Falcon ditch RWD

[feistl]

Sorry guys, i know this is the millionth thread, but the evidence seems pretty strong..

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/ford-falcon-to-ditch-rearwheeldrive-20110111-19lel.html




Years of heritage could be axed with the Ford design chief all but confirming the end of the traditional rear-drive Falcon.

The rear-wheel drive Australian-designed Ford Falcon is almost certainly dead.

Instead, the next generation Falcon due after 2015 seems certain to be part of a global front and all-wheel drive family of large cars.

Ford Motor Company’s global design chief J Mays all-but confirmed the news long-dreaded by Aussie 'Blue Oval' fans at the Detroit motor show today.

“I wouldn’t be holding my breath for a rear-wheel drive Falcon,” Mays told Drive. “I think the chances are we will be all-wheel-drive.”

Mays acknowledged the news would be met with shock and dismay among Australian Ford fans, who celebrated the nameplate’s 50th anniversary in 2010.

“I understand that, but we are pretty confident we can find the right answers. It’s the same things that appeal on a rear-wheel-drive car in Australia that appeal for a rear-wheel-drive car here in the USA.”

Mays said the final decision confirming the shift away from rear-wheel-drive for Falcon would be made within six months.

He would not comment on the implications of the decision for Ford’s Australian manufacturing plant in Melbourne, nor whether V8 engines would be part of the mix.

These topics, plus the future of the popular Falcon ute, will become the centre of intense speculation now that the fundamental Falcon architecture decision seems to have been made.

The future of Falcon and which wheels it drives has been a running story for years, as traditional large rear-wheel drive car sales have dipped dramatically over more than a decade. The Falcon notched up its worst sales in its 50-year history last year.

Rear-wheel-drive has long been a strong sales pitch of the locally made Falcon and its Holden Commodore rival, perceived as superior dynamically, particularly for towing and performance models.

Questions about the Falcon has caused friction between Ford and Australian motoring media. In Detroit today, the company’s global product chief Derrick Kuzak turned his back on two Australian journalists who door-stopped him on the issue.

Minutes later Ford’s global president Alan Mulally was quizzed by Australian media before being taken away by his PR minder.

“We love the Falcon, we have nothing new to address today other than we love serving the Australian customer. We have nothing to report,” he said, before refusing to answer more questions.

“I have never met more relentless people than the Australians [media].”

The Falcon news comes just hours after Holden chairman and managing director Mike Devereux told Australian journalists in Detroit that he favoured a rear-wheel drive for Australia’s best-selling car, the Commodore, for years to come. A decision is due this year.

Commodore has advantages over Falcon because Holden is GM’s global rear-wheel drive engineering homeroom, and the platform and the car itself have both been exported.

Falcon is currently a global orphan with no export prospects. That’s an anathema for a company committed to a global product development and sales strategy it calls ‘One Ford’.

In Detroit Ford rolled out its most comprehensive ‘One Ford’ strategy yet, unveiling 10 different cars based on its Focus small car platform, including a concept compact SUV called the Vertrek that should eventually replace the ancient Escape in Australia.

Under One Ford, Falcon and the locally-built Territory medium SUV – which currently share the locally-developed “E8” architecture – would align with their US equivalents, the Taurus and Explorer, both of which are already front/all-wheel drive.

“Keep in mind we have already done this with Focus and Fiesta and we have gotten very good response,” design boss Mays said. “When we started this process (One Ford) we had many people internally saying it would not work.

“But guess what? It has. So we feel very confident we are going to be able to deliver a car that everyone around the world will be happy with.”

However, it seems Ford’s iconic sports car, the Mustang, will escape the One Ford mantra, and continue on alone as a rear-wheel-drive vehicle.

Mays is overseeing a design competition between various global Ford studios including Australia to finalise a shape for the One Ford large car.

“The new car will take some cues from the (US) Taurus,” Mays explained. “I think the Australians and Americans have an affinity for a slightly tougher looking car.

“I have always equated many of the cars we have sold in Australia to American muscle cars and I think you want a little bit of that in an Australian sedan as well.”

Mays said the move from rear to AWD platform would not affect that muscle car philosophy: “No, should we decide to do it, I think we will get it right. We are pretty cognoscente of the risks and the positive sides as well.”

The current Falcon is due for a substantial update in 2011, including a new Ecoboost turbocharged four-cylinder engine and an advanced direct injection LPG system for its staple inline six-cylinder 4.0-litre engine.

The Territory also evolves into its second generation, and will add a turbo-diesel V6 engine to its powertrain lineup.

[The-V8-Power]

I was about to post this but saw this thread instead.
If that is indeed true there will be a lot of outroar from the Ford fans out there and basically everyone who supports Australian made products that are also engineered locally.
Does this mean the base models of the 'Falcon' will be FWD and the ones at the top of the range as AWD?
Either way interesting times definately lie ahead for the local car industry right now with Holden staying RWD for the distant future and Ford Aus in between a rock and a hard place with their options now.

[hRTHSV]

It probably doesn't mean alot if the performance versions are going to be AWD, the average base model buyer doesn't care. I have spoken to car salesman who couldn't tell me over the phone if the VS Commodore I was asking about had IRS or not so the average buyer won't care.

Imagine the current supercharged FPV GT with AWD.

[Marco]

I wouldn't get too excited about AWD - remember, this is going to be a car based on the Taurus which is FWD. And that means the engine is going to be mounted transversely and ahead of the front axle line.

If they can even fit the V8 in sideways, it's going to be a hell of a lot of metal hanging out ahead of the front axle line. Hello understeer.

[steve_t]

What's gonna happen to V8SC?

[SharkBiscuit]

What's gonna happen to V8SC?

probably the same thing that happened with Camry's in NASCAR, they will have a body that resembles a road car and then a parity engineered chassis underneath, still being RWD.

[FireArc]

Oh lawd here we go again...Toby Hagon...lol

Him and Josh Dowling can be seen bathing together in their Holden swimmers and drying each other with their Holden towels.

This is far more interesting. BMW to go FWD:


BMW’s front-drive shock
JEZ SPINKS
March 18, 2010


BMW will abandon a vehicle design it attributes to better grip, traction, steering and comfort in the quest for better fuel economy and demand for smaller vehicles.

BMW yesterday confirmed it would finally follow other luxury rivals – including Mercedes-Benz and Audi – by building a front-wheel-drive small car.

BMW boss Dr Norbert Reithofer yesterday said at an annual accounts conference that new compact and sub-compact models would help boost profits and reduce the company’s fuel consumption and overall CO2 emissions.

“In the future we will launch more Mini and BMW models and variants – also in the small-car segment,” said Reithofer. “This segment is expected to grow further, and we will take advantage of this opportunity.

“We are exploring the possibility of developing a joint architecture for the front-wheel- and four-wheel-drive systems of these cars. In other words, there will be front-wheel-drive BMWs in the smaller vehicle classes in the future.”

Despite owning the Mini brand that popularised front-wheel-drive for the world, the German car maker has previously criticised front-drive vehicles for reducing grip and corrupting steering – even ruling out Audi as a genuine rival because its front-wheel-drive cars were not suited to luxury motoring.

All current BMW passenger cars are rear-wheel drive, including its smallest model the 1-Series, with one executive once stating “premium cars have rear-wheel drive because of comfort and design.”

When the BMW 1-Series arrived in 2004 BMW said its rear-drive layout was crucial, saying it “ensures improved grip and better traction under acceleration” and that it delivers “optimum grip leaving the front wheels to steer”.

The new front-wheel-drive BMW platform is understood to be capable of underpinning models ranging from 3.8 to 4.3 metres long, which at their extremes are slightly smaller than the current Mini and slightly longer than a Volkswagen Golf.

The architecture is expected to debut on the next-generation Mini due in 2014, with industry reports suggesting the platform could spawn up to 20 different models.

The second-generation 1-Series due in 2011 is likely to remain rear-wheel drive, and BMW has yet to reveal whether its new sub-compact range would be called the 0-Series.

Peugeot-Citroen (PSA) would be expected to be BMW’s preferred choice of car maker it decides to share development costs for the platform. The French car-making group already has an alliance in place to share four-cylinder engines between front-wheel-drive Peugeots and Citroens and Minis.

[flappist]

Absolute bullshit.

RWD is the ONLY reason that Falcon (and for that matter Commodore) have any market share at all in Australia.

FWD would see the Boradmeadows plant shut within a short period of time as they would have to compete head to head with Japanese reliability and build quality and Korean pricing.

And before the ford haters stop jumping for joy remember the only reason the commodores & HSV are where they are today is because of competition. If their was none then why would they spend money improving the products. If the 2016 falcon was a FWD mummy car then the 2016 SS needs only be a 200kw 3.5 litre to allow it to be a RWD V8 musclecar and still comply with the fuel economy and emission requirements.

The only reason this would ever happen would be financial and if it did happen and all of a sudeen Ford were making money here then it will happen to Commodore too.

[Ghia351]

Questions about the Falcon has caused friction between Ford and Australian motoring media. In Detroit today, the company’s global product chief Derrick Kuzak turned his back on two Australian journalists who door-stopped him on the issue.I wonder who these unlucky journo's were, lol.

[mastadd]

probably the same thing that happened with Camry's in NASCAR, they will have a body that resembles a road car and then a parity engineered chassis underneath, still being RWD.

So basically what V8SC is now?

[383hq]

Don't forget car making is a business, these guys will play hard politics to get the best business case possible from the taxpayer, erhh sorry goverment erhh sorry for the car company, that they can.
40 years ago big business chased goverments for approvals, now goverments chase big business for employment and tax income.

Ford will follow the money - they're very good at getting funding/grants/tax advantages out of australian politicians. This is just round one.

[blu ute]

Haha would love to see a fwd falcon 1 tonner. no chance of towing a tradie trailer. Half of their market would be 1 ton ute.

[v8dude78]

Just goes to show you how stupid the Americans really are :flipoff:

Australians never have and from i can tell never will want a large family sized sedan that is front wheel drive or AWD, case in point Mitsubishi 380 they are a great car but with a powerful V6 up front driving the front wheels handle like crap and are boring to drive and the magna AWD gezz didnt they sell like hot cakes :confused: and where is Mitsubishi Australia now :confused:

This sounds like a repeat of fords decision back in the 80's when they stopped making V8 falcons, it nearly shut down ford Australia permanently, wonder how long it will be before ford America has to bail out ford Australia because of its own stupid decisions.

End rant :soap:

[VYBerlinaV8]

I wouldn't get too excited about AWD - remember, this is going to be a car based on the Taurus which is FWD. And that means the engine is going to be mounted transversely and ahead of the front axle line.

If they can even fit the V8 in sideways, it's going to be a hell of a lot of metal hanging out ahead of the front axle line. Hello understeer.

Add to this the extra weight that AWD brings with it.

[VYBerlinaV8]

And before the ford haters stop jumping for joy remember the only reason the commodores & HSV are where they are today is because of competition. If their was none then why would they spend money improving the products. If the 2016 falcon was a FWD mummy car then the 2016 SS needs only be a 200kw 3.5 litre to allow it to be a RWD V8 musclecar and still comply with the fuel economy and emission requirements.



It's entirely possible that we could see cars with lower power in a few years time. This is exactly what happened during the 1970's in Australia - Holden and Ford V8s from '71/'72 were much quicker than those built '76/'77.

[steve_t]

Add to this the extra weight that AWD brings with it.

And add to that the extra driveline losses that AWD brings too. I thought they wanted to be more fuel economical :1peek:

[VL Executive]

What's gonna happen to V8SC?


probably the same thing that happened with Camry's in NASCAR, they will have a body that resembles a road car and then a parity engineered chassis underneath, still being RWD.

Well, V8 SC is going that way with the COTF project anyway, with a parity engineered / control chassis. So the V8 SC mob wont give a bugger about what happens.

If they do this ford will be dead in Australia without doubt. It will go down the same road as Mitsubishi.

[Bazz]

Better buy that RWD gas gussler now, stick it in the shed ready to bring it out again like in demolition man!! My Turbo 6L VT is headed that way!

[185iboy]

I'm so sick of this 'OneFord', 'Global Synergy' BS. Aussie cars are special because they're Aussie cars!

[VL Executive]

I'm so sick of this 'OneFord', 'Global Synergy' BS. Aussie cars are special because they're Aussie cars!

Thats true. Australian cars are truely unique. There's nothing else in the world like them.

In the end, everyone across the world will get a one size fits all car. Seems to be headed that way. :(

[flappist]

It's entirely possible that we could see cars with lower power in a few years time. This is exactly what happened during the 1970's in Australia - Holden and Ford V8s from '71/'72 were much quicker than those built '76/'77.

Only in a straight line. As soon as there were any corners they just dropped back into the distance.

[Marco]

Haha would love to see a fwd falcon 1 tonner. no chance of towing a tradie trailer. Half of their market would be 1 ton ute.

Ford probably figures that its new Ranger will have this part of the market covered, and the rest can buy an AWD Falcon ute.

[Steve-LS2]

Maybe Ford Australia should try and break bonds with FMC in the states?

Drop the Ford badge altogether and go with something different, just alter everything slightly to get around copyright and IP issues and they could keep trading, unfortunately it looks as though being connected to FMC is going to be the start fo the end....

In the end (and I'm not condoning sending manufacturing jobs OS) the only way any car maker in a country as small (demographically) as ours would be to offshore the building of the cars to South America or Africa.

[VX2VESS]

What's gonna happen to V8SC?

why ask ? nothing is the same as the road cars on them now except the shape. doesn't matter what the road cars have on them to V8SC

[steve_t]

why ask ? nothing is the same as the road cars on them now except the shape. doesn't matter what the road cars have on them to V8SC

Yeah, I guess. But at point do you draw the line? If the Falcon becomes a FWD V6 production car, does it still get to enter?

[Steve-LS2]

Car Entry Rules for 2010


DIVISION “C” – TECHNICAL RULES
C 1. GENERAL
All Cars must remain identical in all respects to the specific model from the Family of a
Vehicle on which they are based and must be constructed in accordance with The
Manufacturer Supplied CAD except for the freedoms allowed, and to the extent permitted, by
these Rules and the VSD.
In all circumstances the primary function of any component, even if all or part of its design is
free, is the overriding factor in determining it’s compliance with these Rules. Any secondary
function/s, unless specifically permitted by these Rules, are not permitted.
For clarification, in these Rules, unless it says that you can, then you cannot.
C 1.1 Technical Definition and Class
1.1.1 The requirements of this Division C apply to V8 Supercars, which are defined as largescale
Production Touring Cars comprising a specialised class of 5 litre, Australian
produced, right hand drive, four door Cars, fitted with pushrod two-valve normallyaspirated
V8 engines.1.1.2 There is only one class of Car the V8 Supercar with engines of up to 5000cc capacity
fitted to Cars of which at least 25,000 examples, meeting the definition of Family of a
Vehicle, must have been produced.
C 1.2 Vehicle / Component Approval
1.2.1 To be considered eligible for a Meeting, Cars, cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and aero
kits must be as approved by V8 Supercars and detailed in the relevant VSD..
1.2.2 All Cars must be constructed in accordance with the Manufacturer Supplied CAD and
comply with all aspects of the relevant VSD and the requirements of this Division C.
1.2.3 Any manufacturer produced or supplied non catalogue components must be readily
available for purchase by all Teams that compete using that manufacturer’s model
Car.
1.2.4 Subject to the approval of V8 Supercars, to be considered eligible for a DVS Meeting,
a Car must use a body shell that has been used in no less than six (6) VCS Meetings.
C 1.3 Amendments to the Formula
During its life the V8 Supercar formula will be subject to amendment by the Board of V8
Supercars to maintain exciting and entertaining competition.
C 1.4 Jurisdiction for Interpretation
Unless otherwise provided in these Rules, jurisdiction for the interpretation of the
requirements in Division C lies entirely with the Stewards who, in cases where a technically
complex issue arises, will refer the technical issue to the CTM who will determine the
technical issue and any determination will be binding; and any question to be determined
judicially will be determined by the judicial system as provided by these Rules.
C 1.5 Repairs
1.5.1 Any repairs or replacements must take full account of engineering integrity and safety.
1.5.2 The CTM has the right to consider the engineering integrity and safety of any
modifications carried out and to require corrective action if appropriate.
C 1.6 Responsibility for Safety
Each Competitor is responsible for all safety aspects of that Competitor’s Car/s at all times.

C 1.7 Car Models
1.7.1 While it is permitted to update a model of a Car to a later model of the same Car, it is
forbidden to back-date a model of a Car to any previous model of the same Car at
any time unless otherwise approved by V8 Supercars.
1.7.2 Any Competitor or Driver that has upgraded to a later model Car (by way of example
only from a Holden Commodore VZ to a Holden Commodore VE) for competition in
either the VCS or the DVS, must continue to use a Car of the later model at all
subsequent Meetings unless otherwise approved by V8 Supercars.
C 1.8 Model Eligibility
Only the following makes/models of Cars as detailed in the table below are eligible for
competition in each series:
Eligible models of Cars
Year / Series Ford Holden
2010
VCS BF,FG VE
DVS BF VZ ,VE
2011
VCS FG VE
DVS BF,FG VZ,VE
2012
VCS FG VE
DVS BF,FG VZ,VE
V8 Supercars reserves the right to add additional models as they are submitted for
approval by each manufacturer.
C 1.9 VSD
VSD’s are available for the Cars detailed below:
Make / Model Document Title Approved by
Holden VY, VZ, VE Vehicle Specification Document V8 SUPERCARS
Ford BA, BF,FG Vehicle Specification Document V8 SUPERCARS

[EfiJy]

I'm disappointed to read that Falcon won't be a dedicated RWD. Sure the prospect of an AWD TT V6 sounds promising but the Falcon will never be a Nissan GTR, not with the engine mounted east-west and not with over 2,000kg of weight to keep in check.

What incentive is there for Holden to get the Commodore right if it doesn't have the Falcon to benchmark against? Last time I checked, Falcon could be had with more features for less money. Sure it's no VE (I believe VE is superior for room, quality, comfort and driveability and each to their own) but the difference isn't huge.

For instance, without Falcon ute, does that mean Holden no longer need to develop the ute? That would also impact on VE's economies of scale.

It can't be good news no matter which way you look at it.

[FireArc]

I'm disappointed to read that Falcon won't be a dedicated RWD.

I think this is purely the case that the annual Detroit Motorshow is on, Drive are there and are again stirring up questions and BS to support the same BS they started the same time this year and the year before.

Its the same crew stirring this up at the same time of year based on the same Detroit Motorshow. I swear they will drive FoA into the ground like they did Mitsubishi.

In any case, we will hopefully have an answer within 6-12 months!

[mac06]

What incentive is there for Holden to get the Commodore right if it doesn't have the Falcon to benchmark against? Last time I checked, Falcon could be had with more features for less money. Sure it's no VE (I believe VE is superior for room, quality, comfort and driveability and each to their own) but the difference isn't huge.

For instance, without Falcon ute, does that mean Holden no longer need to develop the ute? That would also impact on VE's economies of scale.

It can't be good news no matter which way you look at it.

With regard to the Holden Ute it will continue. There was an article quoted in another thread that covered this as below. Holden don't only compete against Ford, although they would be the major competitor in this segment. They still need to be competitive with every newcomer, so they have to get it right.

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/rearwheeldrive-critical-to-commodore-future-20110110-19kwm.html


Devereux says it’s imperative the Commodore maintains the design and engineering flexibility that allows it to produce numerous body derivates as diverse as traditional wagons and sedans to utes and limousines.

“When you start decoding why VE [Commodore] is so successful it’s because it’s so flexible,” he says, referring to the broad model spread and singling out the ute as a unique vehicle for Australia.

“[The Australian market] looks the same as a lot of places I’ve been before but the vehicle market is demonstrably different.

“Ute is obviously pretty important to us. We wouldn’t want to walk away from something like that.”
Devereux says the new Commodore will also be future-proofed to include emerging technologies, including all-electric drive and diesel.

[Road Warrior]

Maybe Ford Australia should try and break bonds with FMC in the states?

Drop the Ford badge altogether and go with something different, just alter everything slightly to get around copyright and IP issues and they could keep trading, unfortunately it looks as though being connected to FMC is going to be the start fo the end....



Problem is FMC own Ford Australia lock, stock and barrel.

[EfiJy]

With regard to the Holden Ute it will continue. There was an article quoted in another thread that covered this as below. Holden don't only compete against Ford, although they would be the major competitor in this segment. They still need to be competitive with every newcomer, so they have to get it right.

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/rearwheeldrive-critical-to-commodore-future-20110110-19kwm.html

It's a bit hard to compete on your own long term. What the Falcon ute does is help Holden to grow the ute segment.

Imagine no Falcon ute, then Holden would be competing head on with Hilux, Navara, Triton which are clearly superior utes. Holden might have a niche product but niche products don't succeed for long. I just used the ute to support my argument.

I also disagree that Holden don't need Falcon. Once an accountant in Detroit does his sums and asks why do we need a RWD car.......... don't forget about how Holden had to compete with Falcon in order to get to where it is today (an exporter of RWD excellence within GM).

The high Aussie dollar is not doing Holden any export favours atm. And the situation doesn't look like improving as long as the US is plunging deeper into debt.

Just my outlook.

[EfiJy]

Problem is FMC own Ford Australia lock, stock and barrel.

I believe it is in fact Ford Canada that own FoA???

[Road Warrior]

I believe it is in fact Ford Canada that own FoA???

lol, no. FoA was established by the (then) Ford of Canada back in the 1920's(?) because Detroit and the US Government didn't want to deal with a "socialist" country like Australia where the head of state can be sacked and the State owns and runs everything like it did at the time. Canada being another Commonwealth country, no problemo.

Make no mistake, Detroit has had plenty of time to consolidate its ownership and has done so. Ford Australia is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford Motor Company.

[flappist]

Yeah, I guess. But at point do you draw the line? If the Falcon becomes a FWD V6 production car, does it still get to enter?

V8SC is an artificial conflict between 2 tribes much like state of origin football or the Ashes.
It only exists because of the Ford mutant vs Holden bogan rivalry.

Removing either Ford or Holden from it would be like removing QLD or NSW from state of origin or Australia or the Poms from the Ashes.

[Marco]

It's a bit hard to compete on your own long term. What the Falcon ute does is help Holden to grow the ute segment.

Imagine no Falcon ute, then Holden would be competing head on with Hilux, Navara, Triton which are clearly superior utes. Holden might have a niche product but niche products don't succeed for long. I just used the ute to support my argument.

I also disagree that Holden don't need Falcon. Once an accountant in Detroit does his sums and asks why do we need a RWD car.......... don't forget about how Holden had to compete with Falcon in order to get to where it is today (an exporter of RWD excellence within GM).

I'm not sure I get this argument. There is clearly a demand in the marketplace for a vehicle like the Falcon/Commodore ute; sales figures reflect this. (For that matter, there is clearly a demand for a product like the Falcon/Commodore; sales figures reflect this too).

I don't know what ute sales are at the moment but let's suppose it's 1000 Commodore utes a month and 1000 Falcon utes a month. So that's 2000 people per month who want to buy that type of product. And it would seem that you can make a profit selling 1000 utes a month because Holden and Ford continue to bring out new utes every few years - if it wasn't profitable they'd stop.

Are you saying that, if there is no Falcon ute, then 1000 buyers a month will disappear from that segment? That those 1000 buyers would go and buy a Hilux etc rather than move over to the Commodore ute, which is more suited to their needs than the Hilux as it's more like the Falcon ute they would normally have bought?

I reckon it's more likely that maybe 500 of those buyers would move to something else (presumably because they would never, ever buy a Holden) and the other 500 would go to the Holden ute.

To look at it another way - when Holden didn't sell the ute between 1984 and 1990, did the Falcon ute die? No.

Speaking generally, we need to remember that the Commodore hasn't just competed with the Falcon for a very long time. Anyone going out to look for a large family car these days can just as easily consider a Camry, Accord, Maxima etc, not to mention SUVs. It's not like the old days when a Camry was a size smaller - it's more than big enough for most people these days.

Being the only RWD car in its class would actually give Holden a unique selling point - one that it doesn't currently have because everything you can say about the Commodore, you can also say about the Falcon.

[Ghia351]

On a purely selfish note, if I garage the G6ET now, by 2015 daughter will be in year 7 @ an estimated $23K+ school fees so will it appreciate enough in value (the car that is) once the fwd Falcon comes out to give me a financial gain or more accurately a lower financial pain.

On a more serious note I'm over the annual will it live, die or go fwd drama's. Ford US exec's also need to learn to shut their gobs and leave the answers to come from the local heads, out of respect if nothing else. May has a pet project where several design centres including Ford Aust are submitting design proposals for a global large car. It's a stylistic competition as the mechanicals are not locked in although it wouldn't take a genius to suggest that it would make great sense to allow for FWD/RWD/AWD lhd/rhd and hybrid to cover all bases for when the final plans are locked in.

Mays is the stylist head, not product development head so he's not the final decison maker and will only have some input that will carry less weight then the local Australian proposals anyway. And bear in mind the current Taurus (5.1+m) is noticibly bigger then a Falcon externally but smaller internally, :confused:...and a great deal heavier, talk about wasteful.

Derrick Kuzak is the main man for product development and he didn't even bother responding when the same journo's tried to get some answers, at least he learnt from last year, lol. Either way by the end of this year we should know what will happen for 2015 and beyond.

[The-V8-Power]

Very good points there Marco. I would quote your post although it is a little big.
Going from what you said using sales figures from the ute sales last year our estimates weren't far off. From memory both Holden and Ford utes last year sold about 20,000-22,000. So each year people buy about 44,000 utes that are locally made.

[BadMac]

You are all overlooking, how many Falcons + variants are made/sold each year, maybe 60,000. For One Ford that number is insignificant. Even losing it totally wouldn't make much impression on the balance sheet (especially when you amortise the costs of developing the Falcon/Terri/Ute for a 60,000 per year market).

So Ford will not lose any sleep about "those pesky Aussies" and there locally developed Falcon. Hell most of the Australian public (read non enthusiast market) wouldn't even care, so would buy the World Car. That further reduces the impact to maybe 10,000-20,000 units per year (FPV, and Tradies would notice!).

[EfiJy]

I'm not sure I get this argument. There is clearly a demand in the marketplace for a vehicle like the Falcon/Commodore ute; sales figures reflect this. (For that matter, there is clearly a demand for a product like the Falcon/Commodore; sales figures reflect this too).

I don't know what ute sales are at the moment but let's suppose it's 1000 Commodore utes a month and 1000 Falcon utes a month. So that's 2000 people per month who want to buy that type of product. And it would seem that you can make a profit selling 1000 utes a month because Holden and Ford continue to bring out new utes every few years - if it wasn't profitable they'd stop.

Are you saying that, if there is no Falcon ute, then 1000 buyers a month will disappear from that segment? That those 1000 buyers would go and buy a Hilux etc rather than move over to the Commodore ute, which is more suited to their needs than the Hilux as it's more like the Falcon ute they would normally have bought?

I reckon it's more likely that maybe 500 of those buyers would move to something else (presumably because they would never, ever buy a Holden) and the other 500 would go to the Holden ute.

To look at it another way - when Holden didn't sell the ute between 1984 and 1990, did the Falcon ute die? No.

Speaking generally, we need to remember that the Commodore hasn't just competed with the Falcon for a very long time. Anyone going out to look for a large family car these days can just as easily consider a Camry, Accord, Maxima etc, not to mention SUVs. It's not like the old days when a Camry was a size smaller - it's more than big enough for most people these days.

Being the only RWD car in its class would actually give Holden a unique selling point - one that it doesn't currently have because everything you can say about the Commodore, you can also say about the Falcon.

I'm saying that there is no incentive for Holden to keep developing the ute to it's full potential if Holden have no direct competition.

You you remember what the total ute sales were when the VS and EL were doing battle? A mere 600/month, that's all. The EL was basically an XD ute and Holden had only just re-entered the ute market at the time with the VR/VS. If it weren't for the new platform VT/AU utes which created a new styling niche for the tradie, we probably wouldn't have local utes by now.

Take the once popular Falcon wagon. It too suffered from neglect when Ford decided to direct development money to its Territory. And Territory has also suffered years of neglect and sales aren't exactly setting the world alight.

Neglect is key. Your argument is true only in an ideal world. Nothing ever remains constant. If the Holden ute has to battle the imported utes, it either retains its stellar reputation if Holden continue investing in it or develops a stigma as being the one and only true bogan's ute.

We've seen how little incentive there was for Holden to give VE2 a serious upgrade with an entirely new face/interior. OK, part of the problem was the lack of funds at Fisherman's Bend but continuing not to dedicate enough funds to its programs will eventually kill that product.

Just my 2c and apply to the whole VE range. There is nothing to stop GM from exporting a Zeta car to Australia or worse still a FWD large car as a cheaper alternative. In other words, it's reasonable to look at the scenario where only Holden builds 60,000 cars anually and ask why does Holden need a rear wheel drive platform with unfavourable economies of scale when the rest of the world except expensive German marques only offer FWD or AWD derivatives? Having Falcon around would make the reasons far more justifiable for Holden's cause.

That's all I'm saying (sorry if it's a bit long winded).

[EfiJy]

Mays is the stylist head, not product development head so he's not the final decison maker and will only have some input that will carry less weight then the local Australian proposals anyway. And bear in mind the current Taurus (5.1+m) is noticibly bigger then a Falcon externally but smaller internally, :confused:...and a great deal heavier, talk about wasteful.



While that may be so, the styling of the car has a big bearing in packaging and engineering limitations. I remember reading how the Holden engineering chief and Holden's lead designer were at odds over some of VE's design aspects.

The engineer wanted the stylist to alter his design so that he didn't have to find a way to sqeeze the engine further back but the designer didn't budge. Engineering had a defined real estate in which to work in.

By the same token, there is a big difference in designing and engineering a Falcon for an inline 6 as opposed to a V6. The V6 offers substantial packaging advantages by virtue of it's more compact design and more contemporary proportions.

[planetdavo]

The pressure keeps coming Ford's way because their ignorant US bosses preferred to keep selling their ancient POS in the US and middle east rather than accept that, shock horror, something from that little island down south could be a much better product. Likely auto union pressure too, but GM worked through it, and sent GTO/G8 over, plus the upcoming police cars/ chev sedans/ utes in the next year or two.
Ford? Still nothing. Unless Ford US give then some exports, the obvious HAS to happen eventually. It's just a matter of whether it's built off the (currently Volvo chassis'd) FWD Tauras, or it shares RWD Mustang dna.
Ford fans can only hope it's the second option that gets the vote.

[steve_t]

It was interesting watching an old Top Gear the other day and Clarkson revealed that the vehicle sold in highest numbers worldwide was in fact.... the Ford F-150! And that it is basically only sold in North America!! The worst thing was that because it is classed as a truck and not a car, it doesn't have to meet safety requirements for cars and it's basically crap. I'd have definitely thought it would have been a Toyota Corolla or something like that. So yeah, the Falcon probably is just a drop in the bucket for Ford on a global scale.

[EfiJy]

The pressure keeps coming Ford's way because their ignorant US bosses preferred to keep selling their ancient POS in the US and middle east rather than accept that, shock horror, something from that little island down south could be a much better product. Likely auto union pressure too, but GM worked through it, and sent GTO/G8 over, plus the upcoming police cars/ chev sedans/ utes in the next year or two.
Ford? Still nothing. Unless Ford US give then some exports, the obvious HAS to happen eventually. It's just a matter of whether it's built off the (currently Volvo chassis'd) FWD Tauras, or it shares RWD Mustang dna.
Ford fans can only hope it's the second option that gets the vote.

Holden were riding a wave of success with VT which opened the door for Middle East exports. If it weren't for the leadership of P Hanenberger and the support in the US of Lutz, who knows where Holden would be today?

[planetdavo]

Holden were riding a wave of success with VT which opened the door for Middle East exports. If it weren't for the leadership of P Hanenberger and the support in the US of Lutz, who knows where Holden would be today?

Who knows, as one can only work off what they are presented. An equally good result may have occured, because VT development started in the very early 90's, and GTO went to the US mostly because of Bob Lutz as you say, but Monaro was approved by a non "car guy" boss, so there are many others involved in Holden's better current situation than just Hanenberger.

[v8dude78]

You are all overlooking, how many Falcons + variants are made/sold each year, maybe 60,000. For One Ford that number is insignificant. Even losing it totally wouldn't make much impression on the balance sheet (especially when you amortise the costs of developing the Falcon/Terri/Ute for a 60,000 per year market).

So Ford will not lose any sleep about "those pesky Aussies" and there locally developed Falcon. Hell most of the Australian public (read non enthusiast market) wouldn't even care, so would buy the World Car. That further reduces the impact to maybe 10,000-20,000 units per year (FPV, and Tradies would notice!).

Kinda of agree, but i think the australian public might be a bit peed off in the fact that their hard earned AUSTRALIAN dollar will be going overseas when they buy a POS FWD American designed falcon

[VH-COM]

Likely auto union pressure too, but GM worked through it, and sent GTO/G8 over, plus the upcoming police cars/ chev sedans/ utes in the next year or two.


US auto workers union I understand owns about 16% of GM so yeah I imagine they would make it a bit more tough for Falcon exports to USA than for commodore variants.

[Irish]

Kinda of agree, but i think the australian public might be a bit peed off in the fact that their hard earned AUSTRALIAN dollar will be going overseas when they buy a POS FWD American designed falcon

The same way they care about where their dollars go now? Last I saw the only market decreasing in sales is the locally made one.

[v8dude78]

The same way they care about where their dollars go now? Last I saw the only market decreasing in sales is the locally made one.

Unfortunately true :rolleyes:

[EgoFG]

You are all overlooking, how many Falcons + variants are made/sold each year, maybe 60,000. For One Ford that number is insignificant. Even losing it totally wouldn't make much impression on the balance sheet (especially when you amortise the costs of developing the Falcon/Terri/Ute for a 60,000 per year market).

So Ford will not lose any sleep about "those pesky Aussies" and there locally developed Falcon. Hell most of the Australian public (read non enthusiast market) wouldn't even care, so would buy the World Car. That further reduces the impact to maybe 10,000-20,000 units per year (FPV, and Tradies would notice!).

Whilst I agree in part, and have very little respect for American's abilities to run US companies internationally ...
The Falcon platform is the biggest seller for Ford in Australia, if it does not appeal to us Pesky RCs (Aussies) then FoA is doomed to niche at best.


Isn't it funny that in their homeland GM is the one struggling most to continue in existence, but here Ford often seems like a lost cause.

[Ghia351]

Another pice of goss, May is in Australia in Feb to look at Ford Aust's current new plans for Falcon and Territory. And it would seem the 2014 (on sale 2013) 50th anniversary Mustang will finally get a version of control blade IRS, (it was started and canned a few years ago) ....

[Ghia351]

The pressure keeps coming Ford's way because their ignorant US bosses preferred to keep selling their ancient POS in the US and middle east rather than accept that, shock horror, something from that little island down south could be a much better product. Likely auto union pressure too, but GM worked through it, and sent GTO/G8 over, plus the upcoming police cars/ chev sedans/ utes in the next year or two.
Ford? Still nothing. Unless Ford US give then some exports, the obvious HAS to happen eventually. It's just a matter of whether it's built off the (currently Volvo chassis'd) FWD Tauras, or it shares RWD Mustang dna.
Ford fans can only hope it's the second option that gets the vote.You have to also remember that GM canned it's large RWD cars which was the ONLY reason Holen were able to take over exports to the Mid-east...no other internal family vehicle in the stable to compete with Commodore and Statesman. Funnily enough this also allowed Ford US to dominate the US Police vehicle market using the dinosaur Panther based cars which only boosted profits holding back any need for further development as long as it kept selling and raking in the cash.

[Marco]

You are all overlooking, how many Falcons + variants are made/sold each year, maybe 60,000. For One Ford that number is insignificant. Even losing it totally wouldn't make much impression on the balance sheet (especially when you amortise the costs of developing the Falcon/Terri/Ute for a 60,000 per year market).

And that's the problem in a nutshell. Spending $1bn to design a new version of a car that sells 60,000 units a year is nuts - it's a niche product in global terms. Far better for Ford to spend say $250m modifying the Taurus or Mondeo to turn it into the awesome new Falcamry even if that means they only sell 40,000 a year in future.

Not that Holden is doing much better - spending $1bn to sell 80,000 a year isn't too crash hot either, but this is where the export programs and stuff like the Camaro helps to pay the development bill.


I'm saying that there is no incentive for Holden to keep developing the ute to it's full potential if Holden have no direct competition.

Yeah, and I guess I can see your point there (another example is what happened when there was no Holden ute - Ford decided not to bother designing an EA ute).

You would hope that ongoing development of the Commodore flows through to the Ute (a rising tide lifts all boats, to use a cliche).

Other than the Falcon ute, where is the Commodore ute's competition - is it the 'sporty' versions of the Japanese utes? Or is the ute, given that most of them seem to be SV6/SS rather than base models these days, actually an alternative to a $40k hot hatch or sports sedan? I dunno. Just trying to work out where the market actually is.


By the same token, there is a big difference in designing and engineering a Falcon for an inline 6 as opposed to a V6. The V6 offers substantial packaging advantages by virtue of it's more compact design and more contemporary proportions.

The transverse V6, on the other hand, allows you the styling joys of a high bonnet line and enormous front overhang for that awkwardly-unbalanced big nose look....check out a Peugeot 407 for a wonderful example of this :)

[planetdavo]

You have to also remember that GM canned it's large RWD cars which was the ONLY reason Holen were able to take over exports to the Mid-east...no other internal family vehicle in the stable to compete with Commodore and Statesman. Funnily enough this also allowed Ford US to dominate the US Police vehicle market using the dinosaur Panther based cars which only boosted profits holding back any need for further development as long as it kept selling and raking in the cash.

Quite probably true, but then you factor in VT being developed from the start as a US Buick model (which of course never ended up happening), and you realise that companies can only take advantage of opportunities available. Being allowed to develop it as a left hand drive Buick then allowed it to be exported to left hand drive markets like the middle east.
The big problem for Ford Aus is that head office gave them ZERO export opportunities after Capri.

[planetdavo]

The transverse V6, on the other hand, allows you the styling joys of a high bonnet line and enormous front overhang for that awkwardly-unbalanced big nose look....check out a Peugeot 407 for a wonderful example of this :)

Those things must have the best part of one metre of front overhang...:eek::confused::spew:

[Ghia351]

Quite probably true, but then you factor in VT being developed from the start as a US Buick model (which of course never ended up happening), and you realise that companies can only take advantage of opportunities available. Being allowed to develop it as a left hand drive Buick then allowed it to be exported to left hand drive markets like the middle east.
The big problem for Ford Aus is that head office gave them ZERO export opportunities after Capri.That's right, what caused the Buick program to be cancelled. Stylistically that design requirement really paid off for Holden here as the bigger, sporty look of VT compared to the deliberate attempt to shrink the look of the Falc :doh:.....well let's not go there..

[VYBerlinaV8]

The thing that surpised me in the US was just how badly their standard vehicles drove. I had a Chev Impala and a Dodge Journey when I was there in September. The Impala was garbage compared with a base model Commodore/Falcon, and the Dodge was garbage compared with a Tarago.

It could be a cultural thing. I deal with yanks occasionally through work, and if there's one thing they hate, it's being told how something should be done. Many of them take it quite personally, even when it's just some minor professional thing.

[VH-COM]

And now theres this - http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/rearwheeldrive-critical-to-commodore-future-20110110-19kwm.html
What do we believe ?


Ford is yet to confirm the future direction of its Falcon large car, with comments by senior executives last year hinting the rear-drive heritage could be replaced by front-wheel-drive to fall into line with other international vehicles as part of the One Ford policy that designs and engineers cars for global markets.

More recently, Ford president Alan Mulally said the Falcon sits among other iconic Fords for which rear-wheel-drive makes “a lot of sense”.

[EgoFG]

And now theres this - http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/rearwheeldrive-critical-to-commodore-future-20110110-19kwm.html
What do we believe ?

This does not contradict May's statement (in context of the words he said, and the role he has), but it does work against the early articles based on May's comment.

Honestly Aussie Journos can be a little bold with stating their own feelings and conclusions as fact.

As I have stated previously Ford need to be very careful as to their future directions or they will loose all Aussie supporters, and I do worry that they naively feel that the Taurus could be modified to meet the Aussie needs - but as yet the decision is not made - they may prove smart yet and not concede the Falcon to a Magna/380-like fate.

[Steve-LS2]

For FoA's sake I hope they make them look better than this Camry/300C lovechild.... :spew:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcEH1rLcK8qAo6arHZMEqVfeYHp1Dy9 TT0JNdbYrMVJpO889UN

[mmciau]

We Aussies have been giving the US boys hell on this thread

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f37/confirmed-rwd-ford-falcon-dead-99244/

Mike

[v8dude78]

Could this be the new falcon, also check out where the side badges are on the guard very similar to where the current falcon wears em.

YouTube - 2013 Ford Taurus and Taurus SHO at the 2011 New York Auto Show

[rodp]

I don't mind the SHO.

[Bobman]

Could this be the new falcon, also check out where the side badges are on the guard very similar to where the current falcon wears em.

Lol. They're both Fords, of course there will be some similarities just as there are between the Commodore and some of General's products over in the USA.

The side badges are only on the Falcon to cover the hole where the indicator is on the lower spec models.

[Bobman]

The EL was basically an XD ute and Holden had only just re-entered the ute market at the time with the VR/VS. If it weren't for the new platform VT/AU utes which created a new styling niche for the tradie, we probably wouldn't have local utes by now.

Just a slight correction. The 'VG' was the model that put Holden back into the ute market, around 1990.

'XH' utes (based on EF/EL). Ford also had the XH panel van which was fairly popular (especially with tradies & police). That was gone by mid 1999.

[Xjas]

“The new car will take some cues from the (US) Taurus,” Mays explained. “I think the Australians and Americans have an affinity for a slightly tougher looking car.


Yeah, cause the Taurus sold so well last time they tried to flog them out here.

[Lionking]

Yeah, cause the Taurus sold so well last time they tried to flog them out here.

This is a very different beast to the cockroach of the past.

[Wozz]

The same way they care about where their dollars go now? Last I saw the only market decreasing in sales is the locally made one.

Too true bud

[SUZUKI MALISHA]

well we have rebadges kias and whatever so who really cares if the next falcon is a taurus (even with its own falcon shell on their chasis). The small holdens sell well here simply cus of the badge so aslong as they dont call it Tuarus here then itl be ok id imagine. being FWD is another whole world of hurt tho lol