it internally is something I don't understand.

[V-Car]

Paris
http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~reccie/paris1.jpg

Sydney
http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~reccie/sydney1.jpg

Cadillac designed by an Australian in Detroit.
http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~reccie/cts1.jpg

HSV designed by an Australian in Melbourne.
http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~reccie/hsv1.jpg

[Daniel996]

so who really is???

based on my experiences, it definitely is NOT the Europeans

The owners of BMWs (eg 5 series) Mercedes (C or E class)
or Audi that I know, would never contemplate a HSV
...any model HSV and why?
because it has no prestige!

These guys do not have an issue with money
(most could afford to buy a couple of Senators)
but a HSV is based on a Commodore..and that is the problem.
A tarted up Commodore sedan is not seen
to be anywhere in the sight of these guys...they talk
'will I have the M3 soft-top or hot Audi or maybe one of the AMGs?'
when they look at their next new car

HSV are so off the planet if they think they can get
owners of Euro marques interested

Dunno about that - a colleague of mine had an Audi S4 and in the last 4 years he's owned a VZ Monaro and a VE GTS.... and he was pretty happy with both.

cheers
Dan

[feistl]

Mate you can't be serious. What % of the population that buys a new HSV would change the cam and exhaust? Very,very few. Less than 1% would be my guess.

So the KW wars are very relevant to the marketability of their cars. "most powerful Aussie made car" has been bandied around for years.

May not be 100%, but a lot of VE SS and HSVs have had different exhausts put on. Stock their fairly quiet, but with a decent exhaust they sound pretty nice.

Oh and i was talking personally... (when asked by the OP "would you buy the other brand if it made more power"). So no, i would buy the car i like the most then do some engine work.

I really dislike the HSV E2s... far too blingy. Personally i would buy something like a FPV Typhoon or XR6T, or stick with my VX SS. I like a "sleeper" car thats not too showy. The BA/VXs are both very "simple, tough" looking cars... my exact taste (I actually choose my VX SS over the VX Senator, VY Clubsport and VE SS which were all in the same price range at the time).

[Martin_D]

I just like cars....

Best post here....the Aussie manufacturer that will swing Euro sales, and ultimately win the domestic performance race is the one that spends the money to adapt a DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) first. They are the way of the future, no doubt :teach:

Imagine an LS3 or F6 with paddleshifted 30 millisecond rifle bolt changes perfect for the circuit, and equipped with launch control for repeatable 1.7 60 foots standard at the strip, all wrapped up with a 'D' mode that the auto driving missus finds comfortable in traffic. The true allrounder, and only cost keeps the big 2 away...however Mitsubishi manage to fit a DCT Getrag six speed in a $60K EVO so it can be done. The public just need to demand it :cool:

[nikola]

....is the one that spends the money to adapt a DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) first. They are the way of the future, no doubt

I'm going to bet Ford will adapt first. It took Holden until 2009 to finally discontinue the antiquated 4 speed auto. A Dual clutch transmission is probably a decade away.

[Martin_D]

I have two DCT equipped cars, and after having lived with them would never go back to the dark ages of an auto or a stick shift. Even Skoda come with a DCT, its time Holden/Ford jumped on board :cool:

[Smitty]

Dunno about that - a colleague of mine had an Audi S4 and in the last 4 years he's owned a VZ Monaro and a VE GTS.... and he was pretty happy with both.

cheers
Dan

as I said...
its based on my experiences over the past 10 maybe 12 years talking to/having dinner with/ a wine at a bar/ a round of golf with...... CEOs, CFOs, CIOs, Board Chairman, Directors, business owners...male and female (but predominantly male)in the late 30s to late 50s bracket...probably 40 maybe 50 individuals in total, who have no problem buying the car of their choice! As one of my roles (apart from CFO and CIO) is company fleet manager, the chat does cover the topic of cars (amongst other things)

and the majority choice of these individuals is...a European prestige vehicle. There are of course exceptions
..one has a Bentley :1peek:, one a Jag and another a Lexus 4WD but most have chosen European

[nikola]

I agree with you Tuna but Holden rely on GM's parts catalogue for all their drivetrain components and GM have nothing like that yet. It's one of the reasons American car companies are failures, they don't keep up to date with technology let alone innovate anymore.

A BMW M5 E60 from 5 years ago is still more advanced than todays HSV's and probably HSV's of 5 years from now.

[Martin_D]

All they need is a purchasing agreement with Getrag, or Borg Warner (who did the actuation in the R35 GTR transmission) and the jobs done :)

[troytroy]

I have two DCT equipped cars, and after having lived with them would never go back to the dark ages of an auto or a stick shift. Even Skoda come with a DCT, its time Holden/Ford jumped on board :cool:

Holden's track record for introducing world leading transmissions is....:bash::spew::bawl: within ten years of their introduction in Europe...

Unfortunately with Holden only being able to raid the GM/Corvette parts bin and GM's prime market being fed on a diet of crappy cars with hi tech three speed slushboxes....it's not looking good for the future. If only they had more Europan influence at GM (probably wouldn't have got themselves into such a financial mess as well)

And we Australians are still thankfull for having an indestructable 6 speed Manual after ten years...... one day we may get one that shifts like a manual.

Could we all pool together a couple of dollers and fly the GM transmission engineers to Germany? (may as well send Council Roads engineers as well whilst we're at it):confused:

[Uwish]

Best post here....the Aussie manufacturer that will swing Euro sales, and ultimately win the domestic performance race is the one that spends the money to adapt a DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) first. They are the way of the future, no doubt :teach:

Imagine an LS3 or F6 with paddleshifted 30 millisecond rifle bolt changes perfect for the circuit, and equipped with launch control for repeatable 1.7 60 foots standard at the strip, all wrapped up with a 'D' mode that the auto driving missus finds comfortable in traffic. The true allrounder, and only cost keeps the big 2 away...however Mitsubishi manage to fit a DCT Getrag six speed in a $60K EVO so it can be done. The public just need to demand it :cool:

****ingbingo!

[planetdavo]

You're right, what you get for your money is the point, but the metrics at the premium end of the segment are different. The definition of value for money is different. An 'executive' in the market for a prestige car is not looking for the same kind of value as a bogan like me.

An HSV is good value for money in terms of raw performance per dollar. In terms of prestige, or luxury, per dollar, its a terrible investment.

I don't buy the snob angle. The fact the cars are Australian made is not the problem, its the brand perception. Australians are proud people, and proud of Australian made. The thing is, we're not silly. We can see quite clearly that the Europeans are kicking our ass at building cars and, for some definitions of value, the are a better buy.

What damages the HSV brand is the actions of HSV and the brand perception they foster with their pathetic, childish marketing and boy racer styling.

Some points correct, some not.
HSV, being based off a Holden, have much the same bogan, beer drinking, singlet wearing "Aussie" reputation as Holden has, whether they chose to have it or not. Their "Euro" advertising, combined with saying FPV is not a competitor, is clearly an attempt to have the market think of them at a higher level. Clearly higher than many posters here are capable of accepting...
My point was that many buyers with enough money to afford a mid size or larger car will choose to buy a Euro, because of perceived "social value" in their neighbourhood, no matter how good HSV make their product. This is very real my friend! Same reason Harvey Norman and their overpriced product is the lowest brand of furniture and electrical store they will buy off. Many prefer to buy their furniture off even more expensive "galleries", just so they can say the brand name when a "friend" (aka snobby acquantance) asks.
HSV have nearly always had a Senator and a Grange in their range. Both have always been quite subtle in their styling, yet both are the least popular models they produce. I believe that clearly says something.

