Death of V6 and V8 engines coming

[747]

I have just been privy to a USA car manufacturer's conference and the impact of the 2016 mandatory fuel consumption legislation. The Environmental Protection Agency will target a 35.5 mpg standard for vehicles by 2016. The rule, finalized jointly by EPA and the Department of Transportation in April, would raise the national corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standard to 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016 and impose an average carbon dioxide limit of 250 grams per mile per vehicle that year.

So what you may ask? Why does this impact Australia?

As you would be aware the Australian market is tiny compared to the world market. Car makers have never made cars only to suit Australia. We get what the world gets

3 of the USA car makers have said that there will be no more V6 or V8 sedan vehicles after 2016, apart from luxury prestige models. V8's will become V6 turbos and V6's will become turbo 4's. For example Hyundai has dropped the V6 on the Sonata for a turbo 4 cylinder.

Already we have Ford soon to release the 4 cylinder Falcon. and has revealed minimum performance outputs of 230hp (170kW) and 240lb-ft (325Nm) of torque. By 2013, Ford expects more than 90 per cent of its US model line-up to feature EcoBoost engine technology

Some registration regulators are already slugging 6 and 8 cyllinder woners with higher taxes. Queensland already charges higher registration for 6 cylinder registration and an even higer fee for 8 cylinder engines. Dealers are reporting that buyers are conscious of this cost when purchasing

So dont be too shocked to see the 4 cylinder Falcon to actually sell well and ultimately Holden forced to follow. What scares me is that GM seems to be the slowest of the car makers to adapt to what the future will bring. If the new Falcon delivers its targeted 7.9l/100km then expect Commodore sales to take a dive

Research has shown (and this may not be your typical LS1 forum member) that fuel economy has become the #1 driving factor in buyers decision making process.




http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/07/ecoboost-4-torque.jpg


Have a read of this Ford release http://autopartsgateway.net/AdminUploads/Images/AUTO1/ford_1.6_ecoboost_3.jpg

[Ausmartin1]

Wow I'm suprised within 6 years it's that quick?
Even more questionable will be the durability of the eco crappy boost engines.
Those Ford engines will have to spin at high revs and work hard for the same drivability.

I wonder will the eco boost engines get to say 160,000 miles and be drivable with no cloud of blue clapped out smoke when moving a full size sedan all it's life?

Now we count carbon, It's just another tax - as the worlds politicians rub their hands in joy over the global warming.
Funny how we are supposed to heading into an Ice Age they warned us in the 70's and now the tea leaves are suposed to be arranged differently?

Melbourne had the coldest day last month in 10 years, England I think 14...
Yeah we all should our bit for the enviroment but as the retired GM Bob Lutz
said global warming is a crook of $hit. He suggested that america should do it's bit to get off foreign oil.....

Fords solution is crap, GM's volt is way better and if they sell enough of those it can offset the V6 & V8'S that should work out good for everyone!:)

[Red Beard]

Won't this make 2nd hand V8s cheaper. I mean, if people afraid of the running costs of 8s or 6s opt for turbo 4 bangers, The arse will drop out of the performance V8 market.

Yippee, discount SS Commodores for all.

[OPTIMUS]

While its good if u subscribe to global warming all these sanctions and taxes on developed countries will mean nothing until China and India etc etc come into line, car drivers are just easy targets.. going green is the new supertax

[Marco]

I'm not so sure.

We don't have mandated fuel economy standards and we have cheap petrol. Even if GM and Ford don't put V8s into sedans, they will still put them into trucks and sports cars for the time being. (Turbo V6 Corvette? I don't think so). So there will still be V8 engines manufactured, and they will continue to be put into Commodores and Falcons as long as the market demands them.

Rest easy, brothers, until the Yanks announce they are making no more V8 engines at all...or until local regulations change.

[747]

I wonder will the eco boost engines get to say 160,000 miles and be drivable with no cloud of blue clapped out smoke when moving a full size sedan all it's life?


Fords solution is crap, GM's volt is way better and if they sell enough of those it can offset the V6 & V8'S that should work out good for everyone!:)

There are many small turbo 4 cylinder engines that have been around for years. Much of their engineering is to of a higher standard, they don't really rev that hard. It's all about efficency and if people use quality oils and adhere to required oil changes they will last well. Ever sen how long a Camira engine lasted before blowing smoke:rofl:


The problem with an electric car is a real mine field. I'd say it's 20 years before they become common in this country

I might just add this US 35.5 MPG is pretty severe.
1 US gallon = 3.78541178 litres.
So 35.5 MPG is 35.5 miles per 3.7854 litres
This equates to 57.2 km per 3.785 litres
or
6.6l per 100km

[DX_]

Car makers have never made cars only to suit Australia. We get what the world gets

Huh??? The Ford Falcon is made to only suit Australia.

Australian designed car, Australian designed engine; you won't find it anywhere else (well, maybe NZ!).

[747]

DX The Falcon is a remnant of a car introduced into Australia in the 1960's and that was basically a USA engineered/designed vehicle.

Maybe the only real 100% Australian designed car was.... wait for it

http://www.milesago.com/Features/images/p76.jpg

[planetdavo]

The end of the world is coming too............................................... .one day.
One can either enjoy what they currently have, or worry about what they haven't yet lost.

[Martin_D]

The answer = Turbo Diesel
Great punch and 1000km of travel on a 75 litre tank of fuel around town :)
- a 2.0 turbo will always outgrunt a 3.0 atmo...in fact most will go upwards of a 5.7 in terms of torque delivery, and thats only physics, no emotion -
They still sound like crap though :cool:

[DX_]

DX The Falcon is a remnant of a car introduced into Australia in the 1960's and that was basically a USA engineered/designed vehicle.


Today's Falcon is 100% Australian designed, right down to the I6, excluding the German gearbox. There's nothing remotely American in it - apart from the XR8 which uses an American designed V8; although (for now atleast) the XR8 is no longer for sale. I've always praised Ford in this respect, their product is designed just for us (which will ultimately be its downfall in years to come). This new ecoboost stuff is just the beginning of American technology infiltrating Falcon. All the service centres learn to service these American powerplants, it makes it that much easier to start importing the Falcon replacement.

[Wonky]

The end of the world is coming too............................................... .one day.
One can either enjoy what they currently have, or worry about what they haven't yet lost.

:yup: As an official old fart I've been hearing about the death of V8s for 30 years.........:doh: Admittedly if such legislation is enacted it probably may mean the end in new cars, but not for everybody who already has one.

[troytroy]

The answer = Turbo Diesel
Great punch and 1000km of travel on a 75 litre tank of fuel around town :)
- a 2.0 turbo will always outgrunt a 3.0 atmo...in fact most will go upwards of a 5.7 in terms of torque delivery, and thats only physics, no emotion -
They still sound like crap though :cool:

Too right.

Advances in high rail pressure fuel injection (eg. 1800 bar) coupled with Piezo-electric injectors, Variable vane Turbos, decent intercooler sizes and quality head design with DOHC makes for a decent punchy diesel engine. Important though is also advances in 6 spd and 7sp Autos that can better utilise the narrower torque/power bands of diesel engines.

Hell, The South Korean's are doing it even - Kia Sorento 2.2 Turbo Diesel - 145kw, 436Nm of torque. All of this can give fuel economy numbers of around 7.4L/100km (for a two ton car in the city!).

Just add this:

http://www.racechip.de/racechip-chiptuning/Kia-Sorento-II-2-2-CRDi-3361-r.html

....and you get 515Nm of Torque.

Which if you live in the city like I do - when your NA engine revs to 6,200rpm and chews 18L/100km whilst stuck in traffic doing an average of 25km/h, this is something to think about. (stats taken from my car).

Agree the diesel still sounds like crap though.

[OMR346]

although (for now atleast) the XR8 is no longer for saleYou serious? Ford arnt doing another repeat of the 80's are they? Do they not remember how they lost so many loyal fans, all becuase they dropped the beloved V8? Australians love there V8's, no matter how many do-gooder greenies there are out there, there will always be a market for V8s in Australia. Please tell me this is only a temporary act of insanity on Ford's behalf.

With out the Ford V8, Holden wouldnt have the competition it needs for that kick up the bum to make better performing cars.

[Wonky]

With out the Ford V8, Holden wouldnt have the competition it needs for that kick up the bum to make better performing cars.

Nobody on here gives a damn about the Ford V8s for comparative performance! The XR6T and F6 are a whole different ballgame!! Many are tempted, some have even gone over to the other side.

[Desertws6]

One thing that has been lacking in the US are diesel powered small vehicles.

The Volkswagen diesel rabbit is long gone. Mazda had a 626 model in the 80's. Both cars got 50mpg on the highway or 4.725L/100km. (US gallon = 3.78L) Exact same as a new Toyota Prius and no battery pack to replace.
Current diesel car production in the US is zero! Looking for a diesel car in the US? I think Mercedes has one here with a very high price tag.


Seems like something is missing in the corporate strategy.


Would I buy a diesel car as a daily driver......YES!
Already save the V8 for weekends only, during the week I don't really care.

Just my 2c worth.
,Steve

[TTVN]

who cares if the engines are smaller cos a bit of boost will fix that

i dont think the v8 thing should be canned just downsized

its all about the sound for me and im sure that most wouldbe happy to follow the euro cars and have 3L turbo v8's instead of v6s YUK lol

nothing quite like the sound of an 8 at 8000rpm

[Rick76]

The trouble with the entry level (under $30K) turbo diesels is the availability of auto gearboxes (my fiance can't drive manual). I haven't looked recently but last time I was looking into it the semi-decent choices were limited.

Some models only offer manual and others have detuned auto versions which negates the performance benefits that the manual versions offer. I guess it is because the standard autos used on the 4 cyl petrol shopping trolleys cannot reliably handle the extra torque of the TD in the same car?

[Martin_D]

Anything from the VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) is your answer. They use Dual Clutch DSG transmissions which are light years ahead of conventional manuals and autos. Even my Transporter van has a 7 speed DSG which gives it great performance and 7.8l/100km around town at 1800kg :)

[moconn20]

Won't this make 2nd hand V8s cheaper. I mean, if people afraid of the running costs of 8s or 6s opt for turbo 4 bangers, The arse will drop out of the performance V8 market.

Yippee, discount SS Commodores for all.

On the contrary, i would argue that it would make 2nd hand V8's more expensive....
With them no longer being produced, anyone who wants a V8 will be looking at the used market and prices will be driven upwards.

This scheme may (apparently) end the manufacture of V8's but it wont get rid of the demand for them.

[FlatfootV8]

Kill off the V8 and I will kill off my license I am fed up with companies telling people what they want it should be people telling companies what they want. I don't want a droony 4 cylinder powered commodore or falcon ok the Ford 6 does have a drone but you get my drift.

Frig the emissions give me a fire breathing V8 any day..

[dmenace]

So what would be the estimated mileage of the GenV V8?

[redvxr8clubby]

On the contrary, i would argue that it would make 2nd hand V8's more expensive....
With them no longer being produced, anyone who wants a V8 will be looking at the used market and prices will be driven upwards.

This scheme may (apparently) end the manufacture of V8's but it wont get rid of the demand for them.

I think I'd agree if there were no V8's being made, values would start to go up. I remember the Holden one tonner seemed to have very good resale compared to any other Holden before the Commodore based one tonner was released.

[v8dude78]

You serious? Ford arnt doing another repeat of the 80's are they? Do they not remember how they lost so many loyal fans, all becuase they dropped the beloved V8? Australians love there V8's, no matter how many do-gooder greenies there are out there, there will always be a market for V8s in Australia. Please tell me this is only a temporary act of insanity on Ford's behalf.

With out the Ford V8, Holden wouldnt have the competition it needs for that kick up the bum to make better performing cars.

From what i understand ford is dropping the V8 from its everyday line up (falcon, XR8, ect) and only FPV with the GT and GTP will have V8's from now on
Pretty silly really ford was just starting win back some of the ground they lost during the 80's when there was no V8 option

[Dougy]

Just finished reading an article in July's Motor Mag, Mercedes is replacing their 5.5 285kw/530Nm V8, with an 4.7 320kw/700Nm twin turbo V8. Fuel consumption improves from 12.3/100km in the 5.5 to 9.5/100km in the 4.7 and reduces emission from 288g/km to 224g/km. I believe that the V8 won't die, but it be less capacity or a hybrid with hopefully more power and torque. If GM kills their V8, we could always get some of these.

[OMR346]

Nobody on here gives a damn about the Ford V8s for comparative performance! The XR6T and F6 are a whole different ballgame!! Many are tempted, some have even gone over to the other side.So your saying if Ford drop the V8 all together, then it wont effect you? I agree that the 6t is what gives the LSx crew its main competition. they are a bloody great set up, and produce the numbers to give any LSx a run for its money.

But if Ford were to drop the v8 all together, then what would there be for Holden to compete with? With out saying the XR6t & F6, what REAL V8 rivals would they have in Australia? None. There will always be a market for V8's. And that means there will always be competition between car companies to make the best V8. With out one, the other would pretty much own the market, and wouldnt have to try hard to get the business.

That is what i am getting at.

[Ghia351]

You serious? Ford arnt doing another repeat of the 80's are they? Do they not remember how they lost so many loyal fans, all becuase they dropped the beloved V8? Australians love there V8's, no matter how many do-gooder greenies there are out there, there will always be a market for V8s in Australia. Please tell me this is only a temporary act of insanity on Ford's behalf.

With out the Ford V8, Holden wouldnt have the competition it needs for that kick up the bum to make better performing cars.Ford have dropped the XR8 from their website because they stopped building Boss290 powered XR8's a while ago, so why bother having it on the website when all that's available is dealer holding stock. Plus legally they can't build anymore after the new regs came in. As to what replaces it, then that will appear on someone's website once it's announced...and might be a few months away.

[Jag530G]

The thing to remember about the changes to America's Fuel Economy requirements, called "CAFE" is that it stands for Corporate AVERAGE Fuel Economy, you still sell V8's, V12's just as long as you sell plenty of fuel efficient 4cyl's as well, hence GM will produce the GEN V V8 (Ford the new 5.0L V8) which will be more efficient then the GEN III, IV (which were pretty efficient anyway, really) and sell boat loads of Chevy Cruzes so that the AVERAGE will be OK. The new CAFE requirements are why Aston Martin are looking to do a AM version of the Toyota Yaris, so that the average for AM is OK.

Companies that don't meet CAFE (Ferrari etc) will simply have a higher tax placed on the car price.

Bear in mind CAFE was bought in during the 70's but it excluded 4WDs (Suburbans, Cherokees), Trucks (F series) etc. Consequently your land barge car GM, Ford and Chryslers got downsized in the late 70's and early 80's, but buyers in time simply switched to SUV's which are the modern day land barge and not subject to CAFE.

Cheers, Matthew

[Martin_D]

Ford and FPV have dropped all normally aspirated V8 engines from their lineup. Take that as gospel :)

[Jag530G]

Ford and FPV have dropped all normally aspirated V8 engines from their lineup. Take that as gospel :)

But what you say doesn't preclude Supercharged V8's, and that is what FPV are getting. Low Boost 5.0 Quad Cam V8 for the GT and maybe, just maybe a High Boost 5.0 for a reborn GTHO.

Just remember, the new Ford 5.0 V8 shares some (and only some) common design elements withe the new 5.0L Jaguar V8 which is available as Atmo 285 Kw (in Jag XF, XJ, XK, Range Rover Sport/Vogue), Low Boost Supercharged 340Kw (in XJ Portfolio) and High Boost Supercharged 375Kw (in XFR, XKR, Range Rover Vogue HSE, XJ Super Sports). Ford have made available similar power levels for their engine.

Cheers, Matthew

[QIKMIK]

I believe that the V8 won't die, but it be less capacity or a hybrid with hopefully more power and torque. If GM kills their V8, we could always get some of these.I agree Dougy. Have a look at what Porsche is doing. Adding KERS style recovery systems to charge small battery packs. The Hybrid 911 racer/Spyder 918 has the stock motor in the rear and two 80kw (read 160kw total) electric motors in the front for a bit of extra push...or pull. Total power output of around 530kw.

I can't see Americans not building V8s. Fingers crossed.

Mick

[Ryzz]

Whilst ever there is demand for a product (V8's, etc), people will still build them. To kill of the V8 in a broad stroke would have MASSIVE repercussions in the economy. Can you think of how many businesses rely on selling products suitable for V8's. Now all of a sudden the V8 disappears, all these businesses no longer have a product to sell and go bust.

Sure this is a very simplistic view, but with sales of V8's GROWING as they are, they are not endanger of being extinct anytime soon. Whats the old saying "If you build it, they will come" :yup:

[moconn20]

Whilst ever there is demand for a product (V8's, etc), people will still build them. To kill of the V8 in a broad stroke would have MASSIVE repercussions in the economy. Can you think of how many businesses rely on selling products suitable for V8's. Now all of a sudden the V8 disappears, all these businesses no longer have a product to sell and go bust.

Sure this is a very simplistic view, but with sales of V8's GROWING as they are, they are not endanger of being extinct anytime soon. Whats the old saying "If you build it, they will come" :yup:

Not to mention the companies that rely on V8's themselves.
And would we be watching V6 Supercars on TV racing around Bathurst? i think not.

[Micks]

I'll believe this nonsense when & if it eventuates.

Cheers
VYT

[planetdavo]

I'll believe this nonsense when & if it eventuates.

Cheers
VYT

Yep.
The media certainly love these sorts of stories, as they know it will work people into a bit of a negative mindset frenzy.

[Martin_D]

Yep.
The media certainly love these sorts of stories, as they know it will work people into a bit of a negative mindset frenzy.

You are correct - as usual - Davo, and I commend you on having the experience that can allow you to look straight through the hype that seems to spring to the fore every few years. There will be no extinction of the V8, its just the same story that surfaces from time to time. Tricks for new players they call it :)

Build it and they will come. Holden does it. HSV does it :)

[moconn20]

Yep.
The media certainly love these sorts of stories, as they know it will work people into a bit of a negative mindset frenzy.

Buuuuut it didnt come from the media

[planetdavo]

Buuuuut it didnt come from the media

It didn't originate from the media, but they love spreading any suggestion like this. That's what the media do, spread "news". Check out google.
We would never have even seen a Gen 3 or Gen 4 powered Commodore if we all believed previous stories on the demise of V8 engines...
Many people are inherently negative, so these sorts of stories develop legs, before ultimately withering away into the hole they belong in.
V8's wont disappear. They might just become less common in time due to cost reasons, from the additional technology required to make them more economical. Basically how Europe is already. The US and Aus have had it unbelievably good for a long time.

[Carby]

It has to happen eventually, don't know why so many are surprised by the new CAFE. Oil is not going to last forever and even if you don't really believe climate change (I'm not convinced) anything that helps our air quality is a good thing.

I'm with the OP, GM definitely is behind as far as new engine technologies is concerned.

Won't have to worry about driving fast anymore soon - NSW is bringing out 6 Ford territories that have the ability to book 6 cars per a second in either direction - pass one of these babies and expect a fine through the mail real quick.

Driving use to be fun - soon it will be done as a necessity and not much more.

[flappist]

Whilst ever there is demand for a product (V8's, etc), people will still build them. To kill of the V8 in a broad stroke would have MASSIVE repercussions in the economy. Can you think of how many businesses rely on selling products suitable for V8's. Now all of a sudden the V8 disappears, all these businesses no longer have a product to sell and go bust.

Sure this is a very simplistic view, but with sales of V8's GROWING as they are, they are not endanger of being extinct anytime soon. Whats the old saying "If you build it, they will come" :yup:

15 years ago there were over 500 gun shops in QLD and at least 30 in Sydney let alone the rst of the country.

The banning of V8s would have the same effect as the banning of semi autos, a lot of noise from a very small minori enginety who will get vilified by the media and then after 10 or 15 years anyone who even talks about V8s will be viewed as a dangerous anti-social lunatic hoon.

The whole bottom line is that it is not Australia but USA that is doing this so all that will really happen is that there will be no more american V8s.

There are plenty of other options including making our own or importing european, japanese, korean or even chinese engines.

Herro herro you want buy copy V8....it good copy...even have bow-tie rike oliginal..... :)

[Mikey]

15 years ago there were over 500 gun shops in QLD and at least 30 in Sydney let alone the rst of the country.Wow is that right??? Why so many in QLD and so little (in comparison) in NSW? (edit sorry just read Sydney.)

The whole bottom line is that it is not Australia but USA that is doing this so all that will really happen is that there will be no more american V8s.I like your optimism flappist but the problem is that Holden only use American V8's

[glavas]

I like your optimism flappist but the problem is that Holden only use American V8's

what about the 5l? that was australian. holden will just make another one that will be just as tough and sound just as awsome.

[moconn20]

what about the 5l? that was australian. holden will just make another one that will be just as tough and sound just as awsome.

oh are you paying for that? cause i know holden aint

[silvervyss]

what about the 5l? that was australian. holden will just make another one that will be just as tough and sound just as awsome.

Hope not, i have chev badges on mine :jester:

[planetdavo]

This still going????
Just about any half major company you care to name has a V8 in it's range somewhere.
Calm down.

[Martin_D]

Hyundai especially :bow:

[quityabitchn]

there is way to much demand for them to stop making them, so i say a big fat thumbs down

[VX2VESS]

what about the 5l? that was australian. holden will just make another one that will be just as tough and sound just as awsome.

dunno to much effort for them for both motors maybe might do a 6 themselves here

could buy the rights to the v8 and get it made in China i guess.. be rattling even more then.

Masseratti v8 or merc v8 perhaps same size much more power...

[pacman]

A v8 makes anyway no sense - but who wants to know

[AndrewR8]

From what i understand ford is dropping the V8 from its everyday line up (falcon, XR8, ect) and only FPV with the GT and GTP will have V8's from now on
Pretty silly really ford was just starting win back some of the ground they lost during the 80's when there was no V8 option

Ford can jump in and correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Ford have killed off the XR8, the new motor and drive lines are still being finalised and Ford are not importing any more 5.4's as the new motor is currently behind schedule and should be in action. Ford would have programmed to run the coyote at this current time and they can't as there are drive line issues or something I saw on AFF.

The reason above means that the is no XR8 to sell at the moment.....and therefor really can't market the car which is why it has been removed from Ford.com.au. I think its the same for FPV, they have indicated limited V8's available for immediate sale...

However lots of sources indicate the XR8 will get the NA 5.0 coyote. If FPV sell the only V8 Falcons then expect a similar GS style vehicle to come out and sit next to the SS.

I really think that if Ford can produce a serious V8, lots of I6T owners will look to ditch the turbo for the 8 (lots of T owners indicate that on their forums), in my mind that would be a good way to start pushing purchasers away from the I6T motor and start winding that program down as it's days are numbered.

Back on the subject, just because its a V8, doesn't mean it has to be big! There can be smaller capacity V8's.