do you need to dial in a cam?....

[stupotarnie]

Hi guys, Getting ready to have a go at fitting a cam into my ls1, I am going with 228 230 112 comp cam and have not tried anything like this before. What I would like to know is do I have to dial it in or just go dot to dot? I am not very clued up with mechanics but would love some advice on doing this install. Are there any does and donts that you guys may have experienced with fitting your own cams? Any tips would be great..Cheers guys....

[vessls3]

dont drop the lifters or youll be pulling the engine out i would dial the cam in for sure at least you no the cam is working as per the specs

[h41ry]

need an adjustable cam gear to be able to dial in

[colt75]

need an adjustable cam gear to be able to dial in

this.

takes alot of dyno time as well.

[macca33]

Not too sure you understand what 'dialling' a cam in means colt.

A short descritption would be that the cam, with the use of an adjustable timing chain / set, is set up to ensure that the intake / exhaust valves are opening / closing at the exact point (or as close as possible to the exact point) the cam is designed to open / close the valves. The adjustable timing chain / set enables one to advance or retard the camshaft position (angle) in relation to the angle of the crankshaft, to achieve the design-specified timing (valve) events.

Soem of the camshafts are ground slightly off-spec and as such, to get the most out of your combination, it is advisable to dial the cam in correctly, checking valve events, to optimise the set-up to ge tthe most from it.

There is a good explanation on the Comp Cams website.

To the OP - many do simply install 'straight-up' or dot-to-dot, but it isn't the proper way to install a camshaft as you cannot measure whether the grind is off-spec.

cheers

[SVNLTR]

need an adjustable cam gear to be able to dial in

yes

because it shows that you are trying to find or see if the cam card matches your numbers on the dial gauge and wheel

if you can find true top dead centre you know how to dial a cam in.....thats the hardest bit...................

[stupotarnie]

Thankyou all for your replys guys. Mmmmmm...Certainly gets me thinking i might have to get it professionally installed. I just dont want to pay good money and have a mechanic take short cuts either.Also does anyone know how this particular cam performs If I installed it dot to dot. Just in case I do it that way myself...?

[boggers007]

Thankyou all for your replys guys. Mmmmmm...Certainly gets me thinking i might have to get it professionally installed. I just dont want to pay good money and have a mechanic take short cuts either.Also does anyone know how this particular cam performs If I installed it dot to dot. Just in case I do it that way myself...?

That all depends on how the grind is. As has been stated before if slighty off then the cam will perform different dot to dot compared to one ground exactly as stated. Its abit of a hit and miss thing without checking. So that question could be answered as how longs a piece of string if you ask me.

[daztheclipper]

Hey guys just a question, doesn't dialing in a cam also involve a dial indicator and the taking of specific measurements to make sure that it matches everything the cam grind is meant to be ie: lift, duration etc??


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Daz

[peter b]

Hey guys just a question, doesn't dialing in a cam also involve a dial indicator and the taking of specific measurements to make sure that it matches everything the cam grind is meant to be ie: lift, duration etc??


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Daz

Very correct. Lets just say you dont dial it in and just slide it in dot to dot how do you know the camshaft is ground as per the specs and not say 6 degrees retarded. Have had a flat tappet cam as far as 8 degrees retarded from spec before. Always best to check

[daztheclipper]

Very correct. Lets just say you dont dial it in and just slide it in dot to dot how do you know the camshaft is ground as per the specs and not say 6 degrees retarded. Have had a flat tappet cam as far as 8 degrees retarded from spec before. Always best to check

Yeh that's how I have always seen it done, hence dialling in, I would recommend getting it dialed in properly then at least you know the cam is working exactly to the specs it's ground to. Which in turn allows timing etc to be set correctly. Thanks Peter b I have had a few cams dialed in, and this has always involved the use of a dial indicator etc so while not a mechanics butthole I can certainly vote for the virtues of dialing in a cam properly. ;)


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Daz

[vyls1wa]

so who sells em or wants to lend one to me for a weekend

[macca33]

Comp Cams has a very good cam-degreeing kit, with all you need. You can buy it through any Comp Cams supplier, here or abroad, I'd imagine.

cheers

[Xjas]

Since LS engines dont have timing marks on the balancer you would need to remove a head so you could accurately find TDC number 1. Without knowing where TDC is you cant accurately dial a cam in. You also need to get a dial indicator down to a solid (not the hydraulic centre) part of the lifter.
If you buy a reputable brand of cam for a cam only LS engine you should be able to put it in dot to dot and be fine.
If your building an all out pro stocker where every single horsepower counts you would check the cam lobe dial in on every cylinder.
Also, if you check a cam and doesnt match the specs you need to contact the cam supplier and have words, an adjustable cam gear is for advancing or retarding the cam timing on purpose to get the most out of a given engine/cam combo not for correcting a poorly ground cam.

[daztheclipper]

Since LS engines dont have timing marks on the balancer you would need to remove a head so you could accurately find TDC number 1. Without knowing where TDC is you cant accurately dial a cam in. You also need to get a dial indicator down to a solid (not the hydraulic centre) part of the lifter.
If you buy a reputable brand of cam for a cam only LS engine you should be able to put it in dot to dot and be fine.
If your building an all out pro stocker where every single horsepower counts you would check the cam lobe dial in on every cylinder.
Also, if you check a cam and doesnt match the specs you need to contact the cam supplier and have words, an adjustable cam gear is for advancing or retarding the cam timing on purpose to get the most out of a given engine/cam combo not for correcting a poorly ground cam.

So dialing a cam in is not necessary anymore?


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Daz

[peter b]

Since LS engines dont have timing marks on the balancer you would need to remove a head so you could accurately find TDC number 1. Without knowing where TDC is you cant accurately dial a cam in. You also need to get a dial indicator down to a solid (not the hydraulic centre) part of the lifter.
If you buy a reputable brand of cam for a cam only LS engine you should be able to put it in dot to dot and be fine.
If your building an all out pro stocker where every single horsepower counts you would check the cam lobe dial in on every cylinder.
Also, if you check a cam and doesnt match the specs you need to contact the cam supplier and have words, an adjustable cam gear is for advancing or retarding the cam timing on purpose to get the most out of a given engine/cam combo not for correcting a poorly ground cam.

So you mean to tell me you can't find tdc on an LS just because it doesn't have marks? wow makes me wonder how the hell I did it then hey hmm maybe a tdc stop cleverly inserted into number 1 spark plug hole hmmm.
In regards to needing a solid lifter for dialing in a cam please tell me why you need a solid lifter as with a dial gauge what preload are you putting on a hydraulic lifter. You use a solid for checking piston to valve clearance but can also get around it by using check springs which are just strong enough to hold the valves up
Also my cam is half a degree out on intake and 1.5 degrees out on exhaust should I be talking to my cam supplier considering the differences can also come from differing things such as timing chain kit or even the block. The adjustment in the gears is for getting the timing where you want it to be and if that means correcting any inaccuracies then so be it.

[Xjas]

So you mean to tell me you can't find tdc on an LS just because it doesn't have marks? wow makes me wonder how the hell I did it then hey hmm maybe a tdc stop cleverly inserted into number 1 spark plug hole hmmm.
In regards to needing a solid lifter for dialing in a cam please tell me why you need a solid lifter as with a dial gauge what preload are you putting on a hydraulic lifter. You use a solid for checking piston to valve clearance but can also get around it by using check springs which are just strong enough to hold the valves up
Also my cam is half a degree out on intake and 1.5 degrees out on exhaust should I be talking to my cam supplier considering the differences can also come from differing things such as timing chain kit or even the block. The adjustment in the gears is for getting the timing where you want it to be and if that means correcting any inaccuracies then so be it.
I should have probably pointed out that what I wrote was my opinion only, if others dont agree thats fine.
I dont think TDC stops are accurate enough when when degreeing a cam, but again thats my opinion. Same goes with using the hydraulic part of the lifter, I'm sure you can get away with it but if I was going to do it I would want to be 100% sure.
As for a cam that has 0.5 degree out on inlet and 1.5 degres out on exhaust, that sounds like an incorrectly ground cam to me. Did you check all cylinders or just number 1? if your cam moved in the grinding machine by 0.5 degrees for number 1, could it not have moved furthur as the grinding machine continued down the cam, if the first was 0.5 out number 8 could be out by 4 degrees or more.
How much power do you think you gained by dialling it in? Not trying to have a go at you but I just dont think the time and effort is worth it in a street engine.

[macca33]

I tend to agree Pete - there will always be variation / tolerance on these things.

I've had my last three camshafts checked on Comp's Adcole machine and they have ALL had tolerance between specified size and ground size.

224/228 @112+2 on LSK lobes was 224/228 112.5+2.5

224/228 @112+2 on LSL lobes was 224/228 111.8+4

215/223 @111+2 on LSL lobes is 215/223 111+3.5.

Not out by much, but 4 degrees advance compared to 2 degrees as specified may not be where an engine builder wants his valve events to occur!

What if the manufacturere simply farked up and sent an entirely wrong cam to you???

cheers

[Xjas]

So dialing a cam in is not necessary anymore?


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Daz

Didnt say it wasn't ever necessary, I just think in a steet engine there is no real need to dial it in, a reputable cam grinder should be close enough to spot on for all street type application. Advancing or retarding the cam will only give minimal gains unless the cam is way out but again if its way out you need to talk to the cam grinder rather than fit an adjustable cam gear.

[peter b]

I should have probably pointed out that what I wrote was my opinion only, if others dont agree thats fine.
I dont think TDC stops are accurate enough when when degreeing a cam, but again thats my opinion. Same goes with using the hydraulic part of the lifter, I'm sure you can get away with it but if I was going to do it I would want to be 100% sure.
As for a cam that has 0.5 degree out on inlet and 1.5 degres out on exhaust, that sounds like an incorrectly ground cam to me. Did you check all cylinders or just number 1? if your cam moved in the grinding machine by 0.5 degrees for number 1, could it not have moved furthur as the grinding machine continued down the cam, if the first was 0.5 out number 8 could be out by 4 degrees or more.
How much power do you think you gained by dialling it in? Not trying to have a go at you but I just dont think the time and effort is worth it in a street engine.

TDC stops if correctly used and no Im not just saying put it in the hole a hope for the best. On the crank you also have a keyway which does help in working out where the engine is in relation to which piston is up etc so it isn't guessing. If you use the tool correctly you will find an accurate top dead centre.
Your comment about it being incorrectly ground I will put this to you go dial any cam in and see you will never get 0 degress out there is more variables than just the cam itself. You are only looking at one thing what if there are inaccuracies in the chain set should I get my cam reground for that? what if when the block was manufactured there was a slight inaccuracy in the cam tunnel??
A solid lifter is not needed nor warranted for dialling in won't achieve anything by having solid for dialling it in.
Comment about checking on each cylinder now that would be wise if it was old school and the cam shop was using an older style machine where it uses a stone wheel but most manufacturers now use cnc machines which my supplier does. Crow are the only ones that I believe still use the old style of machine not 100% sure if more do.
So thus being ground on a cnc is a lot more accurate.
I agree with when you say cams now are more accurate yes but it doesn't hurt to actually take the time and do it properly as there are more variables than just the cam. If you need further explanation please feel free to ask

[Xjas]

Your comment about it being incorrectly ground I will put this to you go dial any cam in and see you will never get 0 degress out there is more variables than just the cam itself. You are only looking at one thing what if there are inaccuracies in the chain set should I get my cam reground for that? what if when the block was manufactured there was a slight inaccuracy in the cam tunnel??
A solid lifter is not needed nor warranted for dialling in won't achieve anything by having solid for dialling it in.
I agree with when you say cams now are more accurate yes but it doesn't hurt to actually take the time and do it properly as there are more variables than just the cam. If you need further explanation please feel free to ask

If you have different timing error between the inlet (0.5) and exhaust (1.5) I would have thought that could only be an inacurate cam grind, wouldn't a chain or block inaccuracy give the same error on both lobes?
I didnt say you need a solid lifter, only that you should put you dial indicator on the outer non hydraulic part of the lifter.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't dial in their cam if they want to, just that it isnt that necessary in a cam only street engine, it might move the power curve slightly but the power gain/loss would be minimal.

[stupotarnie]

Thanks Peter b. If I buy an after market timing chain set like Rollmaster is that adjustable? Sorry probably silly questions. But if you dont ask you know...Cheers...

[peter b]

If you have different timing error between the inlet (0.5) and exhaust (1.5) I would have thought that could only be an inacurate cam grind, wouldn't a chain or block inaccuracy give the same error on both lobes?
I didnt say you need a solid lifter, only that you should put you dial indicator on the outer non hydraulic part of the lifter.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't dial in their cam if they want to, just that it isnt that necessary in a cam only street engine, it might move the power curve slightly but the power gain/loss would be minimal.

Whats to say the inaccuracy isn't a mix of a couple things where it be chain set and block, or block and camshaft. Hence why I am saying it is the Correct way to install a cam is dial it in.
The inaccuracy I have I could have adjusted but would have moved my intake a little bit further than half a degree.
In all fairness I think you need to talk to a cam manufacturer as your beliefs are a little off.
In dialling the cam in I havent mentioned do it to increase power. I said do it to make the most out of the camshaft. For example if it is retarded 4 degrees somehow someway but is supposed to have 4 degrees advance. Leaving it dot to dot the car won't perform as it is too far retarded. You then advance it four to get it to 0 then another 4 to get it to be where it is supposed to be. Then 1 your power band will be where you want it and 2 you will have more response. Advance will give more response not soo much big improvements in a rear wheel figure the graph will change a little but the improvement will be on how it drives.
Most cam manufacturers will not accept returns once a cam is installed.
Then asks the question 1.5 on exhaust and 0.5 on intake is not enough to cause an issue with driveability especially when it was 0.5 degree more advance on intake and 1.5 retard on exhaust basically equalled itself out so to speak.
I can't and won't recommend to just slide a camshaft in as it is not the right way. There are many ways to do different things to a cars engine but with camshafts it is simple the correct way or the not so correct way sure it works but your putting a lot of faith into a machine and human error

[peter b]

Thanks Peter b. If I buy an after market timing chain set like Rollmaster is that adjustable? Sorry probably silly questions. But if you dont ask you know...Cheers...

Rollmaster chain sets have adjustment in 2 degree increments 8 degrees advance and retard. As does cloyes, SA Gear,Manley and a few other manufacturers

[daztheclipper]

Whats to say the inaccuracy isn't a mix of a couple things where it be chain set and block, or block and camshaft. Hence why I am saying it is the Correct way to install a cam is dial it in.
The inaccuracy I have I could have adjusted but would have moved my intake a little bit further than half a degree.
In all fairness I think you need to talk to a cam manufacturer as your beliefs are a little off.
In dialling the cam in I havent mentioned do it to increase power. I said do it to make the most out of the camshaft. For example if it is retarded 4 degrees somehow someway but is supposed to have 4 degrees advance. Leaving it dot to dot the car won't perform as it is too far retarded. You then advance it four to get it to 0 then another 4 to get it to be where it is supposed to be. Then 1 your power band will be where you want it and 2 you will have more response. Advance will give more response not soo much big improvements in a rear wheel figure the graph will change a little but the improvement will be on how it drives.
Most cam manufacturers will not accept returns once a cam is installed.
Then asks the question 1.5 on exhaust and 0.5 on intake is not enough to cause an issue with driveability especially when it was 0.5 degree more advance on intake and 1.5 retard on exhaust basically equalled itself out so to speak.
I can't and won't recommend to just slide a camshaft in as it is not the right way. There are many ways to do different things to a cars engine but with camshafts it is simple the correct way or the not so correct way sure it works but your putting a lot of faith into a machine and human error

Thanks for the info Peter b, I have always had my cams dialed in and will continue to insist that this is done if a cam install is a path I choose to go down! ;)


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Daz

[peter b]

Thanks for the info Peter b, I have always had my cams dialed in and will continue to insist that this is done if a cam install is a path I choose to go down! ;)


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Daz

Not a problem at all/ Always happen to help where I can.