Mercedes Benz safety expert on speed limits

[Vulture]

LINK (http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/speed-doesnt-kill-says-benz-20100304-pjin.html)


The vice president of safety development for Mercedes-Benz, Ulrich Mellinghoff, says crash avoidance systems, better roads and more roundabouts would do more to cut the road toll than tougher speeding laws

[1R8_HSV]

What he says makes a lot of sense, hopefully some of it will filter through to influential people in our country.

[Marco]

...and for that matter, how much of the improvement in the road toll in recent years is down to things like better tyres, airbags, ABS brakes and ESP rather than pinging people for being 3km/h over?

[superoo]

Whilst the idea of passing the responsibilty onto drivers to determine appropriate speed makes sense and in theory is a far better method than the draconian laws in place here, it requires all drivers to have a very good attitude in regard to looking out for and after your fellow road users and unfortunately, too many of our road users lack this in spades (not to mention general driving ability).

Such rules would be great but aussie drivers would need a serious attitude adjustment and additional driver training before even thinking about something like this which is a real pity.

[iloveholden]

The man speaks a lot of truth and puts forward some great points and rules that would be great in certain parts of Australia...but as mentioned the hardest change here in Australia would be peoples attitude. Second being, car user skill. There are just too many bad drivers on the road here today to have no speed limit roads like a German autobarn.

Dont get me wrong id love to see the new freeway down to bunbury etc an autobarn style road but it would be slightly scary having people around you traveling at great speed who really dont understand common road curiosity or general road rules...

Dont even get me started on roundabouts, people still have no f$^kng idea how to use them and when and how to indicate!

[offshore]

It really is great driving in Europe. Even in places without autobahns like in Germany. In France the general freeway limit is 130 and 110 in the wet but the general flow of traffic in the fast lane is around 150 to 160 and you don't have to continuously look around for cops. I was doing flat chat once in a hired fiat punto haha and was maxing out around 130 or 140 and I got past by a car full of cops who were laughing at me ringing the guts out of a hire car.

Then you get back to Australia and you get a shock at just how strict and over the top our speed limits are. A massive country like Australia shouldn't be restricted to pathetic 100 zones in the middle of no where. The major factor then and especially in NT is fatigue. Pure and simple the only reason why we have such draconian laws is to raise money. I mean how pathetic is it when you have to drive in Victoria and continuously look at the speedo to make sure your not 1km over the limit.

[macca33]

The argument / observation is not valid in the context that he proposes.

Benz bloke lives in Europe. We live in Australia - a WORLD apart, figuratively and literally.

What the 'expert' has failed to address are the following FACTS:-

-The Benz employs the use of comprehensive active safety systems - beyond what our cars have,

-German / Euro roads - Autobahns in particular, are like chalk and cheese, in comparison to our roads,

-Germans actually have to EARN a licence, they aren't simply raffled off at a local road registry every Monday,

-In a country such as Germany, with the population to support the infrastructure, how many miles of roads do they have to maintain - considerably less than is the case in this country?

Whilst I gladly concede that the term 'Speed kills' is a ridiculously simplified misnomer - the facts are plain to see, Australia has the lowest road carnage record presently, due to specific programs that are focused upon reducing the rate of death / serious injury.

We will never get to zero - it is an impossibility whilst humans control the machines and the laws of probability exist, however, government has the responsibility to employ the necessary mechanisms to minimise the road toll.

The Benz bloke simply wants his brand to sell more cars!

cheers

[GHZ28]

Those who say how superior the German Autobahns are to our roads I feel have either:

a) Never driven on them
b) If they have, primarily spent their time on the major routes in the East and South of Germany, eg A8, A3 or A9. These are part of the super-highways system with banked turns and runway smooth surfaces.

Those three roads in particular are very good and link the major places like Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart and Berlin and have a mix of both unrestricted and speed limited sections.

The vast majority of the deristricted sections which remain across the rest of the country are roads very similar to any divided 4 lane highway in any other country in the world but with a higher standard of maintenance. Patchwork for instance is as smooth as the main surface, unlike the crap jobs done on road repairs in Australia. Some sections of the deristricted roads don't even have a barrier on the right hand side of the roadway....have photos taken on the A1 north of Hamburg as proof.

