Cammed but no lifters or rockers

[Jesterarts]

I have a VZ clubby that's been cammed with a 23*/23* cam, it's got Higgins LS6 heads (243 Cast), double row chains, etc.

But, I just recently found out that when the cam/heads were done the lifters and rockers were not replaced.

So, how worried should I be?

I don't drive the car hard alot, but since finding out about the lifters and rocker not being done I've found myself holding back on the loud pedal.

Is it alright to run it as is for the time or should I be getting this sorted out asap?

Cheers,

[duke5700]

You don't always have to do the lifters, but seems madness seeing as the heads where off. The rockers will be fine, I can't imagine the seat pressures being off the planet.

[Soopy]

Out of intrest, at what point should the rockers be replaced?

[duke5700]

Now that is a bone of contention...

[Soopy]

I'm just going to do it to be a sikkent.

Too many people with massive 220/220's getting around saying 400kw is mint with stock everything.

[Jesterarts]

You don't always have to do the lifters, but seems madness seeing as the heads where off. The rockers will be fine, I can't imagine the seat pressures being off the planet.

Yeah I know! I was very surprised to find this out but the previous owner apparently didn't have enough budget to do them? :confused:

But yeah, I'm just looking for opinions if I should be looking to get them sorted ASAP or if I can wait until they become an issue ie get loud.

And I'm assuming that the lifters SHOULDN'T fail all of a sudden? I will get ticking that gets louder with time until it fails right?

This was the case with my E30 BMW but I'm not sure if the same applies in this case.

Cheers,

[Soopy]

Yeah I know! I was very surprised to find this out but the previous owner apparently didn't have enough budget to do them? :confused:

But yeah, I'm just looking for opinions if I should be looking to get them sorted ASAP or if I can wait until they become an issue ie get loud.

And I'm assuming that the lifters SHOULDN'T fail all of a sudden? I will get ticking that gets louder with time until it fails right?

This was the case with my E30 BMW but I'm not sure if the same applies in this case.

Cheers,

Safer is always better then sorry IMO.

[VYSS5700]

I wouldn't be too worried mate. The standard Lifters and rockers are pretty strong.

I have plenty of mates that have a cam done and have left the standard Lifters and rockers in and have had no dramas. And they give them an absolute flogging (drags, drift events etc..)

[Jesterarts]

Safer is always better then sorry IMO.

I agree with this mentality. But is "safe" to do them now even though they are not showing any signs of an issue or is "safe" getting them done at the first sign of noise.

[duke5700]

The lifters do fail, but they also fail with stock cams. Spinning in the buckets and whatever else. Its a gamble you play with any modified engine, at what point do you stop upgrading parts?

The rev limiter is probably set quite friendly anyway as it will have stock rods and bolts.

If the car has been done correctly I think you will find you should get a good service life out of your lifters.

If not your up for bout $250 worth of gaskets and bolts to get to them. Then add say $600ish for link bar lifters or whatever plus labour.

[macca_779]

More than 90% of cammed cars are kicking around with stock lifters. They're not bad for OEM.

[Soopy]

My idea of safe is to not chance a catastrophic failure.
I've no idea on your setup, or even the condition so take that with a grain of salt. I just buy some morell's or likewise and knock it on the head. Can't hurt.

[whitels1ss]

More than 90% of cammed cars are kicking around with stock lifters. They're not bad for OEM.
Yeah, I have heard that before as well. :)

[macca_779]

Well I've still got stock lifters. Running fairly heavy dual springs. I buzz it to the limiter often. No failure yet after 4 years with these springs. 190000k's on the lifters

[Soopy]

What cam profile Macca?

[duke5700]

:lol: 220/220 loves it

[macca_779]

What cam profile Macca?

It's a 220 on xers. But that isn't the main part of the equation. A cam is a cam, ramp profile makes a bit of difference as the acceleration off the lobe is quite sharp but moving the spring is the biggest load on a lifter. For that my doubles give the lifters a fair bit of shit to which they're still going fine.

[Soopy]

Okay, I've always thought that the bigger the lift and the harder the spring the more force you're going to have on the lifter/rod. That and then extra RPM.

[macca_779]

Okay, I've always thought that the bigger the lift and the harder the spring the more force you're going to have on the lifter/rod. That and then extra RPM.

That's right but the standard lifter has proven time and time again it's up for it with heavy springs fitted. Sure extra lift does add more weight. But I don't believe an extra couple of dozen thou of lift makes for a deal breaker. If it were that close to borderline you'd see them fail all the time. Fact is how often do we genuinely hear of collapsed lifters.


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[Soopy]

That's right but the standard lifter has proven time and time again it's up for it with heavy springs fitted. Sure extra lift does add more weight. But I don't believe an extra couple of dozen thou of lift makes for a deal breaker. If it were that close to borderline you'd see them fail all the time. Fact is how often do we genuinely hear of collapsed lifters.


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Fair enough.
I think I'd do it for peace of mind and nothing more.

I probably should mention that I'd do it myself, so its slightly cheaper in that respect.

[macca_779]

Fair enough.
I think I'd do it for peace of mind and nothing more.

I probably should mention that I'd do it myself, so its slightly cheaper in that respect.

Look there is a good chance I'll throw some in mine at the end of the year. Not because they are rooted though, but because I think they will be getting pretty tierd after 12 years of being flogged and I suspect the rollers may be blemished which is a consequence of using XER's which are damm aggressive. Inspecting them when I lift the heads will tell me the story and weather or not they are done and dusted. But as of yesterday when I buzzed her up to 6800 after a few weeks away. Still feels solid up there.

Moral (Boom boom) of the story. Lifters aren't a mandatory part for every cam job. It's only of late people are changing them more commonly. What brought that on. I have no idea.

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[peter b]

To answer the rocker side.
Have seen factory rockers cope a beating and keep going but there will be a point where the roller rockers would be advisable
1) Using heads with Bronze guides instead of steel
2) SOLID Camshaft
There are advantages of roller rockers so it not they are a bad upgrade but they won't net a recognizable increase in power. People seem to be a fan of 1.8 rockers but have seen time and time again when going to an aftermarket camshaft they drop off really quickly and fall over in the top end.
That being said 1.8's with FACTORY camshaft do net a reasonable result but going bigger cam nets more.
The standard rockers can cause damage to top of the valve however generally usually caused by incorrect valvetrain geometry i.e incorrect length pushrod.
My opinion unless you have aftermarket heads with bronze guides or running a solid camshaft roller rockers aren't worth the money and is money better spent on other parts.

[Wonky]

I know of a few people who've spun a lifter in the bucket with bigger cams and done some relatively expensive damage, though it seems to be more on the 6L engines i.e. L98/L76, so maybe their setup hasn't got quite the safety margin built in??? :confused:

[whitels1ss]

I know of a few people who've spun a lifter in the bucket with bigger cams and done some relatively expensive damage, though it seems to be more on the 6L engines i.e. L98/L76, so maybe their setup hasn't got quite the safety margin built in??? :confused:
Hey I have seen some posts on that as well but as far as I have seen it has mainly been going on with pretty heavy valve springs installed?

[Wonky]

I'm not sure what springs they had in at the time.

[VendeTTR]

I still had stock lifters in my VT with .650 dual springs and a 235/240 with LSK/XER lobes. Revved to 7k no dramas and no noises from the lifters. In saying that i did order replacements for it for piece of mind and the fact the heads were coming off anyways.

I guess more and more people are changing them because they are cheap due to the strong aussie dollar and the fact that our engines arent getting any younger.

[boggers007]

I'm not sure what springs they had in at the time.

When i was speaking to my tuner when i was weighing up all the cam options he was saying that the lifters he has seen break engines are usually L76 DOD ones as the person didnt remove them and was basically playing with fire due to them being weaker then the others.

[Wonky]

When i was speaking to my tuner when i was weighing up all the cam options he was saying that the lifters he has seen break engines are usually L76 DOD ones as the person didnt remove them and was basically playing with fire due to them being weaker then the others.

They are certainly more prone to failure due to the 8 collapsible lifters on the AFM cylinders, which is why I had mine done for safety even though my cam is relatively small (223/223 @ 115) and possibly could have survived without. However, the one motor I know of (mate of mine, have heard of others though most shops keep it hush-hush) was definitely an L98.

[RUN41T]

My Ls1 had a 224/228 on 110LSA, Stock lifters and rockers

Copped a smashing at the track into the 11's, Me and my 7200rpm limiter were well acquainted , No drama, and its still kicking around now with a young bloke behind the wheel.

I wouldn't stress

[Rhc 1]

I had my c4b motor rebuilt with new cam, head work, arp bolts etc etc from memory a $7800 job anyway awhile after I had it back I was complaining that it had some valve train noise and the tuner admited that they hadnt replaced the lifters, I hit the roof and really let him have it, saying he should have done them when the customer asks for a full perfomance orientated rebuild on a 160k motor. Anyway he agreed to do them his cost. The point of this post is when I got it back with new liftters as the only change I could really feel a difference in the power, also the low speed driving was much rougher just like it had an even bigger cam in it.

[10sec_rx7]

Out of intrest, at what point should the rockers be replaced?

i ran 8.9@161 on stock rockers... nothing wrong with them, they are strong, the only thing that lets them down is the bearings in them but thats only after a lot of km...

[Soopy]

i ran 8.9@161 on stock rockers... nothing wrong with them, they are strong, the only thing that lets them down is the bearings in them but thats only after a lot of km...

What do you call allot of KM's Dale?

[10sec_rx7]

my clubby has 200k on it and they are still fine..

[Soopy]

Fair enough then, much after that and I guess you can't complain about replacing rockers.

[duke5700]

Would it be rude to ask how big the cam is in yours dale and how hard your turning it? :p

[10sec_rx7]

its got a mid 230's with .610 lift turning to 7000rpm.. i dont drive my cars easily..

dont get me wrong but if i pull the heads off it will get a new set of lifters in it

[duke5700]

Yeah mines very similar in specs, I've got stockys and YT's going to fiddle with both. I think Nick sourced me a set of Morels for the lifters.

I think I will be out of turbo before 7K though.

[stealth vn]

i ran 8.9@161 on stock rockers... nothing wrong with them, they are strong, the only thing that lets them down is the bearings in them but thats only after a lot of km...

CASE CLOSED........................


i had stock lifters running 232/234 cam 7200 limiter and she visited it a few times

[smokey777]

i think changing lifters is akin to the old debate of single or double row chains. me, i personally think standard lifters & single uprated chain are fine..

[Jesterarts]

Thanks for the responses guys. Put's my mind at easy. Until I find some spare cash to upgrade them I will just run with the stock ones.

Ok... not for a REAL noob question. I think I know the answer to the question but just wanted to check.

I have double row chains, would these have an effect on any other engine components in terms of increased wear or stress?

My predicted answer is no, but keen to hear from people who acutally know what they are talking about. :)

[10sec_rx7]

i think changing lifters is akin to the old debate of single or double row chains. me, i personally think standard lifters & single uprated chain are fine..

how many standard chains have you seen break? i havent seen any...

its like people saying you HAVE to change pushrods because the stock ones are weak.. ive seen 1 broken stock pushrod in the last 10 years, and that was on a car that suffered very very bad valve float and the owner wouldnt change the valve springs..

[smokey777]

yeah i was meaning as in LS2/L98 (later model) chain if you want to change at all i stuck with standard L98 in my VE

[macca_779]

Double rows are absolutely excessive IMO. I've heard of a couple break. But it's extremely rare. The early OEM ones do stretch a bit more than the later ones but still fail extremly rarely. Doubles just induce other issues that need to be catered for with the need to offset the oil pump.

[peter b]

Double row vs single row.
Only instance where I would say double row is mandatory would be circuit racing where you are doing lots of downshifts to slow the car down ie engine braking.
V8 brutes run the rollmaster dual row kits and funnily enough quite a few have broken :confused:
For a street car single row is ample won't have an issue

[macca_779]

Double row vs single row.
Only instance where I would say double row is mandatory would be circuit racing where you are doing lots of downshifts to slow the car down ie engine braking.
V8 brutes run the rollmaster dual row kits and funnily enough quite a few have broken :confused:
For a street car single row is ample won't have an issue

Anyone that uses pure engine braking on a track needs to learn to a lot about race craft. You must learn to match revs on down changes to maintain balance. I've seen novices using engine braking turn countless rear ends onto armco.


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[peter b]

Anyone that uses pure engine braking on a track needs to learn to a lot about race craft. You must learn to match revs on down changes to maintain balance. I've seen novices using engine braking turn countless rear ends onto armco.


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won't have argument out of me just stating what people do is all and in saying that they are even breaking dual rows so what does that say about their driving hmmmm
Just saying for circuit racing would be more comfortable with a dual row vs a single but for everyday/weekend street car with occasional run around the track etc single row is fine depending on the owners driving style that is