BEWARE - The Great Odometer windback (DEMOS)

[747]

Firstly I must clarify that this warning does NOT relate to any specific dealer or geographical location. It comes from firsthand experience on a national basis and across a broad range. It is more rare than a common event, BUT I hereby make ths warning

Firstly don’t believe that electronic odometers cannot be wound back. There are a number of ways that these can be reset.

Registration authorities are now attempting to record odometer readings of used cars when they are transferred from seller to seller.

Demo cars have no recorded odometer readings as they are typically registered by a dealer at the point of being new.

Why would a dealer tamper with an odometer reading? Some demo cars maybe many months old and have been used for a variety of uses including service loan cars, commuter cars for employees doing long distances or as dealer hacks. Some cars may do 10,000 or more. I have seen demo cars with up to 100,000 kms that were over 12 months old.

Dealers pay the normal price for a demo car (as in new car) and then receive a bonus from the factory for registering it as a demo. This can be $1000 or more depending on the model. At the point of sale as a demo the difference in resale price between a car with 3000 kms and 22,000km can be significant.

So how do they do it - replace part of the electronics associated with the Speedo/odometer or call in "Speedo George". Yes there are people who will come to a dealer and do the required "work" for them, often hiding the real job as electronics expert, audio tech etc. Sometimes the work might be called "fix dashboard rattle"

I have seen cars have the odometer tampered with and then a complete set of new tyres fitted to disguise the car history. Where required paint damage/blemish is repaired to look new.

I have even seen vehicles used for demonstration purposes clock up a few thousand kilometres on trade plates and then have odometers tampered with.

DEMO ACCIDENTS - :eyes:Ever wondered if demos have accidents? Well they sure do. And some are crashed even on a trade plate. So potentially even a brand new car could easily have had repair work. Would you ever know?

Advice when buying NEW. Look at the vehicle compliance/production and determine how long the car has been in the dealers hands. If the car is a few months old are extra vigilant. If the dealer got the car from another dealer then the vehicle has additional history that you don’t know about. BUY a vehicle fresh from the factory - this is the best way to ensure you new car is 100% new.

Advice when buying DEMO. Look at the vehicle compliance/production and and determine how long the car has been in the dealers hands. If the vehicle has been registered more than a few weeks/months closely inspect all (5) tyres for wear. Look at engine oil - if the car has 200kms on it the oil should NOT be black.

DEMO CONTRACTS - Ask the dealer to add the following clause to the contract -
"The dealer/seller certifies to the purchaser that -
1. The vehicle has not been involved in any accidental damage and has had no repairs of any body, paint or cosmetic nature
2. The vehicle has not had its odometer adjusted, tampered with or replaced and that the kilometres showing on the vehicle are accurate"
(If the dealer refuses walk away....fast)

NOTE - There has been an increasing practice of dealers creating demo vehicles for the sake of stimulating registration numbers. Some dealers will have a number of cars termed demos that have in fact never been driven. Obviously my warnings do not apply to this type of demos (cars that have never been driven)

Basically don’t be pressured into thinking a demo is a NEW car if it has more than 2,000-5,000 kilometres and/or is more than one or two months old. ALWAYS look at the build date of the car

Remember a demo car is NEVER new. It is sold as a used car and you will typically sign an agreement to purchase a "USED" vehicle

BUILD DATES - In some states Compliance plate dates mean nothing. Example - in QLD You buy a brand new or demo in 2010 which has a 2009 compliance plate date. In your mind it is a 2010 model. QLD transport registers the car as a 2008 because the factory build date was December 2008. From a resale perspective you now have a 2 year old car.

Now many that work in dealers will deny this ever happens. Yes there are some great dealers who pride themselves on doing the right thing and would NEVER risk their reputation. Then there are others that know this goes on and wont say a word ... remember Caveat emptor

[kpop]

good stuff. got a mechanic friend who told me, electronic or not, its not hard to wind back the kays.

[planetdavo]

Plenty of good info, but in practise, the winding back of speedo's is far, far more common in "Honest Joes Used Cars" (usually bought from interstate auctions- and without owners books in all cases) than it is in a franchised dealers near new demo's.
As always, a "from new" stamped service book or servicing invoices separate which of two otherwise identical cars people should be looking at.
Accident damage is something any buyer should be looking at, whether one month old or five years old.

[Speedy Gonzales]

Dodginess happens on every level in the motor industry, even at dealerships.

Demos should be treated as a used car, I happened to buy my LS1 as a demo and it has served me well, it only got delivered new for the sales manager to use at the time.

Its not difficult to wind back the clock, just wack in a cluster with a lower mileage from a wreck.

Yes demos do cop a hammering being used by staff and as loan cars for customers, they even get damaged, repaired, and sold as new on the showroom floor, would I buy one? Myself, only if it had just been delivered new to use, otherwise, no.

I havent seen any cars from PD fall off a truck as yet but Im sure there have been a few that have been patched up and sold off as new :goodjob:

[planetdavo]

Yes demos do cop a hammering being used by staff and as loan cars for customers, they even get damaged, repaired, and sold as new on the showroom floor, would I buy one? Myself, only if it had just been delivered new to use, otherwise, no.

Just to balance this comment, it is not uncommon for an ex demo to be put in the showroom, but that is to increase attention to it, rather than any pretence of it being anything other than what it is, an ex demo.
Some people "assume" only brand new cars are displayed in the new car showroom, but demo's are sold by the new car department, and it's their showroom, so they are quite entitled to display them wherever they feel will sell them best. It's often done with harder to sell colours, models low on options etc to increase visibility.

[XLR8 V8]

A few years back Armstrong Holden up here copped a beating on the news after their practice of winding back the odometers on their demos was revealed to the public. They were resetting back to zero kms via the Tech2 just before the odometer hit 100km. This was apparently done multiple times on some vehicles.
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=26603&highlight=armstrong+holden
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=31202&highlight=armstrong+holden
The dealer was stripped of his dealers licence for 6 months.

[planetdavo]

A few years back Armstrong Holden up here copped a beating on the news after their practice of winding back the odometers on their demos was revealed to the public. They were resetting back to zero kms via the Tech2 just before the odometer hit 100km. This was apparently done multiple times on some vehicles.
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=26603&highlight=armstrong+holden
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=31202&highlight=armstrong+holden
The dealer was stripped of his dealers licence for 6 months.

Perhaps the most high profile franchised dealership example in Australia, and they paid a high price, as they should have. It requires people from two different departments to make this happen, hence the big time penalty, as they could not claim it was the actions of one rogue individual.

[Knight Phlier]

Its not difficult to wind back the clock, just wack in a cluster with a lower mileage from a wreck.




How easy is it to change the KM's - is it just a case of changing the cluster or do you need to change the BCM or PCM as well where cars have digital odometers?

[v8dude78]

Saw a prime example of this today so called brand new ve ute at a Victorian dealership could tell straight away that the front guard and rear quarter panel had been painted the door was the original color as it had that factory not quite covered look to it but the other panels were evenly covered and a consistent color
Just heads up always give the paint work a close inspection as stated new cars get damaged too

[747]

How easy is it to change the KM's - is it just a case of changing the cluster or do you need to change the BCM or PCM as well where cars have digital odometers?

Actually it's even simpler than that, But lets not go there

[747]

Saw a prime example of this today so called brand new ve ute at a Victorian dealership could tell straight away that the front guard and rear quarter panel had been painted the door was the original color as it had that factory not quite covered look to it but the other panels were evenly covered and a consistent color
Just heads up always give the paint work a close inspection as stated new cars get damaged too

ie. Car goes on a test drive and gets bingled or Car gets stolen by joy rider and gets smashed - car is fixed by dealer and still sold as new.

I am not trying to frighten people - just make people aware....

[HARMSY]

How easy is it to change the KM's - is it just a case of changing the cluster or do you need to change the BCM or PCM as well where cars have digital odometers?


I'm pretty sure it's just plug and play with a tech2 or wack a new cluster in......

[747]

I'm pretty sure it's just plug and play with a tech2 or wack a new cluster in......

Tech 2 only allows reset up to 100kms.

[CLUBRED]

Armstrongs disappeared many years ago. Even when I worked there as a jnr I knew the place was dodgy, very high mechanic turnover, the list could go on but I don't really need a slander notice dropped off at my door. This place turned me against the industry.

I also know of a few european delaers that reset the odometres, I believe VW reset theirs prior to shipping, then once more when it arrives to the dealer.

[seldo]

With the odd exception this is a load of crap. Why are you all so paranoid? Have you checked for Reds under under the bed before you go to sleep.

[Dug]

With the odd exception this is a load of crap. Why are you all so paranoid? Have you checked for Reds under under the bed before you go to sleep.

Well said Seldo.

[747]

With the odd exception this is a load of crap. Why are you all so paranoid? Have you checked for Reds under under the bed before you go to sleep.

Nobody said it was everyday mainstream ... BUT it still happens. Rare as it may be. Nothing wrong with being aware, vigilant and awake to the unethical

[VX2VESS]

their is other software around that can reset over 100klms.

or a used cluster with lower K's from a wreck.

[Sonnymad]

Plenty of good info, but in practise, the winding back of speedo's is far, far more common in "Honest Joes Used Cars" (usually bought from interstate auctions- and without owners books in all cases) than it is in a franchised dealers near new demo's.
As always, a "from new" stamped service book or servicing invoices separate which of two otherwise identical cars people should be looking at.
Accident damage is something any buyer should be looking at, whether one month old or five years old.


I busted a dealer who not only doctored the log books but wound back the km's on a vehicle i was gonna buy from 145000km's to 75000km's :) dealers do it more then the joes blogs yard davo :)

[planetdavo]

ie. Car goes on a test drive and gets bingled or Car gets stolen by joy rider and gets smashed - car is fixed by dealer and still sold as new.

I am not trying to frighten people - just make people aware....

This example is really more scaremongering to a sympathetic audience than a common reality. New cars getting paint repairs are pretty much always due to minor transport related damage, with the repairs being the method approved by the manufacturer.

[seldo]

ie. Car goes on a test drive and gets bingled or Car gets stolen by joy rider and gets smashed - car is fixed by dealer and still sold as new.

I am not trying to frighten people - just make people aware....Often new cars get paint rectifications even before they leave the factory, and they also occassionally get a scratch or scrape during transport, storage, PD, accessory fitting etc.
Surely you don't think they throw the bloody things away.
They fix them properly and sell them.
Talk about paranoia...

[planetdavo]

I busted a dealer who not only doctored the log books but wound back the km's on a vehicle i was gonna buy from 145000km's to 75000km's :) dealers do it more then the joes blogs yard davo :)

I would LOVE you to provide bona fide proof that this is as common as you say Sonny...:yup: The whole industry knows who the main culprits are, and they are most often cars that don't come with a verifiable service history.

[747]

I would LOVE you to provide bona fide proof that this is as common as you say Sonny...:yup: The whole industry knows who the main culprits are, and they are most often cars that don't come with a verifiable service history.

Most registration authorites are now recording odometer readings on transfer of ownerships. So altered odometer readings on already registered vehicles are now recorded and traceable.

The primary culprits are (and I have witnessed many examples)

1. Private owners of vehicles who have owned the vehicle since new. 200,000 kms becoming 95,000 and a new service book purchased
2. Major repair vehicles
3. Demonstration (demo) vehicles

Most individuals with bona fide proof will keep it to themselves for obvious reasons. Employees are not going to be forthcoming for fear of losing jobs.

Accept that it DOES GO ON and let the buyer be aware and cautious

[planetdavo]

I accept many things 747. My point though is that you chose to post up what is a pretty rare issue (on demo's) on a forum with a well known bloodlust for scandel, even one that is extremely low in examples. There are far more stories out in the straw hat wearing used car salesman world that would perhaps be of higher benefit to the forums members.

[747]

I accept many things 747. My point though is that you chose to post up what is a pretty rare issue (on demo's) on a forum with a well known bloodlust for scandel, even one that is extremely low in examples. There are far more stories out in the straw hat wearing used car salesman world that would perhaps be of higher benefit to the forums members.

You miss the very point. Most used car buyers are aware that it goes on in the used car market to some degree.

MY POINT is it DOES go on with DEMOS (perhaps in the world of parts you are not as privvy to it) and buyers DONT SUSPECT that demos would be subject to it.

I have explained
1. How it happens with demos
2. Why it happens with demos
3. How buyers can protect themselves

Please dont reflect the heat from this issue by blaming it on the used car departments/dealerships. Just let it be here as a warning. AS low a rate of wound back speedos on demos may be if a single forum member is saved from a dishonest dealer (remember people are paying $50,000+ for a car in many cases) then my time in sharing my experiences working in a dealership was time well spent.

[kpop]

i think the thread is relevant. when you buy a 'new car' you expect it to be exactly that. i wouldnt consider a demo car / car with a few hundred kays not to be 'new'. i wouldnt mind buying a demo, but as long as i knew exactly what it is.

[seldo]

The whole beat-up has been done to death before.
Have a look at
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65944&highlight=seldo+mileage

[planetdavo]

The whole beat-up has been done to death before.
Have a look at
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65944&highlight=seldo+mileage

What I find most relevant in this thread is that the two of us, whom have been around long enough to know, are well aware that this thread is a beat up of a rare situation. Think most ACA stories...:hide:
Being a motoring enthuiast forum with a minority hardcore "stealership" attitude though, it was always going to pull in a few sympathisers with more gullability than knowledge...:slap:

[planetdavo]

i think the thread is relevant. when you buy a 'new car' you expect it to be exactly that. i wouldnt consider a demo car / car with a few hundred kays not to be 'new'. i wouldnt mind buying a demo, but as long as i knew exactly what it is.

You need to adjust your thinking.
A demo is not a new car. It is a car used by the new car department for the purpose of being tested by potential new bar buyers, meaning it could have had the severest of cold engine floggings you've ever seen, doors opened into it, trim wear etc. They are also taken home by salespeople each night, and occasionally loaned to customers.

[mastadd]

I would never buy a demo, i know what i have done in them and i dont even work for a car dealer, my best mate does. lol

[kpop]

You need to adjust your thinking.
A demo is not a new car. It is a car used by the new car department for the purpose of being tested by potential new bar buyers, meaning it could have had the severest of cold engine floggings you've ever seen, doors opened into it, trim wear etc. They are also taken home by salespeople each night, and occasionally loaned to customers.

its amazing how 1 word changes the meaning of a sentance! not sure why i put the word not, but it shouldnt have been there :P
so i was actually in agreement with you

i think the thread is relevant. when you buy a 'new car' you expect it to be exactly that. i wouldnt consider a demo car / car with a few hundred kays not to be 'new'. i wouldnt mind buying a demo, but as long as i knew exactly what it is.

[markone2]

In my limited experince on the subject..biggest offenders by a large margin is Joe plubic who purchased there car new....



.



.

[6.2L.Club]

I had it happen to me when l bought a Demo VZ Clubsport, the car was displayed in the used car lot and had about 2,700kms on the clock. When l picked it up it was from the new car showroom and it had 25kms on the clock. At the end of the day l was aware of what had been done, l had given the car a very good visual inspection and l was happy with my purchase. I did have some warranty issues with the vehicle but none were related to possibly being thrashed or damaged before delivery.
Bit different if a dealer tries to wipe 70,000kms off a speedo and as Sonny has shown, it can and does happen.

It does happen everywhere regardless of what you believe and being AWARE of what can be done is better than not being aware. People need to stop personally attcking people who make genuine threads to make people aware, take the thread for what it is, a bit of info for people who wish to read it.

[747]

I had it happen to me when l bought a Demo VZ Clubsport, the car was displayed in the used car lot and had about 2,700kms on the clock. When l picked it up it was from the new car showroom and it had 25kms on the clock. At the end of the day l was aware of what had been done, l had given the car a very good visual inspection and l was happy with my purchase. I did have some warranty issues with the vehicle but none were related to possibly being thrashed or damaged before delivery.
Bit different if a dealer tries to wipe 70,000kms off a speedo and as Sonny has shown, it can and does happen.

It does happen everywhere regardless of what you believe and being AWARE of what can be done is better than not being aware. People need to stop personally attcking people who make genuine threads to make people aware, take the thread for what it is, a bit of info for people who wish to read it.

At last. Thankyou. Just hope that the 2700 wasnt 27000 before the previous windback. I have seen demos wound back 3 or 4 times to keep the kms "under control"

[seldo]

In my limited experince on the subject..biggest offenders by a large margin is Joe plubic who purchased there car new....
.Abso-bloody-lutely correct!
One of the worst offenders was my goody-goody-2-shoes CPA accountant who used to run his Benz with the speedo disconnected for years at a time. Trade-in time and he had an absoluteley immaculate ( he was completely anal with the care of his cars) 1 owner log-booked car with only 60ks on it instead of the genuine 180ks... Did it time after time.

[kpop]

Abso-bloody-lutely correct!
One of the worst offenders was my goody-goody-2-shoes CPA accountant who used to run his Benz with the speedo disconnected for years at a time. Trade-in time and he had an absoluteley immaculate ( he was completely anal with the care of his cars) 1 owner log-booked car with only 60ks on it instead of the genuine 180ks... Did it time after time.

thats incredible. didnt know people went to such lenghts...

[Speedy Gonzales]

Its also a reason why people like their cars original, how many time do you go to see a car in a yard with the cluster from a Calais/HSV swapped into a SS/Exec? How do you know if the mileage is legit? Because youre buying from an LMCT? :lol::lol:

Yeah, Ive seen the "my HSV is immac, driven on weekends and has done 10K in 4 years" attitude, going to trade in, put in cluster with lower Ks, a "HSV Classic" thats for sure.

[pah]

Slightly off topic but .. .

I bought a car (1993 VP) from an Aboriginal organisation at a significant discount. A work mate bought a car from the same crowd. The log books were missing from his car. He boasted that his local Dealer gave him a new set of log books - listing him as the original purchaser making the car look like a one owner vehicle.




PAH

[afmss]

i do pdr repairs for a living ,one of my customers handles the new cars when they arrive at port,[off the ship].there is about 10%of all cars damaged in some way from shipping ,the majority are simple pdr repairs,but they do get some pretty major repairs as well ,from what i know any car that has to have a panel welded on carnt be sold as new and are offered to the dealer at a discount as a demo car [carnt be sold new].this logistics company has their own panel shop on the warf,so the new cars are repaired there before being shipped to the dealer.:1peek:

[Woteva]

i do pdr repairs for a living ,one of my customers handles the new cars when they arrive at port,[off the ship].there is about 10%of all cars damaged in some way from shipping ,the majority are simple pdr repairs,but they do get some pretty major repairs as well ,from what i know any car that has to have a panel welded on carnt be sold as new and are offered to the dealer at a discount as a demo car [carnt be sold new].this logistics company has their own panel shop on the warf,so the new cars are repaired there before being shipped to the dealer.:1peek:

I work for a prestige smash repairs and see this quite often. Have 2 very expensive convertibles in the workshop right now from a certain marquee with pretty severe rear quarter damage. Will be fixed then back to the stealership. My guess it they'll be dealer thrashed for while then then flogged off as ex demos.

[TUFFIE]

I can say from a first hand experience that this DOES happen.... the speedo (electronic)was sent to a dealership (a pretty big one in Melb) to get wound
back.
Here is the most ironic part...the car got traded at the same dealership....:smilesandbanana: (don't worry davo it wasn't where you work)

P.s Planetdavo -are you going to send me another PM telling me how good you are ??? :)

[planetdavo]

I can say from a first hand experience that this DOES happen.... the speedo (electronic)was sent to a dealership (a pretty big one in Melb) to get wound
back.
Here is the most ironic part...the car got traded at the same dealership....:smilesandbanana: (don't worry davo it wasn't where you work)

P.s Planetdavo -are you going to send me another PM telling me how good you are ??? :)

Tuffie, no need to keep making it personal. I posted what I did to balance out the veritable mountain of bullsh!t getting posted up, and to let people know I speak from a position of experience plus industry and greater community respect on the issues that were being "discussed", but you appear to just want to make it an ongoing public attack aimed at one member for the "pleasure" of a (thankfully) tiny loser element of this forum.
Let it go, and be happy. :yup:

[Peter B - CV8]

Many years I purchased (privately) a two year old VL Wagon with 40,000 k's on it. A few days after purchase, I was trying to locate an annoying rattle in the dashboard are - seemingly from behind the instrument cluster.
I decided to remove the cluster & have a look around for whatever might have been rattling. I got a little bit concerned when I noticed that most of the retaining screws etc showed signs of having been removed (markings etc on the screw heads) - but I got really pissed when I found a jewellers type screwdriver sitting on the dash frame & markings on the speedo wheel evidencing signs of tampering.
I rang the bloke I had purchased it from & told him he had left some "work tools" in the car & would he mind if I dropped them back to him. After some animated discussion about what I had found, I convinced him of the merits of refunding me $3,000- to reflect what might have been the real odometer reading.

[Captin Obvious]

All this talk about dealers,

Whats to stop a bloke trading in a car with 200,000 and changing a cluster back to 150,000 ?

maybe its possible dealers/used car yards are selling cars with inaccurate odo readings without even knowing it ?

[seldo]

I had an annoying, but humorous experience many years ago in Sydney.
I'd bought a 635 BMW coupe and I noticed it had an annoying buzz/rattle in the instruments, so I pulled the cluster out to send it away to be repaired....and on the back of the speedo, some wag had written in texta ..." OH No! Not again!"
True story!

[belly]

Sounds like we all know it goes on, I have been in the car game for over 18 years now, I know about it, I've seen it, even know of people that have spent over $1k in one hit to have their Euro cars whizzed, as you need to do the electroinc cluster, the PCM, and the key as well. I believe around the $200 mark gets you done now for your average car. Common, Shit yeah, what can you do about it, as original post said, BEWARE!! Does it happen as often as some of you claim, no I don't believe so, but if you didn't know, now you do, and you know what to look for. Also, to point out another thing, fines are ever increasing for this, Jailtime is evident, and an LMCT holder only needs one type of criminal conviction, even a conviction for assault can count, and they jeopardise their Licence, their livelyhood and career. VW even allowed (they may still but I'm not involved with them anymore) you to reset the speedo three times anywhere under 80km's as this could be considered "transport" km's. Common sense should prevail here. Be careful, and when in doubt, organise your own RACV/VACC/Independant inspection. Warning: Do not allow the dealer to organise the Inspection, organise it yourself. This way you ensure the dealer does not have an "arrangement" with the Inspection Agent. On a final note, if you buy from a dealer, you have some protection from your relevant government body (here in Vic it is VACC). If you buy privately from some bloke who claims to have owned it for the past three years, and your suspect on the answers he gives you, and something is not quite right, call Vic Roads (or me/someone like me), do a history report on the car, and quite often he bought it within the last few months from an Auction house, repaired the damage, fixed the speedo, and is flogging it off trying to make his $5000 or more. Now THIS IS MORE THE COMMON PRACTICE!!
Anyway, my 2c. Sorry for going on so long

[Bingo BIlly]

I dont see the problem if a car is reset within 100km. even several times.

Im more concerned about cheats winding back more than 10000-20000km+.

I had a car with a shorter diff ratio and didnt calibrate it. Over a few years it probably was overstated 10,000km.

Whatever happened to speedo george? From a current affair he disappeared.

[belly]

Bingo Billy, Speedo George is around (not the original one) but now he uses a laptop, not a screwdriver. lol

[bad88u]

I believe around the $200 mark gets you done now for your average car. Common, Shit yeah,

we have the right answer here.

[markone2]

Tuffie, no need to keep making it personal. I posted what I did to balance out the veritable mountain of bullsh!t getting posted up, and to let people know I speak from a position of experience plus industry and greater community respect on the issues that were being "discussed", but you appear to just want to make it an ongoing public attack aimed at one member for the "pleasure" of a (thankfully) tiny loser element of this forum.
Let it go, and be happy. :yup:

Mate . just tell him the truth :confused:..Your Holden supplied gear simply won't cut it on higher k cars.........

nor will a google search imho , Although a forum search just might, might mind you ...reveal a smidgen of info on said subject :diddy:

.

[747]

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/07/19/240011_crime-and-court-news.html

Extract "A SURFERS Paradise man has been fined $4000 for winding back his Mercedes-Benz odometer by more than 90,000km.............Operation Turner is targeting backyard motor dealers and people selling vehicles with replaced or altered odometers.........Five people have already convicted and fined up to $10,000 each in Queensland courts this year.