HSV plans shift to rear-mount gears

[Ghia351]

Drive, 13/8/2011:

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/hsv-plans-shift-to-rearmount-gears-20110812-1ipbd.html


The founder of Albins, Ivan Albins, expressed surprise when questioned about HSV's interest in the gearbox. ''I didn't think anyone knew about that,'' he told Drive during a chance meeting in the West Australian outback, where he was driving the length of the Canning Stock Route. ''We've signed a confidentiality agreement with HSV, so I can't really say much about it.''

[DuaneDibbley]

That sounds cool!

Although, I woulda thought a NDA woulda meant "don't tell newspapers you have a NDA with us" lol.

[AllWheelSlide]

That sounds cool!

Although, I woulda thought a NDA woulda meant "don't tell newspapers you have a NDA with us" lol.

An NDA means you cannot disclose to anyone the contents of an arrangement and especially the commercial parts.
Contractors often sign them and promptly forget.
If he was under one, he should not have responded and if a response is required neither confirm or deny or go the old no comment.

[Ruiner]

Is this just for the wank factor? I see no benefits in fitting a transaxle to a family sedan based performance car that weighs 1700>kg

[brentonsav]

will be great to see some of this stuff.

and LSA is what we want to see in a commodore, or an LS9.

i really believe there is a market for the $120-150k muscle car to be produced in limited numbers for an ongoing basis.

[macca_779]

Is this just for the wank factor? I see no benefits in fitting a transaxle to a family sedan based performance car that weighs 1700>kg

There is still merit in shifting the c of g rearward more

[planetdavo]

This would require a pretty fundamental change to the mid/rear area of the base car.
"Fundamental change" usually means "lots and lots of dollars" in development costs.

[steve_t]

Would mean a loss of boot space or rear passenger space?

[Evman]

Is this just for the wank factor? I see no benefits in fitting a transaxle to a family sedan based performance car that weighs 1700>kg

Complete speculation of course but it could end up being a far better shifting gearbox too. One can hope anyway. Personally I think Holden and HSV should chip in together and get some DSG action happening.

[Souljah]

i really believe there is a market for the $120-150k muscle car to be produced in limited numbers for an ongoing basis.
Maybe but in that price range it would have to equal and beat the GTR in all areas. Highly unlikely.

[brentonsav]

Maybe but in that price range it would have to equal and beat the GTR in all areas. Highly unlikely.

i don't believe so.

for instance, i'm a muscle car fan, not a sports car fan.

i define muscle cars and full size, min four seat and better in a straight line than it is around the corners whilst producing effortless horsepower.

it would have to be fundamentally different to a commodore though is some way (transmission?) - this is where i think the w427 failed to hit the mark.

[feistl]

Maybe but in that price range it would have to equal and beat the GTR in all areas. Highly unlikely.

Depends what you mean by "beat"....

If you mean outright performance then I agree that's highly unlikely.

However if you mean "beat" the gtr by having 5 seats, a v8 engine and RWD then it could easily "beat" it. Just depends what market there is....

[mjrandom]

Maybe but in that price range it would have to equal and beat the GTR in all areas. Highly unlikely.

New for new the GTR isn't in that price range. I went through the exercise recently and the GTR was $170k+ otr.

[planetdavo]

Would mean a loss of boot space or rear passenger space?

A non-disclosure agreement could exist even if HSV were just making generic enquiries as to options available, rather than a product being developed.
Floorpan mods, new fuel tank design, unique driveline components not shared with regular production Holdens all equal huge dollars for a low volume car to spread per unit.
Kidding ourselves that this one is close to the mark anytime soon in the current environment. Investigating an Aus product to suit a US GM rear trans product line might be a bit closer to the mark though I feel...

[v8dude78]

I found this interesting

"HSV is already working on a supercharged V8 that is expected to increase performance significantly over the current 6.2-litre V8."

[steve_t]

A non-disclosure agreement could exist even if HSV were just making generic enquiries as to options available, rather than a product being developed.
Floorpan mods, new fuel tank design, unique driveline components not shared with regular production Holdens all equal huge dollars for a low volume car to spread per unit.
Kidding ourselves that this one is close to the mark anytime soon in the current environment. Investigating an Aus product to suit a US GM rear trans product line might be a bit closer to the mark though I feel...

Ooh... an Aussie made ZR-1 style car? :jester:

[Uncle Tone]

Floorpan might take it, but the diff cradle definitely wont.

I doubt whether this will ever happen.

However, if it does, I'd be more than happy. I've met Ivan Albins years ago and seen his factory. Fantastic fella, and his work is amazing. Some very tough Porsche type off-road transaxles have come out of that shop....rated at 1000hp plus in off-road applications.....so he has the runs on the board.

Rumour has it he is working on a DSG-esque self shifter as well! I'm tipping that this is the box the Joss will be getting.

www.albinsgear.com.au

[Xjas]

Interesting idea, I wouldnt think that the weight or centre of gravity gain would be enough to justify the expense of putting the box in the rear although if there is a supercharged engine on the way perhaps getting more weight over the rears might be an advantage, or possibly the layout would give a good centre of gravity with the car set up for four wheel drive.

MMMM....... 6.2 supercharged 4wd 4 door sedan, yes please.

[RB30X]

Yay, we can go back to leaf springs in the rear too.

[vyls1wa]

This sort of change us something that is either a planned update from when they designed the car or something you bring into a new model, to much work for a car 4 years into it's life. Not gona happen

[feistl]

Alfa have gone to the effort of putting their gearboxes in the back for a while now. And to be honest, a gearbox is pretty bloody heavy in comparison to the engine. IIRC a complete LS3 is around 130kg whereas a transmission is ~75kg for manual and ~95kg for the auto?

So yeah, i would suspect moving nearly half the weight to the rear would have a positive effect on the handling of the car.

[Evman]

Yay, we can go back to leaf springs in the rear too.

Amazing how a leaf sprung car can scare a GTR around the 'ring :stick: If it works well, might as well use it. A bit like pushrod V8's.

[6.2L.Club]

Rear mounted DSG gearbox coupled to a low boost supercharged LS3 would be friggen awesome and would be an easy mid 12 production car. Pully change and a retune for an 11 second streeter. :drool:

[macca_779]

Amazing how a leaf sprung car can scare a GTR around the 'ring :stick: If it works well, might as well use it. A bit like pushrod V8's.

Scare? Isn't the zr1 quicker than the dato

[smokey777]

Scare? Isn't the zr1 quicker than the dato

doesnt it have balsa in it somewhere too?

[Evman]

Scare? Isn't the zr1 quicker than the dato

It definitely was at the beginning, but I was unsure if Nissan had since improved the car to beat it :lol:

[Martin_D]

Does anyone really think HSV (who do a very good job of upgraded plastics and general vehicle aesthetics) are going to design, engineer, spend the three years in development, and tool for a completely new floorpan to house a different transmission?

[Micks]

Does anyone really think HSV (who do a very good job of upgraded plastics and general vehicle aesthetics) are going to design, engineer, spend the three years in development, and tool for a completely new floorpan to house a different transmission?

Nup!
Cheers
VYT

[FATTGLIDES]

now a HSV/GTR-x in a rebaged 2011/2012-CAMARO BODY .

NOW WERE TALKING GT F#*D----KILLER :bow: TO THE ROAR.
454 CI- SCREWCHARGER MMMMM.
BUT THE PRICE TAG
would have us all hitting the equity mate.

[Xjas]

Does anyone really think HSV (who do a very good job of upgraded plastics and general vehicle aesthetics) are going to design, engineer, spend the three years in development, and tool for a completely new floorpan to house a different transmission?

Nope, but as long as a real sports car is financially out of reach for most its nice to dream.:)

[abi]

Might this rear gerbox talk have something to do with the Walkinshaw owned sportscar group doing the lotus 7 club racers and streamliners?

Makes more sense to me that they fit a transaxle to an upcoming model from this group.

[feistl]

Does anyone really think HSV (who do a very good job of upgraded plastics and general vehicle aesthetics) are going to design, engineer, spend the three years in development, and tool for a completely new floorpan to house a different transmission?

Does anyone know exactly whats required though? I havnt seen on of those gearboxes yet, so im not sure whats involved. But on the basis that the new V8 supercars are going to use them means some of the work must have already been done (eg floor plan designs etc).

[gmh308]

Does anyone know exactly whats required though? I havnt seen on of those gearboxes yet, so im not sure whats involved. But on the basis that the new V8 supercars are going to use them means some of the work must have already been done (eg floor plan designs etc).

In a regular production car: LOTS. Its already been mentioned. Rear floor pan and petrol tank. IRS. Diff. The trans needs to bolt to the diff assembly and become a "transaxle". A complete repackaging.

This is a Corvette style setup. There is a torque tube that connects the engine to the rear suspension. Torque convertor or clutch goes at the front with the trans at the rear.

Generating some good publicity though :).

[duke5700]

I really really don't see this happening. I would say there is confusion between the new generation of V8supercars coming and the road cars.

HSV's sales ploy is add a few bits, tweak the tune and plucky advertising.

[Evman]

A few years ago the idea of FPV creating their own supercharged engine package would have been a laugh too. I still think a DSG would be a better investment.

[IJ.]

In a regular production car: LOTS. Its already been mentioned. Rear floor pan and petrol tank. IRS. Diff. The trans needs to bolt to the diff assembly and become a "transaxle". A complete repackaging.

This is a Corvette style setup. There is a torque tube that connects the engine to the rear suspension. Torque convertor or clutch goes at the front with the trans at the rear.

