DCT gearbox for Holden...will it ever happen?

[Uncle Tone]

I'm starting to think about my next car purchase. I do love the GTS, but of late I've been getting out and driving some interesting vehicles, such as Audis, VW's and the like. The Passat R36 and CC with the 3.2 V6 and DCT gearboxes are standouts for me....bit down on power, but for the price a bloody good car. That gearbox is an absolute gem. I took a little Audi A4 for a squirt too with the DSC and that was a hoot. The car is so much fun to drive with this type of gearbox its amazing....I recommend anyone that hasn't tried a DCT gearbox to go for a spin in a car with one. The change gears in a blink, they blip on downshifts, and yet they are smooth as silk when in auto mode. My next car has to have one of these!! :bow:

Which is a problem :bawl:

How long before Holden embrace this technology? I would love a DCT gearbox in a GTS, and would buy another in a flash if so equipped. I'm completely over the self shifting, but don't want a torque converter type auto either. After 8 years of HSV's exclusively, I'm thinking of switching camps because of the gearbox. Believe me, an R36 Passat with a standard manual wouldn't have raised an eyebrow....but chuck in this DCT gearbox and the car has another dimension added to it. Try one if you can.

[Wonky]

I'd absolutely love one, though quite expensive plus apparently a fortune to repair!!

[Northy]

I had an order in for an R36, After waiting 9 months and then have them stuff up the order I wasn't going to wait for another one to come from germany. During this time I did alot of research into extracting more power from it and also into the workings of the DSG. Replacement cost from VW $9,000. Keep in mind thats a gearbox for a 3.6L V6. So imagine the cost of somthing to go behind a 6.2L V8. I think this bit of gear is just far to exspensive to put into a holden at this stage of the game.

Corey

[Martin_D]

DCT transmissions certainly are 'all that'. The high replacement costs being quoted are exactly that, costs for replacing entire transaxles or transmission assemblies....for the GTR its around $25K USD for a new transaxle should the car need one. Thankfully there are companies and parts around now to repair these transmissions cheaply and simply. The reality is they are very reliable, as the synchro crunching human is taken out of the shift equation. Go drive an Evo X Tone if you want to experience a trick DCT :)

[Evman]

Holden wont be using them before other major GM companies. Looks like a looooong way off still UT. The R36 would be a very nice car but has that grandparent feel about it. Audi FTW mate

[benniemc]

Just looked up on wikipedia WTF you were talking about, as I had no idea what a DCT was!

Anyway, they have a bit on GM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission#General_Motors


General Motors

In the company's restructuring plan, it revealed that dry dual clutch transmission would be available in 2012 calendar year.

http://wot.motortrend.com/6475908/auto-news/gm-restructuring-plan-reveals-cts-coupe-dual-clutch-gearbox-26-hybrids-by-2014/index.html

[pro-logic]

I would like to see holden offer a CVT. Probably with the not-hsv range. CVTs to handle the power of the SIDI are available - subaru has one - and they are a superior gearbox - in terms of shift ratios - to everything that's available. They can just keep the car at optimum fuel saving RPM all the time.

[VYBerlinaV8]

ahem...COST...ahem...

[FlatfootV8]

I would like to see holden offer a CVT. Probably with the not-hsv range. CVTs to handle the power of the SIDI are available - subaru has one - and they are a superior gearbox - in terms of shift ratios - to everything that's available. They can just keep the car at optimum fuel saving RPM all the time.

Ive driven a new Maxima with the CVT transmission I was not all that impressed with it the car made more noise than any real acceleration.

[WKGrange]

I've driven an R36 and the gearbox is brilliant, its amazing what a difference the gearbox makes to the overall driving experience. This gearbox makes my 4sp auto in the Grange fell like something shimano make for my pushbike (clunky).

[Evman]

ahem...COST...ahem...

Yeah I know. I bet if one was offered for a 10k premium (which would be realistic IMO going off the replacement cost for the GTR box that Tuna mentioned) everyone would bitch and complain.

[GMHVNSS]

ahem...COST...ahem...

Don't Kia run a version of CVT transmissions in some of their range, obviously small engines but the technology can be that expensive.

[Martin_D]

CVT is rubbish comparitively and has problems with power and torque handling.
DCT is the go, and that Nissan price, well thats quite expensive...however it is a complete transaxle including rear differential assembly, clutch packs etc. Go price a new Tremec/Auto, New Clutch Assy, and new rear Diff Assy from HSV as a spare part and get a shock!

Also the Aichi/Borg Warner GR6Z30A Twin Clutch used in the GTR is good for around 500awkw from a power load point of view. Plenty of GTRs in the 10s on stock clutches and transmission internals. Well strong enough for a production HSV - ie. power and torque handling isnt an issue :)

[GODSMACK]

Don't Kia run a version of CVT transmissions in some of their range, obviously small engines but the technology can be that expensive.

I thought Kia had CVVT, something about the valve timning? Im more than likely very wrong,.....

[iloveholden]

I get the feeling it'd be great for a while and then i'd get bored like a normal auto and wish i had a proper manual again.

When watching car review shows, like Top Gear, they always mention when they real nice cars that have a proper manual gearbox and how much more fun it is to drive, "Ferrari, are you listening?" rings a bell :lol:

[VYBerlinaV8]

Don't Kia run a version of CVT transmissions in some of their range, obviously small engines but the technology can be that expensive.

I had a Mitsubishi Outlander 4 cyl with CVT to drive for a week a couple of year ago. It was horrible.

[planetdavo]

A (low torque 4 cyl model) VW DSG gearbox costs $20,000 to replace. A (high torque 6 speed auto) 6L80E costs about $7000 (plus labour) to replace, brand new. Anyone see a problem at the moment?
I'm tipping it will be a while yet, but who knows. In 10 years time, DCT/DSG gearboxes might be out of fashion, and something else better/cheaper/more reliable/cheaper to fix has come along. Sequential shift manual boxes were the previous "greatest thing" around, and not that many years ago either. Where are they now? CVT's were also "supposed" to fix many issues with torque converter auto's, but some models are reverting back to traditional auto's. I believe Mercedes now has an auto that uses an automated clutch rather than a torque converter, and it's supposed to be a great unit.

[Martin_D]

Mercedes new SLS Supercar -
"Standard transmission is AMG SPEEDSHIFT DCT 7-speed Getrag dual-clutch semi-automatic transmission through a lightweight carbon fiber driveshaft. Selectable driving modes include "C" (Controlled Efficiency), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) or "M" (Manual)."

[Martin_D]

R36 is a good unit Tone, they tune up lovely too as the direct injection six simply blows anything else in its class away for refinement and turbine smooth delivery :)
Problem is they rid like a buckboard, and have annoying torque management on the shifts that makes the car splutter a bit :cool:

[planetdavo]

Mercedes new SLS Supercar -
"Standard transmission is AMG SPEEDSHIFT DCT 7-speed Getrag dual-clutch semi-automatic transmission through a lightweight carbon fiber driveshaft. Selectable driving modes include "C" (Controlled Efficiency), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) or "M" (Manual)."

I understand you are a fanboy of the DCT Tuna, but you do tend to operate on a plane well above the "common folk" that actually buy Holden's.
Perhaps you need to drop your level back down to where the common folk on this forum live a bit more often, before you fully lose touch with us all...:teach:

[planetdavo]

Mercedes new SLS Supercar -


Think it was this ZF I'm thinking of...:)

http://www.gizmag.com/go/7188/

In particular...
"The equipment options offered with the new automatic 8-speed transmission for passenger car driveline technology are trend-setting. The new transmission has been designed in such a way that it can serve as a modular system for further starting and all-wheel concepts without changing the basic transmission concept. This way, a torque converter could be replaced by new clutches or could be omitted completely when an integrated starting clutch is used."

[Martin_D]

Exactly the cars for the Davo set (think: stock is very well fast enough my boy!) can retain the slippery smooth slushbox. The cars for 'enthusiasts' that actually drive their cars hard and enjoy them get the DCT.

Mitsubishi do it - they offer an auto on the cooking model Lancers to keep the reps and A-B crowd happy, and a Dual Clutch Getrag on the Evo for the track mentals :bow:
When HSV builds something thats track focussed and sharp, they may well do the same...my advice is to put some money from their LED lamps into the trans :cool:

[BENN0]

Think it was this ZF I'm thinking of...:)

http://www.gizmag.com/go/7188/

In particular...
"The equipment options offered with the new automatic 8-speed transmission for passenger car driveline technology are trend-setting. The new transmission has been designed in such a way that it can serve as a modular system for further starting and all-wheel concepts without changing the basic transmission concept. This way, a torque converter could be replaced by new clutches or could be omitted completely when an integrated starting clutch is used."

CVT development is dead.

The 8HP box is in the new 7 Series BMW's, 7DT in the Porsche Panamera.
My tip would be Ford AUS first getting on the bandwagon with DC boxes.....

Dont think of DC trans' as sluggish autos. Think of them like a manual with the clutch and shifting looked after by the box itself. When they eventually become avail in AUS made cars and Tuna can play with the shift speed so they can chirp thirds you will all be in love! All while using less fuel than the MANUAL alternative.

[Martin_D]

Good news for the dyno queens too is that a DCT will read the same grunt as a manual at the wheels, with no big slip factor through the transmission, and no 30rwkw variance between models :)
Something tells me Benn0 might in fact know what he is on about there - in fact I know he is :cool:

[mrtockley]

I'd be happy if Holden got a decent auto let alone a DCT ..

DCT's aren't going anywhere, they are here to stay as they are superior to conventional auto's, and offer better economy than manuals, and you get the best of both worlds. I've driven the Evo X SST and it was amazing! Have a blast flicking the paddles, and when you hit stop start traffic, you can switch it over to become a normal auto.

[Martin_D]

The EVO is the perfect example. The 'auto only' missus can drive it down the shops and pick the kids up from school, you can also use it on a track day as a full manual. Two cars now become one :)

Like you point out tockley you need to drive one to understand, which is why I could argue here with Davo till we are both even older and sillier. Driving is where its at, tell then its only words on the blue screen :cool:

Thank god Davo is intepreting parts at FTG Holden, and not making decisions for the model life cycle....I can tell he isnt as we dont have a Tri-Matic option in the VE. Good enough for Dad, good enough for me :lol:

[BENN0]

Good news for the dyno queens too is that a DCT will read the same grunt as a manual at the wheels, with no big slip factor through the transmission, and no 30rwkw variance between models :)
Something tells me Benn0 might in fact know what he is on about there - in fact I know he is :cool:

:)
Im a manual box guy, but I would swap over to a DCT trans in a heartbeat (In the right car of course). The tuning options are almost endless. Shift points, shift speed, automatic throttle blips on down shifts when going hard, launch control, and more efficient than all other alternatives.....

[planetdavo]

Exactly the cars for the Davo set (think: stock is very well fast enough my boy!) can retain the slippery smooth slushbox. The cars for 'enthusiasts' that actually drive their cars hard and enjoy them get the DCT.

Mitsubishi do it - they offer an auto on the cooking model Lancers to keep the reps and A-B crowd happy, and a Dual Clutch Getrag on the Evo for the track mentals :bow:
When HSV builds something thats track focussed and sharp, they may well do the same...my advice is to put some money from their LED lamps into the trans :cool:


Tuna's cheapest turbo AWD with a DCT sh!tter must be, oh, about $70K, heading up toward $200K for the "better" part of the garage.
He's definitely in touch "with us". :lmao:

[Martin_D]

$63K for the Evo X with SST (DCT) Davo......bout the same price as an entry level HSV, and you get AWD, active diffs, DCT, turbocharging, all thrown in for free :)

Dont play the value and the 'us' crowd Davo, listen to your customers (the other posters) most of who actually own HSVs. They want to embrace some new, cool, and effective technology, and so they should its 2010 :cool:
Imagine the cool Microfiche slides you will get to study with DCT parts on them, gotta be some threads in that :bow:

Furthermore if you cant afford to upgrade your car and resent people that can then - stop posting on the internet and get a better job :teach:
There is nothing wrong with a CV8 though, nice ride...dunno about the Epica diesel but, I drove one over Xmas and nearly puked :eek:

[planetdavo]

I see this thread has gone down exactly the same path as the other DCT thread only a week or so ago. That one was of course CLOSED, thanks in part to the contributions of "Holden enthusiust" :rofl: Street Tuna telling everyone how dumb they are for putting up with Holden's sh!t cars...:spew:
Lesson for everyone in the real world.
Most Holden and HSV buyers purchase auto cars, not manuals. The last thing they want to do is change gears, even with the manual shift function. That makes the rifle shift ability of DCT cars nothing more than an expensive gimmick.
Most buyers will never go anywhere near a race track, bar the stands on the "other" side of the fence.
Most people do little more than change an exhaust on their cars.
That would make the hardcore minority just that, a minority in the car buying world.
Sorry to say it, but forums are full of "minority" elements. Feel free to get sucked in by Tuna's baiting you all into a frenzy, over what will simply jack up the RRP considerably for the 85th percentile buyer...:spew:
DCT might happen for Holden, but plenty of people are happy with their traditional manual or auto cars, and I don't believe HSV is particularly suffering a lack of desirablility out there in the heartland that they must have one. :)

[planetdavo]

Furthermore if you cant afford to upgrade your car and resent people that can then - stop posting on the internet and get a better job :teach:
There is nothing wrong with a CV8 though, nice ride...dunno about the Epica diesel but, I drove one over Xmas and nearly puked :eek:

You might be surprised at what I can actually afford, but at least I still own a product from, and work for, a company that this forum is actually all about.
I believe that would be why most people joined this forum, rather than the Ford trolls and the odd professional stirrer with nothing better to do with their spare time...:)

[mac06]

I wouldn't be surprised if DCT slowly made it's way into run of the mill cars, making it cheaper to buy as time goes on. It's no different to direct injection. More and more cars will have it and have to have it for manufacturers to survive.

Think plasma TV's 5 years ago and the price they cost then. Now look at the cost. About a quarter of the price. No different with engine and gearbox technology.

[planetdavo]

I wouldn't be surprised if DCT slowly made it's way into run of the mill cars, making it cheaper to buy as time goes on. It's no different to direct injection. More and more cars will have it and have to have it for manufacturers to survive.

Think plasma TV's 5 years ago and the price they cost then. Now look at the cost. About a quarter of the price. No different with engine and gearbox technology.

Exactly, and it's the point one poster in particular seems to have trouble understanding. :confused:
Holden will not have it until an affordable option is released within the global GM empire. Holden is a common person mainstream brand, not a high priced specialty brand that can pull off high RRP's due to exclusivity or a European heritage.

[mrtockley]

Exactly, and it's the point one poster in particular seems to have trouble understanding. :confused:
Holden will not have it until an affordable option is released within the global GM empire. Holden is a common person mainstream brand, not a high priced specialty brand that can pull off high RRP's due to exclusivity or a European heritage.

That's fair enough Davo, but Ford is also a mainstream brand and they've got together with Getrag and will be releasing a DCT in the Focus next year and will be releasing DCT into it's north American line up as of this year ..

If we follow GM's tendency not to share tech with it's poor Australian cousin until they've had it for years (read: AFM and SIDI) then Holden / HSV should have DCT by 2016 ..

[planetdavo]

That's fair enough Davo, but Ford is also a mainstream brand and they've got together with Getrag and will be releasing a DCT in the Focus next year and will be releasing DCT into it's north American line up as of this year ..

Any high torque applications in there, as in 500Nm plus?

[mac06]

Exactly, and it's the point one poster in particular seems to have trouble understanding. :confused:
Holden will not have it until an affordable option is released within the global GM empire. Holden is a common person mainstream brand, not a high priced specialty brand that can pull off high RRP's due to exclusivity or a European heritage.

Well if the earlier article quoting GM's restructuring plan is acurate then we could see them as early as 2012. That would be interesting to see how they go with cost and which models would be affected.


New to our ears was the mention of a dry dual-clutch transmission, due for full development in CY2012. No further details on the transmission were disclosed.

[steve_t]

The EVO is the perfect example. The 'auto only' missus can drive it down the shops and pick the kids up from school, you can also use it on a track day as a full manual. Two cars now become one :)


Hmmm... I don't know if I want my missus to be able to drive my car :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[mrtockley]

Any high torque applications in there, as in 500Nm plus?

Not sure mate, but Getrag make pretty decent gear ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG#Transmission

Note - I'm not making comparisons to AMG / Merc, simply that companies like Getrag make DCT's that can cope with 650 Nm of torque.

[planetdavo]

Well if the earlier article quoting GM's restructuring plan is acurate then we could see them as early as 2012. That would be interesting to see how they go with cost and which models would be affected.

That would be at least 2 years away of course, and quite near the end of the VE platform's model life.
Some people are talking right now. Have a look at what high powered models use DCT boxes in over 500Nm applications. Are any under $150,000?
I think some members are a little confused about what I've been saying. I've never said Holden or HSV models wont get one at some point. I've simply said that this style box is rather expensive for a Holden/HSV application at this time, especially when you consider the recent success of HSV, the fact most buyers buy auto's, and the fact most buyers don't see a track, where the main benefit of a DCT is found. Hence, what seriously is the big rush to Holden or HSV? It's a very importance point to understand.

[planetdavo]

Not sure mate, but Getrag make pretty decent gear ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG#Transmission

Note - I'm not making comparisons to AMG / Merc, simply that companies like Getrag make DCT's that can cope with 650 Nm of torque.

COST, COST and COST.
A recurring theme that is rather important...

[mrtockley]

COST, COST and COST.
A recurring theme that is rather important...

True but once upon a time, a ZF was only ever seen in a BMW, Jag etc ..

GM should give up building their dodgy auto's and leave it to proper transmission builders. Bring on the sweet ZF 6 speeds, and that should tie over the faithful for another 2 years or so until DCT becomes more affordable..

[planetdavo]

True but once upon a time, a ZF was only ever seen in a BMW, Jag etc ..

GM should give up building their dodgy auto's and leave it to proper transmission builders. Bring on the sweet ZF 6 speeds, and that should tie over the faithful for another 2 years or so until DCT becomes more affordable..

If Jaguar, being owned by Ford at the time, had never sourced this box, do you believe Falcon would have ever received a (still expensive) ZF 6 speed auto?
Ford now, of course, no longer own Jaguar...

[Party Pete]

The point Davo is why is GM Drivetrains, part of what was up until a couple of years ago the largest car maker in the world, unable to produce a gearbox to match the best in the world? Could it be that the reason GM internationally is in so much trouble financially is that they can't/won't produce products up to the same standard as others and constantly claims it's all about costs?

[Evman]

The point Davo is why is GM Drivetrains, part of what was up until a couple of years ago the largest car maker in the world, unable to produce a gearbox to match the best in the world? Could it be that the reason GM internationally is in so much trouble financially is that they can't/won't produce products up to the same standard as others and constantly claims it's all about costs?

Probably because most of GM's products can't absorb the costs :weirdo: Yeah a 25k gearbox/transaxle assembly might be top notch and absolutely terrific to drive, but would you pay the extra 20k on top of a Commodore to have it? No.

[Party Pete]

Are you saying that a manufacturer which sold more cars in the world than any other manufacturer couldn't absorb the cost of engineering stuff properly while much smaller manufacturers could? I am not suggesting that Holden was ever in a position to develop a decent gearbox but if GM couldn't then no-one should have been able to either. The tragedy in all of this is that within the GM empire this stuff should have been produced first not last. I suggest that the reason why they are no longer the biggest manufacturer in the world is that they were too stupid and short sighted to spend the money needed to develop competitive products and people stopped wanting to buy their cars.

[mrtockley]

If Jaguar, being owned by Ford at the time, had never sourced this box, do you believe Falcon would have ever received a (still expensive) ZF 6 speed auto?
Ford now, of course, no longer own Jaguar...

A) who cares who sourced the box. The simple fact is, it's available in a sub 50k car.

B) GM don't own any other car manufacturers that can source a decent auto ?

[Party Pete]

There was a time a few decades ago when GM Powertrains supplied gearboxes to prestige brands. Rolls Royce springs to mind for starters. Sad days indeed if they need someone else to make a gearbox suitable for a Commodore for them.

[Evman]

Are you saying that a manufacturer which sold more cars in the world than any other manufacturer couldn't absorb the cost of engineering stuff properly while much smaller manufacturers could? I am not suggesting that Holden was ever in a position to develop a decent gearbox but if GM couldn't then no-one should have been able to either. The tragedy in all of this is that within the GM empire this stuff should have been produced first not last. I suggest that the reason why they are no longer the biggest manufacturer in the world is that they were too stupid and short sighted to spend the money needed to develop competitive products and people stopped wanting to buy their cars.

No you're right. GM should be building 400km/h cars because Bugatti can and they're a really small company. GM sell hundreds of times more vehicles than Bugatti so it will also be hundreds of times cheaper!

It doesn't work like that. Obviously. So yes, that is what I'm saying. Do you really think that if GM put an LS9 in every car then the cost of the motor would be a fraction of what it is now?

[mrtockley]

There was a time a few decades ago when GM Powertrains supplied gearboxes to prestige brands. Rolls Royce springs to mind for starters. Sad days indeed if they need someone else to make a gearbox suitable for a Commodore for them.

That was most likely before there was an abundance of quality transmission builders available ..

Even the Ferrari Italia 458 outsources their transmissions now.

[Party Pete]

No you're right. GM should be building 400km/h cars because Bugatti can and they're a really small company. GM sell hundreds of times more vehicles than GM so it will also be hundreds of times cheaper!

It doesn't work like that. Obviously. So yes, that is what I'm saying. Do you really think that if GM put an LS9 in every car then the cost of the motor would be a fraction of the cost?

Fair enough. I accept therefore that we should all except mediocre products using the great excuse that they can't afford to build better. Sorry, but Ford can build the Australian only Falcon and afford to put in the ZF 6 speed. Oh, and they are sold for a cheaper price too. I could guess that they don't sell them at a loss so clearly there is enough room within their pricing to afford a better gearbox.

Everything is built to a price point and it is irrelevant to point to a hyper car and say GM isn't trying to compete with them. The fact is that GM hasn't even been producing products in the US to compete with Toyota. While we are at it, Saab can't build cars up to the standard of Volvo or Volkswagen and Vauxhall can't build cars up to the standard of Ford UK. The common denominator here is a corporate culture which has been around for decades which values penny pinching to try to improve short term profits over constantly improving the product to keep it ahead of the competition. They are broke because they deserve it. The point here isn't to rake over GM's international failures, but to highlight that Holden will go the same way if it keeps using it's price as an excuse for substandard product. Most people will not consider Holden's internal cost accounting methods when products which cost less offer more.

[mrtockley]

No you're right. GM should be building 400km/h cars because Bugatti can and they're a really small company. GM sell hundreds of times more vehicles than Bugatti so it will also be hundreds of times cheaper!

It doesn't work like that. Obviously. So yes, that is what I'm saying. Do you really think that if GM put an LS9 in every car then the cost of the motor would be a fraction of what it is now?


Fair enough. I accept therefore that we should all except mediocre products using the great excuse that they can't afford to build better. Sorry, but Ford can build the Australian only Falcon and afford to put in the ZF 6 speed. Oh, and they are sold for a cheaper price too. I could guess that they don't sell them at a loss so clearly there is enough room within their pricing to afford a better gearbox.

Everything is built to a price point and it is irrelevant to point to a hyper car and say GM isn't trying to compete with them. The fact is that GM hasn't even been producing products in the US to compete with Toyota. While we are at it, Saab can't build cars up to the standard of Volvo or Volkswagen and Vauxhall can't build cars up to the standard of Ford UK. The common denominator here is a corporate culture which has been around for decades which values penny pinching to try to improve short term profits over constantly improving the product to keep it ahead of the competition. They are broke because they deserve it. The point here isn't to rake over GM's international failures, but to highlight that Holden will go the same way if it keeps using it's price as an excuse for substandard product. Most people will not consider Holden's internal cost accounting methods when products which cost less offer more.

Slap ! .....

[Evman]

FFS I can't stand people like you mate. Want want want but if there's a price hike then it's bitch bitch bitch. Ford pays more for the ZF. It's well known. Holden have obviously done their budget differently for the VE. Open your eyes and see the world for what it is rather than what you want to see. Quality costs money. If you want quality EVERYWHERE and in EVERYTHING then open your wallet and be prepared to have it emptied. While you're at it tell that to everyone else that has a bitch about a 1k price rise on a new car model, or 18" standard wheels on the SS and 19's on the SSV that will cost a few thousand for replacement tyres. Maybe you should buy a BMW and Merc and then tell us where the extra $100,000 is.

Here's the other thing. GM is a big company, but it's made up of a lot of smaller ones. Look at the likes of BMW. One single manufacturer sells MILLIONS of cars annually around the world under the one badge, with all the profits going back to the one place. That's millions of cars more than Australia sells as a nation. GM as a whole may sell more cars, but they're all operated as very separate entities. BMW's worst selling model probably sells more than Holden's annual sales for all models.

How exactly is Holden's product sub-standard? You are getting sub-standard mixed up with 'not the best on the market'.

[Evman]

I just noticed too, you say GM deserved to go broke yet one of the reasons they went broke is because they were paying out retirement packages to tens of thousands of ex-employees! How is that penny pinching? Should they have given them the big f*** you and stopped paying them (even though they legally couldn't)? You think it's all so simple but it's shining through that you know nothing about what you're preaching. All you are doing is generalising with nothing solid to back up your opinions.

[Party Pete]

Chill there mate i'm not trying to start a shitfight. Indeed i read a very good article on the demise of gm in the us and the pension plans were a minor part which used as an excuse by management to explain justify their position. The fact is that gm had over half of the market to themselves a few decades ago and then somewhere in the late 60's the accountants started to get control of the company. Accountants love saving money because it improves profit and r&d spending takes years to bear fruit so they got greedy and reduced their r&d spending. As a result their cars got more and more uncompetitive in all markets and they lost market share until they no longer earned enough from sales to cover the overheads of such a large company, including pensions and health benefits but also including many almost idle factories. Things like the ordinary 6 speed auto are a legacy of gm not spending the money up front to make sure the gearbox was good but instead accepting that near enough is good enough.

For the record i am not just bitching or wanting something for nothing but i do find it frustrating that people will excuse any crap as being all you can expect for the money. Finally, i did put my money where my mouth is and bought my wife a merc slk 350 last year. Had holden not compromised the new commodore so much with cheap interior fittings and hsv with such stupid body kits that money might have gone to holden instead in the form of an upgrade from the old monaro.

Anyway, its late and i'm off now!

