Shonky Fuel Pumps!!!

[super coach]

Ok I'm going to start from the beginning. Before I had the Monaro I always used to fill my Commodore with Mobil 95, never had no problem. Bought the Monaro put Mobil 95 in it but didn’t feel much so moved to the Mobil Synergy 98, but I had to travel further to get it as the Mobil near my place didn’t stock it, so I started putting in Shell V Power 98 and that’s all I have been using.

I run my tank down till the low fuel light comes on and then I fill her right up. I noticed 3 weeks ago I filled her right up until it started clicking. No probs paid for the fuel started her up needle only went to the increment before full. Thought it might be just air, but after the 4km drive home it still didn’t move so I left it till the following night. Started her up and the needle went to the same spot. Went back to the same Shell servo used the same pump and straight away it started clicking, couldn’t get any more fuel in.

So I left it and ran down the tank until it needed to be filled again, but this time I went to another Shell servo 8km away from home, filled her up no problem. Ran that tank down and went back to this same Shell servo but used a different pump and started to fill her up and within 1 litre the nozzle started to click straight away! I was like WTF!?!? I know I have no petrol, so I continued with this for about 3 minutes outing the nozzle in and out before I gave up and went to another pump at the same servo. Filled her up no problems needle on the fuel gauge went to Full.

Ran that fuel tank out went to another Shell servo 10km from my house filled up a full tank no problems at all needle went to full. I started to think maybe my car was the problem maybe something to do with the fuel sender? Anyway went for a long country drive came back and had half a tank left of fuel, so went back to the first Shell servo in this story the one which is closest to me and filled her up until it started to click. By the way I used the same pump as I did first time around in the story. Got back to the car started her up needle only went to the increment before full, and I was WTF again!?!?! I know I had 5 boxes of wine in the boot but surely it wouldn’t impact the fuel gauge that much.

So then tonight petrol was still cheap so decided to pull into the Shell servo that is 8km away from my house the one which I mentioned second in this story. I used same pump on my very first visit and it started clicking just after 1 litre, I put up with this for 5 litres before enough was enough and I couldn’t be asses. Paid for the fuel started her up it only moved up 1 increment. NOW I was really pissed and annoyed.

So I thought I would stop in on the way home to the Shell which is closest to my house and is only 4km away from the Shell servo I just filled up at. When I got there I went to a totally different pump and what do you know I pumped in 13 litres of fuel but I only travelled 4km!?!?! (see pictures below of the two examples)

I then went to start her up and she wouldn’t start just turned over and back fired!!!! Took about two goes to get her started and she ran fine.

I don’t know what to do I think it’s the petrol bowser and not my car. Not sure if my fuel filler may affect the nozzle as I have a VZ Monaro which fills from the top as apposed from the side and I always have used the V Power and have experienced these problems.

I will be taking this up with Shell Australia and the offices of Trade and Measures.



http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/servo1.jpg

instrument cluster as filling up first tonight. note compare distance travelled and fuel used with the second instrument photo

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/servo12.jpg

docket from first fill up showing how many litres went in

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/servo2.jpg

photo after the second fill up. note distance and fuel used compared to first instrument photo

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/servo22.jpg

docket showing that i used 13 litres after travelling 4 kms cos thats how much i put in.... yeah right!!!

[Tony66]

:confused: I am so confused?!:confused:

[NeishaVESS]

Have you ever thought to try out a servo like BP? And use the Ultimate? Or Caltex and just see if maybe it's Shell pumps your car has issues with? Because obviously it does..

I don't know why your having issues but maybe your fuel tank breather is blocked?

Shaun

[sikhabib]

Did you notice what angle the car was on as this will effect how much you can fill the tank

[whitels1ss]

It sounds to me as though you have a problem with your car's fuel filler or fuel gauge.:confused:
I am confused how you can blame the fuel station.:confused:

[KrisR]

My VZ has been doing the exact same thing. I think it has to do with the float level and some shit in the tank stopping it from getting full travel. Mine used to go right up just past full and display about 530km to empty, now i'm about 1/8th off full and only get like 480km to empty.

As for the bowser not pumping in after a litre or so, i've had that aswell. I think it has to do with the anti syphon valve in the filler tube.

I've been meaning to pull my tank out and try and find the cause but the new missurs has not given me a moment to myself so i can play with the car... Once I do get it out and if I find something i'll let you know, but its not the bowser doing it to you man. Curious if any other VZ or US/GTO owners have had the same thing...

[Peter B - CV8]

Sounds like the particular servo pump might be discharging fuel quicker than what your filler/tank can cope with - triggering the cut off switch.
I always have trouble filling mine to the absolute brim (ie before a long trip). The last 10 litres or so has to be drip fed in. It's a bit of a pain - but certainly more preferable to having fuel spew out of the filler all over the paint work & myself.
If you're concerned about it, then it might be worthwhile tracing the filler & other fuel hoses & looking for any kinks etc that might be causing an obstruction.

[super coach]

Thanks for your suggestion so far guys. NeishaVESS I have filled up with Mobil and BP before both full tanks of 56 litres and didn’t have a problem.

Sikhabib the car has been on a flat surface never filled up on a angle at any of the servos I go to

Whitels1ss the only reason I say this is that how come two pumps at the same servo will start cutting out after only 1 litre being put into the car, yet when I reach across the side of the bowser without even moving the car and use the other pump it works fine and fills her right up with out cutting out until the tank is full? I have kept track of how much fuel I need to put into the car with my receipts and to make a full tank it is around 56 litres, so I know it cant be my fuel gauge as it does go to full all the time unless the nozzle of the fuel pump starts clicking like mad from the beginning.

KrisR thanks for confirming this as I thought I must be the only one. When I have an empty tank I will ask my mechanic if he has time to have a look at this with me, is this a known problem with the VZ Monaro’s?

I’m not saying it’s totally the fuel stations fault or mine im just trying to nut out the possibilities and see if I can rectify the problem. I just find it bezzar that some nozzles will work yet others wont at the same servo, and whether or not I should contact Shell and advise them.

[KrisR]

Just FYI too, my car exhibits the same random behavior on refills when using Caltex or BP servos. I have not used Shell for years and don't intend on using the fuel again..... And I have no servo loyalty, i.e. i'll fill up at either a Caltex or BP when I need to so in my case I don't think its a specific bowser flowing more but more the possibility filler tube is too long and is kinking or the valve in the filler tube plays up sometimes.

[QldKev]

Our older non commodore (96 corolla) has the same type of issue when filling. We found that the angle you point the fuel hose on is the cause. If it is pointing at the bend in the filler the fuel splashes back enough to trigger the pump to stop. Now we know it's not an issue, but until we realised what was going on :vpo:

Worth a try anyway.

QldKev

[Jamolad]

Our older non commodore (96 corolla) has the same type of issue when filling. We found that the angle you point the fuel hose on is the cause. If it is pointing at the bend in the filler the fuel splashes back enough to trigger the pump to stop. Now we know it's not an issue, but until we realised what was going on :vpo:

Worth a try anyway.

QldKev

Same issue with Mrs 2000 Lancer - anyone who borrows it says they can't get fuel into it.



[snip]...but the new missurs has not given me a moment to myself so i can play with the car... Once I do get it out...[snip]

Anyone else do a double-take at this bit? :jester:

[whitels1ss]

My VZ has been doing the exact same thing. I think it has to do with the float level and some shit in the tank stopping it from getting full travel. Mine used to go right up just past full and display about 530km to empty, now i'm about 1/8th off full and only get like 480km to empty.

As for the bowser not pumping in after a litre or so, i've had that aswell. I think it has to do with the anti syphon valve in the filler tube.

I've been meaning to pull my tank out and try and find the cause but the new missurs has not given me a moment to myself so i can play with the car... Once I do get it out and if I find something i'll let you know, but its not the bowser doing it to you man. Curious if any other VZ or US/GTO owners have had the same thing...
Another VZ Monaro with the long filler neck having the same problems filling.....
Maybe it is a common problem to the car? :confused:

[super coach]

Ive taken a photo of the inside of my boot which i will post up soon. i take it there is an aluminium pipe going to the fuel tank that is wrapped in rubber? as this is what I can see.

If it is a problem how come it hasnt been bought up before and made mention to Holden? the car is moving into its 6th year.

i find it annoying filling up only to find the nozzle is clicking so i drive off to another pump in the hope i can fill my car up with out it taking an hour. the pump i used last night worked well, so when i need to fill up will use it again. if the problem persists will move to Mobil and try my luck there and see if it makes a difference.

[the big fist]

VZ GTO here, Exact same problem from random pumps. I always use Caltex though due to fuel card.

[super coach]

I did a search on google which bought up two old threads on this forum. seems its has been a issue for some from the get-go. one has even mentioned that Shell causes him problems. I feel like contacting Holden and asking them what can you do about it.

how many litres should be going in from an empty tank with the light on? i think i manage about 56 litres


http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=58034&highlight=VZ+Monaro+fuel+filling

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=127713&highlight=VZ+Monaro+fuel+filling&page=2

[super coach]

as I said in my above post, I pulled my carpet out and took some photos of the fuel filler. it looks long enough and it enters the tank about half way...... thoughts?

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/IMG_2746.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l225/supercoach24/IMG_2744.jpg

[Peter B - CV8]

Geez that's well & truly crushed !!! Is the filler neck soft rubber or a harder material ??? My first thoughts would be a faulty filler cap (ie not venting properly).

[KrisR]

That outer cover is just an outer cover, its not the actual filler hose. If you feel inside that cover you'll see there's like a 20mm hose inside it plus a solid metal valve inline too. The outer skin of the tank is a plastic cover.

Have a look at this PDF file and it'll sort of give you an idea of what the fuel system looks like - http://www.lingenfelter.com/sites/lingenfelter.managecontent.com/files/L710660504%20GTO%20fuel%20pump%20upgrade%20v4.41.p df

[swingtan]

A few points that might be worth thinking about....


All petrol station pumps have an automatic cutoff to help prevent over filling the petrol tank. In the "good old days" you cold lock the pump on and do other stuff while the car was filled, like wash the windscreen etc. People would get distracted and forget the pump was running, resulting in raw fuel spilling out of the tank. So an additional port was added to the pump nozzle that senses sudden changes in air pressure at the nozzle tip. It then shuts off the trigger to prevent an over fill. Later, the lock on mechanism was disabled so you have to stand there and hold the nozzle.
The pressure sensor is triggered by the escaping air from the filling fuel tank. As you fill the tank, the air in the tank needs to be let out. At the start of the fill, the escaping air comes out at a slower rate. this is because there are additional vents in the tank to let the air out. Once the tank is full though, the final fill only goes into the filler tube and all the air must come back past the nozzle. This is what triggers the shut off.
ULP uses a smaller sized filler than the old leaded petrol fillers. To still allow sufficient fuel to flow in, the nozzle on the pump leave less room for air to escape from the filler pipe. This can lead to the presser sensor triggering a pump shut off sooner than expected if the nozzle is held at the wrong angle ( to block the filler pipe more ) or if the flow rate off the bowser pump is too high. Note that some servos have wised up to the fact that running a very slow pump rate results in more fuel sales as the overfill trigger will not stop the fuel delivery until the tank is very full....


As with all things mechanical, different pumps / nozzles will work differently. some trigger early, some trigger late. If you get a nozzle that triggers early, just try the following...


Alter the angle of the nozzle in the filler tube. Try lifting it a bit or rotating the handle. You may find a position where it's happy to keep pumping.
Start off slowly by only half depressing the trigger. Once things stabilise, you may be able to open it up further, or you may need to stick with the slower fill.
If every bowser seems to cause issues, have the breather lines checked in the car. They may have become blocked or squashed and are not allowing the air in the tank to escape properly.


There still may be faulty bowser that keep shutting off. I know I've left servo's with only $5 worth of fuel as the bowser was a pain or just running way too slow. I make sure I let the operators know why I only got $5 and not $100 worth of fuel and it's usually fixed fairly quickly.

Simon.

[Justin_wh]

And your fuel cap will jam the handle on sufficiently that you don't have to hold it.

[awesome _vzss]

I have had this same issue happen to me a couple of times.
I'll be filling up clicks a a couple of times and when I start it up to drive of I notice its not 100% full strange really considering different servo's and pumps.

[macca33]

Just depress the fuel pump trigger slowly and not too far. Clearly, the splashback from the fuel delivery rate is causing the pump to shut-off each time - it happens on some cars. Slow is the go!!!

[super coach]

thanks for all the posts and tips guys. To let everyone know yes i do go slow which is why i hold up the rest of the line. but doesnt bother me they too can look at awesome car hahaha

i will try my servo one more time using the pump that didnt play up and will see how I go. it cant be my cars filler as it works 80% no probs

[KrisR]

I'm going to give this a bump because i've now worked out why my fuel gauge in my particular car was acting up and not reading full when infact the tank was absolutely chocker block full! and it had nothing to do with the swirl pot, sender, anything.... It was in the tune :(, specifically {F0507} and {F0508}.

Broken original fuel level curve:
http://www.reberger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/VZMonaroFuelGaugeBroken.jpg

Fixed fuel level curve:
http://www.reberger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/VZMonaroFuelGaugeFixed.jpg

I had downloaded a stock "2006" Monaro CV8Z EFI Live tune off Tune File Depot for a laugh to compare bits and pieces to my custom tune and sure enough, the later cars Holden had fixed and issued a new calibration with this new level curve. I think it's apart of a new instrument panel cluster upgrade (with Tech 2) aswell, but I simply flashed in the Fuel System segment into my car and BAM! - I went to fill the car up and at the first click of the pump I went paid for the fuel, jumped in the car and fired it up... the needle read full and my distance to empty went straight up to about 540km's!!!

If you guys with VZ Monaros have dicky fuel level gauges and have stock tunes, i'd say go back to Holden and get your PCM updated. If you have a custom tune with EFI Live, grab the .tun from TFD and update the Fuel System segment of your tune or find someone with an LS1B stream to do it for you.

HTH.
Kris