Best Brakes for $6K-$8K for a VZ?

[DRAGON]

Just hoping to get some opinions on what the "best" brake kit for a VZ is in the $6K-$8K price range.

I was previously looking at some Harrop Ultimates, but am concerned of the reports from other people that they squeal, so am now comparing options first.

Ideally I want 6 piston front calipers, the option for black calipers, and 380mm rotors. I'd be happy with 4 piston rears and 350-360mm rotors.

Any other suggestions as to what other "kits" I should be looking at?

Cheers

[SirNemesis]

If you use Harrop brakes the way they are intended, they don't squeal. It is similar to the whole Tex Z-grip debate.

With my Harrops (Extremes 6piston 355mm front, 4piston 355mm rear) they do squeal if you just take it easy in traffic, but if you give them a decent amount of pressure every now and then it silences them for a few days.

Check out the big AP Racing kit aswell, there are several reports that these out-do the Harrop equivilants.

[Pickles]

You're best off looking for a S/H set of AP 6 Spots which sometimes come on to the market in your price range.....maybe a forum member has a set, or knows someone who has a set for sale.
Cheers Pickles.

[Scott@VCM]

Hi Dragon,

you have have the Harrop Ultimates new for $6500.00 for the kit

6-pot fronts / 4-pot rears

http://www.harrop.com.au/root_folder/brake_assemblies/ultimate_vt_vz.html

:)

We have had no worries with 'squeeling' after replacing the brake pads with Ferodo's ;)


cheers

Scot @ VCM

[255-LS1]

What is the intended purpose for the car?

[DRAGON]

What is the intended purpose for the car?

At the moment it's my daily driver... But there may be the occasional track day or 1/4 mile run that I'd like to attend.

I also have a project car, which is a VS wagon that's pretty modified and is in the process of having a L98 put in to it. However I am tossing up whether to sell up or not. If the wagon gets sold, then there will be alot more $$ to spend, and I can easily justify having these sorts of brakes on my daily driver if I only have 1 car.

Looks and wank factor also come in to play I guess. (And the fact that I have wanted brakes like this for a good 3-5 years)

Depending on what happens with the wagon, this car will either up end up some form of engine combo ranging from a L98 or LS3, with a HTV1900 or HTV2300 blower.

I've been taking all the above in to account when looking at brakes.

[macca_779]

Have you considered the PBR M Series Brakes. They're a 6/4 combo with 355mm slotted rotors on all 4. Your looking at about $5k for the kit. Not a squeal in sight and perform extremely well. In fact I'm yet to find their limit and that's not for lack of trying.

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=132378
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i39/macca_779/M%20Series%20Brakes/P2183656.jpg

[255-LS1]

yer what you've said pretty much sums it up, your intended use only really leads to looks and wank factor. Considering its a daily, you should also be mindful of servicing costs cos big rotors and pads are not cheap mate!!! IMO the PBR / HSV twin piston package does a great job for a daily driver if your not planning on giving it a hard time often. Just doesn't look as flash as 340+mm rotors and 6 piston calipers lol. Id do a more conservative brake upgrade and then put the remaining saved money into that Harrop charger!!

If your still keen for big brakes, the AP 4 piston front and rear are awesome for the $$$ if oyu can find a second hand package.

Anyhoo, good luck with it.

[feistl]

Having had most of the kits mentioned on my car at one point, ill offer some feedback.

The "ultimate" harrops require 19" wheels, which is horrible for track days. 19" rubber is bloody expensive, offers less grip, saps more power etc etc.

The PBR kit is cheap and nasty. I would avoid at all costs. the biggest issue is the lack of pad choice... Its pretty much PBR or Hawk, and thats it.

Ive finally ended up with AP racing 6 piston kit. The are only 362mm which means they'll fit under 18s" (which is much better), and have a MASSIVE choice of pads and rotors. I dont have any official numbers, but they are noticably better than the harrop ultimates.

For around your price you should be able to find a decent kit second hand (or possibly new). If their genuine AP, you can buy a reseal kit and new pistons (restores them to new condition). If you find a HSV version, you cant get replacement seals etc from Holden without a HSV build number.

If your doing track work, get a set of blank solid DBA rotors and get "j-hooks" cut in in a two peice kit. This will offer the best stopping power for the money (and should be inside your budget).

Have a set of DS2500 pads for road use, and a set of race pads for the track. Track pads DONT work on the street.

If your doing 1/4 mile drag races, you want standard brakes on the rear so you can fit small rims with M/T rubber. Be careful though, the brake bias/balance will be thrown out so its not really recommended.

I was lucky enough to pickup my set for $4k even with a GENUINE >5,000km on them (They were basically brand new and in AWESOME condition). However it did take months of looking and having the cash ready on sort notice.

Just becareful of what sales people will tell you. The guys at harrop said their kit was "the best on the market".

Alcon (kit used on the V8 supercars) would be your best bet, but not going to happen in your budget.

Cheers, Errol

EDIT, your not talking about the VS Manta Wagon? EG road_warrior from streetcommodores? If so.... Im so interested in that car :D

[DRAGON]

feistl, my budget is not exactly fixed, I had just figured that this sort of money would buy a decent higher end kit which would be overkill for a daily driver :)

What does a new 6 piston AP kit cost?

As for the wagon, that's not my one, but we are both crazy enough to be spending $20K-$30K doing 6L conversions :)

Main differences being that my wagon was originally an auto V6 exec, that was then re-wired as a caprice/has caprice interior, sunroof, airbags...etc.

Final plan was to have caprice interior and exterior, 6L+T56, 20s, sunroof, 20K stereo, airbags...etc.

80% of the parts are laying around, just not much time/motovation to make it all happen.

His 6L setup seems to be going for more of a race spec car, no aircon, elec water pump...etc, where as I was going to keep all the "luxury" features with my swap (climate, cruise...etc)

Haven't heard from him for a while, I wonder what stage his car is up to now!?

[macca_779]

The PBR kit is cheap and nasty. I would avoid at all costs. the biggest issue is the lack of pad choice... Its pretty much PBR or Hawk, and thats it.


You would want to have some pretty good evidence to support your NASTY claim. Monoblock Callipers, Rotors that don't chew out every few thousand k's like AP's do and OEM use on the Z06 Corvette I would hardly call NASTY. I've driven on all HSV OEM gear except the VE 6 piston AP's and the PBR's have equivalent stopping power and IMO better pedal feel in light use.

[feistl]

feistl, my budget is not exactly fixed, I had just figured that this sort of money would buy a decent higher end kit which would be overkill for a daily driver :)

What does a new 6 piston AP kit cost?

Haven't heard from him for a while, I wonder what stage his car is up to now!?

Um, JHP have the AP6 kit for $8900, but trade via race brakes sydney was $6900 new IIRC. Actually may have been $6400... sorry i cant remember. But somewhere around that mark.

Even for a daily, their amazing. The pedal requires such less pressure to really pull the car up. I actually find the braking more impressive with AP's than the acceleration of a stroked LS1.


You would want to have some pretty good evidence to support your NASTY claim. Monoblock Callipers, Rotors that don't chew out every few thousand k's like AP's do and OEM use on the Z06 Corvette I would hardly call NASTY.

Well the fact you cant get any decent track pad is a major problem, and the only HAWK pads around are expensive considering the performance. There is a reason why the entered the market at just over $6k, and can now be found on ebay for just over $4k.

Unfortunately for the very short period i had them on my car i didnt get to use them on the track, but they didnt have the "bite" of the APs, and seemed to fade faster. Its hard to say as it was months between the 4 different kits i tried/used.

But yeah, Ive spoken to a number of people using them and in the industry, and while their good bang for buck at the lower end, their no comparison for the harrop/ap 6 piston kits.

You get what you pay for. (that said, they are better than the xyz brand on ebay :spew:)

[Maloo03]

Have you used the XYZ kit?
Has any1 used/got them?
6P 355mm F&R
8P 380mm F&R
8P 400mm F&R
Kit including braided lines,pads 355 F & 330 B About $3000-$3500 reasonable price I thought.


Brad

[Delft Maloo]

Buy my ap racing 4 piston kit with 350+330 rotors and spend the rest of your coin on some descent suspension setup and a set of good track tyres:goodjob:.

[macca_779]

Um, JHP have the AP6 kit for $8900, but trade via race brakes sydney was $6900 new IIRC. Actually may have been $6400... sorry i cant remember. But somewhere around that mark.

Even for a daily, their amazing. The pedal requires such less pressure to really pull the car up. I actually find the braking more impressive with AP's than the acceleration of a stroked LS1.



Well the fact you cant get any decent track pad is a major problem, and the only HAWK pads around are expensive considering the performance. There is a reason why the entered the market at just over $6k, and can now be found on ebay for just over $4k.

Unfortunately for the very short period i had them on my car i didnt get to use them on the track, but they didnt have the "bite" of the APs, and seemed to fade faster. Its hard to say as it was months between the 4 different kits i tried/used.

But yeah, Ive spoken to a number of people using them and in the industry, and while their good bang for buck at the lower end, their no comparison for the harrop/ap 6 piston kits.

You get what you pay for. (that said, they are better than the xyz brand on ebay :spew:)

I don't think your in a good enough position to comment then to regard them as cheap shit. I've performed multiple $2.60 stops and haven't experienced any fade that detracts from maximum deceleration performance. Far better pedal feel than the HSV AP's and better high speed performance than the OEM Harrops. I'm getting race pads made for them too. The fact that all 20 pads are the same means fabrication is cheap. Plus you can't dismiss the fact the AP supplied rotors are absolute shit and wear out ridiculously quick. Just ask any late model HSV owner. Sure you can get replacement DBA Rotors but that blows the cost out even more.

I also know none of the other options run nearly as neutral front/rear balance than the PBR's. The large rears takes up more braking power than the alternatives from a bias stance to a point where you have to watch your down shifts without locking the rears. Could be a bit nerve racking if you use engine braking. But brilliant if you know how to brake properly.

[Groboz]

I can't comment on the APs or Harrops but I love my PBR M-series brakes. They do the job of pulling up the Monaro at the end of the straight at Hidden Valley VERY well. That's around 220 km/h to 80 km/h in seconds in an auto so no engine braking; the PBRs are doing all of the stopping. Haven't experienced any brake fade either or rotor problems. Had them almost a year now with half a dozen track days.

The lack of after market brake pads I admit is an issue but the PBR pads are a high street performance / low end race pad. It's not ideal for racing but is a good all-rounder. Braking is still great but at the expense of lots of dust and accelerated pad wear. I can live with getting new pads more often than usual. :)

[Rors]

Alcon (kit used on the V8 supercars) would be your best bet, but not going to happen in your budget.


When I was looking around for brakes for my VE (ended up just going HSV AP's) I found that the Alcons are not as expensive as a lot of people think. Should be able to get both front and rear kits with rotors, brackets etc etc for under or close to the $8k budget of the OP no problem. They won't be identical to the V8 supercar brakes but are easily comparable (if not better than) Harrops, PBR's or HSV AP's.

If I was looking to spend $8k that's probably the way I'd go. You may find you can get some second hand HSV AP's for a lot less tho and I'm sure they will up to the task.


http://www.tweakit.net/shop/index.php?cPath=57_228_229_237&osCsid=f16f9pch0lahsc8ef6ul0u7l77

If you look at this site you will see the Alcon kits are also pretty comprehensive:

2x Alcon Monobloc 6 piston calipers
2x Alcon two piece Discs
- Discs: 365mm Alcon 48 zone vented directional, half moon slotted Discs
- Hats: Custom made to suit the car so no spacers are required
4x Brake Pads
- For Road and occasional track use the Ferodo DS2500 or
- For Full time race use the Ferodo DS3000.
2x Caliper mount brackets
2x 500ml Brake Fluid
Full set of mounting hardware such as bolts, nuts and washers required and bolts up to factory brake lines.


As you can see they come with very high quality rotors, excellent Ferodo pads and even some good fluid. Just order the kit and bolt them on. They are also avaliable with a few different rotor options to suit different wheel sizes and avaliable in 4 or 6 piston calipers.

If you've got the cash to splash go the Alcons. If not look at some second hand HSV AP's. I'm sure you'll be happy either way.

[Rors]

yer what you've said pretty much sums it up, your intended use only really leads to looks and wank factor. Considering its a daily, you should also be mindful of servicing costs cos big rotors and pads are not cheap mate!!! IMO the PBR / HSV twin piston package does a great job for a daily driver if your not planning on giving it a hard time often. Just doesn't look as flash as 340+mm rotors and 6 piston calipers lol. Id do a more conservative brake upgrade and then put the remaining saved money into that Harrop charger!!

If your still keen for big brakes, the AP 4 piston front and rear are awesome for the $$$ if oyu can find a second hand package.

Anyhoo, good luck with it.

No offense 255-LS1 but I would steer clear of the PBR / HSV twin piston package. I had them on my VZ maloo and was able to cook them several times driving on the street with standard power levels. In a car with a blower out on the track I'd be keeping an anchor in the car to throw out the window when they stop working.... :)

[feistl]

I don't think your in a good enough position to comment then to regard them as cheap shit. I've performed multiple $2.60 stops and haven't experienced any fade that detracts from maximum deceleration performance. Far better pedal feel than the HSV AP's and better high speed performance than the OEM Harrops. I'm getting race pads made for them too. The fact that all 20 pads are the same means fabrication is cheap. Plus you can't dismiss the fact the AP supplied rotors are absolute shit and wear out ridiculously quick. Just ask any late model HSV owner. Sure you can get replacement DBA Rotors but that blows the cost out even more.

Well the OP asked for feedback, thats what i provided. You get what you pay for, and i dont think the PBR kit is as good as the APs. Making up 20 pads might be ok in your situation, but it'll be a pain in the ass for most people.

Unless anyone has done some scientific back to back testing then its all opinion based. But running a 1900kg car at Sandown (one of the worst tracks for brake abuse) on a number of track days really works the brakes hard. The 240kph down to 80kph braking applications (twice per lap) and doing 40 minutes straight sessions really tests any braking system.

So thats up to the OP to decide which system to go for. Considering i picked up a set of basically new APs for $4k means its a direct comparison to the harrops/PBRs.

Amazingly when i spoke to Matt at Race Brakes in Sydney, he also said the APs were better and to avoid the PBR set. I had specifically told him that id be buying second hand, so its not like he was pushing one brand to make a sale.

[255-LS1]

No offense 255-LS1 but I would steer clear of the PBR / HSV twin piston package. I had them on my VZ maloo and was able to cook them several times driving on the street with standard power levels. In a car with a blower out on the track I'd be keeping an anchor in the car to throw out the window when they stop working.... :)

rofl i must drive like a girl then :lol: they have never given me any dramas to warrant upgrades. i dont know what rotors or pads it has but they were re-done when i bought it.

[DRAGON]

Thanks for the opinions guys, didn't mean to start an argument.

I'll do a bit more research on the PBR, AP, and Harrop kits and pick one of them!

I'll also have a bit of a look at some Alcons as suggested by Rors.

Looks like Race Brakes Sydney sell AP, Alcon, and PBR. Might try giving them a call next week to see if I can get an unbiased opinion of the 3 :)

[bortous]

Hi mate. I have a VZ clubsport R8 with the 6 piston AP brakes.
I have the actual CP5555 version which is the highest performance street version they sell but it requires 19 inch wheels to fit. its about $500 more expensive than the hsv 6 piston option but is far better quality and runs two bridge bolts and the assembly is 50% stiffer too along with a staggered piston pattern to maximise bite and even pad wear.
I can tell you they stop extremely well and dont squeal.
I have used the bendix SRT pad and a custom pad and never had squealing issues.
I would also strongly recommend that you get braided brake lines all through. There are 6 hoses all together and this will improve pedal feel and be more consistent when hard braking.
I would avoid the harrop at all costs as they are not as good.
The only other option I would recommend is the alcon as they are used on V8 supercars and they have some mean packages.
cheers

[planetdavo]

Thanks for the opinions guys, didn't mean to start an argument.

I'll do a bit more research on the PBR, AP, and Harrop kits and pick one of them!

I'll also have a bit of a look at some Alcons as suggested by Rors.

Looks like Race Brakes Sydney sell AP, Alcon, and PBR. Might try giving them a call next week to see if I can get an unbiased opinion of the 3 :)

Errr yeah, good luck avoiding a sh!tfight on internet forums whenever brake packages are involved. EVERYONE seems to have an opinion...:jerk:
I do agree though that from what you said are your requirements, the person calling the M series PBR's "sh!t" is out of line, and voicing their own personal opinion rather than genuinely helpful input.
If you are going to TRY and get an unbiased opinion from Race Brakes, I'd highly recommend you ask about the costs of service parts for each option, as what gives you a boner now might send you to an early grave after a few track days lead to hideously expensive new rotors etc...

[Evman]

I have the AP 4 piston kit all around and think they're great. They do squeal a bit under light use, and the dust is an absolute nightmare. The rotors really are shit, I've had mine machined 3 times and every time within 1000km they'd get a bit of warp back into them and shake through the steering. DBA replacement rotors for the front (the rears are fine, fronts get the warp) are near on $1000 each because they only sell them in the two-piece version, 5000 series. If you know someone with a good trade account with Coventry's (thankfully I do...) they're almost half price. Mine haven't gotten bad enough again to warrant it but I wont be getting these disks machined again, and instead will get the DBA rotors.

Stopping power is truly awesome and they resist fade really well. I took these on a track a while ago and they were nuts. I didn't reach their limits because I just couldn't bring myself to go hard enough into a corner :lol: If you jump on these and you have decent tyres you'll almost put your head through the windscreen :lol:

So improvements for these brakes are decent front rotors that dont warp as easily, and maybe some brake pads that put off less dust. That's all I can fault on them.

[feistl]

Well some proof to backup my claims...

Did a track day at Sandown yesterday with the AP 6 piston set and some race pads from Matt in Sydney (The custom ones he makes).

We did NONSTOP back to back sessions for 3 hours straight in the morning (only coming in for a 90 second pitstop to change drivers every 20 minutes) and another 3 hours in the afternoon. We managed a 1:29.1 with the car weighing just over 2,000kg including driver and only 276rwkw. So it shows how hard we were braking/cornering.

The brakes were fantastic. Normally you should do 2 fast laps with one cool down, we were doing 10-12 fast laps then coming in the pits for a drivers change. The brakes were still easily causing ABS to come on at 200kph with very sticky semi slicks (EG LOTs of bite) on the 10th straight fast lap.

The pads lasted the whole day which was very impressive. We are hoping to get some air cooling to help cool them (which should make the pads last longer).

On previous track days the harrop/ap 4 kits could only do 3-4 hard laps before starting to fade.

I didnt use the PBR/Harrop 6 piston kits on the track, so i cant give a direct comparison, but doing some hard road diving up/down lake mountain, i was getting fade on the PBRs towards the bottom... So they would have been worse on the track.

So if your after looks and worried about price, then any of the kits will work. If your looking for a really serious kit for track days/racing, then my testing highly suggests the AP 6 kit are the best option.

Cheers

[Plenty]

When I was looking around for brakes for my VE (ended up just going HSV AP's) I found that the Alcons are not as expensive as a lot of people think. Should be able to get both front and rear kits with rotors, brackets etc etc for under or close to the $8k budget of the OP no problem. They won't be identical to the V8 supercar brakes but are easily comparable (if not better than) Harrops, PBR's or HSV AP's.

If I was looking to spend $8k that's probably the way I'd go. You may find you can get some second hand HSV AP's for a lot less tho and I'm sure they will up to the task.


http://www.tweakit.net/shop/index.php?cPath=57_228_229_237&osCsid=f16f9pch0lahsc8ef6ul0u7l77

If you look at this site you will see the Alcon kits are also pretty comprehensive:

2x Alcon Monobloc 6 piston calipers
2x Alcon two piece Discs
- Discs: 365mm Alcon 48 zone vented directional, half moon slotted Discs
- Hats: Custom made to suit the car so no spacers are required
4x Brake Pads
- For Road and occasional track use the Ferodo DS2500 or
- For Full time race use the Ferodo DS3000.
2x Caliper mount brackets
2x 500ml Brake Fluid
Full set of mounting hardware such as bolts, nuts and washers required and bolts up to factory brake lines.


As you can see they come with very high quality rotors, excellent Ferodo pads and even some good fluid. Just order the kit and bolt them on. They are also avaliable with a few different rotor options to suit different wheel sizes and avaliable in 4 or 6 piston calipers.

If you've got the cash to splash go the Alcons. If not look at some second hand HSV AP's. I'm sure you'll be happy either way.

Problem is that's just the fronts for $5500 add the rears and your nearly at $10k

[Pickles]

Hi mate. I have a VZ clubsport R8 with the 6 piston AP brakes.
I have the actual CP5555 version which is the highest performance street version they sell but it requires 19 inch wheels to fit. its about $500 more expensive than the hsv 6 piston option but is far better quality and runs two bridge bolts and the assembly is 50% stiffer too along with a staggered piston pattern to maximise bite and even pad wear.
I can tell you they stop extremely well and dont squeal.
I have used the bendix SRT pad and a custom pad and never had squealing issues.
I would also strongly recommend that you get braided brake lines all through. There are 6 hoses all together and this will improve pedal feel and be more consistent when hard braking.
I would avoid the harrop at all costs as they are not as good.
The only other option I would recommend is the alcon as they are used on V8 supercars and they have some mean packages.
cheers
Good post. A few years ago, before we bought the GTO, we had a S111 CV8, to which I wanted to fit better brakes, so I rang Competition Friction in the ACT...I think they may be the Ferodo/AP agents for Aus. They confirmed whhat you have said about the AP CP5555 as against the AP/HSV set up. However, they said that it would be almost impossible to tell the difference. They said that whilst CP5555 was theoretically better, the AP/HSV item had performed flawlessly in production car racing...HSV GTS's etc (can't remember the name of the class!), in very "serious" conditions, & said that that the HSV/AP set up, in conjunction with DS2500 pads, would be perfect.
I never fitted them to the Monaro, I bought a new VZ GTO instead, & optioned the HSV/AP 6 spots, which have now done 73000+ Ks on the original pads/rotors.....they are simply brilliant....I've never heard anyone to be unhappy with them.....so I say.....find some!
Cheers, Pickles.

[Rors]

Problem is that's just the fronts for $5500 add the rears and your nearly at $10k

The Alcon monobloc 4 piston kit is $3,600 rear and $4,089 front. They would be ample for this application. Going AP's (other than used HSV calipers which, as I mentioned above are a good option if you don't want to spend a bomb) will cost around this much anyway.

For $10k you could get the "supercar spec" set which if you have a read on the website are actually larger than current V8 supercar brakes..... Unless you have a slicks and some serious talent on the race track they are going to be pretty heavy overkill for a street car. Not that I wouldn't love a set....

[troytroy]

Some of the most important things that make a difference on a racetrack - tyres, brakes and power. We have dynos for the latter but no objective tests for the first two.

I'd love to see three identical cars (same weight and same tyres) with these different braking types to see what differences there are. Then change pad types, then add cooling ducts etc. Motor mag are you listening?

It would be interesting to see the difference each variable does. I wouldn't be surprised that the pads would make a bigger difference than the caliper brand and $50 of cooling duct would make a difference than $3,000 worth of brandname. If people are willing to spend 10k on brakes then surely spending some money to take off 100kg would make a bigger difference than spending an extra 5k on brakes??

I'd love to see XYZ calipers with decent brake pads and cooling duct go against some top name brand name stuff.

I assess this thread will be worthless without comparitive objective analysis. May as well close the thread now. ;) Until that happens surely we can just assume that if it's more expensive than it's gotta be better right?

[Plenty]

The Alcon monobloc 4 piston kit is $3,600 rear and $4,089 front. They would be ample for this application. Going AP's (other than used HSV calipers which, as I mentioned above are a good option if you don't want to spend a bomb) will cost around this much anyway.

For $10k you could get the "supercar spec" set which if you have a read on the website are actually larger than current V8 supercar brakes..... Unless you have a slicks and some serious talent on the race track they are going to be pretty heavy overkill for a street car. Not that I wouldn't love a set....

sorry i was referring to your post of the 6 Piston set-up, i recently have put harrop monster kit on my car (no track use) they are so good for street use instant bite with the DS2500 pads, and the braided lines made so much difference as well all up cost including braided lines $4400.
356mm (14") ventilated front and 356mm (14") ventilated rear rotors, two-piece cast aluminium four piston calipers, small spacers were needed with the standard rims though.

[troytroy]

sorry i was referring to your post of the 6 Piston set-up, i recently have put harrop monster kit on my car (no track use) they are so good for street use instant bite with the DS2500 pads, and the braided lines made so much difference as well all up cost including braided lines $4400.
356mm (14") ventilated front and 356mm (14") ventilated rear rotors, two-piece cast aluminium four piston calipers, small spacers were needed with the standard rims though.

Bloody good price for aftermarket brakes with all the right gear.

[Plenty]

Bloody good price for aftermarket brakes with all the right gear.

they come with the choice of the ds 2500 pad or the ds 3000??? the race spec pad?

the lines i got cheap, just happened to know someone that had a set, i'm not sure what they would be like on a track probably not much chop but they do me fine on the street with the occassional spirited drive. :)

[Rors]

Some of the most important things that make a difference on a racetrack - tyres, brakes and power. We have dynos for the latter but no objective tests for the first two.

I'd love to see three identical cars (same weight and same tyres) with these different braking types to see what differences there are. Then change pad types, then add cooling ducts etc. Motor mag are you listening?

It would be interesting to see the difference each variable does. I wouldn't be surprised that the pads would make a bigger difference than the caliper brand and $50 of cooling duct would make a difference than $3,000 worth of brandname. If people are willing to spend 10k on brakes then surely spending some money to take off 100kg would make a bigger difference than spending an extra 5k on brakes??

I'd love to see XYZ calipers with decent brake pads and cooling duct go against some top name brand name stuff.

I assess this thread will be worthless without comparitive objective analysis. May as well close the thread now. ;) Until that happens surely we can just assume that if it's more expensive than it's gotta be better right?

The thing is that testing brakes against each other isn't all that easy. Standard SS brakes are able to lock all 4 four wheels and engage ABS. On standard road tyres in a single 100-0 they will probably pull up just as quickly as a car with AP's. Out on the track though, it's going to be very different.

For the racetrack you really need to know what they are going to be like pulling you up from 200km/h repeatedly, lap after lap, week after week, year after year.

Setting up an actual test for this would be very difficult. There's a lot of variables and it would cost a lot of money.

There are people doing this kind of testing though. Race teams. Just look at what competitive race cars are using. Most of them have to pay for their brake setups like everyone else and will obviously use what gives them the best results in a track/race environment. You will find the same brands being used again and again. AP racing, Alcon, Brembo, Project Mu etc. I can't count how many times I have seen these brands used on track cars that are winning races.

I have never seen a car win a serious race (hot laps around maccas carpark not included) using XYZ, K sport, insert chinese brand here calipers. I'm sure it may have happened or will happen in the future (whether or not the calipers used to do this are the same as the ones they actually sell to the public is a different matter) but just looking at how nearly all the teams use the higher end brands religiously is surely telling you something.

You will notice that brembo, AP, alcon etc almost never advertise. This is because their products speak for themselves. They get tested week in, week out in all forms of motorsport at race tracks all over the world and perform very well. How often do you see a V8 supercar's brakes fail? They are all using Alcons.

[HSV Listy]

Little story but as advised earlier brakes are only as good as the tyres that are on the car.
I used the street rubber (dunlops from a FPV too) for circuit racing practice on yesterday and they were not real good. The brakes completely outdid the street tyres. They do not even get used to anywhere near full capacity on street tyres. I am not talking about lap after lap but just normal hard braking the tyres were just screaming, ABS constantly coming on and the car did would not pull remotely what they do with good sticky tyres. Ok it was faster that street use I guess but still tyres need considering.
With some good semi slicks the brakes and tyres work dam awesome and work extremely well with each other.

So have a little think about the combination of rubber and brakes and not just massive big brakes. They do look good big brakes though and definitively part of the deal. I run the AP 6/4 piston set up. They have been great.

Little example video. Sorry but start the video at 2.40 as it is not shorted video. Pretty slippery

YouTube - Practice Day Hidden Valley. Top of car view. Starts at 2 min 30. Recorded on RaceVid Extreme

[stockergts]

something else to consider is the type of pad you are running i have harrops on my car no problems running lucas/ebc pads i got a ve with the ap running ebc reds and i have a customer with alcons running yellows ebc pick hte pad to suit what you use it for you cna get a fair upgrade by spending 400 buck on pads and some braided lines
my old wagon had rda molycarbide rotors ebc green pads braided lines and bf307+ brake fluid and i could run around wannaroo with guys with much bigger brakes and still not have many problems keeping in mind they are only ebc greens
here is a temp range listing for rda/ebc pads lucas are simalar to green
http://www.brakefabricatorswa.com.au/pad_selection_chart

[troytroy]

The thing is that testing brakes against each other isn't all that easy. Standard SS brakes are able to lock all 4 four wheels and engage ABS. On standard road tyres in a single 100-0 they will probably pull up just as quickly as a car with AP's. Out on the track though, it's going to be very different.

For the racetrack you really need to know what they are going to be like pulling you up from 200km/h repeatedly, lap after lap, week after week, year after year.

Setting up an actual test for this would be very difficult. There's a lot of variables and it would cost a lot of money.

There are people doing this kind of testing though. Race teams. Just look at what competitive race cars are using. Most of them have to pay for their brake setups like everyone else and will obviously use what gives them the best results in a track/race environment. You will find the same brands being used again and again. AP racing, Alcon, Brembo, Project Mu etc. I can't count how many times I have seen these brands used on track cars that are winning races.

I have never seen a car win a serious race (hot laps around maccas carpark not included) using XYZ, K sport, insert chinese brand here calipers. I'm sure it may have happened or will happen in the future (whether or not the calipers used to do this are the same as the ones they actually sell to the public is a different matter) but just looking at how nearly all the teams use the higher end brands religiously is surely telling you something.

You will notice that brembo, AP, alcon etc almost never advertise. This is because their products speak for themselves. They get tested week in, week out in all forms of motorsport at race tracks all over the world and perform very well. How often do you see a V8 supercar's brakes fail? They are all using Alcons.

Completely agree. It would be expensive - but not impossible. Considering the money spent around Australia on Dyno tuning and testing - it's certainly not impossible to hack into some of that money.

Alcon is a control brake for V8 supercars so they don't have a choice on experimenting with other options.

Brembo don't need to advertise now as they've hacked into the mainstream OEM market which no doubt funds their end of year xmas bash. (Maserati, Ferrari, Porsche, Holden/GM, FPV, Nissan, Subaru, Aston Martin, Ford US etc etc). Thanks to cheap Italian labour - business is booming.

Agree that the requirements for street, club racing and serious club racing with multiple high speed laps are game changers for braking requirements. I think most people on this forum come under the spirited 'street' requirement. And it's this growing market that has the most subjectivity/hearsay than ever. Brakes are fast fulfilling the bling factor vice need factor.

I think most people use the mainstream brands because it's one less variable they can discount for trackwork. R&D, trial and error costs money and there's very little objective information out there so they're pretty well forced to go with established brands for risk mitigation rather than actual product performance reduction (similar to why I always buy Colgate toothpaste and Kraft Vegemite - although I could probably scrape buy to experiment with other brands!)

[alkuku]

this brand is amazing Baer try it

[TIR33D]

Can I just say that just because you have a particular set of brakes it don't make them the best in the world...........
_uck me I have 4 spot brembos so what.........
Funny how fiestl was shot down....... He don't blow his trumpet but others obviously have nothing better to do than play with theirs.
I don't think we hear what track multiple $2.60 stops happened at. I know my brakes work, the centre caps that dropped out in the pits attest to the heat and work performed.
And listy bought up a great point, unless your gonna spend $2000 on a set of track tyres your never gonna use them anyway. And does anyone think about how long they will last at the track?

[planetdavo]

Size does appear to be an important requirement TIR33D, whether the performance suffers or not.
In that context, the "best" performing maybe not be what the op is actually asking everyone for...

[STod.]

I honestly think a set of 4 piston APs would suit you very well. You can pick them up for about $4g brand new i think.

I have them on my GTO and they perform very well, good stoping power and havent experienced any brake fade. The callipers look good and you get 350mm discs at the front and 330mm on the back.

The GTO has done about 35,000kms and there is no lip on the rotors. But the pads have been replaced once. The only negative is that they do squeal after a few moderate stops.

[H1GHROLLR]

4 pistons ap's on my old vt use to pull up awsome , there a pretty competitive brake

[Groboz]

Can I just say that just because you have a particular set of brakes it don't make them the best in the world...........
_uck me I have 4 spot brembos so what.........
Funny how fiestl was shot down....... He don't blow his trumpet but others obviously have nothing better to do than play with theirs.
I don't think we hear what track multiple $2.60 stops happened at. I know my brakes work, the centre caps that dropped out in the pits attest to the heat and work performed.
And listy bought up a great point, unless your gonna spend $2000 on a set of track tyres your never gonna use them anyway. And does anyone think about how long they will last at the track?

I did!

It's all about compromise. I chose a slightly harder compound tyre because I wanted them to last the season and they would probably out preform the drivers abilities to get the most out of them anyway.

My brake choice (PBRs) was also a compromise but perfect for my situation. I do usually no more than 4 to 5 laps flat out and the brakes are bloody good, pushing me hard up against the seat belts every time. Been using them for a year now and just used half the pad widths on the front and no warped rotors, so I'm happy. APs and Brembos would be nice but I don't need them. The money I saved went towards the new cam etc. My car is a street car that sees the occasional track day. It's not a race car. Compromise, we all do it to one degree or another unless we're super rich, in which case we would all be on the Lambo or Ferrari forum. :)

I bet the OP didn't think he would be opening such a big can of worms! :eek:

It's been a good discussion so far, even though it's been a bit parochial at times. You put "Best" in the heading of any thread (best cam, best tyres etc) without being specific and you're going to create a shit storm.:jester:

[STod.]

I also forgot to add that about 3 months ago there were a set of the PBRs for $4,500 on ebay. I eventually got him down to $3,500. So keep a look out on the bay.

[macca_779]

I don't think we hear what track multiple $2.60 stops happened at.


Wasn't at a track, but just so you know long smooth black tops aren't very far from reach in my line of work. :)

[GHZ28]

A good read so far.......as contentious as usual when "best" is mentioned on here.

The most important thing here really is what are these brakes for, bling only, street primarily/track or track performance.

So far, on track and on the road I have used the following brakes, in order.

AP 350/330 4 piston with DS2500 pads

Harrop 343/343 4 piston with various pads including Project Mu, Bendix, Pagid and Ferodo.

Alcon current model super car brakes (real ones) 380mm with PFC01 pads.

On my ute, which did pretty well at QR in the timeattack sprint series, the APs were way more than adequate for "multiple stops from over 200k" into turn three at QR. They were and remain way more than adequate on the street.

The Harrops, were on my dedicated track cars until the middle of this year, they performed flawlessly, including making "multiple stops from over 280 km/h" on the runway at Amberley during a day of equipment testing, with Pagid RS14 pads, and similarly multiple events at QR and Lakeside. The primary pads used were RS14 and RS 4-2-1.

If you want brakes adequate for general street and track use, both the AP and Harrop 4 pot brake kits are more than adequate, given the right pads, fluid and cooling ducting, for just about any use you put them to short of out and out racing beyond 15 laps.

Mid this year I took the opportunity to upgrade the front brakes to the Alcons, my car is now a dedicated track car, and for a basically a converted street car, is approaching the upper end of the performance envelope for a NA V8, the Alcons are an investment in safety.

So IMHO, if all you want is good performance on the road and track, the kits in the $3-5k range are adequate, with the right fluid and say annual seal replacements. If you want the large diameter rotors and big piston count calipers to fulfill a desire for the image of big brakes, then go with them, but I feel that you could spend the money better in other areas.

gh

[feistl]

Funny how fiestl was shot down....... He don't blow his trumpet but others obviously have nothing better to do than play with theirs.

Thanks mate, glad someone got it. I was merely trying to provide feedback on the brake systems i had used and how i found them to be. I dont care either way, im not selling anything and it makes no difference what some random person in some random state has on his car. I was merely trying to advise the OP on what i had learned over the last 6 months (after spending a shit load of money and a lot of effort).

To the guys who say that the 4 piston setups are fine for track racing and high speed braking... That might be true to a certain extent. However when we did a track day with the AP4s and Harrop 4s, were wore through a BRAND NEW set of race pads in just under 2 hours... The fade was pretty bad and they just didnt pull up all that well.

So while they might be fine for how hard your driving, try to explain how hard your driving as well. Without trying to brag or anything, i push my car harder than most on this forum (3 hours straight at sandown running constant 1:30 laps in a 2000kg street trim car) really tests brakes, diffs, gearbox, suspension, tyres and the engine/cooling.

Back on topic though, i found my set of AP 6/4 kit with very little wear (original pads/rotors) for $4k on the streetcommodore forums. Add in some braided lines, rebuild kit and track pads and it was about $5k total. If you can wait and look around (ebay/forums), you should be able to find a decent set inside your budget.

If your not doing any track work, then as pointed out pretty much any 4 or 6 piston set will be more than enough. Its just a matter of what price you can get on which system.

Just remember though, if you got the largest harrop set you'll need 19" wheels. You'll actually find that the smaller set of harrops (which fit under 18"s) will actually be BETTER, as the smaller wheel will give more grip (meaning better braking). The largest set is really only for looks...

Also consider the replacement pad and rotor costs. The standard AP rotors are pretty soft, and wont last that long. You'll then need to buy a set of DBA 5000s which is going to push the price up.

Cheers

[Veeate]

I have only done a dozen or so track days - most of them at Oran Park. And while i am no brake expert it is interesting to see how HSV cars cope on the day.

Any standard HSV with the 4 piston setup (VE, VZ etc etc) really struggles to do 4 or 5 laps on the south circuit circuit let alone the full GP circuit. You just see what a 2 tonne car (car + driver + fuel) will do to these standard brake setups. After 4 or 5 laps the blokes can't pull the car up into turn 2 or the last corner coming onto the straight. The modern HSV's pull some serious speed down the straight lets face it so pulling them up is a big job.

Even my 6/4 piston AP setup with braided lines and the best fluid will only do 7 or 8 laps before experiencing some fade (albeit with 300+rwkw or so i am probably carrying more speed in a lot of places than a stock car). But my brakes have never given up the ghost which is maybe the big advantage over the 'smaller' setups. I once didn't do a full warm down lap after about 7 race laps and when i came into the pits the brakes were smoking like someone was having a few bongs under my car :) Maybe says my next brake mod should be cooling ducts but not sure i need to go there for the 1 or 2 track days i do a year.

If you do a track day with the blokes who have modded EVO's or STi or GTR style cars they just laugh at you if you go round mentioning how big your brakes are on your HSV. My experience is most brake systems on HSV's won't cope well with track day punishment. After 4 or 5 laps your brakes are done while the bloke in the EVO runs rings around you :bawl:

[justin_d]

Well having seen feistl going around Sandown against some ricers, the only car quicker was a GT-40, a stupidly done up Supra and maybe Rob Vickery's Lancer. Other than those two, the SS was faster than Supras, WRXs, Golfs, Lexus', Skylines and certainly quicker than the BMW Toorak Tractor that was getting around that day! Seen the whole family working on the car and doing lap after lap after lap, pitting for a change of driver and refuel, then lap after lap after lap...

[Evman]

The biggest problem with continual heavy braking is obviously heat. It's really not that difficult to set up some ducting to get some decent airflow through the disks :goodjob:

[GHZ28]

To the guys who say that the 4 piston setups are fine for track racing and high speed braking... That might be true to a certain extent. However when we did a track day with the AP4s and Harrop 4s, were wore through a BRAND NEW set of race pads in just under 2 hours... The fade was pretty bad and they just didnt pull up all that well.

So while they might be fine for how hard your driving, try to explain how hard your driving as well. Without trying to brag or anything, i push my car harder than most on this forum (3 hours straight at sandown running constant 1:30 laps in a 2000kg street trim car) really tests brakes, diffs, gearbox, suspension, tyres and the engine/cooling.


OK, guess that was aimed at me so here is my no bragging reply.

What "race pads" and in what compound were you running? That is important.
What brake fluid?
What sort of cooling ducts? (I didn't use ducting until this year)

I do not consider anything less than RS14, PFC01 spec pads as real "race pads" for cars the mass of Holdens. DS2500s are road/track day compound.

My car is about 1510kg empty, has been the fastest NA V8 in SEQ Timeattack for the past three years by a large margin. Quickest lap at QR on the National Circuit is 1:18.9 when driven by Glenn Seton, on worn out RE55s at a private test day in June this year. I run around the 1:21s normally on the National, sub 60 on the Sprint and 60.01 is the best on the Clubman, so I think that qualifies as driving it pretty hard. Engine is a 6L with around the 450 rwhp plus or minus 10 HP. Pads in the Harrop 343s were Pagid RS14 front, RS4-2-1 or Project Mu in the rear. Brake fluid was always Castrol SRF, and the dust seals on the Harrops burned off on the first track outing each time they were replaced.

The front brake rotors consistently glowed red into turn 3 at QR, and NEVER faded, not once. I never used the original Harrop rotors on the track, I always had DBA 5000s, and in 2009 changed to custom made front rotors using V8 Supercar rear rotors with hats made by PWR. However that was just because I had worn out a set of DBAs and wanted to get the best rotors I could and had the "10mm spacer" built into the hat. Never had any issue with the DBAs other than wearing them out in a season and a bit.

So, it is my opinion, and only that, that for the odd track day the 4 piston brakes, with the appropriate pads, fluid and maybe some ducting, are adequate for the vast majority of track day enthusiasts. Most racing Holdens, run in the amateur arena, would only have 4 piston brakes.

Garry

[stockergts]

OK, guess that was aimed at me so here is my no bragging reply.

What "race pads" and in what compound were you running? That is important.
What brake fluid?
What sort of cooling ducts? (I didn't use ducting until this year)

I do not consider anything less than RS14, PFC01 spec pads as real "race pads" for cars the mass of Holdens. DS2500s are road/track day compound.

My car is about 1510kg empty, has been the fastest NA V8 in SEQ Timeattack for the past three years by a large margin. Quickest lap at QR on the National Circuit is 1:18.9 when driven by Glenn Seton, on worn out RE55s at a private test day in June this year. I run around the 1:21s normally on the National, sub 60 on the Sprint and 60.01 is the best on the Clubman, so I think that qualifies as driving it pretty hard. Engine is a 6L with around the 450 rwhp plus or minus 10 HP. Pads in the Harrop 343s were Pagid RS14 front, RS4-2-1 or Project Mu in the rear. Brake fluid was always Castrol SRF, and the dust seals on the Harrops burned off on the first track outing each time they were replaced.

The front brake rotors consistently glowed red into turn 3 at QR, and NEVER faded, not once. I never used the original Harrop rotors on the track, I always had DBA 5000s, and in 2009 changed to custom made front rotors using V8 Supercar rear rotors with hats made by PWR. However that was just because I had worn out a set of DBAs and wanted to get the best rotors I could and had the "10mm spacer" built into the hat. Never had any issue with the DBAs other than wearing them out in a season and a bit.

So, it is my opinion, and only that, that for the odd track day the 4 piston brakes, with the appropriate pads, fluid and maybe some ducting, are adequate for the vast majority of track day enthusiasts. Most racing Holdens, run in the amateur arena, would only have 4 piston brakes.

Garry

couldn't have said it better myself

[surfwagon]

These just came up on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/AP-Racing-Brakes-VT-VZ-Commodore-HSV-/110603369432?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c0797bd8





__________________________________________________ ____________
my senator http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=121025&highlight=senator

[Pickles]

If they've only done 4ks & are in good shape, they'd have to be worth $4K.
Cheers, Pickles.