2011 Formula 1

[black_friday]

If you were getting consistently put into the floor by your team mate - where it matters - on the podium - you wouldnt be walking around whistling Dixie either so its no wonder Webber isnt the smilie face poster boy.

As far as Webber leaving to go to a losing team being fine so he doesnt have to compete and winning isnt expected of him......thats simply piss weak and un-Australian. What he needs to do is get out there and kick some Vettel butt, not lay down and take it or run away and hide. Kick it, dont kiss it. If he can't then sports other than F1 beckon :cool:

Im a big fan of Marks, but its safe to say he isnt as fast as Vettel, but its also pretty obvious he is the number 2 driver at Red Bull. A move to Renault would make him the number 1 driver and preference at pit stops etc as mentioned earlier. I dont know if it would be a wise move myself, it would take a lot to make me step out of the fastest car on the grid and back into the midfield where he spent most of his career.

Besides, Vettel and Hamilton wouldnt work as teammates, they would have more run ins with each other than the competition. Anyone remember Hamilton and Alonso? Hamilton has been with Mercedes since he was a kid anyway, I doubt he would leave

[jboy21]

Ricciardo gets his formula one chance (http://www.sportsnewsfirst.com.au/articles/2011/06/30/ricciardo-gets-his-formula-one-chance/)

[seldo]

That probably shows a flaw in Webbers technique more than anything, using the tyre too hard and pushing it over the edge early. There has to be a reason why his race pace is so far off the bump this year but he has fastest laps....and hes not complaining about the car overly for a chane (neither he should!)Can't fully agree with you Martin - Webber seems to have a problem coming to grips with the tyres, and this may have something to do with his age in that he wants to ensure that he reaches 36...
All his fastest-lap times have come at the end of the race after he has finally become comfortable on the tyres, and many have been on the prime tyre rather than the optional softs...
It's not just coincidence that sees him still there at 35 - he is a slightly cautious guy who takes it stage-by-stage, whereas Vettel, with typical youthful "I'm bullet-proof" exhuberence is prepared to rush at it like a (Red?) bull at a gate....
But - Webber's done his dash again this year - Vettel's as good as spraying the final round champagne - I think the very best Mark can hope for is another 2nd, and that's far from certain so far...
The other alternative is for him to go to someone like Lotus/Renault at a substantially increased retainer, enjoy a less lauded public situation but with a better internal standing, and just enjoy his twi-light years as king of the also-rans...
I suspect he'll stay at RB..

[planetdavo]

I've said it before. Many current drivers have had issues getting these new tyres to either work properly and/or last a decent length of time.
To pan any driver just because their particular driving style takes time to work with these new tyres smacks of armchair expertism to be honest. Schumacher is another that has been panned since his comeback, but he hasn't forgotten how to drive. Last year was his first year back in vastly different cars after several years out, then this year the same brand new tyres many others are having trouble with.
Vettel is obviously a very good driver, but what if Pirelli went a different route with the tyre construction, and it suited Webber better than Vettel. Would the same people be cutting Vettel down???

[Delft Maloo]

more news about ricciardo's F1 drive with hrt at silverstone. Come this round we will have 2 Aussies on the f1 grid:bow::goodjob::goodjob:, it may only be with hrt but its his chance to shine if his car stays reliable.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/6/12240.html

[QIKMIK]

Ricciardo to make history with F1 debut


UPDATE: Young driving sensation Daniel Ricciardo will become the first West Australian to sit behind the wheel in a grand prix when he makes his Formula One debut at Silverstone next weekend.

Ricciardo, who celebrates his 22nd birthday today, will debut in the British Grand Prix and has been guaranteed a seat in all but one race with the Hispania Racing Team for the rest of the season.

Have your say below.

“I was very shocked and had quite a few things going through my head,” Ricciardo said of his elevation into F1 ranks.

“But mainly I was extremely excited.

“For it to be in Silverstone is awesome. I have many memories from there and it’s very close to my second home.

“It’s not Oz, but a great place for my debut.”

Ricciardo said he hoped to simply finish in his first F1 grand prix. “That’s the first objective,” he said.

“To get miles and race distance fitness will be very important and if I can be on pace with my teammate that’s always a target.
“I feel I’m ready for it. I’ve been hanging around the paddock for a year and a half now and done enough other racing to be prepared. I can’t wait.”

“It’s a very proud moment for all of us,” his father, Joe Ricciardo, said yesterday from London before flying to Budapest where his son will continue racing in the World Series by Renault.

“This is what he has worked for since he was very little.”

The Duncraig racer will replace Indian driver Narain Karthikeyan in the struggling Spanish-based team, which made its F1 debut last year.
Silverstone is like a second home for the young racer, who lives just 40 minutes up the road at Milton Keynes. He will fly home from Budapest on Sunday to begin his preparations for the grand prix.

Ricciardo will race in nine of the last 10 races, only missing the second last Indian Grand Prix, which will be Karthikeyan’s swan song.

He “definitely felt ready” for a full-time drive after completing all the Friday practice sessions for Red Bull Racing this season, according to his father. However, he has set no specific goals for the rest of the year.

The deal has been orchestrated by Red Bull with team principal Helmut Marko ringing Ricciardo with the news on Wednesday.

As the team’s reserve driver, Ricciardo has been turning in great times during the practice sessions with Red Bull, the home of fellow Aussie driver Mark Webber.

The plan had been for Ricciardo to replace one of the drivers at sister team Toro Rosso. However, Formula One insiders said management appeared reluctant to pull the trigger at Toro Rosso after improved results from their drivers Sebastian Buemi and Jaime Alguersauri.

But Red Bull were keen to ensure Ricciardo gained race experience and released him to join HRT, which has a best finish of 13th after failing to complete any pre-season practice.

Joe Ricciardo said it wasn’t the “ideal situation” as his son had wanted to race at Toro Rosso.

“Toro Rosso have been doing a good job and it’s hard to pull one of their drivers out,” Joe said.

Both drivers have eight points with their highest finish eighth, twice for Alguersauri in the last two races and once for Buemi, in the first race of the season. They are currently 13th and 14th in the drivers championship, which is being led by Red Bull young gun Sebastien Vettel.

In what is a highly unusual situation, Ricciardo will be the only driver racing in both Formula One and the feeder Renault series.
Even Vettel didn’t complete the Renault season when Red Bull pulled him out halfway through 2007.
After finishing second in the series last year, he is now running fourth — 43 points behind the leader — as the series moves to the Hungaoring this weekend.

Mick

[jc_sv8]

May have something to do with his age in that he wants to ensure that he reaches 36...

Typical youthful "I'm bullet-proof" exhuberence is prepared to rush at it like a bull at a gate....

Completely agree with all that had been said, but I remember another sensational driver who was bullet proof until the bullet finally caught him - Senna.

Now I remember the day I heard the announcement, I wasn't watching the GP, I was overseas and in the wrong timezone, yet a text message woke me, and yes I had a tear in the eye. So I remember the day exactly and where I was.

In Mark shoes, is he wrong?

I think not. It is certainly a fine line they dance, but human is human, he's had his fair share of somersaults...

[seldo]

I've said it before. Many current drivers have had issues getting these new tyres to either work properly and/or last a decent length of time.
To pan any driver just because their particular driving style takes time to work with these new tyres smacks of armchair expertism to be honest. Schumacher is another that has been panned since his comeback, but he hasn't forgotten how to drive. Last year was his first year back in vastly different cars after several years out, then this year the same brand new tyres many others are having trouble with.
Vettel is obviously a very good driver, but what if Pirelli went a different route with the tyre construction, and it suited Webber better than Vettel. Would the same people be cutting Vettel down???Now look Davo - I know you are an expert in everything automotive, whether in truth you
know jack-shit about it, but if your post is aimed at me...(here's your get-out clause) I was not "Panning" Webber" - just stating an admitted fact, he finds it difficult to come to grips with the Pirellis.
Let me make it quite clear - I am an un-abashed fan of Webber - I think he's the best F1 driver to come out of Aust in 30 years....but even he admits that he has problems with the Pirellis.
I think he is a sadly unrequited talent, and he has, for what ever reason, failed to fulfill his talent...but that's motor-racing and the same sobriquet could be applied to another 50 similarly un-requited talents.
I reckon Webber must have a very sore arse after every GP when he goes home and gives himself a thoroughly good arse-kicking - for failing to deliver on an un-arguable talent.

[Martin_D]

Can't fully agree with you Martin - Webber seems to have a problem coming to grips with the tyres, and this may have something to do with his age in that he wants to ensure that he reaches 36...


That is exactly my point
F1 is about the very best of the best, not rewarding mediocrity.
Riccardo is an exciting proposition, he is credentialed and looks to be made of the right stuff for F1.

[planetdavo]

Now look Davo - I know you are an expert in everything automotive, whether in truth you
know jack-shit about it, but if your post is aimed at me...(here's your get-out clause) I was not "Panning" Webber" - just stating an admitted fact, he finds it difficult to come to grips with the Pirellis.
Let me make it quite clear - I am an un-abashed fan of Webber - I think he's the best F1 driver to come out of Aust in 30 years....but even he admits that he has problems with the Pirellis.
I think he is a sadly unrequited talent, and he has, for what ever reason, failed to fulfill his talent...but that's motor-racing and the same sobriquet could be applied to another 50 similarly un-requited talents.
I reckon Webber must have a very sore arse after every GP when he goes home and gives himself a thoroughly good arse-kicking - for failing to deliver on an un-arguable talent.

Get off your high horse. It wasn't aimed straight at you.
It's aimed in general at all the Webber knockers, and there are LOTS of them in Australia.

[planetdavo]

That is exactly my point
F1 is about the very best of the best, not rewarding mediocrity.
Riccardo is an exciting proposition, he is credentialed and looks to be made of the right stuff for F1.

Bit of a backhander going on here, replying to a Webber post with the quote "F1 is about the very best of the best, not rewarding mediocrity."
Ricciardo better reach the absolute top of the pile, or he will cop the same blow torch Webber cops every couple of weeks...

[Martin_D]

Webber has never won a championship even in juniour Formulae. Webber is struggling to manage the best car on the grid, of that there can be no argument. The points difference between Vettel and Weber tell the whole story.

[planetdavo]

Webber has never won a championship even in juniour Formulae. Webber is struggling to manage the best car on the grid, of that there can be no argument. The points difference between Vettel and Weber tell the whole story.

In the very first few rounds of a totally different tyre supplier in 2011, yes.
Go back to 2010 though, when both drivers were making some mistakes in more famaliar machinery, it was awfully close, something Helmut had trouble dealing with. :yup:

[Martin_D]

Yes 2010 was close
Vettel had a major number of engine blow ups which made it look closer than it was IMO
Then with the Championship in the bag, by himself, with no-one within cooee Webber had a brain fart and drove it straight into the wall in Korea. From that moment Webber was mentally broken and had zero chance at the title.
Champions do not do that, and unfortunately Webber did.

[planetdavo]

Yes 2010 was close
Vettel had a major number of engine blow ups which made it look closer than it was IMO
Then with the Championship in the bag, by himself, with no-one within cooee Webber had a brain fart and drove it straight into the wall in Korea. From that moment Webber was mentally broken and had zero chance at the title.
Champions do not do that, and unfortunately Webber did.

Yes they do.
Vettel drove into side of Webber last year, and drove into the back of Button on a perfectly clear piece of track!
Webber isn't "broken". Strategy stuffed him at the final race, as the team was covering Alonso. The result suited the team though. :cool:

[hoon69]

Australia 27/03/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 58 1:29:30.259
Malaysia 10/04/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 56 1:37:39.832
China 17/04/2011 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 56 1:36:58.226
Turkey 08/05/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 58 1:30:17.558
Spain 22/05/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 66 1:39:03.301
Monaco 29/05/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 78 2:09:38.373
Canada 12/06/2011 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 70 4:04:39.537
Europe 26/06/2011 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 57 1:39:36.169

see a pattern?
i dont see it changing except maybe webber grabbing one or two race wins before the end of the season,besides that might as well concentrate on the runners up :confused:

[planetdavo]

Vettel has clearly been the best top 3 teams driver in the best car this year to adapt to the new regs.
Red Bull's car started massively superior to everyone, which brings back memories of the 2009 Brawn GP championship year. This weekends British GP hot blown diffuser ban will tell whether Red Bull have a Brawn GP style performance drop off or not.
Personally I doubt Red Bull will have a huge drop off, just return to the pack a bit more (like they have been doing slowly)

[seedyrom]

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/vettel.jpg

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/webber.jpg

[RARASV8]

VERY NICE Seedy:lmao:

i pissed myself laughing when Mark patted Alonso on the back when they where having photo's taken after qualifying, and as an afterthought patted Vettel on the back. it looked all awkward:lmao:
don't think Vettel likes the new pressure without the hot blow:hide:

Garry

[LuisS]

Webber has never won a championship even in juniour Formulae. Webber is struggling to manage the best car on the grid, of that there can be no argument. The points difference between Vettel and Weber tell the whole story.

So Martin , do you actually think Webber has exactly the same car at his disposal as Vettel ?

Look at McLaren as an example , you seldom see Button & Hamilton separated by much , whether it's in the race or during qualifying. You hardly ever see a bad pitstop ( except for Button trying to stop at Red Bull for tyre change ), let alone a "technical" issue affecting one car or the other.


My opinion is that Red Bull have been subtly trying to "break" Webber's spirit right from the start of the season , give him the bare essentials to keep him on track and hopefully for them at season's end he'll pull the pin and make life a lot easier for them.

I know MW's star doesn't shine as bright as the wonderkid ( knob ) , but in 30yrs of watching F1 I have never seen a driver have so much bad luck whilst sitting in a title winning car.......not even Coulthard at McLaren came close.

KERS issues during qualifying ( always Webber it seems ) , crappy pitstops , bad tyre choices , bad pit strategies - all the while his team mate and his side of the garage cannot do a thing wrong.

Seedy's picture sums it up ;)

[VYSHSV8]

Haha classic :lol:

Gotta love the Aussie g'day

[Souljah]

Great picture there! LOL

A shame that rain interrupted the end of Q1. Would of liked to see Ricciardo give it another shot towards the back end of the session.

[fishla]

So Martin , do you actually think Webber has exactly the same car at his disposal as Vettel ?

Look at McLaren as an example , you seldom see Button & Hamilton separated by much , whether it's in the race or during qualifying. You hardly ever see a bad pitstop ( except for Button trying to stop at Red Bull for tyre change ), let alone a "technical" issue affecting one car or the other.


My opinion is that Red Bull have been subtly trying to "break" Webber's spirit right from the start of the season , give him the bare essentials to keep him on track and hopefully for them at season's end he'll pull the pin and make life a lot easier for them.

I know MW's star doesn't shine as bright as the wonderkid ( knob ) , but in 30yrs of watching F1 I have never seen a driver have so much bad luck whilst sitting in a title winning car.......not even Coulthard at McLaren came close.

KERS issues during qualifying ( always Webber it seems ) , crappy pitstops , bad tyre choices , bad pit strategies - all the while his team mate and his side of the garage cannot do a thing wrong.

Seedy's picture sums it up ;)

Great post there Luis. My sentiments exactly :goodjob:

[hoon69]

Webber on Pole,his team mate beside him and the Ferrari behind its gunna be a great first lap/corner.


WEBBER in my honest opinion is the 2nd best driver in the field his age has done nothing to hinder his natural ability to drive a formula one car,i know in car racing age is a huge barrier but to be in a top team pulling off what he does at his age,shows in my opinion that the younger guys are the ones who need a reality check,imho APS LUIS sums it up nicely actually,so lock it in eddy :lmao:

[bok1]

lets hope mark can get away from the line and not bog it down which he seems to do a lot this year.if he is in front nobody should be able to catch him


phil

[Martin_D]

So Martin , do you actually think Webber has exactly the same car at his disposal as Vettel ?

Actually No.
Redbull spends tens of millions of dollars developing a special car for Webber that is slower than the Vettel car. They also then pay him millions of dollars to drive it, hoping beyond hope he puts it in the wall. You see thats what Formula One teams do, invest hundreds of millions of dollars into a team and try to then sabotage that investment deliberately.

This actually happens the same place 'custom grind cams' are developed - Fantasyland :bow:

[hoon69]

Actually No.
Redbull spends tens of millions of dollars developing a special car for Webber that is slower than the Vettel car. They also then pay him millions of dollars to drive it, hoping beyond hope he puts it in the wall. You see thats what Formula One teams do, invest hundreds of millions of dollars into a team and try to then sabotage that investment deliberately.

This actually happens the same place 'custom grind cams' are developed - Fantasyland :bow:there's a No1 driver and then there's a No2 driver
Mark might have the same car,but as shown in 2010 his def getting the sloppy seconds as its called from Vettel's machine,redbull have shown clearly who they prefer and who's their No1 driver regardless how much money they throw into DEVELOPMENT!

[LuisS]

Actually No.
Redbull spends tens of millions of dollars developing a special car for Webber that is slower than the Vettel car. They also then pay him millions of dollars to drive it, hoping beyond hope he puts it in the wall. You see thats what Formula One teams do, invest hundreds of millions of dollars into a team and try to then sabotage that investment deliberately.

This actually happens the same place 'custom grind cams' are developed - Fantasyland :bow:

RedBull made it quite clear pretty early on that this year's car / the team was to be developed around 'Herr Vettel' - the future of the team. :hitler:

Sabotage? I'd say that's probably an overstatement , more like 'accidentally overlook'

I'm not disputing that at this moment Vettel well and truly has the upper hand , but you cannot deny Webber's run of ' bad luck' , he is no #2 driver.

Maybe his engineers are using disney dynos for his engine mapping ;)

[Martin_D]

I am no F1 engineer - god knows you wont find too many on ls1.com.au
However, if I was...if would want my cars 1-2 on the podium

[planetdavo]

Martin's latest Webber slapping is in progress...
There are many subtle ways to make one driver your priority.
1- Limited new parts- prioritise who gets what (happened last year with Webbers front wing going to Seb).
2- Which driver gets the best of the best technical people in the team
3- Pitstop strategy
4- Subtle but damning media comments to undermine your confidence
But, they get the "same" car, so all things must be equal...:confused:

[Podge]

I believe that Webber and Vettel have a car that is better than any other car on the grid, however Webber (and his team) have failed to get the best out of the package. Unless you were to take the 2 drivers and swap them half way through a day in to each others cars you will never know just how close Webber's car could get to Vettel's.

I highly doubt that Red Bull would sacrifice Webber's performance to the point where he isnt the 2nd quickest car on the grid, thats just stupidity to even suggest.

Im a massive Webber fan but im sorry to say he just hasnt come to grips with this car.

[Martin_D]

Martin's latest Webber slapping is in progress...
There are many subtle ways to make one driver your priority.
1- Limited new parts- prioritise who gets what (happened last year with Webbers front wing going to Seb).
2- Which driver gets the best of the best technical people in the team
3- Pitstop strategy
4- Subtle but damning media comments to undermine your confidence
But, they get the "same" car, so all things must be equal...:confused:

Vettel is four wins clear in the championship - at this stage he MUST get priority. That is a weird phenomena known as 'logic'

[planetdavo]

I believe that Webber and Vettel have a car that is better than any other car on the grid, however Webber (and his team) have failed to get the best out of the package. Unless you were to take the 2 drivers and swap them half way through a day in to each others cars you will never know just how close Webber's car could get to Vettel's.

I highly doubt that Red Bull would sacrifice Webber's performance to the point where he isnt the 2nd quickest car on the grid, thats just stupidity to even suggest.

Im a massive Webber fan but im sorry to say he just hasnt come to grips with this car.

I don't think anyone has said that Redbull want Webber worse than second, but surely even you have to agree that Mark has had quite a number of "difficulties" Vettel has barely had to face.
True fans of the sport will already note that Mark is getting on top of both the tyre issues and the psychological dramas to be where he is tonight.
I hope he smokes the knockers opinions right into the ground, but I feel Alonso is a huge chance for the win tonight (weather dependant)

[futurels1]

Vettel is four wins clear in the championship - at this stage he MUST get priority. That is a weird phenomena known as 'logic'

+1 for logic

[futurels1]

I don't think anyone has said that Redbull want Webber worse than second, but surely even you have to agree that Mark has had quite a number of "difficulties" Vettel has barely had to face.
True fans of the sport will already note that Mark is getting on top of both the tyre issues and the psychological dramas to be where he is tonight.
I hope he smokes the knockers opinions right into the ground, but I feel Alonso is a huge chance for the win tonight (weather dependant)

Speaking of Marks difficulties this (and many other) season.

Vettel would have smoked the championship in 2011 if it werent for many accidents and mechanical failures.

Why would MArk re sign for 2012 if he felt he wasnt being given a chance to contend for the championship?

Webbers main troubles are in the tyres NOT the hardware. Alonso will be the one too watch 2nite.

[Martin_D]

Our F1 tipping board at work had me down with Alonso for pole and SVet for the win...see how we go :)

[planetdavo]

Vettel is four wins clear in the championship - at this stage he MUST get priority. That is a weird phenomena known as 'logic'

"Logic" suggests that with the team favouring Vettel before the season even started, Mark would never get the best of the best this year, making it awfully hard for him to achieve his full potential...:idea:

[planetdavo]

Vettel would have smoked the championship in 2011 if it werent for many accidents and mechanical failures.

Why would MArk re sign for 2012 if he felt he wasnt being given a chance to contend for the championship?



I think you mean 2010.
Yes Vettel had a number of incidents last year, but with Webber's often quoted Korea wall crunch and then poor strategy decisions in the final race, he himself lost a heap of points. Vettel taking him off the track in Hungary cost a few points too, so it's not quite as simple as you say it is.

[6_litre_man]

Webber had a brain fart and drove it straight into the wall in Korea.
Champions do not do that, and unfortunately Webber did.


I think you mean 2010.
Yes Vettel had a number of incidents last year, but with Webber's often quoted Korea wall crunch and then poor strategy decisions in the final race, he himself lost a heap of points. Vettel taking him off the track in Hungary cost a few points too, so it's not quite as simple as you say it is.

so martin you say webber drove into a wall and that champions dont dont do that. And then as planet davo said and we all know, vettel takes him off track in hungary. Pretty sure a champion did do that.

I dont know about you but a guy racing his hardest drops a wheel off the kerb into mud and spins out and collects a wall has nothing on driving into the side of your OWN TEAM MATE on a long wide staright piece of road with no one else around. Sorry, thats wat a champion does instead, much better

Cheers
Matt

[Podge]

I don't think anyone has said that Redbull want Webber worse than second, but surely even you have to agree that Mark has had quite a number of "difficulties" Vettel has barely had to face.
True fans of the sport will already note that Mark is getting on top of both the tyre issues and the psychological dramas to be where he is tonight.
I hope he smokes the knockers opinions right into the ground, but I feel Alonso is a huge chance for the win tonight (weather dependant)

Ok so Red Bull implants these 'difficulties' but expect him to beat Ferrari, McLaren, etc to 2nd? Remember he had these 'difficulties' in the first race in Melbourne, before anybody knew the real performance of each other's cars.

As for Webber having 'tyre' issues and being on top of them (and his psychological dramas), you cant judge tyre performance from a single qualifying session, nor can you judge anything from a session that went from dry to wet.

As i said, i am a massive Webber fan (as am i any Aussie in international competition) but to quote the wolf man, "lets not start sucking each others dicks just yet".

[planetdavo]

Ok so Red Bull implants these 'difficulties' but expect him to beat Ferrari, McLaren, etc to 2nd? Remember he had these 'difficulties' in the first race in Melbourne, before anybody knew the real performance of each other's cars.

As for Webber having 'tyre' issues and being on top of them (and his psychological dramas), you cant judge tyre performance from a single qualifying session, nor can you judge anything from a session that went from dry to wet.

As i said, i am a massive Webber fan (as am i any Aussie in international competition) but to quote the wolf man, "lets not start sucking each others dicks just yet".

Even the team acknowledges the tyre issues Mark has faced. They did, of course, start from the very first race of the year with the new Pirelli's...
Perhaps all I need to say now is that Mark has been getting better, and better, and better lately. Back to where he should be, which of course sees him getting closer and closer and closer to his favoured team mate (or out qualifying him)...:yup:

[Martin_D]

I dont know about you but a guy racing his hardest drops a wheel off the kerb into mud and spins out and collects a wall has nothing on driving into the side of your OWN TEAM MATE on a long wide staright piece of road with no one else around. Sorry, thats wat a champion does instead, much better
Cheers
Matt

You have obviously never heard of Senna and Prost....(both champions too I might add)
As team mates for the championship
OOOgfsc5wc4
The following year for the championship (not team mates)
foiswIS44AM

Webber and Vettel. Vettel much faster is past and takes the line for the next corner, Webber plays hardball pushes Vet out off the road into the dirt, keeps him on the dirt and them tags him off the road
slk2PGCux8I


Webber had 50/50 in that one.

[LuisS]

re. Webber vs Vettel @ Turkey - we keep harping back to this , and yes , maybe he played hardball BUT he was asked to change his engine map to a "fuel saving" mode the lap before which allowed "the finger" to catch up and attempt the pass.

There is a wealth of factual accounts of the event , and the events surrounding "webbergate". Happy to cut and paste for those that haven't read it all.:deal:

[planetdavo]

C'mon APS Luis, don't cut Martin down on this subject!
You know he doesn't want to accept that Mark left Vettel enough bitumen to get past, but STILL Vettel somehow managed to take them both off the track...:bawl:

[Martin_D]

F1 drivers - should - be playing hardball and pushing each other into the fences. Its a bloody big risk in an open wheeler, but wouldnt it be boring without it.
Webber showed a good sized set of stones there, if even it was a little rash. That is one of the 2010 moves he should be commended for.

[planetdavo]

Webber showed a good sized set of stones there

Webber showed a good set of stones in quali 3 to get on pole (in progressively deteriorating conditions).
Best wishes for a quality race for him (and no botched pitstops on his car :hide:)

[Martin_D]

Look what happens when those pricks from RedBull pay off Lotus to brake test Mark. That was a 100% setup....
LkrChSF53wQ

[6_litre_man]

Mate you just showed 3 videos of champions making stupid mistakes, but yet you said about mark crashing in korea thats champions don do that and that y he wasnt champion.

And the webber vettel crash, i dont know what footage your watching but if you watch and listen to commentary, webber left room, he didnt push him into the dirt and keep him there, there was room and vettel moved right, you can clearly see it in the head on shot. And as the f1 commentators who know the rules better than you and i said, there is nothing that said mark had to give him any more room than he did and that he left the door well open, vettel brain snap, mark was not in the wrong at all

Cheers
Matt

[planetdavo]

I'd like to see Martin avoid an accident when 0.1 of a second behind someone who brakes earlier than you do at well over 200km/h...:idea:

[Martin_D]

Maybe if I was paid millions of dollars a year to do so, and avoiding these kind of accidents was an important part of my job from leaving school, then just maybe I might :idea:
These guys are supposed to be the best in the world, bar none

[6_litre_man]

I'd like to see Martin avoid an accident when 0.1 of a second behind someone who brakes earlier than you do at well over 200km/h...:idea:

Cmon davo, of course he could, hes martin lol. Continues to bash webber around about his actions so he must be able to do better.

Cheers
Matt

[Martin_D]

Mate you just showed 3 videos of champions making stupid mistakes
Cheers
Matt

Thats the crux of it. None of those 'accidents' were mistakes. Each one had a fairly high level of intent :)

[Moderators]

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