LPG Vapour Injection Installation

[bidzr]

Hey everyone, I'm looking for some info on the installation side of the lpg vapour injection systems. I'm thinking about buying a second hand kit but I have been informed that installers do not particularly like installing second hand systems, is this corect? Also do you know of any installers that are reasonably priced around melbourne, preferably south east that would be happy to install a second hand system? Any particular brands I should be staying away from? Any info you can give me would be great! Cheers

[etrocket]

with the rebat might be worth getting new (obviously depends on how much 2nd hand systems sell for)

[-Jay-]

theres no way id get a 2nd hand kit, buy new get a warrantie

[daskip]

theres no way id get a 2nd hand kit, buy new get a warrantie

considering kits carry a 5 year parts warranty ( well at least mine does ) from elko in melbourne, so if i sold my kit to somebody i could provide the original receipt for install and the warranty would still be valid as long as it was reinstalled by a qualified / licensed lpg installer.

nothing wrong with a second hand kit the only thing that cant be used is the gas line from the tank to the mixer/converters, these are around $100-$150 to have a new one installed anyway so not a big outlay.

plus the rebate is based on VIN number not system serial numbers so you buy a second hand kit on the cheap for say $1000 and it costs you $1000 for install and you claim the $1750 rebate you come out with everything costing you $250 seems like a good deal to me!

[O.N.]

liquid injection is so much better than the vapour systems, you make more hp very similar fuel economy.

vapour systems inject as a vapour so there is a power loss and it will use more fuel in order to account for the loss of fuel being in a vapour form.

as a liquid it will inject right into the intake port of each port on your heads, in this space between injector and cylinder the liquid vapourises and drops intake temps as the liquid is well below freezing in temps giving you a cooler intake charge and being 108-110 octane you get a better cleaner burn.
most systems you can expect a 4-5% increase in rwhp.

fuel consumption with liquid will be almost the same it can swing either way less L per 100 or more L per 100 depending on how you tune it and how well it is set up.

i was getting roughly 14L per 100 on 98 octane and roughly 15-16L per 100km
i also had a 10rwkw gain.

[J_VZUTE]

I'd def go with a brand new system for warranty reasons.. you never know what can go wrong then at least your covered if anything was to go wrong..

[bidzr]

Thanks for all replies. I would love to go down the path of liquid injection but I do not have the funds to do this at the moment I'd still b up for over $3000.

I didnt think people were losing power going with vapour injection? Has anyone got a before and after dyno sheet? How much are we looking at for a new vapour injection system these days?

Now I'm slightly worried about warrenty, would the parts and service still be covered by the 5 year warrenty even though they are second hand and have been installed on more than one car?

[O.N.]

liquid injection is about 800-1500 more than vapour, considering it is far better it is money well spent.

[daskip]

vapour system is around $4000-$4500 dependant on system type etc

warranty will be fine with a second hand system as long as an authoristed lpg fitter has been used to install the system.

new replacement injector blocks if they were out of warranty would be around the $450 mark each but these are pretty robust and rarely fail

in the 2 years ive had my system installed its been pretty flawless besides a pressure valve being faulty ($10 part) and once replaced never saw the problem again

[ratter]

A lot of warranties are for the original owner of the kit or the original car it is fitted to.

Vapour injected systems will still suffer from some power loss compared to petrol with the same tune, custom tuning a for a gas tune will get some of the power back, but if optimized for gas will have to much spark for petrol.

[pah]

Hi BIDZR,

I'd be looking for an LPG liquid injection system. I think they offer superior power and economy. Here's a quote from a supplier:

The difference between JTG liquid injection and vapour injection systems - JTG system injects the LPG into the inlet manifold as a liquid. When the liquid enters the inlet manifold it vaporizes. The effect of vapourizing dramatically cools the incoming air stream to provide a more dense charge of air and fuel entering the combustion chamber. ( similar to intercooling on turbocharged cars ). The benefit is a more efficient combustion providing more power and as a result lowering fuel consumption.

http://www.australianlpgwarehouse.com.au/Products/Systems/JTG-Liquid-Injection.aspx

Here's another crowd:

http://www.lpgli.com/features.html

I am tempted to say: You will enjoy these benefits of liquid injection long after you've forgotten about the purchase price. But I have not done my homework. I don't know how much more the liquid injection kit costs.

Somebody jump in here please! I am right in saying that HSV uses the liquid injection system?




PAH

[O.N.]

Somebody jump in here please! I am right in saying that HSV uses the liquid injection system?


Yep the new HSV have the option to have LPG liquid injection.

my 5.7L had it like i said before i made 10rwkw more through the entire rev range.

here is my dyno the blue line is 98 octane and the red line is LPG.
260.3KW/348.9HP on LPG and 250KW/335.1HP on petrol
So LPG liquid injection makes 10.3KW/13.8HP more than petrol.

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachments/the-world-of-sports/549d1267437662-my-new-toy-gto-dyno002.jpg

[bidzr]

If I did buy a second hand system whether it be vapour or liquid injection I would definitely still want the warranty for original parts so looks like I will have to do some more investigation. I'd be hoping I could find an installer who is willing to give me a warranty for installation on second hand parts.

I'm impressed by the liquid injection figures and will do some calculations as to whether its worth me going down this road. I dont do a lot of driving only 15000 kms per year so it might take me a while to get my money back. Thanks again

[O.N.]

I dont do a lot of driving only 15000 kms per year so it might take me a while to get my money back. Thanks again

Here is a roughy on how to work out how long it takes to get it back.

System cost $5400
rebate $1750
total cost after rebate $3650

Cost of PULP 98 $1.52.9
Cost of LPG $0.67.9

Petrol L per 100km =14.5L
LPG L per 100km =16L

Petrol cost to travel 100km =$22.17
LPG cost to travel 100km =$10.86
total saving per 100km =$11.31

How long will it take to recover $3650 when only saving $11.31 per 100km

$3650 /
$11.31
=322.7
=32,272km

if traveling 15,000km per year it will take 2 years IF Petrol price stay exactly where they are, the more likely outcome will be petrol will go up LPG should be more steady and you should reach the saving a lot sooner. After you travel the 32,000km you are putting money back in your pocket as you have recovered the cost of the installation.
Further to this if you intend on keeping the car its a great mod its cheaper and makes more power.

[-Jay-]

i worked out it took me 6 months to break even, $30 per 400kms in my VY clubby vapor injected system. its been great and ive had it for over 9 months so far!!!! never looked back!! power is the same only difference is that the car runs smoother.

[amckiwi]

O.N. good figures but

The rebate is now $1,500 until 30 June 2011 (I thought it was only $1,200 now so will be an extra $300 in the pocket yipee)

It will also take longer than that because you have not factored in the interest value of the up front spend.

If you have the cash
ie a rough calculation $5,400 - $1500 = $3,900 at 5% for a year is a further $195 cost less tax so about $100 (it will be less than this as you recover some of your investment during the year)
If you have to borrow
ie a rough calculation $5,400 - $1500 = $3,900 at 10% for a year is a further $390 (it will be less than this as you repay some of your loan during the year)

Stu

[73LJWhiteSL]

Thanks for the figures there. So the Liquid is definately worth the extra cash over the vapour injection?

I purchased a VX SS late last year and am planning to stick it on gas with the money i got from selling the previous car (~$5,000) but was hoping to have a little left over to put on the loan.

Steve

[O.N.]

O.N. good figures but

The rebate is now $1,500 until 30 June 2011 (I thought it was only $1,200 now so will be an extra $300 in the pocket yipee)

It will also take longer than that because you have not factored in the interest value of the up front spend.

If you have the cash
ie a rough calculation $5,400 - $1500 = $3,900 at 5% for a year is a further $195 cost less tax so about $100 (it will be less than this as you recover some of your investment during the year)
If you have to borrow
ie a rough calculation $5,400 - $1500 = $3,900 at 10% for a year is a further $390 (it will be less than this as you repay some of your loan during the year)

Stu


yeah but now you are talking about borrowing money or interest you could possibly earn on that money.
If you want the Liquid get it, its far better than vapour and its one of the only mods you can do that makes more power and saves you money in the long run.
You can even compare it to e85 if you like and also factor in what e85 will do to your rubber fuel lines and gaskets in the long run.
LPG is a far better fuel.

[bidzr]

O.N - Thanks for the figures. At least now I have a rough idea on how long it will take before I start saving money, not as long as I thought.

[bidzr]

i worked out it took me 6 months to break even, $30 per 400kms in my VY clubby vapor injected system. its been great and ive had it for over 9 months so far!!!! never looked back!! power is the same only difference is that the car runs smoother.

Didnt notice any power loss as mentioned above from the vapour system? If you dont mind me asking how much did the system set you back?

[O.N.]

Didnt notice any power loss as mentioned above from the vapour system? If you dont mind me asking how much did the system set you back?

unless he has a petrol vs LPG dyno sheet him saying the power is the same is according to his personal opinion, vapour systems are known for make you make less power, its pretty simply physics to under stand how the vapour system works.

[daskip]

my vapour system doesnt seem like it has any power loss over petrol

[MTC]

I've got Vapour Injection on our Daily VY SS Wgn I had APS/Auto gas injection fit it three years ago. APS have also Mafless tuned it have done around 80000klms so far since fitted no problems & cant feel any power differance between petrol & LPG

[O.N.]

my vapour system doesnt seem like it has any power loss over petrol


I've got Vapour Injection on our Daily VY SS Wgn I had APS/Auto gas injection fit it three years ago. APS have also Mafless tuned it have done around 80000klms so far since fitted no problems & cant feel any power differance between petrol & LPG

doesn't seem like it loses power!
doesn't feel like it loses power!

so you dont lose power so there was no need for the LPI and it's efficiency!

again show me a dyno graph, show me fuel consumption.
vapour systems are out dated and well into the stone age of how far LPG systems have come.

[LuisS]

Guys ,don't confuse the old style venturi vapor system with vapor injection ;)

We've done several VE 6lt on Eurogas ( vapor injection ) and they almost matched the petrol power figures..
If I get a chance tomorrow I'll see if I can find a dyno sheet :)

[O.N.]

Guys ,don't confuse the old style venturi vapor system with vapor injection....

We've done several VE 6lt on Eurogas ( vapor injection ) and they almost matched the petrol power figures..
If I get a chance tomorrow I'll see if I can find a dyno sheet :)

So again vapour injection and the even older venturi systems dont make the power 98 octane will.

Luis in your opinion bang for buck which is best for performance, cost, efficiency

[MTC]

That is what My SS has the Eurogas Sequential Vapour Injection system. but I dont have a Dyno sheet showing the petrol run & LPG runs so cant post one up sorry O.N.

[O.N.]

That is what My SS has the Eurogas Sequential Vapour Injection system. but I dont have a Dyno sheet showing the petrol run & LPG runs so cant post one up sorry O.N.

ok sure just tell me the figures and if there were any drop offs during the rev range, ie system losing fuel pressure not keeping up
and whats your fuel usage like in comparison.
how much do the vapour systems cost these days.

[LuisS]

So again vapour injection and the even older venturi systems dont make the power 98 octane will.

Luis in your opinion bang for buck which is best for performance, cost, efficiency

Bang for buck , Eurogas - there is a new regulator available which allows us to run to the redline on LPG (L98 ) without the need to "switch back" like so many others do.

Performance , no brainer :) JTG - tuned one today and it made almost 20 rwkw more than petrol....mind you , I haven't tried using the ethanol tables in EFI live with Eurogas yet , could be interesting.

Obviously liquid is more efficient .

[O.N.]

How much do you charge to fit an LSI with a JTG i paid $5400 about a year ago now.

[bidzr]

APS - Do you have a figure of how much power you lose with vapour injection? I obviously dont want to lose a massive amount of power but I am not too fussed if its minor. Also do you have a price comparision on the vapour and liquid injection systems installed? Cheers

[LuisS]

APS - Do you have a figure of how much power you lose with vapour injection? I obviously dont want to lose a massive amount of power but I am not too fussed if its minor. Also do you have a price comparision on the vapour and liquid injection systems installed? Cheers

Found it -

This is a VE wagon we tested for ALPGW - It was a totally stock AFM L76 , fitted with the Eurogas vapor system

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/641/velpgeurogas1.jpg

[daskip]

it was around a 2kw difference which in reality i highly doubt ur going to say " i felt that petrol make 2kw extra"

[73LJWhiteSL]

For those of you interested in a comparison, I had my 02 VX SS fitted with liquid injection last month, and had it on the dyno a few weeks ago. 201rwkw on PULP (98) and 212rwkw on Liquid LPG injection. Car has a cat back exhaust (2 1/2") with a performance muffler.

Steve

[O.N.]

For those of you interested in a comparison, I had my 02 VX SS fitted with liquid injection last month, and had it on the dyno a few weeks ago. 201rwkw on PULP (98) and 212rwkw on Liquid LPG injection. Car has a cat back exhaust (2 1/2") with a performance muffler.

Steve

i wonder if you make a % increase or 10-12rwkw cause i made 10rwkw too on my 5.7L was 250rwkw on 98 octane and 260rwkw on Liquid LPG injection.

[etrocket]

according to your results around 5% - but im sure someone could clarify

[O.N.]

according to your results around 5% - but im sure someone could clarify

yeah but im wondering on my new engine making 446rwkw if i add LPG liquid injection will that be worth 10rwkw or 5%=22.3rwkw

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys,

Let's not forget that there are now three Liquid Injection systems on the market.

Of the three, Australian LPG Warehouse' ICOM JTG system was the first system and was introduced in late 2008. It is the simplest system, relying on mechanically calibrated injectors to match injector flow to petrol injection signal with no requirement for a secondary ECU. It is also the most expensive by a significant margin but is proven in high-performance applications.

The second system is Orbital's LLI system, based on the Vialle LPI system that has been commerically available in Europe for over a decade. It was introduced in mid-2009 and is about $1000 cheaper than the JTG system. This is the system that HSV are using with their LPI variants and uses parts with outstanding build quality.

The third and newest system is Alternative Fuel Innovations' LiquaJet system. Priced similarly to Orbital's offering, the AFI system offers the best ownership experience with a touchscreen fuel guage / selection switch and an Australian-made (APA) cylinder system. It has just been introduced into the market and so far the results are fantastic.

All three systems offer one major advantage over gas-phase injection systems: the reduction of service requirements associated with software or hardware calibration. Once each system has been installed and calibrated, the system never requires recalibration, much like your typical petrol system. The JTG system is mechanically calibrated whereas the Orbital and AFI systems rely on a secondary ECU. The AFI ECU can store individual ignition maps and tunes for multiple fuels, so you can run a petrol tune for when the engine runs on petrol and an LPG tune for when the engine runs on gas. The AFI system also offers the quickest purge times (i.e. less petrol running needed after startup and forced LPG startup possible) and the most sophisticated tuning capabilities.

All three systems come as highly recommended over any gas-phase injection system.

[gavlotic]

Hey PoweredbyCNG,

I tried to get more info regarding the AFI system about a month ago with no success from lpgas1 and they referred me to auto gas connection in carrum downs. They said the system wasn't available yet? Should I contact them again? Or is there another shop in Melbourne i should contact for more info?

Thanks.

Gav

[feistl]

The AFI system also offers the quickest purge times (i.e. less petrol running needed after startup and forced LPG startup possible) and the most sophisticated tuning capabilities.

Very interesting, does this mean you could get away without using ANY petrol?

Ive been wanting to convert for a while but wanted to remove the petrol tank/spare wheel well and fit 2 larger tanks. Having to keep petrol for startup is a pain...

Also, what sort of issues would you potentially have force starting on LPG? The car hardly gets driven and is always stored in a garage, so if its just longer start times i really dont mind.

Cheers

[-Jay-]

Didnt notice any power loss as mentioned above from the vapour system? If you dont mind me asking how much did the system set you back?


Supply and Install was $4000 from ezygas
i got $2k back on rebate

recently filled up 80L @ 57.5c cost me roughly $45 and this will last me 450kms
on a VY2 Clubsport where PULP used to cost me ~$110 for 350kms almost 3 times the amount of LPG.

havnt looked back, my next car will have injected LPG!! f,,k paying more for a fuel which does the same job and that is also bad to the environment.

[O.N.]

have you got bigger fuel pumps and injectors yet to keep up with cars that are making over 450rwkw?

[PoweredByCNG]

Very interesting, does this mean you could get away without using ANY petrol?

Most likely. You will have to retain the petrol ECU at the least though.startup is a pain...


Also, what sort of issues would you potentially have force starting on LPG? The car hardly gets driven and is always stored in a garage, so if its just longer start times i really dont mind.

Longer starting times is the main and possibly only issue. If you have a look on YouTube, there are several videos of the LiquaJet video in operation.

[O.N.]

have you got bigger fuel pumps and injectors yet to keep up with cars that are making over 450rwkw?

and the answer to my question too please??

[Statowh]

shit looks like the statesman is staying on the ulp with the price of converting :(