Accident repair with filler - OK?

[chris_vysv8]

Guys, I'm after some opinions on the use of filler/bog in panel repair. My car is currently being worked on following an accident. I went in to the panel shop today to check on progress and was shown some photos of the repair work so far. One thing that caught my eye was that the rear door, which originally was supposed to get a new door skin, has been filled instead. The door had a deep gash about 4" long, with some deformation of the panel. From the photo it looks like it has been covered with filler resulting in an area about 6 inches square being covered with this filler. There is also some filler on the rear wheel arch where there was another gash.

Now at the most basic level, this seems like second rate repair to me. Secondly, my insurance policy states that while the car is in the new car warranty period, any replacements will be done with brand new OEM parts. Obviously this is what they originally planned to do, but then it was changed to using the filler after repairs were started.

Thoughts?

[Nidz]

I wouldn't accept bog/filled panels. That's just me. What happens when the car sits out in the middle of summer heat and expands/contracts in the sun?

[vz6.0]

cars have had filler in them since the beginning of time, as long as its a thin layer its fine.

Id still want a "new" door on a "new" car but the only reason you know about the filler is because you saw it.

If the insurance policy says you should get new panels, thats what should happen.

[Grommz]

Get your insurance company to go do the old magnet test on the area's effected.

If the magnet sticks then i wouldnt worry about it as the filler is thin.. If it doesn't then they need to be telling them to replace the panels asap as its a quick fix.

[chris_vysv8]

I think I'll have a chat to the assessor who was dealing with my claim and see what their process is... thanks guys.

[bush_basha]

yeh i wouldnt worry about it too much, unless it was a massive gauge, a hole or what not, they only use the filler to smooth it over and fill in parts. as was said put a magnet on there and if it doesnt stick, well id be saying not good enough

[XUV]

It's funny/good how we have a high '' anti-bog '' stance ,
in the States it's all bogged up :spew:

Anyway a bit of bog won't hurt .

[HARMSY]

If the repair has been done to a high standard underneath then filler over the top is common to smooth out the surface, should only be very thin coat....if they have repaired the damage solely with filler the old magnet test will work and i would be putting my foot down and asking for it to be replaced.....depending on the extent of the damage, pulling off the interior door panel and looking through to the door skin will give you and indication of whether the dint was fixed properly....


Chances are if you were quoted for a new door skin then they may be charging the insurance for a new door skin and repairing the old one to greater expand their profit margin!!!

[BigAl83]

Probably 90% of cars that get repaired at a panel beaters have body filler in them. It's not second rate, it's how repairs are done.

If you want your car metal finished or to have new parts you will be paying a lot more and waiting a lot longer to have it repaired. Unfortunately that is not how insurance companies operate.

[VZ_V8]

There is nothing wrong with using filler as long as it is only thin. If a metal panel is repaired it is almost impossible to get it completely straight again without using filler. In general it will be repaired to the highest standard it can then the area is covered in filler and then sanded off almost completely so only a very thin ~1mm layer is left, basically to remove the small imperfections still in the metal.

[chris_vysv8]

Spoke to the assessor. He said he wasn't aware of the change in repair method but he also assured me that he had absolute confidence in the particular shop doing the work on my car. Apparently this happens regularly and once the repair is done, the shop submits a new quote and photographic evidence of what repairs were done (those would be the photos they showed me). So it seems like it will be all good - either way the repairs are guaranteed and if it's not up to scratch it can be redone.

[Speedy Gonzales]

Chances are if you were quoted for a new door skin then they may be charging the insurance for a new door skin and repairing the old one to greater expand their profit margin!!!

Exactly, this is where the shonkiness comes in when its related to accident repair.

I wouldnt accept a repair with bog, so much so Ive gone out of my way to buy and supply new bars and skins if required.

Ask to have the old parts returned to you if needed.

[v8dude78]

People all cars are repaired with filler main reason being cost the insurance company's simply do not allow the time to repair the cars by metal finishing the repairs.

We can quote to replace a panel with a brand new OEM panel we prefer that as it makes our job easier but if the insurance company says NO you have to repair it or use a second hand panel then that is what we have to do at the end of the day they are paying the money, and we have to pay bills and wages and somehow make a profit from what they pay us.

At the moment they pay us $23 to $26 an hour to repair the cars.
As far as door skins go i myself would prefer to repair the door or buy a good second hand one because the first thing i check when im buying a new car is, is all the sealer around the doors factory, we can get it close but never exactly the same.

[Spoolin]

As above, filler is used widely within the industry and is more than acceptable to repair a vehicle using filler, heck there are cars that get repaired at the factory with filler and you don't hear boo.
As v8dude said, I'd much prefer a slightly repaired door over a skin, skins are a pain to re-seal as the factory did and it's common to see them rust prematurely, a door shell is very rarely used because of the expense unless the frame is distorted. If you don't like this method of repair go and buy an Audi or Volkswagen, they have bolt on skins and in most cases even minor repairs have the skin replaced...oh and they are considered luxury vehicles by insurance companies so they get treated that little bit better.

[planetdavo]

Coming from the parts industry that heavily supplies panels shops, and constantly has to compete with used/reconditioned parts...
Most insurance companies will only authorise genuine new parts within the first 12 months of purchase, the same period they offer new for old car replacement. The remainder of the warranty period puts genuine new parts as the last option to either used or reconditioned parts.
v8dude78 explained what goes on from the repair side. Happens all the time.
They do what suits them, not you.

[Spoolin]

They do what suits them, not you.
Theres a first...I agree with PD. No insurance has it's clients best interest at heart (except for Shannons), they need to satisfy investors first.

[xshore]

What are the limits on how much bog you guys use? I'm guessing the thicker you go the more issues you have with slump, sink back due to styrene density differences once polymerised and solvent evaporation, strength..

[trity]

as previously said you should get a new door or at least a new door skin, all repair work will have some percentage of bog in it as you need it aftera repair to get the panel back looking schmick before priming and painting

but in saying that everyone cringes when they hear a car has been bogged up

[LS1-5.7]

What a load of horse shit ! The quote states that a new door skin will be supplied and fitted. The insurance company has signed off on and approved the quote so it should be repaired as quoted. Unless there is some insider trading going on between the assessor and the panel shop ..... It is not unlike ordering a black SS from the dealer and being supplied with a pink SV8 ! No wonder the industry get's a bad reputation. If you're not happy with the way it has been repaired I'd be taking this matter to the Insurance Industry Ombudsman to investigate. Wait a few years and you'll see the downfall of using too much bog in a repair with issues such a shrinkback and ripples etc. Yet another reason why "choice of repairer" is the best way to go.

[chris_vysv8]

Well the repair is done guys, and it looks OK wrt the area that has been repaired on the door. However, my car is a dark metallic blue (vespers I think it was called) and having resprayed the front left quarter panel, they failed to blend the edge of the bonnet. So now there is a very obvious difference between the quarter panel and bonnet... it's going straight back to the panel shop next week. I've already phoned them and they seem eager to please so... fingers crossed.

Those car insurance ads that claim the car will be as good as new... what a load of bollocks.

[v8dude78]

Well the repair is done guys, and it looks OK wrt the area that has been repaired on the door. However, my car is a dark metallic blue (vespers I think it was called) and having resprayed the front left quarter panel, they failed to blend the edge of the bonnet. So now there is a very obvious difference between the quarter panel and bonnet... it's going straight back to the panel shop next week. I've already phoned them and they seem eager to please so... fingers crossed.

Those car insurance ads that claim the car will be as good as new... what a load of bollocks.

Mate how do you think racv, aami and a few others get all their business they put a pretty girl on tv with a reassuring smile and catchy jingle saying we care about you and people fall for it all the time as was posted before all they care about is their bottom line.

All i can say is always insist on your own repairer and if you get the "oh you have to use one of our recommended repairers" tell them B/S you can always chose your own repairer.

[LS1-5.7]

Well the repair is done guys, and it looks OK wrt the area that has been repaired on the door. However, my car is a dark metallic blue (vespers I think it was called) and having resprayed the front left quarter panel, they failed to blend the edge of the bonnet. So now there is a very obvious difference between the quarter panel and bonnet... it's going straight back to the panel shop next week. I've already phoned them and they seem eager to please so... fingers crossed.

Those car insurance ads that claim the car will be as good as new... what a load of bollocks.

And this is how the dramas start ........ Hope they look after you mate.

[planetdavo]

A couple of things I can add from many years experience in the industry.
No insurance company really "cares" about you, including Shannons. Some just have a few less exclusions than others. Their main priority really is getting you to re-insure with them again next year whilst paying out the least they have to this year.
Getting back to the comments about what has been approved and returning cars to original "before accident condition", they will do what suits them to do so. However, some shops, having constantly being boned by insurance companies, "may" repair a car differently to what any quote may say to make a bit more money, as long as they still return the car to "before accident condition".
This industry is all about before accident condition, not giving people a like new car back.

[chris_vysv8]

This industry is all about before accident condition, not giving people a like new car back.

I can attest to that... I paid extra to have my front bar completely restored, rather than just repair the part damaged in the accident and paint over the rest. I think having paid extra though, I would be justified in expecting a perfect colour match and blended edges to the paint job.

I won't be reinsuring with Just Car when my renewal is up in a few months. At least NRMA gave me cab fares to and from the repair shop.

[planetdavo]

I can attest to that... I paid extra to have my front bar completely restored, rather than just repair the part damaged in the accident and paint over the rest. I think having paid extra though, I would be justified in expecting a perfect colour match and blended edges to the paint job.

Some colours need virtually a full car respray to match reasonably well.
Hope they sort it out. At least one thing pretty much every insurer has is a lifetime guarantee on the repairs, which places the expense on the shop to repair any mistakes or shoddy work. Saying this though, if your colour is a b@stard to match/blend, and the insurer will only pay for the amount of painting they did, the fun has just begun...

[Spoolin]

I really hate to say this for a second time...But PD is just about 100% right... could be a first for you Dave :rofl:, i just have a slighly different view of Shannons with mates having made claims and knowing several people who work there.

Chris, the repairer reserves the right to change repair method once the car is in for repairs, no different if insurance said repair, but they took the job on and applied to replace because of severity.
Filler is not an issue when used correctly, most of the people commenting here are probably only experienced with shodding backyard repairs. Insurance will never pay for a repair to be metal finished, maybe on a very high end car and that's about it.
Now getting to the colour variance. the panel shop would have used the LHF guard to blend the colour into, they would not have applied colour to the top of the guard, only clear coat. This being the case GMH put so little clear coat on from factory that any extra will more than likely result in a slight deepening appearance of the colour, this issue is near on impossible to avoid. Now bare in mind the repairer is only paid to do as little as possible to repair your vehicle to "pre accident condition", they will certainly not approve to paint the bonnet.
Now to your bumper bar...this is a thorn in my side! You show me any and I mean any manufacturer where their plastic bumpers, moulding etc have a perfect match to the body....They don't and neither did your car pre accident, I bet your rear bumper also doesn't match so why would you expect the front to match perfect? That wouldn't be pre accident condition.
Just be reasonable, if there is an issue with the repair, have it fixed.

[HSV_CRUZN]

Insurance will never pay for a repair to be metal finished, maybe on a very high end car and that's about it.


I had my car metal finished when somebody decided to run up the rear end of my VT R8 2 years back mangling the top of my left rear 1/4. Although I had long term friends doing the repair who argued back and forth with the assessor for me:)

[chris_vysv8]

Now getting to the colour variance. the panel shop would have used the LHF guard to blend the colour into, they would not have applied colour to the top of the guard, only clear coat. This being the case GMH put so little clear coat on from factory that any extra will more than likely result in a slight deepening appearance of the colour, this issue is near on impossible to avoid. Now bare in mind the repairer is only paid to do as little as possible to repair your vehicle to "pre accident condition", they will certainly not approve to paint the bonnet.