Ps i don't actually particularly want a dct trans anyway, i just think that it indicative of the fact that they seem to be behind the rest of the world in developing new technolgy that people want.

[Evman]

Yeah all good mate. I'm over it too. Time to move on I think :lol:

[mjrandom]

I drove a VW with DCT last year in the UK. Loved it. Great understanding between engine and gearbox. However I am not sure I would want one in my Clubby track days excepted.

There have been lots of comments on this forum about the ZF box in the Falcon compared with the GM 6 speeder. I will agree the comments are on the money for E1 (mine was an early one so not as refined even as the later E1s) but how many people have driven an E2 back to back with (say) an F6?

The new program in the auto is pretty damn good and there is no point fussing over the ZF. In fact I found the ZF in the demo (that may have something to do with it!) was harsher than the E2 on part throttle changes and trailing throttle. Manual was little if any different.

Compared to my E1 the E2 box:

Shifts much faster in manual mode, pretty much as you change not when it feels like it.

Shifts much smoother all the time

Doesn't drop into 1st the moment you slow down below 10 kph

Matches engine revs to road speed on manual downchanges to the extent that there is no instant engine braking (something I used going into corners)

The box isn't seamless but then neither is the ZF but 99% of the time it is the smoothest box I have had in a car with a bucket load of Nm.

Any other E2 owners want to comment?

[mac06]

Sorry, but Ford can build the Australian only Falcon and afford to put in the ZF 6 speed. Oh, and they are sold for a cheaper price too. I could guess that they don't sell them at a loss so clearly there is enough room within their pricing to afford a better gearbox........

......Vauxhall can't build cars up to the standard of Ford UK. The common denominator here is a corporate culture which has been around for decades which values penny pinching to try to improve short term profits over constantly improving the product to keep it ahead of the competition. They are broke because they deserve it.

If Ford are so much better then they should be making a profit according to this reasoning, but they're not. They have the same problems financially as GM, with the exception that they sold off assets to cover their commitments.

Talking about how Holden are doing with regard to expensive technology they've just introduced with the MY10 V6 the SIDI motor and 6 speed auto at no cost increase to the consumer. That technology costs a lot more than the MY9.5 therefore they are not penny pinching. I'm sure that technology will flow through to other models in the line up.

Given time we will see DCT gearboxes in Holdens I'm sure, but it will have to be a cheaper option than is available currently for it to be accepted by the buying public. The general public won't want a huge price hike in what are currently affordable vehicles that drive very well for most people. The DCT may very be introduced in up spec models initially to differentiate between the base models, then flow through to the base models later. Either way it's at least two years away if earlier reports are anything to go by.

[rgmast]

If Ford are so much better then they should be making a profit according to this reasoning, but they're not. They have the same problems financially as GM, with the exception that they sold off assets to cover their commitments.

Talking about how Holden are doing with regard to expensive technology they've just introduced with the MY10 V6 the SIDI motor and 6 speed auto at no cost increase to the consumer. That technology costs a lot more than the MY9.5 therefore they are not penny pinching. I'm sure that technology will flow through to other models in the line up.

Given time we will see DCT gearboxes in Holdens I'm sure, but it will have to be a cheaper option than is available currently for it to be accepted by the buying public. The general public won't want a huge price hike in what are currently affordable vehicles that drive very well for most people. The DCT may very be introduced in up spec models initially to differentiate between the base models, then flow through to the base models later. Either way it's at least two years away if earlier reports are anything to go by.

Maybe they were charging to much in the first place :1peek:

[Uwish]

Maybe they were charging to much in the first place :1peek:
BINGO
I for one would buy another HSV if it had a dsg style box.
If not I will move to a euro of some sort.

[mrtockley]

BINGO
I for one would buy another HSV if it had a dsg style box.
If not I will move to a euro of some sort.

..cos you definitely wont get charged too much for a euro with a DSG will you?

[mac06]

Maybe they were charging to much in the first place :1peek:

And maybe the cost of VE development has been paid for and now they're able to cut profit margins to introduce the SIDI :)

[saaz]

Back to DCT boxes for a while...Honda should be brining one out in the VFR1200F this year sometime. It has only been track and limited road tested sofar, but seems like it works very well. The usual manual mode and a couple of auto shift modes, with the possibility later of of tunability of the modes. On bikes anyway car like auto transmissions don't have the same 'connection' to the bike to control cornering etc, so a gearbox that is really a manual one but with slick computer controleld shifting will make the world of difference for acceptance. Bike riders are on average far more conservative in many ways to car drivers.

[planetdavo]

Probably because most of GM's products can't absorb the costs :weirdo: Yeah a 25k gearbox/transaxle assembly might be top notch and absolutely terrific to drive, but would you pay the extra 20k on top of a Commodore to have it? No.

Don't add logic to this topic. Yet again, Tuna has successfully worked nearly everyone into believing they must have something most people have never even driven, then you come on here and tell them it's going to cost them heaps more!
Naughty boy. Keep logic out of this forum, or you'll give it a good name...:bawl:

[planetdavo]

The point Davo is why is GM Drivetrains, part of what was up until a couple of years ago the largest car maker in the world, unable to produce a gearbox to match the best in the world? Could it be that the reason GM internationally is in so much trouble financially is that they can't/won't produce products up to the same standard as others and constantly claims it's all about costs?

So the trimatic was a cutting edge trans at some point, was it? :confused:
The latest versions of VE are much improved on the single older cars most people base their generalised opinions on.

[planetdavo]

Bike riders are on average far more conservative in many ways to car drivers.
Wouldn't mind seeing some evidence to prove this.
The number of bike riders that weave in amongst traffic and attempt wheelies off the lights is mind boggling...

[planetdavo]

A) who cares who sourced the box. The simple fact is, it's available in a sub 50k car.

B) GM don't own any other car manufacturers that can source a decent auto ?

If we end up with a front wheel drive Taurus based Falcon because Ford Australia gave you that "wonderful" but very expensive ZF 6 speed auto, was it truly worthwhile, looking at the bigger picture?
No.
Holden could also offer an LS9 in a $55K SSV, but do you think it would keep Holden in business?
No.
The car industry is purely and simply about economics. Offer just enough to get people to buy your products, but not that much that you rip into profits you could (mostly) otherwise still earn.
That is why forums often have their members heads stuck up in the clouds. All dreams, and little reality...

[The-V8-Power]

The car industry is purely and simply about economics. Offer just enough to get people to buy your products, but not that much that you rip into profits you could (mostly) otherwise still earn.


Thats true PD.
It is also about economies of large scale which is tied in. For GM to make this DCT exercise worthwhile, they will have to do enough R & D to see if their buyers want this. They won't only look at enthusiasts but also normal people who wouldn't care as much. They more or less care about the end price and if it is more fuel effiecient etc. If all seems good to go they will start building them as it is above rumoured. I think they will start to sooner or later if they can find a buisness case for vehicles here and in the US. If it takes off over there in a car such as the Corvette, they will produce more and in that case it will be devloped for a hi-po car and also for daily commuter cars. Companies such as VW as mentioned have them in most cases since they have them in most of their cars and as a result can produce them far cheaper.
I think I didn't make much sense but its my view.:)

[Party Pete]

Sorry about the gap but I have only just got home from work. Not wanting to re-stir up emotion but my point I was trying to make was that GM was in as good a position to develop state of the art transmissions as anyone else in the world and they used to. The trimatic was was always awful, but when introduced the turbo 400 was as good as anything other than the perhaps the Mercedes auto. That is why Rolls Royce used to use it. But over the years GM has fallen behind. The ZF kills the current GM 6 speed auto which is why so many brands use it, even BMW. Regarding DSG, it should be remembered that it was humble Volkswagen which developed this gearbox for mass production and introduced it and not in high end cars but in the likes of the Golf and Passat and the cost of optioning them was, and I believe still is, in the region of $3000. Given that they generally used to charge about $2000 extra for the conventional autos this is not a huge increase in price for the DSG gearbox. The thing is in terms of size Volkswagen was smaller than GM at the time they did this so the fact that they did and GM didn't comes down to them being prepared to spend the money and take the punt on making a return on that investment in the future. History has shown that they got it right because now everyone wants a DSG gearbox and they must have sold a fairly high number of extra cars on this feature. No wonder other car makers are falling over themselves to get one on the market ASAP.

Regarding the comment on the F6 with the ZF gearbox compared with the new E2 6 speed, I have done the direct comparison on the same roads on the same day. The E2 is much, much better than the E1 in regards to the auto and indeed doesn't lurch and clunk anywhere nearly as much and does perfect throttle blips on downchanges too, but it still didn't have the seemless nature of the ZF which is pretty outstanding. I don't know whether to praise HSV for improving it so much in the new version or to ask why they released it so poorly tuned in the E1. Either way it is much better.

Finally, I don't mean to come across as having a great problem with Holden or their products as this is not how I feel. I have loved the last 5 Holdens that I have owned and think that the VE architecture is brilliant for a car of its class and built for such a small budget. It is just that for all that they have failed to sell me one because I feel that Holden is letting the car down with details and I believe that this is large reason why their market share is dropping. More importantly, it seems that this has happened since Peter Hanenberger left and was replaced with a succession of GM US executives who seem more obsessed with reducing production costs and selling the cars to the US at a cut price than improving the car to keep it competitive in Australia. History has shown in the US (with all 3 companies) and in the UK with British Leyland that this sort of cost cutting is a slippery slope to into the abyss. Sadly, sales in Australia of Holdens have been steadily falling over the last few years so they are already starting to mirror the unfortunate demise of these brands. I personally would hate to see that continue and Australia to be saddled with a choice between bland Toyotos or over-priced (in Australia) German luxury brands.

[mrtockley]

If we end up with a front wheel drive Taurus based Falcon because Ford Australia gave you that "wonderful" but very expensive ZF 6 speed auto, was it truly worthwhile, looking at the bigger picture?
No.
Holden could also offer an LS9 in a $55K SSV, but do you think it would keep Holden in business?
No.
The car industry is purely and simply about economics. Offer just enough to get people to buy your products, but not that much that you rip into profits you could (mostly) otherwise still earn.
That is why forums often have their members heads stuck up in the clouds. All dreams, and little reality...

I don't follow your logic PD .. If we end up with front wheel Taurus / Falcons, it's purely because Ford in Dearborn say to Ford Oz, this is what we're doing as part of our global lineup, it has nothing to do with Ford Oz sourcing the ZF as a replacement auto ... Just because the Falcon is not selling as well as the Commodore, doesn't mean it's not making money..

[Martin_D]

Davo - even though he is top poster here (*award*) - hasnt been around long enough to realise that this forum isnt populated by people that cant afford a set of cheap thongs. He will get in touch shortly :lol:

[mrtockley]

Sorry about the gap but I have only just got home from work. Not wanting to re-stir up emotion but my point I was trying to make was that GM was in as good a position to develop state of the art transmissions as anyone else in the world and they used to. The trimatic was was always awful, but when introduced the turbo 400 was as good as anything other than the perhaps the Mercedes auto. That is why Rolls Royce used to use it. But over the years GM has fallen behind. The ZF kills the current GM 6 speed auto which is why so many brands use it, even BMW. Regarding DSG, it should be remembered that it was humble Volkswagen which developed this gearbox for mass production and introduced it and not in high end cars but in the likes of the Golf and Passat and the cost of optioning them was, and I believe still is, in the region of $3000. Given that they generally used to charge about $2000 extra for the conventional autos this is not a huge increase in price for the DSG gearbox. The thing is in terms of size Volkswagen was smaller than GM at the time they did this so the fact that they did and GM didn't comes down to them being prepared to spend the money and take the punt on making a return on that investment in the future. History has shown that they got it right because now everyone wants a DSG gearbox and they must have sold a fairly high number of extra cars on this feature. No wonder other car makers are falling over themselves to get one on the market ASAP.

Regarding the comment on the F6 with the ZF gearbox compared with the new E2 6 speed, I have done the direct comparison on the same roads on the same day. The E2 is much, much better than the E1 in regards to the auto and indeed doesn't lurch and clunk anywhere nearly as much and does perfect throttle blips on downchanges too, but it still didn't have the seemless nature of the ZF which is pretty outstanding. I don't know whether to praise HSV for improving it so much in the new version or to ask why they released it so poorly tuned in the E1. Either way it is much better.

Finally, I don't mean to come across as having a great problem with Holden or their products as this is not how I feel. I have loved the last 5 Holdens that I have owned and think that the VE architecture is brilliant for a car of its class and built for such a small budget. It is just that for all that they have failed to sell me one because I feel that Holden is letting the car down with details and I believe that this is large reason why their market share is dropping. More importantly, it seems that this has happened since Peter Hanenberger left and was replaced with a succession of GM US executives who seem more obsessed with reducing production costs and selling the cars to the US at a cut price than improving the car to keep it competitive in Australia. History has shown in the US (with all 3 companies) and in the UK with British Leyland that this sort of cost cutting is a slippery slope to into the abyss. Sadly, sales in Australia of Holdens have been steadily falling over the last few years so they are already starting to mirror the unfortunate demise of these brands. I personally would hate to see that continue and Australia to be saddled with a choice between bland Toyotos or over-priced (in Australia) German luxury brands.

Great post Pete, and I agree 100% The simple fact is it costs money to evolve and introduce new technology into cars (VE interior anyone?) The old "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality doesn't cut in anymore. The only thing from saving Holden and Ford Oz from going under is the ridiculous tariff's imposed on imports...

[Jarhead]

Great post Pete, and I agree 100% The simple fact is it costs money to evolve and introduce new technology into cars (VE interior anyone?) The old "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality doesn't cut in anymore. The only thing from saving Holden and Ford Oz from going under is the ridiculous tariff's imposed on imports...

Oh so true. If Holden/Ford were left to fight in a fair market place they would have gone out with the do do bird!

Then again, if it wasn't for tariffs we would all be driving a Camry:vpo:

[SV805]

6 Months ago sold the VE SS with about 100,000 ks. No real changes to the VE since I bought in Sep 2006.

So off to find something else. test drove heaps of cars in an around the $50K budget and kept coming back to a Golf GTI with the DSG Box. I do about 40,000 k.s a year with a mix of Hyway and town traffic. Love to give it a squirt where I can and take it to the track a couple of times a year.

I ended up with A Pirelli Version with an APR tune before delivery and has a claimed 229kws. On Dyno it has 285 FWKW and together with the DSG surprises alot of people. Actually Marginally quicker around Willowbank than my 250RWKW VE SS. Once again Surprised heaps of people.

Now I don't know if a DSG is the same as the box Tuna is speaking about (Just with ability to take a heap more torque for the GTR) However it is a great gearbox that I really would like to see and willing to pay for in a HSV.

It has Drive (Normal Auto) Sports Mode (Great for spirited driving with gears held longer and blipping on down changes) and then Manual mode which is great for the track with both gear shift and paddles. (I like the paddles as the gear shift to me is upside down)

As a number of people have said it is the best of both worlds. I believe and I am not technical but it is a clutchless manual box with two clutches. 1 for gears 1 3 and 5 and another for 2 4 and 6. This gives it the ability to always seem to be in the right gear at the right time and reduces change times dratacially.

I can't see why when HSV wre doing the W427 they couldn't have tried a gearbox like this due to the premium charged. Would have given great insight into teh workings and evaluation for further models.

This gearbox is on a car around teh low to mid $40K mark that has been loaded with import taxes. Surely we could produce s car with a gearbox like thsi with say a $5K premium to what we get now.

I don't know I must be getting old but I love this DSG and would really like to see thsi technology in a HSV sooner rather than later.

[V-Car]

Yeah a 25k gearbox/transaxle assembly might be top notch and absolutely terrific to drive, but would you pay the extra 20k on top of a Commodore to have it? No.

Ford must be making a $23k loss in Australia on the Focus 2.0TDCi with Getrag 6 speed Powershift DCT as its only a $2k option over the 6 speed manual!

[Evman]

Ford must be making a $23k loss in Australia on the Focus 2.0TDCi with Getrag 6 speed Powershift DCT as its only a $2k option over the 6 speed manual!

Oh ok so it can handle 350kw can it? Jebus why haven't Ford put it in the Falcon yet?

Don't take stuff out of context. Read my post again and then see if it sinks in that I was referring to the GTR equipment (transaxle included, as mentioned).

[V-Car]

Sorry about the gap but I have only just got home from work. Not wanting to re-stir up emotion but my point I was trying to make was that GM was in as good a position to develop state of the art transmissions as anyone else in the world and they used to. The trimatic was was always awful, but when introduced the turbo 400 was as good as anything other than the perhaps the Mercedes auto. That is why Rolls Royce used to use it. But over the years GM has fallen behind. The ZF kills the current GM 6 speed auto which is why so many brands use it, even BMW. Regarding DSG, it should be remembered that it was humble Volkswagen which developed this gearbox for mass production and introduced it and not in high end cars but in the likes of the Golf and Passat and the cost of optioning them was, and I believe still is, in the region of $3000. Given that they generally used to charge about $2000 extra for the conventional autos this is not a huge increase in price for the DSG gearbox. The thing is in terms of size Volkswagen was smaller than GM at the time they did this so the fact that they did and GM didn't comes down to them being prepared to spend the money and take the punt on making a return on that investment in the future. History has shown that they got it right because now everyone wants a DSG gearbox and they must have sold a fairly high number of extra cars on this feature. No wonder other car makers are falling over themselves to get one on the market ASAP.

Regarding the comment on the F6 with the ZF gearbox compared with the new E2 6 speed, I have done the direct comparison on the same roads on the same day. The E2 is much, much better than the E1 in regards to the auto and indeed doesn't lurch and clunk anywhere nearly as much and does perfect throttle blips on downchanges too, but it still didn't have the seemless nature of the ZF which is pretty outstanding. I don't know whether to praise HSV for improving it so much in the new version or to ask why they released it so poorly tuned in the E1. Either way it is much better.

Finally, I don't mean to come across as having a great problem with Holden or their products as this is not how I feel. I have loved the last 5 Holdens that I have owned and think that the VE architecture is brilliant for a car of its class and built for such a small budget. It is just that for all that they have failed to sell me one because I feel that Holden is letting the car down with details and I believe that this is large reason why their market share is dropping. More importantly, it seems that this has happened since Peter Hanenberger left and was replaced with a succession of GM US executives who seem more obsessed with reducing production costs and selling the cars to the US at a cut price than improving the car to keep it competitive in Australia. History has shown in the US (with all 3 companies) and in the UK with British Leyland that this sort of cost cutting is a slippery slope to into the abyss. Sadly, sales in Australia of Holdens have been steadily falling over the last few years so they are already starting to mirror the unfortunate demise of these brands. I personally would hate to see that continue and Australia to be saddled with a choice between bland Toyotos or over-priced (in Australia) German luxury brands.

Excellent, logical post from someone with both eyes open. Thanks Pete.
But, unfortunately, logic is something lost on the blinkered in this thread.
Quality posts beat quantity posts anytime. ;)

[Evman]

Sadly, sales in Australia of Holdens have been steadily falling over the last few years so they are already starting to mirror the unfortunate demise of these brands.

You do realise that Holden had a 0.1% drop in market share this year while Toyota had a 2.2% drop? Where's the logic in that seeing as you were saying Toyota is ahead leaps and bounds? It's also not a "steady" decline. A decline no doubt, but in previous years it'd been a percent or more. One can only make assumptions but Holden's market share decline has in fact been slowing and is obviously almost at a stop. If the decline was steady it's be well into the single digits by now. Hardly mirroring the demise of the examples you gave.

[Martin_D]

Then again, if it wasn't for tariffs we would all be driving a Camry:vpo:

Or an AMG for HSV money :cool:

[Ellistwo]

Excellent, logical post from someone with both eyes open. Thanks Pete.
But, unfortunately, logic is something lost on the blinkered in this thread.
Quality posts beat quantity posts anytime. ;)

Excellent should be along anytime soon, to balance out the bias.

[Excellent]

Actually I can see merit in both arguments.

I wish HSV (GTS) would become a showcase for such technology instead of focusing too much on differentiating itself from Holden's cars with unique body parts.

I can also see that Holden needs to make affordable performance cars. Having said that, I don't think it should take Holden/HSV 10 years (at least) before they run with the technology.

Great posts, Party Pete. I can definitely see where you are coming from. :goodjob:

[glavas]

errr who cares about technology give me a big cubed manuel box any day. autos and all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

[Excellent]

errr who cares about technology give me a big cubed manuel box any day. autos and all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

I can just see a day when people look back on their manual boxes of today like some proud owners of cars do with their three on the tree, lol.

It's progress, I guess. If not for progress, we'd still be running carburetors today.

[macca_779]

errr who cares about technology give me a big cubed manuel box any day. autos and all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

I can appreciate a DCT or Auto as much as the next guy. But when it comes down to it you dont have the involvement in driving as you do with a conventional manual.

[Martin_D]

autos and all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

you forgot one other category - people that want to go fast :)

[mac06]

...all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

Not the same I know, but try telling that to F1 drivers. It's called progress. Having said that the paddle shift Holden had in their V6 auto a few years ago was painful to use and the current active select is not the same as driving a manual, hence the DCT gearbox is a better option for the future.

[glavas]

you forgot one other category - people that want to go fast :)

not everything is about speed friend. a manuel is fast enough if you wont insane speeds fly a jet plane

[steve_t]

I reckon Tuna. You know you want to take a jet plane around Phillip Island :rofl::rofl:

[macca_779]

not everything is about speed friend. a manuel is fast enough if you wont insane speeds fly a jet plane

:goodjob: Can't argue with that. Want to go fast push your left arm forward on the throttles. Thats all.

[mrtockley]

errr who cares about technology give me a big cubed manuel box any day. autos and all that paddel shift junk is for girls and old people.

Yeah I agree! .. cos old women definitely don't drive Calais do they ? Big cubed manuals are for people who can't spell manual and paddle properly ..

[GODSMACK]

Yeah I agree! .. cos old women definitely don't drive Calais do they ? Big cubed manuals are for people who can't spell manual and paddle properly ..

:rofl: :goodjob:

His car still only has 50k on it too..

[glavas]

ya hit me were it hurts my spelling skills. and the reason it only has 50k on it is cause i dont drive it cause it is auto. only reason i bought it was cause it was a bargin.

[exwrx]

'Bargain'......

[planetdavo]

not everything is about speed friend. a manuel is fast enough if you wont insane speeds fly a jet plane

Tuna's garage includes two track biased cars, and he always talks about vehicles in terms of their ability on the track.
Most sales are for auto's, and to owners doing the daily grind in traffic, be it work, school runs, or general running around.
Very out of touch he is.

[planetdavo]

Sorry about the gap but I have only just got home from work. Not wanting to re-stir up emotion but my point I was trying to make was that GM was in as good a position to develop state of the art transmissions as anyone else in the world and they used to. The trimatic was was always awful, but when introduced the turbo 400 was as good as anything other than the perhaps the Mercedes auto. That is why Rolls Royce used to use it. But over the years GM has fallen behind. The ZF kills the current GM 6 speed auto which is why so many brands use it, even BMW. Regarding DSG, it should be remembered that it was humble Volkswagen which developed this gearbox for mass production and introduced it and not in high end cars but in the likes of the Golf and Passat and the cost of optioning them was, and I believe still is, in the region of $3000. Given that they generally used to charge about $2000 extra for the conventional autos this is not a huge increase in price for the DSG gearbox. The thing is in terms of size Volkswagen was smaller than GM at the time they did this so the fact that they did and GM didn't comes down to them being prepared to spend the money and take the punt on making a return on that investment in the future. History has shown that they got it right because now everyone wants a DSG gearbox and they must have sold a fairly high number of extra cars on this feature. No wonder other car makers are falling over themselves to get one on the market ASAP.

Regarding the comment on the F6 with the ZF gearbox compared with the new E2 6 speed, I have done the direct comparison on the same roads on the same day. The E2 is much, much better than the E1 in regards to the auto and indeed doesn't lurch and clunk anywhere nearly as much and does perfect throttle blips on downchanges too, but it still didn't have the seemless nature of the ZF which is pretty outstanding. I don't know whether to praise HSV for improving it so much in the new version or to ask why they released it so poorly tuned in the E1. Either way it is much better.

Finally, I don't mean to come across as having a great problem with Holden or their products as this is not how I feel. I have loved the last 5 Holdens that I have owned and think that the VE architecture is brilliant for a car of its class and built for such a small budget. It is just that for all that they have failed to sell me one because I feel that Holden is letting the car down with details and I believe that this is large reason why their market share is dropping. More importantly, it seems that this has happened since Peter Hanenberger left and was replaced with a succession of GM US executives who seem more obsessed with reducing production costs and selling the cars to the US at a cut price than improving the car to keep it competitive in Australia. History has shown in the US (with all 3 companies) and in the UK with British Leyland that this sort of cost cutting is a slippery slope to into the abyss. Sadly, sales in Australia of Holdens have been steadily falling over the last few years so they are already starting to mirror the unfortunate demise of these brands. I personally would hate to see that continue and Australia to be saddled with a choice between bland Toyotos or over-priced (in Australia) German luxury brands.

Good post. Several points to add.
VW, being the owner of Audi, charge a significant premium for their A3 models compared to the Golf, which is basically a top hat re-body of the A3. They get to make very good money from the Audi, whilst having access to a driveline already developed for the A3 for the Golf. Volume equals cost savings. What's Golf/A3 production? One million plus cars per year for the whole world? That's huge.
GM had massive market share around the world in the era of the T400, and very little true competition. Huge profits? Little competition? Cha ching! It didn't have to be anywhere near cutting edge to be near best in market. PEople's expectations were also far lower back then, and cars were far less refined than anything these days.
The later 6L80E's have significant internal transmission hardware changes to the earlier ones, rather than simple software changes. The changes are significant enough that ealier models cannot be reflashed with later software. This is the main reason for the improvements. It's called development. Many cars in history end up better than they started.
Finally, it takes considerable time developing new product and, in GM's case, introducing a significant change in business mentality from how they used to do it. The "new GM" is rather new, and the world isn't fixed in a few months in the car industry...:)

[planetdavo]

Ford must be making a $23k loss in Australia on the Focus 2.0TDCi with Getrag 6 speed Powershift DCT as its only a $2k option over the 6 speed manual!

As has been brought up several times, it's more the lack of affordable high torque DCT's that's important to this topic, not low torque, front wheel drive models that are made by various manufacturers in the hundreds of thousands, if not over a million, per year...

[exwrx]

Tuna's garage includes two track biased cars, and he always talks about vehicles in terms of their ability on the track.
Most sales are for auto's, and to owners doing the daily grind in traffic, be it work, school runs, or general running around.
Very out of touch he is.

That is a very harsh call - Tuna was playing with ls1s on the road for a very long time and if you bothered to read his posts he is talking about day to day driveability, not just the track. You can disagree with him but calling him out of touch is far from the truth IMHO.

Less posting, more thinking IMHO.

[planetdavo]

That is a very harsh call - Tuna was playing with ls1s on the road for a very long time and if you bothered to read his posts he is talking about day to day driveability, not just the track. You can disagree with him but calling him out of touch is far from the truth IMHO.

Less posting, more thinking IMHO.

Tuna spends virtually his whole time telling you all how sh!t the product you waste your money on is, whilst talking about highly tuned vehicles with often fairly track focused technology. Now, have a look at what his rides are.
Yep, he's still a Holden boy "keepin' it real"...:lmao:
I believe I have thought about it pretty well. :)

[Party Pete]

At the end of the day Davo, GM was meant to have Cadillac, a car they claim they want to compete with BMW so I presume that means they want to compete with Audi also. Volume is there for GM, or it was before they let it all go. These are excuses for their failure to look ahead not justifiable reasons for it. Volkswagen can put these DSG gearboxes in everything from basic Skodas up, this is because they have spent the money developing the engineering and design and then adapted it to the different requirements. Sure, a VW Golf gearbox can't handle 600nm of torque, but then neither can the transaxle in Cruze. The issue appears to be that the DCT gearbox doesn't appear to be that prohibitively expensive to manufacture as compared to conventional automatics, the expense is in developing them in the first place. Either that or most manufacturers offering them as an option are sucking in a loss on each gearbox.

You are right that expectations have gone up, but GM has always had competition and they succumbed to it because the competition got better faster than they did. In the days of the T400 the gearbox was chosen for the self proclaimed best car in the world presumably because it was believed to be the best option in the world. If you were drive the alternative autos of the era you would probably agree with them. So, although it is easy for people to claim the GM were victims of competition, it can't be ignored that the ones who spent money on developing better products have thrived while those who have chosen to try to save money on products have failed. Volkswagen/Audi are a great case in point because over the last 30 years of so they have managed to move both brands upmarket from very cheap and slightly more expensive to mid range and high end. It is more than marketing that has achieved that, it has been a lot of money spent on trying to be ahead of the market in innovation and quality.

My comments on losing market share for Holden is based on the fact that only a few years ago they were shifting 75,000 units per year of the Commodore (in Australia) and now they are shifting closer to 45,000. That is a huge drop which has occurred during a period of year on year record total car sales. People here might not be worried about that trend but I am pretty sure that Holden executives are.

[planetdavo]

At the end of the day Davo, GM was meant to have Cadillac, a car they claim they want to compete with BMW so I presume that means they want to compete with Audi also. Volume is there for GM, or it was before they let it all go. These are excuses for their failure to look ahead not justifiable reasons for it. Volkswagen can put these DSG gearboxes in everything from basic Skodas up, this is because they have spent the money developing the engineering and design and then adapted it to the different requirements. Sure, a VW Golf gearbox can't handle 600nm of torque, but then neither can the transaxle in Cruze. The issue appears to be that the DCT gearbox doesn't appear to be that prohibitively expensive to manufacture as compared to conventional automatics, the expense is in developing them in the first place. Either that or most manufacturers offering them as an option are sucking in a loss on each gearbox.

You are right that expectations have gone up, but GM has always had competition and they succumbed to it because the competition got better faster than they did. In the days of the T400 the gearbox was chosen for the self proclaimed best car in the world presumably because it was believed to be the best option in the world. If you were drive the alternative autos of the era you would probably agree with them. So, although it is easy for people to claim the GM were victims of competition, it can't be ignored that the ones who spent money on developing better products have thrived while those who have chosen to try to save money on products have failed. Volkswagen/Audi are a great case in point because over the last 30 years of so they have managed to move both brands upmarket from very cheap and slightly more expensive to mid range and high end. It is more than marketing that has achieved that, it has been a lot of money spent on trying to be ahead of the market in innovation and quality.

My comments on losing market share for Holden is based on the fact that only a few years ago they were shifting 75,000 units per year of the Commodore (in Australia) and now they are shifting closer to 45,000. That is a huge drop which has occurred during a period of year on year record total car sales. People here might not be worried about that trend but I am pretty sure that Holden executives are.

I actually do agree with much of what you say.
Cadillac gave Holden the SIDI/6 speed auto V6 driveline. GM's example of a "premium" driveline being passed down to the junior members.
There are no arguments from anyone who knows that GM slipped, but you must remember that Holden is a 100% subsiduary of GM USA. GM USA pay the bills. If GM USA was sitting on their fat @rses in the past, Holden obviously suffers too.
As for the future, I believe GM are on the right track with the "new GM". Turning to good product coming out at affordable prices from Korea, and Holden developing the Cruze hatch indicates the need for a competitive hatch, as anything from Europe is too expensive to justify it's place at this time. Much of the Euro stuff has proved far less reliable than the Korean stuff too!
Also, much of Commodore (and Falcon's) lost sales have been to buyers fundamentally changing their requirements, not from losing faith in what that style of car offered. Holden had to go "lifestyle" with VE wagon, and Ford simply gave up on the FG wagon market. Wagon buyers often go SUV now.
Ford knew it, and developed Territory. Holden knew it too, but had a desperate lack of suitable SUV (hate that name) product, until Captiva was released.
More small cars (new Spark, next Barina, current Cruze), current Captiva, next mid size Epica replacement. All are developed for worldwide sales, but with minimal differences between markets.
Exactly why Toyota is so profitable. GM's future is looking brighter.

[Martin_D]

....whilst talking about highly tuned vehicles with often fairly track focused technology. Now, have a look at what his rides are. Yep, he's still a Holden boy "keepin' it real"...:lmao:
I believe I have thought about it pretty well. :)

Not everyone wants to be a Grandpa pottering around the suburbs on the way to bowls like you Davo :lol:

[saaz]

Wouldn't mind seeing some evidence to prove this.
The number of bike riders that weave in amongst traffic and attempt wheelies off the lights is mind boggling...

Ok, perhaps I will clarify the point..bike riders tend to be more conservative about the adoption of new technology such as DCT. If racing allowed DCTs in bikes (it is banned in MotoGP and other classes, as are forms of ABS and other enhancements that would work very well on the road) I am sure most riders would greet it with open arms as it would then be 'proper'.

I agree that attempting wheelies is just not good enough..if they cannot do a proper one everytime they should give up, particularly on a sports bike :)

Honda is developing the technology more for future use in energy efficient cars, such as hybrids, as the mechanical efficiency of the DCT is better. The bike development side means a very compact system able to handle power.

[planetdavo]

Not everyone wants to be a Grandpa pottering around the suburbs on the way to bowls like you Davo :lol:

What's wrong with "pottering" around in a Monaro with headers, cats, cat back, airbox, tune, AP Racing brakes and different wheels to bowls Tuna? Car looks good no matter where it goes!
Since you suggested it was bog stock once fella...:)
:goodjob:
Oh, and it's got a nice "traditional" 6 speed manual gearbox too. You know, how real men used to change gears in your world...:cool:

[VendeTTR]

I think Tuna has 'been there and done that' with the development of the VE, after all they did come out in 2006. Its only fair that he plays with something different and new until the newer model commodore comes out.

Remember there is nothing else to do here in Adelaide apart from circuit racing around Mallala, and if that side his business gains him the most rewards then let him be, he has plenty of success with his GTR development.

[Party Pete]

I agree that it isn't GMH's fault that they have been caught short on some stuff they should have because they are hamstrung by the head office mistakes over the last couple of decades. I do believe they could have made more of the VE with better attention to detail in things like the interior and paint matching issues etc. And I do think a proportion of people who have moved to smaller cars from Mazda, Honda, Suburu and even Volkswagen have done so because they really are ahead of the Commodore in terms of the feel of high quality they have. To me, and my wife who shares these decisions, it is the lack of attention to detail that lets the whole car down.

[planetdavo]

I think Tuna has 'been there and done that' with the development of the VE, after all they did come out in 2006. Its only fair that he plays with something different and new until the newer model commodore comes out.

Remember there is nothing else to do here in Adelaide apart from circuit racing around Mallala, and if that side his business gains him the most rewards then let him be, he has plenty of success with his GTR development.

I don't doubt he comes well recommended, but it is his relevance to this forum that I question. It seems to be either pulling in sponsor created business or posting baiting input these days...:bawl:
At least only half of my time on here is upsetting everyone. The rest of the time I actually help many people on here...:)

[planetdavo]

I agree that it isn't GMH's fault that they have been caught short on some stuff they should have because they are hamstrung by the head office mistakes over the last couple of decades. I do believe they could have made more of the VE with better attention to detail in things like the interior and paint matching issues etc. And I do think a proportion of people who have moved to smaller cars from Mazda, Honda, Suburu and even Volkswagen have done so because they really are ahead of the Commodore in terms of the feel of high quality they have. To me, and my wife who shares these decisions, it is the lack of attention to detail that lets the whole car down.

I see most people buying smallish cars for three reasons.
First, real or perceived fuel economy advantages.
Secondly, size related ease of driving, particularly in these days of smaller parking bays, minimal on-street parking etc.
Thirdly, many are now available in luxury variants equivalent to traditional larger models, so there is no requirement to lower one's standards.
I honestly don't believe the majority of buyers ideally wanting a larger car will buy a smaller car purely because of perceived quality. There are more important factors. Many buyers are more likely to choose a general type of car, then choose the model within that category that suits their quality expectations.

[VendeTTR]

I don't doubt he comes well recommended, but it is his relevance to this forum that I question. It seems to be either pulling in sponsor created business or posting baiting input these days...:bawl:
At least only half of my time on here is upsetting everyone. The rest of the time I actually help many people on here...:)

Go visit his workshop then, more then 70% of cars you'll see will be VT-VE's, either getting tunes, cam packages or turbos. Whilst he is still flat out with working on these vehicles he is still very relevant to this forum. Just becuase he isnt posting up peoples rides that hes done for everyone to read about doesnt mean he isnt worthy of being here.

I know many a time where ive either PM'd or called Tuna to get some advice on certain LS1 related info and he has been very promt in reply.

And if 50% of the time your upsetting people, then maybe you need to reconsider 50% of what you post. There is more than life than just being a top poster.

[HSV590]

I don't doubt he comes well recommended, but it is his relevance to this forum that I question. It seems to be either pulling in sponsor created business or posting baiting input these days...:bawl:
At least only half of my time on here is upsetting everyone. The rest of the time I actually help many people on here...:)

I wouldn't worry about upsetting people on here Davo, and I suspect you don't. If your passion for the Holden brand upsets someone then perhaps they need to be reading another forum, when are we going to see a pic of your pride and joy?? :)
Cheers

[planetdavo]

I wouldn't worry about upsetting people on here Davo, and I suspect you don't. If your passion for the Holden brand upsets someone then perhaps they need to be reading another forum, when are we going to see a pic of your pride and joy?? :)
Cheers

Mate, if I had let a few of these peckerheads upset me, I would have left this forum about 4 years ago, never to return! :lmao:
I really should learn how to post up images. Not that big on the whole pen!s stroking thing, if you know what I mean...
Oh, by the way, I'm actually not quite as passionate as many people think! I'm just very good at what I do, and see so much opinionated, untrue sh!t written on here I just try to balance it out. :)

[Party Pete]

I agree that few people would buy a small car if they needed / wanted a large car, but the reality is that each new model tends to be a bit bigger than the model before, so there is some cross shopping between adjacent classes. The reality is that for most people, they don't need a Commodore sized car as mid size cars are big enough for their needs. But that doesn't mean that they would prefer a mid sized car necessarily, it just means that they don't have to discount a mid sized car because it is too small. So, in my view of the world, if you have a budget in mind for a car and one is large and well engineered but feels pretty cheap inside, and for the same money you can get a mid sized car which is much better equipped and has a really classy interior, I don't find it hard to see that you might choose the smaller car because frankly it just makes you feel good to sit in that nice classy interior. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't have preferred a bigger car, it is just that the package wasn't right. Personally, this is what has stopped me buying a VE and I have friends who bought a Liberty B6 Wagon last year rather than a Calais wagon for the same reason. It wasn't because they preferred the smaller size or perceive fuel economy, it was purely that the Subaru was so much nicer inside. I am sure that there are plenty of other people hidden in the raw figures who have made similar decisions.

[planetdavo]

Go visit his workshop then, more then 70% of cars you'll see will be VT-VE's, either getting tunes, cam packages or turbos. Whilst he is still flat out with working on these vehicles he is still very relevant to this forum. Just becuase he isnt posting up peoples rides that hes done for everyone to read about doesnt mean he isnt worthy of being here.

I know many a time where ive either PM'd or called Tuna to get some advice on certain LS1 related info and he has been very promt in reply.

And if 50% of the time your upsetting people, then maybe you need to reconsider 50% of what you post. There is more than life than just being a top poster.

Hmmmm, you do sound like Tuna's twin brother with that last line...
Yet again, I don't doubt his abilities.
50% comment was tongue in cheek mate. I have many posts because I have good knowledge of many parts of the industry.
But, there is a BIG difference between baiting people most of the time, and not posting up peoples rides he's worked on...:teach:

[Uncle Tone]

Tuna's garage includes two track biased cars, and he always talks about vehicles in terms of their ability on the track.
Most sales are for auto's, and to owners doing the daily grind in traffic, be it work, school runs, or general running around.
Very out of touch he is.

Thats the whole point of DCT Davo. You can do both.....and do both with more economy, very nice daily drive smoothness, and lightning quick shifts at the track. Thats why I would like to see one in a GTS :)

Tuna isn't out of touch mate.

[planetdavo]

Thats the whole point of DCT Davo. You can do both.....and do both with more economy, very nice daily drive smoothness, and lightning quick shifts at the track. Thats why I would like to see one in a GTS :)

Tuna isn't out of touch mate.

The point you, like Tuna, perhaps have missed is that it needs to be AFFORDABLE in the class Holden exist in.
Do you seriously see an affordable DCT box being available very shortly for a 500Nm plus V8 Commodore, available from around $45K on the road, without a hefty penalty?
That's where being in touch with the realities of economics is important, rather than creating a "wish list" Tone. HSV couldn't possibly afford to go it alone on this either, with only 4000 approx sales per year.
We'll end up with another W427 "ripoff" thread...:eek:

[Ellistwo]

Maybe Holden (or Ford) should give us mid sized businessman looking RWD car with V8 and DCT....something that doesn't look typically Euro nor Jap.

[mrtockley]

I agree that few people would buy a small car if they needed / wanted a large car, but the reality is that each new model tends to be a bit bigger than the model before, so there is some cross shopping between adjacent classes. The reality is that for most people, they don't need a Commodore sized car as mid size cars are big enough for their needs. But that doesn't mean that they would prefer a mid sized car necessarily, it just means that they don't have to discount a mid sized car because it is too small. So, in my view of the world, if you have a budget in mind for a car and one is large and well engineered but feels pretty cheap inside, and for the same money you can get a mid sized car which is much better equipped and has a really classy interior, I don't find it hard to see that you might choose the smaller car because frankly it just makes you feel good to sit in that nice classy interior. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't have preferred a bigger car, it is just that the package wasn't right. Personally, this is what has stopped me buying a VE and I have friends who bought a Liberty B6 Wagon last year rather than a Calais wagon for the same reason. It wasn't because they preferred the smaller size or perceive fuel economy, it was purely that the Subaru was so much nicer inside. I am sure that there are plenty of other people hidden in the raw figures who have made similar decisions.

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I'd be interested to find out exactly how many people have bought a VE purely for their fit out, quality and equipment levels. The ONLY reason I bought my SSV is because of the engine and the availability of after market upgrades.. The rest of the car is pretty average and for the 55 odd grand Holden charge, I could get something 3 times better in regards to build quality and features. If I was looking at a small car, I certainly wouldn't touch anything else Holden make. The re badged Kia's are horribly tacky, and my sister has the top spec Captiva and that is a piece of shit too. The next small car I look at will be most likely be German or Jap built as the build quality and standard level of equipment kills our local product..

[Uncle Tone]

The point you, like Tuna, perhaps have missed is that it needs to be AFFORDABLE in the class Holden exist in.
Do you seriously see an affordable DCT box being available very shortly for a 500Nm plus V8 Commodore, available from around $45K on the road, without a hefty penalty?
That's where being in touch with the realities of economics is important, rather than creating a "wish list" Tone. HSV couldn't possibly afford to go it alone on this either, with only 4000 approx sales per year.
We'll end up with another W427 "ripoff" thread...:eek:

Being relatively new, no doubt that DCT gearboxes would be expensive. But then again, last I checked, a manual setup from Holden for an HSV was dear too. Are you suggesting that what Holden charge over the counter for a gearbox is what they pay? :lol:

Spare parts prices is one thing, but what the car companies actually pay the gearbox manufacturer per unit is something else entirely mate :)

I'll give you an example based on my limited experience:

Back in 1994, I approached BTR direct to buy a Borg-Warner BT-56 (now known as the Tremec T-56) for a manual conversion into my Jag. BTR engineering at the time could bring in these boxes (I think they were a part of Borg-Warner, or an offshoot or something.....this was around the time that the only thing Tremec were building themselves were the "5 speed top loaders", or TR-3550's and TKO boxes. They gave me a very nice, detailed spec package on the BT-56, and a per unit price of $4200. If I wanted to buy 10 they could do them per unit for approx. $3800. I'm pretty sure this was before Holden started using this box, so I couldn't get a price through them, obviously.....but I'd wager that the price through them would have been double that......and considering the amount of boxes thay would have purchased, imagine what their buy price would have been. A lot less than $3800, I'd be guessing :)

Unfortunately for me, the very helpful guy at BTR had to pull out at the last minute due to me not being a buyer for a car company!! :bawl: He was very apologetic, as he knew of my project and enthusiasm for using this particular box....but his bosses said no, so I had to make do with a TR3550 Tremec :(

Having said all that, and applying the same logic, its fair enough to assume that a per unit price for a high capacity DCT from Getrag or whoever would be at least half of the 25K that was already quoted for a GTR DCT. Subtract the cost of the box that would have been used in place of the DCT in a Holden, and the maths doesn't look too bad after all :D

I'd definitely pay an 8K premium over a standard manual or auto for a DCT.

[mmciau]

What's wrong with "pottering" around in a Monaro with headers, cats, cat back, airbox, tune, AP Racing brakes and different wheels to bowls Tuna? Car looks good no matter where it goes!
Since you suggested it was bog stock once fella...:)
:goodjob:
Oh, and it's got a nice "traditional" 6 speed manual gearbox too. You know, how real men used to change gears in your world...:cool:

Is your Monaro ADR/RWC compliant with all that 'hardware" hanging off it?

Mike

[macca_779]

Is your Monaro ADR/RWC compliant with all that 'hardware" hanging off it?

Mike

Ahh where is the relevance to this thread in that. Of course its not, as are pretty much 99% of the cars here.:feedtroll:

[Uncle Tone]

Ahh where is the relevance to this thread in that. Of course its not, as are pretty much 99% of the cars here.:feedtroll:

Mine is :flip3:

Very disappointed that Davo hasn't contributed further to this discussion, or tried to debate my logic :bawl:


Here's fun: An E2 GTS with an LS7 and DCT :bow: HSV, are you reading this??? :nutkick:

[duke5700]

Mine is :flip3:

Very disappointed that Davo hasn't contributed further to this discussion, or tried to debate my logic :bawl:


Here's fun: An E2 GTS with an LS7 and DCT :bow: HSV, are you reading this??? :nutkick:

and lose a few extra pounds of its fat ass and it may really turn into a sportscar :1peek:

[Evman]

Mine is :flip3:

Did you bring the teacher an apple before class each day too? :lol:

[Grant]

Mine is :flip3:

Very disappointed that Davo hasn't contributed further to this discussion, or tried to debate my logic :bawl:


Here's fun: An E2 GTS with an LS7 and DCT :bow: HSV, are you reading this??? :nutkick:

Your logic is childish and in no way reflects reality. The cost of an individual gearbox, or even a gearbox in volume is only incidentally related to the final cost to the end customer.

Here's an analogy. An iPhone costs about $100 to manufacture, and a large portion of that cost is related to licensing and not hardware. The street price for chumps like us is about $700. Just for fun, try to come up with a list of contributing costs that result in that figure (ignore profit, because there is stuff all of it).

On your second point, go read about the automatic in any current AMG Mercedes and see if you still think a DCT is the best solution.

[Uwish]

Grant, are you telling me Apple make f-all out of an Iphone?
I call BS......
Just like any IT thing its all about the Profit!

[Uncle Tone]

Your logic is childish and in no way reflects reality. The cost of an individual gearbox, or even a gearbox in volume is only incidentally related to the final cost to the end customer.

Here's an analogy. An iPhone costs about $100 to manufacture, and a large portion of that cost is related to licensing and not hardware. The street price for chumps like us is about $700. Just for fun, try to come up with a list of contributing costs that result in that figure (ignore profit, because there is stuff all of it).

You're wrong. Have a bit more of a think about it mate :)

[vlcalais2005]

apple them selfs make enough out of the iphone but retailers dont

[Wezza]

Don't Kia run a version of CVT transmissions in some of their range, obviously small engines but the technology can be that expensive.

Not that i know of. The main auto they use now is a 6 speed unit shared with Hyundai. The cool thing about it is it's completely sealed, never needs servicing. It's a very slick box too, i've driven the new Sorrento with one mated to the 2.2 CRD.

[Grant]

You're wrong. Have a bit more of a think about it mate :)

No, I'm not wrong. But good on you for taking on the intellectual challenge and actually thinking about the subject rather than just spouting ignorant opinion rather than a reasoned argument.

Let me get you started:


NRE (non-recoverable engineering),
Tooling,
Minimum order quantities,
Marketing,
Training,
Sales,
Support,
Warranty,
Inventory,
Freight & Distribution.

The actual cost of developing a product, ANY product, is substantially removed from just the raw material cost of components.

The point of the iPhone analogy was to highlight the fact the raw materials cost is much lower than you might assume (my estimation only, based on experience developing similar products).

[Uncle Tone]

No, I'm not wrong. But good on you for taking on the intellectual challenge and actually thinking about the subject rather than just spouting ignorant opinion rather than a reasoned argument.

Let me get you started:


NRE (non-recoverable engineering),
Tooling,
Minimum order quantities,
Marketing,
Training,
Sales,
Support,
Warranty,
Inventory,
Freight & Distribution.

The actual cost of developing a product, ANY product, is substantially removed from just the raw material cost of components.

The point of the iPhone analogy was to highlight the fact the raw materials cost is much lower than you might assume (my estimation only, based on experience developing similar products).

Hehehe....you're funny :lol: Nice google search too :bow:

You do realize we are talking about a gearbox option here, and not a whole car......don't you? :confused:

[macca33]

..........snip...............I'd definitely pay an 8K premium over a standard manual or auto for a DCT.


Rubbish UT - try to argue within the bounds of reality....please.

This DCT idea is good, however, if GM do not do it globally - and in all reality, IF it eventuates, we'll see it as a result of things that are done in the US (in relation to Corvette / Camaro / Cadillac V8s) in the first instance - then it will never happen in a Holden / HSV V8 - end of story.

As Davo says, we do not have a large enough market alone and are subject to the decisions made by the Yanks.

cheers

[eldan89]

Well if Volkswagon can put a DCT gearbox in every model I don't see why Holden can't one day do the same thing. After spending time driving a Golf R32 I can safely say that DCT is the only true supplement for a conventional manual gearbox. In full auto mode its got seamless changes, the unsuspecting would have no idea what an animal the car could be. Flick it into sports mode it literally reads your mind, always in the right gear keeping the revs up. Full manual mode is the closest thing you'll get to driving a conventional manual car, only with quicker gear changes and constant perfect rev matched downshifts.

In comparison it makes an A6 VE Senator box feel like its been taken from something agricultural. It felt like it was always second guessing itself, and in tiptronic mode the shifts were way to slow. Give me a proper manual HSV any day.

[pro-logic]

Until GM starts to build its own (or buys them from a dedicated manufacturer) in hundreds of thousands of units holden won't be able to get a price advantage.

You also have to realise that while DCTs are awesome, there are very few that can handle high torque. I believe the highest torque handling one is fitted to the Veyron, which if memory serves produces 1.25KNm of torque.

The golf on the other hand doesn't produce anywhere near the 550Nm of torque of the LS3. So a DCT to handle that much is only found in 'exclusive' car brand which can afford low volume runs.

[fishla]

I agree with UT, it would be fantastic (and I'd sell up for a Clubsport with DCT in a flash)!

Shame I don't see it happening for quite a few years :(

[Uncle Tone]

Rubbish UT - try to argue within the bounds of reality....please.

You the expert are you? :stick:

Tell me why its not possible then. I stand by my experience.....and my comments. Bet you can't tell me why I'm wrong, 'cause Davo sure couldn't.

[LTH-00L]

I'm not sure if this is completely true but a guy i know was looking at buying a VW Golf with DSG and after a bunch of research he found out that at about 80,000 km the DSG needs to be serviced.

This in it self was quite costly and apparently quite tricky... If it is not done correctly, (and i mean anal things like the temp of the box when re-filling etc) it would mean the end of the DSG is near....

I would much prefer to my simple, reliable GM box until the DSG technology is perfected and made affordable...

[steve_t]

You also have to realise that while DCTs are awesome, there are very few that can handle high torque. I believe the highest torque handling one is fitted to the Veyron, which if memory serves produces 1.25KNm of torque.

The golf on the other hand doesn't produce anywhere near the 550Nm of torque of the LS3. So a DCT to handle that much is only found in 'exclusive' car brand which can afford low volume runs.

GTR DCT has to put up with 580nm, though in all fairness, it didn't do it well with the original launch control parameters :goodjob:

[pro-logic]

GTR DCT has to put up with 580nm and is also hand built, and as far as I can tell the car cost 2x as much as a GTS.

[steve_t]

Yeah, fair call. US$20,000 for a replacement 'box = ouch.

[planetdavo]

Sorry I went a.w.o.l.
I simply got bored with the crap. :spew:
We all know which person in particular was stirring you all up into a lather, over something reliant on GM head office to develop in a traditional gearbox to engine application before we have any hope of having it, not in a transaxle application like Corvette.
Until then, I might go have a beer, or maybe pick my nose.

[Uncle Tone]

Sorry I went a.w.o.l.
I simply got bored with the crap. :spew:
We all know which person in particular was stirring you all up into a lather, over something reliant on GM head office to develop in a traditional gearbox to engine application before we have any hope of having it, not in a transaxle application like Corvette.
Until then, I might go have a beer, or maybe pick my nose.

A transaxle is just a diff bolted onto a gearbox instead of an extension housing mate :teach:

I'm a bit disappointed you chose not to debate gearbox prices with me :bawl:

[macca33]

You the expert are you? :stick:

Tell me why its not possible then. I stand by my experience.....and my comments. Bet you can't tell me why I'm wrong, 'cause Davo sure couldn't.
Who inferred your opinion about DCT was incorrect? Your comment about gladly spending $8k over and above the other transmission options, for a DCT option, was called as rubbish and I confirm that call.

[Uncle Tone]

Who inferred your opinion about DCT was incorrect? Your comment about gladly spending $8k over and above the other transmission options, for a DCT option, was called as rubbish and I confirm that call.

Macca, I would pay 8K over the GTS price if it was fitted with a DCT gearbox.

Why would you say its rubbish? Its a reasonable premium, so I don't quite understand your angle here.....unless you mean that 8K is either too much or too little.

[planetdavo]

Macca, I would pay 8K over the GTS price if it was fitted with a DCT gearbox.

Why would you say its rubbish? Its a reasonable premium, so I don't quite understand your angle here.....unless you mean that 8K is either too much or too little.

YOU MIGHT.
That's the point.
A handful of buyers hasn't got a hope of opening the Holden or HSV wallet, especially when most buyers are more than happy with the existing two options that will cost them (to use your example) $8000 less. Most people simply aren't as passionate as some of you "enthusiusts".
I'll make one comment re your attempts to debate gearbox prices.
The cost of the gearbox from someone like Tremec is just a minor part of the whole picture. Whilst it might not bother backyarders and small operators, manufacturers are expected to develop a product that is reliable, well engineered and devoid of anything that will p!ss off a new car buyer, particular NVH issues.
The cost of the "off the shelf" gearbox is just a p!ss in the ocean compared to the cost of engineering it into the car. However, it is critically important that this cost is incorporated into any arguments relating to the true overall cost of "the gearbox". Fail to do that, and your argument is fundamentally flawed.
Later.

[Martin_D]

Bottom line is Mitsubishi can have a DCT option on a super low volume EVO X (which sells less than HSV) using German Getrag engineering for just over $3K. That is fact :cool:

[planetdavo]

Old news Tuna. Mainstream product for the world market, everyone should be able to understand that. Did anyone mention existing internals inside a Mitsu application case too? Now, about all those "affordable" 500Nm rear wheel drive DCT boxes currently in the world Holden can simply bolt up offer for under $50K? :teach:
Have a good day. This thread is boring and repetitive.
PS: Mitsu offer a "mainstream" TC-SST Lancer Ralliart, including in Aus. Rare, and less volume than HSV? :lmao:

[steve_t]

I like how Mitsi DCT doesn't have a reverse gear and gets reverse by combining a few of the forward gears somehow :goodjob: Saves weight and parts :goodjob:
Maybe BorgWarner can do a DCT for Tremec like they did the T56

[Grant]

Hehehe....you're funny :lol: Nice google search too :bow:

You do realize we are talking about a gearbox option here, and not a whole car......don't you? :confused:

I don't see the funny side. And I don't need Google; these are fundamental and obvious considerations to me.

Yes, I realise the discussion is in regards to a gearbox option. You, your beloved Tuna salad, and most other commenters on the topic massively underestimate the cost and complexity of introducing a new component.

The fact that you are ignorant to these issues doesn't mean they don't exist. The fact that you have an opinion doesn't make it valid. This whole thread is an exercise in mental masturbation. You asked a question which cannot be answered by the people who know, which means all you will get is speculation. When someone rains on your parade by introducing some reality, you stamp your feet and cry.

I'll leave you with a quote:

"The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim”. - Gustave Le Bon

[myss427]

I remember hearing a rumor awhile ago, HSV rejected using the hydrolic gear change system from the Astin Martin on the T-56 because it would add over $10,000 to the cost of a GTS. So what would a strong DCT box cost in the end after mark up?

[Martin_D]

You, your beloved Tuna salad

Dolphin friendly too I might add :lol:
It doesnt really matter whether we ever see a DCT in a HSV - just would be a fun drive thats all, and I think the point of the thread :cool:

[Uncle Tone]

I don't see the funny side. And I don't need Google; these are fundamental and obvious considerations to me.

Yes, I realise the discussion is in regards to a gearbox option. You, your beloved Tuna salad, and most other commenters on the topic massively underestimate the cost and complexity of introducing a new component.

The fact that you are ignorant to these issues doesn't mean they don't exist. The fact that you have an opinion doesn't make it valid. This whole thread is an exercise in mental masturbation. You asked a question which cannot be answered by the people who know, which means all you will get is speculation. When someone rains on your parade by introducing some reality, you stamp your feet and cry.

I'll leave you with a quote:

"The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim”. - Gustave Le Bon

All very nice Grant, but a dead Frenchman's ramblings are hardly relevant.....to anything......ever :teach:


YOU MIGHT.
That's the point.
A handful of buyers hasn't got a hope of opening the Holden or HSV wallet, especially when most buyers are more than happy with the existing two options that will cost them (to use your example) $8000 less. Most people simply aren't as passionate as some of you "enthusiusts".
I'll make one comment re your attempts to debate gearbox prices.
The cost of the gearbox from someone like Tremec is just a minor part of the whole picture. Whilst it might not bother backyarders and small operators, manufacturers are expected to develop a product that is reliable, well engineered and devoid of anything that will p!ss off a new car buyer, particular NVH issues.
The cost of the "off the shelf" gearbox is just a p!ss in the ocean compared to the cost of engineering it into the car. However, it is critically important that this cost is incorporated into any arguments relating to the true overall cost of "the gearbox". Fail to do that, and your argument is fundamentally flawed.
Later.

OK, so it takes a million bucks to develop the thing (doubtful, unless someone at HSV is really lax). Divide that into say a thousand cars, representing about 25% of vehicles optioned with DCT. Its $1000 a car. Based on my previous "speculation" regarding DCT pricing which was still very conservative, its still viable, and most achievable at that price.

Davo, the NVH issue, extension housing and adapting it to the engine is the responsibility of the geabox guys and would be included in theire price per unit as it forms part of the gearbox assembly. As I understandf it, the gearbox brains are supplied with the gearbox as well, and just need to be programmed to suit. All we need is the gearbox in, power to it, and some buttons behind the steering wheel and we're ready for testing. Sound simple? It actually is, despite what some might say.

Point is, if Holden themselves as well as HSV don't start embracing more major new tech in the cars instead of persisting with the old stuff, people will wake up and abandon them in droves.

[Uncle Tone]

Dolphin friendly too I might add :lol:
It doesnt really matter whether we ever see a DCT in a HSV - just would be a fun drive thats all, and I think the point of the thread :cool:

Its doubtful whether I would buy another HSV unless it happens.....and yes, it would be a cracker to drive :)

My dream is an all wheel drive DCT equipped GTS with an LS7 in it :D

[ozzgti]

Old news Tuna. Mainstream product for the world market, everyone should be able to understand that. Did anyone mention existing internals inside a Mitsu application case too? Now, about all those "affordable" 500Nm rear wheel drive DCT boxes currently in the world Holden can simply bolt up offer for under $50K? :teach:
Have a good day. This thread is boring and repetitive.
PS: Mitsu offer a "mainstream" TC-SST Lancer Ralliart, including in Aus. Rare, and less volume than HSV? :lmao:

Audi offer the option overseas of a 6 speed manual or 7 speed DC in the S4.

The cost different in the UK is just under 3k AUD. This gearbox is rated at 550NM and is for longitudinal application. As it is used in a 4wd car I'm sure it isn't rocket science to have it working on a RWD.

BTW - My GTI is a manual :)

[Deco28]

The Granite concept at the detroit motor show had a DCT transmission that may have been developed by GM.

I believe in a couple of years time GM will use a DCT transmission across America and with the luming Commodore export deal, DCT here we come!

[planetdavo]

Point is, if Holden themselves as well as HSV don't start embracing more major new tech in the cars instead of persisting with the old stuff, people will wake up and abandon them in droves.

HSV's are often bought new by fat, hairy bogans with a slightly fatter wallet from my experience...:teach:

Yawn. Thought this thread might have improved today, but sadly not.
Think I might go do something interesting like floss my teeth.
This box will come if and when GM US have an available product, and if and when HSV/Holden decide they will gain more sales fitting it than they will lose by not fitting it.
Simple economics, not dreamer wish lists like this thread is.
And that is ALL it is. How many of you have even driven a DCT equipped car? 5%? 10%? Yet Holden/HSV MUST fit it? :confused:
All most of you have done is read magazines and decide you need "the latest thing", coz it's like soooooo cool write man, its tha sh!t....:lmao:

:closed:

[Uncle Tone]

HSV's are often bought new by fat, hairy bogans with a slightly fatter wallet from my experience...:teach:

Yawn. Thought this thread might have improved today, but sadly not.
Think I might go do something interesting like floss my teeth.
This box will come if and when GM US have an available product, and if and when HSV/Holden decide they will gain more sales fitting it than they will lose by not fitting it.
Simple economics, not dreamer wish lists like this thread is.
And that is ALL it is. How many of you have even driven a DCT equipped car? 5%? 10%? Yet Holden/HSV MUST fit it? :confused:
All most of you have done is read magazines and decide you need "the latest thing", coz it's like soooooo cool write man, its tha sh!t....:lmao:

:closed:

Look at it this way..... at least you were able to add to your post count :D

I notice yet again that you can't come up with any meaningful debate to the rest of my post :lol:

I think you might need a bit of a lie down mate. You take things seriously, don't you? :confused: I've driven cars with DCT boxes, hence the reason that my next car will come with one. They are brilliant to use. I realize its probably wishful thinking that HSV will ever fit one, thus my next car probably will not be a Holden, or HSV.

[Uncle Tone]

The Granite concept at the detroit motor show had a DCT transmission that may have been developed by GM.

I believe in a couple of years time GM will use a DCT transmission across America and with the luming Commodore export deal, DCT here we come!

Granite concept?

Got a link?

[mustanger]

HSV's are often bought new by fat, hairy bogans with a slightly fatter wallet from my experience...:teach:


Hey UT, I think Planetdavo is calling you a fat hairy bogan :lol::lmao:.....:popcorn:

[planetdavo]

Forum's are full of dreamers out of touch with the realities of the world. In this case, "the world" is Australia, not "high tech" Europe or "fad loving" Japan.
If we were more like those DCT loving nations, most of you would be driving 4 cyl or 6 cyl powered cars...:slap:
If being different to many of you "enthusiusts" means I need a bit of a lay down, well, yes, I guess I do....
(and I'll do it happily!)
:lmao:

[Wonky]

Hey UT, I think Planetdavo is calling you a fat hairy bogan :lol::lmao:.....:popcorn:

I guess PD has met UT then? :)

[Uncle Tone]

Hey UT, I think Planetdavo is calling you a fat hairy bogan :lol::lmao:.....:popcorn:

So I noticed.....and he's calling you one as well! :spew:

[Uncle Tone]

Forum's are full of dreamers out of touch with the realities of the world. In this case, "the world" is Australia, not "high tech" Europe or "fad loving" Japan.
If we were more like those DCT loving nations, most of you would be driving 4 cyl or 6 cyl powered cars...:slap:
If being different to that many of you "enthusiusts" means I need a bit of a lay down, well, yes, I guess I do....
(and I'll do it happily!)
:lmao:

:lmao: Different is a bit of an understatement in your case mate! :lol:

[planetdavo]

Look at it this way..... at least you were able to add to your post count :D

I realize its probably wishful thinking that HSV will ever fit one, thus my next car probably will not be a Holden, or HSV.

The forum now knows who Tuna's love child is! :stick:
If the lack of a DCT box is enough to steer you away from an otherwise enjoyable car Tone, well, I suggest you don't represent "the majority".
People have been putting up with crap manual shifts since VT LS1, and what did they do about it?
Hmmmm, house of ripshift, harrop and other come to mind, rather than buying something else just because of it.
Why?
Because the car invokes passion, even with an average gearbox. :)

[planetdavo]

:lmao: Different is a bit of an understatement in your case mate! :lol:

I can live with that. I don't really care that much how many people like me on here.
However, many people thank me for helping them out though, so, maybe I'm not as "different" as you suggest... :)

[Uncle Tone]

The forum now knows who Tuna's love child is! :stick:
If the lack of a DCT box is enough to steer you away from an otherwise enjoyable car Tone, well, I suggest you don't represent "the majority".
People have been putting up with crap manual shifts since VT LS1, and what did they do about it?
Hmmmm, house of ripshift, harrop and other come to mind, rather than buying something else just because of it.
Why?
Because the car invokes passion, even with an average gearbox. :)

Passions gone mate, now I want a decent drive. Manuals....any manual....just won't cut it for me anymore I'm afraid. I still want a manual gearbox, but I don't want to have to change gears.....if that makes any sense :lol:

[Uncle Tone]

I can live with that. I don't really care that much how many people like me on here.
However, many people thank me for helping them out though, so, maybe I'm not as "different" as you suggest... :)

Well.....I like you. Always have :love2:

[benniemc]

Granite concept?

Got a link?

http://www.insideline.com/gmc/granite/gmc-granite-concept-2010-detroit-auto-show.html

Doesn't say anything about the box.

[planetdavo]

Passions gone mate, now I want a decent drive. Manuals....any manual....just won't cut it for me anymore I'm afraid. I still want a manual gearbox, but I don't want to have to change gears.....if that makes any sense :lol:

Here you go Tone, your DCT future has arrived...

http://www.ozvolks.com/forums/

[steve_t]

http://www.insideline.com/gmc/granite/gmc-granite-concept-2010-detroit-auto-show.html

Doesn't say anything about the box.

Even if it has a DCT, it's gonna have a turbo'd 1.4 litre engine. I don't think it'll get too close to 550nm :rofl:

[Wonky]

Mods, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease :lock: this thread!! It's going nowhere now.............

[Uncle Tone]

Mods, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease :lock: this thread!! It's going nowhere now.............

Awww....c'mon Wonky, don't be like that :(

Its all in fun....at least for me it is :lmao:

Davo means no harm....he's just got very strong views on things :hitler:

Time to google some DCT suppliers methinks :D Lets have a closer look at these boxes.

This site is a riveting read:

www.dctfacts.com

[planetdavo]

Mods, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease :lock: this thread!! It's going nowhere now.............

It was going nowhere a week ago Wonky.

[Uncle Tone]

It was going nowhere a week ago Wonky.

Maybe so, but as of tonight, as of now, we have a result! A starting point, if you will.

And you, Planetdavo can be the person to revolutionize the company you work for, dragging it kicking and screaming out of the late eighties! :D

Here you go mate, pass on this link to the boss for us:

www.getrag.de/en/252

Yep, a nice 7 speed DCT that handles 600nm of twist. Job done mate, get 'em onto it!! We're relying on you buddy :love2:

[planetdavo]

"Affordable" Tone?
Pretty important word most people can't cannot get their heads around on here...:confused:
Affordable.
Affordable.
Affordable.
Now what's that word that everything relating to a common persons brand like Holden needs to be?
A...F...F...O...R...

[mustanger]

:popcorn:...:beer:....carry on

[planetdavo]

:popcorn:...:beer:....carry on

Sorry, all over for the night.
It's crap, so I'm off to bed.

[macca_779]

How good would the W427 have been with a nice DCT. Hell they were priced like they should have had one

[Uncle Tone]

"Affordable" Tone?
Pretty important word most people can't cannot get their heads around on here...:confused:
Affordable.
Affordable.
Affordable.
Now what's that word that everything relating to a common persons brand like Holden needs to be?
A...F...F...O...R...

D...A...B...L...E :D

I know mate, it would be dear. But the tech is there and ready to be applied. If only, eh? :bawl:


Sorry, all over for the night.
It's crap, so I'm off to bed.

Grumpy-bum :nutkick:


How good would the W427 have been with a nice DCT. Hell they were priced like they should have had one

You have something there Macca....A 7 speed DCT would have really nade the W427 an Aussie supercar. Might have made the asking price a bit more palatable as well (but still way off) :lol:

[Grant]

All very nice Grant, but a dead Frenchman's ramblings are hardly relevant.....to anything......ever :teach:



OK, so it takes a million bucks to develop the thing (doubtful, unless someone at HSV is really lax). Divide that into say a thousand cars, representing about 25% of vehicles optioned with DCT. Its $1000 a car. Based on my previous "speculation" regarding DCT pricing which was still very conservative, its still viable, and most achievable at that price.

Davo, the NVH issue, extension housing and adapting it to the engine is the responsibility of the geabox guys and would be included in theire price per unit as it forms part of the gearbox assembly. As I understandf it, the gearbox brains are supplied with the gearbox as well, and just need to be programmed to suit. All we need is the gearbox in, power to it, and some buttons behind the steering wheel and we're ready for testing. Sound simple? It actually is, despite what some might say.

Point is, if Holden themselves as well as HSV don't start embracing more major new tech in the cars instead of persisting with the old stuff, people will wake up and abandon them in droves.

Holy crap... your logic makes me want to dig my own brains out through my nose with a rusty spoon.

You just MADE UP, INVENTED, FABRICATED a number, pulled it out of your ass, then based on this imaginary number concluded that HSV implementing a DCT box is viable. Wow. Just... wow. Who dresses you in the morning?

You also just further validated your own conclusion by inventing the process for integrating a new gearbox... NVH issues related to integration are absolutely the responsibility of Holden. The linkage from the gearbox to the cabin, every grommet, nut, bolt, interface of any kind, shaft, bearing etc needs to be considered for NVH, heat transmission, durability etc. "Just need to be programmed to suit"? Which data bus does these new "brains" use? Which messages does it require from the PCM, stability control, abs etc? How does the gearbox tell the PCM to blip the throttle? What about the new wire harness? "just" this, "just" that.... You trivialise everything because you have idea of the true complexity, yet you feel qualified to tell the rest of us how "simple" it is?

[Martin_D]

... NVH issues related to integration are absolutely the responsibility of Holden....

But when have they ever considered this? :lol: :eek: :hide:
Still the most NVH at Holden seems to be coming from behind Davos desk :lol:
Doest anyone know how much the 7 speed DCT costs?
Should put in an enquiry for one Tone :lol:

[pro-logic]

7 Speed is so 2006, we should be demanding the ZF 8HP be fitted in everything from the berlina through to the GTS.

[Uncle Tone]

But when have they ever considered this? :lol: :eek: :hide:
Still the most NVH at Holden seems to be coming from behind Davos desk :lol:
Doest anyone know how much the 7 speed DCT costs?
Should put in an enquiry for one Tone :lol:

Bit of NVH coming from my mate Grant as well :lol:

I've emailed one of the sales reps at Getrag......lets see what he comes back with. It does say on their website that they don't sell to the general public, however.

[quinny-8]

In the latset Wheels mag they tested a VW tiguan suv and said that it,s 6 speed auto was far Better than any VW DCT

[SPJ]

In the latset Wheels mag they tested a VW tiguan suv and said that it,s 6 speed auto was far Better than any VW DCT

I drive these vehicles day in day out, and i HAVE to disagree with that wording...
What was the artical? I do agree though that a DSG wouldnt be suited to that kind of application... i.e if they were doing some offroad... Lots of clutch slip wouldnt be good.

Sure, DSG has its flaws, but for the overall drive i would allways choose a DSG for its power delivery, fuel economy, and its great to be able to have FULL control over a two peddel car!

I also have a 6speed auto Falcon, and hate it!

I would love to see some DSG type g/boxes in Australian cars, But i couldnt see it happening for another 8 years... They only just started to play MP3's!

[Uncle Tone]

Holy crap... your logic makes me want to dig my own brains out through my nose with a rusty spoon.

You just MADE UP, INVENTED, FABRICATED a number, pulled it out of your ass, then based on this imaginary number concluded that HSV implementing a DCT box is viable. Wow. Just... wow. Who dresses you in the morning?

You also just further validated your own conclusion by inventing the process for integrating a new gearbox... NVH issues related to integration are absolutely the responsibility of Holden. The linkage from the gearbox to the cabin, every grommet, nut, bolt, interface of any kind, shaft, bearing etc needs to be considered for NVH, heat transmission, durability etc. "Just need to be programmed to suit"? Which data bus does these new "brains" use? Which messages does it require from the PCM, stability control, abs etc? How does the gearbox tell the PCM to blip the throttle? What about the new wire harness? "just" this, "just" that.... You trivialise everything because you have idea of the true complexity, yet you feel qualified to tell the rest of us how "simple" it is?

Dearie, dearie, me! :shock: What an angry man you are! :nono: Keep this up and you'll pop your pooper pipe mate :lol:

If you reckon it takes more than a million bucks to slot this into a VE, then how much more? What would you allow, since you obviously feel as though you have some sort of authority on the subject?

A million bucks development cost to should be more than ample. If they can't develop a gearbox substitution with that money then they shouldn't be building cars.

[steve_t]

I drive these vehicles day in day out, and i HAVE to disagree with that wording...
What was the artical? I do agree though that a DSG wouldnt be suited to that kind of application... i.e if they were doing some offroad... Lots of clutch slip wouldnt be good.

Sure, DSG has its flaws, but for the overall drive i would allways choose a DSG for its power delivery, fuel economy, and its great to be able to have FULL control over a two peddel car!

I also have a 6speed auto Falcon, and hate it!

I would love to see some DSG type g/boxes in Australian cars, But i couldnt see it happening for another 8 years... They only just started to play MP3's!

Alright! Someone who drives these vehicles daily. SPJ, what are the disadvantages of the DCT? I'm guessing low speed manoeuvreing could be a little smoother in a traditional auto with torque converter. What's your view?

[llucie]

I have a VW Crafter with the DSG box (ordered it from the factory) it added $3k to the price but it's far better than a manual box around the city , shifted manually it's shifts are instant , in auto mode (3.5 tonne vehicle) they are a bit slower but the economy doesn't suffer from the auto function , I get 10lt per 100km regardless if it's city stop start or 110kmh highway running and the same empty or fully loaded - IIRC the system was originally invented by "Borg Warner" who never did much with it , VW took it over and perfected it and added their own variations to it.

[planetdavo]

If you reckon it takes more than a million bucks to slot this into a VE, then how much more? What would you allow, since you obviously feel as though you have some sort of authority on the subject?

A million bucks development cost to should be more than ample. If they can't develop a gearbox substitution with that money then they shouldn't be building cars.

Tone, if you reckon it would only take a mil to design, tool up and validate all the unique parts required to adapt an off the shelf DCT into a new car, you are sadly out of touch with reality.
Unique bell housing, extension housing, tailshaft, rear crossmember and mount, shift lever and/or paddles, integration of DCT shift electronics into GMLAN, before even meeting desired NVH and reliability requirements!
One million would be lucky to have even two of those covered. Maybe 10 million would be a better starting point...

[Martin_D]

IIRC the system was originally invented by "Borg Warner" who never did much with it , VW took it over and perfected it and added their own variations to it.

Borg Warner manufacture the DCT system in the current R35 GTR. Its pretty cool, kinda like having an old T5 in a Falcon :)
Thankfully they leave us plenty of room to remanufacture and engineer more durable replacement internals :lol:

[Martin_D]

One million would be lucky to have even two of those covered. Maybe 10 million would be a better starting point...

Not much loose change really for the billion dollar baby :)

[planetdavo]

Not much loose change really for the billion dollar baby :)

Hmmmm, boosting the post count there Tuna...?
:cool:

[planetdavo]

Not much loose change really for the billion dollar baby :)

Old news from the past. Like, 2006...
I only took a low level guess though.
As you have pointed out in the past many times, I'm just a simple parts person, so wouldn't really know. :lmao:
:)

[Martin_D]

I'm just a simple parts person, so wouldn't really know

My point precisely :cool:

[FlatfootV8]

Im thinking about going back to manual in my next car purchase I think the cars are getting more automatic and less driver involvement.

[planetdavo]

My point precisely :cool:

I'm smart enough to notice one thing though.
I'm off the forum for a couple of days. Where's Tuna's regular appearances in this thread? :confused:
I post up, and you take a whole 8 minutes to troll up again! :lmao:

[SPJ]

Alright! Someone who drives these vehicles daily. SPJ, what are the disadvantages of the DCT? I'm guessing low speed manoeuvreing could be a little smoother in a traditional auto with torque converter. What's your view?

I can only speak for VW's DSG, but you do have the traditional roll back with a dsg as it is a manual if on a hill... Although there are thing like hill assist to overcome that.

The other thing with the DSG is that they are an adaptive gearbox, so after a good hiding for a while, reversing up a steep incline or somthing along those lines provides a bit of a bunny hop experiance as the clutch is trying to almost sidestep following your driving habbits for the last trip....

Apart from that, its 'the cats pyjamas'!

[seedyrom]

Hmmmm, boosting the post count there Tuna...?
:cool:
Pot, kettle, black?

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/postwhores.jpg

I wish you would all shut up.

It's the shittest thread on the forum .... and Davo, you've managed to get 41 posts against you name out of it. By the time this crap fizzles out, you'll have over 50. Of course unless you feel the need to keep stoking the fire, and keep this thread running. You might be able to get 100 outta this one!
Your point of view could have been expressed in 2 posts.
Just cause someone says something you don't agree with, let it be!
It's their opinion. You've had your reply, let them have theirs.

We actually have people with DCT experience trying to add useful contributions to this thread, yet it is absolutely buried by this e-penis stroking postwhoring.


I'm smart enough to notice one thing though.
I'm off the forum for a couple of days. Where's Tuna's regular appearances in this thread?
I post up, and you take a whole 8 minutes to troll up again!
No one noticed you were away.
The conspiracy theory hasn't got basis.

And repesct isn't garnered by post count.

Calm down.
All of you.

:lock:

[Uncle Tone]

Tone, if you reckon it would only take a mil to design, tool up and validate all the unique parts required to adapt an off the shelf DCT into a new car, you are sadly out of touch with reality.
Unique bell housing, extension housing, tailshaft, rear crossmember and mount, shift lever and/or paddles, integration of DCT shift electronics into GMLAN, before even meeting desired NVH and reliability requirements!
One million would be lucky to have even two of those covered. Maybe 10 million would be a better starting point...



Ten mill on a gearbox change? :shock:

How did you come up with that?

And why is it that you have double the posts in this thread compard to me? :confused: