Refined Cam Questions

[BECAUZ]

Ok over the last few weeks I've read multiple threads relating to cams which size and so on. Few questions i have which i could not seem to find any answers about.

As some are aware my car has been involved in an accident and still has not been repaired. Been well over 3 weeks now and work is finally going to start this monday.

Now while the car is in for repairs there seems to be no better time then NOW to get a cam thrown in.

Questions

1. Driving with cam, a close friend of mine has told me that the drive becomes some what harsh and he doesnt like to drive in higher gears because it tends to jerk the car, and this was the case until he upgraded his diff gears, not sure if i believe this or not so im after other opinions.

2. Now i know cam sizes have been discussed hundreds of thousands of times but for someone who isnt to mechanically literate they kind of mean nothing to me especially with all the 2**/**/** jargon. What i do kno is most workshops(sponsored) seem to have stage cams. There is no difference in price but they go from stage 1 through to stage 4. Can someone please inform me from an outsiders point what the difference is in the stages.

3. It is the only car i own, im happy with the power it has but would love to have a cam. What other thoughts and considerations should i have? It is the first V8 i've ever owned and so obviously not sure what to expect.

4. Future issues/drama's. What could go wrong? Is there any extra maintenance, precautionary duties that need to be performed once aa bigger cam is installed other then the normal things we already have to do?

N.B all other threads i have researched are about sizes, if this falls in the category of the others please delete

[Holden Nut]

1. Yes the car can jerk and surge at low rpm under certain conditions. A good tuner can get rid of it to a certain extent but this mostly comes down to the cam and how good the tuner is. My car gets this mildly with the comp cams 222/224 cam.

2. You can't really compare "stages" between workshops. Basically a stage 1 will be that workshops entry level cam right through to stage 4 or whatever their top number is, will be there most 'extreme' modifications. In saying that it's fairly useless and you cannot compare as stage 1 at workshop a could be totally different to stage 1 at workshop b.

3. I can say I've done modifications to my car based off what I have read here. If there is ANYTHING I cannot stress enough it is to go for a drive or atleast be driven in a car that has the mod you want. Everyone has their own ideas as to whats loud/quiet/smooth/rough and so on and so forth. Do not repeat NOT get sucked in to what everyone on here has to say because even though it suits them it may not suit you!

4. Not really, keep up the maintenance like you normally would, some huge cams can be a bit harder on the valve springs and they might wear out quicker depending on the cam and how you drive (maybe someone can help me here). If you have an auto you might need to consider a bigger torque converter to smooth things out and some on here with manuals seem to be clutch happy as it is, so getting a cam and/or more power seems to expedite the failure of their clutch.

[EfiJy]

No that is not right, a cammed car should not jerk under any cirumstances.

Any tuner accepting money should be able to dial the jerkiness out of the engine no matter what gear you are in.

The problem is that too many persons with cammed cars accept mediocrity because they are told the jerkiness normal when it's not.

[BECAUZ]

No that is not right, a cammed car should not jerk under any cirumstances.

Any tuner accepting money should be able to dial the jerkiness out of the engine no matter what gear you are in.

The problem is that too many persons with cammed cars accept mediocrity because they are told the jerkiness normal when it's not.

So seeing as my car is at a renowned workshop and a forum sponsor this is something i should not have to worry about?

[macca33]

So seeing as my car is at a renowned workshop and a forum sponsor this is something i should not have to worry about?
Correct - it should not jerk / surge if the tune is on the money and you've chosen a realistic cam for the engine.

Diff gears do help with a camshaft, mostly, because in the ordinary course of events, a larger duration cam will raise the power / torque curve to a higher point in the operating rev-band of the engine, eg: the oem cam in an LS1 produces power from, say 1500rpm to 5000rpm, a 224/228 cam in the same engine might produce its power from 2000 - 6000rpm. The larger cam will peak higher, but may not have as much at 1500rpm, as the smaller camshaft, as it is not as efficient at that rpm point and this is due to valve overlap, valve timing events, etc, etc.

To understand cams and how they work, you simply have to do some reading - Comp Cams has some good information and there are many other sites where camshafts and what they do for an engine are discussed.

cheers

[EfiJy]

So seeing as my car is at a renowned workshop and a forum sponsor this is something i should not have to worry about?

Not sure how to answer that question other than to speak to them first and get a guarantee (agreement) from them that a cammed car car should not jerk if it is tuned correctly. That way they are obligated to give you the tune you paid good money for.

It's obvious that many owners are accepting of an engine's jerky performance following a cam upgrade but I personally wouldn't be happy because it feels crap when you experience it. I never mod my car but I have mates with modded and cammed LSX cars.

[vitob2006]

if its at reputable workshop organise with them to drive their cars. and when ur happy with the one of the cars that u drive and the way it sounds, say to them u want that set up exactly. Get a list of everything they are going to do and the price break down. Then just do it. Dont worry about all the dyno figure crap that everyone talks about just judge the car on the total setup that suits u. Thats why u need to drive as many cars with different set ups to find out what suits u. Sorry mate it may sound like a lot of effort but u need to do this to be sure, because ur the one that needs to live with it. Also another reason is the workshop will know exactly what to do.....an when its finished if the car is not exactly what u expect then u can say 'HEY why isn't it like the one that I drove because that is how I wanted it.' But with a reputable workshop u wont have this problem because they have done hundreds of sets like the one u have picked. Forums are good for general info and education but nothing substitutes experiencing total set ups first hand.....driving them. good luck mate

[Speedy Gonzales]

Depends if its a manual or auto, with a manual using the same cam, can get away with more since the revs are controlled with your left shoe.

An auto might need to also have a converter swap otherwise the car will want to push forward, meaning having to push the brake pedal harder when stopped.

Is the car an auto by any chance?

[swingtan]

1. Driving with cam, a close friend of mine has told me that the drive becomes some what harsh and he doesnt like to drive in higher gears because it tends to jerk the car, and this was the case until he upgraded his diff gears, not sure if i believe this or not so im after other opinions.

Wrong. Well, if you are going in absolutes, it's still wrong. Any time you alter the way that air flows through the motor, you alter the motor characteristics. Unless you are talking about cam shafts on the very upper edge, the motor should run fine when cruising.

No offense to your friend, but you should really talk to the people that do this sort of work for a living. The forum sponsors give good advice, no only because they know what the do, but also because they can't afford not to.



2. Now i know cam sizes have been discussed hundreds of thousands of times but for someone who isnt to mechanically literate they kind of mean nothing to me especially with all the 2**/**/** jargon. What i do kno is most workshops(sponsored) seem to have stage cams. There is no difference in price but they go from stage 1 through to stage 4. Can someone please inform me from an outsiders point what the difference is in the stages.

This is quite hard to answer, as different "stages" can mean different things at different shops. For any given shop though......

The easiest way to describe the stages is



Mild--1--2--3--4--5--Wild


You should check with each individual shop on the exact expectations of each stage.




3. It is the only car i own, im happy with the power it has but would love to have a cam. What other thoughts and considerations should i have? It is the first V8 i've ever owned and so obviously not sure what to expect.

Again, it all depends on expectations and goals. Talk to the shops, explain what you want in the end and plan with them on how to get there.



4. Future issues/drama's. What could go wrong? Is there any extra maintenance, precautionary duties that need to be performed once aa bigger cam is installed other then the normal things we already have to do?

Most will say that with a cam change, you should at least put in some good valve springs. The idea being that the stock units are only just OK for the stock cam, if the engine is older, then the springs will be a tad tired. So putting in a set of higher spec units is advisable. You should also get the engine tune optimised for the changes made. Anything else is dependant on the cam specs chosen, again, talk to the shop about an "optimal package".

Simon.

[BOOGER]

How about oil changes after a cam change. Should I just stick with the 15,000km service intervals of should I do an oil change half way? I know there are people that do it anyway because they're pedantic about it so I not really interested in it from that point of few just from a safety and longevity aspect.

[DCV1NU]

How about oil changes after a cam change. Should I just stick with the 15,000km service intervals of should I do an oil change half way? I know there are people that do it anyway because they're pedantic about it so I not really interested in it from that point of few just from a safety and longevity aspect.

I never follow the 15,000km service, i always get the oil & filter done every 5,000kms even more so with an aftermarket cam for longevity of the engine.

[STATIE]

3. It is the only car i own, im happy with the power it has but would love to have a cam. What other thoughts and considerations should i have? It is the first V8 i've ever owned and so obviously not sure what to expect.



If you are happy with the power then why do you want a cam? Doesn't make sense.

2 things - either get a really small one 220 or less or forget the cam entirely & just get a tune.

Save yourself from dissapointment.

[BOOGER]

5,000km isn't being over cautious is it? I just don't want to be doing oil changes for the sake of it. At the same time I want to do the right thing by the engine. At the moment I'm about the 7,000km mark since I had the cam installed and I'm starting to notice the sowing machine noise a little more than usual. Then the whole which oil to use debate to consider......

[DCV1NU]

5,000km isn't being over cautious is it? I just don't want to be doing oil changes for the sake of it. At the same time I want to do the right thing by the engine. At the moment I'm about the 7,000km mark since I had the cam installed and I'm starting to notice the sowing machine noise a little more than usual. Then the whole which oil to use debate to consider......

No i dont think so, in my book i think its better to be safe than sorry especially when you've got a modified engine. I currently use Castrol Edge 5w30 but will go up to the next one, have a look at this thread its very helpful - http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=97841&highlight=ve+engine+oil.

[smokey777]

If you are happy with the power then why do you want a cam? Doesn't make sense.

2 things - either get a really small one 220 or less or forget the cam entirely & just get a tune.

Save yourself from dissapointment.
Whys it dissapointment? i was very pleased with my baby cam

[STATIE]

Whys it dissapointment? i was very pleased with my baby cam

No doubt you are - probably because you got a power gain - this guy is already happy with the power from the car - I'm asking why bother camming it then?

As he is worried about what effects a cam will have on his car - I am saying that sticking with a 220(ish) or less cam - any downside will be at least minimised.
Baby cams have their place as do Turbo Killers - this bloke just sounds like a baby cam sort of guy going on what he is worried about - either that or leave it stock & maybe get a tune, pipes & CAI & leave it at that.

Capish?

[StoneX]

I have a baby cam which is quite "lopey" when cold. If I idle down my street, so I don't bother my neighbours, the "loping" does make the car jerk... I can also feel it when the car is warm doing 60km/h in 6th gear (auto) which I think is about 1000RPM. It was tuned by a reputable sponsor.

[STATIE]

I have a baby cam which is very "lopey" when cold. If I idle down my street, so I don't bother my neighbours, the "loping" does make the car jerk... I can also feel it when the car is warm doing 60km/h in 6th gear (auto) which I think is about 1000RPM. It was tuned by a reputable sponsor.

How big? A "baby" cam used to be something between 210 & 220 ish.
Anything bigger than that isn't what I would consider a "baby" cam.
No doubt you have a stock converter as well?

Sounds like it could do with a touch up either way.

[BOOGER]

No i dont think so, in my book i think its better to be safe than sorry especially when you've got a modified engine. I currently use Castrol Edge 5w30 but will go up to the next one, have a look at this thread its very helpful - http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=97841&highlight=ve+engine+oil.

Thanks for your input mate, I'll have a read of that thread and maybe attempt an oil change this week. I haven't tried one on these engines before but I used to do them between services on my WRX when I had it.

[Raptor6L]

Just to throw in my 2c, I reckon the OP should have a chat with Steve at Oztrack (sponsor). From everything i've read about his Stealth cam, it seems that it could well be what he is searching for? Aside from that he does some quality tunes and a pretty knowledgeable guy who doesn't mind a chat.

Statie - it's "Capisce" dude. :)

Cheers
Chris

[EfiJy]

I have a baby cam which is quite "lopey" when cold. If I idle down my street, so I don't bother my neighbours, the "loping" does make the car jerk... I can also feel it when the car is warm doing 60km/h in 6th gear (auto) which I think is about 1000RPM. It was tuned by a reputable sponsor.

I beg to disagree. Lopey is not "jerky". Lopey is due to the cam profile. Jerky is due to a poor tune. You can have a docile lopey cammed car without being jerky. You can also have a jerky car with a mild cam...... because it isn't properly tuned.

If you've got a jerky tune due to a cam upgrade, get it fixed!

[STATIE]

Statie - it's "Capisce" dude. :)

Haha - yeh but I couldn't spell undustand either.:jester:

[BECAUZ]

Depends if its a manual or auto, with a manual using the same cam, can get away with more since the revs are controlled with your left shoe.

An auto might need to also have a converter swap otherwise the car will want to push forward, meaning having to push the brake pedal harder when stopped.

Is the car an auto by any chance?

Nope, its a manual.




Most will say that with a cam change, you should at least put in some good valve springs. The idea being that the stock units are only just OK for the stock cam, if the engine is older, then the springs will be a tad tired. So putting in a set of higher spec units is advisable. You should also get the engine tune optimised for the changes made. Anything else is dependant on the cam specs chosen, again, talk to the shop about an "optimal package".

Simon.

Engine has done 33,000Kms, will ask for these, thanks for the heads up. Some good advice cheers.


No doubt you are - probably because you got a power gain - this guy is already happy with the power from the car - I'm asking why bother camming it then?

As he is worried about what effects a cam will have on his car - I am saying that sticking with a 220(ish) or less cam - any downside will be at least minimised.
Baby cams have their place as do Turbo Killers - this bloke just sounds like a baby cam sort of guy going on what he is worried about - either that or leave it stock & maybe get a tune, pipes & CAI & leave it at that.

Capish?

More power is always good. the ultimate reason for wanting a cam is that I just absolutely love the sound of a cammed up V8.

The car has a dus otr, difillipo 4 into 1, difillipo 2.5 inch exhaust, and obviously a mafless tune. First upgrade was the otr and that put a massive smile on my face, after that the exhaust and i mean after like 6 months after. Its been about 8 months since the last upgrade and it really feels like time to consider such a move.

Im just a little worried because im not sure what to expect in the long run, hence these questions. I know there are always variables but just the basics. I am happy with the power yes, but more responsiveness and an increase of power i would not be complaining about.

Statie you talk about a baby cam being no bigger than a 220, in your opinon what are the different stages after the baby cam? What is the turbo killer? Just a monster of a cam?

[boggers007]

Nope, its a manual.



Engine has done 33,000Kms, will ask for these, thanks for the heads up. Some good advice cheers.



More power is always good. the ultimate reason for wanting a cam is that I just absolutely love the sound of a cammed up V8.

The car has a dus otr, difillipo 4 into 1, difillipo 2.5 inch exhaust, and obviously a mafless tune. First upgrade was the otr and that put a massive smile on my face, after that the exhaust and i mean after like 6 months after. Its been about 8 months since the last upgrade and it really feels like time to consider such a move.

Im just a little worried because im not sure what to expect in the long run, hence these questions. I know there are always variables but just the basics. I am happy with the power yes, but more responsiveness and an increase of power i would not be complaining about.

Statie you talk about a baby cam being no bigger than a 220, in your opinon what are the different stages after the baby cam? What is the turbo killer? Just a monster of a cam?


GM Motorsport Turbo Killer Cam is 237/242 so its a big stick

[StoneX]

How big? A "baby" cam used to be something between 210 & 220 ish.
Anything bigger than that isn't what I would consider a "baby" cam.
No doubt you have a stock converter as well?

Sounds like it could do with a touch up either way.
219/223 113 LSA and about .580 lift, not sure on exact lift. Yep, stock convert, that was the reason for going smaller than most people who get cams.

She's going in for a touch up this afternoon :)

[smokey777]

Ya mines a 224x224 612 lift so not big but a good street cam.

[BECAUZ]

Ok so its getting closer and learning a little bit more.

If i was to leave the stock heads and lifters would it be fine for say a mildish cam say around the 220 - 224 mark?

I'd prefer not to spend more on changing the heads and lifters unless its a complete must do. Have heard of people having issues with shattering the lifters and that the stock lifters in the VE are pretty crap.

[boggers007]

Ok so its getting closer and learning a little bit more.

If i was to leave the stock heads and lifters would it be fine for say a mildish cam say around the 220 - 224 mark?

I'd prefer not to spend more on changing the heads and lifters unless its a complete must do. Have heard of people having issues with shattering the lifters and that the stock lifters in the VE are pretty crap.

Stock heads are fine but what type of engine do you have, L98 or L76 with AFM? If its L76 then you gotta get that shit out lol

[smokey777]

BECAUZ my L98 has stock lifters with my 224x224 612lift 113LSA just have uprated springs & still use stock chain all well after 2yrs

[ADAM 26]

for something you drive evey day there is no need for a stage 32 mega cam.

the bigger cams make there power up high in the rpm. which, in the street you will hardly get to use. they are boggy down low which is where 90% of you driving will be.

a smaller cam you will benifit more from if its on the street everyday, you will enjoy the freight train torque more than the out right power. also, depending on specs, there will normally be less strain on the valve train compaird to the big lift and long duration of the the stage 32 mega cam.

not sure exactly why you are wanting to do the swap, but if you want the big lumpy sound, but with small-mid cam performance and easy on the valve train, id recomend the cam thats in my ute at the moment. 219/233 @109 comp cams thumpr cam.

[smokey777]

Ya adams right mine has 302rwkw & best bit is its 690nm not massive but good NMs to have

[BECAUZ]

Stock heads are fine but what type of engine do you have, L98 or L76 with AFM? If its L76 then you gotta get that shit out lol

mines M6 L98


BECAUZ my L98 has stock lifters with my 224x224 612lift 113LSA just have uprated springs & still use stock chain all well after 2yrs

Thanks mate, was a little bit worried coz i didnt want to do a rebuild a few months later especially if it was because i scavenged by not paying extra for heads and lifters.

[BECAUZ]

for something you drive evey day there is no need for a stage 32 mega cam.

the bigger cams make there power up high in the rpm. which, in the street you will hardly get to use. they are boggy down low which is where 90% of you driving will be.

a smaller cam you will benifit more from if its on the street everyday, you will enjoy the freight train torque more than the out right power. also, depending on specs, there will normally be less strain on the valve train compaird to the big lift and long duration of the the stage 32 mega cam.

not sure exactly why you are wanting to do the swap, but if you want the big lumpy sound, but with small-mid cam performance and easy on the valve train, id recomend the cam thats in my ute at the moment. 219/233 @109 comp cams thumpr cam.


adam your pretty much spot on. I want my V8 to sound like a V8. It has the 2.5inch difillipo straight thru with difilipo 4 into 1 extractors. Sounds mint at the moment but a little to quiet unless you get up her.

I want the lumpy sound but i also want it to drive nicely so i think your specs are just about right. If i was to go a 222/XXX @ XXX will it be similar to what you have? Not sure what the workshop i'm taking it to uses for a stage 2 but they are a forum sponsor and refer to their cams as either stage 1, 2 or 3 and a 4 being for blown or turbos.

With your cam adam is it loud? Is it possible to get a sound clip?

[boggers007]

mines M6 L98



Thanks mate, was a little bit worried coz i didnt want to do a rebuild a few months later especially if it was because i scavenged by not paying extra for heads and lifters.

alot of the well known shops over here a few being sponsors dont replace the lifters on an L98 only an L76 if thats what you have. Others will say your playing with fire but at the end of the day you may be one of the lucky ones or unlucky ones.

[BECAUZ]

alot of the well known shops over here a few being sponsors dont replace the lifters on an L98 only an L76 if thats what you have. Others will say your playing with fire but at the end of the day you may be one of the lucky ones or unlucky ones.

so basically just go for a 22X cam and just cross my fingers that the lifters hold?

[boggers007]

so basically just go for a 22X cam and just cross my fingers that the lifters hold?

pretty much, its the not the worlds most aggressive cam but yeh. If you can stretch the extra few hundred for new lifters it will give you insurance that you want destroy one from just driving around.

[ADAM 26]

so basically just go for a 22X cam and just cross my fingers that the lifters hold?


my cam is VERY low lift. only .550 on the exhaust, and because it makes max power at aroun 6300, there is no need to rev the crap out of it, so iv chosen to stay with stock valve springs and stock lifters. so iv done about 30000km and had not one drama. it has been up on limiter more than once, has been on a dyno and iv never touched it.

its loud, but with your exhaust it would be a bit quieter than mine id think. mine is a 2.5 inch system with hsv headers and hi flow cats.

this is the idle. YouTube - ‪Ve ss l98 with thumper cam‬‏

[BECAUZ]

Love how that sounds.... thats what im after, not too crazy but not to subtle.....

Hows its driveability?

[smokey777]

this is mine just idling

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo257/smokeybigpond/th_VESSIDLE224x224cam.jpg (http://s381.photobucket.com/albums/oo257/smokeybigpond/?action=view&current=VESSIDLE224x224cam.mp4)

[ADAM 26]

Love how that sounds.... thats what im after, not too crazy but not to subtle.....

Hows its driveability?


it drives great, just get somone how knows there stuff to tune it. i drive it everyday, rain, hail or shine, use it to tow, still with the stock stall. yours would be no worrys being manual.

[BECAUZ]

Yea i think im convinced and will be going with something in the 220 range.

Smokey that sounds tops mate, what exhaust do you have in the ute?

[smokey777]

thanks mate, it is pacey tri-ys, highflow cats (dont know brand) & 2.5" x-force catback. its actually a bit deeper sounding now.

[clubbie]

Becauz

Just wanting to point out to you that your tuner can have the car idle smooth or choppy/rough depending on what you want.

When I first got the cam and tune the car would idle rough (my choice) so it sounded good and tough. Was a pain in th as$ for an everyday car and used a lot of fuel idling in peak traffic. Took the car back and had the idle smoothed out. Still small lope at idle but almost undetecable with aircon on and in drive (auto obviously). Comp 216/220 on 114. Didn't want a stall converter.

If I was doing it again I would go larger cam with either a manual or stalled auto as I do not have to drive in peak hour traffic now.

[vzmaloor8#150]

As far as reliability an longevity, I had my cam an all the other bolt ons fitted at 32000kms, now it's at 190000kms an still going hard never misses a beat. Constantly hitting the limiter I only do the oil every 10000kms , but I clock that up every 2 months. The cam is a 238/240 with 620ish durations an a 114 lsa. I can't complain it has nvr let me down.