Generating some good publicity though :).

This, even if it goes no where it's done it's job for now!

[gmh308]

I really really don't see this happening. I would say there is confusion between the new generation of V8supercars coming and the road cars.

HSV's sales ploy is add a few bits, tweak the tune and plucky advertising.

Yup there. They need to learn to tune though and get the same results from the 6.2 as Merc does :). Thats some serious power from the Merc V8.

[the big fist]

Could it be possibly for a new concept car ?

[duke5700]

Yup there. They need to learn to tune though and get the same results from the 6.2 as Merc does :). Thats some serious power from the Merc V8.

I'm sure they would do just fine if they where tuning the same engine :confused:

[duke5700]

Could it be possibly for a new concept car ?

That's a good possibility.

[T2000]

Nice Read...

Some good comments & dreams are free!

All of the above options would be an enhancement over todays (dated) GMH technology.

I personally would like to see the continuation of the existing formula of old fashioned pushrod grunt with a DSG upgrade and with a factory f/i option... not a massive (or costly) variation compared with todays offerings but a significant improvement in all areas (driveability, performance and economy).

Transaxle? - whatever.... if you want better weight distribution just add grunt and a few bags of cement to the boot (right forman ;) ??? )

[blair_355]

Wonder how long a dsg box would last behind a big cam/turbo/nitrous/supercharger? :confused:

[MyCat-cc]

Personally I think Holden and HSV should chip in together and get some DSG action happening.

+1

Leave the box where it is and go for a DSG. :goodjob:

[CLUBRED]

Hmm, Monaro supercar is coming... :)

Wonder if HSV are linked to a carbon / kevlar manufacturer to...

[csv rulz]

Wonder how long a dsg box would last behind a big cam/turbo/nitrous/supercharger? :confused:

How long would a normal auto last?

[Uncle Tone]

+1

Leave the box where it is and go for a DSG. :goodjob:

Yep.

I wouldn't like to be the bloke in charge of Holden NVH when the engineers decide to link the engine, gearbox and diff together with a solid pipe and then spin a propshaft down the guts of the lot of it at 6k plus.....

Ferrari or Nissan NVH guys would shit it in, but I think the only thing the Holden guy would be shitting is his pants! :lol:

[planetdavo]

More and more enthusiasts are making anti-DSG noises these days compared to a couple of years ago, as people suddenly remember they like to take control "of the beast" by perfecting manual gearchanges, rather than being dumbed down by just flexing their fingers on paddles. Go figure...:confused:

[Evman]

More and more enthusiasts are making anti-DSG noises these days compared to a couple of years ago, as people suddenly remember they like to take control "of the beast" by perfecting manual gearchanges, rather than being dumbed down by just flexing their fingers on paddles. Go figure...:confused:

The DSG is positioned to replace automatic gearboxes, not manuals. It can be completely controlled by a computer, or shifted "manually" through a manual input into said computer. Exactly the same way automatics operate these days.

[Martin_D]

More and more enthusiasts are making anti-DSG noises these days compared to a couple of years ago, as people suddenly remember they like to take control "of the beast" by perfecting manual gearchanges, rather than being dumbed down by just flexing their fingers on paddles. Go figure...:confused:

So tell Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Nissan and Mitsubishi that Davo. Maybe if they were members of this forum they might learn something :lol:

[Martin_D]

The DSG is positioned to replace automatic gearboxes, not manuals.

Its positioned to replace both actually

[planetdavo]

The DSG is positioned to replace automatic gearboxes, not manuals. It can be completely controlled by a computer, or shifted "manually" through a manual input into said computer. Exactly the same way automatics operate these days.

Perhaps manufacturers need to market them better.
Most performance applications talk more about the rifle bolt gearchanges, which is the market starting to make more noise about the dumbed down experience and reduced pleasure.

[Martin_D]

Which DSG performance cars have you driven Davo?
(Please done come back with Golf....or something similar :lol:)

[planetdavo]

Your input was more than expected, based off previous opinions posted and constant slagoffs of "dinosaur" manual gearboxes Tuna.
I said more and more people. Personally I couldn't care one bit if you are playstation generation. Newer might often be "better", but it isn't necessarily more "enjoyable"...:teach:

[Martin_D]

Davo - once more - have you driven a performance DSG car?
And who are these 'more people'? (apprentices that put the taxi number on the roof and punt customers single spinners in the service department carpark dont count as informed opinions here - most of them would think DSG = Dope Straight Ganja and reach for the Tally-Ho papers)

[macca33]

Well Davo, if they get rid of the venerable 6-slotter, Phonsey and co will have to develop a RIP(finger)SHIFT for those X-Boxers....:hide: :lmao:

Having made that feeble attempt at humour; I still love ripping through the gears in the hills, as we did last Sunday and a manual still represents the greater experience for me.

cheers

[Martin_D]

I still love ripping through the gears in the hills, as we did last Sunday and a manual still represents the greater experience for me.

My point Macca is until you have spend a few sessions in a GTR, 458, or even EVO X doing the same, then its your - only - experience, so of course you like it more :)
I remember the same thing when EFI was released....stick with the carbies, much better throttle response and driving experience :lol:

[planetdavo]

Do you remember the enjoyment gained from mastering a manual car Martin, before you joined the DSG brigade where every spud looks like a hero because a computer does the work for their puny little brains... :spew:
I have driven DSG cars Martin, as you know, but as we also know, you love to bait constantly on this forum, as you are loooooooooong gone as a Holden owner. How old are you??? :confused:

[Martin_D]

I have driven DSG cars Martin, as you know, but as we also know, you love to bait constantly on this forum, as you are loooooooooong gone as a Holden owner. How old are you??? :confused:

Once more - what DSG cars have you driven Davo?
(P.S. Davo, look at the car in my Avatar - I race it, its a stick shift manual. Hope that makes you feel better)

My race car is a manual, my work hack a DSG

[csv rulz]

My point Macca is until you have spend a few sessions in a GTR, 458, or even EVO X doing the same, then its your - only - experience, so of course you like it more :)
I remember the same thing when EFI was released....stick with the carbies, much better throttle response and driving experience :lol:

The only way that would be relative is if you could drive those cars back to back with exactly the same car in a manual, you can't compare a gtr or 458 with dsg to a 10yr old hsv! Personally I couldn't give a shit about saving 100 tenths of a second with each change. The enjoyment you get from mastering a manual is so satisfying. I'll take a manual every day of the week thanks. However
If I had to choose between dsg and auto than by all accounts atleast dsg gives you some form of control.

[macca33]

My point Macca is until you have spend a few sessions in a GTR, 458, or even EVO X doing the same, then its your - only - experience, so of course you like it more :)
I remember the same thing when EFI was released....stick with the carbies, much better throttle response and driving experience :lol:
I 'spose, had I never driven a fast, technologically advanced car, that I would agree with you, but some of us like using the third pedal and don't have to go as fast as, or possess as much technology as the latest and greatest. :yup:

I'm not afraid of new technology, but I can also make my own decisions and not simply follow the techno-geek crowd who HAVE to have the latest contraption because it looks better sitting outside the latte shop. I still shave with a blade as well - no 'money back' promise is going to persuade me to choose anything different. I'm sure that in less than 50 years, this self-drive style of transport will resemble what the dodo is to the earth at present. Each to their own.

[Martin_D]

I'm sure that in less than 50 years, this self-drive style of transport will resemble what the dodo is to the earth at present. Each to their own.

They said that at the end of the early 70s muscle car era too.....but cars are much faster, more involving, and better in every way than they were then - thankfully :)

Each to their own, but it pays to try each as well, then decide which one you want to own :cool:

[steve_t]

some of us like using the third pedal and don't have to go as fast

+1

10 chars

[macca_779]

Maybe Davo would prefer a box without syncros for the enjoyment factor of double clutching. Or drive a road ranger and tell me that's enjoyable. Rowing a 6 speed is more fun than driving an auto no doubt. But by fark a dsg is still quite enjoyable in the same way a sequential box is too on a bike for example.

[planetdavo]

I've driven DSG boxed cars, paddle shift auto cars and tipshift style auto cars.
ALL OF THEM aren't as much fun to me as a good old manual "stick".
Others will differ in their opinions, as they have a right to do.

[T2000]

Whilst all of this discussion is interesting...
And whilst watching the chemistry, aggression and bias unfold is mildly entertaining...

I just wonder what all this talk of a "My traditional H Pattern single shaft box is better than your multi shaft dual clutch box" has to do with the topic at hand?

Isnt this thread about whether or not HSV will go ahead with its' not so secret plans to move towards a trans axle gearbox?

[planetdavo]

Whilst all of this discussion is interesting...
And whilst watching the chemistry, aggression and bias unfold is mildly entertaining...

I just wonder what all this talk of a "My traditional H Pattern single shaft box is better than your multi shaft dual clutch box" has to do with the topic at hand?

Isnt this thread about whether or not HSV will go ahead with its' not so secret plans to move towards a trans axle gearbox?

One might suggest that the huge expense of trying to fit this transaxle style driveline to a low volume car production based sedan made it a load of bullsh!t pages ago, so we had to vary the discussion to a more "realistic" subject...:jester:
There was always a whiff of DSG or robotised manual box about this topic from the very beginning, if you want a link. :)

[Evman]

Its positioned to replace both actually

I didn't realise they also had a foot clutch and H pattern shift should the driver prefer to use that.

[Martin_D]

I didn't realise they also had a foot clutch and H pattern shift should the driver prefer to use that.

Nissan GTR comes as DSG only
Ferrari 458 comes as DSG only

You think they were only doing this to appeal to only those that would have bought one of these cars in auto? :idea:

Commodore is fighting for survival in the main game of fleet sales, its hardly going to be re-engineered to take a transmission that very few potential owners could understand the workings of and the advantages it offers, let alone shell out additional money for. Its not that kind of car.

[ls1vt209]

Nothing like free publicity hey?

[Evman]

Golf and other VW's come with DSG and manual as does the Audi range, with no auto option. They're far more realistic for the masses, and far more numerous, than two supercars Martin :goodjob: Exactly how many people do you know that know how an automatic transmission works? Having said that, how many know how a manual works? Betting 90% of the population wouldn't even know what a torque converter is.

Knowing the ins and outs of a gearbox has bugger all to do with sales :lmao: Your argument on price holds water, everything else... Not so much.

Others with DSG and manuals (and no autos);
Porsche range
BMW range
Ford Focus
Peugeot 4007

[Martin_D]

Knowing the ins and outs of a gearbox has bugger all to do with sales :lmao: Your argument on price holds water, everything else... Not so much.

Dont ever let anyone tell you driving a paddle shifted car on PS3 is just like the real thing :lol:

[planetdavo]

Dont ever let anyone tell you driving a paddle shifted car on PS3 is just like the real thing :lol:

Because tapping a shift paddle whilst feeling some G force really is a vastly more satisfying experience...:rolleyes:
You are a die hard no compromise track fan Martin, as evidenced my many previous posts on this forum. A DSG might be just the thing to gain track time (or impress geeky mates with talk about milliseconds saved in shift time), but it's different to your average John Smith on this forum who owns their own AFFORDABLE road car, doesn't do much if any track time, but does enjoy mastering the brain punishing task of matching clutch and gear lever movement on their favourite piece of road.

[Martin_D]

John Smith on this forum who owns their own AFFORDABLE road car, doesn't do much if any track time, but does enjoy mastering the brain punishing task of matching clutch and gear lever movement on their favourite piece of road.

I gotcha Davo...with all the talk of the driving experience and required skill one would think it was - all - about the track and lap-times, I just got it wrong. Hamfisting a T56 through the gears in a daily trafffic grind hardly brings visions of the grand old days of derring-do at Brooklands speedway to mind (let alone driving enjoyment), but each to their own - we all need to take fun anyway we can get it.

Public agrees with me there, which is why the vast majority of Commodores made are auto :cool:
and there are many cheaper DSG cars around than even an entry level HSV, which is a pretty average device from a shift quality viewpoint. The obvious DSG advantage is that its - impossible - to have the clutch stick to the floor :eek:

[planetdavo]

I gotcha Davo...with all the talk of the driving experience and required skill one would think it was - all - about the track and lap-times, I just got it wrong. Hamfisting a T56 through the gears in a daily trafffic grind hardly brings visions of the grand old days of derring-do at Brooklands speedway to mind (let alone driving enjoyment), but each to their own - we all need to take fun anyway we can get it.

A torque convertor auto is a lot smoother than a DSG in stop start traffic Martin, as you would (or should) know.
DSG's have a place in society, just as traditional manuals and traditional auto's do. You shouldn't be so hasty dismissing the benefits of the other non-dsg options.
Commodore auto buyers get to play with the tipshift thing if they want to.

[IJ.]

<looks down> yep only 2 feet.... wanders off

manual cars get "old" after a few decades of driving them.

[feistl]

The obvious DSG advantage is that its - impossible - to have the clutch stick to the floor :eek:

True, but a broken clutch can be fixed by a mechanically minded owner in an afternoon, a few beers and a couple of bucks of replacement parts.

While a DSG may not have clutch failure, the problems they do have require a replacement gearbox at considerable cost.

As a driving enthusiast i enjoy both DSG and Manual, and can even see the point of traditional autos.

However i personally believe that the current cost of DSG is too high for most "regular" drivers who couldn't tell the difference between it and an Auto box. They like the idea of paddle shift as "Its like a formula 1 car" which has massive bragging rights... But in reality its a very expensive box which does a very similar job to considerably cheaper gearboxes. Sure, many people on this forum would be happy to pay the extra for the performance gains but they are the overall minority...

So it doesn't surprise me that we havnt seen a DSG gearbox in a commodore yet.

What i am surprised/annoyed about is HSV have yet to offer a T56 Magnum as a choice on the GTS. Considering how little work is required to fit one of these gearboxes it would be an easy option to give and i personally think there would be a market for it. If your spending $70k on a manual HSV, surely another $2k for a proper gearbox that actually works would be a sensible option? The current T56/TR6060 is pretty average in terms of shift speed, gear ratios and overall feel.

Cheers

[Martin_D]

They like the idea of paddle shift as "Its like a formula 1 car" which has massive bragging rights...

Its also much, much faster in a straight line or around any road course than a conventional manual/auto. Thats why nearly all (if not all) the current generation sub 3 second 0-100km/h production cars are DSG equipped
Twin Clutch transmissions are all about performance rather than gimmick. Paddles on autos are the gimmick. Dont confuse that basic point.

[Evman]

Dont ever let anyone tell you driving a paddle shifted car on PS3 is just like the real thing :lol:

I'll leave the computer games to you I think. I don't even own a gaming console.

I agree with IJ that you can certainly get sick of manual cars, but there will always be a market for them. Even he suggests it takes a few decades. Like everything, cost will come down in time.

How would a DSG go for holding double the power it was designed for? Is a clutch upgrade still an option?

[csv rulz]

Its also much, much faster in a straight line or around any road course than a conventional manual/auto. Thats why nearly all (if not all) the current generation sub 3 second 0-100km/h production cars are DSG equipped
Twin Clutch transmissions are all about performance rather than gimmick. Paddles on autos are the gimmick. Dont confuse that basic point.

Commodores aren't meant to be a sub 3sec car. They are a relative cheap family car

[Martin_D]

Many stock GTR Twin Clutch transmissions/clutches holding 500+rwkw and running 9 second passes in a 1750kg car.
Also there are many upgraded clutch packs around starting from around $1200, so its not too bad to upgrade these things - should they need it. Wet clutches dont burn out and self destruct anything like a conventional dry clutch, and having 12 plates in the case of GTR helps too :cool:

Here is a 1:32 lap of Eastern Creek on Radials from a 1000hp GTR with our upgraded clutches -
y8Cg_TJn104

[Evman]

^ Cheers Martin. I do agree that it's a dream and probably will remain a dream of having s DSG in a Commodore, but it would be terrific either way. Considering the fact that there are already DSG's going into other "normal" cars like the Focus and Golf it gives some hope that it maybe might happen someday perhaps :lol:

[IJ.]

One day someone will perfect a CVT setup and we'll wonder why all the fuss about clutches :)

[feistl]

Its also much, much faster in a straight line or around any road course than a conventional manual/auto. Thats why nearly all (if not all) the current generation sub 3 second 0-100km/h production cars are DSG equipped
Twin Clutch transmissions are all about performance rather than gimmick. Paddles on autos are the gimmick. Dont confuse that basic point.

Never said it wasnt, my point is for the vast majority of holden/hsv buyers, they dont need to be faster around a road course than a conventional manual/auto. They just want something reasonably enjoyable and fast to drive without spending a fortune. Adding a DSG gearbox might add $5k to the price of the car to enable slightly faster shifts, but for most buyers that cost is far too high for the relatively small performance gain.

Sure, for all sub 3 second cars go for DSG but the buyers of those cars are happy to pay the price premium.

Remember, Even the HSV GTS is "just" a large family type car with a bit of performance. It is NOT a sports car/super car...

[Pickles]

Can't see how this "product" could ever be financially feasible for a limited build company like HSV......unless it's being done for a wider GM application.
But, for a Commodore.....is it really necessary?......I don't think so, & I don't think we'll see it....just "right over the top", I reckon.
Cheers, Pickles.

[CLUBRED]

Would rather build quality issues be sorted out first. I can see the conversation amongst mates "my suspension knocks, my door wobbles, my IQ dumbs out, but I have a DSG box!" mates, "fwarrrrrr!"

[exwrx]

Fuel economy gains will drive the increased use of DSG gearboxes, even to Holden and Ford.

[duke5700]

Looks like the GTR got caught up round the top of the track.. Would of had a bit more in it than a 1:32 by the looks of that.

[Irish]

<looks down> yep only 2 feet.... wanders off

manual cars get "old" after a few decades of driving them.

Any car will be old after a few decades of use. /jk

[planetdavo]

Fuel economy gains will drive the increased use of DSG gearboxes, even to Holden and Ford.

Only if the price comes down dramatically.
At this point about the only mainstream family cars using DSG boxes are fairly low torque front wheel drive applications, or "premium price" Euro's.

[Martin_D]

Or EVO X 5 door, 5 seater for $60K.......

[planetdavo]

Or EVO X 5 door, 5 seater for $60K.......

Based as it is off a 20K shopping hack, and it has global sales to spread the cost.

[Martin_D]

Based as it is off a 20K shopping hack, and it has global sales to spread the cost.

Mitsubishi are to be credited with spending money on the bits that go under the skin, rather than led lights and body kits. Production racing where the EVO X is unbeatable proves this so. Shopping hack based and all :bow:

VE/G8/Lumina has easily outsold EVO X.

- Note: Most every sub 100K car I know of is shopping hack or taxi based -

[planetdavo]

Mitsubishi are to be credited with spending money on the bits that go under the skin, rather than led lights and body kits to fool the ignorant. Production racing where the EVO X is unbeatable proves this so. Shopping hack based and all :bow:

VE/G8/Lumina has easily outsold EVO X.

VERY, VERY debatable that the DSG box makes the Evo so "unbeatable". The rest of the package more likely. :yup:
And by the way, slagging off people who buy led and body kit cars like (you claim) HSV do as being "ignorant" buyers shows you up on the forum as being nothing more than an elitist snob.
You should try respecting peoples reasons for liking those sorts of cars in this big country, as they are vastly more practical than a smallish Lancer for what many people need to do each year...:teach:

[Martin_D]

VERY, VERY debatable that the DSG box makes the Evo so "unbeatable". The rest of the package more likely. :yup:

You got it in 1 Davo
So how pray tell can a manufacturer pack in AWD, Front and Rear Active Limited Slip Diffs, DSG Twin Clutch Transmission, Yaw Control, Brembo brakes front and rear, Aluminium panels, bespoke turbocharged engine with proper oil cooler/transmission cooler, and Recaro seats for a $30K premium over the shopping trolley model?

Seems like fairly good value for $$$ spent versus upgrade. Holden need to give us some of that. Smaller on the chrome plastic, bigger on the driveline smarts. We nearly had some of it too with the promised SS AWD...but alas, the beancounters killed it before it was born....

Building cars is all about making money, but surely some of it has to be about building better/safer cars as well?

[Martin_D]

A good reason we need to keep shopping hacks with hardcore drivelines :lol:
btViXvIDsi0
Fantastic to see the team from Epic Meal Time - Sauce Boss and Muscles Glasses - step up and make the grade with DC :cool:

[planetdavo]

So how pray tell can a manufacturer pack in AWD, Front and Rear Active Limited Slip Diffs, DSG Twin Clutch Transmission, Yaw Control, Brembo brakes front and rear, Aluminium panels, bespoke turbocharged engine with proper oil cooler/transmission cooler, and Recaro seats for a $30K premium over the shopping trolley model?


More like around 40-50K above the price of the shopping trolley model.
Different things appeal to different buyers. Lancer packs a fair bit of gear for it's money, but it also would be nowhere near a liveable daily proposition for most buyers, whereas some other cars that don't appeal to you have both sufficient performance as well as daily drive comfort, so it depends on what you want or need for your dollars.
Earlier comparisons with the G8 volume don't hold much water. The US would never have wanted an all wheel drive VE, so there was still no volume for that sort of product to be produced, whereas Mits/Suby have the rice/gamer/production racer market, so already have a fairly big market to sell to around much of the world, spreading the cost much easier.

[Martin_D]

I think AWD could (or should) be considered a basic safety feature rather than something for ricers/gamers/racers. I know when the family is out in an AWD tarmac car and its raining cats and dogs it gives a certain sense of security :)
After looking at the sorts of performance some members here got from the Coupe4 back in the day, the AWD SS (which was extensively prototype tested so was a genuine production reality) represents an opportunity missed. My 2c, spend it how you want Davo :lol:

[IJ.]

I think AWD could (or should) be considered a basic safety feature rather than something for ricers/gamers/racers. I know when the family is out in an AWD tarmac car and its raining cats and dogs it gives a certain sense of security :)
After looking at the sorts of performance some members here got from the Coupe4 back in the day, the AWD SS (which was extensively prototype tested so was a genuine production reality) represents an opportunity missed. My 2c, spend it how you want Davo :lol:

Agree with this 100% Martin!

Both my DD and my Toy are AWD.

[feistl]

I think AWD could (or should) be considered a basic safety feature

Not really, Excluding snow/icy conditions (Which lets face it, isnt very common here in Australia) there isnt much difference between FWD/RWD/AWD unless your being a knob and driving like an idiot. Most accidents are either caused by inattention, fatigue, distraction, speed (to a certain extent) or unroadworthy cars.

If you were to magically switch every single car to AWD, i dont think we would see much of a drop in road trauma. However, convert every car to have ABS/Airbags and i think the fatality rate would drop considerably.

[csv rulz]

Imagine how heavy the VE would be with awd, it's already a very heavy car

[steve_t]

The extra weight and drivetrain losses make AWD far from economical. My 2 litre turbo Subie has about the same fuel efficiency as my Maloo :smilesandbanana:

[FlatfootV8]

Gee how original already pathetic childish slagging match happens as per usual here.

Become men not boys. :p

I think an trans axle idea is a different approach for a family car but if its done right I don't see much of a problem with it. DSG gearboxes has their pro's and cons as well I utterly hate CVT transmissions with a passion but thats just my opinion.

Would I be interested in new HSV with a trans axle manual gearbox? yes very and I would love to find out what it would be like to drive if it ever eventuates instead of jusrt slagging it off instead. :p

[myss427]

My brother has a EVO 10 and a new STI and even though they handle and go extreamly well, the ride and finish is not so good. My Monaro is a bit of a limo compared to them and its 7 years old, probably biased because I'm a Holden fan. Still hard to compare a small 4 wheel drive rally car to large family car and expect to do it for the same price when they make these things in the tens of thousands for the whole world and we have GM telling us how much we can spend.

[Evman]

I think AWD could (or should) be considered a basic safety feature rather than something for ricers/gamers/racers.

Stability programming has largely taken away the need for the added grip (under normal street duties of course)

[Martin_D]

ESP is a good band aid but in a low traction situation its no substitute for all wheel drive

[csv rulz]

ESP is a good band aid but in a low traction situation its no substitute for all wheel drive

Its called driving to the conditions, Iv never driven to the point where my car has lost it because its rwd, the same with my partner and her fwd. AWD is not the bee all and end all. You seem to think that every car buyer out there wants the fastest car with the most technology. Majority of buyers just want something to get them from A to B and will never even push the car remotly close to its limits, be it 2wd or 4wd.

[bouka]

The level of ignorance, stupidity, **** measuring and stubbornness that comes through in some of these threads (time and time again) is dumbfounding.

DSG is a brilliant bit of kit. Traditional manuals are, unfortunately, on the decline. Spend some time behindthe wheel of a DSG vehicle and you will understand it's merits on various levels. And I don't mean a drive around the block or in traffic only as this is an area that could be improved.

I certainly hope the traditional manual survives (no doubt it will) but for a daily driver I would find it almost impossible to go past a DSG.

It is no wonder Holden and HSV don't push the envelope. Just listen to the fan base.

[steve_t]

It is no wonder Holden and HSV don't push the envelope. Just listen to the fan base.

Uncle Tone has been asking for a DSG 'box since the dawn of time and every Tom, Dick, and Harry have been asking for LS9s or LSAs for years and years. How can you blame the members of this forum for Holden and HSV not pushing the envelope? :confused:

[Evman]

The level of ignorance, stupidity, **** measuring and stubbornness that comes through in some of these threads (time and time again) is dumbfounding.

DSG is a brilliant bit of kit.

Who said they're not? Just about everyone on here insist that a DSG option would be fantastic, but to replace the auto. What's the point in having an auto that can be shifted manually, plus a DSG that can operate the same way, but no manual option? There would be a huge chunk of the market gone that just want a pure manual car. Call them ignorant, stupid, d**k measuring, stubborn fools if you want, but some people just prefer to drive a manual.

[feistl]

It is no wonder Holden and HSV don't push the envelope

No, i think it has more to do with the price range these cars are sold in. Judging by your ride, you dont have a problem spending serious amounts of coin on a nice ride. Not that theres a problem with that, but you are the exception rather than the majority.

So as has been said several times now, i dont think anyone has a particular problem with DSG OTHER than its initial cost. Its a nice feature, but not one that most people are willing to pay for (at this stage anyway). Given time the price will come down to the point where its affordable for the average HSV buyer.

[bouka]

Uncle Tone has been asking for a DSG 'box since the dawn of time and every Tom, Dick, and Harry have been asking for LS9s or LSAs for years and years. How can you blame the members of this forum for Holden and HSV not pushing the envelope? :confused:

Tom, Dick and Harry have done a better job than UT cos there request will be granted.

[bouka]

Who said they're not? Just about everyone on here insist that a DSG option would be fantastic, but to replace the auto. What's the point in having an auto that can be shifted manually, plus a DSG that can operate the same way, but no manual option? There would be a huge chunk of the market gone that just want a pure manual car. Call them ignorant, stupid, d**k measuring, stubborn fools if you want, but some people just prefer to drive a manual.

First paragraph was aimed at a certain trend that most of these types of threads tend to go down.

Second paragraph offered my opinion on DSG boxes. I NEVER called those wanting a manual option anything. Maybe you should reread what I wrote.

I drove manual for 8 years and as a weekender my current car would be a manual. The point some were trying to make was that a DSG is, in certain instances, a better option than a manual.

[csv rulz]

.

I drove manual for 8 years and as a weekender my current car would be a manual. The point some were trying to make was that a DSG is, in certain instances, a better option than a manual.

No Argument there mate, however some people were infering that a DSG box should take over the roll of a manual box all together. This would be a very sad day in my opinion. While a DSG gearbox would be a welcome inclusion I would personally hate for it to kill the manual off all together like it has with some cars.

[steve_t]

Tom, Dick and Harry have done a better job than UT cos there request will be granted.

It makes me :) that the request will be granted, however I'm left wondering if it was Tom, Dick, and/or Harry, or if it was Mr FPV that made it happen ;)

[bouka]

No, i think it has more to do with the price range these cars are sold in. Judging by your ride, you dont have a problem spending serious amounts of coin on a nice ride. Not that theres a problem with that, but you are the exception rather than the majority.

So as has been said several times now, i dont think anyone has a particular problem with DSG OTHER than its initial cost. Its a nice feature, but not one that most people are willing to pay for (at this stage anyway). Given time the price will come down to the point where its affordable for the average HSV buyer.

HSV and FPV will ultimately build what the market demands. My point is that if we constantly keep accepting the Status quo then that is all we will get.

My current ride is a SC GT. I owned several new HSV's before that and am a BIG fan of local product.

If we continuously accept that we will not get anything better because of the weight or cost or PD said so then guess what!

Martin has made many valid points about what could and should be possible in local product. If we, as the consumer, don't push then we won't get.

[Martin_D]

Manuals are good fun too
There are manuals, and there are manuals though......
Nice light fast shift action would be the go, took me a while to get that in my Subaru 6 speed, that is until I fitted a 'longshifter' (they are the new black) :cool:

[bouka]

It makes me :) that the request will be granted, however I'm left wondering if it was Tom, Dick, and/or Harry, or if it was Mr FPV that made it happen ;)

Who do you think made Mr FPV do it?

A perfect example of the point I am making.

[feistl]

HSV and FPV will ultimately build what the market demands.

Market Demands is not what the market wants, but what the market is prepared to pay for. At this point in time there obviously isnt enough demand (people willing to actually fork out the cash) for a DSG gearbox.

Like many features they'll be a point where the price drops enough to warrant adding it as an option/feature, but i dont think we're they yet.

[Evman]

I NEVER called those wanting a manual option anything. Maybe you should reread what I wrote.

My misunderstanding then, but maybe you should re-read what you wrote and see how easy it is to think that you were essentially calling people in this thread ignorant, stupid, d**k measurers and stubborn, and from what I can see that's the only name calling in this thread. Is that what you meant by the sort of direction these types of threads usually go down?


HSV and FPV will ultimately build what the market demands. My point is that if we constantly keep accepting the Status quo then that is all we will get.

If we continuously accept that we will not get anything better because of the weight or cost or PD said so then guess what!

Martin has made many valid points about what could and should be possible in local product. If we, as the consumer, don't push then we won't get.


It is no wonder Holden and HSV don't push the envelope. Just listen to the fan base.

Are you serious? Do you really think that the majority of us just bend over for Holden and HSV and accept what they give us as golden? If anything, we, the fan base, are the biggest bunch of whingers out there. If HSV doesn't meet our hopes we complain. If FPV does something better than HSV we complain (ie Black Series show car anyone??). FPV released a blown V8 for no significant added cost, yet HSV has had two at their disposal for years without bringing them here. There were and are a lot of unhappy Holden/HSV fans regarding that, and there were and are a lot of people happy to voice their disappointment. We're all saying what we want, but that isn't going to make Holden and HSV built it.

Maybe, however, Holden and HSV aren't pushing the envelope just now because they were almost sold off thanks to GM. One of many possible reasons. Not to mention the fact that Holden had their AWD range, they pushed the envelope as far as the money men said they could in that regard. It failed. HSV tried too. It failed. Sure they coulda woulda shoulda built a manual version, or one that didn't have all open diffs, or one that was several hundred kilograms lighter, but they didn't or couldn't for whatever reasons. That's the important part though, they had their reasons, but they tried.

ESP might be a "band-aid" for wet weather driving but just because Martin and his family can't stomp it in the wet without having ESP kick in is no reason to come back and say that ESP is not enough and AWD is now needed. AWD cars crash too, and in most cases it's driver error, drive or no drive to the front wheels. "Feeling safer" and "being safer" are two entirely different things.

There have been many good points in this thread and most were not from Martin, despite his good input. Despite the fact it's gone off topic it's still a good read, and frankly any thread that stays on topic is just going to die anyway. It's gone from a highly unlikely transaxle set up to talk about DSG and why they should be introduced, whilst others saying they never will be because it's Holden (Martin being one of them), to talk of Holden now needing AWD again.

Holden and HSV will build what they think will return the highest profit for investment whilst still maintaining their reputation, not what the vocal fan base wants.

[Martin_D]

Holden and HSV will build what they think will return the highest profit for investment, not what the vocal fan base wants.

Which is exactly why brand loyalty of any type is misguided IMO :)

[Evman]

Which is exactly why brand loyalty of any type is misguided IMO :)

Agreed, but people like to have favourites and are happy to make sacrifices to maintain them. If everyone was completely logical about it then everyone would also be barracking for the footy team on the top of the ladder, regardless of who it is.

[csv rulz]

Agreed, but people like to have favourites and are happy to make sacrifices to maintain them. If everyone was completely logical about it then everyone would also be barracking for the footy team on the top of the ladder, regardless of who it is.

No way in hell I am ever baracking for Collingwood

[VX11SS]

Just a quick question - is the transaxle in the Corvette not based on the T56?
why would HSV need to go to an outside supplier for the transaxle anyhow if this is the case, surely use the Diff/transaxle from the Corvette and then modify the floor pan etc.

Not that I think this is likely to happen - unless .... this could be development for the new gen 6 Camaro on the Alpha? platform that is meant to coming out in 3 or 4 years.

[bouka]

My misunderstanding then, but maybe you should re-read what you wrote and see how easy it is to think that you were essentially calling people in this thread ignorant, stupid, d**k measurers and stubborn, and from what I can see that's the only name calling in this thread. Is that what you meant by the sort of direction these types of threads usually go down?

If that is the way you misconstrued it then i offer my apologies. My comments were aimed at specific people and the general trend of recent times but i see what you are saying.

Are you serious? Do you really think that the majority of us just bend over for Holden and HSV and accept what they give us as golden? If anything, we, the fan base, are the biggest bunch of whingers out there. If HSV doesn't meet our hopes we complain. If FPV does something better than HSV we complain (ie Black Series show car anyone??). FPV released a blown V8 for no significant added cost, yet HSV has had two at their disposal for years without bringing them here. There were and are a lot of unhappy Holden/HSV fans regarding that, and there were and are a lot of people happy to voice their disappointment. We're all saying what we want, but that isn't going to make Holden and HSV built it.

Maybe, however, Holden and HSV aren't pushing the envelope just now because they were almost sold off thanks to GM. One of many possible reasons. Not to mention the fact that Holden had their AWD range, they pushed the envelope as far as the money men said they could in that regard. It failed. HSV tried too. It failed. Sure they coulda woulda shoulda built a manual version, or one that didn't have all open diffs, or one that was several hundred kilograms lighter, but they didn't or couldn't for whatever reasons. That's the important part though, they had their reasons, but they tried.

ESP might be a "band-aid" for wet weather driving but just because Martin and his family can't stomp it in the wet without having ESP kick in is no reason to come back and say that ESP is not enough and AWD is now needed. AWD cars crash too, and in most cases it's driver error, drive or no drive to the front wheels. "Feeling safer" and "being safer" are two entirely different things.

There have been many good points in this thread and most were not from Martin, despite his good input. Despite the fact it's gone off topic it's still a good read, and frankly any thread that stays on topic is just going to die anyway. It's gone from a highly unlikely transaxle set up to talk about DSG and why they should be introduced, whilst others saying they never will be because it's Holden (Martin being one of them), to talk of Holden now needing AWD again.

Holden and HSV will build what they think will return the highest profit for investment whilst still maintaining their reputation, not what the vocal fan base wants.

Whinging and whining is one thing, and i certainly have done (and do) my fair share. The point i am making is that if we, as consumers, constantly accept the products offered and continuosly make excuses (some more than others) for the lack of features we get "marketed" then nothing will change.

FPV went out on a limbe and spent a significant amount of money on the SC GT (not a ford and holden thing, but using it as an example) because their customer base told them continuosly they had to. There market is smaller than HSV's and yet they delivered (in context).

As a consumer of local product on a very regular and short interval it is frustrating to see excuses about size of market and cost of vehicle. A conversation for another time.

My apologies for taking the thread of topic (because that hadnt happened).

[Martin_D]

Agreed, but people like to have favourites and are happy to make sacrifices to maintain them. If everyone was completely logical about it then everyone would also be barracking for the footy team on the top of the ladder, regardless of who it is.

Agreed too!
The difference is the footy teams all aspire to be top of the table and every year engineer a long term plan to help them get there.
They do more than just try and keep a constant membership, the try and win the top level prize.....even Port :lol:

[bouka]

Agreed too!
The difference is the footy teams all aspire to be top of the table and every year engineer a long term plan to help them get there.
They do more than just try and keep a constant membership, the try and win the top level prize.....even Port :lol:

That analogy sums it up very well Martin.

What I was trying to get at but its been one of those days.

[Martin_D]

I like progress, thats me, possibly the majority are different. Folks as a rule dont like change, and thats fair enough.

[Evman]

I'm all for improvement. Neither Holden or HSV have a product good enough for me to get a loan out to purchase one however. A decent DSG might do it so long as the a-pillars took a diet, along with the rest of the car. In the mean time I'm happy enough to continue driving my almost decade old car around :lol:

HSV I'm sure would argue that they've been doing a hell of a lot to win top prize (or in the HSV/FPV battle, maintain it) but they've changed tactics and gone for technological gimmicks (in my opinion at least) like the track/data logging software, MRC and that braking "technology" they use to prevent the car from over speeding with cruise control on. All of questionable importance, function and need, but all selling points none the less.

FPV on the other hand developed stonking motor; a throwback to the good ol' days when HSV unveiled the 300kw GTS, vastly out powering anything we'd seen from the locals before. If that turns out to be enough to give HSV a scare in the sales department, then HSV might start to reconsider their decision to leave power largely alone and look at other areas to improve. However, if the HSV/FPV sales ratio remains fairly steady, HSV is just as likely to continue on their current program and carry on with the gimmicks. The only way HSV would listen to any of us is if we left en masse to FPV or other competitors.

[sjhugh]

I used to spend a lot of time voicing that Holden and HSV need to improve and stay in touch with the pack but was consistently blown out of the water by the fanboys that I can’t be bothered any more. I voice my opinion these days with my cheque book.

One thing I will say though and this has come from dealers I talk to. It doesn’t matter what the bulk of the Holden fan base says, if here is a reflection of their purchasing power then most are not buying new cars so neither Holden or HSV care.

Some of these complaints should be made to the Used Car Dealers, I’m sure they could use the laugh.

DSG is a good idea, just for the fact it's an improvement in the right direction.

.

[bouka]

I used to spend a lot of time voicing that Holden and HSV need to improve and stay in touch with the pack but was consistently blown out of the water by the fanboys that I can’t be bothered any more. I voice my opinion these days with my cheque book.

One thing I will say though and this has come from dealers I talk to. It doesn’t matter what the bulk of the Holden fan base says, if here is a reflection of their purchasing power then most are not buying new cars so neither Holden or HSV care.

Some of these complaints should be made to the Used Car Dealers, I’m sure they could use the laugh.

.

i am fast reaching the same point.

My cheque book has already spoken.

Shame though, as i would have thought there would have been a greater understanding.

[Evman]

Some of us would rather not spend $60-80,000 just to make a point to Holden or HSV. Like I said, I'm happy enough to carry on with what I have but if Holden or HSV released something worthwhile I'd be all over it. They don't have anything, so they wont be getting my money.

[sjhugh]

Some of us would rather not spend $60-80,000 just to make a point to Holden or HSV. Like I said, I'm happy enough to carry on with what I have but if Holden or HSV released something worthwhile I'd be all over it. They don't have anything, so they wont be getting my money.

As a non purchaser of new Commodores, it would be interesting to know what it would take Holden to produce to turn you around. I’m sure they would welcome new private buyers, it would be a change from the usual fleet market sales.



i am fast reaching the same point.

My cheque book has already spoken.

Shame though, as i would have thought there would have been a greater understanding.

I hear what you are saying and I notice many other members who had a history of buying new Holdens and spent a lot of time here have fell silent over recent times as well.

.

[Evman]

I haven't had a serious think about it because I haven't really had to. If I was going to seriously consider a new Commodore (or HSV variant) it would have to have thinner a-pillars for one. I get to drive a WM Caprice at my leisure and jesus those things are thick. Weight reduction is another thing. I really don't think it'd need a huge amount to make a good difference. My car is 1771kg, with a large stereo, without a spare wheel. If they could get the sedans back to that then it would a be win, although I'd be after a wagon. However, if they remained more or less what they are now but introduced a quality DSG I'd put my name down for a white Tourer tomorrow.

[steve_t]

You'll be happy about the upcoming aluminium bonnet and boot then :goodjob:

[bouka]

Some of us would rather not spend $60-80,000 just to make a point to Holden or HSV. Like I said, I'm happy enough to carry on with what I have but if Holden or HSV released something worthwhile I'd be all over it. They don't have anything, so they wont be getting my money.

I too would be genuinely interested to hear what it would take to get you part with your hard earned.

I was a little late!

Your thoughts and feelings toward it is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. You could if you wanted but won't because the product is not offering what you believe it should.

I look forward to having another cold drink and discussing this further next time I am out your way again.

[Evman]

Definitely mate :)

[VYSHSV8]

I too would be genuinely interested to hear what it would take to get you part with your hard earned.

I was a little late!

Your thoughts and feelings toward it is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. You could if you wanted but won't because the product is not offering what you believe it should.

I look forward to having another cold drink and discussing this further next time I am out your way again.
Yeh well hurry up :):)

[planetdavo]

Interesting reading threads that have gone in the direction this one has.
What needs to be done is to separate genuine potential buyers from the tyre kickers, and to separate legitimate expectations in the price bracket from dreamer wish lists.
But, as always, they will NEVER please everyone. Some people want an expensive dsg gearbox, some people want a (more) stonking motor, some people want more luxury, some people want more style, some people want a light weight "stripper" club racer, some people want more "tech", and some people want most of the above but at a similar price to now...:confused:

[Martin_D]

I think if they just addressed some of the basic problems some of us would be happier. Nicer manual gearbox, fix the rear end so it doesnt tramp to pieces, use better tailshaft bolts that dont fall out, fit a glovebox light, and maybe a boot trim. An auto and an engine that can keep up with Ford...You know Davo, the high end things that only enthusiasts need.

[planetdavo]

I think if they just addressed some of the basic problems some of us would be happier. Nicer manual gearbox, fix the rear end so it doesnt tramp to pieces, use better tailshaft bolts that dont fall out, fit a glovebox light, and maybe a boot trim. An auto and an engine that can keep up with Ford...You know Davo, the high end things that only enthusiasts need.

As you said, SOME would. The rest will just continue their :bawl:.

[Wiked VE]

I think if they just addressed some of the basic problems some of us would be happier. Nicer manual gearbox, fix the rear end so it doesnt tramp to pieces, use better tailshaft bolts that dont fall out, fit a glovebox light, and maybe a boot trim. An auto and an engine that can keep up with Ford...You know Davo, the high end things that only enthusiasts need.

well said, i dont think a major overhaul is required just current ones refined and holden/hsv needs to go back to its roots ie beating ford. seems like in the last few years they have slipped on their performance goals. Theres still no 6cyc to rival the xr6T no 8 to rival the new FPV GT being a true holden fan i find it rather unsettling to see the blue oval pullin away in the performance side of things n holden not caring

[steve_t]

well said, i dont think a major overhaul is required just current ones refined and holden/hsv needs to go back to its roots ie beating ford. seems like in the last few years they have slipped on their performance goals. Theres still no 6cyc to rival the xr6T no 8 to rival the new FPV GT being a true holden fan i find it rather unsettling to see the blue oval pullin away in the performance side of things n holden not caring

It's coming. You just have to wait a bit longer. From planning to production takes years and years. Obviously, they hadn't planned on doing it quite yet :1peek: HSV's upcoming supercharged 8 with an aluminium bonnet and boot to reduce weight should hopefully put it back on top.
On a side note, does the FPV GT have a glovebox light? :jester:

[sjhugh]

The original subject is dead and the thread has turned into a bit of a member’s wish list which is not a bad thing if members keep their desired improvements within the realm of practicality.



I haven't had a serious think about it because I haven't really had to. If I was going to seriously consider a new Commodore (or HSV variant) it would have to have thinner a-pillars for one. I get to drive a WM Caprice at my leisure and jesus those things are thick. Weight reduction is another thing. I really don't think it'd need a huge amount to make a good difference. My car is 1771kg, with a large stereo, without a spare wheel. If they could get the sedans back to that then it would a be win, although I'd be after a wagon. However, if they remained more or less what they are now but introduced a quality DSG I'd put my name down for a white Tourer tomorrow.


That is good feedback. I’ve never personally had a problem with the ‘A’ Pillars but I’m aware many do and it has been a cause for turn off for some potential consumers.

Your thoughts on weight reduction are spot on, it is an area I’ve often said needs addressing and I’d like to see some action taken. Hopefully Holden comes good with recent media speculation in this regard.

I’ll add one for myself. Stop dumbing down the cars after there initial release and the motoring media have done their reviews. Things like removing glovebox lights to save on production costs may only seem like a petty gripe but potential buyers check off these items with competing vehicles produced by other manufacturers and the tally adds up. I know PD once said all manufacturers do this but I’m not convinced. I take a lot of interest in what available on the market and adding a little here and there with each year model seems to be the norm, not taking little items away as Holden does. Look at an early release Series I Calais V and compare it to a late release Series I and you’ll see the difference.

.

[Martin_D]

HSV are easily creaming FPV in the sales stakes. They dont really - need - to do anything for the mainstream buyer to stay happy, as they are already happy and vote with their wallets it would seem

[sjhugh]

That may be true but you can’t afford to kill the donor car.

.

[Carby]

HSV are easily creaming FPV in the sales stakes. They dont really - need - to do anything for the mainstream buyer to stay happy, as they are already happy and vote with their wallets it would seem

And why not, seeing how a "lowly" SS beat the FPV GS around a racetrack in the latest MOTOR bang for your bucks tests (the GS was far quicker in the acceleration tests) , I'd put the E3 GTS to beat the FPV GT or F6 around any racetrack.

[Evman]

Complacency leads to bankruptcy. Just ask GM :lol:

[planetdavo]

I know PD once said all manufacturers do this but I’m not convinced. I take a lot of interest in what available on the market and adding a little here and there with each year model seems to be the norm, not taking little items away as Holden does. Look at an early release Series I Calais V and compare it to a late release Series I and you’ll see the difference.

.

Some things are far more obvious than others, but in most cases it will take trainspotters (and enthusiasts :hide:) to notice. Also, most people simply don't buy enough new cars to know what changes during the model run, so it means nothing to them really.
One glaring example from imported cars years ago was the serious spread of engine bays painted in non glossy paint, often even a completely different shade!
Other examples are the replacement of rear disc brakes with rear drums, because they are cheaper.
Besides obvious cost cutting for profit, it allows two things to happen. Either to keep price rises lower, or to allow the spec sheet to be shuffled with the least price increase possible.
It's pretty widespread, but more common in the "affordable" end of the range (for pretty obvious reasons).

[Martin_D]

One glaring example from imported cars years ago was the serious spread of engine bays painted in non glossy paint, often even a completely different shade! Other examples are the replacement of rear disc brakes with rear drums, because they are cheaper.

I will give you two examples of this Davo - the 'original' Holden Cruze with drum rear brakes that replaced the discs, and current Commodore.......:eek:

[sjhugh]

Some things are far more obvious than others, but in most cases it will take trainspotters (and enthusiasts :hide:) to notice. Also, most people simply don't buy enough new cars to know what changes during the model run, so it means nothing to them really.



That statement is dumb beyond words. Dumb, dumb, dumb which is indicative of most of your posts, make anything up for the sake of the argument.

I don’t have many car enthusiast as friends, nor do I have the car equivalent of trainspotters but the ones I have do buy new cars and they don’t care which has the biggest brakes or engine but they are smart enough to shop around and notice the Holden doesn’t have a glovebox light and the asian model at the dealership down the road has two.

They don’t walk into a dealership with their mind already made up to buy a Holden or Ford like the old days and they don’t have to buy a new vehicle every year to want to shop around for value and all the little bells and whistles add up to money well spent to the consumer whose primary interest is a car that resembles their lounge room.

Gees your posts dumb this Forum down.

.

[Xjas]

I don’t have many car enthusiast as friends, nor do I have the car equivalent of trainspotters but the ones I have do buy new cars and they don’t care which has the biggest brakes or engine but they are smart enough to shop around and notice the Holden doesn’t have a glovebox light and the asian model at the dealership down the road has two.

I have never checked for a glovebox light in any car I have ever bought but I see your point, although the japs do some funny cost cutting too, was it 2008ish the WRX dropped the 4/2 piston brake calipers in favor of a 2/1 piston set up, it may still stop good but does seem to be a step backwards technology wise.

[sjhugh]

I have never checked for a glovebox light in any car I have ever bought but I see your point,

I’m with you, I’ve never looked at a glovebox light either but I already know they are no longer in the Commodore, the same goes for the lights in the consoles that my earlier VE’s had. It was my Calais and later models that I noticed the biggest changes in.

Still that’s just pin pointing a few silly little lights, the point is buyers do compare features and have a much better understanding than PD gives them credit for.

They don’t need to be mechanically minded or performance orientated to do their home work and hunt out value for money and for most consumers it’s the appointments, features and up to date gismos that do it for them. Dumbing down models has a negative effect if a competitive vehicle is offering more.

Anyway I’ll leave it at that, I was just voicing the reasons I hear from family and friends when they talk about why they choose a particular vehicle. Sometimes I think PD is too close to Holden and can’t see the forest for the trees. Maybe he needs a career change to freshen his perception of what consumers really want.



although the japs do some funny cost cutting too, was it 2008ish the WRX dropped the 4/2 piston brake calipers in favor of a 2/1 piston set up, it may still stop good but does seem to be a step backwards technology wise.

That’s enough to almost make you want to buy an Evo X instead.:)

.

[jc_sv8]

Mine has a light in the glovebox, which shits on DSG, LS3 and rear mount gears - I'm never upgrading... :rofl:

[smokey777]

I don’t have many car enthusiast as friends, nor do I have the car equivalent of trainspotters but the ones I have do buy new cars and they don’t care which has the biggest brakes or engine but they are smart enough to shop around and notice the Holden doesn’t have a glovebox light and the asian model at the dealership down the road has two.

.

i understand too mate, i was dissapointed when i got my SS VE. compared to my VY SS the VE was like a executive with a V8. it was just little things that annoyed me like no speed dependent wipers, glovebox light, speed dependant volume, nice pedals, NICE cloth seats, it just felt cheaper. i have since traded it in as i need a "daily" (cover lots of ks now for work) and to be honest i got a 90tsi VW golf but i feel ive traded up i mean power & performance is nowhere near ute lol but its such a nicer & better car :1peek: that im quite enjoying it :)

[Martin_D]

That’s enough to almost make you want to buy an Evo X instead.:)
.

Mind a stock MY11 WRX might have 2 spot brakes, but its also a mid 13 second car out the box that handles brilliantly....and is the same RRP as the very cheapest, lowest rent Omega that you can buy. Both are $39,990 list. One is substantially better value than the other. Neither have a DCT :lol:

[Martin_D]

ESP might be a "band-aid" for wet weather driving but just because Martin and his family can't stomp it in the wet without having ESP kick in is no reason to come back and say that ESP is not enough and AWD is now needed. AWD cars crash too, and in most cases it's driver error, drive or no drive to the front wheels. "Feeling safer" and "being safer" are two entirely different things.

AWD does make me 'feel' safer and actually 'is' safer (four wheels providing driving thrust and friction index not two) when the missus is driving the car with the kids on board.

However when its my shot, 2WD is simply - not - fast enough for the sort of driving I do. Time Attack and Hillclimbs etc. in the series I race the Commodores arent in the hunt, they are simply dont have enough grip or handle properly flailing around seconds off the pace. They are probably great going to the shops in, but thats not my application. So rather than being frightened of 'losing the arse' when 'stomping it in the wet' I am more frightened of 'definitely losing the race'. Horses for courses.

[Soopy]

AWD does make me 'feel' safer and actually 'is' safer (four wheels providing driving thrust and friction index not two) when the missus is driving the car with the kids on board.

However when its my shot, 2WD is simply - not - fast enough for the sort of driving I do. Time Attack and Hillclimbs etc. in the series I race the Commodores arent in the hunt, they are simply dont have enough grip or handle properly flailing around seconds off the pace. They are probably great going to the shops in, but thats not my application. So rather than being frightened of 'losing the arse' when 'stomping it in the wet' I am more frightened of 'definitely losing the race'. Horses for courses.

At the end of the day, the car is only as fast as the noddy behind the wheel.
For 90% of car enthusiasts it's probably not going to make a great deal of difference whether its AWD or not.

I own a Subaru and a Commodore. Subaru is like a go-kart in comparison though I don't like how it doesn't 'ease' up to its limit. It feels like it wants more and more then all of a sudden tries to kill you. This admittedly is the fault of myself with the modifications I've made to it. But to be frank, standard it was god awefull.

The SS makes no secrets about its lack of grip.

[Martin_D]

I own a Subaru and a Commodore. Subaru is like a go-kart in comparison though I don't like how it doesn't 'ease' up to its limit. It feels like it wants more and more then all of a sudden tries to kill you.

Sounds like nasty setup to me....there isnt an easier car to slide at the limit that I have found...and I mean 160km/h plus sliding not noddy stuff. However mine is a GRB with factory front LSD and properly matched suspension etc.

[Soopy]

Mmm, I guess its just what you're used to. I don't drive it much these days.
It will go around a corner faster and flatter then the SS by a mile.

I will say its a head f)ck trying not to pile on the opposite lock as you would in a RWD car.

[Martin_D]

I will say its a head f)ck trying not to pile on the opposite lock as you would in a RWD car.

I suppose you need to get to grips with the fact that you only need to counter-steer to the point where the front of the car is heading in the desired direction. You wont need more than half a turn of lock or so to get it done in higher speed corners - normally

[Evman]

Lol Martin even a 2wd car has 4 wheels supplying a friction index, as you put it. As I said, just because you can't stomp a 2wd car without esp kicking in doesn't make it less safe. If you and your wife want to drive like idiots on the road and push the car so hard that you're having esp kick in then you're obviously just going to crash or cause a crash one day anyway. Granted off street use has its merits but don't kid yourself about the street use. Give me a 2wd with esp overall awd without it, for street use only, any day.

[Martin_D]

Lol Martin even a 2wd car has 4 wheels supplying a friction index, as you put it. As I said, just because you can't stomp a 2wd car without esp kicking in doesn't make it less safe. If you and your wife want to drive like idiots on the road and push the car so hard that you're having esp kick in then you're obviously just going to crash or cause a crash one day anyway. Granted off street use has its merits but don't kid yourself about the street use. Give me a 2wd with esp overall awd without it, for street use only, any day.

You can have the 2WD with ESP just prepare to be SLOW in any real world driving condition. Flick through any Motor or Wheels to see the 'Big Boofy Ozzie Blowa Hero' comparisons and see these 'Unbridled 450kw MONSTAS' running stock car 13 second times :lol:

[macca_779]

Lol Martin even a 2wd car has 4 wheels supplying a friction index, as you put it. As I said, just because you can't stomp a 2wd car without esp kicking in doesn't make it less safe. If you and your wife want to drive like idiots on the road and push the car so hard that you're having esp kick in then you're obviously just going to crash or cause a crash one day anyway. Granted off street use has its merits but don't kid yourself about the street use. Give me a 2wd with esp overall awd without it, for street use only, any day.

I'll agree with martin here as I own both too. The subi is simple better at holding itself on the road in inclement conditions. 130km/h in torrential down poor in my car is to sketchy so I slow down. In my subi it laughs at it. You can feel the bias move around but it remains stable. In fact the most annoying part is the cruise control disabling when it detects slip in these conditions. Requires a key cycle to reset it.

As far as track speed goes it's the vehicle weight that allows the subies to do so well I reckon. The traction AWD offers can't have the greatest influence over maximum lateral grip when there is no delta speed. It's great for power out if you are brutal on the throttle. But that's all really. In fact I can out handle my mate in his MY09 WRX no problem in my fat rig. I am working harder to do it mind you.


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- Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

[bouka]

They would scare the crap out of the awd jap and euro 2door purpose design and built sports cars in a roll on.

Sure, the Ozzie things won't get the benefits of awd but the look on the face of the GTR or Porche Turbo owner will be priceless.

Almost as good as the look on the face of the Ozzie cars owner when he tries to get some semblance of power down through the first decent bend.

Give me an overpowered tail happy straight line (roll on) car any day. Nothing let's you know the old ticker is still in ok nick.

I don't need a g force display to let me know what the car is doing. I figure there has been some decent g's generated when I am steering trough the passenger window.

[calais190]

Like always, we end up comparing apples and oranges. Not everyone wants, likes or needs a car to behave perfectly for track conditions. There is no doubt an awd car is going to be notably better to track than a rwd car. GTR vs ZR1 is a good example. Both of which are rear boxed vehicles. Thus, for a family driven "shopping cart" as many have put it, will surely benefit from a rear mounted box as it will allow it to handle much better than at present. For the performance enthusiasts who like to buy local cars, it will be great to reap the rewards of advancement in technology. For street use, they're already amazing, the extra efforts will only contribute to a better overall package.

[Martin_D]

Good point Calais190, but I think the argument here is that the local manufacturers actually need to make a proper performance car, not half done shots at it, and most of all move with the times. Its not 1970 anymore......:eek:
A DSG would be nice and bring the current stuff up to the rest of the world, but there are more pressing problems afoot.

Maybe this guy has the answer?
OhlceX-hOP4
All that stuff that Ken Block does, thats powersliding.....

[Soopy]

Good point Calais190, but I think the argument here is that the local manufacturers actually need to make a proper performance car, not half done shots at it, and most of all move with the times. Its not 1970 anymore......:eek:
A DSG would be nice and bring the current stuff up to the rest of the world, but there are more pressing problems afoot.

Maybe this guy has the answer?
OhlceX-hOP4
All that stuff that Ken Block does, thats powersliding.....


lol wtf is that kid smoking?

The whole drifting thing shits me.
Everyone in their VN manger thinks they can drift when they tramp it out of a corner and get a little sideways.

You gotta be sideways BEFORE the corner people.

As for the Australian performance car market...
I think they're building "muscle" cars more then performance cars. Look and sound tough but that's about it.
And for 90% of the demograph that's what sells. I don't think we have a big enough population to support a real performance vehicle being locally built.

[Martin_D]

lol wtf is that kid smoking?

He has concerns demands and questions regarding the all wheel drive lobby versus rear wheel drive. All legitimate stuff.......
He will send you a toon and you will shine. It has two yellow dots.....

[Martin_D]

I figure there has been some decent g's generated when I am steering trough the passenger window.

Living it large 13 seconds at a time :hide:
Sik Dori kent :lol:

[bouka]

Am yet to see a private one run a 13 Martin!

Surely you have better things to do then pester me on a Sunday yound fella.

I have been busy convincing myself of what I wrote.

Now go away, I have more convincing to do.

[Martin_D]

Cmon dont be such a touchy Ford driver....
I have a couple of those blown babies to tune this week, so I must put my blue hat on :eek:

[bouka]

Cmon dont be such a touchy Ford driver....
I have a couple of those blown babies to tune this week, so I must put my blue hat on :eek:

No touchiness here. Tongue firmly planted in cheek (keep it clean Martin).

[Martin_D]

No touchiness here. Tongue firmly planted in cheek (keep it clean Martin).

Thank god, you kind of sounded like Davo for a moment there......actually sorry, no one deserves that tag :confused:

[Evman]

You can have the 2WD with ESP just prepare to be SLOW in any real world driving condition.

Or maybe I just wont drive like a tool on the street and wont have any problems at all :idea: The number of old idiots that try and red light race me is ridiculous. The last one was in an X5 :lmao: If his mid life crisis makes him think he needs to race me to prove something, he can have the win :goodjob: If ESP is a bandaid fix and AWD is the solution, there would be no need for ESP on an AWD car.

[bouka]

Thank god, you kind of sounded like Davo for a moment there......actually sorry, no one deserves that tag :confused:

A little light hearted sarcasm and some cheeky rhetoric (that I thought you would have picked up on or ran with) and all of a sudden we have some catastrophic comparisons that would even the hardest of skinned laying in the gutter with terminal wounds.

I am mortified. No other word for it.

[macca_779]

Or maybe I just wont drive like a tool on the street and wont have any problems at all :idea: The number of old idiots that try and red light race me is ridiculous. The last one was in an X5 :lmao: If his mid life crisis makes him think he needs to race me to prove something, he can have the win :goodjob: If ESP is a bandaid fix and AWD is the solution, there would be no need for ESP on an AWD car.

AWD ain't the solution always. As an experiment/screwing around thinking of this thread I induced a fail bit of understeer in my subi today while entering a curve at around 50 with a wet patch caused by sprinklers on half way through it. Foot planted entering the patch expecting it to let the AWD do it's thing and while it did bias some power rearward there must of not been enough difference between front and rear for it to really do anything worthwhile. As a result it continued to understeer unchanged but did drive out of it with the front end slipping somewhat controlled. A RWD car would of pushed a little more understeer initially but would of transited into oversteer once the rears hit the wet (always my preference and why I despise FWD cars). A car with ESP would of nipped it in the bud quick smart regardless of the driving wheels.


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- Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

[Uncle Tone]

All I want is for my car to not spin the wheels at 80 or 100 when I give it some welly......wouldn't happen with all wheel drive.

Imagine what the feeling of acceleration with AWD would be like in 2nd gear in my car......OOOOOH BABY!! :bow:

[macca_779]

All I want is for my car to not spin the wheels at 80 or 100 when I give it some welly......wouldn't happen with all wheel drive.

Imagine what the feeling of acceleration with AWD would be like in 2nd gear in my car......OOOOOH BABY!! :bow:

Be great if it did break all 4 into wheelspin above 100 ;-)


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- Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

[Martin_D]

If ESP is a bandaid fix and AWD is the solution, there would be no need for ESP on an AWD car.

There is no need for ESP on an AWD car. Its there for the nummers that have no idea how to drive and have to see it on the spec sheet. In fact ESP on any car is a patch not a fix, its not needed :cool:


The last one was in an X5 :lmao: If his mid life crisis makes him think he needs to race me to prove something, he can have the win :goodjob:

No wonder you are bitter. A pensioner chopped you in an X5. Just let him know you are trying to get the numbers up in the rear wheel drive lobby

[Evman]

I guess there's also no need for ABS, EBD, and all those other proven active safety features then? Good to see the arrogant and narrow minded Street Tuna still remains in there somewhere :jerk: Remember Martin, we're talking about road cars to cater for everyone here, not track cars.

[VYSHSV8]

All I want is for my car to not spin the wheels at 80 or 100 when I give it some welly......wouldn't happen with all wheel drive.

Imagine what the feeling of acceleration with AWD would be like in 2nd gear in my car......OOOOOH BABY!! :bow:


How would you know what that feeling is like Tone breaking into wheel spin :lol:
1. You don't go over 80
2. You don't use more than 30% throttle and last but not least

3. You are the driver
:lmao:

[bouka]

How would you know what that feeling is like Tone breaking into wheel spin :lol:
1. You don't go over 80
2. You don't use more than 30% throttle and last but not least

3. You are the driver
:lmao:

Last time UT's car saw 30% or more throttle I was driving it!

It does brake traction freely at most speeds.

AWD and DSG is for cardigan wearing nerds :hide:

[Evman]

Not worth it. Deleted.

[VYSHSV8]

Last time UT's car saw 30% or more throttle I was driving it!

It does brake traction freely at most speeds.

AWD and DSG is for cardigan wearing nerds :hide:

Exactly my point mate Tone wasnt driving :):)

[duke5700]

Bah having an extra two wheels driving does nothing for the amount of grip. GTR with 600kw still tries to fry the brains out of the tyres as it comes up. At least in a 2wd only one set of wheels are spinning :eek:

You could buy a Coupe4.. with a DSG and a turbo.. that would be interesting. Still a porker of a vehicle. Nothing is ever going to be nimble when it weighs in at 1650kgs or so.

We all need 150kw awd shopping wagons so we can be bored to death while covering ground at a faster that desired speeds.

[bouka]

Not worth it. Deleted.

Thats not like you Evan.

[bouka]

Exactly my point mate Tone wasnt driving :):)

I know this is hard to believe Drew, but Tone does alright when he wants to.

[VYSHSV8]

I know this is hard to believe Drew, but Tone does alright when he wants to.

Don't say that we can't have anyone think that Tone actually drives the car.......................hard..

Never Never Never :);) :lol:

[myss427]

Put some sticky tyres on it, I have a big block torana with over 500 at the tyres and 1350kgs and it hooks up with drag radials. And the Nittos arn't too bad as a tyre for cruizing around except they whare.

[vessloveit]

Why are there so many irrelevant posts in this thread I have lost count on the number of posts that have nothing to do with rear mount gears in HSV's.

[Martin_D]

I think because its an irrelevent thread......most of the forum has figured out HSV arent making a whole new car to put a DSG in the back of :)
Some good discussion though - and if anyone has some new facts to bring to light re: rear mount transmission HSV then please do!