Re suggestions HSV must fit dual clutch gearboxes and other "now" features to be taken seriously, I shudder to think what a dual clutch gearbox capable of handling 550Nm of torque would cost over the current Tremec. Would you all happily pay an extra $10-20,000 for a car with a DSG fitted, or would you all sook over your forum about the cost of it? Many already sooked all over the forum about the cost of a W427!
Why do people sook so much on here? Supposed "love" of a car often seems to lead to seriously unhappy people deep down...:confused:

[Martin_D]

Imagine the cost it took to engineer an auto to hold 550Nm........ :eek:
But they did it....

Its a culture of failure where the manufacturer is lauded for using the cheapest and most outdated technology in their highest priced sedans. Davo you perpetuate that failure by labelling those that want value for their money, and not rehashed 1980s technology as sooks. History will be the judge of whether these demanding forum consumers are whinging idiots or not. You might want to put a couple of bucks each way Davo - just some advice from someone who has driven both sides of the coin :lol:

[steve_t]

Why do people sook so much on here? ...:confused:

Whoa! Deja vu much?? Is it that time again where all the threads start repeating themselves :rofl::rofl:

I love my Maloo!! :) My only wish is that it could have a software update or something that would enable auto-up windows like the E2 has (without having to resort to the aftermarket units, and I don't need it to auto-up with locking the car etc) :goodjob: LOL

As much as paddle shifting the future of things and as much as the DCT tech is superior, I hope I'm still able to buy a decent 6MT car when I'm old and grey. I enjoy that aspect of driving :xmas:

[bouka]

FPV not a competitor of HSV? HSV being able to compete with an AMG, M or RS euro? A HSV with a decent transmission? Planet Davo making some sort of constructive comment other than his one sided sticking up for Holden (HSV) and belittling everyone in the process crap? HSV listening to Martin and doing something that may take them one step closer to their so called "competitors"?

WHATEVER!

[planetdavo]

Imagine the cost it took to engineer an auto to hold 550Nm........ :eek:
But they did it....

Its a culture of failure where the manufacturer is lauded for using the cheapest and most outdated technology in their highest priced sedans. Davo you perpetuate that failure by labelling those that want value for their money, and not rehashed 1980s technology as sooks. History will be the judge of whether these demanding forum consumers are whinging idiots or not. You might want to put a couple of bucks each way Davo - just some advice from someone who has driven both sides of the coin :lol:

Yet again you only come on here to stir up trouble. :spew:
Your example of the Lancer is fundamentaly flawed, as Mitsu will no doubt make just as many cars for the whole world with the double clutch gearbox as Holden will produce in total all variants of VE, including HSV.
Economy of scale is a very important term to understand in the industry, something you "conveniently" ignore in yet another of your trolling posts on this forum...:teach:
PS: Many people prefer traditional manuals, and double clutch gearboxes are certainly nowhere near perfect in low speed driving. Call it old school love. :)

[planetdavo]

Whoa! Deja vu much?? Is it that time again where all the threads start repeating themselves :rofl::rofl:


If someone didn't keep telling the forum sooks that you all sook too much, how would you ever know how depressingly unhappy you all sound? :confused:
Hardly anyone else dares upsetting the forum princesses on here, in case they have a :bawl:.

[BECAUZ]

I need a beer after reading all of that. Now seriously does it really matter who compete's with who? Personally i don't. I like HSV and possibly always will. When was the last time anyone had a FPV/Ford beside them as a competitor?

Let the guys who think they run the show say whatever they want. Euro car or not euro car doesn't really matter. People will always change. Peoples taste will change. So too will companies.

Who knows what's going to happen in 5 years, 10 years or 30 years. For all we know Holden/HSV may no longer exist or might even become owned by the europeans!!!

So for now lets hope we get a crossed HSV/AMG in the next decade or so....

[Party Pete]

I think the basic issue here is that HSV has illusions of grandeur while offering some pretty outdated technology and some very poor build quality. Davo, I suggest that the Senator is the slowest selling model as it is also the most expensive. At $90,000 on the road with a sunroof and sat nav it is competing with some very nicely put together pieces of kit and it has almost nothing in common with them. Add in the most over the top and ill conceived styling work I have seen in a long time, and the comments that started this whole thread look more and more ridiculous. Recognising that isn't sooking, it is simply being prepared to debate a topic on a forum with both eyes open.

[Smitty]

well whatever HSV think.....
the motoring press (who are very important in this whole thing) think that HSVs competitor is FPV and viceversa

and that was made very clear in todays Drive article on the latest FPV offering. At the end of the article it mentioned competitors..... ummm yep a HSV !
doh :1peek:

[Carby]

Imagine the cost it took to engineer an auto to hold 550Nm........ :eek:
But they did it....

Its a culture of failure where the manufacturer is lauded for using the cheapest and most outdated technology in their highest priced sedans. Davo you perpetuate that failure by labelling those that want value for their money, and not rehashed 1980s technology as sooks. History will be the judge of whether these demanding forum consumers are whinging idiots or not. You might want to put a couple of bucks each way Davo - just some advice from someone who has driven both sides of the coin :lol:

Yeah lets just look at the value for money equation. According to MOTOR magazine the lowly HSV GTS E2 using good old manual transmission was faster than an M3, E63, XFR, and S4 (all sedans) around eastern creek raceway. In fact only 5 cars were quicker around the creek. the top 2 being the GTR and R8 neither is a sedan. Given that the GTS is about $50K cheaper than the next closest in price the S4, I'd say your reference to rehashed 80's technology would only tend to accentuate how expensive and generally how unnecessary many of the smarts on new cars are.

Oh, and there are many who don't give a rats about DCT not everyone takes their car to the track to enjoy 31 millisecond gear changes, for the enthusiast nothing beats a full manual transmission.

[Pickles]

Some points correct, some not.
HSV, being based off a Holden, have much the same bogan, beer drinking, singlet wearing "Aussie" reputation as Holden has, whether they chose to have it or not. Their "Euro" advertising, combined with saying FPV is not a competitor, is clearly an attempt to have the market think of them at a higher level. Clearly higher than many posters here are capable of accepting...
My point was that many buyers with enough money to afford a mid size or larger car will choose to buy a Euro, because of perceived "social value" in their neighbourhood, no matter how good HSV make their product. This is very real my friend! Same reason Harvey Norman and their overpriced product is the lowest brand of furniture and electrical store they will buy off. Many prefer to buy their furniture off even more expensive "galleries", just so they can say the brand name when a "friend" (aka snobby acquantance) asks.
HSV have nearly always had a Senator and a Grange in their range. Both have always been quite subtle in their styling, yet both are the least popular models they produce. I believe that clearly says something.

Re suggestions HSV must fit dual clutch gearboxes and other "now" features to be taken seriously, I shudder to think what a dual clutch gearbox capable of handling 550Nm of torque would cost over the current Tremec. Would you all happily pay an extra $10-20,000 for a car with a DSG fitted, or would you all sook over your forum about the cost of it? Many already sooked all over the forum about the cost of a W427!
Why do people sook so much on here? Supposed "love" of a car often seems to lead to seriously unhappy people deep down...:confused:
AGREE.
Cheers, Pickles.

[nikola]

Its a culture of failure where the manufacturer is lauded for using the cheapest and most outdated technology in their highest priced sedans. Davo you perpetuate that failure by labelling those that want value for their money, and not rehashed 1980s technology as sooks.

AGREE.
Cheers, :goodjob:

[Martin_D]

Yet again you only come on here to stir up trouble. :spew:

There we have it, disagreeing with Davos narrow, inexperienced, and 'one trick pony' views of what makes a good car gets one labelled a trouble maker. I can live that :cool:

[Martin_D]

PS: Many people prefer traditional manuals, and double clutch gearboxes are certainly nowhere near perfect in low speed driving. Call it old school love. :)

Have you ever driven a DCT Davo? :lol:

Its dangerous forum territory the all important Top Poster steps into when over 50% of his flock on the thread start to disagree with the ignorance of the basic premise. See some of us want to see HSV succeed by lifting the bar, and in the process giving us even better cars....hoping that if they stick their head in the sand the competition will go away just wont cut it :)

[CarlFST60L]

HSV, being based off a Holden, have much the same bogan, beer drinking, singlet wearing "Aussie" reputation as Holden has, whether they chose to have it or not.

Oh so true.

[Party Pete]

I agree to some extent too, but the latest body kit is just making it worse.

[Grant]

There we have it, disagreeing with Davos narrow, inexperienced, and 'one trick pony' views of what makes a good car gets one labelled a trouble maker. I can live that :cool:

Such incredible irony. You are an amazingly ignorant and arrogant personality on this forum. You've managed to climb a single rung further up the ladder than most other grease monkeys and prance around acting all superior. You are a tool. Your arguments are flawed. You are not adding any value to the discussion.

Let me tell you the big difference between your posts and Davo's: Whether you choose to agree with him or not, he actually engages a few brain cells, thinks about the bigger picture and generally throws a compelling argument into the mix. I don't know why he bothers because any kind of intellectual discussion is almost completely lost on this forum.

You on the other hand choose to appeal to lowest common denominator because they are easily impressed. You aren't clever. You aren't insightful.
You're a sheep herder.

[Greeny34]

See some of us want to see HSV succeed by lifting the bar, and in the process giving us even better cars....hoping that if they stick their head in the sand the competition will go away just wont cut it :)

I agree with Tuna here .. I really want HSV to lift the bar ..

so I guess i'm the lowest common denominator that is easily impressed by Martin's posts :confused: and I thought I was a non biased passionate multiple HSV owner over many years.

Certainly I cant see any harm in suggesting DCT for future HSV models in this thread :goodjob:

It's interesting ... in quite a few HSV threads on the forum reading some non HSV owners (the so called experts) post on what HSV owners actually want or dont want in their cars.

Keep posting Tuna .. I dont agree with every post you put up but it certainly is healthy getting another perspective.

[CarlFST60L]

You on the other hand choose to appeal to lowest common denominator because they are easily impressed. You aren't clever. You aren't insightful.
You're a sheep herder.


wahahahah, now that's some funny sh!t!

[BullockBob]

There we have it, disagreeing with Davos narrow, inexperienced, and 'one trick pony' views of what makes a good car gets one labelled a trouble maker. I can live that :cool:

Yes, it does appear that way. I have no idea who planetdavo is except that he apparently works for Holden (or a Dealer) in some capacity. But I have noticed that if you say anything negative against Holden or HSV then expect to get told you have no idea what you're talking about.

Having owned nothing but Holden's all my driving life (in fact nothing but Commodores and derivatives), I guess I feel I have as much right as anyone else to voice an opinion, without getting told how wrong I am when I feel a criticism is necessary.

[Martin_D]

There is indeed more to Davo than meets the eye :)
He has professed at one stage to have worked in Holden Spare Parts, but wont say where. He also only a couple of months later let on to the forum that he knew the intricacies of the Obama plan for a bankrupt GM well before it was announced publicly. Davo refuses to say what it is he does at Holden, or where it is he works. Its gotta be high up though as he has a company Epica :bow:

[Martin_D]

so I guess i'm the lowest common denominator that is easily impressed by Martin's posts :confused: and I thought I was a non biased passionate multiple HSV owner over many years.

Those that generally agree 'off the cuff' with Davos view of HSV are those that have never owned a HSV. I have, several, more than Davo I would reckon :)

[Ghosn]

Has Davo ever posted his ride? Curious to see what "Mr Know it all" drives.

[Grant]

I agree with Tuna here .. I really want HSV to lift the bar ..

so I guess i'm the lowest common denominator that is easily impressed by Martin's posts :confused: and I thought I was a non biased passionate multiple HSV owner over many years.

Certainly I cant see any harm in suggesting DCT for future HSV models in this thread :goodjob:

It's interesting ... in quite a few HSV threads on the forum reading some non HSV owners (the so called experts) post on what HSV owners actually want or dont want in their cars.

Keep posting Tuna .. I dont agree with every post you put up but it certainly is healthy getting another perspective.

We all want HSV to lift their game. That's a given. We can also agree on what some of the nice to have features are that we would like to see on new models. At least, the features that matter to a niche market of enthusiasts like the people on this forum.

So the concept of a sequential manual gearbox comes us. Yes we would like to see it in an HSV product and, according to Mr Tuna, it's a no brainer because all you need is a supply agreement with the manufacturer. Even lowly Skoda has pulled it off (of course, Skoda has the backing of the VAG group with the likes of Audi and Volkswagen, and their suppliers, at its disposal).

Enter Davo with a little bit of reality, suggesting it isn't that simple. And it isn't.

Some considerations:
* There is a significant existing knowledge base of the T56 derived gearboxes,
* There is an inventory of T56 parts,
* The production line is geared up for T56 installation,
* Supply agreements for the various maintenance products (fluids, seals etc) are all in place,
* Staff are trained for the T56,
* The T56 is at the right price point,
* The T56 is proven.

Nice to have, yes. Going to happen overnight, no.

It might be fun to sit around and enjoy a circle jerk fantasising about the concept of a sequential manual box in an HSV, but try to keep one hand on reality.

[Ellistwo]

In the latest WHEELS magazine HSV's Phil Harding reckons that FPV is not a direct competitor to HSV :confused::confused:

He states that only two percent cross the fence from Ford to Holden etc

Therefore he thinks that comparos between each product is irrelevant.

I'm sure every owner on here whether it be HSV/Holden or Ford/FPV want to know how their car stacks up against the competition.

If XR8's were quicker and FPV GT's offered more power and were quicker than a GTS - would any of you guys switch teams? I know I would easily get into a new FG F6.....:hide:

I think you'd find that statement was designed to inflame the "bogan" (sic Planetdavo) competition.

[Martin_D]

So the concept of a sequential manual gearbox comes us. Yes we would like to see it in an HSV product and, according to Mr Tuna, it's a no brainer because all you need is a supply agreement with the manufacturer. Even lowly Skoda has pulled it off (of course, Skoda has the backing of the VAG group with the likes of Audi and Volkswagen, and their suppliers, at its disposal).

You forget Holden are part of one of the worlds biggest auto makers - GM - which have been given immunity from bankruptcy worldwide via the Obama plan. They could easily source a transmission...

Turn eyes to a struggling Ford Australia - able to source a 6 speed German ZF Transmission (to replace their clunky BTR/ION unit) for their Australia only Falcon, with small sales potential, via existing parent company buying agreements. Turns out its one of the best parts of the car too :teach:

[Ghia351]

Regardless of what HSV think their opposition is now that the embargo has been lifted on the new Mustang V8 we can get a hint of the base spec Falcon V8 replacement due before July 2010.
A link to FAF:
http://www.fordaustraliaforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=339590&postcount=1

or : http://media.ford.com/

[macca_779]

There is indeed more to Davo than meets the eye :)
He has professed at one stage to have worked in Holden Spare Parts, but wont say where. He also only a couple of months later let on to the forum that he knew the intricacies of the Obama plan for a bankrupt GM well before it was announced publicly. Davo refuses to say what it is he does at Holden, or where it is he works. Its gotta be high up though as he has a company Epica :bow:

Parts Interpreter at Ferntree Gully Holden IIRC is where he works Martin.

[planetdavo]

Have you ever driven a DCT Davo?


Didn't know that one was coming....:lmao::rofl::confused:
Two different cars actually, but we know you don't really care. Your post was just a way of impressing the sheep. :)

[planetdavo]

Keep posting Tuna .. I dont agree with every post you put up but it certainly is healthy getting another perspective.

Another way you perhaps should be looking at Mr T's input to this forum is that he only ever posts to either stir up Holden owning members of this forum, or to tell all the Holden owning members of this forum how dumb and poorly equipped their cars are compared to other product out there.
He does, of course, always seem to miss the point that, dollar for dollar, we (as in Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV) produce some of the most practical and affordable performance cars in the world, as opposed to examples like his 2 door $150,000 plus GTR, and hardcore Lancer Evo...:)

[planetdavo]

You forget Holden are part of one of the worlds biggest auto makers - GM - which have been given immunity from bankruptcy worldwide via the Obama plan. They could easily source a transmission...

Turn eyes to a struggling Ford Australia - able to source a 6 speed German ZF Transmission (to replace their clunky BTR/ION unit) for their Australia only Falcon, with small sales potential, via existing parent company buying agreements. Turns out its one of the best parts of the car too :teach:

Word in the industry is that Ford pays double the cost for their externally sourced ZF trans compared to Holden and their GM sourced 6 speed transmission.
So, we have Ford selling less cars, but offer an auto that costs twice as much! That will be awesome for profits! :lmao: :goodjob: Tuna. NOT.
Might be why many Falcons come with a 5 speed auto standard...:)

[SHANESVZSS]

Another way you perhaps should be looking at Mr T's input to this forum is that he only ever posts to either stir up Holden owning members of this forum, or to tell all the Holden owning members of this forum how dumb and poorly equipped their cars are compared to other product out there.
He does, of course, always seem to miss the point that, dollar for dollar, we (as in Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV) produce some of the most practical and affordable performance cars in the world, as opposed to examples like his 2 door $150,000 plus GTR, and hardcore Lancer Evo...:)


:goodjob: davo well said! i think value for money we have it pritty good in regards to value for dollar , practability! , performance , safty ect ect , i just looked at a brand new ss-v special edition today for 50k drive away , thats with out nogatiating yet , BFYB holden/ford , hsv/fpv do extremly well!

[Excellent]

Another way you perhaps should be looking at Mr T's input to this forum is that he only ever posts to either stir up Holden owning members of this forum, or to tell all the Holden owning members of this forum how dumb and poorly equipped their cars are compared to other product out there.
He does, of course, always seem to miss the point that, dollar for dollar, we (as in Holden/HSV and Ford/FPV) produce some of the most practical and affordable performance cars in the world, as opposed to examples like his 2 door $150,000 plus GTR, and hardcore Lancer Evo...:)

You missed one.

"Or telling members here that he's the authority in engine tuning."

I nearly choked when I read that comment. My thinking would be, if he was so good he'd be tuning race cars or at least have some sort of serious manufacturer involvement.

I don't think pro tuners would be wasting their time telling everyone how good they are on car forums. That's a given. :jester:

:rofl:

[planetdavo]

Has Davo ever posted his ride? Curious to see what "Mr Know it all" drives.

Having a wee bit of trouble understanding what a "CV8 plaything" might be?
:confused:

[planetdavo]

You missed one.

"Or telling members here that he's the authority in engine tuning."

I nearly choked when I read that comment. My thinking would be, if he was so good he'd be tuning race cars or at least have some sort of serious manufacturer involvement.

I don't think pro tuners would be wasting their time telling everyone how good they are on car forums. That's a given. :jester:

:rofl:

:yup:
He keeps asking why I don't tell everyone where I work.
Why do I need to? :confused:
I'm not trying to sell anything, as opposed to said member that is a "sponsor" of this forum purely to make a massive markup every time the car of a forum member rolls onto his dyno. :vpo:
Considering he is a sponsor trying to empty the wallets of forum members, you'd think he would learn to behave a bit, unless that is indicative of his target market's thinking abilities...
:hide:

[Martin_D]

Word in the industry is that Ford pays double the cost for their externally sourced ZF trans compared to Holden and their GM sourced 6 speed transmission.

Ford probably do....but the ZF drives better on the road, and thats what matters to the guy that buys the car, not how much profit the company made selling it to him. Good manufacturer profit margin% does not mean good car :idea:

What you fail to understand Davo is that most car enthusiasts want to enjoy the car, not how much money they just made the company screwing it together for them. Damn enthusiasts :cool:

[planetdavo]

They probably do....but it drives better on the road, and thats what matters to the guy that buys the car, not how much profit the company made selling it to him. Good manufacturer profit margin% does not mean good car.


Not if it leads to a front wheel drive Falcon, or even worse for Australia, no local Ford production at all...:idea:
Any business needs to be profitable to survive. No use having the best product in the world if the company shuts the doors and puts the staff out on the streets. :teach:
Many "enthusiusts" may be selfish pricks and don't care if that scenario happens, but many other decent folks do.

[Martin_D]

All of which takes us back to the point the first company that 'blinks' and installs local DCT technology will have a winner on their hands. Both GM and Ford already have these products in the pipeline :)

I know I would buy one of either regardless of the badge :cool:

[planetdavo]

All of which takes us back to the point the first company that 'blinks' and installs local DCT technology will have a winner on their hands. Both GM and Ford already have these products in the pipeline :)

I know I would buy one of either regardless of the badge :cool:

No doubt, but it all comes down to cost, and that has been my whole point from the start. Installing a dual clutch trans at the moment would massively jack up the RRP. Is the market for an HSV or FPV product prepared to pay this hefty "penalty" in this country yet?
I dare say most FPV/HSV buyers would prefer 6 pot brakes and 20 inch rims fitted over a DCT box at this point in time in Australia.
Europe may differ, but we are not a country in Europe, and neither is our "enthusiust" car culture. :)

[Ghosn]

Having a wee bit of trouble understanding what a "CV8 plaything" might be?
:confused:

I can type crap in "My ride" bit too. Show us what you are made of, don't be afraid.

[macca_779]

Ford has been making a great product for years. They are being killed by holden not because the holden car is better but because of ignorant brand loyalty and better marketing. It takes time for their image to be repaired from the AU debacle. Eventually if they continue to make great cars it will happen. Its reasons like this they have to offer expensive superior gearboxes. It might net them less profit at the moment but when things turn if the market comes back it will have been worth it. If they offered a worse to boost profit they will never have a chance.

[Walt Kowalski]

Tell him he's dreamin'

[V-Car]

Not if it leads to a front wheel drive Falcon, or even worse for Australia, no local Ford production at all...:idea:
Any business needs to be profitable to survive. No use having the best product in the world if the company shuts the doors and puts the staff out on the streets. :teach:
Many "enthusiusts" may be selfish pricks and don't care if that scenario happens, but many other decent folks do.

You seem to forget that GM was on its knees and needed a huge bailout from the US taxpayer to continue building ANY vehicle, including Commodore, and you'd be looking for a new job.
A FWD Falcon beats no Holden at all!

On the other hand, Ford asked for (and needed) no handout, and is still making a profit by screwing together vehicles with more expensive componentry (ZF), designing their own engines (6 and Boss V8) in Australia (instead of off the shelf US engines) and importing quality from Europe instead of cheap Korean at huge markups.

If, after all that, it doesnt tell you something about GM's management and decision making culture and skills, then you need a reality check.
But then again, i guess i'll be called a know nothing sook for daring to have a different opinion to yours.

[BullockBob]

You seem to forget that GM was on its knees and needed a huge bailout from the US taxpayer to continue building ANY vehicle, including Commodore, and you'd be looking for a new job.
A FWD Falcon beats no Holden at all!

On the other hand, Ford asked for (and needed) no handout, and is still making a profit by screwing together vehicles with more expensive componentry (ZF), designing their own engines (6 and Boss V8) in Australia (instead of off the shelf US engines) and importing quality from Europe instead of cheap Korean at huge markups.

If, after all that, it doesnt tell you something about GM's management and decision making culture and skills, then you need a reality check.
But then again, i guess i'll be called a know nothing sook for daring to have a different opinion to yours.

As one of the Detroit "big three", Ford has had financial difficulties for years, so don't think that the General's management is any worse than the others.

[Party Pete]

Yep, they all have their problems in the US and Ford is hardly a rock solid investment at the moment, but they are the only one to survive without being bailed out so far which says something about their management compared to GM. As for Australia, Ford is catching Holden in sales and is closer to profitability despite being cheaper and better equipped model for model and despite any alleged price difference with the 6 speed gearbox. So, they seem to be doing a better job from where they were a few years ago compared to Holden which is losing market share and sales and bleeding cash. Frankly I see Holden following GM US into bankruptcy by penny pinching on details and then wondering why people don't buy their products. Some here call the cars great value, but if you put any value on quality then the Holdens/HSVs are looking pretty crap value actually. Geez, the $85,000 Senator I test drove didn't even have the paint on the bumpers matching the bodywork. That isn't acceptable on a $20,000 car any more and didn't happen prior to the VE.

[Ellistwo]

Word in the industry is that Ford pays double the cost for their externally sourced ZF trans compared to Holden and their GM sourced 6 speed transmission.
.....:)


Balance that against the low cost spend on R&D and it gives Ford Oz a bit of room to move.

[planetdavo]

I can type crap in "My ride" bit too. Show us what you are made of, don't be afraid.

I can act like a little child on a forum too, but I choose not too. :)
Those that know me know that I've had a CV8 since new. :teach:

[planetdavo]

Balance that against the low cost spend on R&D and it gives Ford Oz a bit of room to move.

Ford spent less because they didn't develop a car for export, didn't develop a new wagon, didn't develop a luxury long wheelbase model, and had already spent a sh!tload (approx $500 million) on a 2002 mid model BA upgrade, the basis of which continues into FG. The signs for the future aren't good, as they aren't profiting from many market segments at all.
Personally, I believe the next Falcon will run V6 Duratec's on a platform shared with Mustang, running a locally designed "top hat" body. The"local" Falcon as we know it is about to be history.

[planetdavo]

You seem to forget that GM was on its knees and needed a huge bailout from the US taxpayer to continue building ANY vehicle, including Commodore, and you'd be looking for a new job.
A FWD Falcon beats no Holden at all!

On the other hand, Ford asked for (and needed) no handout, and is still making a profit by screwing together vehicles with more expensive componentry (ZF), designing their own engines (6 and Boss V8) in Australia (instead of off the shelf US engines) and importing quality from Europe instead of cheap Korean at huge markups.

If, after all that, it doesnt tell you something about GM's management and decision making culture and skills, then you need a reality check.
But then again, i guess i'll be called a know nothing sook for daring to have a different opinion to yours.

You can have whatever "opinion" you want. The internet is kind of like that. :)
Senior Holden management recently told me that during this chapter 11 bankruptcy, they had to fund their own operations, as no money was coming from the US.
This includes developing the Cruze hatch.
Settled down yet, or have you still got your knickers in a knot? :confused:

[EgoFG]

Personally, I believe the next Falcon will run V6 Duratec's on a platform shared with Mustang, running a locally designed "top hat" body. The"local" Falcon as we know it is about to be history.

I rarely jump in wth ford bias ... but ...
then the Falc would be exactly where the commo wants to be. WW platform car, WW engine ... oh hang on, the commo is already there from an engine pov, just waiting for GM GRWD to begin again.

[A^K^T]

..................
Personally, I believe the next Falcon will run V6 Duratec's on a platform shared with Mustang, running a locally designed "top hat" body. The"local" Falcon as we know it is about to be history.

Does the Mustang still use a live rear axle and cart springs ?
For Ford's sake i hope the local car doesn't get stuck with that if they go down that path.

[planetdavo]

I rarely jump in wth ford bias ... but ...
then the Falc would be exactly where the commo wants to be. WW platform car, WW engine ... oh hang on, the commo is already there from an engine pov, just waiting for GM GRWD to begin again.

Bring back the Holden red motor...:lmao:
Ford must go to a global platform and drivelines.
Too much changes too regularly these days to continue old habits. It also indicates they are not integrated into Ford's world wide export plans, by running a 6 cyl engine unique to a small island at the @rse end of the planet.

[planetdavo]

Does the Mustang still use a live rear axle and cart springs ?
For Ford's sake i hope the local car doesn't get stuck with that if they go down that path.

Definitely the live axle anyway!
They went back to it. :confused:

[Ghosn]

Those that know me know that I've had a CV8 since new. :teach:

If you are too embarrassed to show it, fair enough then.

[A^K^T]

Definitely the live axle anyway!
They went back to it. :confused:

My mistake , live rear axle & coil springs link to picture (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2010/def/2010-Ford-Mustang-Suspension-1280x960.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.seriouswheels.com/2010/def/2010-Ford-Mustang-Suspension-1280x960.htm&usg=__VIgMTOONHrZUhwrtgCtAVQP84oY=&h=960&w=1280&sz=318&hl=en&start=3&sig2=BKGrSVeDnJHI9YtmtXbUXQ&um=1&tbnid=YuTig2kf5kwONM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3D2010%2Bmustang%2Brear%2Bsuspension%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1&ei=g285S8_wOc-TkAWn-JzWAg)

[planetdavo]

Ford has been making a great product for years. They are being killed by holden not because the holden car is better but because of ignorant brand loyalty and better marketing. It takes time for their image to be repaired from the AU debacle. Eventually if they continue to make great cars it will happen. Its reasons like this they have to offer expensive superior gearboxes. It might net them less profit at the moment but when things turn if the market comes back it will have been worth it. If they offered a worse to boost profit they will never have a chance.

Ford's problems go back way further than that.
Not content with telling Australia it doesn't really need V8's in the early 80's, they also inflicted that sh!t we all know as XD-XF and early EA Falcon's on us. People kept buying them as the early Commodore was too small for many, but the writing was on the wall, as Commodore was the most popular private buyer car by VL.
Once Holden had released a bigger VN, and EA proved to be a P.O.S, buyers flocked to Holden. Once VT was released, they've never looked back, and many previous Ford buyers still don't want to look back. AU was just part of the problem, but nowhere near all of it.

[planetdavo]

If you are too embarrassed to show it, fair enough then.

Anyone want to inform this "person" how owning a pristine low km CV8 could possibly lead to "embarrassment"? :lmao::lmao::lmao:
:feedtroll:

[Ghosn]

Anyone want to inform this "person" how owning a pristine low km CV8 could possibly lead to "embarrassment"? :lmao::lmao::lmao:
:feedtroll:

Dude, you are quick to talk your car up, but too afraid to show it off, makes no sense to me. :confused:

You are obviously afraid of something.

[djst]

Ford's problems go back way further than that.
Not content with telling Australia it doesn't really need V8's in the early 80's, they also inflicted that sh!t we all know as XD-XF and early EA Falcon's on us. People kept buying them as the early Commodore was too small for many, but the writing was on the wall, as Commodore was the most popular private buyer car by VL.
Once Holden had released a bigger VN, and EA proved to be a P.O.S, buyers flocked to Holden. Once VT was released, they've never looked back, and many previous Ford buyers still don't want to look back. AU was just part of the problem, but nowhere near all of it.

Yes i remember those days,in the mid eighties.
That was the time that a local manufacturer called Holden was bankrupt,and big Brother GM came to the rescue.
Several decades later big brother has been in trouble to the tune of billions.

[BullockBob]

You can have whatever "opinion" you want. The internet is kind of like that. :)


Please remember this the next time you are on the old soap box.

:goodjob:

[Ellistwo]

Ford spent less because they didn't develop a car for export, didn't develop a new wagon, didn't develop a luxury long wheelbase model, and had already spent a sh!tload (approx $500 million) on a 2002 mid model BA upgrade, the basis of which continues into FG. The signs for the future aren't good, as they aren't profiting from many market segments at all.
Personally, I believe the next Falcon will run V6 Duratec's on a platform shared with Mustang, running a locally designed "top hat" body. The"local" Falcon as we know it is about to be history.

I think you are correct. If they are already spending taxpayer money to adapt the falcon to another engine, gearbag, etc, and if rumours are true, possibly FWD it would be prudent to have it Duratec V6 friendly too.... if it survives at all past the FG model.

[Ellistwo]

Yes i remember those days,in the mid eighties.
That was the time that a local manufacturer called Holden was bankrupt,and big Brother GM came to the rescue.
Several decades later big brother has been in trouble to the tune of billions.

Don't get to far ahead of yourself there, Ford is in pretty poor shape with a debt that keeps climbing (US$35bn), not counting the other US$100bn liability they conveniently ignore that Ford Finance are carrying. Even the so called profit they declared last quarterly report to inflate the share and bond attractiveness was in fact money dragged from Ford finance; if the mafia did the same it would be called money laundering. Holden were never bankrupt, they are a wholly owned subsidiary.

[Martin_D]

Who gives a hoot about the companies and the debt (other than Davo as they pay him) lets encourage them both to release BETTER cars, not just turn the re-heater on to serve up lukewarm broth over and over. Most of here are consumers not upper echelon bonded car company executives - lets see what hits the roads and let your decisions do the talking, not Davo :cool:

[djst]

Don't get to far ahead of yourself there, Ford is in pretty poor shape with a debt that keeps climbing (US$35bn), not counting the other US$100bn liability they conveniently ignore that Ford Finance are carrying. Even the so called profit they declared last quarterly report to inflate the share and bond attractiveness was in fact money dragged from Ford finance; if the mafia did the same it would be called money laundering. Holden were never bankrupt, they are a wholly owned subsidiary.

Yes its doom and gloom for the shareholders who bought Ford shares for under a dollar just over a year ago,shares are only 10.20 at the moment.

I wonder what return the American taxpayer will recieve on their hard earned after tens of Billions of their money was poured in GM to stay afloat.

[Carby]

Who gives a hoot about the companies and the debt (other than Davo as they pay him) lets encourage them both to release BETTER cars, not just turn the re-heater on to serve up lukewarm broth over and over. Most of here are consumers not upper echelon bonded car company executives - lets see what hits the roads and let your decisions do the talking, not Davo :cool:

Or ST for that matter....................

[Ellistwo]

Yes its doom and gloom for the shareholders who bought Ford shares for under a dollar just over a year ago,shares are only 10.20 at the moment.

I wonder what return the American taxpayer will recieve on their hard earned after tens of Billions of their money was poured in GM to stay afloat.

Shareholders don't impact the profit and loss. A lot of people made a lot of money trading dot com shares too.... a similar amount took a bath.

You are aware of the loans poored into Ford by DOE? Plus their request of the US Federal Govt:


Specifically, Ford requests access to $9 billion in bridge financing..

[YMK]

You can have whatever "opinion" you want. The internet is kind of like that. :)/breaks wind.

I'll speak slowly, cos it appears you, and your sidekick wally/ellistwo, are still in 2006.

Ford is making profits. Here and in the US. Their market share in the U.S. has increased, and will keep increasing because they spent big when others were holding back during the GFC. The result? A whole myriad of new cars being released, with nothing from GM to compete.

Their TGW are second to none, here and in the U.S.

They also happen to be free of being owned by the US government.
They also have won the people by not taking any handouts. Rednecks & bogans not included, which is a good thing.
They're ahead of schedule to repay all their debts, which by the by, are nowhere near what wally/mr-fiction said they're at.

The ZF is all class. Yes it does cost more than the clunkbox GM unit, but then again, it needs to be, as the Falcon is a quality product. GM's box fits in nicely with the VE. Tacky.

[NODDY347]

/breaks wind.

I'll speak slowly, cos it appears you, and your sidekick wally/ellistwo, are still in 2006.

Ford is making profits. Here and in the US. Their market share in the U.S. has increased, and will keep increasing because they spent big when others were holding back during the GFC. The result? A whole myriad of new cars being released, with nothing from GM to compete.

Their TGW are second to none, here and in the U.S.

They also happen to be free of being owned by the US government.
They also have won the people by not taking any handouts. Rednecks & bogans not included, which is a good thing.
They're ahead of schedule to repay all their debts, which by the by, are nowhere near what wally/mr-fiction said they're at.

The ZF is all class. Yes it does cost more than the clunkbox GM unit, but then again, it needs to be, as the Falcon is a quality product. GM's box fits in nicely with the VE. Tacky.

YMK you obviously don't get it, this is a holden forum. Ford suck Holden rules!
Try not to post factual info next time please.

[Martin_D]

So, who would pay $10K more for a HSV with a DCT transmission?
(On the Mitsubishi its a $3K option compared to conventional manual, but as Davo points out HSV need to make a handsome earn)

I would :)

Who would consider switching camps to an F6 that offered this technology

I would :)

Any other takers? :eek:
or maybe its a just a dumb idea..... :lol:

Bingo - http://www.0-60mag.com/online/?p=2751
Davo, give them a call on the bat phone and tell them not to bother. Still plenty of profit to be made without this new fangled DCT stuff :cool:

[mmciau]

If GM NA is looking seriously at the DCT for the Corvette, then it would probably be a fair bet that Holden would also look at it for their vehicles.

Evolution continues and I'd suggest there is considerable 'pressure' on manufacturers to present the most efficient vehicles to the public as economically as possible. If it is engineering such as the DCT that enables better efficiency, then it will be implemented I am sure.

If they don't, they stand a fair chance of losing market share and market loyalty for their products.

mike

[planetdavo]

Who gives a hoot about the companies and the debt (other than Davo as they pay him) lets encourage them both to release BETTER cars, not just turn the re-heater on to serve up lukewarm broth over and over. Most of here are consumers not upper echelon bonded car company executives - lets see what hits the roads and let your decisions do the talking, not Davo :cool:

Renault, of course, produced a "better" Pulsar that we all know as the awesome Tiida, when they rescued your beloved Nissan from bankruptcy. :cool:

[planetdavo]

Yes its doom and gloom for the shareholders who bought Ford shares for under a dollar just over a year ago,shares are only 10.20 at the moment.


Just about anyone that bought shares a year ago has done spectacularly well! Gotta love that GFC! :lmao:
I've made enough in the last 12 months to almost afford that DCT conversion Tuna reckons we must have! :cool:
(Ford, of course, were a basket case almost everyone thought would shut down around then too. Slightly important fact. :))

[planetdavo]

So, who would pay $10K more for a HSV with a DCT transmission?
(On the Mitsubishi its a $3K option compared to conventional manual)


Perhaps in your haste to post up your usual sh!te you missed the post about how many DCT (SST) equipped Lancers Mitsu will produce in a year, compared to how many cars HSV produce in a year?
Ever heard of economies of scale? :confused:
Keep your baiting sh!te posts up Tuna. You do amuse me, but you do come across as someone with very little knowledge of "this" side of the industry...:1peek:

[r00lerz]

Might even see the new ZF 8speed auto here in a few years time.:rofl:

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2009/zfs-new-auto-plenty-of-life-in-the-old-planetary-box-yet-17800

[Martin_D]

Perhaps in your haste to post up your usual sh!te you missed the post about how many DCT (SST) equipped Lancers Mitsu will produce in a year, compared to how many cars HSV produce in a year?
Ever heard of economies of scale? :confused:
Keep your baiting sh!te posts up Tuna. You do amuse me, but you do come across as someone with very little knowledge of "this" side of the industry...:1peek:

Looks like DCT is making its way into the Corvette....
and the entire LS7 engine from Vette made its way into a HSV Commodore, just a thought :)

[planetdavo]

Dude, you are quick to talk your car up, but too afraid to show it off, makes no sense to me. :confused:

You are obviously afraid of something.

Afraid of joining baiting tools on forums that need to show off their rides as an ego boost for their otherwise boring, unhappy lives?
I understand perfectly. :)
I bored with your crap now. Sorry your ego was so offended recently that you felt the need to pursue this path of childish behaviour. It makes forums an embarrassment, and yet another example of why "enthusiust" forums will never be taken seriously. We should all salute your efforts to help our cause toward respectability.
:goodjob:

[troytroy]

There are alot of opinions here and most of it isn't being driven by the topic but rather previous agendas.......:vpo:

Although hidden in there are some good points!

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the motoring media's effect on the Australian buying public.

WHEELS, MOTOR, etc etc have been spruiking on about the ZF transmission and modern transmissions for some time in both comparos and individual model assessments. These comments and comparos effect the buying public's opinion more so than everyone's opinion on here, surprisingly.

Ford's decision to spend extra on a ZF transmission has rewarded them with a market share that is eating into Holden's 6 cylinder market (and commercial leasing market).....and they also sell their XR6 for considerably less than a Holden SV6 SIDI. This price disparity makes most people's decision easier.

New technology transmissions cost money, no doubt about that, however savings can be had elsewhere as other previously expensive 'fancy' systems become cheaper and more prolific. (airbags, Climate control, entertainment systems etc) advances in automation and robotics in manufacturing - so profit margins across different components shift. So I wont be going to my local dealer with a sympathetic donation just yet, to buy a new transmission.

Because Holden and Ford have just spent a motza upgrading their vehicles in a declining market - I'm guessing cash is tight for a while until later on in the model cycles. Holden has been at least trickle feeding smaller technologies into the market to keep people's interest over the last two years (AFM, SIDI etc)

[planetdavo]

Looks like DCT is making its way into the Corvette....
and the entire LS7 engine from Vette made its way into a HSV Commodore, just a thought :)

Hmmm, now which end of the car is the C6 Corvette's transmission mounted Tuna?
Could have sworn they fit it where VE has a diff currently mounted...:hide:

[planetdavo]

There are alot of opinions here and most of it isn't being driven by the topic but rather previous agendas.......:vpo:

Although hidden in there are some good points!

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the motoring media's effect on the Australian buying public.

WHEELS, MOTOR, etc etc have been spruiking on about the ZF transmission and modern transmissions for some time in both comparos and individual model assessments. These comments and comparos effect the buying public's opinion more so than everyone's opinion on here, surprisingly.

Ford's decision to spend extra on a ZF transmission has rewarded them with a market share that is eating into Holden's 6 cylinder market (and commercial leasing market).....and they also sell their XR6 for considerably less than a Holden SV6 SIDI. This price disparity makes most people's decision easier.


Ford used to easily lead the large car segment. Perhaps a case of Ford getting back some of the market share they had "lost" for way too long...
In many ways, Ford have have the "better" 6 cyl driveline since late EA Falcon 20 years ago, but they didn't have the better "package" in many people's eyes, so they suffered.
It might come as a shock to some people on here, but many buyers are interested in far more than just engines and transmissions...:hide:
VF is coming next year, and VE is quite a bit older than Ford's (belated) FG. Time will tell.

[Ellistwo]

I suspect there is an infestation going on here of the worst kind:- the AFF bullies, IQ average 90, who have absolutely no time or grace for any cars other than Ford.

[Ghia351]

I suspect there is an infestation going on here of the worst kind:- the AFF bullies, IQ average 90, who have absolutely no time or grace for any cars other than Ford.Now your baiting because if I'm right no Ford fans have taken part in this cat fight...

[planetdavo]

Now your baiting because if I'm right no Ford fans have taken part in this cat fight...

There are that many pages of crap in what wasn't even a particularly newsworthy subject to begin with, I really can't be bothered reading it all again to find out...

[snappy]

So, who would pay $10K more for a HSV with a DCT transmission?
(On the Mitsubishi its a $3K option compared to conventional manual, but as Davo points out HSV need to make a handsome earn)

I would :)

Who would consider switching camps to an F6 that offered this technology

I would :)

Any other takers? :eek:
or maybe its a just a dumb idea..... :lol:

Bingo - http://www.0-60mag.com/online/?p=2751
Davo, give them a call on the bat phone and tell them not to bother. Still plenty of profit to be made without this new fangled DCT stuff :cool:


What about the 4pot turbo falcon that will have dct will that make you switch camps :jester:

[Ellistwo]

/breaks wind.

I'll speak slowly, cos it appears you, and your sidekick wally/ellistwo, are still in 2006.

Ford is making profits. Here and in the US. Their market share in the U.S. has increased, and will keep increasing because they spent big when others were holding back during the GFC. The result? A whole myriad of new cars being released, with nothing from GM to compete.

Their TGW are second to none, here and in the U.S.

They also happen to be free of being owned by the US government.
They also have won the people by not taking any handouts. Rednecks & bogans not included, which is a good thing.
They're ahead of schedule to repay all their debts, which by the by, are nowhere near what wally/mr-fiction said they're at.

The ZF is all class. Yes it does cost more than the clunkbox GM unit, but then again, it needs to be, as the Falcon is a quality product. GM's box fits in nicely with the VE. Tacky.

You sound like you believe what you are selling. Less time posting propoganda, trolling and more time learning basic accounting would help you understand financials my boy. Why are you here when you can freely bag out Holden on your beloved AFF amongst similarly closed minded boymen bogans and rack up some rep smilies in the process.

[Ellistwo]

Now your baiting because if I'm right no Ford fans have taken part in this cat fight...

No you are wrong, there are trolls in this thread and they don't have the balls to reveal themselves, I recognise their purile styles. There's nothing wrong liking Ford product, they have some really good stuff, but these guys have no time for anything else and will feed in packs.

[planetdavo]

What about the 4pot turbo falcon that will have dct will that make you switch camps :jester:

Mr Tuna may claim to be on "this" side of the fence, but I dare suggest that mere mention of his recent garage of cars combined with a relentless effort to discredit any product from the house of either Holden or HSV proves he hasn't been a fanboy of the red product for a hell of a long time.
Appears he's only a member of this forum for "sponsor based reasons"...(translation- make as much money as possible out of you all).

[Ghosn]

Afraid of joining baiting tools on forums that need to show off their rides as an ego boost for their otherwise boring, unhappy lives?
I understand perfectly. :)

Wow, you pretty much labeled everyone that has ever posted their ride on a forum, boring and unhappy with their life. You're a smart guy!

And considering you're the person who spends his life on these forums, I'd say you were the person that fits that category.



I bored with your crap now. Sorry your ego was so offended recently that you felt the need to pursue this path of childish behaviour. It makes forums an embarrassment, and yet another example of why "enthusiust" forums will never be taken seriously. We should all salute your efforts to help our cause toward respectability.
:goodjob:

My ego has never been offended and never will be, especially by someone like you. I hope you're not labeling yourself as an enthusiast because you're not even close. You're just a drop kick that stands behind a desk and jumps on the back of anyone that has anything negative to say about a Holden.

And I know why you're too afraid to post you're ride. :jester:

[hothed]

meh, im actually trying to sell my vz ssz ute, which has had basiclly everything done to it, to get myself into an f6, value for money, good driveablity as an everyday car, doesnt require 20,000 bucks to get a decent power figure, doesnt use 40 L per 100, i agreed with what some people have said, holden and ford will always be compared aginst each other, its an unwritten law.

[bouka]

meh, im actually trying to sell my vz ssz ute, which has had basiclly everything done to it, to get myself into an f6, value for money, good driveablity as an everyday car, doesnt require 20,000 bucks to get a decent power figure, doesnt use 40 L per 100, i agreed with what some people have said, holden and ford will always be compared aginst each other, its an unwritten law.

Am a big fan of the F6. Have driven F6 and F6E several times and everytime i get out i am in love. An awsome "of the showroom floor" performance car (mechanically) and has to be one of the best drivetrains going around at the moment (certainly best under $140k, imho).

[planetdavo]

Wow, you pretty much labeled everyone that has ever posted their ride on a forum, boring and unhappy with their life. You're a smart guy!

And considering you're the person who spends his life on these forums, I'd say you were the person that fits that category.


In case you haven't figured it out yet, I really don't care if I offend a few precious ego's on here. Much of my time is consumed providing plenty of info from "the inside" to try and help many on here, but at the same time, clearly upset a few forum princesses as well. Life goes on. I've been out of primary school for many years now. Said princesses are welcome to spend the amount of time I do providing nothing but purile ego driven rubbish to the forum if they think it makes them better people. :spew:
Perhaps I'll go take that (apparently either embarrassing, non-existent or poorly maintained) CV8 out for a drive in Melbourne's beautiful sunny weather now. :)

[Carby]

So, who would pay $10K more for a HSV with a DCT transmission?
(On the Mitsubishi its a $3K option compared to conventional manual, but as Davo points out HSV need to make a handsome earn)

I would :)

Who would consider switching camps to an F6 that offered this technology

I would :)

Any other takers? :eek:
or maybe its a just a dumb idea..... :lol:

Bingo - http://www.0-60mag.com/online/?p=2751
Davo, give them a call on the bat phone and tell them not to bother. Still plenty of profit to be made without this new fangled DCT stuff :cool:

This is proof you don't live in the real world - $10K more for a DCT set up? WTF for ? So you can go to work and tell the Bimmer DCT driver your HSV also also has DCT? Anyway old fashioned or not real drivers still prefer manuals.......:)

[Carby]

.

And I know why you're too afraid to post you're ride. :jester:

Who gives a flying f*ck if Davo posts his vehicle - are you going to insist everyone you don't agree with, show their ride on this forum?....This really is a childish line of thinking.

[Martin_D]

This is proof you don't live in the real world - $10K more for a DCT set up? WTF for ? So you can go to work and tell the Bimmer DCT driver your HSV also also has DCT? Anyway old fashioned or not real drivers still prefer manuals.......:)

Drive a DCT Carby, then come back to us :teach:
P.S. DCT IS a manual :)

[Mega76]

Wooo hooo good thread :popcorn::)

[Ghosn]

Perhaps I'll go take that (apparently either embarrassing, non-existent or poorly maintained) CV8 out for a drive in Melbourne's beautiful sunny weather now. :)

Don't stay out too long, you might burn that pale white skin of yours.

[planetdavo]

Drive a DCT Carby, then come back to us :teach:
P.S. DCT IS a manual :)

And can operate as an "auto" Tuna, plus I have driven more than one, so feel I can comment...:cool:
I find them a bit of an overhyped item personally. Sure the rifle bolt gearchanges might be great on a race track, but how often do most people's regular rides see a race track?
Considering most people buy auto's now, and a torque converter auto sh!ts all over a DCT in low speed take off driving (as most have to endure in their daily travels), they come across as more of a sales gimmick than a genuine advancement for most drivers.
Another way to look at it is to look at how most people drive their auto's with a sequential manual shift option. I consider this a valid comparison, as both are 2 pedal drivelines. Volkswagen also consider it valid, as they "reckon" the DCT will replace all their auto's eventually. VW Audi Group are, of course, the main company trying to convince the world of the DCT's merits.
Most rarely ever use the manual option, and just leave it in good old D. :)

[Ghia351]

No you are wrong, there are trolls in this thread and they don't have the balls to reveal themselves, I recognise their purile styles. There's nothing wrong liking Ford product, they have some really good stuff, but these guys have no time for anything else and will feed in packs. Maybe you can out the "hiding trolls"...anyway back on topic..if the speculation of a supercharged 5.0L Ford US sourced V8 for the FVP range comes to fruition, how would the HSV Boss react in countering that fact the "non-opposition" can match the power or better it in a more fuel efficient package at least, higher tech features or one which on paper says "5.0L vs 6.2L" and yet the outcome should favour the smaller engined product initially? Either way it'll only be in a few months when the product changes have to occur due to EuroIV.

[Carby]

Drive a DCT Carby, then come back to us :teach:
P.S. DCT IS a manual :)


Very cute Tuna - have a clutch that is foot operated?

[Martin_D]

And can operate as an "auto" Tuna, plus I have driven more than one, so feel I can comment...:cool:

Which have you driven?

[planetdavo]

Maybe you can out the "hiding trolls"...anyway back on topic..if the speculation of a supercharged 5.0L Ford US sourced V8 for the FVP range comes to fruition, how would the HSV Boss react in countering that fact the "non-opposition" can match the power or better it in a more fuel efficient package at least, higher tech features or one which on paper says "5.0L vs 6.2L" and yet the outcome should favour the smaller engined product initially? Either way it'll only be in a few months when the product changes have to occur due to EuroIV.

It's quite amazing how seriously some people have taken what is just another quote in a mountainous line of spin related quotes, just because of who the two companies are.
Very average thread this. Very average.

[planetdavo]

Which have you driven?

Products from the house I mentioned just before. :)

[macca33]

I think some of you blokes need to get a room....:train:

What does half the recent posts have to do with the topic anyway???

:closed: