LPG-Liquid-Inject

[pah]

Hi Guys,

Anybody tried LPG-Liquid-Inject?

As I understand it, this type of LPG conversion offers benefits similar to Nitrous Oxide Injection. Injecting LPG liquid has a refrigerating effect condensing the incoming air as it enters the cylinders.

http://www.lpgli.com/features.html

Cheap fuel and extra power sounds good. Any guinea pigs (sorry Russell) out there able to report on this modification?




PAH

[HSV Listy]

There is a couple of mamoth threads open already with many results and pro and cons. Do a quick search and good luck.

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=96418&highlight=liquid+injection+supercharged

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=127869&highlight=liquid+injection+supercharged

Although it will be daunting for a person trying to find information.
Before the thread is closed just a quick summery I think

It may be a little one sided as I have the JTG LI LPG system on my car.
I like it, I circuit race with it and give it hell,
cheap fuel as mine is a daily driver too,
some complain of tad noisy pumps but mine are noisy on start but quieten down after a minute or so,
you can do NA, superchargers and more,
power can go beyond 400+rwkw without anything special bar a good fitter and tune.
THe guages can read a little inaccruate but there is a fix for that now,
on start up it takes about 1 minute to changeover from petrol to LPG but there is a mod that brigns this to 10 seconds.
Most have good experiances and like the system
Power is generally increaced 2-5% over petrol with the JTG system
Economy varies somewhat from within 5% on my car for example but some experiance up to 15-20% or more. Just depends if tuned to suit or not
There is a few different type of LI LPG systems and these have pro and cons too
HSV are bringing out a LI LPG next year

The JTG LI LPG also looks pretty good too in the engine bay. APS service centre did my install as well as the superchaged one below
Enjoy

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=126962&highlight=circuit+racing+GTS

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=129427&highlight=liquid+injection+supercharged

[blownba]

LPGLi is not available to the public yet.
This company has been promising a product ready for sale for the last 15 years that I know of.
It is a LPG only system so they remove nearly all your fuel system.

Have a look at what HSV listy has posted. Its a much better prospect.

If you wait for this product to become available u=you may be old and grey like the creator before you get it.

[nvous1]

on start up it takes about 1 minute to changeover from petrol to LPG but there is a mod that brigns this to 10 seconds.


I take it you return the vehicle to the installer for this mod and how much can I expect to pay?

[HARMSY]

It seems most people are pretty happy with their systems, the added fuel economy and POWER is a big tick in the box.....only thing you have to weigh up is how long you will be keeping your car for and whether you will break even on the install and then start to save money. I did the sums and going by what people have written about installation costs, $5000+ depending on who you go through, minus the Gov grant of $1700=$3300 out of pocket. it was going to take me about 18-24months to break even then start saving money, when and if the kits come down in price a bit i may re-think.

Harmsy

[amckiwi]

I do less than 10,000k's a year so break even will be a long tome for me if ever.

I am looking on it as a performance upgrade and doing a bit to save dino squeezings

Stu

[danielsan]

on start up it takes about 1 minute to changeover from petrol to LPG but there is a mod that brigns this to 10 seconds.


Unless APS and ALPGW are keeping secrets from us, the mod that i'm thinking of doesnt work on 2008 and newer ICU's. These ICU's have a minimum of a 55sec cutover, playing around where the DIP switches use to be increases the cutover time to 1 - 3mins.

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys,

I think the OP was asking about LPG-Liquid-Inject, as in www.lpgli.com (http://www.lpgli.com). These guys DO NOT have a working, commercialised system and until they do, all they're doing is leeching off of each of their competitors because apparently they hold a patent for liquid-phase LPG injection systems in Australia, making superior liquid injection technologies more expensive for EVERYONE. After nearly two decades' worth of development, they still do not have a working system. What a CROCK!

[CALDIR]

Hi

I thought their were allready LPGLI kits on the road now? For some reason I thought of some workshop in Rowville, Victoria was an agent for LPGLI and they had done a few cars allready?

Maybe the place was called ICES Performance Centre? And the product line also had another name like Orbital Lpg? I don't have all the info anymore as I lost my data in a hard drive crash recently.

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

[HARMSY]

Guys,

I think the OP was asking about LPG-Liquid-Inject, as in www.lpgli.com (http://www.lpgli.com). These guys DO NOT have a working, commercialised system and until they do, all they're doing is leeching off of each of their competitors because apparently they hold a patent for liquid-phase LPG injection systems in Australia, making superior liquid injection technologies more expensive for EVERYONE. After nearly two decades' worth of development, they still do not have a working system. What a CROCK!


Didn't realise, thought it was the same thing......

What are the differences between this system and the systems that APS and alike offer??

[PoweredByCNG]

What are the differences between this system and the systems that APS and alike offer??

Maybe the fact that the system available at APS (ICOM JTG) is freely available and has been proven itself whereas the LPG-Liquid Inject "system" is still a pipe-dream?

[HARMSY]

Maybe the fact that the system available at APS (ICOM JTG) is freely available and has been proven itself whereas the LPG-Liquid Inject "system" is still a pipe-dream?

Yeah but what is the difference they are claiming to offer?? Both liquid injection systems I assume, what is this un-proven mob try to claim that the has caused them to be unable to deliver??

[PoweredByCNG]

what is this un-proven mob try to claim that the has caused them to be unable to deliver??

Nobody has heard anything and I am not willing to speculate. There are two liquid injection systems currently available in Australia - ICOM JTG distributed by the Australian LPG Warehouse and Vialle distributed by Orbital Autogas Product with a third system on the way distributed by Alternative Fuel Innovations / Parnell.

[LuisS]

Found this article on carsguide.com.au , pretty interesting + a couple of big statements...


Performance buyers do not really want it ( what ! who doesn't want performance AND economy?) , but HSV’s first-ever LPG-powered performance sedan will hit the road early next year.

The company’s managing director, Phil Harding, admits some work still needs to be done to convince HSV dealers and customers to get onside with a dual-fuel LPG HSV. I am doing this program without solid customer demand, Harding says. My philosophy is that we have to have this in the cupboard.

Related CoverageHSV massive model changeHSV E Series II focus on fuelHSV SV90 1990-1991: buyers guideHSV Clubsport VY/VY II 2002-2004: buyers guideHSV W427 won’t be lastFirst drive: Walkinshaw Performance HSV Clubsport
Harding says the LPG car is one of a range of initiatives being looked at by the company as the drive for fuel economy and lower emissions builds momentum. "We have been looking at a range of alternative powertrain solutions to complement our existing range, including LPG, diesel and E85," he says. "There hasn't been much we haven't studied in detail."

Despite a dual-fuel LPG car emerging as a HSV priority, the company's own research shows that fuel economy is not a high priority among its buyers. Harding says the 6.2-litre V8 LPI — liquid propane injection — sedan and ute will have all the driving attributes and performance of a petrol car.

Most people would not know that it is an LPI car, he says. Under full throttle the car accelerates on petrol. ( what ! ) HSV has sent three test cars for cold weather testing in recent weeks and the reports back from the engineering team are encouraging, Harding says. Engines are also undergoing durability testing.

If all goes well, HSV expects to have the LPI car in dealers in the first quarter of 2010. "That's a little later than I planned but it's still an exciting program," Harding says. "We are very excited about the potential for high performance LPG-powered HSV."

Harding says the LPI sedan will have a fully trimmed boot with the LPG tank hard up against the rear seat. In the ute, the tank will be set into the load bay. Harding says he is very excited about the potential for high-performance LPG-powered car after HSV bypassed a turbo-diesel engine. The diesel fell over because the profit returns could not be generated from the investment required.

HSV has been working hard to make sure the LPI HSV has comparable performance to a conventional petrol engine. Acceleration is as quick as the petrol-only car.( should be , if it's switching back to petrol ! ) Harding says the payback for an HSV LPI owner would be 12 months. We have not set a price but we are not going to subsidise it, Harding says.


.....gotta love JTG ;)

[PoweredByCNG]

APS Luis, as I have said elsewhere, the Orbital engineers have informed me that their system is fully capable of running the LS3 all the way to redline on LPG. One of the side-effects is increased power to levels beyond the stated tolerances of the transmission. That's why Orbital capped the operation of the HSV LPI to 5300rpm.

[CALDIR]

Hi

Is the Orbital system also www.lpgli.com

Can the 5300rpm limit be easily changed or is it fixed/permanent?

Does the lpgli system make that increased power when using petrol under hard accelearation or solely lpg?

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

[ratter]

I have read, but have no factual information that the orbital system switches back to petrol at high rpm and will not be able to be programmed after the instalation.

[CALDIR]

Hi

Thats the rumour I heard as well was that the new HSV lpg kit runs on petrol under hard acceleration and is why I posted my questions to see how they got this awesome extra power and had to limit it to 5300rpm.

HSV claim the car actually makes exact same power and the driver wont be able to tell the difference. So I am assuming what is been developed is not going to be released as HSV may want to make the car the same as it is on petrol.

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

[dmenace]

Guys,

I just wanted to know if you can run a Injected setup on a Factory Supercharged V6? Your responses would be appreciated.

[ls2 cruiser]

Dmenace, yes I dont see why not. pm APS and ask them.

[PoweredByCNG]

Is the Orbital system also www.lpgli.com (http://www.lpgli.com)

NO it is not the same. The Orbital system was developed in the Netherlands by Vialle, the same mob that supplies Ford with their current E-GAS equipment.


Can the 5300rpm limit be easily changed or is it fixed/permanent?

Not changeable. The calibration software requires a key supplied by Orbital / Vialle in order to change the calibration and not even gas fitters are allowed access to this.


Does the lpgli system make that increased power when using petrol under hard accelearation or solely lpg?

The LPI system is does not inject LPG into the engine under petrol switchback conditions. The engine will have increased responsiveness only when the LPI system is active, and only at 5300rpm or below.

[PoweredByCNG]

Thats the rumour I heard as well was that the new HSV lpg kit runs on petrol under hard acceleration and is why I posted my questions to see how they got this awesome extra power and had to limit it to 5300rpm.

Basically there are two reasons why Orbital have limited the LPI system to 5300rpm.

Firstly, there's the component tolerances factor. The significant power and torque increases may put undue stress on engine and transmission components that are only designed to cope with the power than the original petrol engine churns out. Unlike other aftermarket LPG equipment manufacturers, Orbital must work with OEMs to provide suitable calibrations in order to guarantee the lifespan of all components affected.

Secondly, political correctness means that any power increases over petrol would not be beneficial for HSV considering their client base. IMO, most car enthusiasts (HSV's target audience) would not want to see an LPG car that makes more power than petrol, even though we know it is technically possible and the technology is available to do so TODAY.

[LuisS]

Basically there are two reasons why Orbital have limited the LPI system to 5300rpm.

Firstly, there's the component tolerances factor. The significant power and torque increases may put undue stress on engine and transmission components that are only designed to cope with the power than the original petrol engine churns out. Unlike other aftermarket LPG equipment manufacturers, Orbital must work with OEMs to provide suitable calibrations in order to guarantee the lifespan of all components affected.

Secondly, political correctness means that any power increases over petrol would not be beneficial for HSV considering their client base. IMO, most car enthusiasts (HSV's target audience) would not want to see an LPG car that makes more power than petrol, even though we know it is technically possible and the technology is available to do so TODAY.


Hmmmmm, without stirring the pot too much, tell me 1 HSV owner that would not like to see a "350" badge on the boot lid rather than 325??....who cares what fuel it runs on !

p.s. LPG LI will only gain approx 15-20 RWKW max .

If this is the company policy, I wonder how Patterson Cheney get away with their "warranteed" RS 327 , 350 , 400 and 454 models ??

[PoweredByCNG]

Hmmmmm, without stirring the pot too much, tell me 1 HSV owner that would not like to see a "350" badge on the boot lid rather than 325??....who cares what fuel it runs on !

It works a little bit differently when there's a different (and perceived inferior) fuel involved. As much as I'd like to see a company like Holden/HSV release an LPI car that makes more power on LPG than petrol, it probably won't ever happen because the average Joe would lose confidence in them as a manufacturer. Speak to pretty much anyone on the street about LPG cars and they wouldn't have a clue.