The BEST OIL - Group 4 Synthetic

[pah]

Not all synthetic engine oils are Group 4 synthetic oils. Some are Group 3 oils. Group 3 oils are mineral oils that have been put through extra refining steps.

Viscosity improving additives are added to mineral based oils to produce a multi grade oil. When the viscosity improving additives are depleted through use, the engine oil no long resists thinning when the engine is hot. This leads to engine wear. How can you tell if an oil has heaps of viscosity improving additives? It has a wide multi grade range. For example, 0w 50.

Here’s a quote from an interesting web site:

Group IV (4) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and don't need Viscosity Additives . . . . In recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labelled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulphur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based . . . Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no Viscosity Imrpoving additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life


http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/index.html



PAH

[VYSHSV8]

Great write up there alot of people have been thinking that coz it says Synthetic it means good shit, its like people believing that HRT runs Mobil 1 :lol:

[pah]

Yeah - not all "synthetic" is Group 4 oil. Some is only Group 3.

Group 4 synthetic is the good stuff.



PAH

[feistl]

Thanks for the write up. I assume Mainlube oils are group 4?

Does it actually say on most bottles of oil? Would be nice to know when buying off the shelf as opposed to researching.

Cheers

[pah]

I think Mobil 1 is Group 4. Amsoil also makes a Group 4 synthetic. Amsoil does not appear to be very high profile. Don't think I've ever seen them in Repco or Supercheap stores.

You'd need to check carefully with the others. I've emailed one or two Oil Co's asking "is your oil Group 4?" The replies have not directly answered my question. The reply tends to be: "Our oil is full synthetic".

Here's a test. Email Mobil and ask if Mobil 1 is OK for extended drain intervals. Email the others and see what response you get. Responses may have something to do with Viscosity Improvers and their use or lack of use in Group 3 and Group 4 oils. Also their ability to perform with extended drain intervals.

I've got 3 bottles of the other brand on my shelf that I have to use up before I can swap to Mobil 1. Dang!!


PAH

[VZ_V8]

I emailled Castrol and asked about their Edge 10w60 and they said it is a Group IV Synthetic...

[TommyVTss]

I emailled Castrol and asked about their Edge 10w60 and they said it is a Group IV Synthetic...

ahh good news :)

[gmh308]

And group 5 PAG/ester based oils are even better I would guess. Though even more $$ and probably only used in extreme applications like aircraft turbines and industrial.

Another way to tell which are authentic G4's may be how low the price gets on specials. With Edge 5W30 at $30 on special, you gotta wonder........

[TommyVTss]

And group 5 PAG/ester based oils are even better I would guess. Though even more $$ and probably only used in extreme applications like aircraft turbines and industrial.

Another way to tell which are authentic G4's may be how low the price gets on specials. With Edge 5W30 at $30 on special, you gotta wonder........

weird isnt it,

but you never see edge 10 60 below 65 bux

tom

[gmh308]

weird isnt it,

but you never see edge 10 60 below 65 bux

tom

Good point exactly :).

[HEXEM]

Interesting point you bring up about how low the price drops during sale times on Castrol oils.

Not that I have noticed a whole lot, but I can't say I have ever seen the Mobil1 5w30 engine oil on sale under $80 for 5ltrs (maybe its all in the name?). Even Caltex Havoline and Valvoline synthetics maintain a relative high price...

The Mobil1 5w50 gets under $65 and the other oils like Motul, Redline, Royal Purple all seem to maintain a high $ value. Maybe it has something to do with the price they buy their bulk lots for?... However makes you think....

I have seen the Mobil1 5w30 selling for $92 for 5ltrs in some retail outlets atm. The cheapest I can buy it for is $75 per 5ltrs from the Mobil distributer here in Canberra. This is the oil I use in my car.

Cheers,
Phil

[WLDLS1]

no synthetic for me. ULX 110 10/30 Mineral oil does wonders.
and its green.

[pah]

And group 5 PAG/ester based oils are even better I would guess. Though even more $$ and probably only used in extreme applications like aircraft turbines and industrial.

Another way to tell which are authentic G4's may be how low the price gets on specials. With Edge 5W30 at $30 on special, you gotta wonder........

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE . . .

Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc.


http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/index.html


I just bought 3 x Mobil 1 bottles at $60 each at an Autobahn 20% off sale.

