Audi RS4.... Dont understand how its so fast?

[Bingo BIlly]

I went for a drive in a 2006 audi RS4. Felt bloody brutal and sounded magnificent. I was not driving but a passenger. The car was manual.

I went home and had a look at an old Motor Magazine. Apparently they are rated at 309kw and 420nm torque? I was thinking 420nm doesnt sound much? I mean even a bog stock LS1 delivers 470nm.

I just dont understand how a car with such low torque can feel so brutal. Sort of like Hondas, they never have any torque on paper but have good kw at very high revs.

I mean an Audi Rs4 is supposed to run the quarter in a high 12, but with 420nm? how????

[Wonky]

See http://www.rsportscars.com/audi/2007-audi-rs-4/

[dgp]

AWD my friend

[XLR8 V8]

It may have a max torque of "only" 430Nm, but when 90% of that is consistently available over much of the rev range (between 2250 and 7600 rpm), the car just feels like it pulls like a train all the way from idle to the limiter.

[Bingo BIlly]

but still only 420nm.

so it revs to 7600rpm and pulls like a train just off idle? Must have big rev range, nice big sweet spot.

In the car it felt like it had plenty down low.

[U.S.S_XR8]

as said, AWD and good gearing

[Don't need one]

they are a decent package thats for sure, they dont look like much, c6 rs6 is a wild machine but 426kw and 650nm. if the pricing wasnt so hectic probly see more rs's around

[troytroy]

The answer:

1. A modern (ok, so it's already been replaced by a V6!!) kick arse engine that doesn't have any flat spots and has a useable torque and power band stretching to eternity (unlike my LS1 2,500 odd rpm sweet spot)

2. AWD - makes it feel (and is) quicker for the first two gears

3. 4.11 diff ratio with six speeds makes sure there is never a dull moment

4. VE owners take note(:jester:) - Kerb weight 1680kg

5. GRIP - lots of it - even has 9" wide tyres on all four rims. (skinny 8" wide LS1 owners would need 12" rims equivalent on the rear to have similar grip)


Wikipedia engine comments This engine was (and still is) light years ahead of GM technology.

32-valve (four valves per cylinder) all aluminium alloy engine. New cylinder block construction, and is a highly reworked, high-revving variant (redline at 8,000 rpm, rev limit of 8,250 rpm),having cylinder-direct injection (Fuel Stratified Injection). It has two roller chain-driven double overhead camshafts per cylinder bank, and utilises variable valve timing for both inlet and exhaust camshafts, along with a cast magnesium alloy fixed tract length intake manifold with adjustable tumble flaps. It produces a maximum output of 309 kilowatts (420 PS; 414 bhp) at 7,800 revolutions per minute whilst consuming 98 RON Super-Unleaded petrol, giving it a specific power output of 74.2 kW (99.5 bhp) per litre. Based on a kerb weight of 1,680 kilograms (3,704 lb), this results in a power-to-weight ratio of just 3.93 kilos per bhp. This engine also produces 430 newton metres (317 ft·lbf) of torque at 5,500 rpm, 90 percent of the total torque being available between 2,250 and 7,600 rpm. The engines' waste gasses escape through two '4-into-2-into-1' fan-branch alloy steel exhaust manifolds and four high-flow metallic sports catalytic converters, and exits via twin oval tail pipes with integral dynamic silencer/muffler valves. Engine management is controlled via two Bosch DI-Motronic MED 9.1 electronic engine control units, and utilises Bosch 'E-Gas electronic throttle control (also known as drive by wire). The ignition system uses eight individual single-spark coils, utilising mapped direct ignition, with Bosch or NGK long-life triple-electrode spark plugs. Ignition timing is monitored with the aid of four knock sensors. It is compliant with the Euro4 European emission standards.

It'd be a close fight for me whether I'd have one of these or a C63 AMG......

[Bingo BIlly]

but all that for 430nm? Thats the part that startles me. The old vs clubsport 185 motor made close to that torque and went nowhere. Its also no lightweight either.

Im thinking a ls2\ls3 would be superior above 100km\h??

[VTV691]

Acceleration 0-62 mph s: 4.8 *very nicee*
Tires F-R: 255/40 R18 *these must grip well!*


I like it!:goodjob:

All I can say is WOW at the interior ..

http://cdn-www.rsportscars.com/images/audi/2007-audi-rs-4/audirs405_inter1600.jpg

[nikola]

but all that for 430nm? Thats the part that startles me. The old vs clubsport 185 motor made close to that torque and went nowhere. Its also no lightweight either.

Im thinking a ls2\ls3 would be superior above 100km\h??

I think it's the high rev range which allows shorter gearing. So even though it has 100nm less than an LS engine at the crank, the amount of torque that gets to the wheels is probably just as high. And it's also a lighter car than modern Commodores.

[Peter B - CV8]

but all that for 430nm? Thats the part that startles me. The old vs clubsport 185 motor made close to that torque and went nowhere. Its also no lightweight either.

Im thinking a ls2\ls3 would be superior above 100km\h??

Torque comes in handy when you are towing etc..... but it doesn't always been you have a quick vehicle.

[NeishaVESS]

You cant really compare these cars to a Holden as most are doing, you can buy 3 new SSV's for the price a 2008 RS4 is going for with 50000kms on the clock..

Ive driven these at work and if you had the cash would be a awesome car to own, the E63 still has my vote though.

[feistl]

I think the comparison was based on torque levels, not price/quality.

As the OP says, its bloody quick with what appears to be a low level of power/torque (Comparatively).

AWD helps at lower speed, but after 3rd gear i have no trouble with traction with an LS1.

It would be interesting to see the rwkw/awkw figures for both cars. Weight does have a lot to do with it, as well as smoothness. Would also be interesting to see them in a drag race... A VE has the same 0-100km time does it not?

[blown vess]

......................

[planetdavo]

Perhaps a good lesson to many that the figures on the dyno sheet aren't the be all and end all of life...
Revs= power. Money helps this. :yup:
Lots of AWD grip= high rpm launches= quick 0-100km/h times (a BIG killer of powerful RWD cars like Commodore).
Good gearing, particularly gearing that avoids a time consuming 2-3 shift just before 100km/h helps many cars "on paper" too.

[jc_sv8]

F1 cars have around 270Nm or torque - they seem to go pretty fast...

0 to 300 km/h (186 mph): 8.6 seconds!

Help when they run at 19000rpm

[troytroy]

Perhaps a good lesson to many that the figures on the dyno sheet aren't the be all and end all of life...
Revs= power. Money helps this. :yup:
Lots of AWD grip= high rpm launches= quick 0-100km/h times (a BIG killer of powerful RWD cars like Commodore).
Good gearing, particularly gearing that avoids a time consuming 2-3 shift just before 100km/h helps many cars "on paper" too.

Spot on.

Once the RS4 is at speeds above 80km/h I wouldn't expect it to pull away cleanly from a factory top spec LS1 or LS2. If you add passengers in the RS4 - then it will start feeling comparatively sluggish pretty quickly.

I'll caveat the LS1/2 comment by comparing either a HSV VYII spec 285kw, VT-VY 300kw GTS or any LS2 297kw version. At least engine wise, the above cars are similar in power spec and weight wise (VT-VZ bodied cars)

When you consider the fact there are probably ten times more bolt-on/mildly modified LSX cars running around than RS4's and that 99% of RS4's will be unmodified - then the performance playing field gets very blurry.

[surfwagon]

I think the comparison was based on torque levels, not price/quality.

As the OP says, its bloody quick with what appears to be a low level of power/torque (Comparatively).

AWD helps at lower speed, but after 3rd gear i have no trouble with traction with an LS1.

It would be interesting to see the rwkw/awkw figures for both cars. Weight does have a lot to do with it, as well as smoothness. Would also be interesting to see them in a drag race... A VE has the same 0-100km time does it not?

So your saying that VE L98/L76's do 0-100kph in 4.8secs, interesting.

[blown vess]

mine does lol only the supercharged rs4 does it 4 sec

[duke5700]

From a higher speed roll on there won't be too much in it.

[feistl]

So your saying that VE L98/L76's do 0-100kph in 4.8secs, interesting.

Just watching top gear (S13E07). They say the VE will do 0-100 in 4.9 seconds, and they actually drag a Maloo agasint a RS4, it wins by a car length or so.

The RS4 gets a great jump, but the maloo pulls it in with POWEEERRRR.

So yeah, not a stock VE but a HSV VE (My mistake).

A VZ Clubby will do 5.1 0-100 apparently, so thats up there with the RS4. Plus i think the commodores would pull harder above 100kph where weight and grip have less impact.

[Wonky]

Just watching top gear (S13E07). They say the VE will do 0-100 in 4.9 seconds, and they actually drag a Maloo agasint a RS4, it wins by a car length or so.

The RS4 gets a great jump, but the maloo pulls it in with POWEEERRRR.

Was that the supercharged Maloo? :confused:

[feistl]

Was that the supercharged Maloo? :confused:

The Sedan was supercharged, the Maloo was N/A.

For what its worth...

1:25.7 - Audi RS4
1:26.3 - Vauxhall VXR8 Bathurst S
1:27.1 - HSV Maloo

So yeah, make of that what you will. My point was more that the Audi will feel quick due to the grip and the way it uses the power, but in a 1/4 mile drag race its not, if at all, faster than a LSx based commodore.

So yeah, i love the Audi i think its a lot better car, but if your JUST taking power and acceleration, the commodore is fairly even.

[XU1_VE6]

mine does lol only the supercharged rs4 does it 4 sec

To clarify the RS4 was the previous shape Audi A4 with a 4.2 V8, the supercharged varient that was indeed compared to the maloo on top gear is the Audi S4 current model which is a supercharged V6. At the present time there is no rs4 model in the current shape a4. You can still get the cracking V8 in the S5 though.

The previous shape A4 was a lot smaller and lighter than the current model a4, and using alloy panels and other lightweight components attribute to its performance...... and awd helps too.

[Hamster]

Would be interesting to see how close the S4 and old RS4 would be in a drag, given the new car has a DSG gearbox.

[Bingo BIlly]

I read that the RS4 is good for a 12.8 down the quarter. Thats ahead of any Holden or HSV. But in saying that it has the AWD takeoff to get a good start. Cutting a 12.8 suggests its not falling away up top either.

Ive never understood how Hondas get their performance with lack of torque (type R etc) and now I dont understand it with RS4. Big revs and tight gearing.

[ittwgn]

hi maybe it felt faster because you were in pas seat ie not in control??? remember for 1/3 the price a lot of us here will put it to shame!!!!

[bonners]

Ilove these things. My fav car of the last 5 years.

I would buy one in a heartbeat

[Plenty]

4. VE owners take note(:jester:) - Kerb weight 1680kg



How bout its not the same size family sedan as a VE, what about the RS6? 2T worth of weight! and a similar size to the VE

[BNGTO]

I have had an RS4 before and they are good but they have a clear sweet spot above 3000-3500 rpm right out to about 7000: they're a bit of a rev head for a V8 but it makes the sound and the speed all that much more fun. I have had one in Germany also for a week and had one trip on the A9 which was relatively clear and over 150 it still had a fair bit in it; not M5/RS6 levels but no problem pushing it up to the 272 limit.

The S4 is detuned to buggery and with only a flash they'll murder an RS4: the new body is fairly good on weight, much better weight distribution with the engine behind the front axle and it has the torque vectoring diff which makes it I would say almost the best car I have ever driven in a corner, possible exception the R8 5.2, Possible. Grip is insane on that thing. Have been driving one the last few days and I would say I would nearly get one (done up of course) over my car. We had them both out last night out where we can have fun in Kawasaki and it's pretty impressive in standard form. With a flash and exhaust hitting 550 horse it's going to be insane

[steve_t]

The S4 is detuned to buggery and with only a flash they'll murder an RS4

Yup. I know a few guys with S4s and they've all got MTM chips The before and after performance is like night and day!! Amazing machines!!

[CLUBRED]

Ilove these things. My fav car of the last 5 years.

I would buy one in a heartbeat

Ditto, but I want the Avant.

[Bingo BIlly]

so if its the awd which separates the rs4 from the ls2\ls3, how come our own attempt the coupe 4 wasnt any faster than the standard hsv clubbie.

Id still love to own a coupe 4, my favourite hsv of all time.

[iloveholden]

so if its the awd which separates the rs4 from the ls2\ls3, how come our own attempt the coupe 4 wasnt any faster than the standard hsv clubbie.

Id still love to own a coupe 4, my favourite hsv of all time.

Extra pounds killed it, as did the crappy A4.

[surfwagon]

so if its the awd which separates the rs4 from the ls2\ls3, how come our own attempt the coupe 4 wasnt any faster than the standard hsv clubbie.

Id still love to own a coupe 4, my favourite hsv of all time.

The Coupe4 could only be had with a 270kw LS1 because of the torque rating for the AWD system.
Other VZ HSV's used the then newer LS2, 297kw engine.
There are a few blown coupe4's around, wonder how there drive trains have stood up to the power increases.


_______________________________________________
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=121025

[DTAILA]

lightweight, good gearing , an 8000rpm redline and plenty of grip my friend.

[BNGTO]

Yup. I know a few guys with S4s and they've all got MTM chips The before and after performance is like night and day!! Amazing machines!!

MTM and Abt (who did my car) go to the safest tune possible and if I understand it correctly with the gen2 DSG's that is 550Nm, the Abt one I know if 435 horse and around 520 Nm which is up from 333 horse so it's a massive gain but still within the transmissions limits. I am not sure if the manual can handle more torque, I would guess not as the reason Audi went with the Conventional Auto for the RS6 was nothing else was able to handle 650Nm.

The Abt Manual lists at 4.6 seconds to 100 compared to the DSG at 4.8 so still the manuals are holding their own. That makes it faster than the RS4 with a very mild tune. But it's the handling that this car has over all others. Be interesting to compare this to the RS5 which is said to be the business but that ios not going to be as easy to mess with as the detuned S4.

[AndrewR8]

My boss had a RS4, it opened my eyes to Audi very quickly...bloody hell it went and handled!!!!

Great all rounder, built well, goes well, decent room, looks the goods (not too over the top)...did I mention goes well.

And yes mate the AWD system and the bi-turbo setup and gearing give the RS4 its brutal goooo...compare a FPV F6 dyno sheet to HSV R8 and you see why the turbos get up and go very quickly...now make the F6 AWD and your on your way to building a friken quick car.

[flappist]

Power is torque times RPM so if you run at 80,000RPM you demonstrate a lot of power with very little performance.

Max torque can also be an illusion. It is the area under the torque curve that will give you a more accurate indication of capability.

A LSx with a max torque of 550Nm@5000rpm will work very well with a constant speed grearbox that allows the engine to remain at 5000rpm.
As the default 6 speed system requires the engine to move from 2500 to 6000 in each gear the actual torque demonstrated will vary from the low 200s up to max and then drop again.
This is primarily due to the nature of naturally aspirated engines.

Forced induction however (particularly turbo) will allow an engine to demonstrate max torque across a much wider range compensating for the "shortage" of gear ratios.

This is why a totally anonymous 6 cylinder vehicle has caused so much angst over the last 5 years or so :)

[BNGTO]

And yes mate the AWD system and the bi-turbo setup and gearing give the RS4 its brutal goooo...compare a FPV F6 dyno sheet to HSV R8 and you see why the turbos get up and go very quickly...now make the F6 AWD and your on your way to building a friken quick car.

That is probably the surprise of the RS4, compared to the RS4's before it (B5 model) is that it's normally aspirated. The S4 which is supercharged a 6 with a mild tune will take it out though. Just without the cool V8 soundtrack.

Only problem is with a lot of AWD systems is to cope with a lot of power/torque they get expensive which probably makes it hard for Ford or Holden to mess around with it.

[Plenty]

My boss had a RS4, it opened my eyes to Audi very quickly...bloody hell it went and handled!!!!

Great all rounder, built well, goes well, decent room, looks the goods (not too over the top)...did I mention goes well.

And yes mate the AWD system and the bi-turbo setup and gearing give the RS4 its brutal goooo...compare a FPV F6 dyno sheet to HSV R8 and you see why the turbos get up and go very quickly...now make the F6 AWD and your on your way to building a friken quick car.

ummm the RS4 is N/A!

[XU1_VE6]

Lots of confusion between RS4 and S4, 99/00 S4 was bi-turbo, RS4 was NA, and current S4 is supercharged. B7 RS4 FTW...... u can't beat pumped guards :)

AndrewR8 ford already has a awd F6........ its called the F6X territory :rofl:

[CRA16Y]

i love RS4's, and as much as i love my ls1, audi has so much more engeneering then the humble ls1, the ls1 is a dinosaur in comparison.

[mustanger]

I would have an RS4 in a heartbeat ...:drool:

[BNGTO]

Lots of confusion between RS4 and S4, 99/00 S4 was bi-turbo, RS4 was NA, and current S4 is supercharged. B7 RS4 FTW...... u can't beat pumped guards :)

AndrewR8 ford already has a awd F6........ its called the F6X territory :rofl:

One important car missing, which never hit Australia, was the B5 RS4 which was a heavily worked biturbo 6. That was a development from the B4 RS2 which was an inline 5 from the original quattro developed by Porsche to go into the A4 Avant.

B6 and B7 S4's ran a 4.2 NA and the B7 was the first with the 60:40 Rear Torque split which was a huge step forward which carried through the RS4. Which was ace, until Torque vectoring (sport differential) came along and changed the rules. The new S4 is a giant step ahead in handling from the B7 platform, as the RS5 is meant to be also but I haven't had a shot at that yet.

[Martin_D]

I just dont understand how a car with such low torque can feel so brutal.

They actually arent particularly quick.......recalibrate your expectations I think :)

[Blown 454 AWD]

Holden AWD system is fine, I haven't seen any damage to my AWD system at any time. :)

The 4L60e was a waste of time with our AWD system as the AWD system is obviously much stronger than the 4L60e, just put in a 4L80e and game over for the drive line.

Then just go fukin stupid with power and you have a Audi eating Holden.

Nothing a 1000 hp won't fix :) 1000+ hp AWD Holden is a anything eating Holden

One big advantage Audi have is they're legal :goodjob:

I could see myself with one of these later on, must be AWD though, fuk skidding tyres on the road, it's terminal these days.

Cheers

Steve

[XUV]

The Coupe4 could only be had with a 270kw LS1 because of the torque rating for the AWD system.
Other VZ HSV's used the then newer LS2, 297kw engine.
There are a few blown coupe4's around, wonder how there drive trains have stood up to the power increase

The torque rating of the AWD system is 1500nm ,
the 4L65 tranny is the week link once you hit 350kw .

And the only reason the AWD system had 270kw ,
is because of the smaller extractors , due to space restrictions with the AWD system .

Running 300kw at the fly is no drama .

[FireArc]

Is the car in question DOHC?

[momento1]

audis are awesome machines..


i own a worked 2001 B5 S4 2.7L Twin Turbo

my last dyno run (approx 3 years ago) i achieved only 250kw at all 4 wheels and 530NM at 3,200

since then i have tweaked boost, installed water/meth injection, enlarged exhaust, bit of this and bit of that and am aiming for 300kw atws conservatively

They do make some great fun cars to own and drive... however maintaining them (Especially coming on to 10 years old) is a fun rollercoaster for the hip pocket... :jester:

[BNGTO]

Is DOHC per bank so Toyota would call it a Quad Cam. Is a Direct Injection engine also and has variable valve timing.

[momento1]

One important car missing, which never hit Australia, was the B5 RS4 which was a heavily worked biturbo 6. That was a development from the B4 RS2 which was an inline 5 from the original quattro developed by Porsche to go into the A4 Avant.

B6 and B7 S4's ran a 4.2 NA and the B7 was the first with the 60:40 Rear Torque split which was a huge step forward which carried through the RS4. Which was ace, until Torque vectoring (sport differential) came along and changed the rules. The new S4 is a giant step ahead in handling from the B7 platform, as the RS5 is meant to be also but I haven't had a shot at that yet.

yes the B5 RS4 did come to Australia, albeit in limited numbers (from memory approx 20 black and 20 silver)

[BNGTO]

yes the B5 RS4 did come to Australia, albeit in limited numbers (from memory approx 20 black and 20 silver)

Well if it didn't come in Red it shouldn't count. :)

They were nearly as fast as the B7 also, pretty mean feat at the time.

[momento1]

Well if it didn't come in Red it shouldn't count. :)

They were nearly as fast as the B7 also, pretty mean feat at the time.

well i know of one at the moment with just a chip and exhaust which is putting down ~340kw at the fly for a 10 year old car with no other mods and in stock form (body and engine wise)... so its bound to be a sure thing....

[steve_t]

They actually arent particularly quick.......recalibrate your expectations I think :)

Is that relative to an Omega or an R35 GTR? :rofl::rofl: