SDM Data used to Convict HSV driver

[HSVDKB]

The data retrieved from a VE HSV clubsport SDM has been used to determine and ultimately convict a driver.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4006781/Airbag-data-convicts-driver

[vzss05]

Big Brother is Watching!!!!:1peek:

[momento1]

the is a time and a place for speeding... and the road isnt either the time nor the place..

unfortunately this is all too common...

[feistl]

Give it time...

These devices will be hooked up to GPS systems, so when you go more than 2km/h over the speed limit a electoric fine will automatically be generated.

Long live the old school cars!

[HEKYEH]

The technology is there...so why not use it?

If I was the victim of some moron's driving, I'd be very appreciative of the technology available to help convict them!

If you don't break the law then there shouldn't be any issue about "big brother" watching...

[seedyrom]

Yes, the injuries are horrific, and it is disgusting that the driver pleaded not guilty



Quote:
Mr Kerr was in a coma for 10 days and in intensive care for three weeks. He spent the six months after the crash on his back, totally immobile. It was 10 months before he could start learning to walk again.

A hospital registrar said he was the worst case staff had seen.

Mr Kerr suffered multiple fractures, including to all his limbs and his pelvis. "He was literally turned inside-out in the accident, with both arms forced up his back so far his arms came above his shoulders."

His left thigh was forced through his pelvis, smashing his hip and pelvis. His knees and ankles were fractured, and he had been scalped, she said.

"The only way they could get him out was by wrapping a fire hose around his middle as it was the only place he wasn't injured."

Mr Kerr had recently been told to consider amputation of his right arm as it would never recover. He was teaching himself to write with his left hand.

He still has to visit the doctor regularly and sees a psychologist twice a month to deal with grief and loss.

The couple did not qualify for ACC income support because they had lived abroad. They had no income since the crash, surviving on a small Work and Income benefit.

"Everything we have worked for in the last 10 years is slipping away."

She said it was not till after Hohaia's conviction that he approached the Kerrs for a restorative justice programme.

"You professed to being not guilty, despite the findings of the crash investigator and even the black box. So what would you say? Sorry? For 18 months you pleaded not guilty. You have nothing we want to hear. It's too little, too late."

[vu ss777]

the is a time and a place for speeding... and the road isnt either the time nor the place..

unfortunately this is all too common...

+1 for that , certainly makes you think.

[Vulture]

Sounds like some sort of mod is in order to wipe the data...

[seedyrom]

if a family member of mine was killed, i'd hope to hell that there was no mod done in order to excuse the killer.

[BOBGEN111]

if a family member of mine was killed, i'd hope to hell that there was no mod done in order to excuse the killer.

Agreed.
Dont do stupid stuff on the street and nothing will happen.

[mustanger]

:confused::confused:What happens if your rear wheels come off the ground at impact and you rear wheels start spinning freely, (become airborne), does that that mean you were doing 200kmh . I am not to keen on this type of evidence , as there may be too many variables.

[seedyrom]

:rofl: :rofl:

:confused:


Please come back and post the circumstances that would allow that to happen. PLEASE!!!

[moconn20]

:confused::confused:What happens if your rear wheels come off the ground at impact and you rear wheels start spinning freely, (become airborne), does that that mean you were doing 200kmh . I am not to keen on this type of evidence , as there may be too many variables.

so you hit another vehicle.... your wheels lift off the ground and spin freely @200km/h... all before the airbag goes off?

riiiiiiight.

[jono0309]

hahah he's a smart cookie aint he

[MJR-57T]

:confused::confused:What happens if your rear wheels come off the ground at impact and you rear wheels start spinning freely, (become airborne), does that that mean you were doing 200kmh . I am not to keen on this type of evidence , as there may be too many variables.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

150km/h 2.5 seconds BEFORE the impact. They're not going to take into account anything after the impact.

[steveholb]

totally agree,way to many variables to consider.it wont be long and people will find a way to delete data stored in black boxes allmost instantly,time will tell.

[iloveholden]

totally agree,way to many variables to consider.it wont be long and people will find a way to delete data stored in black boxes allmost instantly,time will tell.

Yep right, only a matter of time before people find a way.

Guy is an idiot for pleading not guilty but like mentioned, there are too many variables for this type of data to be used in court imo.

[mustanger]

:rofl: :rofl:

:confused:


Please come back and post the circumstances that would allow that to happen. PLEASE!!!

You are in an 80kmh zone ,doing 50kmh and under hard accelaration hit an oil patch and your car car hits the speed limiter , you car would show that you were well over the speed limit, when in fact you were not...:teach:

[mustanger]

so you hit another vehicle.... your wheels lift off the ground and spin freely @200km/h... all before the airbag goes off?

riiiiiiight.

What`s to say they you didn`t spin your wheels on the nature strip or gravel etc ...before the impact .........:teach:

[momento1]

You are in an 80kmh zone ,doing 50kmh and under hard accelaration hit an oil patch and your car car hits the speed limiter , you car would show that you were well over the speed limit, when in fact you were not...:teach:

same example can be said if you are doing a burnout and crash mid-way through... point taken!
although most newer cars are also fitted with anti-slip measures (e.g. ESP, Traction control etc) so that would no doubt prohibit the sudden 50km/h to 200 km/h record breaking acceleration

However the question remains is... why the hard acceleration? or why the burnout?? and why on the street????????

[MJR-57T]

Then the court will have evidence of the oil from crash investigation and depending how the black box reads data will show a spike in speed thats not normal for a car with that much power.

[MJR-57T]

same example can be said if you are doing a burnout and crash mid-way through... point taken!
although most newer cars are also fitted with anti-slip measures (e.g. ESP, Traction control etc) so that would no doubt prohibit the sudden 50km/h to 200 km/h record breaking acceleration

However the question remains is... why the hard acceleration? or why the burnout?? and why on the street????????

Again, the ESP or traction will prevent a burnout. That would have to be disconnected.

I reckon its a great idea to find the impact speed. All the above mentioned burnouts, oil spills and loss or traction by median strip etc will be determined by the Accident Investigation on scene at the time. It will just back up the Accident Investigations speed findings. If you have even been to an incident and seen the gear that they have, you'll be blown away.

A few weeks ago they were taking photo's of a headlight globe to determine weather or not the guy had his headlights on before he crashed. Simply by the expansion of the filament. Blew us all away. Think they could test upto 4 hours later.
So the airbag unit isn't going to be the only factor in determining the final impact speed. Just a backup.

[mustanger]

I am all for new technology to bring down our road toll ,but not on SDM data alone. This is completely different to a black box in an aeroplane which costs thousands of dollars .


The information needs to be 100% accurate and not just some random numbers that may have been estimated and variables that have been made up.

[mustanger]

So the airbag unit isn't going to be the only factor in determining the final impact speed. Just a backup.

I have seen high speed impacts where the airbags have NOT gone off and vice versa.

[macca33]

There is more than one method to determine speed at / prior to collision.

I'm fairly certain that those involved in the investigations use mathematics, coupled with extensive scene examination, to determine the requisite values and perhaps, compare those results with data from a data recorder...:idea:

John, there is no trick - what I'd be more concerned about, if I was the purchaser of a new car who loved to perform top speed tests, or burnouts; is the fact that the car company may be able to download a history of vehicle usage, then discharge a warranty as a result of the discovery of evidence of abuse......:yup:

[Clubb'N]

Holy sheet, i know a family with that name ... i must investigate and probe people ...

[Dieselman]

Data from the Holden's "black box" or SDM (sensing and diagnostic module) was analysed in the US and showed the car had been travelling at 150kmh 2.5 seconds before the collision, and 98kmh 0.5 seconds before the collision.


How fast would it drop 52kmh????

2 secs seems quick unless he was on the brake already????

[rgmast]

How fast would it drop 52kmh????

2 secs seems quick unless he was on the brake already????

So how fast might he be going 5 secs before if he was braking at 150 ?

[Dieselman]

So how fast might he be going 5 secs before if he was braking at 150 ?

That is what I was thinking.

Still way too fast on a public road either way

[Party Pete]

I'm guessing, going fast coming up to a corner, realising too late that the corner is tighter than thought, full brakes (probably still turning into the corner) and running wide on exit into the path of another car. Frankly, I hate the idea of having big brother looking over my shoulder, but used after a crash has occurred with serious repercussions is fair enough. It would have been part of an extensive list of evidence all of which pointed to the guy losing control of a high performance car while going too fast for the conditions.

[Wazza]

You are in an 80kmh zone ,doing 50kmh and under hard accelaration hit an oil patch and your car car hits the speed limiter , you car would show that you were well over the speed limit, when in fact you were not...:teach:

Im sure the SDM would be showing far more info than the speed displayed to the driver - as the car has ABS and ESP it would have and store individual wheel speeds, so in your example they would see that the front wheels were going 50km/h and the rear wheels were going much faster, and be able to determine that the rear wheels have broken traction - they would also have details on throttle and brake application, so could see that you were accelerating hard.

Also if it's a serious enough accident for them to be getting the SDM data (it would have to be serious injury or potential fatal) they would also get crash investigations out, who would find the oil on the road, and I'm sure they could put 2+2 together.

[moconn20]

How fast would it drop 52kmh????

2 secs seems quick unless he was on the brake already????

Keep in mind the SDM records wheel speed, not vehicle speed... if he lost it around the corner doing 150ish, then he may have been sliding sideways. Theoretically in a full sideways slide the speed could possibly show as 0km/h moments before impact.


What`s to say they you didn`t spin your wheels on the nature strip or gravel etc ...before the impact .........:teach:

I think you're failing to understand that this evidence isnt used alone, it is used in conjunction with a wide range of crash investigation procedures... which would obviously detect this to be the case.

However they would probably also be asking why your ESP was turned off if your spinning your wheels at 200km/h whilst sliding sideways along a nature strip.


You are in an 80kmh zone ,doing 50kmh and under hard accelaration hit an oil patch and your car car hits the speed limiter , you car would show that you were well over the speed limit, when in fact you were not...:teach:

As other have said, the massive spike in speed would be quite obviously noticed... but again they would be wondering why your ESP was turned off.

[seedyrom]

I can't believe you are even getting involved in his "rebuttal" by entertaining the notion of someone going from 50km/h to REV LIMITER in a loss of control situation, on the road.

It is the dumbest, most ill conceived notion ever put forward on this site. Even more unrealistic than the "ghosts in the car yard".

In 4th gear, lose traction, THEN hold the car at full throttle for 2.5 seconds whilst sliding before impact, to somehow have the wheels spinning at 200km/h.

You would NEVER make it happen. NEVER.

Prove me wrong. You cant.

Jack your car up and try it without any load. Then think about a few hundred kilos of weight over the back wheels.

[MJR-57T]

There is more than one method to determine speed at / prior to collision.

I'm fairly certain that those involved in the investigations use mathematics, coupled with extensive scene examination, to determine the requisite values and perhaps, compare those results with data from a data recorder...:idea:

John, there is no trick - what I'd be more concerned about, if I was the purchaser of a new car who loved to perform top speed tests, or burnouts; is the fact that the car company may be able to download a history of vehicle usage, then discharge a warranty as a result of the discovery of evidence of abuse......:yup:

I'm not sure if it was a joke or not but I can remember stuff going around a few years ago that the little triangle in the VY Clubsport's rear wings used to produce a whistle around 150-160km/h. If you complained, you lost your warranty

[heavychevy]

Urban myth - why would your warranty be affected.

A similar myth that was never substantiated - the VTii dash chime responsible for playing amusing tones like - 'dah dah dit dit dit dit' :) when the handbrake is not fully released, playing the 'death march' tune if you exceeded 200kph :eyes:

[Jamolad]

So this SDM thing is taking actual speed of the wheels, and not from the speedo?

Was curious how it worked, as was wondering if it would be accurate if you fitted different diff gears but did not get the speedo recalibrated.

Either way, I feel truly sorry for the innocent victims in this collision while my heart only pumps piss for the womble who only accepted responsibility when all other avenues were closed.

I have no problems with how this SDM data has been used in this case, but like others would not like to see it used to refuse warranty claims etc. Wasn't there something about Nissan refusing warranty claims on the new Skyline's gearbox if they downloaded telemetry that showed the owner had activated launch control - or was that an urban myth (not sure why they would void a warranty if you used a feature they installed on the vehicle, so figure it must be BS)

[feistl]

I can't believe you are even getting involved in his "rebuttal" by entertaining the notion of someone going from 50km/h to REV LIMITER in a loss of control situation, on the road.


I agree, but i still think its a bad idea. In this case, the guy was an idiot and should be convicted... But you set a precedence, and its a very slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?

Im sure at one point in time speed cameras were a very useful tool towards reducing road toll and increasing safety.... but when taken out of context and used for the wrong purpose (EG reveune raising rather than road safety) you have a problem.

So we all agree that doing 100kph OVER the speed limit is stupid, and should be convicted. And we all agree that being 1kp/h over SHOULDNT be convicted. But where is the middle line? 80kp/h over? 2kph over?

There is the grey middle line that has me very worried. 20 years down the track, whats to stop you being sent a fine every time you exceed the speed limit by 2kph?

Im pretty sure i got a fine today on the eastlink freeway. I was coming back from a funeral, there were no cars around me (to judge speed) and i was in a bit of a daze. I was watching the road, but not the speedo. I think im gonna get a ticket for 105kp/h. I mean, how is that road safety? It was the middle of the day, in a massive freeway, no one around me and i can get charged like $160 for going slightly over??

Mean while the road toll is at its highest point in years, and there are less cops actually patrolling the road.

[moconn20]

So this SDM thing is taking actual speed of the wheels, and not from the speedo?


Where do you think the speedo gets its reading from?

[stockergts]

they already montier speeds in trucks
they have a ciccle of paper behind the speedo that cops have the key for when you go above said speed limit say 100 they then know that at 100kph the line should be at point a and its actually at point b then you get a fine

[Jamolad]

Where do you think the speedo gets its reading from?

I have no idea, which is why I asked.

I thought maybe from the gearbox or something, otherwise why do we need get the speedo recalibrated if we fit diff gears? Like I said, I have no idea and don't pretend to know.

[Dieselman]

they already montier speeds in trucks
they have a ciccle of paper behind the speedo that cops have the key for when you go above said speed limit say 100 they then know that at 100kph the line should be at point a and its actually at point b then you get a fine


They haven't used tacographs for years. It is all stored in the trucks computer or engine control module :eyes:

[oranpark_addict]

I have no idea, which is why I asked.

I thought maybe from the gearbox or something, otherwise why do we need get the speedo recalibrated if we fit diff gears? Like I said, I have no idea and don't pretend to know.

In the wet give it a little boot with traction control off and watch the speedo indicating way higher than your actual vehicle speed:)

And yes to your recalibration question.

[mustanger]

In 4th gear, lose traction, THEN hold the car at full throttle for 2.5 seconds whilst sliding before impact, to somehow have the wheels spinning at 200km/h.

You would NEVER make it happen. NEVER.

Prove me wrong. You cant.




Who said anything about 4th gear and reaching 200kmh :confused:.......It was all about breaking traction :burnout:.....The speedo is reading one speed , but the car is actually doing another speed.:teach:

Don`t always believe what the computer is saying :nono:

[whitels1ss]

Jack your car up and try it without any load. Then think about a few hundred kilos of weight over the back wheels.
I agree Seedy, and I also reckon if you tried it the traction control would stop it! :confused:

[Party Pete]

If the only evidence of wrong doing was the computer's short term store of information just before the accident, they wouldn't even be looking. At the end of the day we need a crash to happen and then the investigators to believe that excessive speed speed was involved. To be bothered extracting the information and to convince a court beyond reasonable doubt that the driver was driving in a reckless/dangerous manner, there would need to be considerable information pointing to highly excessive speed. The information from the car therefore just becomes part of the evidence presented. So far the precedent set has been one case in the US where two teenage girls were killed by a driver who was doing 120mph in a 30mph zoned suburban street. The other is this NZ case. In both cases I doubt few would object to the information being used to convict the drivers who had acted irresponsibly and hurt someone. Although I also fear a future where everyone gets an automatic fine every time they slip 1 km/h over the limit, we are a long way short of this at the moment.

[Jamolad]

...Although I also fear a future where everyone gets an automatic fine every time they slip 1 km/h over the limit, we are a long way short of this at the moment.

Surely Vic can't be that far away :jester:

[Wazza]

So this SDM thing is taking actual speed of the wheels, and not from the speedo?

Was curious how it worked, as was wondering if it would be accurate if you fitted different diff gears but did not get the speedo recalibrated.


I'm just assuming here, but I would say it would show more than just the 1 speed - I wouldn't be surprised if it showed each individual wheel speed (received from the ABS sensors which get the actual wheel speed) as well as the speed being indicated on the dash/speedo. It would also indicate throttle position, whether you are braking (and how hard), whether ESP/Traction control is on or off etc.

[RABSP]

These boxes record more than just a few seconds, they would be able to tell the G value and speed before, during and after impact.

[2ajmanvell82]

I think that in the right circumstance this sort of data should be able to be used as evidence. I don't think it should be able to be used by the manufacturer to destroy warranty as you should be able to do a trackday/dragday or a skid pan driving day or the like in a controlled environment and not get screwed for it.
But these computers are able to log so much data not just speed of tyres that there is going to be a whole lot of lead up data, ESP data and speeds, TPS, etc.. I'm sur if after impact or after loss of control there be a throttle stuck wide open etc that it will be seen and known it were the result of "X" reason.

It sad to see it had to go to this length for him to plead guilty and that the sum paid out is nothing for the damages done. I feel it is good to be used in the right way that if yourself or anyone be injured that the truth can come out and get what u deserve, myself being a victim of an offroad moto x incident causing me Paraplegia, knows there is no compensation amount that can make up for it, but if were the result of a guilty driver, should be able to use all data available to prove the truth.

I feel this should be all it be used for as in a similar way as a flight black box recorder if there is an incident/crash, but if the car is getting driven and caused no harm it should not be able to void warranties or get the driver a fine for small, easily made slight speeding mistakes without being stupid, as these small overspeeds usually catch the poor people that are very unlikely to cause any harm, while there be maniacs cutting loose in town or in older cars getting away with it! Use your normal, everyday devices that keep it fair between who you are and driving any model vehicle.

[moconn20]

Who said anything about 4th gear and reaching 200kmh

Ermmm, you did.


What happens if your rear wheels come off the ground at impact and you rear wheels start spinning freely, (become airborne), does that that mean you were doing 200kmh .




These boxes record more than just a few seconds...

Actually thats all they record, a few seconds. Remember, its not a blackbox flight recorder.


The "black box" can record information covering a period of up to five seconds before a collision, depending on the model.

[mustanger]

Ermmm, you did.








Hey cockhead, that question was not directed at you.:confused:


Plus it still doesn`t say 4th gear and 200 kmh in the same statement...:lol:....so back to the drawing board for you :teach:...:lmao:

[vschaser]

Where do you think the speedo gets its reading from?

the gearbox actually

[vschaser]

In the wet give it a little boot with traction control off and watch the speedo indicating way higher than your actual vehicle speed:)

And yes to your recalibration question.

Yes, because when you rear wheels spin faster, so does your tailshaft and transmission (where the speed sensor is).

If you do the same thing in an older car without abs/ESP the speedo will still do the same thing

[seedyrom]

Hey cockhead, that question was not directed at you.:confused:


Plus it still doesn`t say 4th gear and 200 kmh in the same statement...:lol:....so back to the drawing board for you :teach:...:lmao:

You were wanting me to reply?

I asked you, I begged you to explain how you could spin the wheels to an equivalent of 200kmh. Still waiting.
You reckon you can hit oil at 50km/h, but then spin to 200km/h in 2.5 seconds.
I figured 4th gear would get you to 200km/h, and cruise at 50km/h prior to the impact.

How can you do it? I'm asking AGAIN.

[mustanger]

Hey Seedy, it was used as an example and a figure of speech .

Would it make a difference if the speedo was showing 100kmh?.......Answer is no , the speed indicated is more than the speed of the vehicle was actually travelling, ..........that is my point :teach:

[vschaser]

the speed indicated is more than the speed of the vehicle was actually travelling, ..........that is my point :teach:

but it's not because they can See the front wheels are still doing the same speed.

Also they can see a sudden spike in rear wheel speed and no change in throttle position, aswell as realizing that the car cannot accelerate that quickly.

[moconn20]

Hey cockhead, that question was not directed at you.

Plus it still doesn`t say 4th gear and 200 kmh in the same statement...:lol:....so back to the drawing board for you :teach:...:lmao:

Hi, welcome to the public forum.

And if you think you can do 200km/h in anything less than 4th, i think you need to head back to the drawing board.

Thanks for the cute petname by the way.