Direct Injection

[monaro2003]

Hi all,
Just wondering, I have a Monaro series 3 LS1. Is it possible to remove existing injection system and put direct injection as they are now put on the new commodores. If it can be done how would you go about it and would anyone have an idea about the cost?
Regards

monaro2003

[swingtan]

sort answer....

No.


The new SIDI one the commodore is for the V6 and is not available on the V8.


Long answer....

No......

The SIDI system injects fuel into the combustion chamber, hence the term "Direct Injection". Because it's only available on the V6, you can only get V6 heads that have the correct fittings for the direct injectors. You simply can't fit them to a V8 head.

Simon

[monaro2003]

Thanks for that . When we were exporting the Monaro to the States, was the set up of the engine the same set up as ours? I thought they did have direct injection. Not sure, I am trying to do some research.

[macca_779]

Thanks for that . When we were exporting the Monaro to the States, was the set up of the engine the same set up as ours? I thought they did have direct injection. Not sure, I am trying to do some research.

No it was the same as we used it although the later ones were fitted with LS2's

Mate do some research on DI (wikipedia and what not). You'll come to realise its not just a simple replacing and repositioning of injectors.

[monaro2003]

will do, thanks for that helps clear things

[mickeyVX350]

I am curious about retrofitting DI to a Non DI alloytec.. My Adventra has 220K on it.... is on LPG and is a little asthmatic! I didn't want an 8, but the DI thing looks like an attractive retrofit.

[macca_779]

I am curious about retrofitting DI to a Non DI alloytec.. My Adventra has 220K on it.... is on LPG and is a little asthmatic! I didn't want an 8, but the DI thing looks like an attractive retrofit.

Again do some research about what DI actually is (it's clear many people have no idea). Then once you understand that ask yourself what the costs involved would be when you need pretty much a whole new fuel system. Long parts of the entire engine, looms, controller etc, etc. Ie Forget it.

[SS Enforcer]

Di is direct cylinder injection where the injector is in the cyl head and squirts directly into the combustion chamber. We currently have Direct Port injection where the injectors squirt into the intake manifold just before the entry to the cyl head. This is still a very effective form of fuel delivery.

cheers

[mickeyVX350]

Sorry Ryan, some of us people with "below average intellect" just figured we'd ask for a brief answer... I mean, who would have thought that you'd retrofit EFI to an old 5L or something silly like that! In the case of my question, I figured it was probably more valid than the OP!

Next time I shall ask the internet before asking the internet!

What would I know, I am just a dumb lecturer!

Sorry to upset you!

Seriously, I can't see why it couldn't be done!

[macca_779]

Sorry Ryan, some of us people with "below average intellect" just figured we'd ask for a brief answer... I mean, who would have thought that you'd retrofit EFI to an old 5L or something silly like that! In the case of my question, I figured it was probably more valid than the OP!

Next time I shall ask the internet before asking the internet!

What would I know, I am just a dumb lecturer!

Sorry to upset you!

Seriously, I can't see why it couldn't be done!

Don't be like that. Com'on, it was a pretty out there question, think before you speak and all that. But to digress back. Anything like that "can" be done mate. But its just way to much work and money to bother. Seriously I have no doubt it would be cheaper to do a changeover vehicle.

But what would I know. I'm just a dumb RAAFie. :)

[White Rider]

Retrofitting multiport on a carb motor is a lot easier than DI on an multiport motor.

As for running LPG in DI... noone has done this yet (to my knowledge), they only just went mainstream with liquid multiport the last few years.

[blownba]

Retrofitting multiport on a carb motor is a lot easier than DI on an multiport motor.

As for running LPG in DI... noone has done this yet (to my knowledge), they only just went mainstream with liquid multiport the last few years.


Hate to prove ya wrong but.....
There are several LPG systems that suit direct injected petrol engines.
Most of the crappy ones switch off the petrol injector and spray LPG vapour into the ports like the current LPG injection systems. Problem with doing that is the petrol injector does not last very long. It basically melts due to no fuel to cool it.

Our new system actually shuts off the petrol to the injector and allows the same injector to deliver LIQUID LPG!!!!

This system is just starting to be sold in volume in Europe.
Here in Aus. we are still waiting for the R&D testing to be finalised. But I can tell you there is going to be LPG systems available for you SIDI engines very shortly!!!

The system I am talking about is made by Icom in Italy. We all know of their JTG liquid injection system and how good that is..... Well I let ya in on a secret..... The direct injection liquid LPG system by Icom is EVEN BETTER that the JTG liquid injection!!!!
The benefits are even greater than the JTG system. And performance is astounding!!!


Here is a simple diagram of the system to whet your appetites!!!

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/a-direct-injection-system-for-liqui.jpg


Enjoy!!!

[Highway]

Heard about this new system.

Something to think about for my next car.

Maybe 3 months it will be available last time I asked.

Any performance figures available yet in comparison to the Liquid system/petrol ?

Mike

[tamerovski]

[QUOTE= This system is just starting to be sold in volume in Europe.
Here in Aus. we are still waiting for the R&D testing to be finalised. But I can tell you there is going to be LPG systems available for you SIDI engines very shortly!!!
[/QUOTE]

Do you know how long to go before the system is out on the market? We bought a my10 caprice SIDI and going to convert it into a taxi in melbourne but stressing out coz. no lpg is available for the engine? hoping something comes out within a month otherwise gonna hurt my wallet!!!!

[ratter]

Talk to the guys at ALPGWH, they may require a car for testing and a taxi would be a good choice, I know they used a local taxi for some of their JTG lquid injection systems

[PoweredByCNG]

We currently have Direct Port injection...

No such thing. It's either direct injection (direct meaning internal mixture formation in the combustion chamber), or indirect (port or otherwise) injection (external mixture formation outside of the combustion chamber).

[APS Fston]

A.P.S. service centre is work on the Direct injection LPG system with ALPGW developers and its going to be an eye opener for the LPG industry.....

[macca_779]

A.P.S. service centre is work on the Direct injection LPG system with ALPGW developers and its going to be an eye opener for the LPG industry.....

Looking forward to seeing the results guys. Good work pioneering this technology.

[Evman]

No such thing. It's either direct injection (direct meaning internal mixture formation in the combustion chamber), or indirect (port or otherwise) injection (external mixture formation outside of the combustion chamber).

Is it dark or is there a lack of light? Talk about clutching at straws. There's nothing wrong with Direct Port Injection. It is doing exactly what it's saying; injecting into the port.

According to an engineer that worked with HSV when they were doing the R&D for the VZ LS2 (who now works in the same company as me :D);

Modern direct (cylinder) injection isn't just a matter of getting fuel into the combustion chamber. The real work is in determining where and how much fuel is injected. Combustion chambers have hot and cold spots, so well designed injection systems will inject more fuel to the hot spots (thus cooling them) and less fuel to the cold spots. This results in a more equalised chamber temperature, which in turn allows a higher mean chamber temperature, better combustion and greater efficiency.

To add another level of complexity the combustion itself is analysed. If poor combustion is occurring in one part of the chamber then less fuel will be injected there, resulting in a lower inefficiency. In turn, an area of good combustion will have extra fuel injected. Again this helps to equalise temperatures and ultimately results in better efficiency.

Balancing the above (and more, I'm sure) into an effective combination is nothing short of a phenomenal undertaking. It's pretty quickly that you realise the design and engineering involved in creating a well designed direct injection system would cost hundreds of times more than any after market supplier could justify. Especially when considering that every different engine design the kit is used for would likely require a complete redesign of the system.

[PoweredByCNG]

Is it dark or is there a lack of light? Talk about clutching at straws. There's nothing wrong with Direct Port Injection. It is doing exactly what it's saying; injecting into the port.

Not at all. Direct injection means just that - injecting fuel directly into the cylinders. Port injection is indirect injection because the fuel is injected before the cylinders.

So by your terms, all port injected engines are direct injected engines? What nonsense...

[Evman]

Still got a firm grip on those straws don't you. I agree, referring to port injection simply as "direct injection" is an incorrect statement, however no one has done that. Referring to port injection as "direct port injection" is fine. The fuel is being injected directly into the intake port.

Would you prefer "indirect port injection"? What nonsense.

[APS Fston]

Sorry never heard of direct port injection.

Some gas installers are calling there vapour injection systems this but its just trying to fool the end user....

[Evman]

So you've never heard of it but you've heard of it?

It's a round-about way of saying port injection but it's certainly not incorrect like some would have you believe. It's simply stating the obvious.

[APS Fston]

Sorry your right.

[Evman]

Yeah I know :jester: I think we're just looking at it from different points of view. I'm looking at it as a statement, you guys are looking at it as a name (for lack of a better word). As a statement it's perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it apart from stating the obvious. It's certainly not indirect port injection and is like saying the round wheel or the electrical headlights. As a name for a specific way of fuel injection it lends itself to confusion with direct (combustion chamber) injection.

[PoweredByCNG]

It's certainly not indirect port injection

For the last time, YES IT IS!

Port Injection IS INDIRECT INJECTION!

I hate repeating myself but I will do it once more. Direct = fuel is injected and mixed with air in the combustion chamber. Indirect = fuel is mixed with air before it reaches the combustion chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

[APS Fston]

What he said:rofl:

[oranpark_addict]

Facepalm:jester::jester:

[LuisS]

Actually Mick,

It really depends on whether the henway hysteresis has a positive piecost delta or a negative bias.

..can be looked at either way :rofl:

[Evman]

For the last time, YES IT IS!

Port Injection IS INDIRECT INJECTION!

I hate repeating myself but I will do it once more. Direct = fuel is injected and mixed with air in the combustion chamber. Indirect = fuel is mixed with air before it reaches the combustion chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

Find me where in that link it says specifically "indirect port injection". Like I said, I'm looking at it in the form of a statement. HOW THE F*** is the fuel being injected indirectly into the intake port? It isn't. In an "indirect injection" setup the fuel is injected directly into the intake port. By saying "direct port injection" the "direct" is a given. It doesn't need to be said, but it is not an incorrect statement.

You suck at proving your point. I've explained why we obviously have a different point of view, so take your blinkers off and think about what the statement "direct port injection" means. FOR THE LAST TIME, it means the fuel is being injected directly into the intake port. I am not trying to rename a design principal. I am describing a statement.

[Evman]

Actually Mick,

It really depends on whether the henway hysteresis has a positive piecost delta or a negative bias.

..can be looked at either way :rofl:

I've never heard of it.

But I've heard of it.

[oranpark_addict]

ROFL lets agree to disagree. Totally understand what your saying Ev but it has been taken in a very literal sense..:)

[PoweredByCNG]

Find me where in that link it says specifically "indirect port injection". Like I said, I'm looking at it in the form of a statement. HOW THE F*** is the fuel being injected indirectly into the intake port? It isn't. In an "indirect injection" setup the fuel is injected directly into the intake port. By saying "direct port injection" the "direct" is a given. It doesn't need to be said, but it is not an incorrect statement.

So you're telling me that Holden's port injected Alloytec engine can not be referred to as a "Spark Ignition Direct Injection" engine? What a load of crock!

[Evman]

I don't think even you know what you're talking about now. Are you now telling me I can refer to a port injected engine as being "direct injected"? Read what you've written and sort your shit out.

Seeing as I guess you meant to type "now" instead of "not", no I'm not saying that. I am saying it can be described as a spark ignition direct port injection engine. That is simply a statement saying that the fuel is injected directly into the intake port and is ignited by a spark. The fuel isn't being injected into anything else and then transferred into the intake port, the injector sits inside it and squirts the fuel straight it. Straight in = direct.

Thanks oranpark_addict. I'm glad someone understands what I mean by 'describing a statement'.

[PoweredByCNG]

I don't think even you know what you're talking about now. Are you now telling me I can refer to a port injected engine as being "direct injected"? Read what you've written and sort your shit out.

I think you need to chill and consider that typos can and do occur.

What I was meaning to say:

"So you're telling me that Holden's port injected Alloytec engine can now be referred to as a "Spark Ignition Direct Injection" engine? What a load of crock!"

Anyway, if you still believe that a port injected engine is a direct injected engine, you're only fooling yourself.

[Evman]

Anyway, if you still believe that a port injected engine is a direct injected engine, you're only fooling yourself.


Seeing as I guess you meant to type "now" instead of "not", no I'm not saying that.

Read what I wrote. It's all there spelled out as simply as I could put it but still for some reason it's not getting through to you.

Try this progression;

In a port injection setup the fuel is injected into the intake port.

In a port injection setup the fuel is injected straight into the intake port.

In a port injection setup the fuel is injected directly into the intake port.

None of those are incorrect statements. Oh, but look at that; "fuel is injected directly into the intake port". Therefore, describing "port injection" as "direct port injection" is not an incorrect statement because the "direct" is a given, albeit unnecessary.

[aussiev8]

Getting back to the reason for this thread...

Has a LPG system been released on the Australian market which directly injects liquid LPG into the cylinder head. (Not vapour into the port haha).

Indications of cost would be useful.

[ratter]

No not yet, and there will be no kit that will be able to be fitted to do this unless the vehicle is manufactured as a direct injection (into the combustion chamber) engine