[PBoB]

I use Nulon 10W30, cause it's what Holden recommends. I couldn't give a stuff about grades, oils oil fellas.

Some people tell me that Penrite sludges up their motors, but then other people tell me it's great, I think it has a lot to do with the way the motor has been treated and maintained from new, and if you maintain consistency of oil choice then you won't have a problem.

[DukeZ]

sorry but gotta say penrite oil is poo and not worth the container its packaged in ive seen it blow bottom ends up in wrx's when i used to work in the wrx workshop it also turns sludgey and is just a shit oil imo

[pah]

I use Nulon 10W30, cause it's what Holden recommends.

I could not figure out why car makers specified such a narrow bandwidth (ie: 10w 30) until I read this article I first mentioned. It seemed to me that the wider the bandwidth, the better the oil.

I understand it to say that 10w represents the viscosity of the oil before the Viscosity Improvers are added. After these are added, the oil will perform up to the hotter temp (30 degrees in this case). In other words, the VI's thicken a thin oil if I have read the article correctly.

When the Viscosity Improvers break down, you're left with the thin oil. If you buy a 0w 50 oil, you now have a very thin oil probably not very good at protecting your engine when it is hot. If you've stuck with the factory spec 10w 30, you at least have a 10w weight oil. I guess the solution for mineral oil users is to change your oil frequently? But we all believe in frequent oil changes anyway.

If I've correctly understood the web article, Viscosity Improvers are not used in Group 4 oils. That probably explains why some (all?) are capable of extended drain intervals.



PAH

[saaz]

Oil talk gets confused due to the lack of honesty by the companies, mixed in with marketing hype. Anyone who also has a motorcycle would know it is even more confused due to the gearbox/clutch issue, and inflated prices paid for motorcycle specific oils.

If you haven't come across this before, search for the Paradise Garage extended oil test in an LS1. The main problem was oil thickening to be out of grade.

The local Kmart had a clearance on 1 litre bottles of Mobil 1 5W-50 - 5 cents!! They were all gone, probably to those not knowing what it was.

[gmh308]

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE . . .

Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc.


http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/index.html


I just bought 3 x Mobil 1 bottles at $60 each at an Autobahn 20% off sale.

:cool: :cool:

[gmh308]

I could not figure out why car makers specified such a narrow bandwidth (ie: 10w 30) until I read this article I first mentioned. It seemed to me that the wider the bandwidth, the better the oil.

I understand it to say that 10w represents the viscosity of the oil before the Viscosity Improvers are added. After these are added, the oil will perform up to the hotter temp (30 degrees in this case). In other words, the VI's thicken a thin oil if I have read the article correctly.

When the Viscosity Improvers break down, you're left with the thin oil. If you buy a 0w 50 oil, you now have a very thin oil probably not very good at protecting your engine when it is hot. If you've stuck with the factory spec 10w 30, you at least have a 10w weight oil. I guess the solution for mineral oil users is to change your oil frequently? But we all believe in frequent oil changes anyway.

If I've correctly understood the web article, Viscosity Improvers are not used in Group 4 oils. That probably explains why some (all?) are capable of extended drain intervals.



PAH

With the 10W30 or 20W50 etc, the 10W is the "Winter" rating of the oil.

Not so important in Oz, but in US/Europe very important with their typical sub zero temps in winter.

The W is how the oil behaves viscosity wise at the low end of the temp scale, whereas the 30 or the 50 rating is at 100C IIRC and if my memory is working today after too much ale last night...:) hic...

The oil is modified via viscosity improvers (mineral oil modified by polymers/synthetics) to stop the oil getting so thick at low temps, or so thin at high temps.

In simple terms the VI's change the slope of the viscosity curve.

Hence called a multigrade.

Synthetics have the VI's built in to the oil chemistry.

Synthetics also dont "die" at the low temps of mineral oils, and maintain solids in suspension vs sludging out.

i.e. mineral oils are on their way to oil heaven by 120C, whereas a good synthetic is ok towards 200C. M1 to 220C for short duration

Which is why GM (and BMW? etc) recommends synthetics for extended change intervals and the fact that they like to have their oil running at around coolant temp (oil cooler/warmer added to some '09+ cars) to keep it water free and thin/low friction, and to boil off things like water, in normal running, and lots higher than that if you get into some track work :).

Happy New Year y'all! :)

[feistl]

Rather than starting a new thread, thought i might post this here...

Is Valvoline Synpower SAE5W-0 Full Synthetic oil a proper group 4 oil?

If so, supercheap have it on special for 38.97 down from $59.95.

Seems like a good deal...

Cheers, Errol.

[ti0350]

sorry but gotta say penrite oil is poo and not worth the container its packaged in ive seen it blow bottom ends up in wrx's when i used to work in the wrx workshop it also turns sludgey and is just a shit oil imo

My mate has used penrite oil is his blown XY for 10 yrs and never had an issue with it.. I've never used it myself my car only ever gets Mobil 1..

[RUN41T]

Anyone want to comment on Royal purple? I run 10W-40 in the SS? Is this a grade IV???

[kitto57]

Been using Mobil 1 Super Synthetic 10w 30.. a little expensive.

[HEXEM]

I use Nulon 10W30, cause it's what Holden recommends.

Sixleeta,

Are you saying that Holden (as in the production plant) recommends it or its what your local dealer in Bris uses?

Cheers mate,

Phil

[HEXEM]

Been using Mobil 1 Super Synthetic 10w 30.. a little expensive.

Hmm, I am assuming that when you say Super Synthetic you mean "SuperSyn" written on the bottle? There used to be the old Mobil1 10w30 but it was superceeded with Mobil1 5w30 SuperSyn Newer Vehicle Formular.

Cheers

Phil

[kitto57]

Yeh it is Mobil1 10w30 "SuperSyn" Newer Vehicle Formular. in a fully gold container. Trying to find some online... they don't make it in 10w30 anymore? i can get some locally still but maybe its just the remaining stock..

[cams290]

posted link wouldn't work........post deleted

[Mohit]

Anyone want to comment on Royal purple? I run 10W-40 in the SS? Is this a grade IV???
Yes it's a Group IV oil and i run the same oil in my VYII SS as well. Best oil i've ever used.

[tuff304]

Anyone want to comment on Royal purple? I run 10W-40 in the SS? Is this a grade IV???

This oil is the best I've used to date, I would recommend this oil to any LSx owner.

[TommyVTss]

This oil is the best I've used to date, I would recommend this oil to any LSx owner.

what made it better over the oils you have used and what oils was that ?

tom

[tuff304]

what made it better over the oils you have used and what oils was that ?

tom

Hey Tom, so far I've used the following:

Mobil 1
Castrol GTX 3
Castrol Magnatec
Penrite Sin 10
Penrite Sin 5
Nulon 10W-40 (synthetic)

I found the RP was the quietest with my motor and the car definitely runs better with it.

I wanted to try Castrol Edge 10w-60 but after using RP and seeing an independent oil test done (article was in street commodores I think) RP was the second best oil.

[BECAUZ]

Anyone used Elf oils before?

About to get Elf Oil Excellium GP 10W-50 put in my car and have done a bit of research about it and from what i hear its a more efficient better protectant oil.

Its 100% fully synthetic but not a grade 4 or grade 3 oil. Instead its a POA oil with is an oil made from gas, which means it had no remains of any minerals such as dirt and rock.


Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.

[VTR8Clubby]

I wanted to try Castrol Edge 10w-60 but after using RP and seeing an independent oil test done (article was in street commodores I think) RP was the second best oil.

As already said, that oil test was severely flawed(I believe it was a test for grease not oil) and Street Commodores later confirmed that the test was flawed.

[Mohit]

As already said, that oil test was severely flawed(I believe it was a test for grease not oil) and Street Commodores later confirmed that the test was flawed.
Even if the test was flawed, i presume all of the oils would have been tested against the same incorrect parameters, making the test still valid against each of the oils?

Having said that, i'll continue to use Royal Purple 10w-40 as i've found it much better than the Mobil 1 stuff that was in the engine prior to the change over.

[VTR8Clubby]

Even if the test was flawed, i presume all of the oils would have been tested against the same incorrect parameters, making the test still valid against each of the oils?

Having said that, i'll continue to use Royal Purple 10w-40 as i've found it much better than the Mobil 1 stuff that was in the engine prior to the change over.

No, the test was completely invalid and in no way showed the performance of a particular oil in an engine.

[Mohit]

No, the test was completely invalid and in no way showed the performance of a particular oil in an engine.
I can't comment on the test as i'm no expert in oil testing. All i know is after using Mobil 1 and Royal Purple i'll keep using the latter.

[tuff304]

I can't comment on the test as i'm no expert in oil testing. All i know is after using Mobil 1 and Royal Purple i'll keep using the latter.

I have to agree with Mo, RP seems to have worked better in my car then Mobil 1

[Trough Lolly]

been using ELF full syn in my xr6 turbo for 3 years now, that stuffs magic and pretty bloody cheap in comparison to oils such as edge and motul

[John_sv8]

Hey Tom, so far I've used the following:

Mobil 1
Castrol GTX 3
Castrol Magnatec
Penrite Sin 10
Penrite Sin 5
Nulon 10W-40 (synthetic)

I found the RP was the quietest with my motor and the car definitely runs better with it.

I wanted to try Castrol Edge 10w-60 but after using RP and seeing an independent oil test done (article was in street commodores I think) RP was the second best oil.

How did you go with the Penrite Sin oils? i currently use Penrite 10w-50 but thinking of changing to the Penrite sin range on my next oil change?

[discopotato03]

Do a bit of research into the Mobil 1 Synthetic bike oils . It may interest you to know that at least in the pre E85 days HRT was using Mobil 1 Racing 4T 15W50 . A friend of mine used to work at a BMW motorcycle dealership in Sydney and found this out the hard way as HRT had priority over anyone else when buying in 44 gal/205L drums . If not much came in the dealership occasionally missed out ...

Long/short the bike Mobil 1 4T synthetic oil is available in three grades 10W40 5W50 and 20W50 which goes under the name "V-Twin" the 20W50 I mean .
They are all API Group 4 synthetic oils meaning the base stock is formed from ethylene gas and has no mineral oil content . An interesting point is that many motorbikes have their multi-plate wet clutch swimming in the engine oil so can't use some of the friction modifying additives found in lesser oils .
An important thing these three oils do have is a healthy dose of ZDDP or Zinc and Phosphorus which are you high point loading friction modifying additives .
You have to be careful with some car oils inc some M1 types because in recent years is the lowering of the ZDDP content from around 1300 PPM (parts per million) to about 6-700 PPM . Its to do with the Prius driving Green voting tree huggers legislating that Zinc and Phosphorus kills catalytic converters over time so we must do something about it ie nut the oil and not tell anyone ...
Why a bike oil ? Well super bikes give their oil a real caining , run high revs and often have high localised temps in some areas . The air cooled ones can have very uneven temps around the barrels and heads and work their oil hard . The Mobil V-Twin is higher in ZDDP and the one I would use in a really hard worked engine in a high state of tune ie big cams and heavy springs .
Think about a Bussa cranking out 170 Hp from 1300cc , this equates to a 6 litre engine cranking 785 Hp and a lot of heat .

Anyhow , yes API Group 3 oils are mineral oils that go through a hydrolysing or cracking process .
The thing is that mineral or crude based oils will have paraffin in them and need viscosity indexing additives in them to try to resist the paraffin "thickening" so to speak as its temperature drops .
True group 4 synthetics being a more uniform substance stay fluid to quite low temps and Mobil quotes around minus 50 degrees centigrade for these three oils .

Anyhow I use the 15W50 in a 4G63T an EA82T and an RB25DET , not cheap but good insurance IMO . You can buy it in 1 and 4L containers I believe though the V-Twin I think is measured in quarts or 950 mills . I think through Mobil distributors you can buy cartons of 6 1 litre or quart bottles cheaper than going through you local car parts joint .
The better bike shops may carry it and the Harley people may have the V-Twin one being often air cooled engines . The people I go through buy it in 44's and fill my 5L container when I need it .

Cheers A .

[nnickn]

I have been using 4T Racing for years in bikes and cars and have had good results. One of the cars is an old Cordia that has racked up 500,000 ks on the original motor, all hard miles. I have felt motors come alive so to speak with it. Not often that you can really feel the difference. BUT remember it is a race oil and as such do not expect it to last a long time. Change oil at 5000 ks max.

[Blown 454 AWD]

A happy blend of Group 4 & Group 5 is the go for the best performing POA's (group 4's)

As one shrinks seals and one expands seals, a predominantly Group 4 with Group 5 blend gives a nice neutral engine oil, with plenty TBN added (to give an alkalinity reserve) to combat (TAN) corrosion.

Mainlube still uses ZDDP as our Mainlube 175 Synthetic Race Oil SAE 10w60 is 90% used in modified engines, usually in race situations. The cam benefits most from this.

RP are still getting over BP/Castrol kicking their butts proving they couldn't live up to their advertising claims.

Your all pretty much on the right track. (brand names excluded)

Cheers

Steve

[aratic]

It would be good to know which brands claim they are fully synthetic but are actually made from group 3 base stocks...

Group IV
Mobil 1 SuperSyn (5W-30, 5W-50 etc)
Castrol Edge 10W-60
Royal Purple
Amsoil
etc

??

Valvoline Synpower
Penrite Sin
Nulon Fully Synthetic

[gmh308]

A happy blend of Group 4 & Group 5 is the go for the best performing POA's (group 4's)

As one shrinks seals and one expands seals, a predominantly Group 4 with Group 5 blend gives a nice neutral engine oil, with plenty TBN added (to give an alkalinity reserve) to combat (TAN) corrosion.

Mainlube still uses ZDDP as our Mainlube 175 Synthetic Race Oil SAE 10w60 is 90% used in modified engines, usually in race situations. The cam benefits most from this.
RP are still getting over BP/Castrol kicking their butts proving they couldn't live up to their advertising claims.

Your all pretty much on the right track. (brand names excluded)

Cheers

Steve

Flat tappet cams right? ;-)

Though RP's claims are only a tad worse than Castrol working to help ppl think that Edge 5W30 is equivalent to M1. :)

[GRUNTS]

i've just changed over to penrite sin15 full synthetic 15/50 done a couple of thousand kms and it seems good is anyone else using this oil and know what group it is

[SS04]

Anyone know where I can get Royal Purple in Adelaide to suit my VY II SS, been using Castrol Edge for the last 3000km and it just sounds" tappety" from day one ( Compared to the last oil it ran)

[HEXEM]

Anyone know where I can get Royal Purple in Adelaide to suit my VY II SS, been using Castrol Edge for the last 3000km and it just sounds" tappety" from day one ( Compared to the last oil it ran)


Autobarn:

Elizabeth (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/elizabeth)
19 Gillingham Road
(08) 8287 5777

Gilles Plains (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/gillesplains)
2/621-623 North East Road
(08) 8261 0000

Mile End (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/mileend)
37-43 Sir Donald Bradman Drive
(08) 8234 7344

Mount Barker (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/mountbarker)
Adelaide Hills Homemaker Centre 6 Dutton Road
(08) 8391 2355

Mt. Gambier (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/mtgambier)
92 Commercial Street West
(08) 8724 9111

Noarlunga (http://www.autobarn.com.au/store/noarlunga)
160-168 Beach Road
(08) 8186 6644

[SS04]

Hey thanks for that VE SSV

[ssv 427]

ive also been thinking giving royal purple a go, anyone used there oil filters also? comment on them if so guys cheers

shaun

[DR-vyss-108]

i was recommended penrite hpr30 by one of the most reputable lsx engine builders in the country, anyone know much about it?

[Fraser]

It would be good to know which brands claim they are fully synthetic but are actually made from group 3 base stocks...

Group IV
Mobil 1 SuperSyn (5W-30, 5W-50 etc)
Castrol Edge 10W-60
Royal Purple
Amsoil
etc

??

Valvoline Synpower
Penrite Sin
Nulon Fully Synthetic

Believe Royal Purple are petroleum base stocks, lots of zinc and phosphorus, good oil just not for extended drain intervals.

Royal Purple XPR oils are Group 5 ester base stocks. Only 1 refinery in US makes Group 5 oil.

[aratic]

Do LSx motors benefit from a higher ZDDP content oil?

[ssv 427]

well got my 3 thousand km service done today by my mechanic and got royal purple 10w/40 and a royal purple oil filter, and i can say the car feels great, alot smoother on start up and when its runnin, gonna go for a good cruise with the gf down the coast sunday so will give it a good run looking forward to it, all in all i would say its good stuff and ide definatly recommend it to anyone :yup:

[Toast]

Wanting to change over to Royal Purple 10W40.

Looking on their website there's SAE 10W40, HPS 10W40 and then XPR 10W40 - which one should I be using on a cammed LS1? The car is a daily and only gets a work out once a month at the track

[Hi Octane]

Royal purple works a treat in my subaru with forged pistons, even tho they only clapped for a few seconds when cold now you cant even hear the clap.

Ill be using RP in my ve next oil change.

[Blown 454 AWD]

O'll dig up an old thread