locked pcm vy ss

[vessls3]

rang a shop today to get a code to unlock a pcm so i can retune due to engine swap the wankers would not give me the code and were very rude and unhelpful to me lucky this particular shop is in another state because i would have gone down there and smashed it over their head now i think if i own the car that means i own the computer so i think i have the right to have it unlocked regardless of situations why do all these kob heads lock these computers do they think tuning a car is some sort of massive secret that needs to be locked away frigen crap i reckon

[dgp]

Why didn't you ask them if you could send it to them, have them unlock it and install the original tune, then send it back to you.
I am sure if you explained about the change of motor they would accomodate you.
Sometimes people are hard to get along with for whatever reason, but getting agro gets you no where.

[Dan_]

Just hazarding a guess that there would be a bit of IP on the tunes and as such they don't want their tune being copied by another tuner.

[mattnsw]

Why make the tune available to others after they have spend time and money doing the R&D.

They are simply protecting their intellectual property rights.

Normal & good business practice in my books.




'Dan beat me too it.'

[zorro]

its funny though, the ones that I have seen locked I wouldnt put into another car anyway :lmao:

[macca_779]

Why make the tune available to others after they have spend time and money doing the R&D.

They are simply protecting their intellectual property rights.

Normal & good business practice in my books.




'Dan beat me too it.'

The data they are trying to hide is easily logged and generated into MAP's to see whats in there anyway. I agree with Zoro, if its locked its usually shit to begin with. All locking does is inconvenience the customer and the next guy that is trying to work on the car.

[vessls3]

The data they are trying to hide is easily logged and generated into MAP's to see whats in there anyway. I agree with Zoro, if its locked its usually shit to begin with. All locking does is inconvenience the customer and the next guy that is trying to work on the car.

here here finally someone that makes sense i couldnt give a shit what tune is in in its only got gears exhaust otr doesnt take rocket scientists to do that tune

[vessls3]

Why didn't you ask them if you could send it to them, have them unlock it and install the original tune, then send it back to you.
I am sure if you explained about the change of motor they would accomodate you.
Sometimes people are hard to get along with for whatever reason, but getting agro gets you no where.

why should i waste my time and money mailing it too them the dickheads shouldnt have locked it in the first place they talking like it top secret info come on be real i just get argo when wankers on phones start talking to me like shit

[planetdavo]

You've shown a pretty angry side to your personality in this thread. Did you just demand they give it to you?
As said, how would they possibly know you are telling the truth or not about potentially copying their tune?
Secondly, you are at least admitting someone other than them will be doing further work, so I'm not surprised they weren't responsive.

[vessls3]

You've shown a pretty angry side to your personality in this thread. Did you just demand they give it to you?
As said, how would they possibly know you are telling the truth or not about potentially copying their tune?
Secondly, you are at least admitting someone other than them will be doing further work, so I'm not surprised they weren't responsive.

no i asked them nicey in the begining and they gave me instant attitude like i said i dont give a shit bout ther tune im doing an engine swap which i explained to them right from the start and someone other than them doing the work has stuff all to do with them i just bought the car and im in a different state to them

[Martin_D]

- We can unlock it - no problems :)
Locked LS1 PCMs only generally keep out the beginners :lol:

[vessls3]

- We can unlock it - no problems :)
Locked LS1 PCMs only generally keep out the beginners :lol:

thanks martin yer i no but thats not the point it usually cost 150 dollars to unlock why should i shell that out just because some dickhead has decided they wanted to lock it coz they think they have some secret tune

[zorro]

what they dont tell you is they embed the cure for cancer in their tunes hence why they are locked. Or another reason so others cant see what they have stolen from other tuners

[vessls3]

what they dont tell you is they embed the cure for cancer in their tunes hence why they are locked. Or another reason so others cant see what they have stolen from other tuners

and to hide there shit tune so people that no how to tune wont make fun of how rubbish it is

[Wonky]

and to hide there shit tune so people that no how to tune wont make fun of how rubbish it is

+1 :yup: :yup:

[LSavvy]

Have you guys thought of all the reasons apart from "hiding shit tunes".

What if a reputable workshop does a heap of work and tunning on say a turbo car. Owners mate knows how to "tune and get more out of it" then plays with tune and detonates engine. Original tuners tune is then put back in and the owner blames the reputable guy for blowing his engine up.

And what if then the owner got on a forum and shares half their story about said tuner blowing up their engine with their tune.

I have no probs with tuners locking their tune for this very reason.

[AF20NC]

Locking pcm's I will never understand, from a customers point of view didn't they just pay $800 for example just to have the cars tune optimised and not to have it locked, lets look at it a different way lets say I purchase a locking fuel cap for my car, now said company had to spend money on research and development does that give them the right that every time I want to make a change in fuel level in my car that I have to take it back to the same company and pay a premium for the privilege of them to access the fuel tank for me of couse not that would be ridiculous and on the other side of things I think that it could be classed as anti-competitive conduct by the ACCC anyway thats just the way I see it :)

[macca33]

You do have a point there AF20NC - I'd be interested to see how the regulatory bodies would look upon this very issue.

It has been discussed many times before and I'm one who does not believe a tuner has a right to lock a customer's PCM - IP doesn't cut it really; the wheel is not being reinvented here.

cheers

[ice57l]

dont get me started on this.... i asked if it would be locked and was told no , so i got it tuned.. then found it was lock when trying to get it to run right.. now its easyier to get another ecu and get it tuned through someone that wont lock it.... Grrrr more money... and then i feel because i said something . they didnt do a good tune... i dont know... went from 2154 rwkws spinning 1st 2nd to now 272rwkws and wont even try to spin the tyres unless dumped clutch that carnt be right.... i think its my ecu... i should have the keys to it... just like every other thing i own....

[stockergts]

silly q how can you tell if the pcm is locked i have to get mined tuned for the motor but i do have a spare that i got when working at holden

[VYSHSV8]

dont get me started on this.... i asked if it would be locked and was told no , so i got it tuned.. then found it was lock when trying to get it to run right.. now its easyier to get another ecu and get it tuned through someone that wont lock it.... Grrrr more money... and then i feel because i said something . they didnt do a good tune... i dont know... went from 2154 rwkws spinning 1st 2nd to now 272rwkws and wont even try to spin the tyres unless dumped clutch that carnt be right.... i think its my ecu... i should have the keys to it... just like every other thing i own....

No wonder you were spinning with 2154rwks :lol:
and to be cut back to 272rwks:(:( i would be pissed:lol:


ps its a joke:jester:

[ice57l]

:rofl: hahaha was ment to be 215 rwkw ...

[vessls3]

Have you guys thought of all the reasons apart from "hiding shit tunes".

What if a reputable workshop does a heap of work and tunning on say a turbo car. Owners mate knows how to "tune and get more out of it" then plays with tune and detonates engine. Original tuners tune is then put back in and the owner blames the reputable guy for blowing his engine up.

And what if then the owner got on a forum and shares half their story about said tuner blowing up their engine with their tune.

I have no probs with tuners locking their tune for this very reason.

that is a very touchy topic that one and should be left alone !!!

[planetdavo]

Maybe the "anto lock" brigade should be asking potential tuners before paying if they will leave it unlocked. If they say lock only, go elsewhere, if it's important enough.
End of the day, plenty of tuners have made a sh!tload of money out of Commodore owners, whether they lock it or not.

[GMMAD]

Locking pcm's I will never understand, from a customers point of view didn't they just pay $800 for example just to have the cars tune optimised and not to have it locked, lets look at it a different way lets say I purchase a locking fuel cap for my car, now said company had to spend money on research and development does that give them the right that every time I want to make a change in fuel level in my car that I have to take it back to the same company and pay a premium for the privilege of them to access the fuel tank for me of couse not that would be ridiculous and on the other side of things I think that it could be classed as anti-competitive conduct by the ACCC anyway thats just the way I see it :)
they are locked from the factory
does that mean GM can be taken to the ACCC

[LSavvy]

that is a very touchy topic that one and should be left alone !!!

While it is "touchy" i think it is important here and is real.

[ice57l]

i did ask ... was told they wouldnt but they did.... the truth please... i wouldnt of got it done other wise...

[zorro]

they are locked from the factory
does that mean GM can be taken to the ACCC

not entirely, id say its a money grab from tuning software companies as if you didnt have to licence the car to the controller you would want a bit more coin for the initial sale. crdits/licencees is ongoing easy money, makes good business sense to me.

Holden should lock them, seen tunes that make stock tunes look good

[JezzaB]

they are locked from the factory
does that mean GM can be taken to the ACCC

Yup as GMMAD said they are locked from the factory and its just because the tuning software programmers cracked the codes. Nearly all manufacturers are lock from the factory, ls1's are a simple setup but when you move onto the more exotic stuff that uses sharing of RSA keys etc.

Some people go to another tuner and they use different tuning software and claim that it is locked when it technically is not

[vz6.0]

the factory tune would be locked as part of its emissions compliance responsibilities wouldnt it?

In the grand old days, adjustable screws on a carburettor would be epoxied over for the same reason.

I too think its bullshit for a pcm to be locked, even holden cant force you to have your car serviced by them yet a locked pcm virtually forces you to return to the same tuner for any further tweaks.

And as ive said before, i find the irony delicious that "hacking" the factory tune in order to change it is ok, but "some tuners" get real pissy that someone else might do it to them.

Why arent engine builders sealing up engines for the same bullshit I.P.excuse when they fit a cam/head combo?

anyway, if thats the way it is there aint much that can be done, the ACCC's eyes would glaze over when you try explaining the situation to them and the only interested people would be the EPA and transport authority for the (in most cases) deliberate flouting of compliance to emissions and adr's.

As has been said, if its a real concern to you, ask before you hand over the dollars whether the pcm will be locked, or make sure the next guy is good enough to figure out whats happening from extrapolated data.

[Stewge]

Just chiming in from a different angle for all those who think tuners are "protecting" their tune. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here...I'm unsure of if the PCMs are locked at the factory or not.

As far as I can tell, the tune is entirely software. Seeing as Aus doesn't have software patents I fail to see how "protecting" their tune, no matter how good it is, can be a valid excuse. After all, they're merely tweaking existing software to operate differently, so if anyone can step in and claim "ownership" via copyright (not patent) then it's GM (or whoever built/programmed the PCM originally). Modifying it for personal use would be perfectly fine, copying and selling it would be bad.

If the entire module was replaced with a custom one built entirely by them and running their own completely separate software then that's a different story.

So even if the tuner owned the copyright to their tune, which is extremely doubtful seeing as what they've essentially done is modified someone else's software then SOLD it (which would technically be a copyright breach in itself), then they still have no right to lock you out in the end.

My 2 cents.

[AF20NC]

they are locked from the factory
does that mean GM can be taken to the ACCC

Pretty sure GM has many dealerships that can access any gm computer to do certain mods for example speedo calibration which can't be done if locked and some scan tools can do the same which most shops have these days but if locked means you have to go back to the exact same company who locked the computer in the first place.........

:soap:I THINK THAT THIS COULD BE THE TIME TO LISTS SHOPS THAT DON'T LOCK PCMS, LOOK AFTER THERE CUSTOMERS AND WANT OUR BUSINESS INSTEAD OF BENDING THEM OVER AT ANY AND EVERY OPPORTUNITY :soap:

[VYSHSV8]

Yup as GMMAD said they are locked from the factory and its just because the tuning software programmers cracked the codes. Nearly all manufacturers are lock from the factory, ls1's are a simple setup but when you move onto the more exotic stuff that uses sharing of RSA keys etc.

Some people go to another tuner and they use different tuning software and claim that it is locked when it technically is not


Bingo well said Jez:):)

[WKGrange]

I guess its like any of the software we sell - you buy a license to use it but you never own the source code that remains the property of the developer.

[Peter B - CV8]

I don't have any real issues with a manufacturer/tuner locking their tune. Afterall, when I buy KFC - I don't expect to be given the recipe, same goes for most other consumables.

[swingtan]

It's funny how this topic comes up every once in a while. For those who believe tunes shouldn't be locked, think about this.

Music Bands earn money from the sale of their songs. They use the same notes as all the other bands, but arrange them in different orders. They have a right to earn money off their particular arrangement and they protect that right.

When you get your PCM/ECM/TCM tuned, the same parameters are used, but applied in different ways. The finess with which these changes are made are no trivial matter and people that tune for a living don't like people stealing their work. It's an understandable possition. Add to that, that workshops need to ensure that any package deals they do need to carry some sort of warranty and the excuse for locking is much greater.

If people are that concerned about the locking of tunes, then do what I did. Buy the software and tune the car yourself. Expect a very steep learning curve and don't even think you are going to make any big inroads for a number of months. Also expect to be stuck on certain areas of the tune for a very, very long time. You may even want to attend a tuning course, which are mainly run in the States, so add that to the costs involved.

If you specify that you want a tune unlocked, then it should be left unlocked. But really it comes down to the tuner / shop. If the shop is good and has the runs on the board, there should be no problems with locking. Personally, I've never locked a tune, but I only tune friends cars. I'm quite certain that aspects of what I've done have been pulled from cars and used elsewhere, maybe even whole tunes. While it doesn't really worry me, I'd mauch rather explain the techniques involved and let people then work it out themselves.

Simon.

[vessls3]

the main problem as i stated is i bought the car with mods and am doing an engine swap just thought we would check if it was locked so when the time comes for tuning we wouldnt get stuck and sure enough it was locked when i rang the particular shop and asked for the code this is when the shit started if i had the work done and they locked it perhaps i wouldnt have been so pissed but i had no choice in the matter weather it was locked or not when i asked them the attitude started flying im am also in a different state which also makes it harder they also said that i could post them the pcm theyed unlock it put standard tune in it and send it back WTF i dont think so why should i pay for this and end up with a standard tune till im ready to swap the engine sound like crap to me what a bunch of wankers

[Martin_D]

Who was it?

[vessls3]

Who was it?

one of the forum sponsers

[LSavvy]

Simons post is spot on I reckon.



Pretty sure GM has many dealerships that can access any gm computer to do certain mods for example speedo calibration which can't be done if locked and some scan tools can do the same which most shops have these days but if locked means you have to go back to the exact same company who locked the computer in the first place.........

:soap:I THINK THAT THIS COULD BE THE TIME TO LISTS SHOPS THAT DON'T LOCK PCMS, LOOK AFTER THERE CUSTOMERS AND WANT OUR BUSINESS INSTEAD OF BENDING THEM OVER AT ANY AND EVERY OPPORTUNITY :soap:

Funny that, mine is locked and I had a tech 2 (not from Holden) hooked up to calibrate the dash with no probs.


the main problem as i stated is i bought the car with mods and am doing an engine swap just thought we would check if it was locked so when the time comes for tuning we wouldnt get stuck and sure enough it was locked when i rang the particular shop and asked for the code this is when the shit started if i had the work done and they locked it perhaps i wouldnt have been so pissed but i had no choice in the matter weather it was locked or not when i asked them the attitude started flying im am also in a different state which also makes it harder they also said that i could post them the pcm theyed unlock it put standard tune in it and send it back WTF i dont think so why should i pay for this and end up with a standard tune till im ready to swap the engine sound like crap to me what a bunch of wankers

Sounds like anything they offered you was not going to be good enough. They offered to unlock and remove your tune and you are upset about courier costs. How much is the replacement engine costing you? Surely it's no biggie to courier a small package interstate and back. Do you just eventually want to touch up their tune not starting from a base tune with a new combo?

[VYSHSV8]

Welcome to reality:):)
And as you said you purchased the car like that already done:):) they don't know you from a bar of soap and theoretically don't have to do a thing you never paid for the service another customer did
But then you jump up and down when you don't get your own way
They have offered you a scenario and you have said no

Wait till you get ready to do the swap and then send it away and by the time you have done the swap she will be back unless you do it in a day:):)

Or get to know your local tuner and he can help you out :):)

[vessls3]

you all just keep missing the point its my computer i own it and regardless of who did the work i should have the right to unlock it if i want them too and cost means f345all to me its principle

[VYSHSV8]

you all just keep missing the point its my computer i own it and regardless of who did the work i should have the right to unlock it if i want them too and cost means f345all to me its principle

Well go buy the program to unlock it and we shall see what the cheap way is then :):):)
Actually Holden own the rights you don't :):)

Go spend the 5-900 bucks and do it yourself and see how far you get if you have never done it before :):)

[vessls3]

Well go buy the program to unlock it and we shall see what the cheap way is then :):):)
Actually Holden own the rights you don't :):)

Go spend the 5-900 bucks and do it yourself and see how far you get if you have never done it before :):)

why would i do that when i can get it unlocked for 150 by the workshop doing the work for me dont know how you came up with that fairy tale

[Roonstain]

Yeah mate, you need to calm down and quit with the attitude that the world owes you something.

They are running a business, and you just bought a car second hand - they owe you nothing. Why should they waste time on you? How do they know what you are doing with it - plenty of bad eggs in this game

Suck it up and send the pcm to them - will cost bugger all, and you should have it back in a couple of days tops

[exwrx]

Locked or unlocked there are pros and cons.

The important issue is one of disclosure up front, rather than locking all tunes without informing the vehicle owner beforehand. Its bad for business.

As Martin says, tell us who it is.

[vessls3]

Yeah mate, you need to calm down and quit with the attitude that the world owes you something.

They are running a business, and you just bought a car second hand - they owe you nothing. Why should they waste time on you? How do they know what you are doing with it - plenty of bad eggs in this game

Suck it up and send the pcm to them - will cost bugger all, and you should have it back in a couple of days tops

your just as bad as them go to bed

[vessls3]

Locked or unlocked there are pros and cons.

The important issue is one of disclosure up front, rather than locking all tunes without informing the vehicle owner beforehand. Its bad for business.

As Martin says, tell us who it is.
im not saying the name not my place to start raging business hence why i havent named them

[Roonstain]

your just as bad as them go to bed
:lol: :lol:
WTF does the "go to bed" comment meant to mean???

If you are going to a workshop over there in SA who you reckon are the sh!t, maybe they will do it out of the kindness of their hearts???

[VYSHSV8]

why would i do that when i can get it unlocked for 150 by the workshop doing the work for me dont know how you came up with that fairy tale

Mate you really need to think:):)
Go buy the tuning software and learn yourself like some of us have and see how long it takes:):)

Time is money and tuners have spent hrs on dyno's etc etc getting te tunes right and that costs:):)
Not that I amagainst locked or unlocked pcm's they originally came locked factory by Holden hsv etc etc and for a reason so people can't change things and blow an engine and then change them back and you go back for warranty etc etc

Also they are locked for EPA reasons:):)

People invented the software to modify the computer sonpeople can do it :):)

Now go learn what some people know:)
I can go on for ages if you want

[vessls3]

:lol: :lol:
WTF does the "go to bed" comment meant to mean???

If you are going to a workshop over there in SA who you reckon are the sh!t, maybe they will do it out of the kindness of their hearts???

where do all you people keep coming up with these fairy tales when did i say the workshop im going to is the shit no wonder people get upset with a world full of dreamers

[vessls3]

Mate you really need to think:):)
Go buy the tuning software and learn yourself like some of us have and see how long it takes:):)

Time is money and tuners have spent hrs on dyno's etc etc getting te tunes right and that costs:):)
Not that I amagainst locked or unlocked pcm's they originally came locked factory by Holden hsv etc etc and for a reason so people can't change things and blow an engine and then change them back and you go back for warranty etc etc

Also they are locked for EPA reasons:):)

People invented the software to modify the computer sonpeople can do it :):)

Now go learn what some people know:)
I can go on for ages if you want

please keep going you are enteraining me i have nothing to do this evening

[VYSHSV8]

please keep going you are enteraining me i have nothing to do this evening

I won't because you have absolutely no understanding of anything except everyone owes you :goodjob::goodjob::bow:

So know need to teach you anything mr almighty who knows all

[LSavvy]

your just as bad as them go to bed

Mate you start a thread and people put opinions forward and you are carrying on like this.

You don't want to listen to reason you just think you have the right to want what you want and when you want it.


They offered a reasonable solution and you decline for the sake of courier costs, go and pay the $150 and get it unlocked elsewhere.

[Delft Maloo]

Mate the tuner owe's you nothing, the job was done for a different customer and once he sold that car thats it unless he was offering an ongoing warranty. They offered you a way out and you weren't happy with that, you say they were rude to you but id find it hard to believe that you didnt take the same bad attitude with them as the attitude you have in this thread.
Your tuner can resolve this for you plain and simple.

[vessls3]

I won't because you have absolutely no understanding of anything except everyone owes you :goodjob::goodjob::bow:

So know need to teach you anything mr almighty who knows all

you should get your hand off your flute and stop making up crap you show me anywhere that i claimed that i know everything i just wanted my pcm unlocked so i could put a new tune in it dont no where you come up with the everyone owes me bullshit from i merely ask a shop to do something for me and they treated me like shit and the world owes me please

[vessls3]

Mate the tuner owe's you nothing, the job was done for a different customer and once he sold that car thats it unless he was offering an ongoing warranty. They offered you a way out and you weren't happy with that, you say they were rude to you but id find it hard to believe that you didnt take the same bad attitude with them as the attitude you have in this thread.
Your tuner can resolve this for you plain and simple.

jesus christ it another parrot

[VYSHSV8]

Mate you start a thread and people put opinions forward and you are carrying on like this.

You don't want to listen to reason you just think you have the right to want what you want and when you want it.


They offered a reasonable solution and you decline for the sake of courier costs, go and pay the $150 and get it unlocked elsewhere.


Mate the tuner owe's you nothing, the job was done for a different customer and once he sold that car thats it unless he was offering an ongoing warranty. They offered you a way out and you weren't happy with that, you say they were rude to you but id find it hard to believe that you didnt take the same bad attitude with them as the attitude you have in this thread.
Your tuner can resolve this for you plain and simple.

Well said guys :):)
I have tried explaining the same thing but to no avail :(

[boggers007]

This is just ridiculous

[Delft Maloo]

This is one of the threads that drags this place down:goodjob:.

[vessls3]

Mate you start a thread and people put opinions forward and you are carrying on like this.

You don't want to listen to reason you just think you have the right to want what you want and when you want it.


They offered a reasonable solution and you decline for the sake of courier costs, go and pay the $150 and get it unlocked elsewhere.

no opinions turned into the world owes me and by the way the solution wasnt reasonable why should i be put out it takes 10 seconds to tell me the code thats it job done never have to hear from me again

[VXSS5702]

you all just keep missing the point its my computer i own it and regardless of who did the work i should have the right to unlock it if i want them too and cost means f345all to me its principle
I disagree with that. My company builds automation machinery and as part of that we develop software that is downloaded to a machine that controls its operation. We purchase the hardware and develop the software. Every machine we design/build is provided with a guarantee of performance. There are product liability laws that also mean we have responsibilities to a customer who has purchased a machine from us. We lock all our software programs so they can not be read, uploaded, copied or altered. This protects us from possible litigation or errors of code that could be downloaded. Our customers have purchased the "machine" that functions according to their specifications. They have not purchased a license to allow them to copy, alter or on sell any software code that was developed for the machine that I designed! I think most "tuners" would feel the same way.

[hRTHSV]

I've got an idea lets lock the thread.

BTW I don't think locking is a good idea, but geez enough already, I reckon it's about $1500 to get it unlocked by now.

[vessls3]

This is one of the threads that drags this place down:goodjob:.

and guess what its not my fault i just put up the thread bout locked pcm and everyone starts carring on like a pork chop well done everyone

[LSavvy]

Have your new tuner unlock it. You have been told that it can be done by a tuner that knows what they are doing so it shouldn't be an issue.

[vessls3]

I disagree with that. My company builds automation machinery and as part of that we develop software that is downloaded to a machine that controls its operation. We purchase the hardware and develop the software. Every machine we design/build is provided with a guarantee of performance. There are product liability laws that also mean we have responsibilities to a customer who has purchased a machine from us. We lock all our software programs so they can not be read, uploaded, copied or altered. This protects us from possible litigation or errors of code that could be downloaded. Our customers have purchased the "machine" that functions according to their specifications. They have not purchased a license to allow them to copy, alter or on sell any software code that was developed for the machine that I designed! I think most "tuners" would feel the same way.

i agree with you on that fully but i just think cars is a different story

[vessls3]

Have your new tuner unlock it. You have been told that it can be done by a tuner that knows what they are doing so it shouldn't be an issue.

that is what i will do this is a forum and forums are for discussion hence the reason for the thread people should be a little less uptight and learn this is only a forum just a place to talk no need to get so upset

[dgp]

that is what i will do this is a forum and forums are for discussion hence the reason for the thread people should be a little less uptight and learn this is only a forum just a place to talk no need to get so upset

mate, a day has gone past now, and you have had time to calm down.
Go back and have a look at your initial post, i think that when you wrote it you might have been a bit upset yourself.

[XLR8 V8]

and guess what its not my fault i just put up the thread bout locked pcm and everyone starts carring on like a pork chop well done everyone


jesus christ it another parrot


your just as bad as them go to bed
Posts like this make it clear you refuse to accept any opinions that disagree with your own, which makes it pointless for this thread to continue.
The reasons why tuners may or may not lock their tunes have been covered plenty before, and if you gave as much attitude back on the phone as you have in this thread, I can see why you didn't get anywhere with the tuner.

:closed: