Diff problems at 175000km - 08 V8 Caprice.

[skip100]

I have a kind of a whistle, or squeal, and my dealer says that it's the diff. Car drives well other than the sound. They said they've never been able to rebuild one of these diffs yet, and it should be replaced.

I'm pretty sure my diff has never had any servicing done to it. I'm pretty sure the manual doesn't mention any regular lubing of the diff (correct?) Given that I'm a Hire Car driver, and do reasonably high kms, is it possible that if I had replaced the diff oil at certain intervals, I would not have this VERY EXPENSIVE problem now? Is it even possible to do an oil change, or is it completely sealed? (I forgot to ask the dealer all these questions!)

Greg.

[Northy]

You can change the diff oil but after high Km's you are going to start to get some failures. It's probably the diff centre, holmart have new centers for $495 and it's a straight swap.

[HRT 8]

A replacement 2.92 non LSD diff can be sourced for a very reasonable price.
Sub $500 easily for a low km unit.

Your expensive option as mentioned by your dealer would be for a new diff assembly which are around the $1400 mark plus install.

[skip100]

Thanks. I've already gotten a much better quote (than the dealer, and yes, it includes fitting), and that's even for an LSD. Waiting for a quote for a standard one. Also, as Northy said, they told me diffs can easily fail at around the time mine did, even if the oil is changed. That makes me feel a bit better. ;^)

I'll make some enquiries about low km used units as well.

Greg.

[Micks]

Thanks. I've already gotten a much better quote (than the dealer, and yes, it includes fitting), and that's even for an LSD. Waiting for a quote for a standard one. Also, as Northy said, they told me diffs can easily fail at around the time mine did, even if the oil is changed. That makes me feel a bit better. ;^)

I'll make some enquiries about low km used units as well.

Greg.

Have a very low K, std 2.92 @ a reasonable price, pm me for details.

Cheers
VYT

[dogsballs]

oil in diff should be done every 50,000km's. not hard to do, undo one bolt, let it drain. undo bigger filler bolt above it, pour in fluid till it starts to come out.

[skip100]

When I asked a transmission specialist whether I could consider replacing just the centre unit, he gave me a strange look, and then advised me that I should replace the whole differential, and the centre unit is "just a hemisphere".

I'm confused. In these pictures of "centre units", they look nothing like a hemisphere to me - they look more like a WHOLE sphere (if anything): http://holmart.com.au/online/prod174.htm

Why isn't anything simple?

Assuming those pictures are what you guys are recommending I replace, what stuff is NOT included, that this tranny specialist would ALSO replace?

Thanks again!

Greg.

[smokey777]

he means whole unit

[skip100]

On the Holmart web page, if those are whole differentials, why do Holmart call them "diff centers", and not just "diffs"?

Greg.

[mrcaprice]

Diff guy just wants his dollars just change the centre or go to a diff place get it recod up to you mate

[skip100]

This guy can recondition it, possibly. He said it's in the early stages of deterioration.

I'd still like an answer to my question: why do Holmart call it a "diff center", and not simply a "diff". What does a "whole diff" have that a "diff center" doesn't?

Thanks,
Greg.

[macca33]

Looking at the advertisement, it is just the term they use - some consider a 'diff' to be the entire thing - centre, housing, axle carriers, etc and the term is used loosely. The item as pictured is all that you'd need to replace and you'd be good to go.

cheers


EDIT - I'll withdraw all of that. Looking at their other ads, they describe other diffs as 'complete' assemblies, yet have the same picture. I'd give them a call to clarify the issue - it is confusing. :hide:

[skip100]

Thanks Macca.

You've all been very helpful indeed - I really appreciate it.

Greg.

[smokey777]

i just presumed they called them 'diff centers' as they are an independant rear end & it is the centre housing of the diff

[Wonky]

i just presumed they called them 'diff centers' as they are an independant rear end & it is the centre housing of the diff

Yeah, me too. I came from a background of solid rear axles so initially I found the "diff centre" terminology confusing too. I've come to understand that diff centre means the whole diff (housing plus internals) which is just a one hour bolt in replacement. To me that's the only way to go for standard ratios eg. 3.07 and 3.46 in pre VE, 2.92 and 3.45 in VE as often guys with 3.45/3.46 upgrade to 3.7/3.73/3.91/4.11 and sell off their old diff (centre) complete.

On my VZ SS I bought a 15,000km old 3.46 for $500, cost me $100 or so for labour to swap them and sold my 6,000km 3.07 LSD on eBay for around $400 so the upgrade really cost me SFA. Similarly on the ute I got an 1,800km old 3.45 centre for $500 and sold my low km 2.92 LSD for about half that to someone on here with a Caprice who wanted LSD.

[HRT 8]

Similarly on the ute I got an 1,800km old 3.45 centre for $500 and sold my low km 2.92 LSD for about half that to someone on here with a Caprice who wanted LSD.

Was a good diff too Wonks. Thanks.

[Wonky]

Good stuff!! Was hoping it was still good! :D

[skip100]

My car has an LSD diff. (it has the Y in the right place, apparently, although I haven't yet seen it for myself). Two independent mechanics have inspected it though.

However, when I asked for a quote for a new diff for my car from my dealer, going by by VIN, they say that the diff is NOT supposed to be LSD.

A diff specialist (as opposed to the original general tranny/diff specialist I took the car to) said that my car should not come with LSD as standard, but can be fitted with an LSD as a special order.

I've also been told that the LSD is twice as strong as the non-LSD. If this is true, and given that my LSD is starting to fail at 175,000/3.5 years, I'd hate to think how soon a non-LSD diff would fail.

I've actually already bought a slightly used non-LSD, but now I'm wondering whether I should bite the bullet and go for LSD instead, given that's what I already have.

Arrghhhh.

Greg.

[skip100]

Just a quick reply from my phone:
My car does NOT have LSD. I have now inspected the label myself.

I will have the used non-LSD unit installed afterall.

Greg.

[skip100]

When having someone else check it, it's probably safest to actually tell the mechanic to read out what it says. A general mechanic I took the car to saw "LSD", and assumed from that that it was an LSD diff. Even when I asked him whether it had the "Y", he said it did, but I don't really think he ever bothered to check that, because he was already convinced. He definitely wasn't lying, because he had absolutely nothing to gain - I had already told him he was not getting the job. Anyway, this is why I think, in hindsight, I should have simply asked the mechanic to read out what it said, without any form of prompting at all. This mechanic was VERY surprised to learn that it wasn't LSD - they were so sure that the V8s came with LSD.

Now, the tranny/diff specialist I also went to got it wrong as well. I suspect they just assumed it was an LSD, without checking. I know that they checked the ratio - I was there when they read it out (2.92). It was only after I told them I had purchased a low km non-LSD unit that they then told me the car had an LSD (and stronger) diff in it. It's possible they were trying to pull a fast one, but I think it was just sloppy incompetence.

The diff guy I contacted appears to have gotten it right.

Greg.

[skip100]

Just btw, I'm actually giving the job to a performance workshop that I haven't even bothered mentioning yet. They also got it right from the beginning, and they have been very helpful and POSITIVE the whole time.

Greg.

[dogsballs]

not an uncommon experience unfortunately.

i had a transmission specialist swear blind my auto had this and this parts, until i said i pulled it apart myself. does get annoying though.

definitely go the LSD. i think they call it a centre as it doesn't have the axles. relatively straight forward plug and play (with VT-VZ), admit i haven't played with VE's much.

[skip100]

Being a commercial driver, I was especially concerned about putting a non-LSD diff in, if the car is supposed to have LSD as standard. In my (layman) opinion, that would probably count as a modification, and modifications have to be approved by the authorities.

Given that non-LSD is standard, and given that I'm already familiar with how non-LSD handles (not fantastically, but it's more than adequate for a Hire Car), and given that I've already bought the unit, I'm settling for a non-LSD replacement.

Of course, upgrading to an LSD diff may also have counted as a mod, officially. If my car DID come with LSD as standard, would Holden's stability/traction software have been any different, or are they completely independent?

Greg.

[Northy]

The ESP software has nothing to do with the diff its an independent system.

[V8BEER]

Didnt someone write that a LSD diff is an option on your car, so if you got one it wouldnt be considered as a mod, as it was an option from the factory. As far as mods go, just tell your insurance company, like we all do :karate:

[skip100]

I'm not sure how "standard" the LSD option is for this car.

One dealer simply could not give me a price on an LSD diff. Eventually, when REALLY pressed, they came up with a price that was very close to the standard diff, and I was a bit suspicious.

I then called a second dealer, and they did give me a price, but said that "it doesn't just slot in - bits have to be changed". The price was about a grand more, which seemed more plausible to me. (however they didn't actually look it up - they just gave me a rough estimate. I had asked for the price of a standard diff first, and then asked how much the LSD was)

Further, the person who sold the used non-LSD to me said something in passing about the fact that his AFM engine was in AFM mode more often with the LSD diff that he had upgraded to. This implies a ratio change, to me. (correct?)

Now, I do have a VERY vague recollection of seeing something about an LSD option when I was originally buying the car, on a Holden web page.

So I'm not so sure at the moment how standard the LSD option is, however, it appears from this forum that it's a normal/ok thing to do fit.

Greg.
p.s The diff is being installed today. Fingers crossed. I went for a quick test drive with a proper diff specialist yesterday, as a last minute nth opinion, and he had trouble hearing the sound. He said the car's safe, and if it were him, he'd keep driving it to get as many ks from it as possible. He was by no means certain it was the diff. I'm ignoring his advice. :D (I then called my dealer and asked them whether they had put a stethoscope to the diff, and they said they had, so that's comforting)

[skip100]

The LSD option is indeed a standard option:
http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/caprice/v-series/features

I have no excuse. I am a cheapskate. ;^)

Greg.

[HRT 8]

All WM Caprice come standard from Holden with an open wheeler diff. (non LSD)
There is a factory fitted option to have an LSD fitted.

My advice to you is to just whack any good working diff into the thing. You say you do lots of K's as a hire car so the LSD isnt really going to assist you too much with the type of driving your doing. Hell, there hasnt been an issue thus far with your stock open wheeler other than a noise.

[skip100]

The diff had under a litre of oil in it, and there is lots of metal shavings in it.

[skip100]

The (semi)-new diff is in, and so far so good. ;^) The roads are wet, which makes more background sound, but I haven't heard the squeal yet. Phew.

I've now seen the oil for myself. "Shavings" is an exaggeration - I saw very small shiny flecks. The mechanic said it's normal to see one or two, but it's wrong for the whole base of the catch can to be covered with them. He also said the oil smells terrible. (it did to me too, but I have no idea what it's supposed to smell like). The new diff took 1.6L (minus a bit left in the filler tube)

The dealer said there's no fixed replacement interval for the oil - it is done only when required. I asked them whether they take oil samples, and they said yes.

Greg.

[skip100]

The sound has definitely gone. Thankyou again everyone - especially the little birdie that sold me the new diff. I have saved a small fortune.

The dealer may have been lax in the diff servicing, but at least they correctly diagnosed the problem. I am not deserting them. I will however ensure that the oil is replaced every 50,000km.

Greg.

[skip100]

This new diff is, I think, better than my old one EVER was.

Ever since I can remember, my car has made a faint, high pitched whine, at about 110+ kph. It would go away when coasting off the throttle, but it would occur for even the slightest touch of the throttle. I had always assumed this was normal. It wasn't loud enough to bother me.

This whine has gone away completely now.

Obviously, in hindsight, I should have queried the whine. It occurred well within warranty, possibly even when brand new. Bugger.

Greg.

[skip100]

Sorry - I was wrong. The sound at freeway speeds is still there. (goes away when I lift off the throttle). So I guess my diff was ok to begin with afterall.

Greg.