[Party Pete]

I don't know that I agree Macca. Have you ever seen the videos of people driving on the autobahns? They are generally only 2 lanes each way and have considerable traffic on them. They have much worse weather conditions for driving as well. Conditions in Australia are generally much more conducive to high speeds than the US. Why, for example, is the Hume Freeway 110km/h not higher? It has a very, very low road toll and is beautifully made and has pretty low traffic. Yet despite all of that, they are putting more and more speed cameras on it. It is pretty obvious that it is all about money not safety.

One of the points made in the interview was that the low and strictly enforced speed limits promotes an attitude of, if I drive below the speed limit I am safe and don't have to concentrate. I've noted this attitude becoming ever more apparent in Australia as the focus on speed gets ever more rigid. You only have to see some of the threads on here to witness it. I strongly believe that part of the cause of the poor driving is actually the governments policy.

There is no doubt that the license requirements in Germany are much tougher than here. But the point being made was that despite not having a focus on speed in Germany, they have seen similar or greater reductions in their road toll than countries like Australia that have focussed on speed. He puts the reductions down to improvements in car safety and road safety. It seems a fairly reasonable conclusion to draw to me, yet in Australia the safety experts claim that the focus on speed and alcohol is the sole reason for the reduced road toll over the last 40 years, and no credit is given to other factors like cars and roads. In other words, the road toll is being used as an excuse to fleece the general public. You only have to look at the way that the various police commissioners carry on. When there is a spate of deaths we get impassioned pleas for drivers to just slow down, irregardless of whether the crashes are speed related or not. If a good road toll figure comes in they tell us it is is proof that their policies are working. Talk about taking the credit but never the blame.

Anyway, it is nice to see some sense being spoken on the topic but I have no doubt that it won't be listened to by many countries which are addicted to the financial benefits of fining people.

[Evman]

It is pretty obvious that it is all about money not safety.

Got it in one. How will they be able to book people for speeding if there is no speed limit? When revenue from traffic infringements are already factored into the following years budget you simply know that they're not going to do anything that'd risk decreasing that revenue.

[planetdavo]

Macca is giving a logical response to the subject. It's very predictable that an enthusiust forum will dish out a negative vibe to all things speed enforcement related. Let's be honest, "enthusiusts" often have a particularly high opinion of their driving "abilities", so feel they are rather hard done by...
:hide:

[seldo]

Having driven probably 20,000km on European roads over last 20 years, there is no doubt that most of their major roads are not significantly better than our "good" roads, although as GHZ28 notes - they are definitely maintained to a better standard.
The major difference that I have seen on each trip is "attitude". For a start, no-one glares at you or makes rude signs if you happen to be travelling faster than them, wish to overtake, wish to blend-in, or even if you want to max-out whatever you happen to be driving. They quickly get out of your way when they see you coming and use the mirrors and inicators constantly.
You often see a big Benz or BMW coming in the mirror half a K back doing warp-speed in the outside lane with his blinker constantly flashing left (LHD) and if you haven't vacated the left lane by the time he's 200m away you get the head-light flash as well, and then they blast past at about 250kph. But no-one takes offence! Everyone respects the right of the other to drive as they wish, and try to get out of the way.
In many places you will see a row of speed signs indicating max and minimum speeds for the various lanes - a great idea.
As a matter of interest, in all the K's that I've travelled over there, I've never seen an accident, or the aftermath of one. Unfortunately something you certainly can't say here - I would almost bet my house that in any trip of 150km or more I will see an accident or the evidence of one.
But - it all comes down to attitude - we seem to think that we each individually own this piece of road at this time, and anyone else is trespassing.
Until the authorities post sensible speed limits, sensible policing of them, and adress actual "black-spots" rather than just building a nice new wide, flat, straight road and then milking every speeding cent out of it possible, we will have a general disrespect for all speed limits. There are places where they are really necessary, but they are rarely addressed.

[GHZ28]

On the subject of the cars being better, that really is true and I am sure is part of the reasons for the safer travelling on Euro roads. Like Seldo, I have done 10s of thousands of km in Europe over the past 15 years. In fact we did just over 5000km in 3 weeks in September. Including leaving Stockholm at 0530 and driving to Frankfurt (just over 1500km) including a ferry transfer from Denmark to Germany, and still got to the Motor Show in time to spend over 2 hours there before it closed at 1900.

One just has to consider that the basic cabs in Germany are C Class and E Class Mercedes diesels, so the cab that picks you up at the airport will probably have at least 7 airbags and arguably the world's best anti-collision systems as standard. Not some 400000k old Falcon sedan with a single driver side airbag, and the driver doesn't even have to wear his seat belt at 110km/h on the motorways.

The vehicle dynamics of Euro cars in general HAVE to be higher than the rest of the world because of the deristricted autobahns in Germany and Luxembourg. Each and every one of them can legally be driven at their maximum speed every day of their life.

[nudenut]

Until the authorities post sensible speed limits, sensible policing of them, and adress actual "black-spots" rather than just building a nice new wide, flat, straight road and then milking every speeding cent out of it possible, we will have a general disrespect for all speed limits. There are places where they are really necessary, but they are rarely addressed.
There's the root of half the issues - excellently put seldo. There has been a terrible country road toll here in WA, and for years I've said that the people who set and enforce metropolitan limits must take a share of responsibility for that. It's absolutely no surprise that inexperienced drivers who are used to 70km/h limits on dual carriageways with no building, wide verges and few intersections don't have respect for speed limits, because the bulk of the time, 70km/h is clearly not the maximum safe speed on roads like these.

When they get to winding country roads with 110km/h limit and treat that limit similarly (ie "it's ridiculous, I can clearly go faster than that without a problem"), either they learn quickly or die.

[Vulture]

Those who say how superior the German Autobahns are to our roads I feel have either:

a) Never driven on them
b) If they have, primarily spent their time on the major routes in the East and South of Germany, eg A8, A3 or A9. These are part of the super-highways system with banked turns and runway smooth surfaces.

Exactly, there are many people who think these European roads with much higher or no speed limit are always superior to our good quality divided motorways - simply untrue as you've pointed out.


Got it in one. How will they be able to book people for speeding if there is no speed limit? When revenue from traffic infringements are already factored into the following years budget you simply know that they're not going to do anything that'd risk decreasing that revenue.

In Victoria that number is nearly HALF A BILLION DOLLARS!! Can you believe that? The government actually budgets on fleecing the motorist to the tune of nearly $500m annually. Clearly, not raking that in would put a sizable hole in the budget.

It frustrates me to see the poor driving behaviour on the roads - all occurring well below the speed limit. I do a lot of driving between Brisbane and Kingaroy and cannot fathom how, in pouring rain, drivers do not have their headlights on and do not slow down. Silver cars, in particular, with no lights on are impossible to see. I estimated one in three cars did not make themselves adequately visible. Parking lights are for just that - parking, they do little to increase visibility.

[NickS]

I do a lot of driving between Brisbane and Kingaroy and cannot fathom how, in pouring rain, drivers do not have their headlights on and do not slow down. Silver cars, in particular, with no lights on are impossible to see. I estimated one in three cars did not make themselves adequately visible. Parking lights are for just that - parking, they do little to increase visibility.

Agree 100% ...

I personally think it should be law that 100km/h or above speed limit (or even less?) = lights on. Having your headlights on when driving on freeway / country roads, rain or not, makes it so much easier to see every other car on the road (and for them to see you).

I never turn mine off ... when the car starts they are already on, never touch the switch, they turn themselves off after I've stopped the car. Whatever helps avoid every other idiot on the road.

[Evman]

Get caught speeding <10km/h in W.A. and you get fined $75 and no points taken off. The only reason I can think that they'd implement such a "punishment" is because almost everyone can afford to pay $75, and by not subtracting any points the motorists can offend as often as they'd like to pay. Put simply if you speed but less than 10km/h over the limit, you'll never lose your licence.

I thought 10km/h made a huge difference in the event of a crash :hmmm:

[HSV Manta]

There's the root of half the issues - excellently put seldo. There has been a terrible country road toll here in WA, and for years I've said that the people who set and enforce metropolitan limits must take a share of responsibility for that. It's absolutely no surprise that inexperienced drivers who are used to 70km/h limits on dual carriageways with no building, wide verges and few intersections don't have respect for speed limits, because the bulk of the time, 70km/h is clearly not the maximum safe speed on roads like these.

When they get to winding country roads with 110km/h limit and treat that limit similarly (ie "it's ridiculous, I can clearly go faster than that without a problem"), either they learn quickly or die.

Disagree.

Most of the people who crash and die on country roads actually live in the country.

[seldo]

Agree 100% ...

I personally think it should be law that 100km/h or above speed limit (or even less?) = lights on. Having your headlights on when driving on freeway / country roads, rain or not, makes it so much easier to see every other car on the road (and for them to see you).

I never turn mine off ... when the car starts they are already on, never touch the switch, they turn themselves off after I've stopped the car. Whatever helps avoid every other idiot on the road.
In Scandanavia where it is low-vis much of the year, it is mandatory to have your lights come on automatically with the ignition - as it should be.
Here - you get fined.....

[Evman]

Country driving is in a completely different league to metro driving. Unless you've experienced long hours of monotonous single lane highway then you just don't know what it's like. You only have to drift to the right by 1m and you're in the other lane, potentially with oncoming traffic with a relative approach speed of up to 220km/h (more if one or both vehicles are speeding). A large proportion of county deaths occur on straight sections of road.

[nudenut]

Disagree.

Most of the people who crash and die on country roads actually live in the country.
Of course - country drivers drive in the country all the time, so have a lot more chances to crash. Doesn't change what I was saying.

I can't find any statistics on it, but I would bet that if ranked by rural kms driven, metropolitan drivers aged 17-25 would figure even more disproportionately in the fatalities statistics than they do overall. Certainly the percentage of crashes in rural areas rises around holiday periods, which would suggest metropolitan drivers crashing in the country.

[XUV]

Country driving is in a completely different league to metro driving. Unless you've experienced long hours of monotonous single lane highway ..........A large proportion of county deaths occur on straight sections of road.

at a mind numbing 100kph .

130kph across the board , lose licence at 135 kph .

[Jarhead]

Having driven probably 20,000km on European roads over last 20 years, there is no doubt that most of their major roads are not significantly better than our "good" roads, although as GHZ28 notes - they are definitely maintained to a better standard.
The major difference that I have seen on each trip is "attitude". For a start, no-one glares at you or makes rude signs if you happen to be travelling faster than them, wish to overtake, wish to blend-in, or even if you want to max-out whatever you happen to be driving. They quickly get out of your way when they see you coming and use the mirrors and inicators constantly.
You often see a big Benz or BMW coming in the mirror half a K back doing warp-speed in the outside lane with his blinker constantly flashing left (LHD) and if you haven't vacated the left lane by the time he's 200m away you get the head-light flash as well, and then they blast past at about 250kph. But no-one takes offence! Everyone respects the right of the other to drive as they wish, and try to get out of the way.
In many places you will see a row of speed signs indicating max and minimum speeds for the various lanes - a great idea.
As a matter of interest, in all the K's that I've travelled over there, I've never seen an accident, or the aftermath of one. Unfortunately something you certainly can't say here - I would almost bet my house that in any trip of 150km or more I will see an accident or the evidence of one.
But - it all comes down to attitude - we seem to think that we each individually own this piece of road at this time, and anyone else is trespassing.
Until the authorities post sensible speed limits, sensible policing of them, and adress actual "black-spots" rather than just building a nice new wide, flat, straight road and then milking every speeding cent out of it possible, we will have a general disrespect for all speed limits. There are places where they are really necessary, but they are rarely addressed.



Hey Seldo,

Your post is the best summary of "our" driving vs "their" driving that I have read. Top job!

The real problem with speed on Australian roads is the speed variance rather than the outright velocity of each car. I remember reading that for every 25% speed variance (eg car A doing 100km/h with car B doing 125km/h on the same road) the chances of an accident quadruple (spell?). In other words if they increased the speed limit on a good quality freeway to 130km/h (that is a reasonable limit for many roads in Aust) there would still be cars doing 80-100km/h. In this example the probability of having an accident increase significanly.

In the scenario described by Seldo above, the faster car should be able to scoot past in the fast lane without fear of some A-hole hogging the fast lane thinking they have the 'right' to be there.

As much as I would love to see the open limit increased to 130km/h I honestly don't believe the driver attitude in Australia is ready for it. Ultimately the people that make these decisions are politically motivated. What could a politician possibly gain from a campaign to increase the speed limit? The potential political fallout will probably mean it will never happen.

[planetdavo]

One thing that just about ALWAYS gets ignored is the fact that Australia is approximately the size of ten European countries, yet has the population of only one of them. Simplisticly, that's ten times the taxes for the same area.
And people wonder why Australia has such poor roads overall...:confused:

[Party Pete]

I totally agree with the poor driver attitudes in Australia and unfortunately SA is worse than the average. But, there is a chicken and egg thing here that gets ignored. Driving is better in these countries at least partially because they do have higher speed limits. 100km/h on many of our roads is totally mind numbing and people drive around in a fog of boredom. The thread only a few days ago was a case in point. Someone is daring to drive at 130km/h on a freeway and someone pulls right in front of them without looking properly and consensus on this forum seems to be that it is the person speeding, not the person who doesn't look before changing lanes, that is most to blame. If people were allowed to drive at higher speeds then other drivers would expect to have cars closing on them quicker and would learn to look. My experience as someone who spent many years living and driving in the country is that driving standards have dropped since this obsession with speed enforcement started.

For the record, I am not advocating unlimited roads, but surely more sensible limits should be considered. This blanket 100 or 110 is just stupid and promotes boredom and inattention.

[mickeyVX350]

Mind numbing... YEP! Australian road speeds need review. I drive a lot, I mean, a lot!!! and I am amazed at the difference in travel time that even 110 can make.

Our cars are better, the road toll is declining, road quality is on the improve. I think it is about time the driver got some reward, not just another kick in the bum.

I find that speed isn't an issue for me as I travel either Ballarat to SA or to Gippsland, but boredom is. Getting on and off the road reduces the window for accidents.

[Party Pete]

I suspect that if our pollies had to drive interstate instead of getting on planes paid for by us they might have a different view on speed limits. Indeed, I suspect that those most opposed to reviewing speed limits up on open roads are those who use them the least.

[planetdavo]

In Scandanavia where it is low-vis much of the year, it is mandatory to have your lights come on automatically with the ignition - as it should be.
Here - you get fined.....

If anyone running distracting "look at me" w@nker lights, I mean fog lights, gets fined, they deserve whatever they get.

[exwrx]

The argument / observation is not valid in the context that he proposes.

Benz bloke lives in Europe. We live in Australia - a WORLD apart, figuratively and literally.

What the 'expert' has failed to address are the following FACTS:-

-The Benz employs the use of comprehensive active safety systems - beyond what our cars have,

-German / Euro roads - Autobahns in particular, are like chalk and cheese, in comparison to our roads,

-Germans actually have to EARN a licence, they aren't simply raffled off at a local road registry every Monday,

-In a country such as Germany, with the population to support the infrastructure, how many miles of roads do they have to maintain - considerably less than is the case in this country?

Whilst I gladly concede that the term 'Speed kills' is a ridiculously simplified misnomer - the facts are plain to see, Australia has the lowest road carnage record presently, due to specific programs that are focused upon reducing the rate of death / serious injury.

We will never get to zero - it is an impossibility whilst humans control the machines and the laws of probability exist, however, government has the responsibility to employ the necessary mechanisms to minimise the road toll.

The Benz bloke simply wants his brand to sell more cars!

cheers

To be fair Macca, IMHO you are underselling his views.

Yes, Mercs have comprehensive safety systems, but the point is to encourage this technology to trickle down to all makes, and to reduce the age of our car fleet. Besides, not everyone in Germany drives mercs, they have Ladas and Kias as well;

Yes their roads are better,we should be placing a higher priority on road maintenance and improvement rather than letting our govts wriggle out of it;

Yes their licensing system is tougher, but what are our govts doing in this area? SFA;

Yes they have a larger population, we have to prioritise our spending where it will save lives. How much of fine revenue and fuel excise is channeled back to our road network?;

Re speed kills yes it is a gross simplification, just as it is a gross simplification for our govts to take credit for the reducing road toll trend without giving credit to safer cars. I am sick to death of talking to pollies who patronise us with this mantra;

Yes I agree that it will never be zero, but as you state our govts 'have a responsibility to employ the necessary mechanisms to reduce the road toll'.

We have allowed our govts to take the lazy option of only using one or two mechanisms - the merc engineer is merely outlining other significant mechanisms that are proven to work.

Yes the benz bloke wants to sell more benzes, but you would have to agree they take safety more seriously than our own elected representatives.

Not having a go, just trying to place these things in context.

[LJ03L]

And people wonder why Australia has such poor roads overall...:confused:

And possibly becuase the governments keep pissing money up the wall..



If anyone running distracting "look at me" w@nker lights, I mean fog lights, gets fined, they deserve whatever they get.

And heads up to all the fog light retards out there- Changes to the Australian Road Rules from March 2010 to clarifiy the meaning or intent of the rule:

• Drivers must not use front fog lights unless the driver is driving in fog or other hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility.

Having said that we have police cars getting round with fog lights in the ACT. Well done great example.

[Evman]

And people wonder why Australia has such poor roads overall...:confused:

Probably something to do with the wicked bell towers and Ferris wheels we have.

We also have 1000 times the royalties from natural resource mining compared to a lot of small Euro countries.