Actually, that's not quite correct. The LFH guard panel was smashed beyond repair and was completely replaced. They repainted the whole panel from bare metal (I saw it partway through with the base coat on it so I know this is true). This is why the colour doesn't blend - you have the bonnet right next to the front guard with two different paint coats and they just don't match.



Now to your bumper bar...this is a thorn in my side! You show me any and I mean any manufacturer where their plastic bumpers, moulding etc have a perfect match to the body....They don't and neither did your car pre accident, I bet your rear bumper also doesn't match so why would you expect the front to match perfect? That wouldn't be pre accident condition.

This is true, and I'm aware of that particular problem. I just want the bonnet and guard to not look mismatched, then I'll be completely satisfied :)

[Spoolin]

Ah, Ok...I don't recall you mentioning anywhere that the guard was damaged, I seem to recall without re-reading the whole thread that your main concern was the door.
Anyway, the repairer would more than likely have quoted to blend the bonnet which would mean clearing out the whole panel, this should be on the quote. If they have quoted and not done it they can get into deep poopoo with the insurance company.
Cruzn, bring it around and I'll do a paint thickness test on it...I bet there is some form of filler on it apart from primer.

[heavychevy]

..... As far as door skins go i myself would prefer to repair the door or buy a good second hand one because the first thing i check when im buying a new car is, is all the sealer around the doors factory, we can get it close but never exactly the same.



.....As v8dude said, I'd much prefer a slightly repaired door over a skin, skins are a pain to re-seal as the factory did and it's common to see them rust prematurely, a door shell is very rarely used because of the expense unless the frame is distorted. ....

I've just had the rear door skin replaced after 2/3rds of the passenger side of the car was swiped. It was scraped but not torn. Damage to the front door and rear quarter was not as bad. I'm very happy with the repair and the silver paint blend looks fine to me. Perhaps a combination of good luck, my choice of panel shop and Shannons Insurance.

When you guys say 'sealer around the doors', what are you looking for ?

I can't visual detect any difference on the inside of the re skinned door and the originals and I did see the door with the skin removed during the repair.

[v8dude78]

Some colours need virtually a full car respray to match reasonably well.
Hope they sort it out. At least one thing pretty much every insurer has is a lifetime guarantee on the repairs, which places the expense on the shop to repair any mistakes or shoddy work. Saying this though, if your colour is a b@stard to match/blend, and the insurer will only pay for the amount of painting they did, the fun has just begun...

From my 20 plus years in the industry there are no colors i know of that need "virtually a full car respray to match" the only colors that would need extra panels to blend the color would be three layer pearls which there isnt that many about on new cars but even those only really need one extra panel.

And the other colors which might need extra panels are candy colors or the Harlequin colors but from what i understand those Harlequin colors dont need matching and you blend them like a metallic color and there are no candy or Harlequin colors from the factory for any cars.


Actually, that's not quite correct. The LFH guard panel was smashed beyond repair and was completely replaced. They repainted the whole panel from bare metal (I saw it partway through with the base coat on it so I know this is true). This is why the colour doesn't blend - you have the bonnet right next to the front guard with two different paint coats and they just don't match.



This is true, and I'm aware of that particular problem. I just want the bonnet and guard to not look mismatched, then I'll be completely satisfied :)

Blending a bonnet is fine to achieve no color difference but it depends on the color, silver for example can look motley or cloudy. your color though vespers should be able to be matched quite well. I myself prefer if im painting a new guard or new quater panel to match the color.

Its all ways best to leave the original paint where possible and nothing looks worst than when a bonnet has been blended and there are stone chips everywhere that have been painted over for the sake of a blend.


I've just had the rear door skin replaced after 2/3rds of the passenger side of the car was swiped. It was scraped but not torn. Damage to the front door and rear quarter was not as bad. I'm very happy with the repair and the silver paint blend looks fine to me. Perhaps a combination of good luck, my choice of panel shop and Shannons Insurance.

When you guys say 'sealer around the doors', what are you looking for ?

I can't visual detect any difference on the inside of the re skinned door and the originals and I did see the door with the skin removed during the repair.

We mean there is a small strip of sealer that goes around your doors inner edge some new panels come already sealed from the factory but thats mainly Mazda,Honda,VW etc.

[HSV_CRUZN]

Cruzn, bring it around and I'll do a paint thickness test on it...I bet there is some form of filler on it apart from primer.

Dont doubt it man. I dont have a problem with filler. I use it all the time in my own body kit repairs (trying to teach myself abit of panel rectification and painting as a hobby...wanna give lessons? :p)

[Spoolin]

V8dude, in fact there are colours which are suggested by paint manuacturers to be only used in overall repasrays, this is because the the colour can not be replicated in a refinish colour as has been done in an OE situation.
BTW, there are loads of three layer pearls in the market, pretty much every manufacturer has one in their line up of colours. Now GMH the imbiciles have gone with a candy clour...Morrocan Blue on the Cruze's, it's a silver ground coat with a tinted blue overlay and clear coated and it has the trifecta of being recommend by all refinish paint companies to be used for overall repaints not blending!
If you're worried about mottle etc in a blend, it isn't being done right! Then again the imperfections from factory are far worse.

[v8dude78]

V8dude, in fact there are colours which are suggested by paint manuacturers to be only used in overall repasrays, this is because the the colour can not be replicated in a refinish colour as has been done in an OE situation.
BTW, there are loads of three layer pearls in the market, pretty much every manufacturer has one in their line up of colours. Now GMH the imbiciles have gone with a candy clour...Morrocan Blue on the Cruze's, it's a silver ground coat with a tinted blue overlay and clear coated and it has the trifecta of being recommend by all refinish paint companies to be used for overall repaints not blending!
If you're worried about mottle etc in a blend, it isn't being done right! Then again the imperfections from factory are far worse.

Haven't come across any car manufacture standard paint so far that suggested a full respray can you imagine what the insurance company would say to that.

Yes there a few three layer pearls out there but their not that common compared to the amount of metallic colors out there.
Im really looking forward to that morrocan blue on the cruz, like they dont make our life harder enough already :confused:

Your right about the mottle across a bonnet in a blend but its easier to match the color edge to edge rather than doing a blend on a bonnet.
From what ive been seeing from repairers and the insurance company's these days is their more willing to blend colors rather than spend the time and effort to match them, makes it a lot harder for the younger guys coming through as apprentices because there not being given the time to learn how to color match properly.

One thing is how from one paint manufacture to another paint manufacture is there idea to what colors are three layer pearls and what isnt for example the mazda color Velocity Red Mica in glasurit its not a three layer pearl but in debeers it is, can make life very frustrating at times

[Spoolin]

Yep you're right, young apprectices' and tradies these days can't colour match for shit! It's not insurance companies fault, it's the training system, employers and their own laziness that all contributes to bad and lazy painters.
Yeah there are a few colours that are recommended for overall use, but the truth of the matter is it never happens, somebody with the ability will match and blend. When I was painting we hardly ever blended across a bonnet for a new guard, but colours have gotten worse and so have OE standards.
I like your comparison of Glasurit to DeBeers...Rolls Royce to Great Wall :rofl:

[v8dude78]

I like your comparison of Glasurit to DeBeers...Rolls Royce to Great Wall :rofl:

Yeah i know strange thing is in glasurit off the machine it was shit house in debeers depending on what your painting you can paint it straight off the machine go figure :confused:

[Spoolin]

LOL, that's funny! My mums car is velocity red and has been repaired three times at a Glasurit shop. edge to edge rear bar on a Mazda 3 and it's better than factory.
So you use both in one shop? What shop?

[v8dude78]

Old shop where i used to work had glasurit and where im working now uses debeers strange though isn't.
Must say though you do get what you pay for, glasurit base coat is very easy to lay down and do what you want to with it debeers can be a pain to get right but for a cheaper brand its not to bad

[Spoolin]

Old shop where i used to work had glasurit and where im working now uses debeers strange though isn't.
Must say though you do get what you pay for, glasurit base coat is very easy to lay down and do what you want to with it debeers can be a pain to get right but for a cheaper brand its not to bad

Try painting BMW Space Grey in DeBeers...

[planetdavo]

From my 20 plus years in the industry there are no colors i know of that need "virtually a full car respray to match" the only colors that would need extra panels to blend the color would be three layer pearls which there isnt that many about on new cars but even those only really need one extra panel.


It sounds to me like you are happy for the colour to match, but perhaps matching the metallic flake or the pearl is a little less important to you.

[Spoolin]

Dave...stick to supplying the parts buddy :)
Face, flip, flop, metamerism, metalic size, particle orientation all do their part to make the colour right.

[v8dude78]

It sounds to me like you are happy for the colour to match, but perhaps matching the metallic flake or the pearl is a little less important to you.

Sounds like to me you have no idea about the smash repair industry, supplying parts to it doesnt give you an insight to it.

When you are blending a three layer pearl you are suppose to blend it over three panels (example repair on front of guard blend color across guard, front door, rear door) but as has been said earlier in this thread insurance company's wont pay the money for it to be done.

[v8dude78]

Dave...stick to supplying the parts buddy :)
Face, flip, flop, metamerism, metalic size, particle orientation all do their part to make the colour right.

Damn you beat me to it :rofl:

[chris_vysv8]

Wow... this thread's kind of taken off in a new direction...

Over the weekend I've looked at the new paintwork under all kinds of lighting conditions - full sun, twilight, bright fluoro, dim basement. Under none of these conditions does it match properly. It really looks like they've just done a half-*rsed job of matching the colour. I had a repair done on the other side of the car about 12 months ago, and that was colour matched perfectly - you really can't tell anything's been done. The new work just looks... wrong. The base colour is too bright - Vespers is more of a navy blue, whereas the new stuff is more towards a royal blue. Depending on the angle at which you look, it matches fairly ok-ish, or very poorly.

Basically I'm not a happy camper. I'm not sure what my options are here, but if I had my way they would redo the whole lot. I'll be talking to both my insurer and the repair shop tomorrow.

[HARMSY]

Wow... this thread's kind of taken off in a new direction...

Over the weekend I've looked at the new paintwork under all kinds of lighting conditions - full sun, twilight, bright fluoro, dim basement. Under none of these conditions does it match properly. It really looks like they've just done a half-*rsed job of matching the colour. I had a repair done on the other side of the car about 12 months ago, and that was colour matched perfectly - you really can't tell anything's been done. The new work just looks... wrong. The base colour is too bright - Vespers is more of a navy blue, whereas the new stuff is more towards a royal blue. Depending on the angle at which you look, it matches fairly ok-ish, or very poorly.

Basically I'm not a happy camper. I'm not sure what my options are here, but if I had my way they would redo the whole lot. I'll be talking to both my insurer and the repair shop tomorrow.

Your insurance should give some sort of a gurantee in relation to repairs, the car should be bought back to the state it was before the accident, if it's not i would be getting your insurance company to chase it up, thats what you pay the $$$ for......don't settle for a half arsed job

[chris_vysv8]

Your insurance should give some sort of a gurantee in relation to repairs, the car should be bought back to the state it was before the accident, if it's not i would be getting your insurance company to chase it up, thats what you pay the $$$ for......don't settle for a half arsed job

In case anyone is interested (can't imagine why, but anyhow :) ), the procedure will be to attempt to get the repairer to resolve the issue first. If I'm not satisfied, the car can be re-assessed by my insurer and if found to be unsatisfactory it can be sent to a new repairer to rectify.

So at least now I feel reasonably confident that I'll be able to get this fixed to my satisfaction.

[v8dude78]

Hopefully you wont have to much drama most shops will see the error and fix it good luck with it keep us posted on how ya go :goodjob: